View Full Version : Muslim Prayer Coming to a School Near You
How disgusting is this , you cant say a Christian prayer in school but I guess its ok for our kids to pray to a child molester
http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130530003-muslim-prayer- (http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130530003-muslim-prayer-school.html)
But then again this is in DC , I am sure the land of fruits and nuts will follow shortly
Missileman
06-02-2013, 09:28 AM
How disgusting is this , you cant say a Christian prayer in school but I guess its ok for our kids to pray to a child molester
http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130530003-muslim-prayer- (http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130530003-muslim-prayer-school.html)
But then again this is in DC , I am sure the land of fruits and nuts will follow shortly
Christian children can indeed pray in school.
jimnyc
06-02-2013, 09:30 AM
Christian children can indeed pray in school.
Are they "accommodated" and excused from class in order to do so? I've yet to see any schools allow Christians to do so. As far as I know, they are allowed to pray so long as they do it silently and to themselves.
Ugh. If some kid wants to pray to whatever god that their math test isn't going to be too hard, or that their PE teacher isn't a colossal pervert etc, they can do it in their own time before or after class.
And look at that for a killer last sentence "many of whom remember when the school was a Christian institution".
BillyBob
06-02-2013, 11:26 AM
Ugh. If some kid wants to pray to whatever god that their math test isn't going to be too hard, or that their PE teacher isn't a colossal pervert etc, they can do it in their own time before or after class.
And look at that for a killer last sentence "many of whom remember when the school was a Christian institution".
"A high school near Washington DC has taken a rare step of accommodating Muslim prayer during class hours."
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
06-02-2013, 11:33 AM
How disgusting is this , you cant say a Christian prayer in school but I guess its ok for our kids to pray to a child molester
http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130530003-muslim-prayer- (http://www.reagancoalition.com/articles/2013/20130530003-muslim-prayer-school.html)
But then again this is in DC , I am sure the land of fruits and nuts will follow shortly
And most Americans fail to see the power the muslims are rapidly gaining in our government. Obama promotes that power . We are being destroyed from within.
This accommadation is just a red flag for a much larger movement being pushed by obama...
think --NASA and muslim outreach...then think what obama truly plans for...
"sweetest sound he ever heard" , anyone? -Tyr
gabosaurus
06-02-2013, 11:44 AM
We have special plans for your type.
Missileman
06-02-2013, 01:15 PM
Are they "accommodated" and excused from class in order to do so? I've yet to see any schools allow Christians to do so. As far as I know, they are allowed to pray so long as they do it silently and to themselves.
The prayer requirements for Christians doesn't involve a rug and facing toward Mecca. Allowing the Muslims to leave the classroom to attend to their prayers prevents disruption for the remaining students.
"A high school near Washington DC has taken a rare step of accommodating Muslim prayer during class hours."
Yeah, which is stupid. If someone wants to pray they have plenty of time before/after classes or during breaks and lunch.
The prayer requirements for Christians doesn't involve a rug and facing toward Mecca. Allowing the Muslims to leave the classroom to attend to their prayers prevents disruption for the remaining students.
And why do they have to pray during class time? How about causing no disruption at all by praying during none-class time?
jimnyc
06-02-2013, 02:12 PM
The prayer requirements for Christians doesn't involve a rug and facing toward Mecca. Allowing the Muslims to leave the classroom to attend to their prayers prevents disruption for the remaining students.
What if they simply want privacy during the day to do their prayers? An accommodation for one religion and not another, is favoring one. Either give equal access and accommodations, or none for any. The fact that some scream and whine about a Catholic prayer in school, and then defending Muslims getting out of class to have a prayer rug and able to face Mecca, is kind of funny. The reason always given is that prayer shouldn't be in school, but somehow it's acceptable for Muslims AND acceptable to get out of class for the prayer no less? Christians like the group prayer, the way it used to be. The schools should allow for the Christians to meet somewhere in the early morning hours and have a group prayer, which is and used to be quite popular at events, and school.
But ANY exception to one religion, and not all, is simply favoritism.
jimnyc
06-02-2013, 02:13 PM
And why do they have to pray during class time? How about causing no disruption at all by praying during none-class time?
I agree, but some will say because Muslims have specific times to pray 5 times per day. I don't care if their religion calls for this or not, it's still the school accommodating their religious beliefs.
jimnyc
06-02-2013, 02:22 PM
Let's look at it this way - suppose other recognized religions now talk about what their religion expects of them, or that they have requirements - they too should then get similar accommodations, no? So long as it's a legit religion. I know of a few religious organizations that have group prayer several times per day several times per week. Give these people time out of classes to go the lunchroom or conference room or auditorium in order to have their group prayers. Or will this not be allowed, or perhaps told it's not something they need, because their prayer will revolve around Jesus?
aboutime
06-02-2013, 02:30 PM
Let's look at it this way - suppose other recognized religions now talk about what their religion expects of them, or that they have requirements - they too should then get similar accommodations, no? So long as it's a legit religion. I know of a few religious organizations that have group prayer several times per day several times per week. Give these people time out of classes to go the lunchroom or conference room or auditorium in order to have their group prayers. Or will this not be allowed, or perhaps told it's not something they need, because their prayer will revolve around Jesus?
jimnyc: If you really take time to consider, and take a long, hard look at what the outcome of this could be.
It would be a Small, First step at introducing SHARIA Law into our Government Education System if ANYONE bends over to appease such demands. While...at the same time. Telling Christians...THEY ARE NOT PERMITTED TO PRAY, or CELEBRATE religious Holidays...like Christmas, or Easter in those Same schools.
Double standards usually become the Political Correctness standards. Which have the capability of becoming SHARIA LAW VS. U.S. Constitutional Law.
I agree, but some will say because Muslims have specific times to pray 5 times per day. I don't care if their religion calls for this or not, it's still the school accommodating their religious beliefs.
They're meant to pray before sunrise, after mid-day, late afternoon, just after sunset, and between sunset and midnight.
Only one of those, midday, falls under school time, and thats probably around the time they have their lunch.
BillyBob
06-02-2013, 03:37 PM
And why do they have to pray during class time? How about causing no disruption at all by praying during none-class time?
Because muslims are special.
jimnyc
06-02-2013, 03:59 PM
They're meant to pray before sunrise, after mid-day, late afternoon, just after sunset, and between sunset and midnight.
Only one of those, midday, falls under school time, and thats probably around the time they have their lunch.
And considering this would be one of the only public schools in the nation affording this accommodation, it's already been shown that tons and tons of kids have been doing just fine negotiating their Muslim prayers up until now. But again, the bottom line is that if you are going to fight to keep prayers out of the classroom, fight to keep prayers out of speeches, out of games, out of graduations - then you don't turn around and give an accommodation to a different religion.
Christian children can indeed pray in school.
My kids in grammar school where told they couldn't bless there food before eating , but yes after I went to the school and explained they will bless there food they where then allowed to do so
My kids in grammar school where told they couldn't bless there food before eating , but yes after I went to the school and explained they will bless there food they where then allowed to do so
They were unable to 'bless their food' without speaking out loud?
tailfins
06-02-2013, 06:03 PM
Let's look at it this way - suppose other recognized religions now talk about what their religion expects of them, or that they have requirements - they too should then get similar accommodations, no? So long as it's a legit religion. I know of a few religious organizations that have group prayer several times per day several times per week. Give these people time out of classes to go the lunchroom or conference room or auditorium in order to have their group prayers. Or will this not be allowed, or perhaps told it's not something they need, because their prayer will revolve around Jesus?
Do you mean Scientologists shouldn't be allowed to pass bad checks at the school cafeteria?
They were unable to 'bless their food' without speaking out loud?
No they blessed there food to themselves with there eyes closed a simple thank you and a hope that it helps give them nourishment and they where told they where not allowed to pray in school , when I went down to the school they said it may offend other children , I asked how is it going to offend another if my boys have there eyes closed for 30 seconds , they finally gave in on that issue and yes my boys do give thanks at every meal including the one at school
BillyBob
06-02-2013, 06:29 PM
They were unable to 'bless their food' without speaking out loud?
You mean to say they SHOULDN'T speak their prayers?
You mean to say they SHOULDN'T speak their prayers?
It would be more polite to do so inwardly imo.
BillyBob
06-02-2013, 06:36 PM
It would be more polite to do so inwardly imo.
OK, as long as schools are consistent. That's the biggest issue here, from what I can see.
Marcus Aurelius
06-02-2013, 06:39 PM
What if they simply want privacy during the day to do their prayers? An accommodation for one religion and not another, is favoring one. Either give equal access and accommodations, or none for any. The fact that some scream and whine about a Catholic prayer in school, and then defending Muslims getting out of class to have a prayer rug and able to face Mecca, is kind of funny. The reason always given is that prayer shouldn't be in school, but somehow it's acceptable for Muslims AND acceptable to get out of class for the prayer no less? Christians like the group prayer, the way it used to be. The schools should allow for the Christians to meet somewhere in the early morning hours and have a group prayer, which is and used to be quite popular at events, and school.
But ANY exception to one religion, and not all, is simply favoritism.
Where are all the libtard whiners who claimed Christian prayer in school is a violation of the separation of church and state? Where is the ACLU to come in and rattle their sabers at Islamic prayer in schools?
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
06-02-2013, 06:41 PM
We have special plans for your type.
Hell, havent you ever considered that I may have special plans myself? ;)
Only been training on defending myself and my family for a tad over 40+ years now.
I'll make out alright, you should be worried about any asswipes that would try to harm me or mine.
And pray that its never anybody you know!....
As the Hulk once said, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. I CAN DELIVER EVER SO MUCH DAMAGE WHEN FORCED TO DO SO. No brag just a damn fact.......-Tyr
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
06-02-2013, 06:50 PM
Because muslims are special .
ALL SARCASM ASIDE , THAT IS TRUE BUT ONLY BECAUSE THEY INSIST ON IT AND ARE AIDED IN GETTING IT BY USEFUL IDOTS. WHEN THEY DON'T GET IT THEY MURDERR PEOPLE.
SOME OF US SAY KILL THEM RIGHT BACK BUT ONLY IN GREATER NUMBERS AND FFING BE DONE WITH IT!!!
I tend to be very real about it all and not sugarcoat a damn thing.
They don't like my truth , my reality, " ffk 'em feed 'em fishheads". Good enough OPINION FOR A HIGHLY DECORATED AND VERY HONORABLE MARINE WAR VET TO HOLD ,DAMN SURE GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO AGREE WITH 100%!!!!!! -TYR
jafar00
06-02-2013, 07:45 PM
I can't believe some of you believe it is a bad thing. Kids who are praying are going to be well centred and well behaved.
jimnyc
06-02-2013, 07:48 PM
I can't believe some of you believe it is a bad thing. Kids who are praying are going to be well centred and well behaved.
Most of us believe it is good, and would like for Christian prayer in schools too, but it's not allowed. It's equality we're speaking of here, if you accommodate and allow one, simply allow others the same/equivalent. I've got no issue if they allow Muslim kids a chance to pray - as soon as they allow Catholics/Christians equal opportunities/accommodations.
BillyBob
06-02-2013, 07:55 PM
I can't believe some of you believe it is a bad thing. Kids who are praying are going to be well centred and well behaved.
Oh really? Do these jihadists don't seem to be centered or well behaved?
http://www.nobeliefs.com/ReligiousWar/IslamicJihad.jpg
tailfins
06-02-2013, 07:57 PM
I can't believe some of you believe it is a bad thing. Kids who are praying are going to be well centred and well behaved.
It's the double standard that's the bad thing.
aboutime
06-02-2013, 08:03 PM
I can't believe some of you believe it is a bad thing. Kids who are praying are going to be well centred and well behaved.
jafar. There's a really big difference between American children praying, or saying Grace before their meal in school, and the children in that photo who are constantly taught to PRAY for the destruction of anyone who doesn't follow YOUR hypocrisy about the Religion of Peace.
Marcus Aurelius
06-02-2013, 10:07 PM
I can't believe some of you believe it is a bad thing. Kids who are praying are going to be well centred and well behaved.
not the point, dumb ass. the point is that Christian prayer in schools is bitched about by libtards, but Islamic prayer isn't.
red states rule
06-03-2013, 03:43 AM
They were unable to 'bless their food' without speaking out loud?
Ah, the tolerant side of liberalism
Yea, you are free to worship - just don't let me HEAR or SEE you do it.
We are well aware the left wants to remove all public references of God Noir. In a few more months the left will once again start their annual war on Thanksgiving and Christmas
and the liberal media will report "what war"?
red states rule
06-03-2013, 03:50 AM
I can't believe some of you believe it is a bad thing. Kids who are praying are going to be well centred and well behaved.
That would be fine if that praying was all they did. But their parents and "religious leaders" have other ideas for them
http://samsonblinded.org/news/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/3d8bf1fec691db24ef7efca7ce8a0e99.jpg
revelarts
06-03-2013, 10:39 AM
The prayer requirements for Christians doesn't involve a rug and facing toward Mecca. Allowing the Muslims to leave the classroom to attend to their prayers prevents disruption for the remaining students.
Prayer "requirement" for Christians is different for each Christian sect and each Christian. We are told to "pray always" . Some pray 3 times a day, some pray whenever the spirit leads them to pray. some pray before every new task. Some bofore meals etc etc.
the school makes zero accommodation for that, and people like yourself are willing to pass judment on what's required and whats not for Christians but want to make special accommodation for Muslims.
I'm more and more convinced that public school are not a good idea.
No they blessed there food to themselves with there eyes closed a simple thank you and a hope that it helps give them nourishment and they where told they where not allowed to pray in school , when I went down to the school they said it may offend other children , I asked how is it going to offend another if my boys have there eyes closed for 30 seconds , they finally gave in on that issue and yes my boys do give thanks at every meal including the one at school
It would be more polite to do so inwardly imo.
I don't understand the "offense" or what's rude about praying out loud, over food. if it's not shouting or asking others to Shut up before hand whats the "offense"?
espesially if you don't believe it anyway.
I've never got that. even before i became a Christian i never understood the so-called "offense" caused by Christians praying over meals and the like.
Even now i'm not "offended by Muslim prayers or Wiccan prayers, i'm concerned yes, but not offended or think that it's rude. What is that about?
People use profanity in the presence of just about anyone nowadays but there are very few people who take civic "offense" over that kinda language. in school or out.
(non sequitur: you know what's rude? people speaking a foreign language in your presence leaving you out of the a conversation you've been in or that you should be in.)
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 10:52 AM
^^ I believed the same about school events, like games and graduations. Let the speaker say a prayer if they want. If it's a Muslim valedictorian, let him give a Muslim prayer, and the same for other religions. It's laughable that some go nuts over simply hearing a prater, as if their lives have been ruined, their graduation ruined and things are now beyond repair. It HAS to be gone so as not to offend anyone - yet no thought is given to the offense of denying others. It does go both ways. No law or the COTUS state prayer can't be stated in school, it's just schools relenting to save money on lawsuits. Don't believe in the prater? Fine with me. Want to say a Muslim prayer? Fine with me. A prayer from someone who does have a faith, it's not like it harms anyone like some would imply "Oh no, my game/graduation has been ruined and my brain forever scarred!" Please.
BUT - if they deny even one - then I suppose you deny them all. If you accommodate one - then you accommodate all.
jafar00
06-03-2013, 03:57 PM
Most of us believe it is good, and would like for Christian prayer in schools too, but it's not allowed. It's equality we're speaking of here, if you accommodate and allow one, simply allow others the same/equivalent. I've got no issue if they allow Muslim kids a chance to pray - as soon as they allow Catholics/Christians equal opportunities/accommodations.
The issue is not that they are allowed to pray. Christian prayers are not in schools because it would be a collective thing. When I was in primary school, our weekly assembly was preceded the the lord's prayer and we all had to do it. It was compulsory. If Muslim kids are not allowed to pray once in school as is their firm obligation, they will have to reconsider attending the school with other children as prayer is more important to Muslims than worldly affairs.
Allowing them assists in integrating into your society which is what you want isn't it?
Oh really? Do these jihadists don't seem to be centered or well behaved?
http://www.nobeliefs.com/ReligiousWar/IslamicJihad.jpg
I'm sure they are well disciplined soldiers :p
It's the double standard that's the bad thing.
Do Christians have a set requirement for prayer at a certain time?
jafar00
06-03-2013, 04:01 PM
That would be fine if that praying was all they did. But their parents and "religious leaders" have other ideas for them
http://samsonblinded.org/news/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/3d8bf1fec691db24ef7efca7ce8a0e99.jpg
Americans take stupid pictures too.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/kids-with-guns.jpg
Marcus Aurelius
06-03-2013, 04:12 PM
The issue is not that they are allowed to pray. Christian prayers are not in schools because it would be a collective thing. When I was in primary school, our weekly assembly was preceded the the lord's prayer and we all had to do it. It was compulsory. If Muslim kids are not allowed to pray once in school as is their firm obligation, they will have to reconsider attending the school with other children as prayer is more important to Muslims than worldly affairs.
Allowing them assists in integrating into your society which is what you want isn't it?
I'm sure they are well disciplined soldiers :p
Do Christians have a set requirement for prayer at a certain time?
you are such a lying sack of shit. Christian prayers are not allowed in schools because they are Christian prayers, and some people want them kept out of the schools.
It has nothing to do with groups prayer, nor individual prayer... it's the very idea of prayer at all. the ONLY way your statement would be valid is if Christian prayer by individuals was allowed and Christian group prayer wasn't.
Marcus Aurelius
06-03-2013, 04:13 PM
Americans take stupid pictures too.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/kids-with-guns.jpg
I don't see any banners saying 'kill the infidels' in that pic.. do you, dumb ass?
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 04:32 PM
The issue is not that they are allowed to pray. Christian prayers are not in schools because it would be a collective thing. When I was in primary school, our weekly assembly was preceded the the lord's prayer and we all had to do it. It was compulsory. If Muslim kids are not allowed to pray once in school as is their firm obligation, they will have to reconsider attending the school with other children as prayer is more important to Muslims than worldly affairs.
Allowing them assists in integrating into your society which is what you want isn't it?
I'm sure they are well disciplined soldiers :p
Do Christians have a set requirement for prayer at a certain time?
Again, it IS an accommodation for the Muslim kids. They should then allow Christian kids to leave class to pray if they like too, make it equal. Muslims don't get more of an accommodation because that's what their religion calls for, as they CAN do it easily during lunch hour, before school, right after school, right after dinner, nighttime, prior to bed. It IS an accommodation. Simply allow others to have a place to go pray should they feel the need, and I'm 100% behind you. But to say that it should be OK for Muslims, but not others, is simply wrong. MANY, MANY, MANY Christians would LOVE to be able to go somewhere outside of class and have a personal prayer or group prayer - whether at the beginning of the day, lunchtime, during class hours.... In other words, they would simply like the same reasonable ability.
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 04:38 PM
Do Christians have a set requirement for prayer at a certain time?
This shouldn't matter, but yes, some Christians have set times that they want to pray daily. How do all the other Muslim kids get by in every single other public school in America? Oh, that's right, they get by the same way that Christian kids do. So if you change for one, change for all, or simply don't change at all. No way in fucking hell should we be making accommodations for either while ignoring the other. Do you support eliminating Christian prayer altogether, as in a 'separation', so they can't pray in class, at graduations, games and other places? This separation crap has gotten worse and worse to the point that anything outside of silent prayer is banned. Let the Muslim kids have a silent prayer as well, they can do without the rug and which way they face. As a Christian, I like to pray in front of an alter, or on a bench for my knee, with a statue of Christ nearby, while crossing my hands with a set of rosary beads - and YES - this is how we are taught. So they should allow that accommodation as well.
BillyBob
06-03-2013, 05:10 PM
I'm sure they are well disciplined soldiers terrorists. :p
Undoubtedly.
BillyBob
06-03-2013, 05:11 PM
Do Christians have a set requirement for prayer at a certain time?
Often times before meals. Paul said to 'pray without ceasing'.
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 05:16 PM
Americans take stupid pictures too.
Palestinians have a time honored tradition of arming children, and even using them as suicide bombers. Yep, Americans are capable of taking tasteless pictures - but I sure am glad these same children aren't taught to kill, hate and want to be martyrs.
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 05:35 PM
For those that think others don't have specific times they would like to pray, just like Muslims. If one is a true follower - well, then the school should accommodate these times then too:
Perhaps you have never considered it. There are specific hours of the day ordained of God which can be particularly meaningful to the Christian's prayer life. Just as surely as God has ordained a memorial day of the week for corporate worship (together with annual days of celebration), He also ordained special hours of the day for prayer to bring particular honor to Himself. The three Biblical memorial hours of prayer are specifically the third hour, the sixth hour and the ninth hour of the day, or 9:00 A.M., 12 Noon and 3:00 P.M. These were important prayer disciplines faithfully observed by the Old Testament saints, the New Testament Church and by our Lord Jesus Christ. The hours of Prayer" were continually honored because they were divinely appointed. The practice of observing them is being restored to the prayer system of the Body of Christ.
http://www.awarenessministry.org/biblicalhoursofprayer.htm
And look at a more detailed list on this page:
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/z_daily_office_000_index.htm
Missileman
06-03-2013, 05:35 PM
Often times before meals. Paul said to 'pray without ceasing'.
Prayer without ceasing doesn't leave time for a meal, or a life for that matter. There isn't anything preventing kids from saying grace to themselves before eating at school, or even from saying a prayer to themselves before a test. Some people can't grasp the difference between praying in school and praying at school.
BillyBob
06-03-2013, 05:38 PM
Prayer without ceasing doesn't leave time for a meal, or a life for that matter.
Why can't a person be prayerful in everything he does?
Kathianne
06-03-2013, 05:41 PM
Why can't a person be prayerful in everything he does?
Perhaps some can, I fail to see that in either of us though, for examples. Those truly involved in prayer are love bound, that is not what you display here. One does hope though that offline you are a better person. Me too for that matter. :thumb:
Missileman
06-03-2013, 05:48 PM
For those that think others don't have specific times they would like to pray, just like Muslims. If one is a true follower - well, then the school should accommodate these times then too:
Perhaps you have never considered it. There are specific hours of the day ordained of God which can be particularly meaningful to the Christian's prayer life. Just as surely as God has ordained a memorial day of the week for corporate worship (together with annual days of celebration), He also ordained special hours of the day for prayer to bring particular honor to Himself. The three Biblical memorial hours of prayer are specifically the third hour, the sixth hour and the ninth hour of the day, or 9:00 A.M., 12 Noon and 3:00 P.M. These were important prayer disciplines faithfully observed by the Old Testament saints, the New Testament Church and by our Lord Jesus Christ. The hours of Prayer" were continually honored because they were divinely appointed. The practice of observing them is being restored to the prayer system of the Body of Christ.
http://www.awarenessministry.org/biblicalhoursofprayer.htm
And look at a more detailed list on this page:
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/z_daily_office_000_index.htm
You wanna carp about Christians not being allowed to engage in an ancient JEWISH custom? I hear native Americans prayed to the great spirits at 8, 11, and 2. :rolleyes: If we try hard enough, I bet we can fill the rest of the school day with shite other than schoolwork.
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 05:54 PM
You wanna carp about Christians not being allowed to engage in an ancient JEWISH custom? I hear native Americans prayed to the great spirits at 8, 11, and 2. :rolleyes: If we try hard enough, I bet we can fill the rest of the school day with shite other than schoolwork.
So now its "shit" when its Christianity? And what I posted might be Jewish as well but bibli all. Did u address my 2nd link? Or are the schedules for some Christians somehow not allowed?
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 06:05 PM
You wanna carp about Christians not being allowed to engage in an ancient JEWISH custom? I hear native Americans prayed to the great spirits at 8, 11, and 2. :rolleyes: If we try hard enough, I bet we can fill the rest of the school day with shite other than schoolwork.
And FWIW:
from my first link - There are specific hours of the day ordained of God which can be particularly meaningful to the Christian's prayer life.
from my second link -
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Morning: L (http://prayerfoundation.org/lords_prayer_prayer_category.htm)ord's Prayer (http://prayerfoundation.org/lords_prayer_prayer_category.htm)
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Noon: The 23rd Psalm (http://prayerfoundation.org/Psalms/zz_psalm_023.htm)
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Evening: Psalm 117 (http://prayerfoundation.org/Psalms/zz_psalm_117.htm)
BOTH links are in reference to Christians. So try again. It's funny watching people make excuses for one religion and then searching for reasons to hate Christianity. Either way, bias is clear, especially from some who wine the loudest for years about how prayer should never be in schools.
Missileman
06-03-2013, 06:48 PM
And FWIW:
from my first link - There are specific hours of the day ordained of God which can be particularly meaningful to the Christian's prayer life.
from my second link -
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Morning: L (http://prayerfoundation.org/lords_prayer_prayer_category.htm)ord's Prayer (http://prayerfoundation.org/lords_prayer_prayer_category.htm)
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Noon: The 23rd Psalm (http://prayerfoundation.org/Psalms/zz_psalm_023.htm)
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Evening: Psalm 117 (http://prayerfoundation.org/Psalms/zz_psalm_117.htm)
BOTH links are in reference to Christians. So try again. It's funny watching people make excuses for one religion and then searching for reasons to hate Christianity. Either way, bias is clear, especially from some who wine the loudest for years about how prayer should never be in schools.
From your own link:
They were not a part of the Law of
Moses, and nowhere in the Bible is their observance required. They were
observed by the Apostles in the New Testament (see Scripture
references elsewhere on this page) and by the early Church.
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 06:53 PM
From your own link:
I never said it was "required", I simply said that they would like to, as per tradition of course. Muslims are allowed to miss prayer if it's not allowed. If the school was adamant, and told them absolutely not, no way no how, then they are excused from the prayer. Same as my police officer friend who gets a "pass" when he can't pray on the job, or my other friends who work at places that don't allow for it. But of course it's something encouraged. But the school is still making an accommodation for the Muslims, whether a requirement or not, whether they would get a pass or not. Some Christians may like to follow tradition and pray at certain intervals. The school either accommodates religions or not, they shouldn't be in the business of determining which religions books and what not call for prayers, when, where...
Missileman
06-03-2013, 07:09 PM
I never said it was "required", I simply said that they would like to, as per tradition of course. Muslims are allowed to miss prayer if it's not allowed. If the school was adamant, and told them absolutely not, no way no how, then they are excused from the prayer. Same as my police officer friend who gets a "pass" when he can't pray on the job, or my other friends who work at places that don't allow for it. But of course it's something encouraged. But the school is still making an accommodation for the Muslims, whether a requirement or not, whether they would get a pass or not. Some Christians may like to follow tradition and pray at certain intervals. The school either accommodates religions or not, they shouldn't be in the business of determining which religions books and what not call for prayers, when, where...
There is no Christian tradition to pray at certain times of the day. There was a Jewish one. The argument is as contrived as the "atheism is a religion" or "science is a religion" nonsense. Next thing you know, you'll be whining that Muslims are getting to refrain from eating pork at school which is another observance of their religion. You can protest "shrimp" lunches for Christians because it interferes with the Jewish tradition of avoiding seafood. :rolleyes:
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 07:52 PM
There is no Christian tradition to pray at certain times of the day. There was a Jewish one. The argument is as contrived as the "atheism is a religion" or "science is a religion" nonsense. Next thing you know, you'll be whining that Muslims are getting to refrain from eating pork at school which is another observance of their religion. You can protest "shrimp" lunches for Christians because it interferes with the Jewish tradition of avoiding seafood. :rolleyes:
I don't care if you believe it was a part of history or not. It's in the Bible. I believe it would be more up to a Christian if they decided to follow the past traditions from the bible, as opposed to what an atheist has to tell me. But is funny still, how you would go out of your way to show how it's OK for them to make an accommodation for Muslims, but then go out of your way to show how all things Christian should be separated.
The three daily special times of prayer observance recorded in the Bible (in both the Old and New Testaments) were at: 9 A.M., 12:00 P.M. (Noon), and 3 P.M.
BillyBob
06-03-2013, 08:16 PM
I don't care if you believe it was a part of history or not. It's in the Bible. I believe it would be more up to a Christian if they decided to follow the past traditions from the bible, as opposed to what an atheist has to tell me. But is funny still, how you would go out of your way to show how it's OK for them to make an accommodation for Muslims, but then go out of your way to show how all things Christian should be separated.
The three daily special times of prayer observance recorded in the Bible (in both the Old and New Testaments) were at: 9 A.M., 12:00 P.M. (Noon), and 3 P.M.
In the NT? I'd like to see that scripture.
Are you aware of the term 'dispensation'? It's an interesting way to perceive the Bible. Fascinating, actually.
aboutime
06-03-2013, 08:20 PM
I never said it was "required", I simply said that they would like to, as per tradition of course. Muslims are allowed to miss prayer if it's not allowed. If the school was adamant, and told them absolutely not, no way no how, then they are excused from the prayer. Same as my police officer friend who gets a "pass" when he can't pray on the job, or my other friends who work at places that don't allow for it. But of course it's something encouraged. But the school is still making an accommodation for the Muslims, whether a requirement or not, whether they would get a pass or not. Some Christians may like to follow tradition and pray at certain intervals. The school either accommodates religions or not, they shouldn't be in the business of determining which religions books and what not call for prayers, when, where...
jimnyc. Doesn't really matter about special, or required times. What makes the haters so frustrated about Christians is...they, or we, can pray anywhere, any time, and none of them know it. Great way to always experience whatever faith you have. And no reason for anyone to apologize, or make excuses for it.
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 08:21 PM
In the NT? I'd like to see that scripture.
Are you aware of the term 'dispensation'? It's an interesting way to perceive the Bible. Fascinating, actually.
More here:
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/the_threefold_daily_prayers.htm
BillyBob
06-03-2013, 08:27 PM
More here:
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/the_threefold_daily_prayers.htm
That's very interesting, thank you. I asked earlier if you are familiar with 'dispensation'.
jimnyc
06-03-2013, 08:28 PM
That's very interesting, thank you. I asked earlier if you are familiar with 'dispensation'.
Actually, no, but will in a minute after I visit Google!
BillyBob
06-03-2013, 08:56 PM
Actually, no, but will in a minute after I visit Google!
If it interests you, we could start a separate thread for it.
jafar00
06-04-2013, 12:52 AM
This shouldn't matter, but yes, some Christians have set times that they want to pray daily.
As far as I know, it's not compulsory as the 5 daily Islamic prayers are and at fixed times.
Worship at fixed times hath been enjoined on the believers. (4:103)
Let the Muslim kids have a silent prayer as well, they can do without the rug and which way they face. As a Christian, I like to pray in front of an alter, or on a bench for my knee, with a statue of Christ nearby, while crossing my hands with a set of rosary beads - and YES - this is how we are taught. So they should allow that accommodation as well.
Muslims can do without the rug although the place for prostration should be clean (I've used my hat before), and 2 of the 5 daily prayers are silent (except for "Allahu Akbar" and "Sami Allahu liman hamida" when in a group). We are also required to face the Quibla (towards Mecca) so that all Muslims around the world focus to the same place. We also have a certain way of praying.
Often times before meals. Paul said to 'pray without ceasing'.
We also make supplications for certain things too like before eating, when entering and leaving the Mosque, when taking off in a plane etc...
Palestinians have a time honored tradition of arming children, and even using them as suicide bombers. Yep, Americans are capable of taking tasteless pictures - but I sure am glad these same children aren't taught to kill, hate and want to be martyrs.
Can you 100% guarantee that no American kids who accessed guns in their youth later went on to join the Army to go kill some "sand niggers"?
Why can't a person be prayerful in everything he does?
Ameen. The best thing you have said on this forum so far.
You wanna carp about Christians not being allowed to engage in an ancient JEWISH custom? I hear native Americans prayed to the great spirits at 8, 11, and 2. :rolleyes: If we try hard enough, I bet we can fill the rest of the school day with shite other than schoolwork.
Well said. It seems that the Old Testament is irrelevant to Christians until it serves a useful purpose to uphold what is written in there.
I never said it was "required", I simply said that they would like to, as per tradition of course. Muslims are allowed to miss prayer if it's not allowed.
No. Only if we are in a warzone and fear that the enemy will kill us if we do although I am not familiar with the exact ruling regarding this. We are not allowed to miss a prayer and have to do anything we can to be able to do it. We can do 2 prayers together if we are travelling (on a plane) and we can also shorten them so as to not cause extra hardship while travelling.
Missed prayers must always be made up with a lot of repentance.
If the school was adamant, and told them absolutely not, no way no how, then they are excused from the prayer. Same as my police officer friend who gets a "pass" when he can't pray on the job, or my other friends who work at places that don't allow for it. But of course it's something encouraged. But the school is still making an accommodation for the Muslims, whether a requirement or not, whether they would get a pass or not. Some Christians may like to follow tradition and pray at certain intervals. The school either accommodates religions or not, they shouldn't be in the business of determining which religions books and what not call for prayers, when, where...
If I was the kids I would not take no for an answer and as an adult, I have not come across a situation where I cannot offer a prayer at or near it's stated time.
I have prayed in planes in the air, 1/2 way up the Eiffel Tower, even on the grass outside a Church (with the Priest's permission).
I don't care if you believe it was a part of history or not. It's in the Bible. I believe it would be more up to a Christian if they decided to follow the past traditions from the bible, as opposed to what an atheist has to tell me.
So, it would be ok if a Christian decided to kill his son for cursing him, or kills a witch, or stones an adulterer to death, or is not punished for killing his slave provided the slave lives for 2-3 days after a severe beating?
logroller
06-04-2013, 02:56 AM
Because muslims are special.
Are they?
And considering this would be one of the only public schools in the nation affording this accommodation, it's already been shown that tons and tons of kids have been doing just fine negotiating their Muslim prayers up until now. But again, the bottom line is that if you are going to fight to keep prayers out of the classroom, fight to keep prayers out of speeches, out of games, out of graduations - then you don't turn around and give an accommodation to a different religion.
the kids aren't doing it in the classroom (indeed, they must have high grades to be eligible to leave) nor are they giving speeches, during games or graduations.
My kids in grammar school where told they couldn't bless there food before eating , but yes after I went to the school and explained they will bless there food they where then allowed to do so
That's crap; I'm glad you stood fast.
Most of us believe it is good, and would like for Christian prayer in schools too, but it's not allowed. It's equality we're speaking of here, if you accommodate and allow one, simply allow others the same/equivalent. I've got no issue if they allow Muslim kids a chance to pray - as soon as they allow Catholics/Christians equal opportunities/accommodations.
It isn't allowed? I see no mention of Christians being excluded from prayer in the OP.
Oh really? Do these jihadists don't seem to be centered or well behaved?
http://www.nobeliefs.com/ReligiousWar/IslamicJihad.jpg
Of the dozens of schools shootings that have occurred in the US, how many were Muslim?
you are such a lying sack of shit. Christian prayers are not allowed in schools because they are Christian prayers, and some people want them kept out of the schools.
It has nothing to do with groups prayer, nor individual prayer... it's the very idea of prayer at all. the ONLY way your statement would be valid is if Christian prayer by individuals was allowed and Christian group prayer wasn't.
Bologna-- It is allowed. I prayed in school-- My kids pray in school-- To Jesus Our Lord. I was in the federation of Christian athletes and we would lead team prayers before sporting events. So for you to say that Christian prayers aren't allowed is simply untrue. Indeed the article in the OP made no mention of Christians not being allowed to pray in school; it did mention that Christian teachers were bothered by the fact it wasn't a Christian school anymore...wtf does that mean? Was it a christian public school that became secular? It sounds to me like this isn't about accommodation of other beliefs as much as it is allowing them. Freedom is a fickle beast.
jafar00
06-04-2013, 04:59 AM
Freedom is a fickle beast.
Indeed it is.
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 05:28 AM
Well said. It seems that the Old Testament is irrelevant to Christians until it serves a useful purpose to uphold what is written in there.
No, a Christian should be able to pray how and when they want, it has nothing to do with any testament. And if you allow an accommodation to leave class for prayer for one, you should allow for all.
the kids aren't doing it in the classroom (indeed, they must have high grades to be eligible to leave) nor are they giving speeches, during games or graduations.
But they are given an accommodation of leaving the classroom, no other religion is allowed this accommodation.
Prayer without ceasing doesn't leave time for a meal, or a life for that matter. There isn't anything preventing kids from saying grace to themselves before eating at school, or even from saying a prayer to themselves before a test. Some people can't grasp the difference between praying in school and praying at school.
Missleman I have given you a perfect example of a situation that happened to me not something I read so let me try this one more time
My wife and I have taught out children to give thanks for the food they have to eat at each meal and when they did so in school the VP of the school told them they could NOT pray in school that it may offend other students so honestly I don't see the confusion there seems pretty cut and dry to me
But what about at a graduation ceremony or sporting event ? we use to have a prayer before a football game asking that alll playing would be safe but no you cant do that any longer but now they want to make special time for Muslim prayer
Are they?
the kids aren't doing it in the classroom (indeed, they must have high grades to be eligible to leave) nor are they giving speeches, during games or graduations.
That's crap; I'm glad you stood fast.
It isn't allowed? I see no mention of Christians being excluded from prayer in the OP.
Of the dozens of schools shootings that have occurred in the US, how many were Muslim?
Bologna-- It is allowed. I prayed in school-- My kids pray in school-- To Jesus Our Lord. I was in the federation of Christian athletes and we would lead team prayers before sporting events. So for you to say that Christian prayers aren't allowed is simply untrue. Indeed the article in the OP made no mention of Christians not being allowed to pray in school; it did mention that Christian teachers were bothered by the fact it wasn't a Christian school anymore...wtf does that mean? Was it a christian public school that became secular? It sounds to me like this isn't about accommodation of other beliefs as much as it is allowing them. Freedom is a fickle beast.
When I went to school we also prayed before sporting event and other events also but now I have a 10 and a 11 year old and at a baseball game after school at the rec department you have to be careful because you are not suppose to say a prayer before the games( and they are much more lenient than the schools ) , now a child may say a prayer to him/her self but no more may the coach lead a team in prayer , and yes on the baseball team I coached yes we did, one of the coaches led the prayer before each game , it is a rule not enforced to its fullest until someone complains and yes someone will eventually , I know that sounds crazy but just look at the whole Christmas light thing , last year a town in California stopped there tradition of decorating for Christmas due to one complaint
Marcus Aurelius
06-04-2013, 06:55 AM
http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jimnyc http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=643428#post643428)
And FWIW:
from my first link - There are specific hours of the day ordained of God which can be particularly meaningful to the Christian's prayer life.
from my second link -
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Morning: L (http://prayerfoundation.org/lords_prayer_prayer_category.htm)ord's Prayer (http://prayerfoundation.org/lords_prayer_prayer_category.htm)
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Noon: The 23rd Psalm (http://prayerfoundation.org/Psalms/zz_psalm_023.htm)
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/bullet.gif Evening: Psalm 117 (http://prayerfoundation.org/Psalms/zz_psalm_117.htm)
BOTH links are in reference to Christians. So try again. It's funny watching people make excuses for one religion and then searching for reasons to hate Christianity. Either way, bias is clear, especially from some who wine the loudest for years about how prayer should never be in schools.
From your own link:
They were not a part of the Law of
Moses, and nowhere in the Bible is their observance required. They were
observed by the Apostles in the New Testament (see Scripture
references elsewhere on this page) and by the early Church.
MM...are you seriously trying to imply hat since it was from the New testament, and not the old, the practice isn't required?:laugh:
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 06:57 AM
]If I was the kids I would not take no for an answer[/B] and as an adult, I have not come across a situation where I cannot offer a prayer at or near it's stated time.
So tell me - what do other Muslim kids do in the thousands and thousands of other public schools around the nation? Are you advocating that they dismiss school rules and defy the teachers and authorities, and do as they please and just up and leave when it's time to pray?
Surely if you feel that a Muslim should not have to follow rules, and shouldn't take no for an answer, then you also feel Christians that want to go and pray somewhere should do the same, and receive the same treatment. I don't give a crap about specific times for prayers in Islam or not, as everyone is totally different, pray at different times and pray for different reasons. Either you accommodate one or you accommodate all.
Oh, and you are exaggerating anyway, as I have asked of my police friend just a few moments ago. He said it simply need be made up, called "Kada" or "Qada"? But he said he deals with it almost daily when working. And during Ramadan the same - as he must eat/drink at times while on duty, and he simply makes up the fasting. He said the rules of his job, and the rules of schools, should be followed first, that prayers don't outweigh the rules.
If others aren't given equal break times to pray - then the kids can very easily make up their prayers on their own time. And that would be easy, as they have plenty of time in the AM, lunch, after school, before dinner, after dinner, nighttime... Any missed prayer would easily be made up on the same day.
The schools are not there to interpret religion and what is necessary for each individual, what each book calls for, what each sect calls for, what each denomination calls for, what each church calls for - we can be here for weeks. Either you allow prayer or you don't, either you allow time set aside for prayer or you don't.
If one would tell their kids to disobey teachers, telling them they won't take no for an answer, then that person is only teaching that kid that rules don't apply to them. If that's the case, take the kid to a private religious school if he MUST pray on time and their parent is going to pathetically teach them to defy rules and teachers.
Marcus Aurelius
06-04-2013, 06:59 AM
http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=643374#post643374)
you are such a lying sack of shit. Christian prayers are not allowed in schools because they are Christian prayers, and some people want them kept out of the schools.
It has nothing to do with groups prayer, nor individual prayer... it's the very idea of prayer at all. the ONLY way your statement would be valid is if Christian prayer by individuals was allowed and Christian group prayer wasn't.
Bologna-- It is allowed. I prayed in school-- My kids pray in school-- To Jesus Our Lord. I was in the federation of Christian athletes and we would lead team prayers before sporting events. So for you to say that Christian prayers aren't allowed is simply untrue. Indeed the article in the OP made no mention of Christians not being allowed to pray in school; it did mention that Christian teachers were bothered by the fact it wasn't a Christian school anymore...wtf does that mean? Was it a christian public school that became secular? It sounds to me like this isn't about accommodation of other beliefs as much as it is allowing them. Freedom is a fickle beast.
I should have included the word 'organized'. The Muslim kids being allowed set times to pray, as a group, in a set location, is an 'organized' prayer accomodation. You allow one, you allow all, or none.
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 07:02 AM
MM...are you seriously trying to imply hat since it was from the New testament, and not the old, the practice isn't required?:laugh:
What they're trying to say is that the tradition of the three prayers isn't "required", or that it's Jewish based, or some other crap. It's comical as I re-read this thread and see the desire to give reasoning and excuses as to why Muslims should be excused from class, accommodated for their religious beliefs, but that it's ridiculous to think a Christian person would want to pray at set times as well. I know some people who MUST pray prior to meals, and that's their belief. I know some who want to kneel and pray each time, and many times a day, that's their belief. I know of some who have group prayer.
Regardless, it IS in the bible and some follow it to the T. If one is to say that they don't have to, then neither do Muslims. Muslims can easily go around the schedule.
Tyr-Ziu Saxnot
06-04-2013, 08:41 AM
As far as I know, it's not compulsory as the 5 daily Islamic prayers are and at fixed times.
Worship at fixed times hath been enjoined on the believers. (4:103)
Muslims can do without the rug although the place for prostration should be clean (I've used my hat before), and 2 of the 5 daily prayers are silent (except for "Allahu Akbar" and "Sami Allahu liman hamida" when in a group). We are also required to face the Quibla (towards Mecca) so that all Muslims around the world focus to the same place. We also have a certain way of praying.
We also make supplications for certain things too like before eating, when entering and leaving the Mosque, when taking off in a plane etc...
Can you 100% guarantee that no American kids who accessed guns in their youth later went on to join the Army to go kill some "sand niggers"?
Ameen. The best thing you have said on this forum so far.
Well said. It seems that the Old Testament is irrelevant to Christians until it serves a useful purpose to uphold what is written in there.
No. Only if we are in a warzone and fear that the enemy will kill us if we do although I am not familiar with the exact ruling regarding this. We are not allowed to miss a prayer and have to do anything we can to be able to do it. We can do 2 prayers together if we are travelling (on a plane) and we can also shorten them so as to not cause extra hardship while travelling.
Missed prayers must always be made up with a lot of repentance.
If I was the kids I would not take no for an answer and as an adult, I have not come across a situation where I cannot offer a prayer at or near it's stated time.
I have prayed in planes in the air, 1/2 way up the Eiffel Tower, even on the grass outside a Church (with the Priest's permission).
So, it would be ok if a Christian decided to kill his son for cursing him, or kills a witch, or stones an adulterer to death, or is not punished for killing his slave provided the slave lives for 2-3 days after a severe beating?
Jafar you need to understand that Christian means Christ like, a follower of Jesus Christ the Son of the God of Abraham. The New Testament of the bible is the prescribed reading and was the correction for many of the traditions preceding it.
Jesus did away with things like an eye for an eye , stonings for adultery etc.
Previous to his coming man ruled by his own law/traditions but he was sent to show the way and to be the sacrificial lamb.
Your constant references to the Old testament about "christians" is either ignorance on your part or high deception . And possibly a combination of both..
revelarts
06-04-2013, 10:05 AM
You wanna carp about Christians not being allowed to engage in an ancient JEWISH custom? I hear native Americans prayed to the great spirits at 8, 11, and 2. :rolleyes: If we try hard enough, I bet we can fill the rest of the school day with shite other than schoolwork.
There is no Christian tradition to pray at certain times of the day. There was a Jewish one. The argument is as contrived as the "atheism is a religion" or "science is a religion" nonsense. Next thing you know, you'll be whining that Muslims are getting to refrain from eating pork at school which is another observance of their religion. You can protest "shrimp" lunches for Christians because it interferes with the Jewish tradition of avoiding seafood. :rolleyes:
Missle when you become a Christian then you get the right to say what, outside of the scriptures, is required for you.
Some Christians are conscientious objectors to fighting in wars, some are not. that is not something "required" by the old testament law or the new testament Apostles but is a mater of consicience and an understood spiritual obligation by various denominations and individuals NOT even in denominations that teach that doctrine.
Bottom line Missle you don't get to dictate to any Christian what they consider "required". You cannot dictate what is or is not an considered obligatory by a Christian, (Jew, Wicca, native American, etc.
The best you should say , with some humility is, as far as the general Christian teachings go there is no universal practice of required prayers, but there are exceptions.
Abbey Marie
06-04-2013, 11:19 AM
The prayer requirements for Christians doesn't involve a rug and facing toward Mecca. Allowing the Muslims to leave the classroom to attend to their prayers prevents disruption for the remaining students.
What if other children walk by and see those children praying?! Gasp! Surely as much a violation of the so-called "separation of church and state" as a nativity in the town square, no?
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 12:44 PM
What if other children walk by and see those children praying?! Gasp! Surely as much a violation of the so-called "separation of church and state" as a nativity in the town square, no?
And since the article doesn't say Catholics can't pray, so we assume they can, the school won't mind of course when the Christian kids get on bended knee and fold their hands right their in class, so long as they pray to themselves, then give the sign of the cross. Since that would/should be allowed, then I would say the Muslim kids should certainly be allowed to pray as well. :)
aboutime
06-04-2013, 12:47 PM
Jafar you need to understand that Christian means Christ like, a follower of Jesus Christ the Son of the God of Abraham. The New Testament of the bible is the prescribed reading and was the correction for many of the traditions preceding it.
Jesus did away with things like an eye for an eye , stonings for adultery etc.
Previous to his coming man ruled by his own law/traditions but he was sent to show the way and to be the sacrificial lamb.
Your constant references to the Old testament about "christians" is either ignorance on your part or high deception . And possibly a combination of both..
Tyr. Forget it. Telling jafar he needs to do anything is useless. He has been brainwashed, and nothing any of us can say to him will do any good.
It's nothing but BARKING AT THE MOON when it comes to not only jafar, but several others here.
They have one agenda here.
Cause as much hate, and discontent as possible to incite the same kind of hatred they PRACTICE so well.
logroller
06-04-2013, 01:10 PM
No, a Christian should be able to pray how and when they want, it has nothing to do with any testament. And if you allow an accommodation to leave class for prayer for one, you should allow for all.
But they are given an accommodation of leaving the classroom, no other religion is allowed this accommodation.
For one, not all Muslims are given the accommodation. And second, has any other religion asked for such an accommodation? It seems rather petty to complain that another is being accommodated if all one needs to do is ask. I they are refused, then it's unfair treatment and I would oppose that.
Religious accommodation is by no means exclusive to Muslims. My mom had a Jewish employee that routinely, year after year, would use way more than his ample provision of personal days for holy days. He was not only a burden to admin but to his coworkers as well. He would threaten lawsuits on the basis he was persecuted and, guess what, they simply paid him out two years salary plus full retirement just to be rid of him. Their is a large Sikh population where I live and the schools offers vegetarian meals to accommodate them. Has anyone ever worked a job that doesn't pay overtime on December 25? Easter Sunday? Most do. has anyone ever been paid overtime on a Jewish holy day? A muslim holy day? Have your kids' schools not had vacations that coincided with those Christian holy days? Is this not an accommodation for Christians? there was a Supreme Court ruling that allowed a seventh day Adventist the right to have sabbath on Saturday. Is that not an accommodation to a Christian? I could go on and on. Are there antichristian examples? sure there are; but there's innumerable examples of pro-Christian accommodations. I think people are having trouble seeing the forest for the trees; we have a society designed around Christianty. Naturally, less accommodation for Christians is necessary. Now as I said, if and when Christians are not allowed to leave and pray and Muslims are, then you have a salient point; but if not, then this is just arguendo, an argument for argument's sake.
Marcus Aurelius
06-04-2013, 01:17 PM
...It seems that the Old Testament is irrelevant to Christians until it serves a useful purpose to uphold what is written in there....
your double standard in this is mind numbing.
You repeatedly claim certain parts of the Qur'aan are not meant to be followed now, when it serves your purpose, now you accuse Christians of doing the same thing?
Dumb ass.
In any case, the Old Testament was REPLACED by the New testament, but it is not irrelevant. If it was, then that would mean the scriptures about the coming of Jesus Himself were irrelevant. Jesus says in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that i have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them". Jesus fulfills both the "Law" (the Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible where all the law stuff is) and the "Prophets" (the books in the old testament relating to the prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah). He fulfilled the Prophets by making true all the prophesies that were made about the Messiah. He fulfilled the Law by sacrificing himself to atone for our sin, eliminating the need for repeated ritual sacrifices which were required in Jewish law.
logroller
06-04-2013, 01:22 PM
What if other children walk by and see those children praying?! Gasp! Surely as much a violation of the so-called "separation of church and state" as a nativity in the town square, no?
Or a solstice festival.
I prayed at school. My kids pray at school. Admittedly I have been blessed to live in a more affluent neighborhood, and I'm thinking such animosity is fed to some degree by socioeconomic challenges. Re: OP, it's in DC and the one standard I saw mentioned was that the kid needed to have high grades and the suggestion was it inspired those who wished to pray to raise their grades. IMO, the idea that religious expression is used as a carrot is problematic. I have no issue with extracurriculars being contingent upon academic/behavioral performance; but should prayer be treated as an extracurricular activity?
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 01:39 PM
For one, not all Muslims are given the accommodation. And second, has any other religion asked for such an accommodation? It seems rather petty to complain that another is being accommodated if all one needs to do is ask. I they are refused, then it's unfair treatment and I would oppose that.
You're kidding, right? After the way Christian/Catholic prayers have been denied at every angle inside schools, from graduations, speeches, pictures of Jesus, pre-game rituals, in class prayer... In fact, it's MORE than a rarity if I can find an example of a public school allowing for Christian prayer or an accommodation for a prayer. If it's been beat into everyone around the nation in these schools, that they aren't allowed to have it in any of these circumstances, then why would they even seek an accommodation? - other than when they see one being given to another religion, as in this case. But that's why I say - this school should have NO problem with Christians kneeling in their classes, hands folded and eyes closed, performing their prayers, whether short or up to 10 minutes in the class. If they don't want it in the class, then they should have the same opportunity afforded to them as the Muslim kids.
And even if it were just 5 Muslim kids in the particular school, it's still a religious accommodation. If it's just one kid it's the same, and then should be afforded to all. Having the "right" to pray shouldn't be something one has to earn, low scoring students and high performing alike should be able to say their prayers. Or equally deny it in school to all.
aboutime
06-04-2013, 01:44 PM
You're kidding, right? After the way Christian/Catholic prayers have been denied at every angle inside schools, from graduations, speeches, pictures of Jesus, pre-game rituals, in class prayer... In fact, it's MORE than a rarity if I can find an example of a public school allowing for Christian prayer or an accommodation for a prayer. If it's been beat into everyone around the nation in these schools, that they aren't allowed to have it in any of these circumstances, then why would they even seek an accommodation? - other than when they see one being given to another religion, as in this case. But that's why I say - this school should have NO problem with Christians kneeling in their classes, hands folded and eyes closed, performing their prayers, whether short or up to 10 minutes in the class. If they don't want it in the class, then they should have the same opportunity afforded to them as the Muslim kids.
And even if it were just 5 Muslim kids in the particular school, it's still a religious accommodation. If it's just one kid it's the same, and then should be afforded to all. Having the "right" to pray shouldn't be something one has to earn, low scoring students and high performing alike should be able to say their prayers. Or equally deny it in school to all.
Five.
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 01:49 PM
Another thought - the idea of a having a prayer over at a graduation, or at a HS football game - was declared unconstitutional. Different, but yet the same. It stemmed from Christianity and Christian prayers. It was so opposed that the courts had to intervene to make that ruling. It's been made clear over the years that any prayer outside of silent prayer was "offensive to some" and not allowed. But here we are with a school making an exception/accommodation for Muslim children.
I've looked around at as many articles as I could find on this story. Some were the same wording (AP stories) and others were written totally different. If the same 'option' were available to Christians, it's odd that they would go out of their way to talk about the accommodation for the Muslims and not mention that it's available to everyone. And not in any of the articles. But there is TON of talk around the net just like we are all having here. If it was equally available to all, one would think the school would have pitched in by now to clear up the misunderstanding!
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 01:49 PM
Five.
What does that mean?
aboutime
06-04-2013, 01:51 PM
What does that mean?
Hint. FIVE days.
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 01:52 PM
Hint. FIVE days.
5 days? I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. What's in 5 days?
aboutime
06-04-2013, 01:54 PM
5 days? I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. What's in 5 days?
Never mind.
logroller
06-04-2013, 03:59 PM
You're kidding, right? After the way Christian/Catholic prayers have been denied at every angle inside schools, from graduations, speeches, pictures of Jesus, pre-game rituals, in class prayer...
In fact, it's MORE than a rarity if I can find an example of a public school allowing for Christian prayer or an accommodation for a prayer. If it's been beat into everyone around the nation in these schools, that they aren't allowed to have it in any of these circumstances, then why would they even seek an accommodation? - other than when they see one being given to another religion, as in this case. But that's why I say - this school should have NO problem with Christians kneeling in their classes, hands folded and eyes closed, performing their prayers, whether short or up to 10 minutes in the class. If they don't want it in the class, then they should have the same opportunity afforded to them as the Muslim kids.
And even if it were just 5 Muslim kids in the particular school, it's still a religious accommodation. If it's just one kid it's the same, and then should be afforded to all. Having the "right" to pray shouldn't be something one has to earn, low scoring students and high performing alike should be able to say their prayers. Or equally deny it in school to all.
No I'm no kidding at all.
Regarding unequal treatment--
Are Christian kids in that school disallowed from leaving class to pray-- yes or no?
If not, then the argument is moot.
To the second point, that of establishment. Do you mean to tell me that a student being excused to leave class and pray is no different than a prayer over the schools PA system? or being led by a teacher? Or a teacher having a crucifix on the wall?
I'm keenly aware of the contextual differences between the examples you offer for comparison. And this has been ruled upon long before our debate here, so just to rehash
in Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577. There, in concluding that a prayer delivered by a rabbi at a graduation ceremony violated the Establishment Clause, the Court held that, at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way that establishes a state religion or religious faith, or tends to do so, id., at 587. The District argues unpersuasively that these principles are inapplicable because the policy's messages are private student speech, not public speech. The delivery of a message such as the invocation here-on school property, at school-sponsored events, over the school's public address system, by a speaker representing the student body, under the supervision of school faculty, and pursuant to a school policy that explicitly and implicitly encourages public prayer-is not properly characterized as "private" speech
So that's the minimum-- is this school establishing a state religion or religious faith by allowing certain students to leave class and pray?
No. A teacher having a religious symbol in plain view or leading a prayer clearly runs afoul of this. I am sympathetic to the argument that kids being excused from class to do something that isn't school-sponsored may run afoul of the pedagological interests; but then I could argue there are innumerable examples, even going to the bathroom, that need not be accommodated. Anyone with any experience with kids knows that some will abuse such privileges; and I dare I say it is a right to use the bathroom. Yet allowed it is....usually.
Interestingly, the 2000 supreme court case that forbid student led prayers over the public announcement system was levied by a Mormon and a Catholic. So this isn't just an issue among non-Christians being aggrieved.
There's a definite difference between a prayer over the public announcement system and kids being allowed to pray. There's a difference between kids being excused to pray and having a designated moment in class to pray. These differences matter, both logically and legally.
As for the one and all, (which is a fair argument) -- what about those kids who don't pray-- should they be forsaken their classroom learning time because other's prefer to pray?
Surely not.
Or should those who wish to pray just bust out their rug and go about it in the middle of a lesson? That would be distracting.
There's a balance between establishment and free exercise that can be found, but not through moot points on Christians being forbidden to do the same as Muslims when the examples of Christian predominance throughout our social character abound. It may be waning to some degree, but what is waning is not the right to express one's beliefs, Christian or otherwise, but rather it is the power to proselytize from the government stage that people have taken issue.
Missileman
06-04-2013, 05:03 PM
I don't care if you believe it was a part of history or not. It's in the Bible. I believe it would be more up to a Christian if they decided to follow the past traditions from the bible, as opposed to what an atheist has to tell me. But is funny still, how you would go out of your way to show how it's OK for them to make an accommodation for Muslims, but then go out of your way to show how all things Christian should be separated.
The three daily special times of prayer observance recorded in the Bible (in both the Old and New Testaments) were at: 9 A.M., 12:00 P.M. (Noon), and 3 P.M.
I never said it's not in the Bible. Even your own source says that the NT reference is someone following a Jewish tradition. Bottom line is your arguments that specific prayer times are a Christian tradition aren't true.
Missileman
06-04-2013, 05:05 PM
What if other children walk by and see those children praying?! Gasp! Surely as much a violation of the so-called "separation of church and state" as a nativity in the town square, no?
Nope. As I stated earlier, there's a difference between praying IN school and praying AT school.
red states rule
06-04-2013, 05:14 PM
Americans take stupid pictures too.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/kids-with-guns.jpg
Unlike with the terrorists, our children are not conditioned to hate Jews, and Americans
And are not conditioned to believe murdering innocent people in the name of Allah is a good thing
fj1200
06-04-2013, 05:14 PM
5 days? I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. What's in 5 days?
I believe that he is counting up. Presumably it's day five of the coming leftie invasion.
Missileman
06-04-2013, 05:15 PM
Missleman I have given you a perfect example of a situation that happened to me not something I read so let me try this one more time
My wife and I have taught out children to give thanks for the food they have to eat at each meal and when they did so in school the VP of the school told them they could NOT pray in school that it may offend other students so honestly I don't see the confusion there seems pretty cut and dry to me
But what about at a graduation ceremony or sporting event ? we use to have a prayer before a football game asking that alll playing would be safe but no you cant do that any longer but now they want to make special time for Muslim prayer
The VP was one of those who can't distinguish between IN and AT. The VP was wrong.
The school cannot prevent students from praying before the game, however, the school can't legally intitiate it. I personally have no problem at all with students praying. I only have a problem with teachers/school admin/school boards who would use the classroom as an opportunity to proseltyze and/or indoctrinate. I don't take issue with religious symbols at school either as long as the playing field is equal for all religions.
red states rule
06-04-2013, 05:23 PM
Here is a win for the good guys and a well deserved loss for the "offended"
A Texas court judge ruled today that the signs displayed by high school cheerleaders quoting biblical verses were "constitutionally permissible," and that the Kountze High School cheerleaders could continue to display them at the school's football games.
In his ruling, State District Judge Steve Thomas said that no law "prohibits cheerleaders from using religious-themed banners at school sporting events.
"The evidence in this case confirms that religion messages expressed on run-through banners have not created, and will not create, an establishment of religion in the Kountze community."
The ruling ended a controversial chapter in the small community of Kountze, about 95 miles northeast of Houston.
"We're excited, relieved, and glad it's over with," Coti Matthews, mother of one of the cheerleaders, told ABC News.com today.
"We're very thrilled that the judge ruled in our favor that girls will be able to use banners with Scripture during next season's football season," Attorney David Starnes, who represented the squad in court, told ABCNews.com today.
The high school cheerleaders had sued the Kountze Independent School District after after they were told they could no longer display the banners with religious messages over arguments that it violated the First Amendment.
"The response was, this was student led, student initiated, so therefore it was private student speech," Starnes said.
Thomas Brandt, the lead attorney representing the school district, told ABCNews.com, "The school district is in the middle of this debate. They reject both of the extremes. We adopt a middle. ... We think based on the evidence, that after studying the issue, our community was perceiving the ban as hostility toward religion."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-rules-favor-cheerleaders-religious-banners/story?id=19136437#.Ua6Sxv3n-M8
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 05:25 PM
No I'm no kidding at all.
Regarding unequal treatment--
Are Christian kids in that school disallowed from leaving class to pray-- yes or no?
If not, then the argument is moot.
To the second point, that of establishment. Do you mean to tell me that a student being excused to leave class and pray is no different than a prayer over the schools PA system? or being led by a teacher? Or a teacher having a crucifix on the wall?
I'm keenly aware of the contextual differences between the examples you offer for comparison. And this has been ruled upon long before our debate here, so just to rehash
So that's the minimum-- is this school establishing a state religion or religious faith by allowing certain students to leave class and pray?
No. A teacher having a religious symbol in plain view or leading a prayer clearly runs afoul of this. I am sympathetic to the argument that kids being excused from class to do something that isn't school-sponsored may run afoul of the pedagological interests; but then I could argue there are innumerable examples, even going to the bathroom, that need not be accommodated. Anyone with any experience with kids knows that some will abuse such privileges; and I dare I say it is a right to use the bathroom. Yet allowed it is....usually.
Interestingly, the 2000 supreme court case that forbid student led prayers over the public announcement system was levied by a Mormon and a Catholic. So this isn't just an issue among non-Christians being aggrieved.
There's a definite difference between a prayer over the public announcement system and kids being allowed to pray. There's a difference between kids being excused to pray and having a designated moment in class to pray. These differences matter, both logically and legally.
As for the one and all, (which is a fair argument) -- what about those kids who don't pray-- should they be forsaken their classroom learning time because other's prefer to pray?
Surely not.
Or should those who wish to pray just bust out their rug and go about it in the middle of a lesson? That would be distracting.
There's a balance between establishment and free exercise that can be found, but not through moot points on Christians being forbidden to do the same as Muslims when the examples of Christian predominance throughout our social character abound. It may be waning to some degree, but what is waning is not the right to express one's beliefs, Christian or otherwise, but rather it is the power to proselytize from the government stage that people have taken issue.
I don't believe they are, as the article only noted Muslims being able to do so. Nor has any other article. But it would be a bit dumb to assume something is allowed, simply because something wasn't said saying it wasn't allowed. I guess Christians can have mass prayer over loudspeakers in this particular school too, and prayer lead events in the auditorium, as it doesn't say they didn't ask and it doesn't say it's not allowed. No other school in the nation am I aware of will allow students a break from attending class in order to pray. In fact, this revelation about Muslims being able to do so is the first I've ever heard of any student in a public school being exempt from an amount of class time on order to go pray. Logic would dictate that if it were allowed for other religions, one of hundreds of articles would mention as much.
What I mean to say is that all other forms of religious displays and prayers are kept out of school, except for this instance. To say "Christians are allowed to pray in school too" - when that means they can silently not offend anyone else - is much different than a student being treated like he achieved something and can therefore leave the class to pray as a reward of sorts.
As to what happens to the kids who don't pray - they would stand in the same place whether only Muslims left, or if all those who pray left. I assume the class moves forward, but the students leaving are exempt from that 10 minutes.
The rest is mumbo jumbo and predominance stuff is absurd. When it comes to respecting ones religion and accommodations of one religion - they should all be treated 100% equally.
Missileman
06-04-2013, 05:25 PM
No I'm no kidding at all.
Regarding unequal treatment--
Are Christian kids in that school disallowed from leaving class to pray-- yes or no?
If not, then the argument is moot.
To the second point, that of establishment. Do you mean to tell me that a student being excused to leave class and pray is no different than a prayer over the schools PA system? or being led by a teacher? Or a teacher having a crucifix on the wall?
I'm keenly aware of the contextual differences between the examples you offer for comparison. And this has been ruled upon long before our debate here, so just to rehash
So that's the minimum-- is this school establishing a state religion or religious faith by allowing certain students to leave class and pray?
No. A teacher having a religious symbol in plain view or leading a prayer clearly runs afoul of this. I am sympathetic to the argument that kids being excused from class to do something that isn't school-sponsored may run afoul of the pedagological interests; but then I could argue there are innumerable examples, even going to the bathroom, that need not be accommodated. Anyone with any experience with kids knows that some will abuse such privileges; and I dare I say it is a right to use the bathroom. Yet allowed it is....usually.
Interestingly, the 2000 supreme court case that forbid student led prayers over the public announcement system was levied by a Mormon and a Catholic. So this isn't just an issue among non-Christians being aggrieved.
There's a definite difference between a prayer over the public announcement system and kids being allowed to pray. There's a difference between kids being excused to pray and having a designated moment in class to pray. These differences matter, both logically and legally.
As for the one and all, (which is a fair argument) -- what about those kids who don't pray-- should they be forsaken their classroom learning time because other's prefer to pray?
Surely not.
Or should those who wish to pray just bust out their rug and go about it in the middle of a lesson? That would be distracting.
There's a balance between establishment and free exercise that can be found, but not through moot points on Christians being forbidden to do the same as Muslims when the examples of Christian predominance throughout our social character abound. It may be waning to some degree, but what is waning is not the right to express one's beliefs, Christian or otherwise, but rather it is the power to proselytize from the government stage that people have taken issue.
:clap:
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 05:27 PM
I never said it's not in the Bible. Even your own source says that the NT reference is someone following a Jewish tradition. Bottom line is your arguments that specific prayer times are a Christian tradition aren't true.
And yet there is, forgive me if I laugh at an atheist trying to tell me what I know about my religious habits and upbringing, and also insulting my intelligence by not reading the links I have posted backing up the tradition. And quite frankly, it matters not. Christians also have a tradition of kneeling with their hands crossed and eyes closed, in silent prayer for anywhere from 30 seconds to 5 minutes or longer. So tell me, will this be allowed in the class while the teacher is teaching, or do they get time out of class as well?
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 05:29 PM
Bottom line is your arguments that specific prayer times are a Christian tradition aren't true.
BB specifically asked for more on this earlier in the thread, and I followed up with yet another link for him to read on it. The fact that you are basically calling me a liar? Sorry if I laugh at the uneducated and uninformed atheist who scowls at everything Christian, even the things he is clueless about.
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 05:33 PM
Bottom line is your arguments that specific prayer times are a Christian tradition aren't true.
As for your repeated posts telling me that I am lying, try reading instead of blurting out garbage. If you're too dense to understand what this all means, and that while not commanded, IS in the bible and IS a tradition for many to pray at specific times. An atheist acting like a scholar on things religious, is, well...
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/the_threefold_daily_prayers.htm
Abbey Marie
06-04-2013, 05:35 PM
Nope. As I stated earlier, there's a difference between praying IN school and praying AT school.
And what exactly do you mean?
aboutime
06-04-2013, 05:36 PM
All of you should just STOP. Right where you are. Go back and read all of the dumb stuff you have found so many reasons to argue about on this thread.
At the end of the day. What has any ONE of you accomplished here? Other than making absolute fools out of one-another???
And if you include me. That's fine. The TRUTH has never hurt me, and never will.
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 05:39 PM
All of you should just STOP. Right where you are. Go back and read all of the dumb stuff you have found so many reasons to argue about on this thread.
At the end of the day. What has any ONE of you accomplished here? Other than making absolute fools out of one-another???
And if you include me. That's fine. The TRUTH has never hurt me, and never will.
I've seen you do this at least a dozen times. People like to debate and we KNOW that very rarely will anyone ever change their mind. But we still debate. Should we ask the same of you when you post incessant stuff about Obama? Do you think you're changing someone's mind when you post? Honestly, I'm not sure what a post like yours is supposed to accomplish here.
Abbey Marie
06-04-2013, 05:41 PM
I think it is absolutely ASTOUNDING that the people who are defending this school's accommodation of Muslim prayer, are the very same people who have continually argued that we should not allow Christian prayer in school. One would think they could be just a tad consistent, to avoid looking hypocritical at least. Probably just another sign of the times in which we live.
aboutime
06-04-2013, 05:43 PM
I've seen you do this at least a dozen times. People like to debate and we KNOW that very rarely will anyone ever change their mind. But we still debate. Should we ask the same of you when you post incessant stuff about Obama? Do you think you're changing someone's mind when you post? Honestly, I'm not sure what a post like yours is supposed to accomplish here.
I posted my OPINION jim. That's what YOUR FORUM is for, and how it is supposed to be used.
No. I know I am not changing anyone's mind. That's why, what I said was...MY OPINION.
Further. Please share what ANY POST, or THREAD is supposed to accomplish here?
If I have done it a dozen times before. Count this as 13.
P.S. You normally WARN me about arguments being taken to the CAGE.
I merely used your tactic of telling people about the arguments.
Abbey Marie
06-04-2013, 06:04 PM
Hint. FIVE days.
In 5 days it will be exactly 6 months to my birthday. I'm sure that is what you meant, right? ;)
aboutime
06-04-2013, 06:07 PM
In 5 days it will be exactly 6 months to my birthday. I'm sure that is what you meant, right? ;)
SOUNDS GOOD Abbey. Remind us the day before. And, just in case I forget. Happy Birthday.
Abbey Marie
06-04-2013, 06:18 PM
SOUNDS GOOD Abbey. Remind us the day before. And, just in case I forget. Happy Birthday.
It's in December, but thanks!
BillyBob
06-04-2013, 06:27 PM
It's in December, but thanks!
Uh oh, that is a pagan month! Be Careful!!!
Missileman
06-04-2013, 06:56 PM
As for your repeated posts telling me that I am lying, try reading instead of blurting out garbage. If you're too dense to understand what this all means, and that while not commanded, IS in the bible and IS a tradition for many to pray at specific times. An atheist acting like a scholar on things religious, is, well...
http://prayerfoundation.org/dailyoffice/the_threefold_daily_prayers.htm
/sigh
When we read of the Apostles (http://www.debatepolicy.com/how_apostles_died.htm) in the New Testament
praying at the Hours of Prayer: 9 a.m., Noon, and 3 p.m., we think, well,
of course, they were Jewish (http://www.debatepolicy.com/jewish_judaism_related_pages_index.htm). As Christians (http://www.debatepolicy.com/christian_history_pages_index.htm), we
don't observe these times of prayer because we're not under the
Law.
It's right there in plain English in the MIDDLE OF YOUR LINK
Missileman
06-04-2013, 07:02 PM
And what exactly do you mean?
"In school" as I'm arguing it is teacher led, or school led, or initiated by the faculty. Praying silently while "at school" is a totally different matter.
BillyBob
06-04-2013, 07:19 PM
"In school" as I'm arguing it is teacher led, or school led, or initiated by the faculty. Praying silently while "at school" is a totally different matter.
Why can't students pray together aloud?
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 07:23 PM
/sigh
When we read of the Apostles (http://www.debatepolicy.com/how_apostles_died.htm) in the New Testament
praying at the Hours of Prayer: 9 a.m., Noon, and 3 p.m., we think, well,
of course, they were Jewish (http://www.debatepolicy.com/jewish_judaism_related_pages_index.htm). As Christians (http://www.debatepolicy.com/christian_history_pages_index.htm), we
don't observe these times of prayer because we're not under the
Law.
It's right there in plain English in the MIDDLE OF YOUR LINK
Try reading the entire page and all of the associated verses. You're centering on one line thinking you found a gotcha, when 99% of the page is about the prayer times marked in the Bible. Many people to this day say the Lords Prayer at certain times, every day. Or like my Grandmother, who performs the rosary at a specific time, every day. Not being under law or commanded to do so hardly means that it's not something rooted in Christians, as to their daily prayers, how many, which prayers specifically. Some have a multitude of prayer that get stated daily, and they change for the entire month. No one size fits all, but the word of the Bible and prayers do, for Christians at least. As stated also on the same link, showing how it can be various forms of prayer for the times:
As a matter of fact, the three daily prayer-times of the Apostles in the New Testament and of the early Christians, consisted of praying first the Lord's Prayer (http://prayerfoundation.org/lords_prayer_prayer_category.htm) at the three daily times of 9am, Noon, and 3pm; which might be followed according to individual choice (and available time or inclination) with Psalms, Hymns, spiritual songs, and personal prayer.
jimnyc
06-04-2013, 07:25 PM
Why can't students pray together aloud?
Some feel it's SO offensive to the extent that there would be long lasting harm as a result. Tolerate some things but others must be silent and away from others. Don't want to offend!!
Missileman
06-04-2013, 07:29 PM
Why can't students pray together aloud?
If it's not in class, who cares?
BillyBob
06-04-2013, 07:47 PM
If it's not in class, who cares?
Libs. I certainly don't care.
Why shouldn't teachers pray with them?
BillyBob
06-04-2013, 07:52 PM
Some feel it's SO offensive to the extent that there would be long lasting harm as a result. Tolerate some things but others must be silent and away from others. Don't want to offend!!
If rights and liberty can be taken away simply because someone is offended, then we are doomed as a society. Ironically, I doubt that any number of offended Americans will be enough to stop the exceptions made for muslims.
Missileman
06-04-2013, 08:08 PM
Libs. I certainly don't care.
Why shouldn't teachers pray with them?
Outside the classroom, I can think of reasons why it wouldn't be a great idea, but who cares?
BillyBob
06-04-2013, 08:13 PM
Outside the classroom, I can think of reasons why it wouldn't be a great idea, but who cares?
I would venture to say that it wasn't all that long ago when teachers were praying with students daily.
However, in these liberal times I wouldn't want my kids being taught anything religious by some government-paid teacher. [We homeschooled our kids.]
Missileman
06-04-2013, 08:50 PM
However, in these liberal times I wouldn't want my kids being taught anything religious by some government-paid teacher. [We homeschooled our kids.]
Sounds sensible.
jafar00
06-04-2013, 10:10 PM
For one, not all Muslims are given the accommodation. And second, has any other religion asked for such an accommodation? It seems rather petty to complain that another is being accommodated if all one needs to do is ask. I they are refused, then it's unfair treatment and I would oppose that.
Religious accommodation is by no means exclusive to Muslims. My mom had a Jewish employee that routinely, year after year, would use way more than his ample provision of personal days for holy days. He was not only a burden to admin but to his coworkers as well. He would threaten lawsuits on the basis he was persecuted and, guess what, they simply paid him out two years salary plus full retirement just to be rid of him. Their is a large Sikh population where I live and the schools offers vegetarian meals to accommodate them. Has anyone ever worked a job that doesn't pay overtime on December 25? Easter Sunday? Most do. has anyone ever been paid overtime on a Jewish holy day? A muslim holy day? Have your kids' schools not had vacations that coincided with those Christian holy days? Is this not an accommodation for Christians? there was a Supreme Court ruling that allowed a seventh day Adventist the right to have sabbath on Saturday. Is that not an accommodation to a Christian? I could go on and on. Are there antichristian examples? sure there are; but there's innumerable examples of pro-Christian accommodations. I think people are having trouble seeing the forest for the trees; we have a society designed around Christianty. Naturally, less accommodation for Christians is necessary. Now as I said, if and when Christians are not allowed to leave and pray and Muslims are, then you have a salient point; but if not, then this is just arguendo, an argument for argument's sake.
You made a very good point there are accommodating for Christian holidays, yet denying the rest.
The US should look to Malaysia for inspiration. Everyone regardless of religion gets each other's religious days off. Christmas, Mawlid, Eid, Chinese New Year, Deepavali etc... All national holidays.
logroller
06-04-2013, 11:46 PM
Another thought - the idea of a having a prayer over at a graduation, or at a HS football game - was declared unconstitutional. Different, but yet the same. It stemmed from Christianity and Christian prayers. It was so opposed that the courts had to intervene to make that ruling. It's been made clear over the years that any prayer outside of silent prayer was "offensive to some" and not allowed. But here we are with a school making an exception/accommodation for Muslim children.
I've looked around at as many articles as I could find on this story. Some were the same wording (AP stories) and others were written totally different. If the same 'option' were available to Christians, it's odd that they would go out of their way to talk about the accommodation for the Muslims and not mention that it's available to everyone. And not in any of the articles. But there is TON of talk around the net just like we are all having here. If it was equally available to all, one would think the school would have pitched in by now to clear up the misunderstanding!
The whole "it's offensive" is mostly rubbish. It certainly can be offensive, but by and large it is not. I guarantee you that in locker rooms across this nation kids are praying. And it's long been said that so long as there are tests in school, there's gonna be prayer. As for the graduation/football games, it's over a public announcement system. There is a difference between a private prayer and one made to the public; you know there is. When such is done publicly at a school-sanctioned event by a school-recognized speaker, that's gonna raise some red flags on establishment. Those red flags are warranted, do you really want a public school teaching religious beliefs or is it a private matter?
As to the bold, it is odd, and that leads me to believe there's likely an agenda afoot. If this really were about equal accommodations, the Christian kids/parents in the school would have requested similar and the story would have surely reported that Christian kids were/weren't accommodated if that were the case; but it wasn't reported. So either every reporter failed to investigate what is seemingly a rather overt issue of equal treatment, or this is just a hyped-up story about why Muslims shouldn't be accommodated at all and nothing to do with preferential treatment. But hey, who can blame them-- if they actually started reporting the whole story or those stories with merit they'd find themselves subject to a federal investigation.
red states rule
06-05-2013, 02:21 AM
It's in December, but thanks!
That was a great Christmas present for your family Abbey
red states rule
06-05-2013, 02:25 AM
I look forward to the "tolerance" of Muslims and their buddies on the left when it comes to kids singing Christmas Carols in a school Christmas play
or wanting to hand out Christmas cards to their teachers and classmates
or decorating the classroom with a Christmas theme
The offended will once again scream at the top of their lungs in protest and threaten a lawsuit as they always do every Christmas season
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 10:53 AM
I look forward to the "tolerance" of Muslims and their buddies on the left when it comes to kids singing Christmas Carols in a school Christmas play
Or maybe wearing a shirt with Jesus on it, or an American Flag?
The play you speak of would be optional, and not over a public address system - and yet these things are being shut down left and right. Hell, they even take harmless songs and force the change of words so as not to offend. And you speak of tolerance? Jafar has the 'nads to speak of equality of religions in here - holy hell - imagine someone in an Islamic country wanting an accommodation for various religions outside of Islam? LOL Many places they will cut your head off for just BEING a Christian, letting alone wanting an accommodation in schools. I wonder how many people get off for the various religious holidays in the many Islamic countries? It's funny watching someone yearn for further equality for kids or people in the USA - while the other countries are literally killing people for their religion.
Log - you don't want us to say Christians are denied the same - because it isn't in the article, right? But then you lay down 'assumptions' as to how if this really were about equal accommodation, the parents would have... Are you not reading something that isn't in the article? Maybe a logical conclusion you came to based on the facts? That there is LIKELY an agenda afoot? Why shoot down others with your questioning, only to turn around and do the same? If it's fair of you to do that - I think it's MORE, MUCH MORE logical that Christians are NOT being given the same accommodation, or it would have been reported. I mean, if there were an agenda and the other things you speak of, I don't see it in the article anywhere? :thumb:
Marcus Aurelius
06-05-2013, 11:36 AM
I think it is absolutely ASTOUNDING that the people who are defending this school's accommodation of Muslim prayer, are the very same people who have continually argued that we should not allow Christian prayer in school. One would think they could be just a tad consistent, to avoid looking hypocritical at least. Probably just another sign of the times in which we live.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
Marcus Aurelius
06-05-2013, 11:38 AM
You made a very good point there are accommodating for Christian holidays, yet denying the rest.
The US should look to Malaysia for inspiration. Everyone regardless of religion gets each other's religious days off. Christmas, Mawlid, Eid, Chinese New Year, Deepavali etc... All national holidays.
yes, let us look to the land of caning people of different religions, women who piss men off, etc, for inspiration.
Dumb ass.
Abbey Marie
06-05-2013, 01:07 PM
"In school" as I'm arguing it is teacher led, or school led, or initiated by the faculty. Praying silently while "at school" is a totally different matter.
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks. :cool:
Abbey Marie
06-05-2013, 01:19 PM
Try reading the entire page and all of the associated verses. You're centering on one line thinking you found a gotcha, when 99% of the page is about the prayer times marked in the Bible. Many people to this day say the Lords Prayer at certain times, every day. Or like my Grandmother, who performs the rosary at a specific time, every day. Not being under law or commanded to do so hardly means that it's not something rooted in Christians, as to their daily prayers, how many, which prayers specifically. Some have a multitude of prayer that get stated daily, and they change for the entire month. No one size fits all, but the word of the Bible and prayers do, for Christians at least. As stated also on the same link, showing how it can be various forms of prayer for the times:
As a matter of fact, the three daily prayer-times of the Apostles in the New Testament and of the early Christians, consisted of praying first the Lord's Prayer (http://prayerfoundation.org/lords_prayer_prayer_category.htm) at the three daily times of 9am, Noon, and 3pm; which might be followed according to individual choice (and available time or inclination) with Psalms, Hymns, spiritual songs, and personal prayer.
I would further argue that it is more meaningful and more "needed" to pray without being commanded to do so. If a child feels a need to pray before an exam, or to say a heartfelt thanks to God for something that happens at school, or pray before lunch, isn't that arguably more spiritually important than, "Uh oh, my religion says that I HAVE to go pray to my God right now!"?
My opinion is that our children should absolutely have the freedom of religion to pray when they want, but they should not disrupt the class or take away from class time to do so. Anyone who needs more than that, should go to a religious school or home school, and have at it. Jeff's story is a great example of how separation of church and state has run amok. And when juxtaposed with this Muslim accommodation is also an example of how Christians have been targeted.
And it's really more than time to stop penalizing Christians for having relatively low-key and varied religious practices.
logroller
06-05-2013, 02:29 PM
Or maybe wearing a shirt with Jesus on it, or an American Flag?
The play you speak of would be optional, and not over a public address system - and yet these things are being shut down left and right. Hell, they even take harmless songs and force the change of words so as not to offend. And you speak of tolerance? Jafar has the 'nads to speak of equality of religions in here - holy hell - imagine someone in an Islamic country wanting an accommodation for various religions outside of Islam? LOL Many places they will cut your head off for just BEING a Christian, letting alone wanting an accommodation in schools. I wonder how many people get off for the various religious holidays in the many Islamic countries? It's funny watching someone yearn for further equality for kids or people in the USA - while the other countries are literally killing people for their religion.
Log - you don't want us to say Christians are denied the same - because it isn't in the article, right? But then you lay down 'assumptions' as to how if this really were about equal accommodation, the parents would have... Are you not reading something that isn't in the article? Maybe a logical conclusion you came to based on the facts? That there is LIKELY an agenda afoot? Why shoot down others with your questioning, only to turn around and do the same? If it's fair of you to do that - I think it's MORE, MUCH MORE logical that Christians are NOT being given the same accommodation, or it would have been reported. I mean, if there were an agenda and the other things you speak of, I don't see it in the article anywhere? :thumb:
I'll go back and look and see if I was the one who introduced unequal treatment; if it was, I'll eat crow. But if not...well, then, the suggestion was not mine alone. Quite frankly I don't think it matters who brought it up; the implication of unfair treatment pervade the public forum on religious accommodations. So I believe it's a fair point (No pun intended), and one the storyteller would be remiss to not consider as relevant enough to warrant mentioning.
As to my 'assumption': were a christian wanton of prayer time they would pursue it. Do you believe that to be an incredulous assumption? Because I believe it goes without saying that if someone wants that which another has, they would pursue it. Conversely, if they do not pursue it, then they don't really want it. Of course, there's always bitching about who has what and how that's unfair...and in this case, thats exactly what we see, only not from the students, but the teachers. Now I'm amenable to the fact that it not being mentioned (Christian exclusion) does not imply it didn't happen; but I might remind the forum of the concept of tort. Tort means someone is harmed; and based on the reports, no one has been. So where's the beef? I feel like Wendy's all of sudden:thumb:
Missileman
06-05-2013, 03:13 PM
Log - you don't want us to say Christians are denied the same - because it isn't in the article, right? But then you lay down 'assumptions' as to how if this really were about equal accommodation, the parents would have... Are you not reading something that isn't in the article? Maybe a logical conclusion you came to based on the facts? That there is LIKELY an agenda afoot? Why shoot down others with your questioning, only to turn around and do the same? If it's fair of you to do that - I think it's MORE, MUCH MORE logical that Christians are NOT being given the same accommodation, or it would have been reported. I mean, if there were an agenda and the other things you speak of, I don't see it in the article anywhere? :thumb:
You mean like your assumption that there are Christian kids who want to follow Jewish tradition to pray at 9, 12, and 3 but aren't being accommodated in the same manner as the Muslim kids? :poke:
red states rule
06-05-2013, 03:18 PM
Or maybe wearing a shirt with Jesus on it, or an American Flag?
The play you speak of would be optional, and not over a public address system - and yet these things are being shut down left and right. Hell, they even take harmless songs and force the change of words so as not to offend. And you speak of tolerance? Jafar has the 'nads to speak of equality of religions in here - holy hell - imagine someone in an Islamic country wanting an accommodation for various religions outside of Islam? LOL Many places they will cut your head off for just BEING a Christian, letting alone wanting an accommodation in schools. I wonder how many people get off for the various religious holidays in the many Islamic countries? It's funny watching someone yearn for further equality for kids or people in the USA - while the other countries are literally killing people for their religion.
Log - you don't want us to say Christians are denied the same - because it isn't in the article, right? But then you lay down 'assumptions' as to how if this really were about equal accommodation, the parents would have... Are you not reading something that isn't in the article? Maybe a logical conclusion you came to based on the facts? That there is LIKELY an agenda afoot? Why shoot down others with your questioning, only to turn around and do the same? If it's fair of you to do that - I think it's MORE, MUCH MORE logical that Christians are NOT being given the same accommodation, or it would have been reported. I mean, if there were an agenda and the other things you speak of, I don't see it in the article anywhere? :thumb:
http://www.allrightmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/ObamaSantaListW.jpg
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 04:02 PM
You mean like your assumption that there are Christian kids who want to follow Jewish tradition to pray at 9, 12, and 3 but aren't being accommodated in the same manner as the Muslim kids? :poke:
Sorry, the prayers listed and offered have nothing to do with Jewish folks. Nor do the hymns. Nor do the prayers that are "supposed" to be read aloud, and not silently, like the Lord's Prayer, for example. The fact that an atheist, is too ignorant, or too dumb, to read the rest of the page is not my problem. The fact that the ignorant didn't follow earlier links I posted, or actually look up the 3 prayers, is not surprising.
Here's another - look closely at the link title - http://www.atotheword.com/2010/06/02/christian-prayer-times-how-often-should-believers-pray/
Notice that is CHRISTIAN prayer times...
No Direct Commandment From Jesus – How Often to Pray
There is no direct commandment from the Lord addressing how frequently Believers should pray (http://www.atotheword.com/?p=35432). However, there is never a scarcity of rich examples to learn from the Bible. Let us now, peruse a few scriptures to learn from Bible characters what the Word of God says about Christian prayer times, and learn how often they pray? First, let us examine how often Daniel, David and Jesus pray.
Like I said, no demand to do so, but ...
How Often Did Bible Characters Pray?
Both Daniel and David prayed at least three times each day. “Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he knelled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime”, Daniel 6:10.David declares, “evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud (Suppilcation (http://www.atotheword.com/2010/05/13/prayers-supplications-intercessions-giving-of-thanks-or-thanksgiving-types-of-christian-prayers-part-1/)): and he (God) shall hear my voice”, Psalm 55:17.Although Daniel and David had this aspect of their prayer life in common, there was a difference. David also prayed “at midnight”, Psalm 119:62. That was not the only dis-similar thing about these two. David was praying very early in the morning before many believers are up. He “prevented the dawning of the morning” because he was up crying “aloud” to the Lord in prayer, Psalm 119:147.
Finally, Jesus had early devotions too, Mark 1:35. So did Job (Job 1:5), and Samuel’s parents, (1 Samuel 1:19) and Hezekiah, 2 Chronicles 29:20.
I "could" supply verse all day on this and it's early followers and how many today honor this. But I'm afraid explaining this to an atheist, who is already a non-believer, to get them to 'believe' me, is a wasted effort. The facts are there on Google for anyone to look it up. I can't imagine anyone taking the word of an atheist on Christian matters. But just for fun, here's one more...
Psalms 55:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Psalms%2055.16-17)
16 But I call to God, and the LORD will save me.
17 Evening and morning and at noon I utter my complaint and moan, and he hears my voice.
Daniel 6:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Daniel%206.10)
When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously.
Acts 10:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Acts%2010.9)
The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.
Matthew Henry says:
http://www.scripturezealot.com/2008/02/13/praying-three-times-a-day/
Why not, one more!
Current practice Priests are required by canon law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law) to pray the entire Divine Office each day while permanent deacons are required to pray the morning and evening hours. All clerics are free to use the Liturgy of the Hours or the traditional Roman Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Breviary), according to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summorum_Pontificum), to fulfill this obligation. The practice among religious communities varies according to their rules (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rule) and constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution). The Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.
The modern Liturgy of the Hours usage focuses on three major hours and from two to four minor hours:
Invitatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invitatory) (not an hour properly called, but the introduction to the first hour said on the current day, whether it be the Office of Readings or Morning Prayer).
the Office of Readings (formerly Matins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matins)), major hour
Morning prayer (Lauds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauds)), major hour
Daytime prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Hours), which can be one or all of
Midmorning prayer (Terce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terce))
Midday prayer (Sext (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sext))
Midafternoon prayer (None (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_%28liturgy%29))
Evening prayer (Vespers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespers)), major hour
Night Prayer (Compline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline))
Major hours The major hours consist of the Office of Readings (formerly Matins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matins)), Morning (or Lauds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauds)) and Evening Prayer (or Vespers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespers)).
The Office of Readings consists of:
a hymn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymn)
one or two long psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) divided into three parts
a long passage from scripture, usually arranged so that in any one week, all the readings come from the same text
a long hagiographical passage, such as an account of a saint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint)'s martyrdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr), or a theological treatise commenting on some aspect of the scriptural reading, or a passage from the documents of the Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council)
on nights preceding Sundays and feast days, the office may be expanded to a vigil by inserting three Old Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament) canticles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canticles) and a reading from the gospels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospels)
the hymn Te Deum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Te_Deum) (solemnities, feasts, and Sundays outside of Lent)
the concluding prayer
a short concluding verse
The character of Morning Prayer is that of praise; of Evening Prayer, that of thanksgiving. Both follow the same format:
a hymn
two psalms, or one long psalm divided into two parts, and a scriptural canticle (taken from the Old Testament in the morning and the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) in the evening)
a short passage from scripture
a responsory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsory), typically a verse of scripture, but sometimes liturgical poetry
a canticle taken from the Gospel of Luke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke): the Canticle of Zechariah (Benedictus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedictus_%28Song_of_Zechariah%29)) for morning prayer, and the Canticle of Mary (Magnificat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnificat)) for evening prayer
intercessions
the Lord's Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer)
the concluding prayer
a blessing given by the priest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest) or deacon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon) leading Morning or Evening Prayer, or in the absence of clergy and in individual recitation, a short conclusion
Minor hours The daytime hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Hours) follow a simpler format:
a hymn
three short psalms, or, three pieces of longer psalms; in the daytime hours the psalmody is taken in large part from psalm 119, the longest in the Psalter
a very short passage of scripture, followed by a responsorial verse
the concluding prayer
a short concluding verse
Night prayer has the character of reflection on the day that is past and preparing the soul for its passage to eternal life:
an examination of conscience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examination_of_conscience)
a hymn
one or two psalms
a short reading from scripture
the responsory In manus tuas, Domine (Into Your Hands, Lord)
the Canticle of Simeon, Nunc dimittis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunc_dimittis), from the Gospel of Luke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke), framed by the antiphon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiphon) Protect us, Lord
a concluding prayer
a short concluding blessing
a hymn to Mary, the mother of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_the_mother_of_Jesus)
In each office, the psalms and canticle are framed by antiphons, and each concludes with the traditional Catholic doxology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxology).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours#Current_practice
Marcus Aurelius
06-05-2013, 04:04 PM
Sorry, the prayers listed and offered have nothing to do with Jewish folks. Nor do the hymns. Nor do the prayers that are "supposed" to be read aloud, and not silently, like the Lord's Prayer, for example. The fact that an atheist, is too ignorant, or too dumb, to read the rest of the page is not my problem. The fact that the ignorant didn't follow earlier links I posted, or actually look up the 3 prayers, is not surprising.
Here's another - look closely at the link title - http://www.atotheword.com/2010/06/02/christian-prayer-times-how-often-should-believers-pray/
Notice that is CHRISTIAN prayer times...
Like I said, no demand to do so, but ...
I "could" supply verse all day on this and it's early followers and how many today honor this. But I'm afraid explaining this to an atheist, who is already a non-believer, to get them to 'believe' me, is a wasted effort. The facts are there on Google for anyone to look it up. I can't imagine anyone taking the word of an atheist on Christian matters. But just for fun, here's one more...
Psalms 55:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Psalms%2055.16-17)
16 But I call to God, and the LORD will save me.
17 Evening and morning and at noon I utter my complaint and moan, and he hears my voice.
Daniel 6:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Daniel%206.10)
When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously.
Acts 10:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Acts%2010.9)
The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.
Matthew Henry says:
http://www.scripturezealot.com/2008/02/13/praying-three-times-a-day/
Why not, one more!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours#Current_practice
those weren't 'really' from the Bible. ;)
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 05:08 PM
Maybe this gent had ESP and wrote this for me a few years ago? - http://christianprayerrug.webloggg.com/a-blessing-prayer-three-times-per-day-is-all-we-ask.html
Prayer means different things to different people. Some pray to seek help from God in solving their problems, while others pray simply to get God’s blessing. Prayer truly is the only way to connect with God and ask for the right path to follow as a human being. America has braved many a tribulations in the past, from foreign attacks to natural calamities. However, today we face a different kind of problem, that of a religious decline.
Every day the news on our television shows all types of immoral happenings, from hideous crimes to political turmoil. Today, what our nation needs is a Christian prayer request, a collective movement to save America from spiritual downfall. It’s time to ask ourselves, how many times we pray in a day. Do we even think of God at least once a day? The truth is many of us think of God only when in trouble and not when we are in a happy state. However, it is time to not think of individual problems, but that of the condition of the entire nation. Where do we stand as Christians? Are we really true to our religion? These are some questions that need to be answered to get your country out of spiritual depravity.
What America needs today is for every American to remember his religion and pray with sincerity. Praying three times a day is what the entire Christian prayer request is all about. Praying is not just asking good things from God or requesting Him to solve your problems. It’s about confessing your sins and asking for forgiveness. Just the same way as Daniel did in Daniel 9:4-7 and 20, where he confessed his own sin and those of his nation. It’s also about thanking Him for all he has provided and asking for His blessing. Christian prayer requests brings you closer to God and helps you speak with Him, just the way you would talk to a close friend. Praying three times a day is the best way of communicating with God and telling Him how you have been through different times of the day.
Ideally you should pray in the morning, afternoon and evening, however, you can offer your prayers at any time of day, whatever is convenient to you. You need not always go to the Church, as any secluded and peaceful section of your home should be fine for praying. In case you don’t have a fixed place for praying, adding a Christian prayer rug is a great way of creating an individual space for the duration of your prayer. It is also something you can carry along in case you travel a lot or are at different places during different times of the day.
Missileman
06-05-2013, 05:51 PM
Sorry, the prayers listed and offered have nothing to do with Jewish folks. Nor do the hymns. Nor do the prayers that are "supposed" to be read aloud, and not silently, like the Lord's Prayer, for example. The fact that an atheist, is too ignorant, or too dumb, to read the rest of the page is not my problem. The fact that the ignorant didn't follow earlier links I posted, or actually look up the 3 prayers, is not surprising.
Here's another - look closely at the link title - http://www.atotheword.com/2010/06/02/christian-prayer-times-how-often-should-believers-pray/
Notice that is CHRISTIAN prayer times...
Like I said, no demand to do so, but ...
I "could" supply verse all day on this and it's early followers and how many today honor this. But I'm afraid explaining this to an atheist, who is already a non-believer, to get them to 'believe' me, is a wasted effort. The facts are there on Google for anyone to look it up. I can't imagine anyone taking the word of an atheist on Christian matters. But just for fun, here's one more...
Psalms 55:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Psalms%2055.16-17)
16 But I call to God, and the LORD will save me.
17 Evening and morning and at noon I utter my complaint and moan, and he hears my voice.
Daniel 6:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Daniel%206.10)
When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously.
Acts 10:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Acts%2010.9)
The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.
Matthew Henry says:
http://www.scripturezealot.com/2008/02/13/praying-three-times-a-day/
Why not, one more!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours#Current_practice
Why didn't you say we were talking about priests in elementary school? That's a whole different matter. :rolleyes:
Missileman
06-05-2013, 05:54 PM
Maybe this gent had ESP and wrote this for me a few years ago? - http://christianprayerrug.webloggg.com/a-blessing-prayer-three-times-per-day-is-all-we-ask.html
Prayer means different things to different people. Some pray to seek help from God in solving their problems, while others pray simply to get God’s blessing. Prayer truly is the only way to connect with God and ask for the right path to follow as a human being. America has braved many a tribulations in the past, from foreign attacks to natural calamities. However, today we face a different kind of problem, that of a religious decline.
Every day the news on our television shows all types of immoral happenings, from hideous crimes to political turmoil. Today, what our nation needs is a Christian prayer request, a collective movement to save America from spiritual downfall. It’s time to ask ourselves, how many times we pray in a day. Do we even think of God at least once a day? The truth is many of us think of God only when in trouble and not when we are in a happy state. However, it is time to not think of individual problems, but that of the condition of the entire nation. Where do we stand as Christians? Are we really true to our religion? These are some questions that need to be answered to get your country out of spiritual depravity.
What America needs today is for every American to remember his religion and pray with sincerity. Praying three times a day is what the entire Christian prayer request is all about. Praying is not just asking good things from God or requesting Him to solve your problems. It’s about confessing your sins and asking for forgiveness. Just the same way as Daniel did in Daniel 9:4-7 and 20, where he confessed his own sin and those of his nation. It’s also about thanking Him for all he has provided and asking for His blessing. Christian prayer requests brings you closer to God and helps you speak with Him, just the way you would talk to a close friend. Praying three times a day is the best way of communicating with God and telling Him how you have been through different times of the day.
Ideally you should pray in the morning, afternoon and evening, however, you can offer your prayers at any time of day, whatever is convenient to you. You need not always go to the Church, as any secluded and peaceful section of your home should be fine for praying. In case you don’t have a fixed place for praying, adding a Christian prayer rug is a great way of creating an individual space for the duration of your prayer. It is also something you can carry along in case you travel a lot or are at different places during different times of the day.
Every link you post defeats your position.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 06:10 PM
Every link you post defeats your position.
No, your ignorance does yours. I stated from the get go that it wasn't commanded, that it wasn't set times like in Islam. But it is a tradition, and if some kids parents teach their kids that way, then so be it. I've posted quite a few links showing that 3 prayers a day comes from the Bible and many to this day follow that lead. And yes, it IS mandatory for those in the priesthood on up. But again, there are Bible verses supporting this. Are you truly that much of an ignorant hater that you must proclaim to know more than Catholics/Christians themselves? How much searching did you do on the 3 prayers as I have pointed out? None, and I know it.
I personally know people who honor distinct times of the day for performing prayers, including the Lords Prayer and saying the Rosary. There are reasons that one is supposed to pray in the morning, day and end of day.
You can deny it, I have no desire to convert someone who isn't already following Christ. But you look like quite an asshole trying to claim superiority on something I've done my entire life, was taught in grade school for a year, taught in Catechism and taught by the varied priests I've had the pleasure of knowing in my time. My Mom was involved in the Church that I received my Communion and Confirmation at. As a result, I was lucky enough to get to know the entire Church and it's priests. My local church offers the 6 prayers a day - every day - which is listed on the same pages I sent you. Most won't be showing up at 3am though, which is why generally the 3 prayers are the most popularly followed.
Many of us following Christ would like to follow what he did, what his Apostles did, what has been passed down through priests through centuries, along through the Catholic Church. You'll willingly give accommodations to Muslims, but since you can't stand Christians, you claim it's different because it's not commanded. You went from it being Jewish, to being for priests and then lastly pointing out that it wasn't mandatory. That transition alone proves my point.
I'm done trying to convince anyone of my faith and what my faith entails. Peace, and was fun discussing this with you guys!
Missileman
06-05-2013, 06:32 PM
No, your ignorance does yours. I stated from the get go that it wasn't commanded, that it wasn't set times like in Islam. But it is a tradition, and if some kids parents teach their kids that way, then so be it. I've posted quite a few links showing that 3 prayers a day comes from the Bible and many to this day follow that lead. And yes, it IS mandatory for those in the priesthood on up. But again, there are Bible verses supporting this. Are you truly that much of an ignorant hater that you must proclaim to know more than Catholics/Christians themselves? How much searching did you do on the 3 prayers as I have pointed out? None, and I know it.
I personally know people who honor distinct times of the day for performing prayers, including the Lords Prayer and saying the Rosary. There are reasons that one is supposed to pray in the morning, day and end of day.
You can deny it, I have no desire to convert someone who isn't already following Christ. But you look like quite an asshole trying to claim superiority on something I've done my entire life, was taught in grade school for a year, taught in Catechism and taught by the varied priests I've had the pleasure of knowing in my time. My Mom was involved in the Church that I received my Communion and Confirmation at. As a result, I was lucky enough to get to know the entire Church and it's priests. My local church offers the 6 prayers a day - every day - which is listed on the same pages I sent you. Most won't be showing up at 3am though, which is why generally the 3 prayers are the most popularly followed.
Many of us following Christ would like to follow what he did, what his Apostles did, what has been passed down through priests through centuries, along through the Catholic Church. You'll willingly give accommodations to Muslims, but since you can't stand Christians, you claim it's different because it's not commanded. You went from it being Jewish, to being for priests and then lastly pointing out that it wasn't mandatory. That transition alone proves my point.
I'm done trying to convince anyone of my faith and what my faith entails. Peace, and was fun discussing this with you guys!
9,12,3...err, morning, noon, night...err, whenever it's convenient. That's quite an untraditional tradition you have there.
And don't even think about trying to say I've changed my argument, it's remained the same throughout.
You've got your panties in a twist because your own links betrayed you.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 07:30 PM
You wanna carp about Christians not being allowed to engage in an ancient JEWISH custom? I hear native Americans prayed to the great spirits at 8, 11, and 2. :rolleyes: If we try hard enough, I bet we can fill the rest of the school day with shite other than schoolwork.
When first coming across a post from me you tried to claim this was a Jewish custom.
Why didn't you say we were talking about priests in elementary school? That's a whole different matter. :rolleyes:
Then with further links you appear to agree the 3 prayers exist, but now you seem to think it only applies to priests
Every link you post defeats your position.
This was your wisdom with yet more proof that Catholics have a tradition of the 3 daily prayers. Only this time, while highlighting those prayers, you point out that it isn't mandatory to be at those times and Catholics can say them at any time. This is what I stated from the get go, that these were the recommended times, of 9, 12 and 3 - but your argument in this reply is that it's not mandatory, that it can be at anytime.
9,12,3...err, morning, noon, night...err, whenever it's convenient. That's quite an untraditional tradition you have there.
And don't even think about trying to say I've changed my argument, it's remained the same throughout.
You've got your panties in a twist because your own links betrayed you.
My links are solid. First you say it's Jewish, then you say it's Catholic priests. Then when you don't have any further argument, you fall back on the prayers can be said at any time. Your argument HAS changed the more and more you look like an idiot.
My panties? Sure, because an apparent uneducated atheist doesn't know Catholic history? It's more like you're annoying. You've long made an asshole out of yourself in Christian and Catholic related threads. You turn into an asshole in almost every religion related thread you ever enter - and you're not even who of faith. Most people would call that a troll. I'll stick with my guns after having known you for so many years, you're just a little bitch when it comes to religion because you're ignorant.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 07:39 PM
Anyone else not ignorant - look up "Angelus". Many have always and still do recite the prayer 3 times a day, also at the times I have specified. Many Churches will still even ring the bells at these times.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 07:41 PM
This is from a Catholic Encyclopedia:
The Angelus is a short practice of devotion in honour (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07462a.htm) of the Incarnation repeated three times each day, morning, noon, and evening, at the sound of the bell. It consists essentially in the triple repetition of the Hail Mary, to which in later times have been added three introductory versicles and a concluding versicle and prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm). The prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) is that which belongs to the antiphon of Our Lady (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm), "Alma Redemptoris," and its recitation is not of strict obligation (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11189a.htm) in order to gain the indulgence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm). From the first word of the three versicles, i.e. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariæ (The angel of the Lord (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm) declared unto Mary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm)). the devotion derives its name. The indulgence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm) of 100 days for each recitation, with a plenary once a month. was granted by Benedict XIII (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02431a.htm), 14 September, 1724, but the conditions prescribed have been somewhat modified by Leo XIII (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09169a.htm), 3 April, 1884. Originally it was necessary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm) that the Angelus should be said kneeling (except on Sundays (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14335a.htm) and on Saturday evenings, when the rubrics (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13216a.htm) prescribe a standing posture), and also that it should be said at the sound of the bell; but more recent legislation allows these conditions to be dispensed with for any sufficient reason, provided the prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) be said approximately at the proper hours, i.e. in the early morning, or about the hour of noon, or towards evening. In this case. however, the whole Angelus as commonly printed has to be recited, but those who do not know (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) the prayers (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) by heart or who are unable to read them, may say five Hail Marys in their place. During paschal time (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05524d.htm) the antiphon of Our Lady (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm), "Regina cæli lætare," with versicle and prayer (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm), is to be substituted for the Angelus. The Angelus indulgence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm) is one of those which are not suspended during the year of Jubilee.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 07:43 PM
Another:
At the heart of our Catholic Faith is the celebration of the incarnation of God’s only begotten Son, conceived in the womb of the Virgin, it is fitting to reflect on one of the daily spiritual practices of the Marian Catechist, the praying of the Angelus.
A classic depiction of the Angelus is a painting by Jean-Francois Millet. It portrays a husband and wife interrupting their work in the field, bowing their heads in prayer. In the landscape behind the two of them, along with their wheelbarrow and tools, is a steeple of the church, the place from which the bell tolls indicating it is time to pray the Angelus.
When I was pastor of The Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary Parish at Saint Mary’s Ridge, Wisconsin, a beautiful rural area of the Diocese of La Crosse settled by devout German Catholic farmers; parishioners would retell the stories told to them by their grandparents about the Angelus bell that would ring at noon. When the bell tolled, it was reported that a person could scan the many fields along the ridge and observe teams of horses, connected to various implements, stopped in their tracks. In those days, the Angelus was so much a part of rural life that as soon as the first toll of the bell was heard, the horses stopped themselves without having to be told to do so by their drivers. What a wondrous sight it must have been to look out over the fields and, there, see your neighbor praying the same prayer you were praying at the same time of the day. What a powerful witness and source of encouragement this must have been for those farmers.
We must never underestimate what God is able to bring forth from our witness to the faith, especially through prayer. The witness of a young girl praying the Angelus was the beginning of the conversion, from Hinduism to Christianity, of Sister Nirmala, superior of the Missionaries of Charity; the religious order founded by Blessed Mother Teresa. In an interview appearing in the January – March 2003 issue of Mission Today: A Journal of Missiological and Ecumenical Research, Sister Nirmala answered the question, “How did you come to know Jesus Christ?” with the following,
“I did not wish to convert to Christianity. I had no idea what it was about, and I was very happy being a Hindu. However, in my city there was no institute for girls, so I was registered at Patna Women’s College, a Catholic institution.
A few days after being there, a Hindu girl, who was an American student, knelt down and began to pray, when the bells rang. I remained standing and looking at her, and something happened, a gentle movement in my soul and I felt that the living Jesus came to me. From then on, I began to ask a lot of questions about Jesus, and after six and a half years I came to Calcutta, met Mother Teresa, and was baptized.”1
The Angelus is a prayer, which sanctifies our day at sunrise, noon and sunset. The prayer is Christocentric, underscoring the mystery of the Incarnation of the Divine Word. It also possesses a thoroughly Marian character in its commemoration of the Angel Gabriel’s announcement to the Virgin Mary.
http://www.mariancatechist.com/formation/spiritual_practices/prayer/angelus.html
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 07:46 PM
And for the children.... Can someone tell me that this is not Catholic? I mean, I just spoke with a 93 year old woman who has taught me many things, and she's the one who reminded me of the terminology. She used to go to Church daily for her prayers but now, due to her age and health, must do so on her own at home. She doesn't keep a specific prayer but rather various prayers, but at those times. She learned this as a child, as did I.
http://www.thereligionteacher.com/angelus-prayer-for-children/
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 07:48 PM
The Catholic family, school, or workplace would benefit from praying the Angelus at noon every day. Traditionally, the Angelus is recited at 6:00 am, 12:00 pm and 6:00 pm. The Regina Coeli is prayed during the Easter season instead of the Angelus.
A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who devoutly recite these prayers according to the formula indicated for the time of the year.
Prayer:
V. The angel of the Lord declared unto Mary,
R. And she conceived by the Holy Spirit. Hail Mary...
V. Behold the handmaid of the Lord,
R. Be it done unto me according to Thy word.
Hail Mary...
V. And the Word was made flesh,
R. And dwelt among us.
Hail Mary...
V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God,
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray
Pour forth, we beseech Thee, O Lord, Thy grace into our hearts, that we to whom the Incarnation of Christ, Thy Son, was made known by the message of an angel, may by His passion and cross be brought to the glory of His resurrection. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
Prayer Source: Enchiridion of Indulgences , June 29, 1968
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/prayers/view.cfm?id=427
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 07:49 PM
Fascinating that SO many Catholics and Catholic websites out there are familiar with the 3 prayers per day, when it's not even something of their faith! I'll have to write them and let them all know they've been fooled! :)
aboutime
06-05-2013, 07:54 PM
Jim. No disrespect intended here. Your contributions below are admirable.
However. As a Christian. I find my faith, and my prayers are, and should always be a private journey in my life.
Discussions of my Faith...."The belief in the Unseen" is my business, and no-one else's. Which is why I, as a Christian. Like you.
Have no need to explain, or make any excuses to anyone, for any reason to justify, or apologize for my belief, and faith.
That is mine. And mine alone.
Nothing anyone else says in reference to their religious belief, or faith can, or will change mine.
And that's how I believe it should be for ALL OF US.
If you must argue about it with anyone, for any reason. There must be some doubt.
If you or anyone else has doubt.
PRAY.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 08:01 PM
Jim. No disrespect intended here. Your contributions below are admirable.
However. As a Christian. I find my faith, and my prayers are, and should always be a private journey in my life.
Discussions of my Faith...."The belief in the Unseen" is my business, and no-one else's. Which is why I, as a Christian. Like you.
Have no need to explain, or make any excuses to anyone, for any reason to justify, or apologize for my belief, and faith.
That is mine. And mine alone.
Nothing anyone else says in reference to their religious belief, or faith can, or will change mine.
And that's how I believe it should be for ALL OF US.
If you must argue about it with anyone, for any reason. There must be some doubt.
If you or anyone else has doubt.
PRAY.
You'll note that I VERY rarely get involved in religious threads. I'm like you and feel it's mostly a private thing, and between me and my creator. But this thread went from school discussion and then into prayer when I mentioned that some Catholic/Christians pray 3x daily. I was told by an atheist in various manners that this is not true, although it's something I started learning as early as in catechism before my communion. The recitation of the Hail Mary 3x is also traditional. In addition to that, many perform the Rosary first thing in the AM in addition to saying the Lords Prayer.
But you're right, it is MY fault that I worry about what others think. I shouldn't let it bug me when someone tells me I'm incorrect or have been performing my faith incorrectly, and my natural reaction is to fight back and prove them wrong. I'm FAR from a perfect Catholic. I should have just let it be when it went in that direction, happy in the knowledge of what I was taught. Whether another believes or follows the same really makes little to no difference as to the truth.
aboutime
06-05-2013, 08:14 PM
You'll note that I VERY rarely get involved in religious threads. I'm like you and feel it's mostly a private thing, and between me and my creator. But this thread went from school discussion and then into prayer when I mentioned that some Catholic/Christians pray 3x daily. I was told by an atheist in various manners that this is not true, although it's something I started learning as early as in catechism before my communion. The recitation of the Hail Mary 3x is also traditional. In addition to that, many perform the Rosary first thing in the AM in addition to saying the Lords Prayer.
But you're right, it is MY fault that I worry about what others think. I shouldn't let it bug me when someone tells me I'm incorrect or have been performing my faith incorrectly, and my natural reaction is to fight back and prove them wrong. I'm FAR from a perfect Catholic. I should have just let it be when it went in that direction, happy in the knowledge of what I was taught. Whether another believes or follows the same really makes little to no difference as to the truth.
Thanks Jim. I am always reminded of what my parents taught me, and probably yours did too! About being warned to never get into any arguments about Religion, or Politics.
No way to avoid the Politics. But religion should stay a private thing. That way. You avoid finding yourself in a position where you argue about it, and where you must explain, or make excuses to those who HAVE NO INTENTION of listening, or reasoning with you. Because...No matter what you say. They just refuse to believe in what You, or I believe in.
That's the result of having NO FAITH, and no standards of living by man-made rules of common human beings.
If they do not believe. That gives them all of the excuses they need to NOT obey, or follow any silly 10 RULES we call Commandments.
If they don't believe, or follow them. They can't be held personally responsible to be moral, practical, responsible human beings.
And that...in itself is nothing but Misery, based on Hatred, and Selfishness for the "ME" generation.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 08:14 PM
In an attempt to be a better Catholic, and a better person....
I was wrong for taking any cheap shots I did. I stand by the factual portions of my post and what I believe in, but I apologize to MM for my name calling. Obviously by doing so I certainly wasn't helping my argument.
Voted4Reagan
06-05-2013, 08:18 PM
There are set hours for Catholic Prayer.
Canonical hours Traditional Roman Breviary By the end of the 5th century, the Liturgy of the Hours was composed of seven offices. Of these seven, Compline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline) seems to have been the last to appear, because the 4th century Apostolic Constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Constitutions) VIII iv 34 do not mention it in the exhortation "Offer up your prayers in the morning, at the third hour, the sixth, the ninth, the evening, and at cock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooster)-crowing".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-6) An eighth office, Prime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_%28liturgy%29), was added by Benedict of Nursia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Benedict_of_Nursia) in the 6th century. These eight are known by the following names:
Matins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matins#Roman_liturgy_of_recent_centuries) (during the night, at midnight with some); also called Vigils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigils) or Nocturns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturns) or, in monastic usage, the Night Office
Lauds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauds) or Dawn Prayer (at Dawn, or 3 a.m.)
Prime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_%28liturgy%29) or Early Morning Prayer (First Hour = approximately 6 a.m.)
Terce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terce) or Mid-Morning Prayer (Third Hour = approximately 9 a.m.)
Sext (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sext) or Midday Prayer (Sixth Hour = approximately 12 noon)
None (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_%28liturgy%29) or Mid-Afternoon Prayer (Ninth Hour = approximately 3 p.m.)
Vespers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespers) or Evening Prayer ("at the lighting of the lamps", generally at 6 p.m.)
Compline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline) or Night Prayer (before retiring, generally at 9 p.m.)
The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-2) It consists primarily of psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) supplemented by hymns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymns) and readings. Together with the Mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_%28liturgy%29), it constitutes the official public prayer life of the Church. Upon ordination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination) to the Diaconate, the daily recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours becomes a canonical obligation. The Liturgy of the Hours also forms the basis of prayer within Christian monasticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_monasticism).[3]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-divine-3)
The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), has formed part of the Church's public worship from the earliest times. Christians of both Eastern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Christianity) and Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Christianity) traditions (including the Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic), Eastern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church), Oriental Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy), Anglican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican), and Lutheran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran) churches) celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours under various names. Within Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism), the Liturgy of the Hours, once contained within what was called the Roman Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Breviary), is in its present form found in what in English editions is called either The Liturgy of the Hours (arranged in four volumes) or The Divine Office (in three volumes).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-4) In Greek the corresponding services are found in the Ὡρολόγιον (Horologion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours#Eastern_Orthodox_and_Greek-Catholic_usage)), meaning Book of Hours. Within Anglicanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism), the Liturgy of the Hours is contained within the book of Daily Prayer of Common Worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Worship) and the Book of Common Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Common_Prayer), as well as in the Anglican Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Breviary). Within Lutheranism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism), it is contained within the liturgical books used by the various Lutheran church bodies, such as the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The primary worship resources in these churches include Lutheran Worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Worship), the Lutheran Book of Worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Book_of_Worship), and Evangelical Lutheran Worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Worship). Other names for the Liturgy of the Hours within the Latin Rite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Rite) include Diurnal and Nocturnal Office, Ecclesiastical Office, Cursus ecclesiasticus, or simply cursus.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-divine-3)
The early Christians continued the Jewish practice of reciting prayers at certain hours of the day or night. In the Psalms are found expressions like "in the morning I offer you my prayer"; "At midnight I will rise and thank you" ; "Evening, morning and at noon I will cry and lament"; "Seven times a day I praise you". The Apostles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Apostles) observed the Jewish custom of praying at the third, sixth and ninth hour and at midnight (Acts 10:3, 9; 16:25; etc.). The Christian prayer of that time consisted of almost the same elements as the Jewish: recital or chanting of psalms, reading of the Old Testament, to which were soon added readings of the Gospels, Acts, and epistles, and canticles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canticle) such as the Gloria in Excelsis Deo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_in_Excelsis_Deo). Taylor Marshall (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taylor_Marshall&action=edit&redlink=1) has demonstrated how these Christian cycles of daily prayer derived from Jewish customs of prayer.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-5) Other elements were added later in the course of the centuries.
After the Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council), Pope Paul VI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_VI) promulgated a new Roman Breviary, commonly referred to as "Liturgy of the Hours." The structure of the offices, the distribution of psalms, and the prayers themselves were modified. Prime was suppressed entirely. In short, the burden was lessened. "Major" and "minor" hours were defined:
The Officium lectionis, or Office of Readings, (formerly Matins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matins#Roman_liturgy_of_recent_centuries)) — major hour
Lauds or Morning prayer — major hour
Daytime prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Hours), which can be one or all of:
Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer
Sext or Midday Prayer
None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer
Vespers or Evening Prayer — major hour
Compline or Night Prayer
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 08:19 PM
Thanks Jim. I am always reminded of what my parents taught me, and probably yours did too! About being warned to never get into any arguments about Religion, or Politics.
No way to avoid the Politics. But religion should stay a private thing. That way. You avoid finding yourself in a position where you argue about it, and where you must explain, or make excuses to those who HAVE NO INTENTION of listening, or reasoning with you. Because...No matter what you say. They just refuse to believe in what You, or I believe in.
That's the result of having NO FAITH, and no standards of living by man-made rules of common human beings.
If they do not believe. That gives them all of the excuses they need to NOT obey, or follow any silly 10 RULES we call Commandments.
If they don't believe, or follow them. They can't be held personally responsible to be moral, practical, responsible human beings.
And that...in itself is nothing but Misery, based on Hatred, and Selfishness for the "ME" generation.
Good rules, and yep, I was taught the same, not that I always listen!
Missileman
06-05-2013, 08:20 PM
When first coming across a post from me you tried to claim this was a Jewish custom.
It is a Jewish custom, YOUR OWN LINK EVEN SAYS SO. Don't get upset with me for pointing it out.
Then with further links you appear to agree the 3 prayers exist, but now you seem to think it only applies to priests
I never said the prayers don't exist, I said they're not Christian tradition. Of the thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of Christians that I've interacted with over 50 years, not one, not a single one has ever stopped what they were doing at 9 or noon or 3 to pray. If a tradition, you'd think I'd have at least observed it ONCE.
You were trying to laughably equate the daily schedules of priests with those of school kids. You got called on it.
This was your wisdom with yet more proof that Catholics have a tradition of the 3 daily prayers. Only this time, while highlighting those prayers, you point out that it isn't mandatory to be at those times and Catholics can say them at any time. This is what I stated from the get go, that these were the recommended times, of 9, 12 and 3 - but your argument in this reply is that it's not mandatory, that it can be at anytime.
My links are solid. First you say it's Jewish, then you say it's Catholic priests. Then when you don't have any further argument, you fall back on the prayers can be said at any time. Your argument HAS changed the more and more you look like an idiot.
My panties? Sure, because an apparent uneducated atheist doesn't know Catholic history? It's more like you're annoying. You've long made an asshole out of yourself in Christian and Catholic related threads. You turn into an asshole in almost every religion related thread you ever enter - and you're not even who of faith. Most people would call that a troll. I'll stick with my guns after having known you for so many years, you're just a little bitch when it comes to religion because you're ignorant.
You're just a little confused on how things went here. I said Christians have no specified times of prayer. You posted a link about the 9, 12, and 3 and I pointed out that those "hours of prayer" are Jewish tradition as your link attested. This link also said Christians are free to pray at their convenience. The other link you posted was a site devoted to praying. It also said 9,12, and 3 was Jewish tradition and acknowledged that there are no specific prayer times for Christians.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 08:30 PM
It is a Jewish custom, YOUR OWN LINK EVEN SAYS SO. Don't get upset with me for pointing it out.
I never said the prayers don't exist, I said they're not Christian tradition. Of the thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of Christians that I've interacted with over 50 years, not one, not a single one has ever stopped what they were doing at 9 or noon or 3 to pray. If a tradition, you'd think I'd have at least observed it ONCE.
You were trying to laughably equate the daily schedules of priests with those of school kids. You got called on it.
You're just a little confused on how things went here. I said Christians have no specified times of prayer. You posted a link about the 9, 12, and 3 and I pointed out that those "hours of prayer" are Jewish tradition as your link attested. This link also said Christians are free to pray at their convenience. The other link you posted was a site devoted to praying. It also said 9,12, and 3 was Jewish tradition and acknowledged that there are no specific prayer times for Christians.
Simply look at my last 4-5 posts of links for undeniable proof of the 3 prayers and also within canonical law as posted by V4R just above you. To say "It's Jewish" when it's also a LONG part of Catholic history is dumb. That shows you don't truly know, because you're an atheist. Lots of Catholic tradition comes from the Jewish. The times are there as it's VERY clear and every Catholic with knowledge will tell you about the prayers. As will the Church who follow it.
As for the bold, to go full circle - you were wrong. Whether YOU know people who follow it or not is irrelevant, as you've now been shown that in various references, these 3 prayers exist. You can deny every link I post and even those from the head Catholic organizations.
jimnyc
06-05-2013, 08:32 PM
There are set hours for Catholic Prayer.
Canonical hours
Traditional Roman Breviary
By the end of the 5th century, the Liturgy of the Hours was composed of seven offices. Of these seven, Compline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline) seems to have been the last to appear, because the 4th century Apostolic Constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Constitutions) VIII iv 34 do not mention it in the exhortation "Offer up your prayers in the morning, at the third hour, the sixth, the ninth, the evening, and at cock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooster)-crowing".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-6) An eighth office, Prime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_%28liturgy%29), was added by Benedict of Nursia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Benedict_of_Nursia) in the 6th century. These eight are known by the following names:
Matins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matins#Roman_liturgy_of_recent_centuries) (during the night, at midnight with some); also called Vigils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigils) or Nocturns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturns) or, in monastic usage, the Night Office
Lauds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauds) or Dawn Prayer (at Dawn, or 3 a.m.)
Prime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_%28liturgy%29) or Early Morning Prayer (First Hour = approximately 6 a.m.)
Terce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terce) or Mid-Morning Prayer (Third Hour = approximately 9 a.m.)
Sext (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sext) or Midday Prayer (Sixth Hour = approximately 12 noon)
None (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_%28liturgy%29) or Mid-Afternoon Prayer (Ninth Hour = approximately 3 p.m.)
Vespers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespers) or Evening Prayer ("at the lighting of the lamps", generally at 6 p.m.)
Compline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compline) or Night Prayer (before retiring, generally at 9 p.m.)
The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-2) It consists primarily of psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) supplemented by hymns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymns) and readings. Together with the Mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_%28liturgy%29), it constitutes the official public prayer life of the Church. Upon ordination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination) to the Diaconate, the daily recitation of the Liturgy of the Hours becomes a canonical obligation. The Liturgy of the Hours also forms the basis of prayer within Christian monasticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_monasticism).[3]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-divine-3)
The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), has formed part of the Church's public worship from the earliest times. Christians of both Eastern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Christianity) and Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Christianity) traditions (including the Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic), Eastern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church), Oriental Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy), Anglican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican), and Lutheran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran) churches) celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours under various names. Within Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism), the Liturgy of the Hours, once contained within what was called the Roman Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Breviary), is in its present form found in what in English editions is called either The Liturgy of the Hours (arranged in four volumes) or The Divine Office (in three volumes).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-4) In Greek the corresponding services are found in the Ὡρολόγιον (Horologion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours#Eastern_Orthodox_and_Greek-Catholic_usage)), meaning Book of Hours. Within Anglicanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism), the Liturgy of the Hours is contained within the book of Daily Prayer of Common Worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Worship) and the Book of Common Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Common_Prayer), as well as in the Anglican Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Breviary). Within Lutheranism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism), it is contained within the liturgical books used by the various Lutheran church bodies, such as the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The primary worship resources in these churches include Lutheran Worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Worship), the Lutheran Book of Worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Book_of_Worship), and Evangelical Lutheran Worship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Worship). Other names for the Liturgy of the Hours within the Latin Rite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Rite) include Diurnal and Nocturnal Office, Ecclesiastical Office, Cursus ecclesiasticus, or simply cursus.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-divine-3)
The early Christians continued the Jewish practice of reciting prayers at certain hours of the day or night. In the Psalms are found expressions like "in the morning I offer you my prayer"; "At midnight I will rise and thank you" ; "Evening, morning and at noon I will cry and lament"; "Seven times a day I praise you". The Apostles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Apostles) observed the Jewish custom of praying at the third, sixth and ninth hour and at midnight (Acts 10:3, 9; 16:25; etc.). The Christian prayer of that time consisted of almost the same elements as the Jewish: recital or chanting of psalms, reading of the Old Testament, to which were soon added readings of the Gospels, Acts, and epistles, and canticles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canticle) such as the Gloria in Excelsis Deo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_in_Excelsis_Deo). Taylor Marshall (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Taylor_Marshall&action=edit&redlink=1) has demonstrated how these Christian cycles of daily prayer derived from Jewish customs of prayer.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-5) Other elements were added later in the course of the centuries.
After the Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council), Pope Paul VI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_VI) promulgated a new Roman Breviary, commonly referred to as "Liturgy of the Hours." The structure of the offices, the distribution of psalms, and the prayers themselves were modified. Prime was suppressed entirely. In short, the burden was lessened. "Major" and "minor" hours were defined:
The Officium lectionis, or Office of Readings, (formerly Matins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matins#Roman_liturgy_of_recent_centuries)) — major hour
Lauds or Morning prayer — major hour
Daytime prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Hours), which can be one or all of:
Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer
Sext or Midday Prayer
None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer
Vespers or Evening Prayer — major hour
Compline or Night Prayer
Yep, but I'm afraid such specifics will fall lost and unheard and denied. Tis cool though. :thumb:
Missileman
06-05-2013, 08:53 PM
Simply look at my last 4-5 posts of links for undeniable proof of the 3 prayers and also within canonical law as posted by V4R just above you. To say "It's Jewish" when it's also a LONG part of Catholic history is dumb. That shows you don't truly know, because you're an atheist. Lots of Catholic tradition comes from the Jewish. The times are there as it's VERY clear and every Catholic with knowledge will tell you about the prayers. As will the Church who follow it.
As for the bold, to go full circle - you were wrong. Whether YOU know people who follow it or not is irrelevant, as you've now been shown that in various references, these 3 prayers exist. You can deny every link I post and even those from the head Catholic organizations.
It's not a long part of Catholic laity's history.
BillyBob
06-05-2013, 08:57 PM
Simply look at my last 4-5 posts of links for undeniable proof of the 3 prayers and also within canonical law as posted by V4R just above you. To say "It's Jewish" when it's also a LONG part of Catholic history is dumb. That shows you don't truly know, because you're an atheist. Lots of Catholic tradition comes from the Jewish. The times are there as it's VERY clear and every Catholic with knowledge will tell you about the prayers. As will the Church who follow it.
As for the bold, to go full circle - you were wrong. Whether YOU know people who follow it or not is irrelevant, as you've now been shown that in various references, these 3 prayers exist. You can deny every link I post and even those from the head Catholic organizations.
I started a thread about 'dispensationalism', it might interest you. It may or may not apply in this situation, but it is an enlightening way to view scripture.
Marcus Aurelius
06-05-2013, 09:16 PM
It's not a long part of Catholic laity's history.
So, like Jim said, you ARE saying praying at various set times is just for priests. That is incorrect.
Voted4Reagan
06-05-2013, 09:16 PM
It's not a long part of Catholic laity's history.
The Hours of prayer predate the birth of a Jewish Carpenter.... And were adopted as Canon by Peter and changed and expanded up into the 6th century. They are set in Monastic and Canon law.. Weather the observant chooses to devoutly follow them is a matter of personal faith..
The Hours changed slightly under Paul VI. But Either set of Hours is allowable to be used by the observant. If they choose the older hours that is a matter of personal faith as well.
Sorry MissileMan... you are incorrect in your assertions.
Kathianne
06-05-2013, 11:59 PM
I don't know the source that Voted4reagan used, but here are some of interest:
http://www.breviary.net/comm-hours.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/07500B.TXT
http://divineoffice.org/liturgy-of-the-hours/how-to-pray-the-liturgy-of-the-hours/
Missileman
06-06-2013, 04:47 AM
So, like Jim said, you ARE saying praying at various set times is just for priests. That is incorrect.
I'm NOT saying it's only for priests, but that it's only traditional for priests and not traditional for all Christians.
logroller
06-06-2013, 04:55 AM
Traditionally, I crap three times a day. It's practically religious. It really irks my wife too, having to accommodate me. She's intolerant like that.
Drummond
06-06-2013, 05:04 AM
Traditionally, I crap three times a day. It's practically religious. It really irks my wife too, having to accommodate me. She's intolerant like that.
Thank you, Logroller. My day is now complete ...
Here is a kid in the middle of the bible belt where praying is not allowed in school that took it upon himself to throw away his speech as Valedictorian and say the lords prayer
http://conservativevideos.com/2013/06/valedictorian-rips-up-school-districts-approved-speech-and-recites-the-lords-prayer/
And those in attendance applauded him for doing so
Can a cjild bless his meal to himself yes but are the public schools trying there hardest to keep prayer out of school yes so why allow one if you wont allow all
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 07:35 AM
I'm NOT saying it's only for priests, but that it's only traditional for priests and not traditional for all Christians.
show me something that proves the set times did not apply to the people then. Should be easy, right?
Voted4Reagan
06-06-2013, 07:47 AM
show me something that proves the set times did not apply to the people then. Should be easy, right?
What applies to the Clergy also applies to the Laity as concerning the hours of prayer.
No Monastic or Canon Documents make any kind of distinction between the two.
The people were to emulate and live their lives according to the bible and the rulings from the Pope as Gods representitive on Earth.
The Hours of Prayer apply to all... not just the Clergy.
Weather one abides by them is between that person and God and is a matter of PERSONAL FAITH.
The Hours are not Optional..
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 08:33 AM
http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=644215#post644215)
show me something that proves the set times did not apply to the people then. Should be easy, right?
What applies to the Clergy also applies to the Laity as concerning the hours of prayer.
No Monastic or Canon Documents make any kind of distinction between the two.
The people were to emulate and live their lives according to the bible and the rulings from the Pope as Gods representitive on Earth.
The Hours of Prayer apply to all... not just the Clergy.
Weather one abides by them is between that person and God and is a matter of PERSONAL FAITH.
The Hours are not Optional..
yup.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 09:10 AM
It's not a long part of Catholic laity's history.
The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).
What applies to the Clergy also applies to the Laity as concerning the hours of prayer.
No Monastic or Canon Documents make any kind of distinction between the two.
The people were to emulate and live their lives according to the bible and the rulings from the Pope as Gods representitive on Earth.
The Hours of Prayer apply to all... not just the Clergy.
Weather one abides by them is between that person and God and is a matter of PERSONAL FAITH.
The Hours are not Optional..
Yep, and with that I will rest my case. If some are unaware of it, or choose not to follow it, not my problem. But the hours exist and it's fact.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 09:12 AM
I'm NOT saying it's only for priests, but that it's only traditional for priests and not traditional for all Christians.
It's not traditional for the priesthood on up - but MANDATORY. Then it IS traditional for parishioners and such to follow the prayer guidelines that the church sets out.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 09:13 AM
http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Missileman http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=644133#post644133)
It's not a long part of Catholic laity's history.
The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).
http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Voted4Reagan http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=644217#post644217)
What applies to the Clergy also applies to the Laity as concerning the hours of prayer.
No Monastic or Canon Documents make any kind of distinction between the two.
The people were to emulate and live their lives according to the bible and the rulings from the Pope as Gods representitive on Earth.
The Hours of Prayer apply to all... not just the Clergy.
Weather one abides by them is between that person and God and is a matter of PERSONAL FAITH.
The Hours are not Optional..
Yep, and with that I will rest my case. If some are unaware of it, or choose not to follow it, not my problem. But the hours exist and it's fact.
Come on, they're not 'really' Catholic ;)
Missileman
06-06-2013, 10:54 AM
show me something that proves the set times did not apply to the people then. Should be easy, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours
Current practicePriests are required by canon law (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Canon_law) to pray the entire Divine Office each day while permanent deacons are required to pray the morning and evening hours. All clerics are free to use the Liturgy of the Hours or the traditional Roman Breviary (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Roman_Breviary), according to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Summorum_Pontificum), to fulfill this obligation. The practice among religious communities varies according to their rules (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rule) and constitutions (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Constitution). The Second Vatican Council (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 11:21 AM
show me something that proves the set times did not apply to the people then. Should be easy, right?
[h=3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours
Sounds like it applies to the people to me:
The Second Vatican Council (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.
What you posted shows that the Catholic Church wants the laity to follow the hours and that many of them have - which is what I said from the get go.
Abbey Marie
06-06-2013, 11:33 AM
I haven't read every word of this debate, but it seems to me that whether or not any religion mandates specific prayer times, the important point being lost here is that Christians have been repeatedly threatened with law suits for expressing their religion in school. To the point that schools are afraid of a lawsuit for Jeff's child saying a quiet pre-meal prayer. To have this accommodation made in the face of all that is grossly hypocritical. And arguably violates (I'm really reaching back in memory here, so not sure on this) the Equal Protection clause.
BillyBob
06-06-2013, 11:37 AM
For Christians, there are no set times for prayer any more than there is a set day for the Sabbath.
red states rule
06-06-2013, 11:38 AM
I haven't read every word of this debate, but it seems to me that whether or not any religion mandates specific prayer times, the important point being lost here is that Christians have been repeatedly threatened with law suits for expressing their religion in school. To the point that schools are afraid of a lawsuit for Jeff's child saying a quiet pre-meal prayer. To have this accommodation made in the face of all that is grossly hypocritical. And arguably violates (I'm really reaching back in memory here, so not sure on this) the Equal Protection clause.
Abbey it is now "cool" to smear, insult, threaten, and sue Christians
Sadly, the hate that is shown toward Christains workwide is reaching the same level af hate Jews experienced in Germany in the late 20's and early 30's
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 11:39 AM
I haven't read every word of this debate, but it seems to me that whether or not any religion mandates specific prayer times, the important point being lost here is that Christians have been repeatedly threatened with law suits for expressing their religion in school. To the point that schools are afraid of a lawsuit for Jeff's child saying a quiet pre-meal prayer. To have this accommodation made in the face of all that is grossly hypocritical. And arguably violates (I'm really reaching back in memory here, so not sure on this) the Equal Protection clause.
Another angle that hasn't been mentioned yet. Supposedly these kids will be able to go and pray, out of class, only if they achieve a certain grade level? In other words, it doesn't even apply to all Muslims. So what if a Muslim kid just simply isn't as bright as others? He's "punished" and can't go pray with his friends? I never heard of intelligence being a factor as to whether or not one can say their prayers. This decision is not only not fair to all religions (that I can read), but is wholly unfair to the Muslim kids themselves.
Imagine the kid going home to his Dad. Little Abdul, why are you so upset? "Daddy, they told me in school that I can't say my prayers with the others because I only got a C in my class. I tried and tried and tried as hard as I could, but that's the best I was able to do. Why can I not pray with them, Dad?"
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 11:41 AM
For Christians, there are no set times for prayer any more than there is a set day for the Sabbath.
Can't get any more definitive then the canonical hours. Maybe what you should say is that not all Catholics observe what is expected of them? I will admit that not every Catholic likely prays at set hours, while a lot do, but there ARE 100% set times, whether people outside the Church itself follow it or not.
Abbey Marie
06-06-2013, 11:42 AM
Another angle that hasn't been mentioned yet. Supposedly these kids will be able to go and pray, out of class, only if they achieve a certain grade level? In other words, it doesn't even apply to all Muslims. So what if a Muslim kid just simply isn't as bright as others? He's "punished" and can't go pray with his friends? I never heard of intelligence being a factor as to whether or not one can say their prayers. This decision is not only not fair to all religions (that I can read), but is wholly unfair to the Muslim kids themselves.
Imagine the kid going home to his Dad. Little Abdul, why are you so upset? "Daddy, they told me in school that I can't say my prayers with the others because I only got a C in my class. I tried and tried and tried as hard as I could, but that's the best I was able to do. Why can I not pray with them, Dad?"
It is customary to deny extra-curricular activities to kids whose grades are poor, but this is a whole different thing. Where is the ACLU on this? Oh, that's right, they're too busy fighting Christianity.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=644215#post644215) show me something that proves the set times did not apply to the people then. Should be easy, right?
http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Missileman http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=644286#post644286)
[h=3]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours
Sounds like it applies to the people to me:
The Second Vatican Council (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.
you beat me to it.;)
BillyBob
06-06-2013, 11:43 AM
Can't get any more definitive then the canonical hours. Maybe what you should say is that not all Catholics observe what is expected of them? I will admit that not every Catholic likely prays at set hours, while a lot do, but there ARE 100% set times, whether people outside the Church itself follow it or not.
If it's not Scriptural, then it doesn't apply.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 11:47 AM
It is customary to deny extra-curricular activities to kids whose grades are poor, but this is a whole different thing. Where is the ACLU on this? Oh, that's right, they're too busy fighting Christianity.
Yep, they sure do deny certain things based on grades - but denying religion? That's an entirely different ballgame. Even some stated in this very thread that it's mandatory for Muslims and they need to pray 5 times per day. Well, if it's mandatory, why deny it to underachieving kids? It's an insult to ALL religions for a SCHOOL to tell any of us when we should pray and what we need to do in order to get that "privilege". They are denying certain kids the ability to pray while giving it to others. Nowhere in any religion that I am aware of is getting good grades a prerequisite for having a connection with God, or whatever their religion chooses to have faith in. And just as much as I stated that they should allow Christians and Catholics, I would say it equally to the Muslim kids who would be denied - either give the accommodation to all, or none.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 11:50 AM
If it's not Scriptural, then it doesn't apply.
If you read the thread in it's entirety, and followed my links, you would see that the 3 prayers per day are backed up with various verses. But regardless it would still apply, at least if you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church. If you are, then it applies to you whether there is verse or not. If you disagree with that, then you likely aren't a Catholic. NO ONE should be telling another that it doesn't apply. If someone doesn't follow, or is a Christian, or Baptist, or Lutheran... I don't tell them their way of following Christ is wrong because of differences, and neither should others tell some that following the Catholic Church be wrong. We all have different faiths, different ways of praying and different times when we choose to pray.
BillyBob
06-06-2013, 11:55 AM
If you read the thread in it's entirety, and followed my links, you would see that the 3 prayers per day are backed up with various verses. But regardless it would still apply, at least if you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church. If you are, then it applies to you whether there is verse or not. If you disagree with that, then you likely aren't a Catholic. NO ONE should be telling another that it doesn't apply. If someone doesn't follow, or is a Christian, or Baptist, or Lutheran... I don't tell them their way of following Christ is wrong because of differences, and neither should others tell some that following the Catholic Church be wrong. We all have different faiths, different ways of praying and different times when we choose to pray.
I'm not a Catholic nor do I condemn them for praying, that would be silly.
Let me be more clear. There's nothing in the Bible stating that the Lord requires or commands Christians to pray at certain times of the day.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 12:03 PM
I'm not a Catholic nor do I condemn them for praying, that would be silly.
Let me be more clear. There's nothing in the Bible stating that the Lord requires or commands Christians to pray at certain times of the day.
That is correct, but enough in there to see that Jesus did at certain times and wanted the Apostles to do the same. But commanded, no. But for Catholics, it IS kind of demanded, as it's in various forms down to canonical law. If one disagrees, then they are likely not Catholic. That's cool, and I harbor no ill will, but those people shouldn't tell me that I am wrong or that I shouldn't do so.
Some people say the Rosary every single day. Some read a portion of the Bible every day. There are lots of things that people do daily, which can run through families on down. Rarely are they mandatory, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it is somehow wrong.
Similar to confession. While some think it's wrong, that we should confess to no man, many of us also think a priest is a "lifeline" to Christ, in a manner. So if they choose to speak to God through an intermediary, so be it. Different strokes for different folks.
red states rule
06-06-2013, 12:07 PM
To spice things up a little
If Tarzan and Jane were Muslim, what would cheetah the chimpanzee be?
A: The smart one.
A: Pregnant.
A: The hated Jew
BillyBob
06-06-2013, 12:10 PM
That is correct, but enough in there to see that Jesus did at certain times and wanted the Apostles to do the same. But commanded, no. But for Catholics, it IS kind of demanded, as it's in various forms down to canonical law. If one disagrees, then they are likely not Catholic. That's cool, and I harbor no ill will, but those people shouldn't tell me that I am wrong or that I shouldn't do so.
Some people say the Rosary every single day. Some read a portion of the Bible every day. There are lots of things that people do daily, which can run through families on down. Rarely are they mandatory, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it is somehow wrong.
Similar to confession. While some think it's wrong, that we should confess to no man, many of us also think a priest is a "lifeline" to Christ, in a manner. So if they choose to speak to God through an intermediary, so be it. Different strokes for different folks.
We are in agreement. I will say this, more prayer could never hurt. [Unless you happen to be a muslim praying about jihad.]
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 12:13 PM
We are in agreement. I will say this, more prayer could never hurt. [Unless you happen to be a muslim praying about jihad.]
Remember this post of mine and save it....
Ever watch pre-race rituals of Nascar events? They always have a priest or similar come to give an invocation, and the 100,000+ in attendance love it. Then many times after NFL games, you will see anywhere from 10-30 of the players meet at midfield where the logos are, to pray together and thank God for the blessed abilities and that no one was hurt, or to pray for an injured person.
Now, how long before either of these leagues get complains and become politically correct, so as not to offend anyone? Nascar will be last, as their fan base will revolt of they do so. But I can see the NFL getting worse and worse about what they allow, and it's only a matter of time.
BillyBob
06-06-2013, 12:28 PM
Remember this post of mine and save it....
Ever watch pre-race rituals of Nascar events? They always have a priest or similar come to give an invocation, and the 100,000+ in attendance love it. Then many times after NFL games, you will see anywhere from 10-30 of the players meet at midfield where the logos are, to pray together and thank God for the blessed abilities and that no one was hurt, or to pray for an injured person.
Now, how long before either of these leagues get complains and become politically correct, so as not to offend anyone? Nascar will be last, as their fan base will revolt of they do so. But I can see the NFL getting worse and worse about what they allow, and it's only a matter of time.
Football games are very patriotic. The sing the National anthem, there is always a showing of the US military, often times a fly-over or a paratrooper dropping in. I've seen the American flag nearly the size of the field carried on and unfolded by military personnel and so on. I've seen a Bald Eagle released to fly a couple laps around the field. I've seen those soldiers that do that cool routine with there guns. [I've been to a lot of Football games]
It's probably the real reason the left is attacking the NFL.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 12:33 PM
Football games are very patriotic. The sing the National anthem, there is always a showing of the US military, often times a fly-over or a paratrooper dropping in. I've seen the American flag nearly the size of the field carried on and unfolded by military personnel and so on. I've seen a Bald Eagle released to fly a couple laps around the field. I've seen those soldiers that do that cool routine with there guns. [I've been to a lot of Football games]
It's probably the real reason the left is attacking the NFL.
Yep, the NFL has always been huge supporters of our military. They always have some sort of 'guard' on hand for every game, the huge flags like you point out, the fly-overs... Many times they will even go abroad and broadcast so that those overseas on duty get to watch the games. You would be surprised how many terrible towels you see from our troops! :)
BillyBob
06-06-2013, 12:44 PM
Yep, the NFL has always been huge supporters of our military. They always have some sort of 'guard' on hand for every game, the huge flags like you point out, the fly-overs... Many times they will even go abroad and broadcast so that those overseas on duty get to watch the games. You would be surprised how many terrible towels you see from our troops! :)
I never understood what is so terrible about a yellow towel?
Go Browns!
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2n52qa5TH1r5ykg1.jpg
aboutime
06-06-2013, 01:35 PM
to spice things up a little
if tarzan and jane were muslim, what would cheetah the chimpanzee be?
A: The smart one.
A: Pregnant.
A: The hated jew
a: Dinner.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 01:39 PM
I never understood what is so terrible about a yellow towel?
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZqYrCFACXsw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Missileman
06-06-2013, 01:44 PM
you beat me to it.;)
You asked to me show that the Liturgy of the Hours wasn't traditional for the laity. The link I posted does exactly that.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 01:51 PM
You asked to me show that the Liturgy of the Hours wasn't traditional for the laity. The link I posted does exactly that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours
The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).
The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), has formed part of the Church's public worship from the earliest times.
end
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:01 PM
^^ Good post, Marcus. At least some will see it for what it is and realize I didn't make things up or lie. Admittedly I'm no expert on terminology and what not, I'm FAR from a perfect Catholic. But I know what I was taught when I was a kid and I know what others follow. Why anyone at all would be so adamant that something like this doesn't exist is beyond me.
It goes back full circle then. The Muslim kids are perhaps being given an opportunity to pray, on class time, and to leave class to do so. My inquiries remain the same from the beginning - are they offering the same accommodations to others? Someone or a few intimated it was different as Muslims pray at specified times. I think now that it's been CLEARLY shown that Catholics, under canonical law, have similar times. Granted, Catholics can have these hours changed, pray at other times, or miss them altogether without punishment. But that doesn't mean that those who do follow the hours should be treated differently than others who are accommodated. And if one says that a Catholic can say their prayers at any give time, outside of what canonical law calls for, then so can Muslim children, where the religion only expects one to make up the prayer if they cannot do it on time. Sounds almost identical to me.
Missileman
06-06-2013, 02:16 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours
end
Why would the Vatican need to encourage the laity to take up the Liturgy if they already had a tradition of doing it?
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:19 PM
Well said. It seems that the Old Testament is irrelevant to Christians until it serves a useful purpose to uphold what is written in there.
I suppose if you kept up with the rest of the thread, you know that this is still currently a part of the Catholic Church. Your desire to hop on the back of an atheist and somehow toss out an insult towards Catholics, well it fell flat. I would suggest that you stick with what you do know instead of insulting Christians and how they pray, based on incorrect information from another persons post. And I certainly don't try and teach CHILDREN to be defiant to their teachers in school.
Ugh...I see the Catholic bashing has carried over to this thread too. I am not even close to Catholic, but the bashing does get old.
What's the purpose?
Thought this thread was about Muslim's and prayer in schools...shrug
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 02:21 PM
Why would the Vatican need to encourage the laity to take up the Liturgy if they already had a tradition of doing it?
you are being willfully stupid, and continually ignoring this...
The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), has formed part of the Church's public worship from the earliest times.
Missileman
06-06-2013, 02:21 PM
Ugh...I see the Catholic bashing has carried over to this thread too. I am not even close to Catholic, but the bashing does get old.
What's the purpose?
Thought this thread was about Muslim's and prayer in schools...shrug
Where has anyone bashed Catholics in this thread?
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 02:24 PM
http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jafar00 http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=643573#post643573)
Well said. It seems that the Old Testament is irrelevant to Christians until it serves a useful purpose to uphold what is written in there.
I suppose if you kept up with the rest of the thread, you know that this is still currently a part of the Catholic Church. Your desire to hop on the back of an atheist and somehow toss out an insult towards Catholics, well it fell flat. I would suggest that you stick with what you do know instead of insulting Christians and how they pray, based on incorrect information from another persons post. And I certainly don't try and teach CHILDREN to be defiant to their teachers in school.
I think the bigger message in Jahil's post, is that he's being hypocritical... since he at various times claims the parts of the Qur'aan that agree with his opinion are to be followed always, but the parts of the Qur'aan that do not agree with his opinion are only for certain ancient times and not to be followed today... rendering it irrelevant.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:24 PM
Why would the Vatican need to encourage the laity to take up the Liturgy if they already had a tradition of doing it?
Because not everyone follows every last detail. They likely feel the encouragement might prompt them to be more 'Catholic'. The Church I go to encourages prayer every single week, even though the majority of parishioners already pray. They encourage spreading love, even thought the tradition has long been there. They encourage spreading peace, and turning to your fellow parishioners to offer the sign of peace, even though there has been a long tradition of this. They encourage things in almost every single mass and communication, and much of it already has a long traditional roots in Catholicism.
Face it, you were wrong, no other way to slice it. There ARE set hours as I stated from the beginning. Rather than just be a man and admit you were wrong, you'll now go off on semantics and play games. The canonical hours have been there for a LONG LONG time. How would you even have a CLUE who chooses to follow this and who doesn't? I mean, you've met that many Catholics to, as an atheist, claim that no one follows this? That's absurd. Everything I have stated has been backed up with facts.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:26 PM
Where has anyone bashed Catholics in this thread?
Mainly you just bashing a Catholic and implying to everyone who has read the thread that I am lying or ignorant of my own religion that I have followed for 40+ years. Cool though, all cool with me, I'd much rather win out on facts.
Missileman
06-06-2013, 02:30 PM
you are being willfully stupid, and continually ignoring this...
I'm not arguing that the liturgy doesn't exist. I'm not arguing that it hasn't been a part of the Catholic Church since it's beginnings. I'm certainly not ignoring anything.
How about just answering the question?
Why would the Vatican need to encourage the laity to take up the Liturgy if they already had a tradition of doing it?
Missileman
06-06-2013, 02:35 PM
Mainly you just bashing a Catholic and implying to everyone who has read the thread that I am lying or ignorant of my own religion that I have followed for 40+ years. Cool though, all cool with me, I'd much rather win out on facts.
I haven't said anything anti-Catholic in this thread and your accusation that I've been bashing you IS a lie.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 02:36 PM
I'm not arguing that the liturgy doesn't exist. I'm not arguing that it hasn't been a part of the Catholic Church since it's beginnings. I'm certainly not ignoring anything.
How about just answering the question?
Why would the Vatican need to encourage the laity to take up the Liturgy if they already had a tradition of doing it?
I did not SAY you claimed it didn't exist. Do try to keep up.
YOU keep saying it was not part of the deal for laity early on... and I've posted a link (as have others) which says it HAS been part of the deal for laity from early on. YOU just keep pretending we never posted those links and claim we said somethign we didn't.
Willfully stupid.
It boggles the mind that you cannot understand the words 'from the earliest times', and somehow think they mean 'not from the earliest times'. It's like you're saying oranges are not orange.
The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), has formed part of the Church's public worship from the earliest times.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:39 PM
I haven't said anything anti-Catholic in this thread and your accusation that I've been bashing you IS a lie.
Implying that I am a liar, that something in MY religion is not law/tradition, and not having the 'nads to admit you were wrong when faced with FACT that it is canonical law - tells me that you want to bash my opinion about equality and Catholics perhaps wanting to pray at specific times too. You are STILL trying to fight that it's law for the laity and still implying others don't want to or don't follow this law/tradition.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:40 PM
I did not SAY you claimed it didn't exist. Do try to keep up.
YOU keep saying it was not part of the deal for laity early on... and I've posted a link (as have others) which says it HAS been part of the deal for laity from early on. YOU just keep pretending we never posted those links and claim we said somethign we didn't.
Willfully stupid.
It boggles the mind that you cannot understand the words 'from the earliest times', and somehow think they mean 'not from the earliest times'. It's like you're saying oranges are not orange.
But he KNOWS Catholics, maybe in the tens of thousands even. So nevermind canonical law and all the other proof given, he hasn't seen it, therefore it cannot be tradition.
Missileman
06-06-2013, 02:41 PM
I did not SAY you claimed it didn't exist. Do try to keep up.
YOU keep saying it was not part of the deal for laity early on... and I've posted a link (as have others) which says it HAS been part of the deal for laity from early on. YOU just keep pretending we never posted those links and claim we said somethign we didn't.
Willfully stupid.
It boggles the mind that you cannot understand the words 'from the earliest times', and somehow think they mean 'not from the earliest times'. It's like you're saying oranges are not orange.
And yet YOU ignore and leave the question unanswered again.
Why would the Vatican need to encourage the laity to take up the Liturgy if they already had a tradition of doing it?
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:43 PM
And yet YOU ignore and leave the question unanswered again.
Why would the Vatican need to encourage the laity to take up the Liturgy if they already had a tradition of doing it?
They also encourage all kinds of things around Christmas time. Do you also think celebrating Christmas is not a tradition? My church has an entire month of festivities encouraging good will and love for the season. It's a good thing they did this too, as I never would have known had they not!
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 02:45 PM
And yet YOU ignore and leave the question unanswered again.
Why would the Vatican need to encourage the laity to take up the Liturgy if they already had a tradition of doing it?
My son has been in the Boy Scouts of America program for almost 7 years now... first in Cub Scouts, now Boy Scouts. I encourage him to keep it up, and put in the effort to achieve his goals.
Why would a father need to encourage his son to keep up his efforts in scouting if he already had a tradition of doing it?
Because that's what parents do.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:48 PM
And of course it appears I am not alone in stating the prayers are traditional
The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), has formed part of the Church's public worship from the earliest times. Christians of both Eastern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Christianity) and Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Christianity) traditions (including the Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic), Eastern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church), Oriental Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy), Anglican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican), and Lutheran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran) churches) celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours under various names.
Traditional Roman Breviary
By the end of the 5th century, the Liturgy of the Hours was composed of seven offices. Of these seven, Compline seems to have been the last to appear, because the 4th century Apostolic Constitutions VIII iv 34 do not mention it in the exhortation "Offer up your prayers in the morning, at the third hour, the sixth, the ninth, the evening, and at cock-crowing".[6] An eighth office, Prime, was added by Benedict of Nursia in the 6th century. These eight are known by the following names:
Matins (during the night, at midnight with some); also called Vigils or Nocturns or, in monastic usage, the Night Office
Lauds or Dawn Prayer (at Dawn, or 3 a.m.)
Prime or Early Morning Prayer (First Hour = approximately 6 a.m.)
Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer (Third Hour = approximately 9 a.m.)
Sext or Midday Prayer (Sixth Hour = approximately 12 noon)
None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer (Ninth Hour = approximately 3 p.m.)
Vespers or Evening Prayer ("at the lighting of the lamps", generally at 6 p.m.)
Compline or Night Prayer (before retiring, generally at 9 p.m.)
This arrangement of the Liturgy of the Hours is attributed to Saint Benedict. However, it is found in Saint John Cassian's Institutes and Conferences,[7] which describe the monastic practices of the Desert Fathers of Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#Traditional_Roman_Breviary
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:50 PM
The 3 prayers exist - proven
It is part of Catholic law - proven
It is part of TRADITION - proven
One can also state it as "game, set and match".
Missileman
06-06-2013, 02:52 PM
Implying that I am a liar, that something in MY religion is not law/tradition, and not having the 'nads to admit you were wrong when faced with FACT that it is canonical law - tells me that you want to bash my opinion about equality and Catholics perhaps wanting to pray at specific times too. You are STILL trying to fight that it's law for the laity and still implying others don't want to or don't follow this law/tradition.
Implying that you're wrong isn't implying that you're lying. However, repeating a false accusation against me is reason to slide right on past implying and state unequivocally you're a liar.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 02:52 PM
The 3 prayers exist - proven
It is part of Catholic law - proven
It is part of TRADITION - proven
One can also state it as "game, set and match".
Missileman:
http://www.michaelhanscom.com/eclecticism/graphics/2003/07/graphics/lalalala.gif
Missileman
06-06-2013, 02:57 PM
My son has been in the Boy Scouts of America program for almost 7 years now... first in Cub Scouts, now Boy Scouts. I encourage him to keep it up, and put in the effort to achieve his goals.
Why would a father need to encourage his son to keep up his efforts in scouting if he already had a tradition of doing it?
Because that's what parents do.
So you're answer to my question is: Suggesting to your kid that he should join the cub scouts when he gets home from his cub scout meeting. ROFL
Missileman
06-06-2013, 02:59 PM
The 3 prayers exist - proven
It is part of Catholic law - proven
It is part of TRADITION - proven
One can also state it as "game, set and match".
A tradtion of the laity - NOT EVEN CLOSE!
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 02:59 PM
Missileman:
Doesn't even bother me at this point if he listens or not. I've proven everything last thing I have stated. All that apparently is remaining is whether or not an atheist agrees to whether or not it is part of Catholic tradition. I know it as fact, I don't need an atheist to believe it for it to remain fact.
All that I would like to find out at this point, from that school, is whether or not they will be giving the same ability to pray to the Catholics who choose to follow traditional Breviary. If it's allowed for all religions, I think it's an awesome step. If it's not allowed for all - then it shouldn't be allowed for any.
BillyBob
06-06-2013, 03:03 PM
The topic of this thread was football last time I checked, what happened?
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 03:03 PM
A tradtion of the laity - NOT EVEN CLOSE!
I've stated this about 300x since 2003 - it's also traditional that when people get angry from being proven wrong, they start to rush their posts and make spelling mistakes. It's the first sign that I've kicked someone's ass with facts.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 03:04 PM
The topic of this thread was football last time I checked, what happened?
You scared people into religion by posting that Cleveland Brownie crap! :coffee:
BillyBob
06-06-2013, 03:07 PM
You scared people into religion by posting that Cleveland Brownie crap! :coffee:
It takes a lot of faith to be a Browns fan lately. I went to the Browns/Bengals game last year in Cleveland, it was the first Browns win since the middle of the previous season. You'da thought they won the Superbowl. :laugh:
OK, as you were.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 03:07 PM
A tradtion of the laity - NOT EVEN CLOSE!
The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), has formed part of the Church's public worship from the earliest times.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tradition
tra·di·tion [truh-dish-uhhttp://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://static.sfdict.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Show IPA
noun 1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, especially by word (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/word) of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/break) with tradition.
4. a continuing pattern of culture (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/culture) beliefs or practices.
5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.
The words 'from the earliest times, certainly fulfill the definition of the word 'tradition'.
So, BY DEFINITION...
The Liturgy of the Hours, along with the Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), has formed part of the Church's public worship from the earliest times.
is a tradition of the Church's public worship (public... laity).
You're wrong, MM. Live with it.
Missileman
06-06-2013, 03:12 PM
I've stated this about 300x since 2003 - it's also traditional that when people get angry from being proven wrong, they start to rush their posts and make spelling mistakes. It's the first sign that I've kicked someone's ass with facts.
It's more traditional that when someone's faced with an irrefutable argument, they start pointing out spelling mistakes so they don't have to deal with it. Also traditionally, they quickly follow that up with expressions of victory.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 03:20 PM
It's more traditional that when someone's faced with an irrefutable argument, they start pointing out spelling mistakes so they don't have to deal with it. Also traditionally, they quickly follow that up with expressions of victory.
the only thing irrefutable about your argument is that it's full of shit, just like you.:laugh:
Face it, MM... you've been PWNED since about a third of the way into this thread:laugh2:
aboutime
06-06-2013, 03:23 PM
It's more traditional that when someone's faced with an irrefutable argument, they start pointing out spelling mistakes so they don't have to deal with it. Also traditionally, they quickly follow that up with expressions of victory.
Missileman. Do you honestly have any idea how many members who think like you, here on this forum actually DO exactly as you described above?
Sounds like that expression of Victory you mentioned...should come from those who are just like you...now that you've OUTED them.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 03:25 PM
It's more traditional that when someone's faced with an irrefutable argument, they start pointing out spelling mistakes so they don't have to deal with it. Also traditionally, they quickly follow that up with expressions of victory.
You don't know Catholic tradition. You are an atheist. You were proven wrong from every angle and it's been proven that Catholics have set hours to pray and that its a tradition from a long, long, long time ago, in addition to Catholic law. Your whining won't change that. It's been pointed out to you by no less than 4 people, but you still act like you know Catholicism more than them, and I. So be it, you won't be the last to claim superiority about something you actually know very little about. I can handle an atheist being wrong. All cool in my book too! :)
I've also said time and time again on here, that honorable MEN admit when they are wrong. I've done it many times myself. I won't go so low as to say you are not a man, but you sure as hell are not honorable in your defeat, that's for sure. All you have left to cling to is the word tradition. And to claim it's not a Catholic tradition, even though I've shown that it's been around FOREVER and even the Catholic Church itself calls it tradition. Tell me and them they're wrong. I'll also swear that the sky is pink with green polka dots too. :rolleyes:
Missileman
06-06-2013, 03:26 PM
the only thing irrefutable about your argument is that it's full of shit, just like you.:laugh:
Face it, MM... you've been PWNED since about a third of the way into this thread:laugh2:
Yeah...it's also traditional for the ignorant lackey to come along to offer expressions of victory. You can identify the ignorant lackey by his use of PWNED.
aboutime
06-06-2013, 03:28 PM
Yeah...it's also traditional for the ignorant lackey to come along to offer expressions of victory. You can identify the ignorant lackey by his use of PWNED.
So...missileman. How long have you enjoyed your LACKEY status?
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 03:29 PM
Yeah...it's also traditional for the ignorant lackey to come along to offer expressions of victory. You can identify the ignorant lackey by his use of PWNED.
have you always had this narcissistic need to be right when you've been proven wrong, or has it recently emerged?
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 03:35 PM
have you always had this narcissistic need to be right when you've been proven wrong, or has it recently emerged?
Don't sweat it. The facts have been posted by at least 4 of us over and over. Let him be right if he wants. Sometimes it's best to sit back and let the factual posts you made do their own work. Only another uninformed atheist would actually read this thread and still think it's not long rooted tradition for many, not to mention canonical law, to pray at those set times daily.
Missileman
06-06-2013, 03:49 PM
You don't know Catholic tradition. You are an atheist. You were proven wrong from every angle and it's been proven that Catholics have set hours to pray and that its a tradition from a long, long, long time ago, in addition to Catholic law. Your whining won't change that. It's been pointed out to you by no less than 4 people, but you still act like you know Catholicism more than them, and I. So be it, you won't be the last to claim superiority about something you actually know very little about. I can handle an atheist being wrong. All cool in my book too! :)
I've also said time and time again on here, that honorable MEN admit when they are wrong. I've done it many times myself. I won't go so low as to say you are not a man, but you sure as hell are not honorable in your defeat, that's for sure. All you have left to cling to is the word tradition. And to claim it's not a Catholic tradition, even though I've shown that it's been around FOREVER and even the Catholic Church itself calls it tradition. Tell me and them they're wrong. I'll also swear that the sky is pink with green polka dots too. :rolleyes:
The Liturgy of the Hours is the daily schedule for a Catholic CHURCH, not every Catholic. Yes, there may be some Catholics out there who try to get in a daily prayer at 9, 12 and 3, but that doesn't, repeat doesn't equal set times for Christians to pray.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 03:54 PM
The Liturgy of the Hours is the daily schedule for a Catholic CHURCH, not every Catholic. Yes, there may be some Catholics out there who try to get in a daily prayer at 9, 12 and 3, but that doesn't, repeat doesn't equal set times for Christians to pray.
Further proof you're a complete moron.
The Catholic Church IS the people... the laity themselves.... not a building.
aboutime
06-06-2013, 04:02 PM
Further proof you're a complete moron.
The Catholic Church IS the people... the laity themselves.... not a building.
Marcus. This has become some really useless, comical stuff.
Do you happen to know why MM feels such a deep seated need to continue with such a worthless, absolute useless demand for being totally right, while everyone else MUST BE WRONG????
Sounds like an Ongoing script session on a Thursday...just before AIR TIME on Saturday Nite Live.
What does any of it matter to anyone now????
I can't ask MM, since doing so would just make me laugh.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 04:03 PM
The Liturgy of the Hours is the daily schedule for a Catholic CHURCH, not every Catholic. Yes, there may be some Catholics out there who try to get in a daily prayer at 9, 12 and 3, but that doesn't, repeat doesn't equal set times for Christians to pray.
It's already been posted for you - the Liturgy hours are supposed to be followed by the laity as well - that IS the Catholic people. Why is that so hard to understand. It was clearly posted, and I'll do so again. Notice where it includes the laity at the end, and that this is prescribed by the Catholic Church. The laity are followers of the Catholic Church. I don't know how much clearer this can get. It's canonical law that is supposed to apply to ALL in the Catholic Church.
The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity). <--------- LAITY, LAITY, LAITY
It IS there for every Catholic, not just those in the Vatican or Priests or the equivalent. These ARE set times for Catholics, it's extremely clear that there are, or why list them and state that it's to be recited by the laity? Just because the folk you know don't follow this - does NOT mean it's not right there for all to read as canonical law.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 04:05 PM
Marcus. This has become some really useless, comical stuff.
Do you happen to know why MM feels such a deep seated need to continue with such a worthless, absolute useless demand for being totally right, while everyone else MUST BE WRONG????
Sounds like an Ongoing script session on a Thursday...just before AIR TIME on Saturday Nite Live.
What does any of it matter to anyone now????
I can't ask MM, since doing so would just make me laugh.
um... because he had yet another therapist quit on him?
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 04:06 PM
Further proof you're a complete moron.
The Catholic Church IS the people... the laity themselves.... not a building.
Even if separate, it states that the laity is prescribed these times anyhow. But you are correct, many say they are simply a part of the Catholic Church, or of the Roman Catholic Church.
Abbey Marie
06-06-2013, 04:09 PM
Ugh...I see the Catholic bashing has carried over to this thread too. I am not even close to Catholic, but the bashing does get old.
What's the purpose?
Thought this thread was about Muslim's and prayer in schools...shrug
I saw Jafaar make a snide remark about Christianity, but I saw no Catholic-bashing per se. Just a long and serious disagreement on traditional prayer times in the Catholic Church.
Missileman
06-06-2013, 04:12 PM
Further proof you're a complete moron.
The Catholic Church IS the people... the laity themselves.... not a building.
In your haste to be an asshat, you've read into what I wrote something that isn't there.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 04:13 PM
I saw Jafaar make a snide remark about Christianity, but I saw no Catholic-bashing, per se. Just a long disagreement on traditional prayer times.
And Jafar is certainly entitled to, especially considering he takes more than his share in his direction - he'd just be wiser to make remarks that were on target or based in some sort of truth. He thought he was slick and was going to claim this is all nothing but Old Testament stuff, that we only go to when we want to - before he knew it was part of current law and prescriptions. This is why I try as hard as I can not to learn more about my faith from atheists and muslims. :)
Missileman
06-06-2013, 04:21 PM
It's already been posted for you - the Liturgy hours are supposed to be followed by the laity as well - that IS the Catholic people. Why is that so hard to understand. It was clearly posted, and I'll do so again. Notice where it includes the laity at the end, and that this is prescribed by the Catholic Church. The laity are followers of the Catholic Church. I don't know how much clearer this can get. It's canonical law that is supposed to apply to ALL in the Catholic Church.
The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity). <--------- LAITY, LAITY, LAITY
It IS there for every Catholic, not just those in the Vatican or Priests or the equivalent. These ARE set times for Catholics, it's extremely clear that there are, or why list them and state that it's to be recited by the laity? Just because the folk you know don't follow this - does NOT mean it's not right there for all to read as canonical law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours
Liturgy of the Hours of Paul VI[edit (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_the_Hours&action=edit§ion=4)]
After the Second Vatican Council (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council), Pope Paul VI (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Paul_VI) promulgated a new Roman Breviary, commonly referred to as "Liturgy of the Hours." The structure of the offices, the distribution of psalms, and the prayers themselves were modified. Prime was suppressed entirely. In short, the burden was lessened. "Major" and "minor" hours were defined:
The Officium lectionis, or Office of Readings, (formerly Matins (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Matins#Roman_liturgy_of_recent_centuries)) — major hour
Lauds or Morning prayer — major hour
Daytime prayer (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Little_Hours), which can be one or all of:
Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer
Sext or Midday Prayer
None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer
Vespers or Evening Prayer — major hour
Compline or Night Prayer
All hours, including the minor hours, start with the versicle (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Versicle) from Ps 69(70) v. 2 (as do all offices in the traditional Breviary except Matins and Compline): "V. Deus in adjutorium meum intende. R. Domine ad adjuvandum me festina" (God come to my assistance, Lord make haste to help me), followed by the doxology (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Glory_Be_to_the_Father). The verse is omitted if the hour begins with the Invitatory (Lauds or Office of Reading). The Invitatory (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Invitatory) is the introduction to the first hour said on the current day, whether it be the Office of Readings or Morning Prayer. The opening is followed by a hymn (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Hymn). The hymn is followed by psalmody (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Latin_Psalters). The psalmody is followed by a scripture reading. The reading is called a chapter (capitula) if it is short, or a lesson (lectio) if it is long. The reading is followed by a versicle. The hour is closed by an oration followed by a concluding versicle. Other components are included depending on the exact type of hour being celebrated. In each office, the psalms and canticle are framed by antiphons (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Antiphon), and each concludes with the traditional Catholic doxology (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Doxology).
Major hours[edit (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_the_Hours&action=edit§ion=5)]
The major hours consist of the Office of Readings, Morning (or Lauds) and Evening Prayer (or Vespers).
The Office of Readings consists of:
opening versicle or invitatory
a hymn
one or two long psalms divided into three parts
a long passage from scripture, usually arranged so that in any one week, all the readings come from the same text
a long hagiographical passage, such as an account of a saint (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Saint)'s martyrdom (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Martyr), or a theological treatise commenting on some aspect of the scriptural reading, or a passage from the documents of the Second Vatican Council
on nights preceding Sundays and feast days, the office may be expanded to a vigil by inserting three Old Testament (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Old_Testament) canticles and a reading from the gospels (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Gospels)
the hymn Te Deum (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Te_Deum) (on Sundays, solemnities, and feasts, except in Lent)
the concluding prayer
a short concluding verse (especially when prayed in groups)
The character of Morning Prayer is that of praise; of Evening Prayer, that of thanksgiving. Both follow a similar format:
opening versicle or (for morning prayer) the invitatory
a hymn, composed by the Church
two psalms, or parts of psalms with a scriptural canticle. At Morning Prayer, this consists of a psalm of praise (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Psalm_of_praise&action=edit&redlink=1), a canticle from the Old Testament, followed by another psalm. At Evening Prayer this consists of two psalms, or one psalm divided into two parts, and a scriptural canticle taken from the New Testament (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/New_Testament).
a short passage from scripture
a responsory (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Responsory), typically a verse of scripture, but sometimes liturgical poetry
a canticle taken from the Gospel of Luke (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke): the Canticle of Zechariah (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Canticle_of_Zechariah) (Benedictus) for morning prayer, and the Canticle of Mary (Magnificat (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Magnificat)) for evening prayer
intercessions, composed by the Church
the Lord's Prayer (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer)
the concluding prayer, composed by the Church
a blessing given by the priest (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Priest) or deacon (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Deacon) leading Morning or Evening Prayer, or in the absence of clergy and in individual recitation, a short concluding versicle.
Minor hours[edit (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_the_Hours&action=edit§ion=6)]
The daytime hours follow a simpler format, like a very compact form of the Office of Readings:
opening versicle
a hymn
three short psalms, or, three pieces of longer psalms; in the daytime hours when only one is said it follows a variable psalmody which usually opens with part of the longest psalm, psalm 118/119, when all three are said this psalmody is used at one of the hours, while the other two follow the complementary psalmody which consists of 119/120-121/122 at Terce, 122/123-124/125 at Sext and 125/126-127/128 at None
a very short passage of scripture, followed by a responsorial verse
the concluding prayer
a short concluding verse (V. Benedicamus Domino R. Deo gratias)
Night prayer has the character of preparing the soul for its passage to eternal life:
opening versicle
an examination of conscience (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Examination_of_conscience)
a hymn
a psalm, or two short psalms; The psalms of Sunday - Psalm 90/91 or 4 & 133/134 - may always be used as an alternative to the psalm(s) appointed on weekdays
a short reading from scripture
the responsory In manus tuas, Domine (Into Your Hands, Lord)
the Canticle of Simeon, Nunc dimittis (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Nunc_dimittis), from the Gospel of Luke, framed by the antiphon Salva nos (Save us Lord)
a concluding prayer
a short blessing (noctem quietam et finem perfectum concedat nobis dominus omnipotens. Amen.)
Marian antiphon (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Marian_antiphon) without versicle and concluding prayer; either one of the four traditional seasonal antiphons, or Sub Tuum, or another antiphon approved by the local episcopal conference; the Regina Caeli is always used in Eastertide.
That's NOT a schedule to be followed by the laity.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 04:25 PM
Liturgy of the Hours of Paul VI[edit (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_the_Hours&action=edit§ion=4)]
After the Second Vatican Council (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council), Pope Paul VI (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Paul_VI) promulgated a new Roman Breviary, commonly referred to as "Liturgy of the Hours." The structure of the offices, the distribution of psalms, and the prayers themselves were modified. Prime was suppressed entirely. In short, the burden was lessened. "Major" and "minor" hours were defined:
The Officium lectionis, or Office of Readings, (formerly Matins (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Matins#Roman_liturgy_of_recent_centuries)) — major hour
Lauds or Morning prayer — major hour
Daytime prayer (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Little_Hours), which can be one or all of:
Terce or Mid-Morning Prayer
Sext or Midday Prayer
None or Mid-Afternoon Prayer
Vespers or Evening Prayer — major hour
Compline or Night Prayer
All hours, including the minor hours, start with the versicle (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Versicle) from Ps 69(70) v. 2 (as do all offices in the traditional Breviary except Matins and Compline): "V. Deus in adjutorium meum intende. R. Domine ad adjuvandum me festina" (God come to my assistance, Lord make haste to help me), followed by the doxology (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Glory_Be_to_the_Father). The verse is omitted if the hour begins with the Invitatory (Lauds or Office of Reading). The Invitatory (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Invitatory) is the introduction to the first hour said on the current day, whether it be the Office of Readings or Morning Prayer. The opening is followed by a hymn (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Hymn). The hymn is followed by psalmody (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Latin_Psalters). The psalmody is followed by a scripture reading. The reading is called a chapter (capitula) if it is short, or a lesson (lectio) if it is long. The reading is followed by a versicle. The hour is closed by an oration followed by a concluding versicle. Other components are included depending on the exact type of hour being celebrated. In each office, the psalms and canticle are framed by antiphons (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Antiphon), and each concludes with the traditional Catholic doxology (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Doxology).
Major hours[edit (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_the_Hours&action=edit§ion=5)]
The major hours consist of the Office of Readings, Morning (or Lauds) and Evening Prayer (or Vespers).
The Office of Readings consists of:
opening versicle or invitatory
a hymn
one or two long psalms divided into three parts
a long passage from scripture, usually arranged so that in any one week, all the readings come from the same text
a long hagiographical passage, such as an account of a saint (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Saint)'s martyrdom (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Martyr), or a theological treatise commenting on some aspect of the scriptural reading, or a passage from the documents of the Second Vatican Council
on nights preceding Sundays and feast days, the office may be expanded to a vigil by inserting three Old Testament (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Old_Testament) canticles and a reading from the gospels (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Gospels)
the hymn Te Deum (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Te_Deum) (on Sundays, solemnities, and feasts, except in Lent)
the concluding prayer
a short concluding verse (especially when prayed in groups)
The character of Morning Prayer is that of praise; of Evening Prayer, that of thanksgiving. Both follow a similar format:
opening versicle or (for morning prayer) the invitatory
a hymn, composed by the Church
two psalms, or parts of psalms with a scriptural canticle. At Morning Prayer, this consists of a psalm of praise (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Psalm_of_praise&action=edit&redlink=1), a canticle from the Old Testament, followed by another psalm. At Evening Prayer this consists of two psalms, or one psalm divided into two parts, and a scriptural canticle taken from the New Testament (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/New_Testament).
a short passage from scripture
a responsory (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Responsory), typically a verse of scripture, but sometimes liturgical poetry
a canticle taken from the Gospel of Luke (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke): the Canticle of Zechariah (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Canticle_of_Zechariah) (Benedictus) for morning prayer, and the Canticle of Mary (Magnificat (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Magnificat)) for evening prayer
intercessions, composed by the Church
the Lord's Prayer (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer)
the concluding prayer, composed by the Church
a blessing given by the priest (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Priest) or deacon (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Deacon) leading Morning or Evening Prayer, or in the absence of clergy and in individual recitation, a short concluding versicle.
Minor hours[edit (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_the_Hours&action=edit§ion=6)]
The daytime hours follow a simpler format, like a very compact form of the Office of Readings:
opening versicle
a hymn
three short psalms, or, three pieces of longer psalms; in the daytime hours when only one is said it follows a variable psalmody which usually opens with part of the longest psalm, psalm 118/119, when all three are said this psalmody is used at one of the hours, while the other two follow the complementary psalmody which consists of 119/120-121/122 at Terce, 122/123-124/125 at Sext and 125/126-127/128 at None
a very short passage of scripture, followed by a responsorial verse
the concluding prayer
a short concluding verse (V. Benedicamus Domino R. Deo gratias)
Night prayer has the character of preparing the soul for its passage to eternal life:
opening versicle
an examination of conscience (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Examination_of_conscience)
a hymn
a psalm, or two short psalms; The psalms of Sunday - Psalm 90/91 or 4 & 133/134 - may always be used as an alternative to the psalm(s) appointed on weekdays
a short reading from scripture
the responsory In manus tuas, Domine (Into Your Hands, Lord)
the Canticle of Simeon, Nunc dimittis (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Nunc_dimittis), from the Gospel of Luke, framed by the antiphon Salva nos (Save us Lord)
a concluding prayer
a short blessing (noctem quietam et finem perfectum concedat nobis dominus omnipotens. Amen.)
Marian antiphon (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Marian_antiphon) without versicle and concluding prayer; either one of the four traditional seasonal antiphons, or Sub Tuum, or another antiphon approved by the local episcopal conference; the Regina Caeli is always used in Eastertide.
That's NOT a schedule to be followed by the laity.
A... where's the link? You trying to get the board in trouble for copyright infringement?
B... multiple peole have posted multiple links showing the hours have been a tradition for the Catholic Church (the people, not the buildings) since the earliest times.
Live with your failure.
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 04:30 PM
Liturgy of the Hours of Paul VI[edit (http://www.debatepolicy.com/w/index.php?title=Liturgy_of_the_Hours&action=edit§ion=4)]
That's NOT a schedule to be followed by the laity.
Yes, because you didn't post the canonical hours. What you cut out, just above that, CLEARLY states: Traditional Roman Breviary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours
Missileman
06-06-2013, 04:31 PM
B... multiple peole have posted multiple links showing the hours have been a tradition for the Catholic Church (the people, not the buildings) since the earliest times.
I just posted a link that shows all of them. Were you going to make a point or thank me for posting the hours also?
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 04:32 PM
I just posted a link that shows all of them. Were you going to make a point or thank me for posting the hours also?
Not all of them for the laity - in fact - yours had NOTHING to do with the laity, which is in the category just above what you posted.
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 04:32 PM
laughing hilariously at Missileman's recent PM :laugh::laugh::laugh:
jimnyc
06-06-2013, 04:38 PM
laughing hilariously at Missileman's recent PM :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Please don't bring up private things on the board. You are free to reply to him, or report it to staff if it were a rules violation.
aboutime
06-06-2013, 04:39 PM
Please don't bring up private things on the board. You are free to reply to him, or report it to staff if it were a rules violation.
Seven
Marcus Aurelius
06-06-2013, 04:39 PM
I just posted a link that shows all of them. Were you going to make a point or thank me for posting the hours also?
from Jim's link...
Liturgy of the Hours From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#mw-navigation), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#p-search)
This article refers to the Liturgy of the Hours as a specific manifestation of the public prayer of the Roman Rite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rite) of the Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church). For its application in other liturgical rites of the Catholic Church and in other communions, see canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours).
Liturgy of the Hours... PUBLIC PRAYER... public being laity.
It's understandable that an atheist such as yourself would easily confuse themselves when trying to prove they know more about Catholocism than those who actually believe and practice it. Considering the well known mental deficiencies that trouble many atheists, I mean.
Missileman
06-06-2013, 04:40 PM
Yes, because you didn't post the canonical hours. What you cut out, just above that, CLEARLY states: Traditional Roman Breviary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours
I pasted the Liturgy of the Hours and according to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours
The current official version of the hours in the Latin Rite (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Latin_Rite) of the Roman Catholic Church (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church) is called the Liturgy of the Hours (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours) (Latin: Liturgia horarum) in North America or Divine Office in the British Isles.
what I posted was is correct.
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