Are Catholics Christians?

[BillyBob]

We were having an interesting, pleasant discussion about this in another thread then it mysteriously got closed. Too bad, catholicism wasn't holding up very well under scrutiny. My favorite moment was when a catholic poster whined about Protestant Crystal Palace churches...then I posted pics of the Vatican. Kinda put an end to that attempt to defame real Christians and portray them as money grabbers.

Personally, I don't care what religion you are. As long as you're not a muslim. I hate muslims. Every one of them. Muslims are evil, catholics are mostly just misguided.

[tailfins]

For the most part I agree with you, however substituting occultists for Muslim.

[logroller]

What is a "real Christian"? It seems by some standards it is Christ alone. To me, a Christian is one who accepts that Christ died for one's sins, and that's it. Whatever pissing match someone wishes to engage in over how another is more or less Christian than anyone else is assuredly not being very true to Christ's lessons IMHO.

[Marcus Aurelius]

you got a thread closed, and decided the best course of action was to start another thread, essentially trying to bypass moderation?
Dumb ass.

[tailfins]

you got a thread closed, and decided the best course of action was to start another thread, essentially trying to bypass moderation?
Dumb ass.

Exhibit A above of a pushy usurper. You don't know for sure it was he who got the thread closed. You :mooning:ume too much.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Exhibit A above of a pushy usurper. You don't know for sure it was he who got the thread closed. You :mooning:ume too much.

you know very well... the first one to bitch about moderation is usually the person who caused the moderation.:laugh:

[BillyBob]

For the most part I agree with you, however substituting occultists for Muslim.


That's fine. Do you consider catholics to be occultists?

[fj1200]

you know very well... the first one to bitch about moderation is usually the person who caused the moderation.:laugh:

Ah, the he who smelt it defense. :laugh:

As for the OP? Yes.

[tailfins]

That's fine. Do you consider catholics to be occultists?

I don't think most are.

[Thunderknuckles]

There's only one requirement to be Christian and that is you believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for your salvation. This is said many times in the New Testament. Hence, Catholics are Christians by this definition.

[tailfins]

There's only one requirement to be Christian and that is you believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for your salvation. This is said many times in the New Testament. Hence, Catholics are Christians by this definition.

Once they confess sins to a priest they are not relying solely on Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Once they confess sins to a priest they are not relying solely on Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.

Jesus Himself gave his original followers (and by default, their followers) power to forgive sins.

[revelarts]

Are Catholics Christian is a terrible question.

if you were serious and not just trying to piss on Catholics a legit question might be:
What do protestant and Catholics still debate.

Anyone can point to various Catholic and Protestant abuses of the Faith.
But what does each positively promote?
What are the practices and beliefs they consider to be essential/primary to Christianity?

As log said faith in Christ is the main thing, I'm not ready to claim i know the heart of any Catholics or any Baptist or anyone else frankly.

however if someone claims it's Christ PLUS the sacraments and membership/baptism in THE Church and good works, then i might wonder if they are really trusting in Christ or in all that other stuff.
Because it's my understanding that it's faith in Christ Alone that makes one a Christian, and brings us into God's presence in heaven.

I don't understand the out of the gate attitude of trying to diss all Catholics when many are really reaching toward God with some serious passion.
God knows there's plenty of protestants that do weird crap too. not to mention the theologically liberal of both groups that do not believe in a literal resurrection and the like.

But If many Catholics are off base in general, then Jesus's words "you are not far from the kingdom of God" come to my mind.
Not "your not a christian". that just sounds kinda asinine to me.

[Thunderknuckles]

Once they confess sins to a priest they are not relying solely on Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.
I am not saying Catholics don't do some things that I find in contrast to the message of Jesus as it is written in the Bible. However, Catholics still meet the basic requirement to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven. Who you confess a sin to is not part of those requirements.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Are Catholics Christian is a terrible question.

if you were serious and not just trying to piss on Catholics a legit question might be:
What do protestant and Catholics still debate.

Anyone can point to various Catholic and Protestant abuses of the Faith.
But what does each positively promote?
What are the practices and beliefs they consider to be essential/primary to Christianity?

As log said faith in Christ is the main thing, I'm not ready to claim i know the heart of any Catholics or any Baptist or anyone else frankly.

however if someone claims it's Christ PLUS the sacraments and membership/baptism in THE Church and good works, then i might wonder if they are really trusting in Christ or in all that other stuff.
Because it's my understanding that it's faith in Christ Alone that makes one a Christian, and brings us into God's presence in heaven.

I don't understand the out of the gate attitude of trying to diss all Catholics when many are really reaching toward God with some serious passion.
God knows there's plenty of protestants that do weird crap too. not to mention the theologically liberal of both groups that do not believe in a literal resurrection and the like.

But If many Catholics are off base in general, then Jesus's words "you are not far from the kingdom of God" come to my mind.
Not "your not a christian". that just sounds kinda asinine to me.

There is a great scene in Zeffirelli's 'Jesus of Nazareth', where Jesus scolds the pharisees for 'bowing to the letter of the law while violating the heart of the law' that springs to mind here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23vBzocKINU

Side note to Jahil... check out 2:25 of the above video to see what Jesus thinks about the Father and the Son being one person.

[BillyBob]

Jesus Himself gave his original followers (and by default, their followers) power to forgive sins.


What Scripture is that?

[BillyBob]

I don't think most are.

I don't think most common practitioners are, but I wonder about the clergy.

[BillyBob]

There's only one requirement to be Christian and that is you believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for your salvation. This is said many times in the New Testament. Hence, Catholics are Christians by this definition.


If Jesus died on the Cross to absolve us of our sins, then there is no need for a Catholic Priest to deliver absolution from them. And if you believe there is a need for the Priest's absolution, then you do not truly believe that Jesus died for your sins. There is no need for a priest to be an intercessory between you and God, despite the catholic church's declaration to the contrary.

[jimnyc]

If Jesus died on the Cross to absolve us of our sins, then there is no need for a Catholic Priest to deliver absolution from them. And if you believe there is a need for the Priest's absolution, then you do not truly believe that Jesus died for your sins. There is no need for a priest to be an intercessory between you and God, despite the catholic church's declaration to the contrary.

Their really isn't a need to confess to a priest - many feel that we should never confess to "man". But to do so to a priest, does not in any way mean that you don't believe Jesus died for your sins. Some just learned differently and probably actually enjoy confessing to a priest. And you're also right in the fact that we really don't need a go between. This is generally within the Roman Catholic Church.

I am Catholic, I go to a Catholic Church, I believe Jesus died for my sins. I fully believe I can speak my sins via prayer if I want to, without seeing a priest. I don't think I have to confess to "man". But I do. And that doesn't mean I don't believe Jesus died for my sins.

[jimnyc]

Why Do Catholics Practice Confession of Sins to a Priest?
A Protestant Christian friend of mine wanted to know why Catholics confess sins to a priest rather than straight to God. He quoted 1 Tm 2:5 from the Bible to explain that Christ is the one true mediator between God and man. He therefore felt that the Church did not have the authority to require confession of sins to a mediator (a priest). Here my response to his question.

Well it's a fair question, and is certainly a loaded one. And it's certainly one that I have thought about myself. What it comes down to is that Christ is the one true mediator between God and man. But how he accomplishes the mediation is his choice. Upon ascending into heaven Christ instituted a church that would be his earthly guide for all nations. A church that would be protected and guided by the Holy Spirit, to preserve his Christian truths and guide all men to Jesus for their salvation. Essentially, this is where the Catholic Church came from. It was founded on Peter, the first of the popes. In the gospel of Matthew, Jesus tells Simon after his confession of faith:

"Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." --Matthew 16:17-19

Basically, in this passage Jesus does a curious thing. He changes Simon's name to Peter. Peter translated into Aramaic (the language of Jesus and his apostles) is Kepha, or rock. So what Jesus did was say that Peter is the rock. Not just any rock, but the rock on which he will build his church. Jesus also says that the church would be infallible and would preserve his truths when he says "the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it..." (knowing the truth of Christianity certainly is necessary to be saved). He also gives Peter binding and loosing powers as well as the keys of heaven (strong symbols of authority) thus giving Peter ultimate teaching authority over the church. In order to preserve this authority and give the gift of teaching to the church, it had to be preserved from error in the future. This is why the successors of Peter have always been the leaders of the Church.

True ability to interpret scripture and preserve the teachings of Christ are only fully possible within the Catholic Church. This is evidenced by the wide array of Protestantism, which hold a large amount of conflicting teachings (an example is the necessity of Baptism) even though all claim to be interpreting the Bible correctly. Although much truth exists in other Christian religions, the only infallible truth lies within the Bible and the Traditions of the Catholic Church. If Christ had not established a teaching, living, apostolic church then how could we properly understand the doctrines of the Bible? Note that 2 Peter 1:20 says "know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation". And even the Ethiopian eunuch on his way to Damascus while trying to interpret scripture asks for Philip's help (who is ordained as a priest in Acts 6:5). "Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" He replied "How can I unless someone instructs me?" (Acts 8:30-31) Thus the church has the authority to properly teach the doctrines of faith for our salvation. This is why I am Catholic. Because without the Church I can't be sure that Christ's teachings are being properly preserved. If you read the Father's of the Church their writings correlate with Catholic views on a ministerial priesthood, the sacraments and many other Catholic doctrines. The first Christians themselves were Catholics. Acts 6:1-6 shows the establishment of the priesthood under the apostles of the Church.

In the end, it is the divinely ordained teaching authority of the Church that assures me of the validity and necessity of the Christian Sacraments; especially that of Confession. The sacrament of reconcilliation (confession), the Church teaches, is the normative, necessary means by which a Christian receives the forgiveness of God. The efficacy of confession is derived from Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross, where he served as the divine substitute for our transgressions. Not only does the Church teach the need of regular confession, but the Bible also records Christ’s institution of the sacrament following his resurrection from the dead when he first appeared to the assembly of apostles (John 20:19-23):

On the evening of the first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This moment, when Jesus breathed on his apostles, constituted both the institution of the Catholic ministerial priesthood and the sacrament of confession. Christ gave his first priests, the apostles, the authority to forgive and retain sins. It was his intention that all sin be forgiven though the Church by aural confession of sins to the priests. We should realize that in Holy Scripture God breathed on man only twice: once when he breathed life into the clay of earth to create man (Genesis 2:7) and the second time when he breathed the life of grace into his Church. Both instances were that of an intimate, riveting moment between God and man. It is clear that the ability to forgive and retain sin given to the apostles, requires that each of us (even to this day) confess our sins to the priests of the Church so that our sins can be forgiven or retained.

http://www.saintaquinas.com/confess_essay.html

[jimnyc]

The first Christians went to Jesus to confess their sins, and he told them to go to a priest; Christ himself determined that sins could be forgiven through human intermediaries almost 2,000 years ago(John 20:21-23). Today's modern Catholics honor that ancient and timeless tradition

So part tradition too?

http://suite101.com/article/why-do-catholics-confess-their-sins-to-a-priest-a63295

[BillyBob]

Their really isn't a need to confess to a priest - many feel that we should never confess to "man". But to do so to a priest, does not in any way mean that you don't believe Jesus died for your sins. Some just learned differently and probably actually enjoy confessing to a priest. And you're also right in the fact that we really don't need a go between. This is generally within the Roman Catholic Church.

I am Catholic, I go to a Catholic Church, I believe Jesus died for my sins. I fully believe I can speak my sins via prayer if I want to, without seeing a priest. I don't think I have to confess to "man". But I do. And that doesn't mean I don't believe Jesus died for my sins.


Do you confess to a Priest for absolution and do penance [on his demand] in order to obtain it?

[jimnyc]

Do you confess to a Priest for absolution and do penance [on his demand] in order to obtain it?

Mostly to make myself feel better, as I know it's not necessary. It makes me feel good to speak to a priest, to unload my thoughts, and I have no issue with the penance, which is generally just reading verses anyway. I don't believe I need to do any of the above to be absolved, but I do.

Let's put it this way - what do you think a priest would say if you asked him that? If you asked him if it was mandatory to go through him? I sat down with my priest back in September, and even did my confession outside the actual Church, cause I chose to. But even he explained that anytime I wanted to talk to God, to just talk to him, that I need not be in church or talking to a priest.

[jimnyc]

Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest? Isn’t God the one who forgives us?

Of course, God is the one who alone can and does forgive us our sins, but God in His mysterious plan for us from the beginning chose to show His love, including His forgiving love, through the Church.

Remember the healing of the paralytic by Jesus and the reaction of the crowd? First, Jesus said, "Your sins are forgiven. "Then He told him to rise and walk. The reaction of the leaders to the first statement was: "He has blasphemed. Only God can forgive sins." The response of the people to the whole experience was different. They praised God for giving such authority to men.

The emphasis of the Bible is the fact that Jesus forgave sins as the Son of Man, as one sent by God. This power to forgive sins Jesus passed on to the Apostles. The words are from John’s Gospel (John 20:21ff.): "Peace be with you,’ Jesus said again, ‘As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Then He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them: if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

But how can one know what sins to forgive or what sins to retain unless these are made known; that means unless they are confessed? This experience of confession of sins to a priest to receive the sign of God’s healing forgiveness is called by the Church the Sacrament of Penance or the Sacrament of Reconciliation. We are once more made one with God. Jesus intended this power to be exercised not only by the Apostles, but also by their successors for the good of sinners.

In Matthew, chapter twenty eight, we read: "Full authority has been given to me both in Heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you and know that I am with you always until the end of the world." Now, as Catholics, we believe that by ordination, a priest is given as much power to minister God’s healing forgiveness as the Apostles themselves possessed.

Rest here - http://live.lcdiocese.org/why-catholic/89-why-do-catholics-confess-their-sins-to-a-priest.html

[BillyBob]

Why do Catholics confess their sins to a priest? Isn’t God the one who forgives us?

Of course, God is the one who alone can and does forgive us our sins, but God in His mysterious plan for us from the beginning chose to show His love, including His forgiving love, through the Church.

Remember the healing of the paralytic by Jesus and the reaction of the crowd? First, Jesus said, "Your sins are forgiven. "Then He told him to rise and walk. The reaction of the leaders to the first statement was: "He has blasphemed. Only God can forgive sins." The response of the people to the whole experience was different. They praised God for giving such authority to men.

The emphasis of the Bible is the fact that Jesus forgave sins as the Son of Man, as one sent by God. This power to forgive sins Jesus passed on to the Apostles. The words are from John’s Gospel (John 20:21ff.): "Peace be with you,’ Jesus said again, ‘As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Then He breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them: if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

But how can one know what sins to forgive or what sins to retain unless these are made known; that means unless they are confessed? This experience of confession of sins to a priest to receive the sign of God’s healing forgiveness is called by the Church the Sacrament of Penance or the Sacrament of Reconciliation. We are once more made one with God. Jesus intended this power to be exercised not only by the Apostles, but also by their successors for the good of sinners.

In Matthew, chapter twenty eight, we read: "Full authority has been given to me both in Heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you and know that I am with you always until the end of the world." Now, as Catholics, we believe that by ordination, a priest is given as much power to minister God’s healing forgiveness as the Apostles themselves possessed.

Rest here - http://live.lcdiocese.org/why-catholic/89-why-do-catholics-confess-their-sins-to-a-priest.html


All those things happened before the Cross.

[Kathianne]

Do you confess to a Priest for absolution and do penance [on his demand] in order to obtain it?

You do a good imitation of an IRS auditor from all reports. You and most Protestants of a certain ilk fail to account for your own infallibility, having so much glee gained from attacking others. Indeed, you claim to do so in God's name, since I guess you believe God needs your wisdom bestowed upon your fellow lessors?

Oh I'm not one to say that the Church hasn't had, doesn't have its faults, but that is an institution, not the individuals. Those like you, believe you 'see' who's going to realize the kingdom of God, you just haven't the right.

Not on others practices, beliefs, etc. Oh, you may pray for them, that would be Christian, indeed you may and should discuss as Christ would when the opportunity presents itself. Judge though? Watch you own eye.

A few passages that you may believe or maybe not, after you've your own wisdom that has little to do with this sort of advice:

"Judge not lest you be judged."
Matthew 7:1-3
"Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor??"

James 4:11-12

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?"

Romans 2:1-3

[Robert A Whit]

You do a good imitation of an IRS auditor from all reports. You and most Protestants of a certain ilk fail to account for your own infallibility, having so much glee gained from attacking others. Indeed, you claim to do so in God's name, since I guess you believe God needs your wisdom bestowed upon your fellow lessors?

Oh I'm not one to say that the Church hasn't had, doesn't have its faults, but that is an institution, not the individuals. Those like you, believe you 'see' who's going to realize the kingdom of God, you just haven't the right.

Not on others practices, beliefs, etc. Oh, you may pray for them, that would be Christian, indeed you may and should discuss as Christ would when the opportunity presents itself. Judge though? Watch you own eye.

A few passages that you may believe or maybe not, after you've your own wisdom that has little to do with this sort of advice:

"Judge not lest you be judged."
Matthew 7:1-3


"Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor??"

James 4:11-12

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?"

Romans 2:1-3

All Billybob did is ask a question.

Why did you you judge the man?

[tailfins]

You do a good imitation of an IRS auditor from all reports. You and most Protestants of a certain ilk fail to account for your own infallibility, having so much glee gained from attacking others. Indeed, you claim to do so in God's name, since I guess you believe God needs your wisdom bestowed upon your fellow lessors?

Oh I'm not one to say that the Church hasn't had, doesn't have its faults, but that is an institution, not the individuals. Those like you, believe you 'see' who's going to realize the kingdom of God, you just haven't the right.

Not on others practices, beliefs, etc. Oh, you may pray for them, that would be Christian, indeed you may and should discuss as Christ would when the opportunity presents itself. Judge though? Watch you own eye.

A few passages that you may believe or maybe not, after you've your own wisdom that has little to do with this sort of advice:

"Judge not lest you be judged."
Matthew 7:1-3


"Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor??"

James 4:11-12

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?"

Romans 2:1-3

I like to keep the discussion to the mechanics of belief differences, even if I don't always succeed in doing that. Unless I'm teasing somebody in a friendly way, my intent isn't to deliberately incite rage.

[Marcus Aurelius]

What Scripture is that?

It was the word of Jesus, Himself.

Show me ion the scriptures where its says the Savior does NOT have the power to forgive sins, or pass that power on to His followers.

[jimnyc]

All Billybob did is ask a question.

Why did you you judge the man?

She posted scripture and is on topic, even if in disagreement with Bb. Please don't look for an issue with her when she didn't address you.

[BillyBob]

You do a good imitation of an IRS auditor from all reports.

I am not the topic of this thread.




You and most Protestants of a certain ilk

I have never claimed to be a Protestant, and why are you so bigoted against Protestants and their 'ilk'?



fail to account for your own infallibility,

Really? You deduced that from what exactly?




having so much glee gained from attacking others.

If I remember correctly, it was you who was attacking Protestants in that other thread. Did you forget that already?



Indeed, you claim to do so in God's name,

When have I ever done that? Link please.



since I guess you believe God needs your wisdom bestowed upon your fellow lessors?

Um, this is a discussion/debate forum. That's what people do here. Perhaps you should find a new hobby if it bothers you so much.




Oh I'm not one to say that the Church hasn't had, doesn't have its faults, but that is an institution, not the individuals. Those like you, believe you 'see' who's going to realize the kingdom of God, you just haven't the right.

Huh, I don't remember ever making such a claim.



Not on others practices, beliefs, etc. Oh, you may pray for them, that would be Christian, indeed you may and should discuss as Christ would when the opportunity presents itself. Judge though? Watch you own eye.

Says the person who angrily judges Protestants [and me, for that matter].



A few passages that you may believe or maybe not, after you've your own wisdom that has little to do with this sort of advice:

"Judge not lest you be judged."
Matthew 7:1-3


"Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor??"

James 4:11-12

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?"

Romans 2:1-3


I suggest you take those to heart.

Now, despite your little emotional outburst, I am still willing to discuss the crucial differences between catholicism and Christianity. Primarily the parts of catholicism which are not Biblical. Like, [since you brought up infallibility] the Pope's claim to that very thing. Really? Some humans are infallible? Is that in the Bible, too?

http://www.freewoodpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/popemobile.jpg

[Kathianne]

I like to keep the discussion to the mechanics of belief differences, even if I don't always succeed in doing that. Unless I'm teasing somebody in a friendly way, my intent isn't to deliberately incite rage.

See, you choose the posts you'll back if going to go walking and talking and trying to be 'Christian.' Rev follows that dictum. He tries to explain his beliefs and why. He's trying to follow Christ the best he knows, at least from those posts I've read.

I'm not as even keeled, I'll admit that. However, I don't think you'll find I've said that someone is going to find themselves in hell, because of anything they've said against any religion. Not even for declaring who's Christian and not. That's not in my job description, that's only in God's.

Hitch your star with haters, it's not my scorn to worry yourself about.

[Thunderknuckles]

What Scripture is that?
Billybob, the Catholic tradition of confession and the ability of "Man" to forgive sin is based on John 20:21-23
When Jesus rose from the dead and spoke to his disciples he said:

21: Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”
22: And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23: If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”


It's all side show anyway. Again, the primary requirement is to believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for our salvation.

[logroller]

Once they confess sins to a priest they are not relying solely on Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.
when one confesses, is it to the father or the Father? There are holy agents on this earth from whom we can receive guidance-- be it one's friends, family, their pastor, priest or pope.

[BillyBob]

It was the word of Jesus, Himself.

Really? Here's what you said:


Jesus Himself gave his original followers (and by default, their followers) power to forgive sins.

So please direct me to that Scripture, I am always willing to learn something new. :)





Show me ion the scriptures where its says the Savior does NOT have the power to forgive sins, or pass that power on to His followers.

Show me in the Scriptures where God does not think you're a dumbass.

[Thunderknuckles]

So please direct me to that Scripture, I am always willing to learn something new. :)

Look two posts up for the Scripture source.

[Kathianne]

I am not the topic of this thread.





I have never claimed to be a Protestant, and why are you so bigoted against Protestants and their 'ilk'?




Really? You deduced that from what exactly?




If I remember correctly, it was you who was attacking Protestants in that other thread. Did you forget that already?




When have I ever done that? Link please.




Um, this is a discussion/debate forum. That's what people do here. Perhaps you should find a new hobby if it bothers you so much.





Huh, I don't remember ever making such a claim.




Says the person who angrily judges Protestants [and me, for that matter].





I suggest you take those to heart.

Now, despite your little emotional outburst, I am still willing to discuss the crucial differences between catholicism and Christianity. Primarily the parts of catholicism which are not Biblical. Like, [since you brought up infallibility] the Pope's claim to that very thing. Really? Some humans are infallible? Is that in the Bible, too?

http://www.freewoodpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/popemobile.jpg

Actually much of what you are spinning are untruths, but never you mind about that. As for me and my practices unless you are considering a conversion to Catholicism, it's irrelevant. There are plenty of sites, some more reliable than others, that can teach one about the teachings of the Church.

'You and your ilk' refers to those that believe they know the one 'true way and teachings' based on literal biblical teachings and feel free to imply fire and brimstone for those that think evolution a superior theory to creationism and such topics.

They haven't room in their hearts or heads for those that can accommodate a Creator and other than literal.

I don't say God will condemn them, I just find them offensive and ignorant. When they 'attack' I tend to respond.

I also find it enlightening that so many Catholics are the first ones to bring up and condemn abuses in the Catholic Church, be it sexual or fiscal matters in the past 40 years or so. Indeed many refuse for good reasoning to by pass donations that aren't directly accounted for to works of mercy.

The haters on the other hand, use the sins of individuals to condemn the Church and all members of such. While often under the guise of 'saving' their living hatred is against all Christ's teachings. Yet, with Christ all things are possible and he sees into their hearts.

[BillyBob]

Actually much of what you are spinning are untruths, but never you mind about that. As for me and my practices unless you are considering a conversion to Catholicism, it's irrelevant. There are plenty of sites, some more reliable than others, that can teach one about the teachings of the Church.

I never stop studying. And no, I have no intention of becoming a Catholic, but thank your for your concern.




'You and your ilk' refers to those that believe they know the one 'true way and teachings' based on literal biblical teachings and feel free to imply fire and brimstone for those that think evolution a superior theory to creationism and such topics.

You really do talk out of your ass. I have never once mentioned evolution or fire and brimstone or hell or eternal suffering for anybody [although I would make an exception for muslims]. As far as I understand it, Jesus died for ALL humans [except perhaps the muslims].




They haven't room in their hearts or heads for those that can accommodate a Creator and other than literal.

I don't say God will condemn them, I just find them offensive and ignorant. When they 'attack' I tend to respond.

All you have done here is make up a bunch of falsehoods about them and then attack that which does not even exist. FACT. Is spreading falsehoods about others a Catholic thing? Because it certainly isn't a Christian virtue.

[jimnyc]

http://www.freewoodpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/popemobile.jpg

I'm curious why continually posting about what the Pope drives in, or about the expense of the Vatican. Neither is reflective of a typical Catholic's lifestyle. Even EVERY church (just about) that I have been in, they are ALL rather extravagant, especially when you look towards the altar and the sacraments and such. Generally all gold. The Bible in my Church is like 2 feet thick and also gold. Much are ancient artifacts too. I'm curious what you are specifically trying to point out with this?

[BillyBob]

Look two posts up for the Scripture source.


I appreciate that scriptural reference, but it does not answer MA's claim.

[BillyBob]

I'm curious why continually posting about what the Pope drives in, or about the expense of the Vatican. Neither is reflective of a typical Catholic's lifestyle. Even EVERY church (just about) that I have been in, they are ALL rather extravagant, especially when you look towards the altar and the sacraments and such. Generally all gold. The Bible in my Church is like 2 feet thick and also gold. Much are ancient artifacts too. I'm curious what you are specifically trying to point out with this?


That goes back to Kathianne's post in the thread that got closed. She implied that Protestants are indulgent opulent spenders and that catholics are frugal and non indulgent. I pointed out her error.

Go there if one wants, the Protestants are now the ones selling indulgences via TV, Cable, and radio. Don't forget the Crystal mega churches. KA

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?41119-Religious-freedom-is-for-ALL-religions&p=642952#post642952

[tailfins]

See, you choose the posts you'll back if going to go walking and talking and trying to be 'Christian.' Rev follows that dictum. He tries to explain his beliefs and why. He's trying to follow Christ the best he knows, at least from those posts I've read.

I'm not as even keeled, I'll admit that. However, I don't think you'll find I've said that someone is going to find themselves in hell, because of anything they've said against any religion. Not even for declaring who's Christian and not. That's not in my job description, that's only in God's.

Hitch your star with haters, it's not my scorn to worry yourself about.

Courtesy is a concept worth pursuing. If you think someone is hell-bound, pointing an angry finger in their face won't make them any less hell-bound. If it would make somebody feel good to hear for example that it's a good idea to fill their gas tank with water, I'm not going to tell them what they want to hear. If someone asks, I'm not going to lie to them.

[revelarts]

when one confesses, is it to the father or the Father? There are holy agents on this earth from whom we can receive guidance-- be it one's friends, family, their pastor, priest or pope.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

that's the best scriptural take on confession i know of.
But it does not mention it being for a special class only, preachers, elders or deacons. It seems to be a call for all believers to do it with/for each other from time to time.

If i can give my understanding on Peter being granted power to forgive sins.
John says Jesus breathed on ALL the disciples and gave them authority to remit sins. However in the following verses of that book and in all of the book of Acts and the rest of the New Testament there is not one example of Peter, or the other Apostles, forgiving any ones sins. Not one that i know of.
But there are plenty them giving calls for people to pray to God and believe in Jesus and their sins will be forgiven.

[jimnyc]

That goes back to Kathianne's post in the thread that got closed. She implied that Protestants are indulgent opulent spenders and that catholics are meek. I pointed out her error.

Go there if one wants, the Protestants are now the ones selling indulgences via TV, Cable, and radio. Don't forget the Crystal mega churches. KA

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?41119-Religious-freedom-is-for-ALL-religions&p=642952#post642952

Well, I think the Catholic church (the Vatican and many Churches) can be a bit excessive, but I don't see them "selling" on TV, Cable and radio, or selling many indulgences at all.

[Kathianne]

when one confesses, is it to the father or the Father? There are holy agents on this earth from whom we can receive guidance-- be it one's friends, family, their pastor, priest or pope.

While I fully believe at this point in my life, that discussing 'Confession' with non-Catholics or at least those willing to understand and not condemn us to hell, is a waste of my time, I'll respond as shortly as I can.

Confession requires a true examination of conscience. One must enter into not only an acknowledgment of wrongs, but recognize the harm created by those wrongs. One then orally assumes responsibility for those wrongs, requests forgiveness, seriously commits to avoid the same wrongs in the future. Penance may be prayers, but that doesn't equate to absolution. No, the absolution is incumbent upon righting or taking punishment for what has actually been done.

Thus for 'swearing' the penance might be prayers and thinking before cursing.
For hitting or teasing a younger sibling, prayers and asking they to play for a short period of time.
Murder? Going to the authorities and going through the legal system, prayers yes, asking the family for forgiveness also required.

Assumed from the get go the priest acts on the words of the penitent. Never being a God or a pretend stand in, they respond as human to human. It is incumbent on the penitent to be wholly truthful or the penance and restitution are for nothing. Thus, there's no assumption that a Mafia don that 'confesses' to several murders, asks for forgiveness, 'receives' priestly absolution, says his prayers, sends money to families of murdered and is no longer 'bothered' by them, finds himself ok with God. His 'confession' was a farce. He did not face the legal system, he bought off the families, all in a misguided idea of cleansing.

All parts have to be fulfilled, not "I'm ok now, time to do more business. Repeat."

[BillyBob]

Well, I think the Catholic church (the Vatican and many Churches) can be a bit excessive, but I don't see them "selling" on TV, Cable and radio, or selling many indulgences at all.

Here's Catholic TV, catholicism 24/7.

http://www.catholictv.com/



Look, I'm not the person who whined about expensive churches, tv broadcasts etc. That was Kathianne. I simply pointed out her hypocrisy.

[BillyBob]

I'm curious why continually posting about what the Pope drives in, or about the expense of the Vatican. Neither is reflective of a typical Catholic's lifestyle. Even EVERY church (just about) that I have been in, they are ALL rather extravagant, especially when you look towards the altar and the sacraments and such. Generally all gold. The Bible in my Church is like 2 feet thick and also gold. Much are ancient artifacts too.

The church I attend is held in a Martial Arts dojo. No alter, no extravagances, no gold. Just loving people worshipping the Lord.

[jimnyc]

Here's Catholic TV, catholicism 24/7.

http://www.catholictv.com/



Look, I'm not the person who whined about expensive churches, tv broadcasts etc. That was Kathianne. I simply pointed out her hypocrisy.

I never said they weren't on TV - but there's a HUGE difference between offering all things Catholic on TV - and selling stuff. What is this channel selling? Here's their mission, sounds reasonable to me:

Our Mission
We are America's Catholic Television Network.® Want to know more? You are in the right place!
The CatholicTV® Network is a beacon of Hope and a unique herald of the simple, yet profound Message of Jesus Christ, Who is made truly present among us in the Breaking of the Bread.
Utilizing powerful technology, we strive to connect People of Faith. Through relevant, inspiring and prayerful programming we educate, teaching the Wisdom of God in the Catholic Tradition, endeavoring to move people of all ages, cultures and attitudes toward the Fullness of Life.

[jimnyc]

I never said they weren't on TV - but there's a HUGE difference between offering all things Catholic on TV - and selling stuff. What is this channel selling? Here's their mission, sounds reasonable to me:

Our Mission
We are America's Catholic Television Network.® Want to know more? You are in the right place!
The CatholicTV® Network is a beacon of Hope and a unique herald of the simple, yet profound Message of Jesus Christ, Who is made truly present among us in the Breaking of the Bread.
Utilizing powerful technology, we strive to connect People of Faith. Through relevant, inspiring and prayerful programming we educate, teaching the Wisdom of God in the Catholic Tradition, endeavoring to move people of all ages, cultures and attitudes toward the Fullness of Life.

Oh, I did just notice that they have a monthly magazine - but wait - it's FREE

[jimnyc]

The church I attend is held in a Martial Arts dojo. No alter, no extravagances, no gold. Just loving people worshipping the Lord.

Nothing at all wrong with that, very cool in fact. I was recommended to another 'church' not too long ago, and was also held in a MUCH less extravagant setting. Honestly, I wouldn't mind going to both. There are times that it is comforting for me to be at church, to pray the way I always have, to go to confession, to receive communion. And I think there are times it would be cool to be in a more low key environment, where you would probably learn better, and some probably feel more comfortable. In the end, I think we all, or those attending these places, have Christ in their hearts, which is what matters most.

[Kathianne]

That goes back to Kathianne's post in the thread that got closed. She implied that Protestants are indulgent opulent spenders and that catholics are frugal and non indulgent. I pointed out her error.

Go there if one wants, the Protestants are now the ones selling indulgences via TV, Cable, and radio. Don't forget the Crystal mega churches. KA

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?41119-Religious-freedom-is-for-ALL-religions&p=642952#post642952

and you responded by posting St Peter's and such from wealth of later times. No matter, wrong is wrong when it comes to Christianity. Doesn't take a genius, thankfully for both of us.

My church has done wrong via leaders. So have many 'evangelical leaders.' They too have garnered great wealth, while doing some good. Come to where I live, see the Wheaton College Campus and Billy Graham Center. Go see many of the Crystal Palaces that are edifices to the wealth gathered in God's name, but creating individual wealth for human leaders.

Sin is in the nature of man. Few rise above it, we Christians call them saints. Many saints were steeped in sin, until they chose to really follow Christ.

[logroller]

The church I attend is held in a Martial Arts dojo. No alter, no extravagances, no gold. Just loving people worshipping the Lord.
Ok-- thats good if it works for you. I work with a staunch catholic that celebrates mass in a public park-- no alter, no gold, not even the extravagences of walls, a roof, nor even chairs-- does that make them more Christian than a church that has those things?

[Kathianne]

Here's Catholic TV, catholicism 24/7.

http://www.catholictv.com/



Look, I'm not the person who whined about expensive churches, tv broadcasts etc. That was Kathianne. I simply pointed out her hypocrisy.

You failed to 'point out my hypocrisy' since all I did was point out the hypocrisy of some of the literalists. You would be hard pressed to find me or the current pope for that matter, defending what the Church has done fiscally or in protecting sinners past or present.

[Kathianne]

The church I attend is held in a Martial Arts dojo. No alter, no extravagances, no gold. Just loving people worshipping the Lord.

The Lord loved his creation. You don't seemed to have fully received that message regarding 'negroes' or Muslims, or Catholics, or yet to be determined.

[BillyBob]

Oh, I did just notice that they have a monthly magazine - but wait - it's FREE


I did see a place for donations. Like I said, I wasn't the person who brought it all up, Kathi did as an indictment against her [false] perception of my belief system. I simply fired back...with both barrels.

And for the record, since I [and my ilk] am the side topic here: I am an evolutionist, I am a non-denominational, I am not what I would consider a very good Christian, I do not take every word of the Bible literally and I struggle with the world just like most people. I don't judge other religions [except islam] and I really have no interest in converting anyone [even muslims, I'd rather just kill them]. I do believe that evil absolutely exists and that it has a foothold on this world. I pray every day for forgiveness and peace in my life. I try to be more loving to my family and friends and I love my dogs without question as they do me.

Call that what you want.

[Kathianne]

I did see a place for donations. Like I said, I wasn't the person who brought it all up, Kathi did as an indictment against her [false] perception of my belief system. I simply fired back...with both barrels.

And for the record, since I [and my ilk] am the side topic here: I am an evolutionist, I am a non-denominational, I am not what I would consider a very good Christian, I do not take every word of the Bible literally and I struggle with the world just like most people. I don't judge other religions [except islam] and I really have no interest in converting anyone [even muslims, I'd rather just kill them]. I do believe that evil absolutely exists and that it has a foothold on this world. I pray every day for forgiveness and peace in my life. I try to be more loving to my family and friends and I love my dogs without question as they do me.

Call that what you want.

What do you want to call it? Seems you be hating on Muslim, negroes, Catholics, Wiccans, want to add more?

[BillyBob]

The Lord loved his creation. You don't seemed to have fully received that message regarding 'negroes' or Muslims, or Catholics, or yet to be determined.

The Lord is welcome to love whomever He chooses. But He sure spent a lot of time destroying those whom He didn't love.

[aboutime]

What do you want to call it? Seems you be hating on Muslim, negroes, Catholics, Wiccans, want to add more?


Kathianne. Notice how he intentionally excludes himself? Advertising so much hatred usually points to someone who has an extreme hatred of Self, and needs to express it to disguise his own.

[Kathianne]

The Lord is welcome to love whomever He chooses. But He sure spent a lot of time destroying those whom He didn't love.

So you feel God failed to get rid of the right folks? The negroes, Muslims, Catholics, Wiccans, want to add to the list?

[jimnyc]

I did see a place for donations. Like I said, I wasn't the person who brought it all up, Kathi did as an indictment against her [false] perception of my belief system. I simply fired back...with both barrels.

And for the record, since I [and my ilk] am the side topic here: I am an evolutionist, I am a non-denominational, I am not what I would consider a very good Christian, I do not take every word of the Bible literally and I struggle with the world just like most people. I don't judge other religions [except islam] and I really have no interest in converting anyone [even muslims, I'd rather just kill them]. I do believe that evil absolutely exists and that it has a foothold on this world. I pray every day for forgiveness and peace in my life. I try to be more loving to my family and friends and I love my dogs without question as they do me.

Call that what you want.

Donation requests for a website is a far cry from selling tons of things for profit. I can't imagine streaming TV, bandwidth wise, to be too cheap on the hosting fees. Not sure how many people actually donate, but I wouldn't hold it against them for trying to offset fees.

Similar to how I feel at church. I don't mind the donation boxes, which I choose to donate to every time I go to church. I feel like it's there, and I can choose to do if I can, and if I can't I can't. But I don't like the collection plate and the guys with the 10 foot sticks. I always feel like I'm being watched and expected to donate.

[BillyBob]

What do you want to call it? Seems you be hating on Muslim, negroes, Catholics, Wiccans, want to add more?


The only people on your list I hate are muslims, but they started it. Oh, and Catholics have been hating them for 1500 years too, so it looks like you and I have found some common ground.

Why do you insist on falsely misrepresenting me? Why not just stick to reality? Seriously.

[Kathianne]

Donation requests for a website is a far cry from selling tons of things for profit. I can't imagine streaming TV, bandwidth wise, to be too cheap on the hosting fees. Not sure how many people actually donate, but I wouldn't hold it against them for trying to offset fees.

Similar to how I feel at church. I don't mind the donation boxes, which I choose to donate to every time I go to church. I feel like it's there, and I can choose to do if I can, and if I can't I can't. But I don't like the collection plate and the guys with the 10 foot sticks. I always feel like I'm being watched and expected to donate.

Here's the deal, IMO. If donations are to garner God's favor, we'll always lose. That was Luther's point and he was right. One cannot buy one's salvation. If on the other hand, one is donating to spread a message of giving and helping others? Good thing. Won't get you into heaven in and of itself, but sort of on the order of buying the bible, there are lessons there in the purchase, if you read. Those lessons may help to soften your heart and sharpen your brain to receive the Lord's message.

[BillyBob]

So you feel God failed to get rid of the right folks? The negroes, Muslims, Catholics, Wiccans, want to add to the list?


More misrepresentation. Why would you do that? That isn't very Christian of you. It may be Catholic, but it's definitely not Christian.

[BillyBob]

So you feel God failed to get rid of the right folks? The negroes, Muslims, Catholics, Wiccans, want to add to the list?

So you are saying that God doesn't love everybody? You're all over the place...again.

[Kathianne]

The only people on your list I hate are muslims, but they started it. Oh, and Catholics have been hating them for 1500 years too, so it looks like you and I have found some common ground.

Why do you insist on falsely misrepresenting me? Why not just stick to reality? Seriously.

Billy Bob, you and Bobby have done a very good job of presenting yourselves as haters for righteous reasons. To bring 'truth' through hate. Some of us disagree with you. You argue to the 'natural' inferiority of 'negroes', the condemnation of any that disagree, indeed specifically Wiccan Liberal.

I've not falsely represented you, just called you out. Bobby just defended and thanked you all he can. Take heart, he 'hearts' you!

[Kathianne]

So you are saying that God doesn't love everybody? You're all over the place...again.

Unlike you, I do think most members can follow the conversations. You dis them at your own rep.

[BillyBob]

Kathianne. Notice how he intentionally excludes himself? Advertising so much hatred usually points to someone who has an extreme hatred of Self, and needs to express it to disguise his own.


Don't listen to Kathi, she'll lead you down the wrong path. It may already be too late...

[Kathianne]

Unlike you, I do think most members can follow the conversations. You dis them at your own rep.

That was quick. Bump.

[Kat]

Don't listen to Kathi, she'll lead you down the wrong path. It may already be too late...


That's a bunch of bs.

And there is not one of us that can say who truly is or is not a Christian. That would be between a person and God, as only He can know your heart. The definition of a Christian is already defined in this thread......Christianity is NOT a denomination.

[BillyBob]

Billy Bob, you and Bobby have done a very good job of presenting yourselves as haters for righteous reasons.

More falsehoods. I have never claimed righteous. Do you ever tire of spewing lies?



To bring 'truth' through hate. Some of us disagree with you. You argue to the 'natural' inferiority of 'negroes',

That's not hate, it's simply a fact. If anyone is to blame for their inferiority it's God. Take it up with Him.



the condemnation of any that disagree, indeed specifically Wiccan Liberal.

You're hallucinating. I have never condemned that person.




I've not falsely represented you, just called you out.

No, you have lied.



Bobby just defended and thanked you all he can. Take heart, he 'hearts' you!

Irrelevant. Your lies are yours alone.

[BillyBob]

That's a bunch of bs.

Choose to see whatever you want.



And there is not one of us that can say who truly is or is not a Christian. That would be between a perons and God, as only He can know your heart. The definition of a Christian is already defined in this thread......Christianity is NOT a denomination.

Catholics would disagree.

[Kathianne]

More falsehoods. I have never claimed righteous. Do you ever tire of spewing lies?




That's not hate, it's simply a fact. If anyone is to blame for their inferiority it's God. Take it up with Him.




You're hallucinating. I have never condemned that person.





No, you have lied.




Irrelevant. Your lies are yours alone.


Again, both of our posts are now history, for all to read. So is the ability for all to check out 'facts' as you purport. The inferiority of negroes. Your take on Wiccans, etc.

My guess is that most have followed along if interested. So, they'll judge on their own basis of knowledge of subject matter and posters.

[Kat]

Choose to see whatever you want.




Catholics would disagree.


I see quite clearly. Not as sure about you. NO denomination automatically makes you a Christian.

[BillyBob]

Unlike you, I do think most members can follow the conversations.

You certainly can't, so let me remind you of how it went down, sweetie.




The Lord loved his creation. You don't seemed to have fully received that message regarding 'negroes' or Muslims, or Catholics, or yet to be determined.



The Lord is welcome to love whomever He chooses. But He sure spent a lot of time destroying those whom He didn't love.



So you feel God failed to get rid of the right folks? The negroes, Muslims, Catholics, Wiccans, want to add to the list?



So you are saying that God doesn't love everybody? You're all over the place...again.


That's the conversation as it happened. Either the Lord loves everybody or He often kills those He doesn't love. Can't have it both ways, cupcake.

[BillyBob]

I see quite clearly. Not as sure about you. NO denomination automatically makes you a Christian.


What does 'catholic' automatically make you?

[BillyBob]

Again, both of our posts are now history, for all to read. So is the ability for all to check out 'facts' as you purport. The inferiority of negroes. Your take on Wiccans, etc.

The inferiority of negroes is simply a fact, not hatred. I actually feel bad for them. And please post a link to my 'take on wiccans' or stfu about it. :)

[Kat]

What does 'catholic' automatically make you?


I didn't say it automatically makes you anything. They have a belief system, but it certainly doesn't prevent them from being Christians.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?41161-Are-Catholics-Christians&p=643346#post643346 This post pretty much sums it up. All else is man made denominations.

[Kathianne]

You certainly can't, so let me remind you of how it went down, sweetie.


That's the conversation as it happened. Either the Lord loves everybody or He often kills those He doesn't love. Can't have it both ways, cupcake.

No need for condescension on my part. Your posts do quite nicely on truth telling.

[BillyBob]

I didn't say it automatically makes you anything. They have a belief system, but it certainly doesn't prevent them from being Christians.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?41161-Are-Catholics-Christians&p=643346#post643346 This post pretty much sums it up. All else is man made denominations.


By the way, I never said catholics aren't christians, I merely asked the question. It's an interesting, thought-provoking topic of discussion.

[Kathianne]

By the way, I never said catholics aren't christians, I merely asked the question. It's an interesting, thought-provoking topic of discussion.

Really?

[logroller]

Catholics would disagree.
Speaking to what others agree or disagree with. That's a bold faced fallacy that evidences only your egotistical ignorance. I noticed you have to yet answer my question on my catholic coworker who practices without even a building. I'm not surprised. Exposing the flaws in your grandiose beliefs is too disturbing for you to consider.

[BillyBob]

No need for condescension on my part. Your posts do quite nicely on truth telling.

You aren't my little cupcake?


Speaking of truth telling, show me where I ever said:
1. I was a biblical literalist with an aversion to evolution.
2. Anything bad at all about wiccan woman.
3. That I hate negroes.

Those were your claims, let's start with those three and see where we end up, OK honeybun?

[BillyBob]

Really?

Yes, please learn to pay attention.

[BillyBob]

Speaking to what others agree or disagree with. That's a bold faced fallacy that evidences only your egotistical ignorance. I noticed you have to yet answer my question on my catholic coworker who practices without even a building. I'm not surprised. Exposing the flaws in your grandiose beliefs is too disturbing for you to consider.

I must have missed that post, I've been busy responding to Kathi's endless false accusations, irrational ramblings and ambiguous flirtations.

I'd be happy to discuss it with you, what is the number of the post to which you would like me to respond?

[logroller]

Bump

Ok-- thats good if it works for you. I work with a staunch catholic that celebrates mass in a public park-- no alter, no gold, not even the extravagences of walls, a roof, nor even chairs-- does that make them more Christian than a church that has those things?

[BillyBob]

Bump

Where he meets doesn't make him anything. What he is, is ultimately between him and God.

The whole point about church buildings and popemobiles and such was in response to Kathi's implication that Catholics are frugal and Protestants are opulent. Silly, I know, but that what she implied.

[Robert A Whit]

She posted scripture and is on topic, even if in disagreement with Bb. Please don't look for an issue with her when she didn't address you.

Not you again.

She did as I said she did. I did not need to post what else she did. I was not looking for an issue. I wondered why she lambasted the man.

[jimnyc]

Not you again.

Please don't start. I own the board and am an administrator. When I see something out of line, I will be intervening before it gets worse. Get used to it, it's not going to change because you don't like it.

[jimnyc]

You aren't my little cupcake?

Please stop with the demeaning stuff towards women, with the cupcake and honeybun crap. If I missed where she was calling you the equivalent, my bad, and I ask her to cease as well.

[BillyBob]

Please stop with the demeaning stuff towards women, with the cupcake and honeybun crap. If I missed where she was calling you the equivalent, my bad, and I ask her to cease as well.


Maybe I misread her, I was sure she was flirting with me. I apologize.


By the way, is MA still calling everyone 'dumbass'?

[jimnyc]

Maybe I misread her, I was sure she was flirting with me. I apologize.


By the way, is MA still calling everyone 'dumbass'?


I asked him to cut back on it. But men calling one another dumb names is MUCH different, to me, than demeaning names towards women. Call me old fashioned. :)

[BillyBob]

I asked him to cut back on it. But men calling one another dumb names is MUCH different, to me, than demeaning names towards women. Call me old fashioned. :)

It's good to see chivalry once in awhile.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kathianne http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=643469#post643469)
Billy Bob, you and Bobby have done a very good job of presenting yourselves as haters for righteous reasons.




BB replied:More falsehoods. I have never claimed righteous. Do you ever tire of spewing lies?

That is correct. She should learn to stop judging others that way.

I only don't like untruths and I see her doing it several times.

[aboutime]

Everyone knows BB's PERSPECTIVES. Familiar as a pair of 5093 , and an insult to Puppets everywhere.

[BillyBob]

Everyone knows BB's PERSPECTIVES. Familiar as a pair of 5093 , and an insult to Puppets everywhere.


If that's true, then why are my 'perspectives' so regularly [deliberately] misrepresented?

And honestly, I didn't start this thread to talk about me, I'm much more interested in Scripture and debate. If you guys wanna perpetuate your falsehoods about me, start a thread in the cage titled something like: BillyBob Hates Everybody...or whatever. I promise to show up.

In the meantime, do you have anything topical to add to this discussion? Because I'm sure it will be fascinating.

[Kathianne]

You aren't my little cupcake?


Speaking of truth telling, show me where I ever said:
1. I was a biblical literalist with an aversion to evolution.
2. Anything bad at all about wiccan woman.
3. That I hate negroes.

Those were your claims, let's start with those three and see where we end up, OK honeybun?

Right now Jim and MM are going at it. I'll assume those reading the posts can decide. I've already posted as I have, so have you. I'm not into rehashing same stuff, like the 'supposn guy.' No need to keep repeating.

[BillyBob]

Right now Jim and MM are going at it. I'll assume those reading the posts can decide. I've already posted as I have, so have you. I'm not into rehashing same stuff, like the 'supposn guy.' No need to keep repeating.

Rehashing? You have NEVER posted a link of me bashing Wiccan Woman, as per your claim. Until you do, you are a liar. Nice deflection, though.

[Kathianne]

Please stop with the demeaning stuff towards women, with the cupcake and honeybun crap. If I missed where she was calling you the equivalent, my bad, and I ask her to cease as well.

While you missed the 'would ask,' wasn't necessary since I've not called him any names, directly or by inference.

That his posts and claims are less than to task, is on him, not you or me.

[tailfins]

It's good to see chivalry once in awhile.

Chivalry is dead. "Liberated" women can't have it both ways. Either they are equal or they are not. "Equal sometimes" is silly.

[BillyBob]

While you missed the 'would ask,' wasn't necessary since I've not called him any names, directly or by inference.

Yes you have, you have called me a bigot, a Biblical literalist, a hater of catholics, a hater of wiccan woman, a hater of negroes and a hater of muslims [OK, that one was correct].




That his posts and claims are less than to task, is on him, not you or me.


Those names were terms on endearment.

Now that we got that settled, please direct me to a post where I bashed Wiccan Woman and claimed I was a Biblical Literalist with an aversion to evolution. They're your claims, back 'em up or admit that you lied.

[BillyBob]

Chivalry is dead. "Liberated" women can't have it both ways. Either they are equal or they are not. "Equal sometimes" is silly.

Especially on an internet debate forum. Chicks often like to slug it out with the boys then hide behind their gender when they get the crap beaten out of them in a debate. Seen it a million times.

[logroller]

We were having an interesting, pleasant discussion about this in another thread then it mysteriously got closed. Too bad, catholicism wasn't holding up very well under scrutiny. My favorite moment was when a catholic poster whined about Protestant Crystal Palace churches...then I posted pics of the Vatican. Kinda put an end to that attempt to defame real Christians and portray them as money grabbers.

Personally, I don't care what religion you are. As long as you're not a muslim. I hate muslims. Every one of them. Muslims are evil, catholics are mostly just misguided.


Where he meets doesn't make him anything. What he is, is ultimately between him and God.

The whole point about church buildings and popemobiles and such was in response to Kathi's implication that Catholics are frugal and Protestants are opulent. Silly, I know, but that what she implied.
With respect to the whether Catholics are Christian, you have indicated under scrutiny they do not fare well and you imply that opulence is some (contra-)indicator; else why did you introduce the point (silly though it may be)?

[Kathianne]

With respect to the whether Catholics are Christian, you have indicated under scrutiny they do not fare well and you imply that opulence is some (contra-)indicator; else why did you introduce the point (silly though it may be)?

I guess if the church meetings aren't at the local Karate outlet, they are 'opulent?' So all 'Churches' fail via Catholic Church example? Is that the point?

[logroller]

I guess if the church meetings aren't at the local Karate outlet, they are 'opulent?' So all 'Churches' fail via Catholic Church example? Is that the point?
The purpose was not to make a point but, rather, to blunt the point that austerity is demonstrable of a Christian church.

[BillyBob]

With respect to the whether Catholics are Christian, you have indicated under scrutiny they do not fare well

I have said that I believe most catholics are indeed christian. It's the leadership that I condemn.



and you imply that opulence is some (contra-)indicator; else why did you introduce the point (silly though it may be)?


I didn't introduce the point, Kathi did. She indicted non Catholic churches for being opulent while implying that catholic churches are meager. I posted a pic of the gaudy Vatican and she shut up about it for 3 days. Now she's trying to spin this in some favorable direction for herself. It ain't working, though. The Vatican is still there and the Pope still rides in a customized Mercedes.

[BillyBob]

I guess if the church meetings aren't at the local Karate outlet, they are 'opulent?' So all 'Churches' fail via Catholic Church example? Is that the point?


No, but your attempt to spin everything away from your hypocrisy is certainly entertaining.

[Kathianne]

I have said that I believe most catholics are indeed christian. It's the leadership that I condemn.





I didn't introduce the point, Kathi did. She indicted non Catholic churches for being opulent while implying that catholic churches are meager. I posted a pic of the gaudy Vatican and she shut up about it for 3 days. Now she's trying to spin this in some favorable direction for herself. It ain't working, though. The Vatican is still there and the Pope still rides in a customized Mercedes.

Yep, popemobile is still there. So are the crystal palaces. Which has become enriched more in the past 4 decades percentage wise? Gulp!

From my own pov, this topic is irrelevant in the scheme of things. God doesn't care who wins or loses on a messageboard or even in life. It's in death we are judged. Whether popes, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, Atheists, or Agnostics. For all of us there is an end. Be it at birth, before birth, at 200 or between. Judgment will come.

[Robert A Whit]

BillyBob, confession is done in a number of churches. I checked on the LDS Church to get a good explanation and offer the link so you can study the link.

http://www.lds.net/forums/advice-board/30532-confessing-sins.html


The poster that you can look up asked about confession being needed since he repented and eliminated the sin from his life and feels it is up to him and God.

The reply follows.



For the most part, our sins ARE between us and God. BUT, there is one other part- those we have wronged. So, sins create a triangle between ourselves, God, and the hurt person(s).

Most sins, the third members of this triangle are very easily identifiable and we can repent easily on our own. Example- a child shoplifting. The third point of the triangle includes the store and the parents. Both were wronged, as the store did not receive payment for the stolen item and the parents were deceived. Both must be apologized to, and proper restitution must be made. Once this has been done, the sin is now between you and God. Commit yourself to never again make the same mistake and pray for forgiveness.

However, some sins are much more complicated. These include sins involving the law of chastity and the word of wisdom, among some others. Take, for example, a sadly common sin- viewing pornography. Who fits into the third spot on the triangle? Well, you are hurting your current or future spouse by allowing your sexual hormones to be stimulated by something other than him/her. You are hurting your parents and other family members as this is sure to become a rift in your relationship. If you have lied about this in a temple recommend interview you have hurt the leaders of the church. If you are fulfilling a calling, you are hurting those you work with in your calling as you are not fully open to the promptings of the spirit in your duties.

What at first seemed to be a very personal sin is not so personal. Many people are involved in this.

Part of making restitution to the third party is confession. We must CONFESS our sins and forsake them. Of course, we aren't expected to publicly announce all that we have done wrong. While people are not supposed to be judgmental, they often are and we can safeguard our integrity by not telling those who need not know. BUT, confession is still necessary somewhere. When we keep our sins a secret (between us and God), and tell NOBODY what we have done, it is much easier for Satan to tempt us and draw us back into the sin. Confession is not so much supposed to be an embarrassment as it is a relief. When you confess your sin, you put it in the open, making it harder for Satan to maintain his hold.

Confession gives us a support system to help keep us from committing the same sins again. We have no problem seeking support from those around us with the simpler sins. I'm sure you would have no problem telling your bishop, family, friends and neighbors if you had a problem keeping the Sabbath day holy. They would offer you advice, support, and help in becoming a better Sabbath day observer. This is not so easy with the more grievous sins, as these involve things that are very sacred and personal. People are more likely to judge us, treat us harshly, misunderstand. Where is the support system when it is between you and God? Can you fully repent without confessing to SOMEONE- and by doing so make restitution to that third member of the triangle? No.

This is why confession to the bishop is necessary. He provides the support that otherwise would not be there. He helps weaken the hold Satan has over you and guide you along the path of repentance so that you can feel fully forgiven.

If you are afraid to confess it to your bishop, then you probably NEED to confess it to your bishop. Satan feeds on fear, and he will use it to pull you back down. No matter how small it may seem, you cannot fully repent without confession, because confession helps you accept what you have done, pull you out of denial, realize that you are still a wonderful child of God and he loves you no matter what you have done, and know that you CAN be forgiven.

[BillyBob]

Yep, popemobile is still there. So are the crystal palaces. Which has become enriched more in the past 4 decades percentage wise? Gulp!

It's not my fault people are leaving the catholic church in record numbers.


Catholics in crisis
Reeling from sex-abuse scandals, the Roman Catholic Church is losing members in droves. Can it stem the decline?
By The Week Staff | April 30, 2010

in
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54 COMMENTS (http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis#disqus_thread)



http://media.theweek.com/img/dir_0042/21312_article_main/who-is-to-blame-for-the-scandal-in-the-church.jpg?174
Who is to blame for the scandal in the Church?
Corbis




H
ow severe is the crisis?
It’s “the largest institutional crisis in centuries, possibly in church history,” says the National Catholic Reporter. Worldwide, the Roman Catholic Church now has 1.1 billion members, compared with 1.5 billion Muslims and 593 million Protestants. In the U.S., all the major denominations have seen their numbers decline in recent years, but the Catholic Church has taken the biggest hit. Since the 1960s, four American-born Catholics have left the church for every one who has converted, according to a 2009 Pew study. In 2008 alone, Catholic membership declined by 400,000. More than 1,000 parishes have closed since 1995, and the number of priests has fallen from about 49,000 to 40,000 during that same period. Some 3,400 Catholic parishes in the U.S. now lack a resident priest. “Catholicism is in decline across America,” says sociologist David Carlin.





From my own pov, this topic is irrelevant in the scheme of things. God doesn't care who wins or loses on a messageboard or even in life. It's in death we are judged. Whether popes, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, Atheists, or Agnostics. For all of us there is an end. Be it at birth, before birth, at 200 or between. Judgment will come.

That's fine, but in the meantime we are posting on a message board and having a discussion about it.

[logroller]

I have said that I believe most catholics are indeed christian. It's the leadership that I condemn.

Who are you to condemn them? Is that not solely God's power?




I didn't introduce the point, Kathi did.
Not in this thread on whether Catholics are Christians-- you introduced that point here and now-- and regardless of whether you attribute the point to her, you've just stipulated that it is no indicator of being a Christian. So why introduce a point that you believe irrelevant? I know why you did; it's plain to see. Jabs for the sake of ribbing another are only tolerated when a modicum of honesty is prevalent.

[Kathianne]

It's not my fault people are leaving the catholic church in record numbers.


Catholics in crisis
Reeling from sex-abuse scandals, the Roman Catholic Church is losing members in droves. Can it stem the decline?
By The Week Staff | April 30, 2010

in
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54 COMMENTS (http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis#disqus_thread)



http://media.theweek.com/img/dir_0042/21312_article_main/who-is-to-blame-for-the-scandal-in-the-church.jpg?174
Who is to blame for the scandal in the Church?
Corbis




H
ow severe is the crisis?
It’s “the largest institutional crisis in centuries, possibly in church history,” says the National Catholic Reporter. Worldwide, the Roman Catholic Church now has 1.1 billion members, compared with 1.5 billion Muslims and 593 million Protestants. In the U.S., all the major denominations have seen their numbers decline in recent years, but the Catholic Church has taken the biggest hit. Since the 1960s, four American-born Catholics have left the church for every one who has converted, according to a 2009 Pew study. In 2008 alone, Catholic membership declined by 400,000. More than 1,000 parishes have closed since 1995, and the number of priests has fallen from about 49,000 to 40,000 during that same period. Some 3,400 Catholic parishes in the U.S. now lack a resident priest. “Catholicism is in decline across America,” says sociologist David Carlin.






That's fine, but in the meantime we are posting on a message board and having a discussion about it.




Whether or not true, assuming it is, relevant to topic or me why?

[BillyBob]

Whether or not true, assuming it is, relevant to topic or me why?


Because you were whining about non catholic churches growing.

[BillyBob]

Who are you to condemn them? Is that not solely God's power?

I'm sure he condemns them, too. But no, it is not solely 'God's power' to do so. Paul did it regularly and so have many people throughout the ages.




Not in this thread on whether Catholics are Christians-- you introduced that point here and now-- and regardless of whether you attribute the point to her, you've just stipulated that it is no indicator of being a Christian. So why introduce a point that you believe irrelevant? I know why you did; it's plain to see. Jabs for the sake of ribbing another are only tolerated when a modicum of honesty is prevalent.

The other thread was closed and I wanted to continue that discussion. Simple.

[BillyBob]

I agree that confession has enormous benefits to the confessor. I just don't see the need for a priest to give him a series of chores of penance for which he must perform in order to be redeemed.

[logroller]

The other thread was closed and I wanted to continue that discussion. Simple.

Perhaps you fail to understand why threads are closed-- it's to end a discussion, not rehash it elsewhere.

[BillyBob]

Perhaps you fail to understand why threads are closed-- it's to end a discussion, not rehash it elsewhere.


No, that's not why that thread was closed. And it doesn't matter why. Kathi said some things that never got resolved and therefor I started this thread. Why are you making excuses for her hypocrisy, lies and general ignorance anyway?

And why would a discussion board 'end a discussion'? That seems kind of self defeating, wouldn't you say?

[Robert A Whit]

I agree that confession has enormous benefits to the confessor. I just don't see the need for a priest to give him a series of chores of penance for which he must perform in order to be redeemed.

I can't recall penance or punishment being part of how it works with the Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Perhaps you can show me where that was said in the part I showed you.

[BillyBob]

I can't recall penance or punishment being part of how it works with the Latter Day Saints (Mormons)

Perhaps you can show me where that was said in the part I showed you.

I was referring to catholicism.

[Kathianne]

Because you were whining about non catholic churches growing.

Really? Where?

[Kathianne]

I was referring to catholicism.

Withdraw, insert. Withdraw, insert. Are we feeling it yet? Ahhhh!!!!

[BillyBob]

Really? Where?


Everybody following this thread knows exactly where.

But if you want me to point it out, I'll be happy to as soon as you post links to where I ever claimed to be a fundamentalist who has an aversion to evolution, a link to where I proclaim my hatred for wiccan woman and a link to where I explain my hatred for catholics as you have claimed many times in this very thread.

Or you could just go back and hide under the catholic rock from which you came. Makes no difference to me. I have no respect for liars, female or otherwise.

[BillyBob]

Withdraw, insert. Withdraw, insert. Are we feeling it yet? Ahhhh!!!!


I love when you talk sexy. But Jim has asked you to stop it and I must say I agree with him. Please don't make me report you.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Withdraw, insert. Withdraw, insert. Are we feeling it yet? Ahhhh!!!!

They feel it more when they rep each other.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I love when you talk sexy. But Jim has asked you to stop it and I must say I agree with him. Please don't make me report you.

whiner.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The church I attend is held in a Martial Arts dojo. No alter, no extravagances, no gold. Just loving people worshipping the Lord.

And thus, all other churches and methods of worship are inferior to yours. We get it... we get it.

[BillyBob]

And thus, all other churches and methods of worship are inferior to yours. We get it... we get it.

No, you don't get it at all. Not that anyone is surprised......

[Kathianne]

Everybody following this thread knows exactly where.

But if you want me to point it out, I'll be happy to as soon as you post links to where I ever claimed to be a fundamentalist who has an aversion to evolution, a link to where I proclaim my hatred for wiccan woman and a link to where I explain my hatred for catholics as you have claimed many times in this very thread.

Or you could just go back and hide under the catholic rock from which you came. Makes no difference to me. I have no respect for liars, female or otherwise.

Me neither and your paltry attempts to equate you lies with my posts will not will out. Simple reason, truth triumphs.

[Kathianne]

I love when you talk sexy. But Jim has asked you to stop it and I must say I agree with him. Please don't make me report you.

Jim has done nothing of the sort.

[Marcus Aurelius]

It's not my fault people are leaving the catholic church in record numbers.


Catholics in crisis
Reeling from sex-abuse scandals, the Roman Catholic Church is losing members in droves. Can it stem the decline?
By The Week Staff | April 30, 2010

in
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54 COMMENTS (http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis#disqus_thread)



http://media.theweek.com/img/dir_0042/21312_article_main/who-is-to-blame-for-the-scandal-in-the-church.jpg?174
Who is to blame for the scandal in the Church?
Corbis




H
ow severe is the crisis?
It’s “the largest institutional crisis in centuries, possibly in church history,” says the National Catholic Reporter. Worldwide, the Roman Catholic Church now has 1.1 billion members, compared with 1.5 billion Muslims and 593 million Protestants. In the U.S., all the major denominations have seen their numbers decline in recent years, but the Catholic Church has taken the biggest hit. Since the 1960s, four American-born Catholics have left the church for every one who has converted, according to a 2009 Pew study. In 2008 alone, Catholic membership declined by 400,000. More than 1,000 parishes have closed since 1995, and the number of priests has fallen from about 49,000 to 40,000 during that same period. Some 3,400 Catholic parishes in the U.S. now lack a resident priest. “Catholicism is in decline across America,” says sociologist David Carlin.






That's fine, but in the meantime we are posting on a message board and having a discussion about it.




First, learn how yo post links properly so we don't have to hunt for the source of whatever you post.

Second...

http://www.chron.com/life/houston-belief/article/Catholic-membership-up-most-Protestant-churches-1705514.php


U.S. membership has increased in the Catholic Church (http://www.chron.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=life%2Fhouston-belief&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Catholic+Church%22) — the nation's largest Christian body — but the No. 2 Southern Baptist Convention (http://www.chron.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=life%2Fhouston-belief&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22Southern+Baptist+Convention%22), along with most mainline Protestant denominations, reported continuing decline, according to new figures released by the National Council of Churches (http://www.chron.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=life%2Fhouston-belief&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22National+Council+of+Churches%22).


The NCC's annual Yearbook is regarded as one of the most reliable recorders of church membership in North America.


http://religion.lohudblogs.com/2011/02/28/catholic-church-still-growing-mainlines-still-not/

The new, 79th edition includes numbers that were collected by the denominations in 2009 and reported to the yearbook in 2010, so they’re a bit behind.

The Roman Catholic Church reported 68.5 million members, which translates into growth of .57 percent. You have to figure that much of that can be attributed to immigration. The church’s continued growth seems to belie recent findings (http://pewforum.org/Faith-in-Flux%283%29.aspx) that 10 percent of Americans are lapsed Catholics.




http://cvcomment.org/2013/03/04/challenging-the-myth-of-catholic-decline/

Challenging the myth of Catholic ‘decline’ (http://cvcomment.org/2013/03/04/challenging-the-myth-of-catholic-decline/)

In 1900 there were roughly 266 million Catholics in the world. This rose to 1,045 million by 2000. By 2010 there were 1,197 million (http://visnews-en.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/presentation-of-pontifical-yearbook.html), according to the 2012 edition of the Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae, the ‘Statistical Yearbook of the Church’. Over the last forty years, Catholics have consistently made up between 17 and 18pc of the world’s population (http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html); having been steadily about 17.3pc (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/annu2007.htm) in recent years, they now are probably about 17.5pc. Current growth in the world’s Catholic population is slightly outpacing general population growth (http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/9200/Openers-Vatican-statistics-on-global-Catholics-ha.aspx).


Catholicism has grown more dramatically in Africa than anywhere else in the world over the last century. In 1900, there were fewer than two million Catholics in sub-Saharan Africa, whereas by 2000, there were more than 130 million; this, as John Allen points out in The Future Church, represents a staggering growth rate of more than 6,000 per cent.


In Asia overall, the proportion of Catholics more than doubled over the course of the twentieth century (just 1.2 per cent of Asians were Catholic in 1900, but three per cent of Asians were in 2000). This growth has taken place not only in traditional Catholic countries such as the Philippines — the third largest Catholic country in the world, where there were more Catholic baptisms in 2000 than in France, Spain, Italy, and Poland combined — but in mission countries such as South Korea, where the number of Catholics doubled to more than five million people between 1985 and 2005; as well as India, whose Catholic population rose from two million to more than 17 million over the course of the twentieth century.


The Chinese government (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749) says there are about six million Catholics in China, out of 25m Christians of all denominations — a massive growth from the million or so Christians there in 1970.


But one thing is clear. The Catholic Church is not in crisis, and it is not declining.

[Marcus Aurelius]

No, you don't get it at all. Not that anyone is surprised......

We'll just add Catholics to the list of people you hate, along with Muslims, homosexuals and black people.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Jim has done nothing of the sort.

threats make him feel all big and manly.

[logroller]

No, that's not why that thread was closed. And it doesn't matter why. Kathi said some things that never got resolved and therefor I started this thread. Why are you making excuses for her hypocrisy, lies and general ignorance anyway?

And why would a discussion board 'end a discussion'? That seems kind of self defeating, wouldn't you say?
and you believe that by calling her a hypocritical lying ignoramus there will be some resolution? (Rhetorical question) it won't. I'm not making excuses for any of her positions. Whatever merits (or lack thereof) her arguments carry can surely stand or fall on their own and won't benefit from their being insulated, nor will your repeatedly bringing them up increase their weakness.

from the rules and guidelines (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?3487-Debate-Policy-Rules) that were agreed to upon becoming a member. (Emphasis mine)

Freedom of Speech - This has been, and always will be, the main vision of mine for the community. All points of view are tolerated here, and liberals and conservatives are equally welcome. Members will never be punished in any way because of their political affiliation. Freedom of speech does not mean things can be posted that are detrimental to the board.

Personal Feuds - No surprisingly, members can sometimes get involved in personal feuds. We ask that these be kept off the boards. Please don't derail threads by going "after" someone you don't like. Don't start threads just to rile someone up. Don't harass other members. Please PM staff if you need assistance.

[jimnyc]

And why would a discussion board 'end a discussion'? That seems kind of self defeating, wouldn't you say?

No "discussion" has been ended. If it were purely discussion, the thread would still be going. We ended the fighting in a thread that was opened in response to another thread which was closed due to incessant fighting and off topic crap.