No habla english - too bad

[Yurt]

English-only tests, judge rules


More than 10,000 native Spanish speakers in Santa Cruz County will have to continue to take standardized tests in English, a San Francisco Judge ruled Monday.

Superior Court Judge Richard Kramer dismissed part of a lawsuit brought by eight school districts — including Pajaro Valley Unified — that demanded students be allowed to take the test in Spanish.

The lawsuit claims that testing students only in English does not accurately measure their abilities because they get many questions wrong simply because they don't understand English, which makes it harder to do word problems in math or show mastery of grammar.

Twenty-three schools in the county are under sanctions of No Child Left Behind because of low scores on standardized tests, including more than a dozen in Watsonville. Each of those schools, which could eventually be taken over by the state or a charter school organization, is in trouble due to the performance of non-native English speakers.

It's not clear if attorneys will appeal the ruling. But teachers insisted Monday that state tests need to be tailored to suit English-learners at different levels of English ability to gauge how well they're learning a new language and concepts in other subjects.

"If you're just looking at the test itself, all you're proving is that a student doesn't know English," said Lucia Villarreal, a kindergarten teacher at Starlight Elementary.

Press 1 (http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2007/May/22/local/stories/04local.htm)

[Hobbit]

Somebody call the whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance.

If your test scores are lower because of your inability to speak the language of the country you live in, then you need to work on that language, not bitch and moan about it.

[glockmail]

A rational ruling in California? :poke:

[Doniston]

It seems someone isn't thinking here. It is the duty of the School and/or state authorities to insure the education of the students, rather than promoting the political agenda of the officials. It is unfair to test that way.

[Mr. P]

It seems someone isn't thinking here. It is the duty of the School and/or state authorities to insure the education of the students, rather than promoting the political agenda of the officials. It is unfair to test that way.

So true! You should try an start doing it more.

[darin]

It seems someone isn't thinking here. It is the duty of the School and/or state authorities to insure the education of the students, rather than promoting the political agenda of the officials. It is unfair to test that way.

To ENSURE the education of the students, Schools need to INSIST fockers learn to speak English. :)

[Hobbit]

It seems someone isn't thinking here. It is the duty of the School and/or state authorities to insure the education of the students, rather than promoting the political agenda of the officials. It is unfair to test that way.

The purpose of the schools is to prepare students to enter the workforce, and it doesn't matter if you can do quantum physics in your head; if you can't speak English, the only kind of jobs you'll be getting in America are manual labor jobs.

[Joan]

I don't know about other school systems, but the ones around here start spanish classes in kindegarten. We even have a couple of towns (where there are mostly spanish people, who teach all day in spanish. When I was young, we had a little german girl in out class who knew not one word of English, we all helped her, and by the end of that year, she was speaking fluent English!!

[Monkeybone]

I don't know about other school systems, but the ones around here start spanish classes in kindegarten. We even have a couple of towns (where there are mostly spanish people, who teach all day in spanish. When I was young, we had a little german girl in out class who knew not one word of English, we all helped her, and by the end of that year, she was speaking fluent English!!

that's because instead of helping them, we just cater to them

[Joe Steel]

It seems someone isn't thinking here. It is the duty of the School and/or state authorities to insure the education of the students, rather than promoting the political agenda of the officials. It is unfair to test that way.

Not to mention short-sighted. Ignorance doesn't do anyone any good. You're right. The schools should be concentrating on education not politics.

[Mr. P]

Not to mention short-sighted. Ignorance doesn't do anyone any good. You're right. The schools should be concentrating on education not politics.

As I recall English was part of the curriculum.

[glockmail]

It seems someone isn't thinking here. It is the duty of the School and/or state authorities to insure the education of the students, rather than promoting the political agenda of the officials. It is unfair to test that way.

You should look into the state constitution that requires this of itself, and I'm sure that you will find that it was written in engish. :laugh2:

[glockmail]

Not to mention short-sighted. Ignorance doesn't do anyone any good. You're right. The schools should be concentrating on education not politics. A better argument is that it is political pandering not to teach them english.

[Monkeybone]

if it wouldn't turn some away and what not, i would say that they have to pass an english/english comprehension class/test to even get into school

[Mr. P]

if it wouldn't turn some away and what not, i would say that they have to pass an english/english comprehension class/test to even get into school

Works for me. I think that's a good idea.

[Doniston]

To ENSURE the education of the students, Schools need to INSIST fockers learn to speak English. :) I fully agree, but they should be tested in english only AFTER they have learned English.

h.

[Doniston]

You should look into the state constitution that requires this of itself, and I'm sure that you will find that it was written in engish. :laugh2: OF course, as it well should. what does that have to do with testing students in a way that they get a fair shake?

[glockmail]

OF course, as it well should. what does that have to do with testing students in a way that they get a fair shake? Its not up the State to be fair. Its role is to treat everyone the same.

[Doniston]

Its not up the State to be fair. Its role is to treat everyone the same. You treat a kindergartener the same as a high school student? The kindergardener may well have a better command of English. I think that pretty much destoys your point.

[Hugh Lincoln]

It seems someone isn't thinking here. It is the duty of the School and/or state authorities to insure the education of the students, rather than promoting the political agenda of the officials. It is unfair to test that way.

I think the political agenda is in demanding America switch to Spanish, hombre.

[Yurt]

A rational ruling in California? :poke:

LOL and from santa cruz :dance:

[Yurt]

It seems someone isn't thinking here. It is the duty of the School and/or state authorities to insure the education of the students, rather than promoting the political agenda of the officials. It is unfair to test that way.


I'm not a priest, I don't need your confession....

EDUCATION in an english country. It is NOT a political agenda. Did you know that in order to become a US citizen you MUST know some english, enough to pass a test. I know, my canadian wife just went through hers. The guy said he had to do it, notwithstanding her chemistry degree from a US college. He was cool though.

Why is it you need to pass an english test to become a citizen, but yet you have problem with this?

[Yurt]

I fully agree, but they should be tested in english only AFTER they have learned English.

h.

Huh, we let you post here... :laugh2:

[Yurt]

What fascinates me is the view count ratio compared to the post count. Normally not a big thing, but in this case, it seems only Mr. Donistan, the apparent lib on this issue, has the guts to reply.

So, one lib has replied?


It was a liberal judge in santa cruz....


Interesting, given libs thoughts on immigration and whatnot

[Doniston]

I'm not a priest, I don't need your confession.... I don't understand this at all.


EDUCATION in an english country. It is NOT a political agenda. Did you know that in order to become a US citizen you MUST know some english, enough to pass a test. I know, my canadian wife just went through hers. The guy said he had to do it, notwithstanding her chemistry degree from a US college. He was cool though.

Why is it you need to pass an english test to become a citizen, but yet you have problem with this? I have a problem with this because that is the place to learn english, but also, to be treated fairly in the mean time.

[Doniston]

Huh, we let you post here... :laugh2: a rather snide and inane statement, but in any event, who is this "WE" you speak of??? You have some clout here????

[Dilloduck]

I don't understand this at all.

I have a problem with this because that is the place to learn english, but also, to be treated fairly in the mean time.

Treated fairly ? :laugh2:

[Doniston]

What fascinates me is the view count ratio compared to the post count. Normally not a big thing, but in this case, it seems only Mr. Donistan, the apparent lib on this issue, has the guts to reply.

So, one lib has replied?


It was a liberal judge in santa cruz....


Interesting, given libs thoughts on immigration and whatnot Hm, are you suggesting that only Libs are fair. and the rest of you would just hold them down??? Well, perhaps so.

[Yurt]

I don't understand this at all.

I have a problem with this because that is the place to learn english, but also, to be treated fairly in the mean time.

Thats it Doniston. This is the place to "learn" English. If we have separate tests, the will and determination to learn english will fade, as it is doing before your eyes. If your avi is you, as you say, then you know that folks coming in 50 or so years ago, did not make this crap protest or lawsuit. For, if you came to this ENGLISH speaking country to get a BETTER life, ahead or whatnot, you had better know the language. You know this. What are you really saying?

Doniston, think this through.

A computer programmer needs to learn the language, C++, Visual, whatnot, to get "into" his "country/field". These people are coming to an english speaking country, they KNOW it. They choose to come here. Why??

Doniston, why? Because the english speaking country offers a better way of life.

Tell me, does the Mexican country they come from offer the reciprocal?

[glockmail]

You treat a kindergartener the same as a high school student? The kindergardener may well have a better command of English. I think that pretty much destoys your point. Nice try at twisting my argument. No one here fell for it.

[glockmail]

I think the political agenda is in demanding America switch to Spanish, hombre.

I have a freind who is having his 16 yo son move from Germany to NC, and can't speak english. He's planning on re-doing his 10 grade in HS so he can immerse in the culture and learn the language.

[Nukeman]

It has been proven time and time again that the quickest way to learn another language is to have total immersion. If we continue to give test in everyone native language than we are in actuality hidering thier leanrnig process

[Doniston]

It has been proven time and time again that the quickest way to learn another language is to have total immersion. If we continue to give test in everyone native language than we are in actuality hidering thier leanrnig process and if you don't give the test in a language the student can understand, then that student is at a further disadvantange to the other students, (lower scores, etc)which can effect his or her entire life.

[Monkeybone]

and if you don't give the test in a language the student can understand, then that student is at a further disadvantange to the other students, (lower scores, etc)which can effect his or her entire life.

no, they can repeat a grade or they need specail classes to learn english, cause if they dont attempt to learn it how will that help them later in life? cost the rest of use extra money to have state hired translators, sort of like now, how we have ESL ppl in schools? this isn't like they have a learning disablity or somethhing, this is something that can be helped with, and you don't help them by doing this. they whole thing isn't about the test, it is about that they should learn english. and to repsond ahead of time, they should learn english since this is an English speaking country.

[glockmail]

and if you don't give the test in a language the student can understand, then that student is at a further disadvantange to the other students, (lower scores, etc)which can effect his or her entire life.


If they don't learn english not only will their entire lives be adversely affected but US society will be as well. :slap:

[Doniston]

no, they can repeat a grade or they need specail classes to learn english, cause if they dont attempt to learn it how will that help them later in life? cost the rest of use extra money to have state hired translators, sort of like now, how we have ESL ppl in schools? this isn't like they have a learning disablity or somethhing, this is something that can be helped with, and you don't help them by doing this. they whole thing isn't about the test, it is about that they should learn english. and to repsond ahead of time, they should learn english since this is an English speaking country. Ah, but it "IS" about taking the test. You suggest they can repeat a grade or take extra classes. Are you suggesting that either of these choices is NOT a disadvantage to the student???

[Doniston]

If they don't learn english not only will their entire lives be adversely affected but US society will be as well. :slap: I fully agree, but this is about taking a test Here and NOW. Not somewhere down the road a peice.

[glockmail]

I fully agree, but this is about taking a test Here and NOW. Not somewhere down the road a peice. Then don't start them down the wrong fork in the road, because that is exactly what this policy does.

It used to be that if someone moved fom another culture they would anticipate spending at least the first year shovelling shit while learning the language and culture. My gradfather did that and so did millions of others. Now they want a free ride and have the rest of us change our culture to suit them. That ain't right.

[Pale Rider]

Like Tom Tancredo said last night in the debates... "we'll know when the mexicans have all assimilated when we no longer have to press 1 for English."

Giving an "English" test in "spanish." What's wrong with that picture? If you can't read or write English, then you shouldn't be in an English speaking school period. You should be taking English lessons from a tutor until you speak and read English well enough to go to an English speaking school. Otherwise, stay in your own country and keep speaking that language. We speak English in America. Learn it before you come if you plan to stay.

[glockmail]

Like Tom Tancredo said last night in the debates... "we'll know when the mexicans have all assimilated when we no longer have to press 1 for English."

Giving an "English" test in "spanish." What's wrong with that picture? If you can't read or write English, then you shouldn't be in an English speaking school period. You should be taking English lessons from a tutor until you speak and read English well enough to go to an English speaking school. Otherwise, stay in your own country and keep speaking that language. We speak English in America. Learn it before you come if you plan to stay.

I think the best way is to take a basic english class the first year while you are in regular classes for math and social studies and all. It is much easier to learn a language through total immersion. Figger you'll flunk most of the other courses, and then you simply take them over again the next year. In year two most people are proficient enough to do well, then can take more advanced english classes, like readin' and rightin'.

That's wat I'm encouraging my friend's son to do. He's moving over from Germany.

[Yurt]

Ah, but it "IS" about taking the test. You suggest they can repeat a grade or take extra classes. Are you suggesting that either of these choices is NOT a disadvantage to the student???

Do you believe that we should have a test for every language of every immigrant? Or is it just one particular language?

[Doniston]

Then don't start them down the wrong fork in the road, because that is exactly what this policy does.

It used to be that if someone moved fom another culture they would anticipate spending at least the first year shovelling shit while learning the language and culture. My gradfather did that and so did millions of others. Now they want a free ride and have the rest of us change our culture to suit them. That ain't right. I agree when referring to adults, but Kids??? so don't send them to school until they learn English????

[Doniston]

Do you believe that we should have a test for every language of every immigrant? Or is it just one particular language? It is a good question, and no. but at the same time I don't think kids should be subjected to a test they are destined to do poorly in.

[Yurt]

It is a good question, and no. but at the same time I don't think kids should be subjected to a test they are destined to do poorly in.

Thank you for the props on the question. However, You have defeated your entire argument then.

You have argued vigoriously for these kids "right" to have the test in spanish, yet, now you say, you do not support this right for others who do not speak spanish.

Doniston, they are not "subjected" to a test, they willingly take the test. They willingly come to this country. No one is subjecting anyone here.

You don't support that every immigrant that comes here should have a test in his or her language (we are cool with that) yet you somehow are holding fast to this idea that we are "subjugating" people to these ethereal tests you speak of. No one Doniston is forced to take the test, no one.

[glockmail]

I agree when referring to adults, but Kids??? so don't send them to school until they learn English????


Especially kids. They pick up a new language/ culture mucho quicko than old folks.

[Doniston]

Thank you for the props on the question. However, You have defeated your entire argument then.

You have argued vigoriously for these kids "right" to have the test in spanish, yet, now you say, you do not support this right for others who do not speak spanish.

Doniston, they are not "subjected" to a test, they willingly take the test. They willingly come to this country. No one is subjecting anyone here.

You don't support that every immigrant that comes here should have a test in his or her language (we are cool with that) yet you somehow are holding fast to this idea that we are "subjugating" people to these ethereal tests you speak of. No one Doniston is forced to take the test, no one.
Come on, try not to twist thing around. That is a stupid approach. I am opposed to kids having to take a test that they wil do poorly on. If they are not profucient in english they should not be taking the test in english. that is all I was saying.. The rest is what you added.

[Monkeybone]

but if they can't do just a test, how are they doing in the rest of school? and earlier, no it is not a disadvantage, they get to retake and learn it to the level of everyone else in the class. and i am also saying that they should have an extra class, even if they have to stay after school, that immeres them in nothing but english. and they get evaled on that. the main thing, is that we need to basically make them learn english, not just give them a reason no to make an effort to because, hey, everyone will make exceptions for us. that happen anywhere else? no, we have to learn the langauge

[Doniston]

but if they can't do just a test, how are they doing in the rest of school? and earlier, no it is not a disadvantage, they get to retake and learn it to the level of everyone else in the class. and i am also saying that they should have an extra class, even if they have to stay after school, that immeres them in nothing but english. and they get evaled on that. the main thing, is that we need to basically make them learn english, not just give them a reason no to make an effort to because, hey, everyone will make exceptions for us. that happen anywhere else? no, we have to learn the langauge

This isn't "anywhere else" Sorry, I disagree It is definitely a disadvantage to the students.

[Yurt]

This isn't "anywhere else" Sorry, I disagree It is definitely a disadvantage to the students.

Should we have tests in arabic? Japanese?

yes or no and reasons...

[nevadamedic]

They need to be required to learn and speak English fluently to graduate period. This is why there is so many American-Mexican problems because we dont understand them and they dont take time time or effort to understand us but expect us to cater to them and adjust our laws to benefit them.

[Doniston]

They need to be required to learn and speak English fluently to graduate period. This is why there is so many American-Mexican problems because we dont understand them and they dont take time time or effort to understand us but expect us to cater to them and adjust our laws to benefit them. that is true, but baby steps first.

[Doniston]

Should we have tests in arabic? Japanese?

yes or no and reasons... You asked this before and I answered it. what is this, and echo chamber?

[Monkeybone]

that is true, but baby steps first.

then those baby steps should start while they are in school or before they come to school in learning the language. you don't give them any reason to learn if you just translate everything.

[Nukeman]

then those baby steps should start while they are in school or before they come to school in learning the language. you don't give them any reason to learn if you just translate everything.

Exactly.....:clap::clap:

[nevadamedic]

then those baby steps should start while they are in school or before they come to school in learning the language. you don't give them any reason to learn if you just translate everything.

But thats America, make it easier on the minorities then everyone else.

[Pale Rider]

that is true, but baby steps first.

You need some baby steps yourself. You spell like shit, and your grammar/sentence structure is in the toilet. Did you ever finish junior high yourself?

Try this old man... http://toolbar.google.com/T4/index_pack.html?utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-ha-na-us-syn&utm_medium=ha&utm_term=toolbar%20google&tbbrand=GZAZ.... there's a spell checker on that toolbar. You need it.

[nevadamedic]

You need some baby steps yourself. You spell like shit, and your grammar/sentence structure is in the toilet. Did you ever finish junior high yourself?

Try this old man... http://toolbar.googeedle.com/T4/index_pack.html?utm_campaign=en&utm_source=en-ha-na-us-syn&utm_medium=ha&utm_term=toolbar%20google&tbbrand=GZAZ.... there's a spell checker on that toolbar. You need it.

We really need to get you a woman to help release some of that bottled up frusteration :laugh2:

[Pale Rider]

We really need to get you a woman to help release some of that bottled up frusteration :laugh2:

The only thing I find frustrating in my life is why these liberals are so fucked in the head.

[nevadamedic]

The only thing I find frustrating in my life is why these liberals are so fucked in the head.

Yea well theres nothing we can do about it, lord knows people have tried to talk some sense into them it never works.

[Pale Rider]

Yea well theres nothing we can do about it, lord knows people have tried to talk some sense into them it never works.

Yeah there's something we can do about it... KEEP OPOSING THEM... everyday, with everything you have. Lord knows if the liberals took over everything, our country would be GONE in a matter of months.

[Yurt]

You asked this before and I answered it. what is this, and echo chamber?

Give reasons, I said reasons, you gave no reasons why you allow it for only spanish speaking immigrants....

[Pale Rider]

Give reasons, I said reasons, you gave no reasons why you allow it for only spanish speaking immigrants....

You're asking a lot from this one monkey, organ grinding show. :laugh2: