Muslim Prayer Coming to a School Near You

[Missileman]

Not all of them for the laity - in fact - yours had NOTHING to do with the laity, which is in the category just above what you posted.

If I missed in those links which parts of the Liturgy are for the laity, please point to it...I'm not seeing it.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I pasted the Liturgy of the Hours and according to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours


The current official version of the hours in the Latin Rite (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Latin_Rite) of the Roman Catholic Church (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church) is called the Liturgy of the Hours (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours) (Latin: Liturgia horarum) in North America or Divine Office in the British Isles.

what I posted was is correct.

Which proves only it's the current official version. It does not prove it is not a long standing tradition.


dumb ass.

[gabosaurus]

Yet another DP thread turned into a garbage dump. :lame2:

[jimnyc]

If I missed in those links which parts of the Liturgy are for the laity, please point to it...I'm not seeing it.

Nothing anyone posts is going to matter. It's been posted like 20x now. It's right there that it's canonical hours and applies to the laity. The I'll add in further, from your link about canonical hours, of what current practice is:

The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).

Current practice Priests are required by canon law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law) to pray the entire Divine Office each day while permanent deacons are required to pray the morning and evening hours. All clerics are free to use the Liturgy of the Hours or the traditional Roman Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Breviary), according to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summorum_Pontificum), to fulfill this obligation. The practice among religious communities varies according to their rules (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rule) and constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution). The Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.

[jimnyc]

Which proves only it's the current official version. It does not prove it is not a long standing tradition.


dumb ass.

Read down on his own link to the "Current Practice" part. It calls for the laity to follow, and has it for the morning, midday and mid-afternoon.

[aboutime]

Yet another DP thread turned into a garbage dump. :lame2:


Agreed gabby. It smelled better before you got here.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=644535#post644535) Which proves only it's the current official version. It does not prove it is not a long standing tradition.


dumb ass.



Read down on his own link to the "Current Practice" part. It calls for the laity to follow, and has it for the morning, midday and mid-afternoon.

right. He was trying to imply that it was the 'current' practice, and not a long standing tradition. The current practice simply continues the long standing tradition. His own links are defeating him.

[jimnyc]

right. He was trying to imply that it was the 'current' practice, and not a long standing tradition. The current practice simply continues the long standing tradition. His own links are defeating him.

What would an atheist know about religious traditions anyway? It's been posted in 9 different ways as to why these hours are followed, where they came from, the early Catholics following it up until the current canonical law. Many may substitute which prayers they use at which time, but the tradition of praying in the morning, midday and late afternoon has remained the same.

But I did call my Grandmother to tell her that for the past 85+ years she has been doing things wrong, and I also sent a message to Francis explaining to him that the Church has things incorrect. I'll let you know should I get a response from him. :)

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pope-Francis/343680982398332?fref=ts

[Missileman]

Nothing anyone posts is going to matter. It's been posted like 20x now. It's right there that it's canonical hours and applies to the laity. The I'll add in further, from your link about canonical hours, of what current practice is:

The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).

Current practice

Priests are required by canon law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law) to pray the entire Divine Office each day while permanent deacons are required to pray the morning and evening hours. All clerics are free to use the Liturgy of the Hours or the traditional Roman Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Breviary), according to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summorum_Pontificum), to fulfill this obligation. The practice among religious communities varies according to their rules (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rule) and constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution). The Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.





The Liturgy of the Hours and canonical hours are the same thing.

[jimnyc]

The Liturgy of the Hours and canonical hours are the same thing.

Umm, no. This is how I know you have no clue!!

Canonical Hours - The canonical hours mark the divisions of the day in terms of periods of fixed prayer at regular intervals

Liturgy of the Hours - The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-1)
One is the actual hours where the liturgy is the prayers. The liturgy is PART of the canonical obligation.

It's obvious you're grasping.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The Liturgy of the Hours and canonical hours are the same thing.

you sound a lot like Jahil. All your sources are right, and everyone elses source are wrong. Extremely narcissistic of you.

[Missileman]

Umm, no. This is how I know you have no clue!!

Canonical Hours - The canonical hours mark the divisions of the day in terms of periods of fixed prayer at regular intervals

Liturgy of the Hours - The Liturgy of the Hours (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin): Liturgia Horarum) or Divine Office (Latin: Officium Divinum) or canonical hours (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours), often referred to as the Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary), is the official set of daily prayers prescribed by the Catholic Church to be recited by clergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clergy#Christian_clergy), religious institutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_institute), and laity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laity).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours#cite_note-1)
One is the actual hours where the liturgy is the prayers. The liturgy is PART of the canonical obligation.

It's obvious you're grasping.

You just quoted a link that said exactly what I wrote and then proceeded to tell me I'm wrong.

[Missileman]

you sound a lot like Jahil. All your sources are right, and everyone elses source are wrong. Extremely narcissistic of you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours


In western Catholicism (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church), canonical hours may also be called offices, since they refer to the official set of prayer of the Roman Catholic Church (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church) that is known variously as the Divine Office (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours) (from the Latin (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Latin) officium divinum meaning "divine service" or "divine duty"), and the Opus Dei (meaning in Latin, "Work of God"). The current official version of the hours in the Latin Rite (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Latin_Rite) of the Roman Catholic Church (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church) is called the Liturgy of the Hours (http://www.debatepolicy.com/wiki/Liturgy_of_the_Hours)


I'm not making this stuff up.

[jimnyc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_hours



I'm not making this stuff up.

Yes, and from that very same link:

Current practice Priests are required by canon law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law) to pray the entire Divine Office each day while permanent deacons are required to pray the morning and evening hours. All clerics are free to use the Liturgy of the Hours or the traditional Roman Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Breviary), according to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summorum_Pontificum), to fulfill this obligation. The practice among religious communities varies according to their rules (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rule) and constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution). The Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.

And I don't think you're making stuff up either, just have no clue about Catholic tradition and are looking for anything to prove something wrong, which you can't. EVERY single angle has the 3 prayers and that it's supposed to be recited by the laity.

Have fun if you will, Marcus, I'm going out into my backyard to argue with the first rock I come across.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Yes, and from that very same link:

Current practice

Priests are required by canon law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law) to pray the entire Divine Office each day while permanent deacons are required to pray the morning and evening hours. All clerics are free to use the Liturgy of the Hours or the traditional Roman Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Breviary), according to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summorum_Pontificum), to fulfill this obligation. The practice among religious communities varies according to their rules (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rule) and constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution). The Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.

And I don't think you're making stuff up either, just have no clue about Catholic tradition and are looking for anything to prove something wrong, which you can't. EVERY single angle has the 3 prayers and that it's supposed to be recited by the laity.

Have fun if you will, Marcus, I'm going out into my backyard to argue with the first rock I come across.

You'll get a more challenging argument from the rock than from MM.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I don't believe they are, as the article only noted Muslims being able to do so. Nor has any other article. But it would be a bit dumb to assume something is allowed, simply because something wasn't said saying it wasn't allowed. I guess Christians can have mass prayer over loudspeakers in this particular school too, and prayer lead events in the auditorium, as it doesn't say they didn't ask and it doesn't say it's not allowed. No other school in the nation am I aware of will allow students a break from attending class in order to pray. In fact, this revelation about Muslims being able to do so is the first I've ever heard of any student in a public school being exempt from an amount of class time on order to go pray. Logic would dictate that if it were allowed for other religions, one of hundreds of articles would mention as much.

What I mean to say is that all other forms of religious displays and prayers are kept out of school, except for this instance. To say "Christians are allowed to pray in school too" - when that means they can silently not offend anyone else - is much different than a student being treated like he achieved something and can therefore leave the class to pray as a reward of sorts.

As to what happens to the kids who don't pray - they would stand in the same place whether only Muslims left, or if all those who pray left. I assume the class moves forward, but the students leaving are exempt from that 10 minutes.

The rest is mumbo jumbo and predominance stuff is absurd. When it comes to respecting ones religion and accommodations of one religion - they should all be treated 100% equally. Islam in America has already told out politicians, "placate us--give us special status and maybe we will stop bombing you here, stop terrorizing you here. No they don't do it by taking out TV ads or newspaper ads rather they do it when voicing their demands face to face with the politicians and issuing their list of grievances//demands! They do it when crying about being so mistreated etc. FF-THEM ALL SAYS A TRUE AMERICAN! Today was the anniversary of an event that points to how real Americans stood up for not just our freedoms/rights but the future of this great nation. Yet now so many millions of Americans are too damn afraid to stand up to our own damn government! On D-day we had brave men climbing a high cliff up ropes while being shot with machine guns and blown apart with grenades tossed down by our enemy. Yet those men did not stop, did not cower and actually gained victory! Sad as hell what we as a nation have become.. What this administration has down would have caused a multi-million man march on Washington demanding the president's removal from office had it happened only 30/40 years ago. Today we have sold out bastards praising and defending the ffing traitor... -Tyr

[Missileman]

Yes, and from that very same link:

Current practice

Priests are required by canon law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_law) to pray the entire Divine Office each day while permanent deacons are required to pray the morning and evening hours. All clerics are free to use the Liturgy of the Hours or the traditional Roman Breviary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Breviary), according to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summorum_Pontificum), to fulfill this obligation. The practice among religious communities varies according to their rules (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rule) and constitutions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution). The Second Vatican Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council) also exhorted the Christian laity to take up the practice, and as a result, many lay people have begun reciting portions of the Liturgy of the Hours.

And I don't think you're making stuff up either, just have no clue about Catholic tradition and are looking for anything to prove something wrong, which you can't. EVERY single angle has the 3 prayers and that it's supposed to be recited by the laity.

Have fun if you will, Marcus, I'm going out into my backyard to argue with the first rock I come across.

If you're saying that it's your experience that some of the laity has adopted the 3 daytime prayers as their part of the canonical hours, fine. What's your take on this description of those prayers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Hours


These prayers are intended to be short enough to be memorized, to avoid interruption of work during the day.

Do you reckon that includes schoolwork?

[jimnyc]

If you're saying that it's your experience that some of the laity has adopted the 3 daytime prayers as their part of the canonical hours, fine. What's your take on this description of those prayers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Hours



Do you reckon that includes schoolwork?

As stated earlier, each person will have different prayers for the specified times. And yes, the majority of them CAN be stated silently, with arms straight up and sitting in position. Some though prefer to close their eyes, kneel and fold their hands. Some strictly follow Angelus. Some perform the rosary (try doing that in a public classroom). It's up to the individual as to how to apply their prayer. Some shouldn't have prayer shortened or rushed while others would be given time to go to an entirely different room to pray.

Just as Muslim kids, all around the nation save this one school, either skip prayer, or make it up later. It's "Qadaa" and typical. If every other Muslim kid in public school can manage, I'm confident the handful in this one school can manage as well. BUT, if you want to grant them an accommodation to go prayer elsewhere on class time, they should allow this for the kids who aren't as smart, as well as other religions.

Surely if a school is going to venture into new territory, and allow Muslim kids an opportunity that no others have in public school, they should simply allow others the same.