Religious freedom is for ALL religions

[WiccanLiberal]

I have always believed one's religion is an essential part of one's life and that legal public expression of it should not be an issue for anyone. You want to hire out a local park for a church picnic or revival meeting? Good for you and many blessings on your effort. So why is the religious community in Florida so outraged over a totally legal use of a publicly available venue?

http://florida.newszap.com/belleglade/122791-113/summer-solstice-pagan-festival-has-pahokee-residents-outraged
PAHOKEE—Pahokee residents, church members, and pastors are outraged over an upcoming event at the Lake Okeechobee Resort and Marina. The marina will be hosting its first Lake Okeechobee Summer Solstice Festival – a program that organizers hope will become an annual event.
The event will be held June 19-23.
Pastors from various churches in Pahokee attended Tuesday night’s city commission meeting to express disappointment in city leaders for allowing the event to come to Pahokee. The crowd cheered in agreement as, one-by-one, pastors from around the area admonished city officials for allowing festivals containing witchcraft and occult practices into the city.


http://wildhunt.org/2013/05/the-limits-of-christian-tolerance-florida-edition.html

Now, instead of simply enjoying a nice Summer Solstice celebration, organizers and attendees will have to worry about protestors, about proper security, about harassment from the locals. The irony of course is that if the situation were reversed, the noise about Christian persecution would be deafening. The forces of secularism and Paganism would be excoriated for daring to even entertain limiting the freedoms of Christian fellowship. If Pagans dared to march against a Christian event, the protestors would be mobbed with counter-protestors.
Of course, Pagans wouldn’t march against a Christian gathering, they simply want to practice their faith, and Florida has a thriving Pagan community. It’s home to the Florida Pagan Gathering (http://www.flapagan.org/), and theEverglades Moon Local Council of the Covenant of the Goddess (http://emlc.net/), among other groups and organizations. Heck, The Witches’ Voice (http://www.witchvox.com/) is headquartered in Florida! I hate to break it to these outraged Christian leaders in Pahokee but the Pagan toothpaste is already out of the tube. So maybe these good Christians might want to engage in some of the famous love and tolerance of their savior.

[Thunderknuckles]

Yep.
Those Christians in Florida don't see the big picture. Today it's the Pagans, tomorrow it might be them!

[revelarts]

Yep.
Those Christians in Florida don't see the big picture. Today it's the Pagans, tomorrow it might be them!

while i don't like the idea, and would not want it in my city either. the principal of equal access is the only fair way to do it.

But frankly , if I were a council member i'm not sure i could bring myself to vote for a permit for pagan witchcraft fest. sorry.


from Pilgram's Progress

In this light, therefore, he (Christian) came to the end of the valley. Now I saw in my dream, that at the end of this valley lay blood, bones, ashes, and mangled bodies of men, even of pilgrims that had gone this way formerly; and while I was musing what should be the reason, I espied a little before me a cave, where two giants, POPE and PAGAN, dwelt in old time; by whose power and tyranny the men whose bones, blood, and ashes, lay there, were cruelly put to death. But by this place Christian went without much danger, whereat I somewhat wondered; but I have learnt since, that PAGAN has been dead many a day; and as for the other, though he be yet alive, he is, by reason of age, and also of the many shrewd brushes that he met with in his younger days, grown so crazy and stiff in his joints, that he can now do little more than sit in his cave's mouth, grinning at pilgrims as they go by, and biting his nails because he cannot come at them.


So I saw that Christian went on his way; yet, at the sight of the Old Man that sat in the mouth of the cave, he could not tell what to think, especially because he spake to him, though he could not go after him, saying, "You will never mend till more of you be burned." But he held his peace, and set a good face on it, and so went by and catched no hurt. Then sang Christian...



sadly Old Giant Pagan wasn't as dead as Bunyan dreamed he was.

[aboutime]

I believe everyone, no matter what religious beliefs they may have. Should be permitted to express themselves SAFELY, without harming others. According to the First Amendment.

Even if they choose to do something that may destroy their bodies, brains, or animals as part of their religion.

They should be permitted to freely dispose, and eradicate each other, according to their beliefs.

Just as Everyone cannot be refused the Right to be Stupid, Dumb, or Ignorant.
That's how great our Constitution really is.
And so many who live among us....practice it so perfectly.

[Voted4Reagan]

while i don't like the idea, and would not want it in my city either. the principal of equal access is the only fair way to do it.

But frankly , if I were a council member i'm not sure i could bring myself to vote for a permit for pagan witchcraft fest. sorry.


from Pilgram's Progress


sadly Old Giant Pagan wasn't as dead as Bunyan dreamed he was.


You are a sad, sad, little man indeed Rev...

Maybe we can round up all the witches and you can dunk them to see if they are or arent!

Maybe burn them alive?

How about any other stereotypical depictions I may have missed?

What a JERK you are.... Intolerant Narrow Minded Conspiracy theory believing Moron....

You're pathetic.

[aboutime]

You are a sad, sad, little man indeed Rev...

Maybe we can round up all the witches and you can dunk them to see if they are or arent!

Maybe burn them alive?

How about any other stereotypical depictions I may have missed?

What a JERK you are.... Intolerant Narrow Minded Conspiracy theory believing Moron....

You're pathetic.


V4R. There is an easy way to explain this to rev. Hoping it might get some notice between his ears.

Suppose we replace the word WITCH, and Pagan with the word 'Rev'?

Would that make you feel more secure with your bigotry rev?

[Thunderknuckles]

I think you're being a bit harsh there V4R.
Frankly, I'm a little uncomfortable with the whole witchcraft thing myself but I don't think that makes for a sad, pathetic little man.
We all have groups of people that we are uncomfortable with and tend to avoid them because of it.
Where Rev is wrong is in not approving the permit based on his personal feelings when he should be putting the Constitution ahead of those feelings.

[WiccanLiberal]

What I think a lot of the folks protesting this festival don't see, for whatever reason, is that an effort to curtail the religious expression of others may eventually limit their own. If they allowed themselves to simply observe the results of the event, they might find that pagans make good neighbors. If they continue to raise heck about halting the festival, they may find that the only way to do so is to bar any religiously sponsored event. And 'any' means theirs as well.
I have attended local pagan festivals in my area and, in addition to the revenues coming to the venue itself, other local businesses seem to do quite well. Local artisans who concoct handmade soaps, candles and jewelry are popular vendors at such events and usually welcome the business.

[fj1200]

What I think a lot of the folks protesting this festival don't see, for whatever reason, is that an effort to curtail the religious expression of others may eventually limit their own.

That's the key in almost any case where government has granted favor to what you prefer. Someday you might be on the other side looking in.

[revelarts]

You are a sad, sad, little man indeed Rev...
Maybe we can round up all the witches and you can dunk them to see if they are or aren't!
Maybe burn them alive?
How about any other stereotypical depictions I may have missed?


you've got your faith i've i got mine V4R.
the WWJD just get's me sometime.
do i vote to allow a pagan fest in the city? Let's see? in fairness it's the right thing to do but as a Christian is it something I can in good conscience do?
Invite a pagan religious festival into the city. Grant space for worship of gods Jesus says are false, the old testaments condemns, many Jewish Kings were rebuked for outright, , prophets spoke out against etc etc...

Sorry heck no. how can justify that before God.
"Yes Lord i know you've condemned paganism from Genesis to Revelation but i had to vote so they could worship the sun or whatever. V4R would call me names and people won't understand."
right.
Sorry, there's plenty i don't do right but some stuff is kinda clear and not that hard to do.

Even if people won't get it, will call me names etc etc. OH well. they don't have to get it. I can't vote to subject the city to beliefs that invite demonic spirits, energy beings and worship of the sun, moon, stars, spirits of the earth, wind, fire fairies, or spirit allies.

I'm not going to stop physically them, or jeer at them, call them names, make fun of their beliefs, definitely not physically hurt anyone.
But i could not in good conscience vote to allow it. I may have to step down from being a council member. Because it would be a legally unfair vote. But from my own faith
I can not invite, what i understand to be ultimately spiritual death to to town to be promoted and celebrated.
again sorry. I've got to answer to my God and my conscience. if you don't get that so be it.
I won't even call you names for not understanding where i'm coming from.




What a JERK you are.... Intolerant Narrow Minded Conspiracy theory believing Moron....
You're pathetic.


Can you be narrow minded AND believe in conspiracies?

But intolerant? when did u start using that one? the lefts got you using wrong too.
i've literally worked with people who are Wiccan, Muslin, Buddhist, Mormon, Jews, Atheist, nation of Islam, Pagan African god worshipers, and Sikhs.
I try to treat people all with respect all the time, And frankly i respect the fact that many of them have CHOSEN a faith to adhere too.
(many people seem to just assume ideas from the culture/family/upbringing/school without thinking seriously about it).
But treating people with respect doesn't mean that i want to hand out flyers for their next religious meeting. Or allow them to put my kids in a religious ritual.
I'm sure most of them would say the same.

Respecting people and tolerating their beliefs means, i can love the people but still believe they are DEAD wrong in their beliefs.
An honest atheist can say the same. That's not intolerance.
Agreeing to disagree is not intolerance.

[WiccanLiberal]

I do hear you Rev. I take you at your word that you are not intolerant. I respect any person of faith who lives by the principles of that faith. As i stated above, and as others have remarked, this is also a civil issue. One of our country's founding ideals is freedom of religion. To my mind, protecting your right to worship as you believe ultimately protects mine as well.

[revelarts]

What I think a lot of the folks protesting this festival don't see, for whatever reason, is that an effort to curtail the religious expression of others may eventually limit their own. If they allowed themselves to simply observe the results of the event, they might find that pagans make good neighbors. If they continue to raise heck about halting the festival, they may find that the only way to do so is to bar any religiously sponsored event. And 'any' means theirs as well.
I have attended local pagan festivals in my area and, in addition to the revenues coming to the venue itself, other local businesses seem to do quite well. Local artisans who concoct handmade soaps, candles and jewelry are popular vendors at such events and usually welcome the business.

I see the problem very clearly, voting not to allow it , protesting having, it can DEFINITELY be turned toward Christians or Jews.
many Christians don't see it, that's true.
It is a real conundrum for those of us who do though. frankly i'd assume that it's not a problem anticipated by the founders, most probably assumed/prayed that some form a Christianity would remain dominant to the point of natural exclusion of such an event. that is, not enough adherents to paganism to even make the request worth while.
But here we are.

As far as pagans etc being good neighbors, lol. Ok no ones saying ( i don't think they are anyway) that pagans can't be decent neighbors, shop keepers, work buddies, teachers, friends etc.. etc. that's not the issue.

As far as bringing money into the area, that's probably true as well. everybody likes money. that's not the issue.


The spiritual content of the event is what the issue is. at least from my perspective. I can't speak for the FL residents. ask them.
As a Wiccan I'd assume that you believe that the event has real spiritual significance. That spiritual activity will take place because of the gathering and some of the activities there.
So do most Christians. we agree that there will be spiritual activity. Wiccans and Pagans believe it to be good and for good, Christians believe it's intended by the participants to be good but it's actually calling on evil spirits and false gods and will bring them.

Atheist think were both crazy or deluded.
Some people don't take it seriously one way or the other.
Most probably think if there is good intention then it's good and that's good enough, live and let live.

But WL, i think you'll agree that there is a dark side and a light side to spiritual activities. And that the dark side does masquerade as the light MOST of the time and has fooled some Wiccans and Christians , heck everyone from time to time. But the good intentions of the people didn't make the spiritual connection a good one. The nature and intent of the spirits contacted are the real issue.

[Kathianne]

I see the problem very clearly, voting not to allow it , protesting having, it can DEFINITELY be turned toward Christians or Jews.
many Christians don't see that's true.
It is a real conundrum for those of us who do though. frankly i'd assume that it's not a problem anticipated by the the founders, most probably assumed/prayed that some form a Christianity to remain dominant to the point of natural exclusion of such an event. that is, not enough adherents to paganism to even make the request worth while.
But here we are.

As far as pagans etc being good neighbors, lol. Ok no ones saying ( i don't think they are anyway) that pagans can't be decent neighbors, shop keepers, work buddies, teachers etc.. etc. that's not the issue.

As far as bringing money into the area, that's probably true as well. everybody like money. that's not the issue.


The spiritual content of the event is what the issue. at least from my perspective. I can't speak for the FL residents. ask them.
As a Wiccan I'd assume that you believe that he event has significant spiritual significance. That spiritual activity will take place because of the gathering and some of the activities there.
So do most Christians. we agree that there will be spiritual activity Wicca believe it to be good and for good, Christians believe it's intended by the participants to be be good but it's actually calling on evil spirits and false gods and will bring them.

Athesit think were both crazy or deluded.
Some people don't take it seriously one way or the other.
Most probably think if there is good intention then it's good and that's good enough, live and let live.

But WL, i think you'll agree that there is a dark side and a light side. And the dark side does masquerade as the light MOST of the time and has fooled some Wiccans and Christians. The good intentions of the people didn't make the spiritual connection a good one. The nature and intent of the spirits contacted are the real issue.

On the bolded you and I agree, shocking as we so seldom do on religious matters. Our beliefs intersect on this, I guess no real surprise there.

I think WL would be a terrific neighbor and friend, if she wasn't over 1k miles away. Would I be concerned about her beliefs, only for her. Not that she's doing anything wrong or harmful to others, rather that she may miss some opportunities for her future. Then again, she might feel the same about me.

I'd listen to her, assume that she'd do the same. In the main though, doubt that would be a major topic of discussion. LOL!

[WiccanLiberal]

And Rev, we will have to agree to disagree on the dark and light issue. One is not defined without its opposite. I NEVER invoke so called dark spirits. I consider that foolhardy. But I do connect with the Goddess in her darker aspects, especially the old Irish battle goddess, the Morrigan. Such connections can impart strength when conflicts with others are inevitable. But I also call on Brighid, seen as a smith, a bard and a nurturer, the embodiment of the creative side of life. Both aspects, in my faith, are equally honored. The faiths originating in the Middle east, starting with Judaism, have separated out the dark and light aspects of life and death and applied value judgments to them. But all theological debate aside, Pagans do not seek out new adherents. Most of us don't speak about our faith unless asked, and sometimes not even then. I am a bit more open than most because of where I live. The northeast, and especially its larger metropolitan areas, are a bit more friendly to non-Abrahamic faiths. There are areas I have traveled where I have hidden my jewelry because of the atmosphere of suspicion and fear that exists. I can't recollect ever hearing a single example of a community being harmed by witches but I have heard of many that were horribly damaged by the fear and persecution of people labeled as witches.

[revelarts]

And Rev, we will have to agree to disagree on the dark and light issue. One is not defined without its opposite. I NEVER invoke so called dark spirits. I consider that foolhardy. But I do connect with the Goddess in her darker aspects, especially the old Irish battle goddess, the Morrigan. Such connections can impart strength when conflicts with others are inevitable. But I also call on Brighid, seen as a smith, a bard and a nurturer, the embodiment of the creative side of life. Both aspects, in my faith, are equally honored. The faiths originating in the Middle east, starting with Judaism, have separated out the dark and light aspects of life and death and applied value judgments to them. But all theological debate aside, Pagans do not seek out new adherents. Most of us don't speak about our faith unless asked, and sometimes not even then. I am a bit more open than most because of where I live. The northeast, and especially its larger metropolitan areas, are a bit more friendly to non-Abrahamic faiths. There are areas I have traveled where I have hidden my jewelry because of the atmosphere of suspicion and fear that exists. I can't recollect ever hearing a single example of a community being harmed by witches but I have heard of many that were horribly damaged by the fear and persecution of people labeled as witches.

I don't condone persecution of anyone. it should not happen.
And i guess we will agree to disagree on the light dark issue but we do agree on the reality of the spirit world and somewhat on it's powers and spirit persons.

As far as witches not harming anyone or any area. well my wife is the daughter of a pastor in Africa. Nigeria. the witchcraft there is thought to be nearly ubiquitous and often blamed for bad things. many "curses" and such are put on people. to various effects , zero to major I'm sure. One of my best friends just went on a mission trip to Hatti home building. the witchcraft there is not thought to be benign either. Mainly in the modern west does witchcraft seem to be beginning to have the reputation of being generally harmless. But you yourself mention that there are dark spirits and it's fool hearty to call on them . But you probably could find a one or 2 in your circle that have taken that obvious risk.
As i said, and you probably already know, i believe contacts with ANY spirits, worshiping, calling for assistance of or strength from, anyone other than THE creator of all the universe, the creator of all spirits, is dangerous. And, if you'll allow me to mention, as the apostle Paul said to those pagans in Athens who had many gods.
"..Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance in the past, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”.
Acts 17:29

[Trigg]

What I think a lot of the folks protesting this festival don't see, for whatever reason, is that an effort to curtail the religious expression of others may eventually limit their own. If they allowed themselves to simply observe the results of the event, they might find that pagans make good neighbors. If they continue to raise heck about halting the festival, they may find that the only way to do so is to bar any religiously sponsored event. And 'any' means theirs as well.
I have attended local pagan festivals in my area and, in addition to the revenues coming to the venue itself, other local businesses seem to do quite well. Local artisans who concoct handmade soaps, candles and jewelry are popular vendors at such events and usually welcome the business.

I think many christians today forget that the church adopted the timing of pagan holidays and traditions in order to convert them. It's even said that the Irish cross has it's roots in pagan beliefs.

[Kathianne]

I think many christians today forget that the church adopted the timing of pagan holidays and traditions in order to convert them. It's even said that the Irish cross has it's roots in pagan beliefs.

The Irish have a rich tradition of pagan beliefs. LOL! It's part of what makes them funny and dark, part of which makes them a bit of a quandary for the RC Church, and part of what makes them feel that drink can cure many a problem. Haven't even touched on the Brits yet. ;)

[Gaffer]

What most people know about Wiccans and Pagans is what they see on TV and the movies. The evil, devil worshiping, virgin sacrificing folks. It's all silly bullshit. Give me a Pagan over a muslim any day.

So Rev, could you approve a festival for Buddhists? or Hindus? How about an atheist festival? Pagans are no more threatening then those I listed.

[revelarts]

What most people know about Wiccans and Pagans is what they see on TV and the movies. The evil, devil worshiping, virgin sacrificing folks. It's all silly bullshit. Give me a Pagan over a muslim any day.

So Rev, could you approve a festival for Buddhists? or Hindus? How about an atheist festival? Pagans are no more threatening then those I listed.

Many buddhist are nearly atheist. They don't worship any deities perse. But i would not be comfortable with it.
Hindus Phew, some "Kali fest in the park", i'd vote no.
Atheist fest, what are they celebrating? probably more like a conference. No problem.
Muslims fest, i wouldn't want that either. Frankly I don't think I'd be a good council member on these issues. I do have very strong bias.
I believe in the constitution, but there is a higher law that i'm bound too.
However I guess from a constitutional and freedom POV the city council should NOT be granting permits for people to freely gather at the park AT ALL.
They have no authority to stop it, if they are not breaking the law.
problem solved.
But Again, i don't think the founders foresaw this issue. but maybe they did ...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances...

But sure Pagan's are no more physically threatening than others but on a spiritual level they are actively calling on spirits to themselves and the city.


The Irish have a rich tradition of pagan beliefs. LOL! It's part of what makes them funny and dark, part of which makes them a bit of a quandary for the RC Church, and part of what makes them feel that drink can cure many a problem. Haven't even touched on the Brits yet. ;)

there's plenty of pagan trapings on various parts of Christianity sure.
As far as the Irish go, i always like reading the story of Saint Patrick. He was in Ireland when they were sacrificing children and the like.
Thank God he was there to help point them FROM most of their pagan beliefs to God.

[tailfins]

What I think a lot of the folks protesting this festival don't see, for whatever reason, is that an effort to curtail the religious expression of others may eventually limit their own. If they allowed themselves to simply observe the results of the event, they might find that pagans make good neighbors. If they continue to raise heck about halting the festival, they may find that the only way to do so is to bar any religiously sponsored event. And 'any' means theirs as well.
I have attended local pagan festivals in my area and, in addition to the revenues coming to the venue itself, other local businesses seem to do quite well. Local artisans who concoct handmade soaps, candles and jewelry are popular vendors at such events and usually welcome the business.


The summoning of demons: No thanks! Maybe they can work out a deal where the occultists give enough notice so the townspeople can clear out that weekend.


I do hear you Rev. I take you at your word that you are not intolerant. I respect any person of faith who lives by the principles of that faith. As i stated above, and as others have remarked, this is also a civil issue. One of our country's founding ideals is freedom of religion. To my mind, protecting your right to worship as you believe ultimately protects mine as well.

I don't know what my public policy opinion is of this, but I know I wouldn't want to be within 100 miles of it.


What most people know about Wiccans and Pagans is what they see on TV and the movies. The evil, devil worshiping, virgin sacrificing folks. It's all silly bullshit. Give me a Pagan over a muslim any day.

So Rev, could you approve a festival for Buddhists? or Hindus? How about an atheist festival? Pagans are no more threatening then those I listed.

WRONG! Occultists summon demons!

[Noir]

WRONG! Occultists summon demons!

The question is - do they believe they do, or do you believe they do.

[Gaffer]

The summoning of demons: No thanks! Maybe they can work out a deal where the occultists give enough notice so the townspeople can clear out that weekend.



I don't know what my public policy opinion is of this, but I know I wouldn't want to be within 100 miles of it.



WRONG! Occultists summon demons!

They and you think they summon demons.

[revelarts]

The question is - do they believe they do, or do you believe they do.


They and you think they summon demons.

the question is what is the reality , what is the truth.

some people DON"T believe, does their belief make it NOT true? NOT real.

If i don't believe in tornadoes will that mean I can disregard them. If some folks believe that some tornadoes are GOOD tornadoes does that make it true. will it make them good?
If you don't believe in Demon possession does that mean there is NO such thing? If you believe that the spirits you call are GOOD spirits does that make them so.

If you invite strange people to your house that say they'll give you power, who you really don't know, should you assume they are all good?


For those that are not Christians ok Fine, you don't believe in demons or evil spirits that's your choice. but it does not make it true. Make up what you want to believe based on ..????

for those that are Christians I'm not sure how you can avoid the idea that demons are real and anyone claiming to call on false gods or spirits are in FACT calling on demons. Jesus is clear on this, Moses is clear on this, the apostle Paul is clear on this, The Prophets talk about this all day long.
If you don't believe them i have to ask WHAT authority are you considering that corrects their errors here?

[Missileman]

the question is what is the reality , what is the truth.

some people DON"T believe, does their belief make it NOT true? NOT real.


No more or less than your beliefs represent reality or truth. You advocate discriminating against others based on their beliefs, but time and again, you're one of the first to complain if you feel Christianity is being treated unfairly. Whether you agree with them or not, and whether you agree with me or not, other religions are on the same exact ground, truth-wise, as yours. Up until such time as one, or all, or none of them are proven true, if you want yours accepted, at a minimum, you should be tolerant of theirs.

[revelarts]

No more or less than your beliefs represent reality or truth. You advocate discriminating against others based on their beliefs, but time and again, you're one of the first to complain if you feel Christianity is being treated unfairly. Whether you agree with them or not, and whether you agree with me or not, other religions are on the same exact ground, truth-wise, as yours. Up until such time as one, or all, or none of them are proven true, if you want yours accepted, at a minimum, you should be tolerant of theirs.

you don't know much about religion to make that statement. And you haven't thought through the nature of truth/reality vs faith vs fantasy.
even hostile atheist like Sam Harris acknowledge that different religions have varing basis in fact, some have little to no facts to groud them others have much more.
"the same exact ground" is not a factual statement missile.

and a man rising from the dead after 3 days is a pretty good proof to start.



ANd yes I'll discriminate against honor killing, pedophilia, child marriage, wife beating, female circumcision, human sacrifice and several other things some religions promote.
If that bothers you sorry. i'm not that tolerant.
And BTW tolerance of other faiths in the west was BORN in a Christian context. the idea of tolerance is Christian. but there's a difference between tolerance and promotion which many are QUICK to twist up whenever Christians just want to say Merry Christmas in public.

[tailfins]

No more or less than your beliefs represent reality or truth. You advocate discriminating against others based on their beliefs, but time and again, you're one of the first to complain if you feel Christianity is being treated unfairly. Whether you agree with them or not, and whether you agree with me or not, other religions are on the same exact ground, truth-wise, as yours. Up until such time as one, or all, or none of them are proven true, if you want yours accepted, at a minimum, you should be tolerant of theirs.

My solution of letting them have their event greeted by an empty town wouldn't stop them from having their event.

[gabosaurus]

You are a sad, sad, little man indeed Rev...

Maybe we can round up all the witches and you can dunk them to see if they are or arent!

Maybe burn them alive?

How about any other stereotypical depictions I may have missed?

What a JERK you are.... Intolerant Narrow Minded Conspiracy theory believing Moron....

You're pathetic.

Why is he "pathetic?" You hold the same beliefs about Muslims.

[Noir]

Okay Rev, so you believe in demons, and that humans can summon demons, the next question then is - What do demons do?

[Missileman]

and a man rising from the dead after 3 days is a pretty good proof to start.


A story about a man rising from the dead is no proof at all.

[tailfins]

Okay Rev, so you believe in demons, and that humans can summon demons, the next question then is - What do demons do?

I'll take this one:
Sow discord
Make things go wrong: Things like a mysterious brake hose failure
They are a source of sickness both physical and mental
They incite every sin and criminal act imaginable (after all, they work for Lucifer)

[Missileman]

ANd yes I'll discriminate against honor killing, pedophilia, child marriage, wife beating, female circumcision, human sacrifice and several other things some religions promote.

Those are mundane considerations and lend nothing to the veracity of the religion itself.

[tailfins]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by revelarts http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=642671#post642671)

ANd yes I'll discriminate against honor killing, pedophilia, child marriage, wife beating, female circumcision, human sacrifice and several other things some religions promote.





Those are mundane considerations and lend nothing to the veracity of the religion itself.

One can follow "the letter of the law" regarding non-discrimination while still letting an undesirable group know they are not welcome. I'm referring to Occultism, not Islam. Muslims are no more wrong than Buddhists.

[Noir]

I'll take this one:
Sow discord
Make things go wrong: Things like a mysterious brake hose failure
They are a source of sickness both physical and mental
They incite every sin and criminal act imaginable (after all, they work for Lucifer)

Lolololllololol
This is beyond hilarious, this is literally medieval thinking, before we had access to knowledge like germ theory etc.
Lemme guess, demons are also responsible for no one laughing at that joke you told? or why your hair just won't sit right today? etc etc.

[revelarts]

A story about a man rising from the dead is no proof at all.

A story about a man named Cesar was head of Rome is no proof at all.
A story about transitional forms when there no fossil evidence for them is no proof at all.
A story about a men flying to the moon is no proof at all.
A story about George Washington being a president of a country is no proof at all.

the veracity of a story about anything are based in part on it's various corroborating information. Many have taken the time to look at the resurrection and cannot find a plausible alternative for explaining for the story . Others don't try to explain it, they really just assume that it is, as a matter of course, impossible therefore untrue.
Seems folks should at least take a minute to check the history from every angle before they dismiss it.

[Missileman]

A story about a man named Cesar was head of Rome is no proof at all.
A story about transitional forms when there no fossil evidence for them is no proof at all.
A story about a men flying to the moon is no proof at all.
A story about George Washington being a president of a country is no proof at all.

the veracity of a story about anything are based in part on it's various corroborating information. Many have taken the time to look at the resurrection and cannot find a plausible alternative for explaining for the story . Others don't try to explain it, they really just assume that it is, as a matter of course, impossible therefore untrue.
Seems folks should at least take a minute to check the history from every angle before they dismiss it.

Steven King's book "Salem's Lot" takes place in a real New England town. Do you consider that proof that vampires really exist?

Do you believe a minotaur existed because there is an island of Crete?

Do you believe that Greek mythology is proof that Apollo used to drag the sun across the sky with his chariot?

[revelarts]

Steven King's book "Salem's Lot" takes place in a real New England town. Do you consider that proof that vampires really exist?

Do you believe a minotaur existed because there is an island of Crete?

Do you believe that Greek mythology is proof that Apollo used to drag the sun across the sky with his chariot?

There are paintings of George Washington riding a dinosaur.
does that mean that he didn't exist, does it mean that dinosaurs didn't exist?
separating fact from fiction is the question Missile, each case has it's own corroborating info or not. that's my point. frankly i don't that you exist.

[Missileman]

There are paintings of George Washington riding a dinosaur.
does that mean that he didn't exist, does it mean that dinosaurs didn't exist?
separating fact from fiction is the question Missile, each case has it's own corroborating info or not. that's my point. frankly i don't that you exist.

The painting of George Washington riding a dinosaur is not proof that he's 60 million-years-old. It's not proof that he was an alien. It's not proof of anything.

Your standard of proof for that which you believe is laughable.

[revelarts]

The painting of George Washington riding a dinosaur is not proof that he's 60 million-years-old. It's not proof that he was an alien. It's not proof of anything.

Your standard of proof for that which you believe is laughable.

only if you haven't taken the time to examine it.

[Missileman]

only if you haven't taken the time to examine it.

You assume too much. In fact, that explains how you arrive at ALL of your conclusions.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Steven King's book "Salem's Lot" takes place in a real New England town. Do you consider that proof that vampires really exist?

Do you believe a minotaur existed because there is an island of Crete?

Do you believe that Greek mythology is proof that Apollo used to drag the sun across the sky with his chariot?

Actually the God Tyr sent his winged guard dog(that shall not be named) to spin the planet to give man night and day..;)


And I know demons do exist, I was married to one once.. True..--Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

i've literally worked with people who are Wiccan, Muslin, Buddhist, Mormon, Jews, Atheist, nation of Islam, Pagan African god worshipers, and Sikhs.
I try to treat people all with respect all the time, And frankly i respect the fact that many of them have CHOSEN a faith to adhere too.
(many people seem to just assume ideas from the culture/family/upbringing/school without thinking seriously about it).
But treating people with respect doesn't mean that i want to hand out flyers for their next religious meeting. Or allow them to put my kids in a religious ritual.
I'm sure most of them would say the same.

Respecting people and tolerating their beliefs means, i can love the people but still believe they are DEAD wrong in their beliefs.
An honest atheist can say the same. That's not intolerance.
Agreeing to disagree is not intolerance.

it's one things to allow people their beliefs and be silent and let them go about their business....

To speak out against another religion with the intolerance you have shown shows you do not believe in freedom of religion other then your own!

For the Record... do you celebrate Easter? Christmas?

Just curious.....

[Voted4Reagan]

for all you self proclaimed Christians out there that celebrate Christmas and preach against Paganism...


http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm


It is beyond doubt that Christmas was originally a pagan festival. The time of the year and the ceremonies with which it is still celebrated, prove its origin.

Isis, the Egyptian title for the "queen of heaven," gave birth to a son at this very time, about the time of the winter solstice. The term "Yule" is the Chaldee (Babylonian) name for "infant" or "little child."

This pagan festival not only commemorated the figurative birthday of the sun in the renewal of its course, but it also was celebrated (on December 24) among the Sabeans of Arabia, as the birthday of the "Lord Moon."

In Babylon, where the sun (Baal) was the object of worship, Tammuz was considered the incarnation of the Sun.




"In the Hindu mythology, which is admitted to be essentially Babylonian, this comes out very distinctly. There, Surya, or the Sun, is represented as being incarnate, and born for the purpose of subduing the enemies of the gods, who without such a birth, could not have been subdued." Ibid pg 96


There are many other Christmas counterparts of the Babylonian winter solstice festival, such as: 1) candles lighted on Christmas eve and used throughout the festival season were equally lighted by the Pagans on the eve of the festival of the Babylonian god, to do honor to him, 2) the Christmas tree was equally common in Pagan Rome and Pagan Egypt. In Egypt that tree was the palm tree; in Rome it was the fir. The tree denoted the Pagan Messiah.




"The mother of Adonis, the Sun God and great mediatorial divinity, was mystically said to have been changed into a tree, and when in that state to have brought forth her divine son. If the mother was a tree, the son must have been recognized as the ŒMan of the branch." Ibid pg 97


The Yule log was considered the dead stock of Nimrod (or Tammuz, depending on the specific nation involved), deified as the sun god, but cut down by his enemies; the Christmas tree is Nimrod revived - the slain god come to life again.

The Yule occultic colors are red and green.

The mistletoe branch symbolized "the man, the branch" and was regarded as a divine branch - a corrupt Babylonian representation of the true Messiah. Both mistletoe and holly were considered fertility plants by the pagans.

[revelarts]

it's one things to allow people their beliefs and be silent and let them go about their business....

To speak out against another religion with the intolerance you have shown shows you do not believe in freedom of religion other then your own!

For the Record... do you celebrate Easter? Christmas?

Just curious.....

Shortly after i became a christian, before i married and had children, i did not "celebrate" Christmas or Easter, to the frustration and confusion of some in my family. Now, i don't participate in some aspects. No tree at Christmas, no eggs or bunnies on Easter. I know of several Christian homes that are even more extreme. I'm pretty aware of the pagan aspects of the holidays, days of the week , symbols and various other practices various churches have embraced. Funny thing is you won't find most it --any of it-- in the Bible or the practices to the church described in the new testament. It all came in as compromise or accommodation later.


OK sooo, Paul and Jesus "spoke out" against other religions, do you think they were intolerant as well?
Just curious?


And isn't freedom of speech part of the constitution? Or is there a no critiquing other religions unless your an atheist clause?

[Voted4Reagan]

OK sooo, Paul and Jesus "spoke out" against other religions, do you think they were intolerant as well?
Just curious?


And isn't freedom of speech part of the constitution? Or is there a no critiquing other religions unless your an atheist clause?

yet you sit there playing holier then thou while proclaiming that you would avidly work against a group that would practice their religious beliefs simply because you didnt agree with it.

Yes...Freedom of Speech is permitted, religious persecution is not. To interfere with someones ability to freely express their beliefs is a violation. You have expressed your 1st Amendment Rights and lessened and demeaned them by falling victim to intolerance and Hate.

Dont preach the constitution to me when you only follow those parts of it that you agree with.

And the Equivilancy argument comparing yourself to St. Paul and Jesus.... That has to be the most self aggrandizing, egotistical display of Narcissism that I have ever seen.

What a weak argument you make indeed... I should block you just like I did Bobby Boy.... you're both cut from the same mold.

For the Record...I am Catholic, Irish Catholic... Paganism is a part of my Culture..

May you hear the cries of the Bean Si' until you change your ways...

http://www.tangled-dreams.com/bansheesmall.jpg

[tailfins]

for all you self proclaimed Christians out there that celebrate Christmas and preach against Paganism...


http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm


It is beyond doubt that Christmas was originally a pagan festival. The time of the year and the ceremonies with which it is still celebrated, prove its origin.

Isis, the Egyptian title for the "queen of heaven," gave birth to a son at this very time, about the time of the winter solstice. The term "Yule" is the Chaldee (Babylonian) name for "infant" or "little child."

This pagan festival not only commemorated the figurative birthday of the sun in the renewal of its course, but it also was celebrated (on December 24) among the Sabeans of Arabia, as the birthday of the "Lord Moon."

In Babylon, where the sun (Baal) was the object of worship, Tammuz was considered the incarnation of the Sun.




"In the Hindu mythology, which is admitted to be essentially Babylonian, this comes out very distinctly. There, Surya, or the Sun, is represented as being incarnate, and born for the purpose of subduing the enemies of the gods, who without such a birth, could not have been subdued." Ibid pg 96



There are many other Christmas counterparts of the Babylonian winter solstice festival, such as: 1) candles lighted on Christmas eve and used throughout the festival season were equally lighted by the Pagans on the eve of the festival of the Babylonian god, to do honor to him, 2) the Christmas tree was equally common in Pagan Rome and Pagan Egypt. In Egypt that tree was the palm tree; in Rome it was the fir. The tree denoted the Pagan Messiah.




"The mother of Adonis, the Sun God and great mediatorial divinity, was mystically said to have been changed into a tree, and when in that state to have brought forth her divine son. If the mother was a tree, the son must have been recognized as the ŒMan of the branch." Ibid pg 97



The Yule log was considered the dead stock of Nimrod (or Tammuz, depending on the specific nation involved), deified as the sun god, but cut down by his enemies; the Christmas tree is Nimrod revived - the slain god come to life again.

The Yule occultic colors are red and green.

The mistletoe branch symbolized "the man, the branch" and was regarded as a divine branch - a corrupt Babylonian representation of the true Messiah. Both mistletoe and holly were considered fertility plants by the pagans.

You have nicely chronicled the Catholic corruption of Christianity. Catholic ain't Christian!

[jimnyc]

May you hear the cries of the Bean Si' until you change your ways...

Did a quick search and could only find the following. Is this the same thing? This is why I 'mostly' live and let live when it comes to religions, Jim doesn't want any spirits following him around! I have 10000% faith in my beliefs, but that's not to say that other faiths can't be true/real either. But at the very least, I think we can all learn to respect one another's beliefs. I have NO problem with any other religion or belief, so long as no one is harmed and no one is pushing it on others. :) With that said, sounds like you're fucked, Rev!! :lol:


In Irish folklore, the Bean Sidhe (woman of the hills) is a spirit or fairy who presage a death by wailing. She is popularly known as the Banshee. She visits a household and by wailing she warns them that a member of their family is about to die. When a Banshee is caught, she is obliged to tell the name of the doomed.

The antiquity of this concept is vouched for by the fact that the Morrigan, in a poem from the 8th century, is described as washing spoils and entrails. It was believed in County Clare that Richard the Clare, the Norman leader of the 12th century, had met a horrible beldame, washing armor and rich robes "until the red gore churned in her hands", who warned him of the destruction of his host.

The Bean Sidhe has long streaming hair and is dressed in a gray cloak over a green dress. Her eyes are fiery red from the constant weeping. When multiple Banshees wail together, it will herald the death of someone very great or holy. The Scottish version of the Banshee is the Bean Nighe.

Aiobhill is the banshee of the Dalcassians of North Munster, and Cliodna is the banshee of the MacCarthys and other families of South Munster

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/bean_sidhe.html

[BillyBob]

The question is - do they believe they do, or do you believe they do.


It only matters what the demons believe.

[Voted4Reagan]

You have nicely chronicled the Catholic corruption of Christianity. Catholic ain't Christian!

Catholicism is a branch of Christianity...

You Lose..

[BillyBob]

Catholicism is a branch of Christianity...

You Lose..

Catholicism is it's own religion with some things borrowed from Christianity with a whole lot of other things of its own invention thrown in.

[Kathianne]

Catholicism is it's own religion with some things borrowed from Christianity with a whole lot of other things of its own invention thrown in.

LOL! If any sects borrowed, it wasn't the Catholics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity


The history of Christianity concerns the Christian religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity), its followers and the Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church) with its various denominations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denomination), from the first century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_1st_century) to the present (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_21st_century).


Christianity emerged in the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) (now Palestine and Israel) in the mid-1st century CE. Christianity spread (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_centers_of_Christianity) initially from Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_in_Christianity) throughout the Near East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East), into places such as Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria), Assyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria), Mesopotamia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia), Phoenicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia), Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor), Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan) and Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt). In the 4th century it was successively adopted as the state religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion) by Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsacid_Dynasty_of_Armenia) in 301, Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia) in 319,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#cite_note-2) the Aksumite Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksumite_Empire) in 325,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#cite_note-4) and the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_church_of_the_Roman_Empire) in 380. It became common to all of Europe in the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) and expanded throughout the world during Europe's Age of Exploration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Exploration) from the Renaissance onwards to become the world's largest religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#cite_note-5) Today there are 2 billion Christians, one third of humanity.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity#cite_note-6) Christianity divided into the Roman Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church) and Eastern Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church) in the Great Schism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism) of 1054. The Protestant Reformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation) split the Catholic Church into many different denominations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_denominations).

...




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_reformation


The Protestant Reformation was the 16th-century schism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_%28religion%29) within Western Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Christianity) initiated by Martin Luther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther), John Calvin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin) and other early Protestants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestants). It was sparked by the 1517 posting of Luther's Ninety-Five Theses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-Five_Theses). The efforts of the self-described "reformers", who objected to ("protested") the doctrines, rituals, leadership and ecclesiastical structure of the Roman Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church), led to the creation of new national Protestant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism) churches. The Reformation was precipitated by earlier events within Europe, such as the Black Death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death) and the Western Schism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Schism), which eroded people's faith in the Catholic Church and the Papacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papacy) that governed it. This, as well as many other factors, such as spread of Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance) ideas and inventions, such as the invention of the printing press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press), and the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Roman_Empire), contributed to the creation of Protestantism.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_reformation#cite_note-FOOTNOTECameron2012-1)[page needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)][2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_reformation#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEstep1986-2)[page needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]



The Roman Catholic Church responded with a Counter-Reformation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Reformation) initiated by the Council of Trent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Trent) and spearheaded by the new order of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus) specifically organized to counter the Protestant movement. In general, Northern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe), with the exception of most of Ireland, turned Protestant. Southern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Europe) remained Roman Catholic, while fierce battles which turned into warfare took place in central Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_reformation#cite_note-FOOTNOTECameron2012-1)

[logroller]

LOL! If any sects borrowed, it wasn't the Catholics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_reformation

In many ways, Christianity just borrowed some ideas from Judaism with a lot of Christian stuff thrown in. Early Christians practiced alongside Jews and it was the first council of bishops, (the precursor to the Catholic Church) that would unify Christian beliefs and do more to spread Christianity than any other denomination since founded. The uncomfortable truth is unity often involves compromising purity. If someone finds a perfect church they best not join, for it would cease to be perfect.

[Voted4Reagan]

Protestants, Anglicans, Prebsbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists all came onto the scene more then 1000 years after the Catholics.

T/Y Kathianne for pointing that out to those less informed who think theirs is the only true belief...

Rev/Tailfins/BillyBob should really study their history more...

After all... The first Pope of the Church was a friend and disciple of Jesus himself... He said to Saint Peter

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha] I will build my church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) [ekklesian], and the gates of hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm). And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm): and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm)". Then he commanded his disciples (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05029a.htm), that they should tell no one that he was Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) the Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10212c.htm) (Matthew 16:13-20 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mat016.htm#vrs13); Mark 8:27-30 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mar008.htm#vrs27); Luke 9:18-21 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk009.htm#vrs18)).


Also....the Primacy of Peter is confirmed thus...

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm). As to the duration of his Apostolic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) activity in the Roman capital (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm), the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03738a.htm) of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm): this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm) to the Apostolic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) Primacy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12423a.htm) of Peter.


So there you have it.... from 32 AD to 67AD... 1000 years before the Schism of 1054 and 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation

Catholicism came First.... it is the oldest branch of Christianity...

Remember...us Irish all have priests in the Family....My Godfather was a Monsignor and has met 2 Popes...

I learned this when I was a kid... Basic History

[aboutime]

Would someone. Anyone here. Please explain to me what point has been made, or what has been accomplished with any of the discussions here?

Does any member who has posted have any Power over anyone else to convince anyone else ONLY THEIR OPINION is correct when it comes to discussing Which aspect of any religious belief came first, or was created due to another religion?

Unless one of you happens to live in the VATICAN, and you wear a White Robe, with a White mitre on your head.

The arguments here are useless, and seemingly. Only another topic for people to endlessly argue over.

[revelarts]

yet you sit there playing holier then thou while proclaiming that you would avidly work against a group that would practice their religious beliefs simply because you didnt agree with it..

quote me where i said "you would avidly work against a group that would practice their religious beliefs simply because you didnt agree with it."
quote back to EXACTLY what i said. and you might, if you'd calm down and think clearly, realize i never came near that.



Yes...Freedom of Speech is permitted, religious persecution is not. To interfere with someones ability to freely express their beliefs is a violation. You have expressed your 1st Amendment Rights and lessened and demeaned them by falling victim to intolerance and Hate.
religious persecution? have i persecuted you, or wiccan liberal here V4R?
Missle has called my beliefs false several times but somehow he's not being offensive/intolerant in your book? I make comments in the same vain critiquing others faiths in, I hope , a MUCH more conversational way but i'm a religious persecutor. riiight.
For he record --again-- i don't have a problem with missile or Noir or Wiccan discussing their POV's. I don't take it persecution when they laugh or call it nonsense or just disagree. it's their opinion and they have a right to express it just as i do.
sorry if MY positions bugs you so much. maybe you ought to examine your response to the content rather than masking your distaste for my views as a problem with my so-called intolerance.




Dont preach the constitution to me when you only follow those parts of it that you agree with.
go back and read what i said, all of it, where did i end up V4R?
as far as preaching the parts of the Constitution i like .. lol, how about we compare how much of it i like compared to most of the republican party V4R, and then let see who has a "right" to preach it. if they stop , i'll think about.



OK sooo, Paul and Jesus "spoke out" against other religions, do you think they were intolerant as well?
Just curious?
And the Equivalency argument comparing yourself to St. Paul and Jesus.... That has to be the most self aggrandizing, egotistical display of Narcissism that I have ever seen. What a weak argument you make indeed... I should block you just like I did Bobby Boy.... you're both cut from the same mold. shhesh a dodge with double insult
Why won't just answer the factual question? Just curious?




For the Record...I am Catholic, Irish Catholic... Paganism is a part of my Culture..
May you hear the cries of the Bean Si' until you change your ways...

So you want me to change my ways, you intolerant self aggrandizing, egotistical blah blah blah.
how dare you ask me to change my FAITH??!!!!. WHO to you think you are??!!! calling on Pagan deities to torment me to address what you in your narrow judgmental Irish Catholic Beab Si' ways think is the "proper" view of "tolerance". A view that basically wants others to STHU, unless your an atheist i guess.
May God forgive you and the grace of Jesus Christ shine light in the darkness and banish all death aligned lying spirits of the old irish pagans and cast them into outer darkness bound and gaged.


OK V4R
Obviously i've pissed you off at some point. Probably some above as well.
But your view of intolerance is NOT mine. people are free to believe what they want. Free to practice what they want. withen the law. And I have a right to ask questions, respectfully as to WHY they believe it. it's not an offense to ask WHY you believe in Beab Si'. or at least it shouldn't be. It may FEEL bad to have someone say that: from My POV and the the reading of the Scriptures that Bean Si' is a demon. and you should reject it.'
YOU don't have to believe it. I'm not going to try to kill you, jail you, ask you to move, paint on your church, or cross the street when i see you coming. But the question still stands V4R. It's really not and ATTACK on you personally it's a question concerning the facts of what you think and believe.

Noir, Wiccan L. and others ask valid questions and make their points
But more than a few people here have posted information on Islam and attacked it's origin, it's writings, it prophets, it's teachers and it's practices.
I don't see you puffed up ranting about intolerance people in those threads. or is Islam different v4R?
People can use the freedom of speech to question crazy ol Islam but we can't EVAH discuss details or question info about Wiccas, Mormons or Irish Catholicism?

IMO As long as the questions are theological and based on examining the truth claims, the text, and evidence available, the practices and the like, then the conversation may be somewhat confrontational but at base it is academic in nature NOT intolerant. it's called interfaith dialogue.
If you take it personally, thinking it's only ever an attack , I apologize, it's not meant as such, but it is mean to be a SERIOUS AND HONEST discussion of DETAILS and BASIS for various religious positions. What people believe and why.

It's fine to say everyone can have their own beliefs , i agree, but as you KNOW Islam is a dangerous religion and more violent than Buddhism or the Amish and others. all religions are NOT the same, and what they are based on is not the same. the more you understand the details of various faiths you can see the strong and the weak points of each.
Most people claim they really want to know the truth, but you can't know jack if you can't even bare to have discussed it critically V4R.


If you don't like the facts/points i bring up, refute the facts don't try to shut me down by BS insults and bogus appeals to tolerance.

[BillyBob]

Protestants, Anglicans, Prebsbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists all came onto the scene more then 1000 years after the Catholics.

T/Y Kathianne for pointing that out to those less informed who think theirs is the only true belief...

Rev/Tailfins/BillyBob should really study their history more...

After all... The first Pope of the Church was a friend and disciple of Jesus himself... He said to Saint Peter

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha] I will build my church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) [ekklesian], and the gates of hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm). And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm): and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm)". Then he commanded his disciples (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05029a.htm), that they should tell no one that he was Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) the Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10212c.htm) (Matthew 16:13-20 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mat016.htm#vrs13); Mark 8:27-30 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mar008.htm#vrs27); Luke 9:18-21 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk009.htm#vrs18)).


Also....the Primacy of Peter is confirmed thus...

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm). As to the duration of his Apostolic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) activity in the Roman capital (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm), the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03738a.htm) of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm): this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm) to the Apostolic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) Primacy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12423a.htm) of Peter.


So there you have it.... from 32 AD to 67AD... 1000 years before the Schism of 1054 and 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation

Catholicism came First.... it is the oldest branch of Christianity...

Remember...us Irish all have priests in the Family....My Godfather was a Monsignor and has met 2 Popes...

I learned this when I was a kid... Basic History

Catholicism isn't the original Christian sect. I learned that by reading the Bible.

[jimnyc]

LOL! If any sects borrowed, it wasn't the Catholics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_reformation

I grew up Catholic and I suppose I still am. I've always been confused about the main differences of Christianity and Catholicism. I have a page bookmarked from awhile back, but I don't know if the writer is "biased" or not knowledgeable. If this is true, sounds like I would prefer to be Christian, while at the same time having a lot of loyalty and respect for the Catholic Church, as that's what I grew up with. I have reading to do now!


I’m often asked a question:

What is the difference between catholic and Christian?

I understand why there would be confusion. On the surface, the question may sound odd or even silly. Many folks will respond: there is no difference between catholic and Christian. Catholics believe in Christ, that makes them Christians.

Well, unfortunately, that answer isn’t necessarily accurate. First, simply “believing” in Christ isn’t sufficient to make on a Christian. It goes a lot deeper than that. If you wish, you can read a post of mine on the subject, called Believing in Christ Doesn’t Make You a Christian.

No, belief is not enough. So what else is there? What more must one do to actually become a Christian? The key word is:

Trust.

You must TRUST in Christ. And not only trust in Christ, but you must trust in Christ ALONE for your Eternal Salvation. You must trust that His sacrifice on the cross at Calvary paid your sin debt in full — which it did — and trusting in that payment means releasing your own need to have to “pay” for something that Christ Himself has already paid. His death released you from your debt.

It isn’t about “accepting” Christ or “believing” in Christ or “asking Christ into your heart”. It is only about trust and placing your trust FULLY in Him, your Savior. So what is the distinction between belief and trust? My brother likes to describe it this way:

“You believe in the chair that you are sitting on. You trust that the chair will carry your weight and support you”.

It wasn’t until I actually TRUSTED in Christ Alone that I received the Gift of Eternal Life. If you haven’t yet read my story, please take a few minutes to do so. That moment was a life-changing event, for both my earthly life and my eternal life.

So then what is the difference between catholic and Christian?

Most catholics have placed their trust in things other than Christ for their Salvation. This isn’t necessarily their fault directly, they’ve been raised that way. I know, I was raised that way myself and I was totally and completely sincere about my belief in Christ and that He died for my sins. But, like most other catholics, I also believed that I had to trust in the church of Rome for assistance in achieving Eternal Salvation. I had to trust in the leaders of the church to provide me with proper doctrine, in the priest in the confessional to ensure that I received absolution for my sins, in the wafer of bread that was supposedly transformed into the Body of Christ (something I now know is preposterous and not supported by Scriptures), and trust in the church of Rome’s claim to apostolic succession (read my post: Dispelling the Myth of the “Rock” Peter) to provide the authority to dictate to me what I must believe.

Rest here: http://www.catholic2christian.com/what-is-the-difference-between-catholic-and-christian.html

[BillyBob]

I learned this when I was a kid...


Kids are easily misled.....which is why they taught it to you then.

[fj1200]

I learned this when I was a kid... Basic History

There's a difference between lineage and true. The Ravens carry the lineage of the original Browns but try to argue that in Cleveland. :hide:

[BillyBob]

There's a difference between lineage and true. The Ravens carry the lineage of the original Browns but try to argue that in Cleveland. :hide:

Browns fans hate the Ravens and they hate Art Model even more. They didn't even hold a memorial for him when he died last year. And don't even mention the Steelers.....

Oh, and the idea that Peter was a Catholic Pope is preposterous.

[logroller]

Catholicism isn't the original Christian sect. I learned that by reading the Bible.
Note: the Bible you read isn't the original Text and was likely written post Reformation in an appeal to the demagoguery of the time.

[BillyBob]

Note: the Bible you read isn't the original Text and was likely written post Reformation in an appeal to the demagoguery of the time.


Do you have a copy of an early Bible that confirms Peter was a Pope, christians are supposed to pray top Mary, only a priest can absolve you of your sins and only if you confess etc?

Btw, there are NT scriptures that date back to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries. So it's not like the NT was rewritten in the 15th century without scriptures to compare it to. The Catholic church was invented by the Romans as a means of power and control around the 3rd century.

[jimnyc]

Browns fans hate the Ravens and they hate Art Model even more. They didn't even hold a memorial for him when he died last year. And don't even mention the Steelers.....

Oh, and the idea that Peter was a Catholic Pope is preposterous.

** off topic **

The Ravens have had a few formidable teams, after the Steelers beat up on the Browns for like 122 years! :) Even those dummies just leveraged the next 10 years on Flacco and won't be able to afford a water bottle for the poor bastard now.

[revelarts]

people like to point out the differences in Catholics and other denominations.

Jim your post could be applied to many people in protestant churches as well.
there are plenty of church goers who haven't "trusted" in Christ.

Historically and i guess organizationally the Catholic Church is the 2nd tier root of the all the modern churches. the 1st root and true ground is the Church of the New testament and the book of Acts. What many modern Catholics and some protestants call the "primitive church" .

That church BEFORE bishops, Popes and statues. That's the basis for the Church. But following that the Roman Catholic Church was the home of THE CHURCH and THE FAITH for years. Most, but NOT all, Christians were a part of it, and under it. It did However pick up a LOT of pagan driftwood and attach it to itself. Many WITHIN the roman catholic Church were against such things. Such as the priest John Wycliffe who taught other RC priest at Oxford the ways of the "primitive" church and trust in the scripture sans much of the extra church dogmas and cultural superstitions. He was tolerated but questioned during his life time but was able to politically dodge heavy RC sanctions and died quietly.
However, posthumously the RC officials dug up his bones and burn them and had his books declared heresy. one of the things he questioned -as an RC priest no less -was the doctrine of transubstantiation. He said it's not in the Bible.

AND frankly the reformation came mainly from the Priest of the RC church. However there were also Christian tracks outside of the RC Church like the Christians of Egypt and the Eastern Orthodox, each in it's on ways added items to the primitive faith laid out by the apostles in the Bible.

Wheather or not you want to accpet the additions as PART of what Christianity is a personal choice. But it cannot be said honestly that the all of the current or medieval RC teachings are directly from Jesus and the Apostles. It comes in later. that's not to say that it's all bad. But IMO I'd rather stay as close to the root as possible. if the branches say one thing and the root says another I'll stick with the root.
OTHER MAY HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS. I personally don't see why or what would compel Christians to add things to Christian belief and practice that Peter, Paul and Jesus did not promote.
THAT'S MY TAKE, with my reasons, and some History to back it up.

[Kathianne]

Protestants, Anglicans, Prebsbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists all came onto the scene more then 1000 years after the Catholics.

T/Y Kathianne for pointing that out to those less informed who think theirs is the only true belief...

Rev/Tailfins/BillyBob should really study their history more...

After all... The first Pope of the Church was a friend and disciple of Jesus himself... He said to Saint Peter

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha] I will build my church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) [ekklesian], and the gates of hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm). And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm): and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm)". Then he commanded his disciples (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05029a.htm), that they should tell no one that he was Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) the Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10212c.htm) (Matthew 16:13-20 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mat016.htm#vrs13); Mark 8:27-30 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mar008.htm#vrs27); Luke 9:18-21 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk009.htm#vrs18)).


Also....the Primacy of Peter is confirmed thus...

It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09736b.htm). As to the duration of his Apostolic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) activity in the Roman capital (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm), the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03738a.htm) of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm): this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm) to the Apostolic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm) Primacy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12423a.htm) of Peter.


So there you have it.... from 32 AD to 67AD... 1000 years before the Schism of 1054 and 1500 years before the Protestant Reformation

Catholicism came First.... it is the oldest branch of Christianity...

Remember...us Irish all have priests in the Family....My Godfather was a Monsignor and has met 2 Popes...

I learned this when I was a kid... Basic History

Yep, all Irish here. My uncle was a priest, 2 doctorates: theology and European Medieval History. He was the head of Education for the diocese I currently live in, besides being a parish pastor. He set up the system for schools to set up their own contribution plans, that have worked well for those schools that meet the needs of their students. (He got major help from the CFO of 7-Up bottling co, a parishioner. He did not have any degree in finance. ;) ) Some are able to fully fund up to 100 students through k-8; 50 through 9-12. With over 150 k-8 schools and 10 HS, that's a lot. Considering that most k-8 schools have around 200 students, in some nearly 1/2 are free. In the HS most have less than 400, meaning over 20% are getting free. Many more get 'some' help.

[BillyBob]

** off topic **

The Ravens have had a few formidable teams, after the Steelers beat up on the Browns for like 122 years! :) Even those dummies just leveraged the next 10 years on Flacco and won't be able to afford a water bottle for the poor bastard now.

The Ravens won the Super Bowl the year after they left Cleveland. That team was the Browns in purple jerseys.

[BillyBob]

I personally don't see why or what would compel Christians to add things to Christian belief and practice that Peter, Paul and Jesus did not promote.
THAT'S MY TAKE, with my reasons, and some History to back it up.

For control and manipulation and power. That sums up the Catholic church and the Romans who invented it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

yet you sit there playing holier then thou while proclaiming that you would avidly work against a group that would practice their religious beliefs simply because you didnt agree with it.

Yes...Freedom of Speech is permitted, religious persecution is not. To interfere with someones ability to freely express their beliefs is a violation. You have expressed your 1st Amendment Rights and lessened and demeaned them by falling victim to intolerance and Hate.

Dont preach the constitution to me when you only follow those parts of it that you agree with.

And the Equivilancy argument comparing yourself to St. Paul and Jesus.... That has to be the most self aggrandizing, egotistical display of Narcissism that I have ever seen.

What a weak argument you make indeed... I should block you just like I did Bobby Boy.... you're both cut from the same mold.

For the Record...I am Catholic, Irish Catholic... Paganism is a part of my Culture..

May you hear the cries of the Bean Si' until you change your ways...

http://www.tangled-dreams.com/bansheesmall.jpg


As a young child of 6 years old I worshipped the IceCream God. He drove around our neighborhood in a nice new blue and white vehicle that played heavenly music. We could hear it coming blocks away on a hot July day and knew salvation was just moments away..
O' how I long for such blissful days again! --:laugh:

And curse the second ex-wife that tormented me so only 13 years later..

Let other believe as they wish. Even muslims but when they start trying to force their religion on others by murdering them --kill those filthy bastards as quick as you can and let the ONE true God sort 'em out...
So let it be written , so let it be done...-Tyr

[aboutime]

One thing has become very obvious with this, and several other threads.

One doesn't need to look too hard to find so many totally uninformed, bigoted, hate-filled people who think they

are justified in Judging others, based on their religious beliefs.

This thread has become one of those places.

Those who hate so much, and show it almost everywhere they go on this forum. Should just step forward

and admit. THEY HATE EVERYONE who isn't THEM.

[BillyBob]

One thing has become very obvious with this, and several other threads.

One doesn't need to look too hard to find so many totally uninformed, bigoted, hate-filled people who think they

are justified in Judging others, based on their religious beliefs.

This thread has become one of those places.

Those who hate so much, and show it almost everywhere they go on this forum. Should just step forward

and admit. THEY HATE EVERYONE who isn't THEM.


I must have missed those posts.

[aboutime]

I must have missed those posts.


No you didn't. Thanks for stepping forward.

[Kathianne]

One thing has become very obvious with this, and several other threads.

One doesn't need to look too hard to find so many totally uninformed, bigoted, hate-filled people who think they

are justified in Judging others, based on their religious beliefs.

This thread has become one of those places.

Those who hate so much, and show it almost everywhere they go on this forum. Should just step forward

and admit. THEY HATE EVERYONE who isn't THEM.

I am far from a grammar police type of person, not even interested in being spelling police. However, it is annoying when sentences are missing a subject and/or predicate. Paragraphs are supposed to have topic or theme.

Please, take the time to get your thoughts in order.

[fj1200]

Please, take the time to get your thoughts in order.

I think he did.

[aboutime]

I am far from a grammar police type of person, not even interested in being spelling police. However, it is annoying when sentences are missing a subject and/or predicate. Paragraphs are supposed to have topic or theme.

Please, take the time to get your thoughts in order.


BS Kathianne. Look at how you intentionally ignored everything I said...bad grammar and all, to be the GRAMMAR COP you claim not to be.

[BillyBob]

No you didn't. Thanks for stepping forward.


You are going to have to do better than that. It's your claim, link to the posts which are bigoted, hateful and judgmental . I mean, besides your own.

[aboutime]

You are going to have to do better than that. It's your claim, link to the posts which are bigoted, hateful and judgmental . I mean, besides your own.


No need. Just keep posting as yourself. Ask others what they think. Not me. The proof is in YOUR WORDS.

[Voted4Reagan]

Here is how I look at it...

If you're Baptist ... Be a Baptist ... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Muslim... Be a Muslim... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Protestant ... Be a Protestant... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Lutheran... Be a Lutheran... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Methodist... Be a Methodist... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Catholic... Be a Catholic... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


Practice YOUR OWN BELIEFS and dont interfere with how or what others practice as their own...


THAT IS FREEDOM OF RELIGION...The freedom to practice without interference..

[Kathianne]

One thing has become very obvious with this, and several other threads. What would that be? There's no subject.

One doesn't need to look too hard to find so many totally uninformed, bigoted, hate-filled people who think they

are justified in Judging others, based on their religious beliefs. Okay.

This thread has become one of those places. How? No coherence in thought.

Those who hate so much, and show it almost everywhere they go on this forum. Should just step forward

and admit. THEY HATE EVERYONE who isn't THEM. There is nothing above this to justify this sentence/conclusion. Actually it would be impossible to claim a conclusive statement from what came before.


BS Kathianne. Look at how you intentionally ignored everything I said...bad grammar and all, to be the GRAMMAR COP you claim not to be.

Actually, I didn't. The responses in red explain why I responded as I did.

[aboutime]

Actually, I didn't. The responses in red explain why I responded as I did.


Disappointed in you. Honestly. Your responses in red only occurred AFTER I noted your BS.

How sad.

[BillyBob]

No need. Just keep posting as yourself. Ask others what they think. Not me. The proof is in YOUR WORDS.


In other words, you're just blowing smoke out of your ass and cannot back up your ridiculous claims.

Got it.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are having a very interesting discussion about religion with a specific side discussion about Christianity, History and the Bible. Please feel free to join in.

[BillyBob]

Here is how I look at it...

If you're Baptist ... Be a Baptist ... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Muslim... Be a Muslim... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Protestant ... Be a Protestant... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Lutheran... Be a Lutheran... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Methodist... Be a Methodist... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Catholic... Be a Catholic... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


Practice YOUR OWN BELIEFS and dont interfere with how or what others practice as their own...


THAT IS FREEDOM OF RELIGION...The freedom to practice without interference..

Freedom of religion also allows for evangelizing.

[Missileman]

Freedom of religion also allows for evangelizing.

If that's true, then freedom of religion allows for jihad, human sacrifice, and a myriad of other religious expressions.

[Voted4Reagan]

Evangelizing... yes: The Primary Definition being...

e·van·gel·ize (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-vhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifnhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifjhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/imacr.gifzhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif)v. e·van·gel·ized, e·van·gel·iz·ing, e·van·gel·iz·es
v.tr.1. To preach the gospel



Proselytizing for the purpose of Conversion?... NO

Interfering with another persons beliefs..... NO

Simply put...Shut up...Worship YOUR GOD, Leave other peoples beliefs alone.

That goes for everyone...

[Kathianne]

Freedom of religion also allows for evangelizing.

Up until this point, you were fine. There are restrictions on public bodies for 'evangelizing' under any vocab word. Publicly funded venues may not do so: schools as the primary bone of contention.

[BillyBob]

If that's true, then freedom of religion allows for jihad, human sacrifice, and a myriad of other religious expressions.


Evangelizing is speech and protected by the first amendment. Not sure how you equate murder and sacrifice with protected speech.

[BillyBob]

Up until this point, you were fine. There are restrictions on public bodies for 'evangelizing' under any vocab word. Publicly funded venues may not do so: schools as the primary bone of contention.


Yes, I am aware that libs have been crusading [<---see what I did there?] against the first amendment for decades and specifically targeting christianity. Regardless, there is nothing illegal about evangelizing especially in the context in which I brought it up.

[gabosaurus]

Yes, I am aware that libs have been crusading [<---see what I did there?] against the first amendment for decades and specifically targeting christianity. Regardless, there is nothing illegal about evangelizing especially in the context in which I brought it up.

I have nothing against evangelizing. Up to the point where it becomes solicitation. I am against anyone coming to my door selling their religious beliefs. Same thing with religious panhandlers.

[BillyBob]

I have nothing against evangelizing. Up to the point where it becomes solicitation. I am against anyone coming to my door selling their religious beliefs. Same thing with religious panhandlers.

You certainly have the right to reject people who knock on your door and not submit yourself to any speech you don't want to hear. Just because someone has the right to speak doesn't obligate you to listen.


[I wonder why 'speech' is spelled with 2 'e's but 'speak' is 'ea'?]

[logroller]

Do you have a copy of an early Bible that confirms Peter was a Pope, christians are supposed to pray top Mary, only a priest can absolve you of your sins and only if you confess etc?

Btw, there are NT scriptures that date back to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries. So it's not like the NT was rewritten in the 15th century without scriptures to compare it to. The Catholic church was invented by the Romans as a means of power and control around the 3rd century.
No I dont have ancient manuscripts and it serves to reason that much of what existed has been lost and the gaps were filled in, not to mention the translation of millennia old scriptures is subject to the interpretation of he who is translating. I'm not saying the NT is wrong or Catholicism is right; I don't kniw whats right for anyone but myself; but so too do I exhort that all should be permitted to practice however they wish (within reason, of course; ie no human sacrifices etc) If that means evangelizing from the street corner or chanting to belzebub on the solstice it makes no difference to me. It would be a cruel act of vengeance to disallow pagan worship when Christians themselves were persecuted for their failure to do the same early on. Someone early on said that Christians were responsible for religious tolerance and I believe that if that is so it would serve well to practice what one preaches.

[Kathianne]

Yes, I am aware that libs have been crusading [<---see what I did there?] against the first amendment for decades and specifically targeting christianity. Regardless, there is nothing illegal about evangelizing especially in the context in which I brought it up.

Not in public schools or other publicly funded venues, that was MY point.

[Kathianne]

Would someone. Anyone here. Please explain to me what point has been made, or what has been accomplished with any of the discussions here?

Does any member who has posted have any Power over anyone else to convince anyone else ONLY THEIR OPINION is correct when it comes to discussing Which aspect of any religious belief came first, or was created due to another religion?

Unless one of you happens to live in the VATICAN, and you wear a White Robe, with a White mitre on your head.

The arguments here are useless, and seemingly. Only another topic for people to endlessly argue over.

For the sake of argument, if someone had the above, would that change the discussion? I doubt it. Haters are going to hate and those aren't the Catholics on board.

[revelarts]

Here is how I look at it...
If you're Baptist ... Be a Baptist ... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs
If you're Muslim... Be a Muslim... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs
If you're Protestant ... Be a Protestant... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs
If you're Lutheran... Be a Lutheran... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs
If you're Methodist... Be a Methodist... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs
If you're Catholic... Be a Catholic... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs
Practice YOUR OWN BELIEFS and dont interfere with how or what others practice as their own...
THAT IS FREEDOM OF RELIGION...The freedom to practice without interference..

Evangelizing... yes: The Primary Definition being...
e·van·gel·ize (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-vhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifnhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifjhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/imacr.gifzhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif)v. e·van·gel·ized, e·van·gel·iz·ing, e·van·gel·iz·es
v.tr.1. To preach the gospel
Proselytizing for the purpose of Conversion?... NO
Interfering with another persons beliefs..... NO
Simply put...Shut up...Worship YOUR GOD, Leave other peoples beliefs alone.
That goes for everyone...

V4R your welcome to your opinion but it's not mine and not even the view of older RC church that went all over the world converting people and proseltiizing from ASIA to to South America to Africa.
EVER place the RCChurch went they not only evangelized but they attempt to RE-CULTURe the whole place. They tried to euro-size ever culture they touched. Made cathedrals and dresses convert in european clothes. Made priest of old witch doctors, converted Buddhist and Muslims and pagans EVER chance they got.

I'm not sure how you come to this view now.
Do you have a Pope's word on this or an Irish proverb that gives you your position.
or is it just your personal conviction that you are ready to curse others for, if they don't hold the same view.
St. Patrick Proselytized and Converted the old pagan child sacrificing Irish chiefs and druids.
What are you talking about?

Ok you earlier took to time to get some bible verses to back up what you believe about Popes and such.
.....
After all... The first Pope of the Church was a friend and disciple of Jesus himself... He said to Saint Peter: And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha] I will build my church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) [ekklesian], and the gates of hell (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08631b.htm). And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm): and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm)". Then he commanded his disciples (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05029a.htm), that they should tell no one that he was Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) the Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10212c.htm) (Matthew 16:13-20 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mat016.htm#vrs13); Mark 8:27-30 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mar008.htm#vrs27); Luke 9:18-21 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk009.htm#vrs18)).
.....



I'm guessing you don't mind others quoting a verse or 3 to back up what they believe about
evangelizing, proselytizing and conversion.

Jesus:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.

Mark
seems to me pretty clear that Jesus intend for his followers to Preach to EVERYBODY in the whole world. there are no exceptions for those that already have a religion they think is true.


here we have Jesus talking to a Sametian Women. with a RELIGION of her own, that's a little different than the Jews
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:

What is the Lod Jesus Chrsit saying here? HOW DARE HE TELL THIS WOMAN SHE DOESN"T KNOW WHAT SHE WORSHIPED!!! And that salvation is from the JEWS! How INTOLERANT?!!
Maybe a banshesh should straiten him out.

Jesus talking a the Jewish elders who had their on Beliefs BEFORE Jesus came on the scene. He should have just left them alone right?
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”


The jewish people there had there own beliefs, who was Jesus to say that because they did not believe they were of the devil. They had a Temple and the laws of Moses and everything already. How DARE he say that they were of the DEVIL. that's just HIS intolerant opinion right?

Here's the proselytizing Apostle Paul traveling all over asia-minor trying to convert people and telling them there faiths are WRONG.

Here he's telling people who worship many idols and pagan deities that they are ignorant of what GOD really thinks. because he's Intolerant or because he understands that it is the truth?
ACT 17:
God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”



Paul is telling a Jewish man who was into pagan sorcery and witchcraft that he was a child of the devil.
Is this the LOVE of God? mm yes. How dare he question that man's sincerely held religion? and he put a curse on him. intolerant Apostle? ACTS 13
There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7 who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10 “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.”Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

God Gave Paul a Miracle in one city and the people there had a tradition that Jupiter had come to the area before. and they wanted to be ready if he showed up again. When Paul performed the Miracle. the local priest of Jupiter showed up. I'm sure he was a good neighbor. but he showed in the mistaken belief that Paul was Jupiter in disguise. Paul not only corrects him on that point but said that the worship of Jupiter was WORTHLESS. didn't Paul know that V4R does not approve of people trying to tell other people their religions are no good. Paul then goes on to tell them to turn to God via Jesus. why didn't Paul just KEEP SILENT and let them go on with their religion of worshiping pagan gods? It was because he cared for their souls and wanted them to know the true God and drop the false Gods. Not because he was Intolerant. it was because he understood that he knew the TRUTH and he was obligated to tell others. to deliver them from the judgment to come.
Acts 14:
Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed 10 and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk.

11 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.
14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.”


so no V4R I don't agree that we should STHU about what we believe concerning Jesus Christ. or other faiths. i respect every human being but there is a message that we are pass on to them because we care. To some it sounds offensive. But Jesus says it's just the Truth.

Jesus answered,
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:5-7

[BillyBob]

Not in public schools or other publicly funded venues, that was MY point.

It happens in prisons all the time.

[Kathianne]

I grew up Catholic and I suppose I still am. I've always been confused about the main differences of Christianity and Catholicism. I have a page bookmarked from awhile back, but I don't know if the writer is "biased" or not knowledgeable. If this is true, sounds like I would prefer to be Christian, while at the same time having a lot of loyalty and respect for the Catholic Church, as that's what I grew up with. I have reading to do now!



Rest here: http://www.catholic2christian.com/what-is-the-difference-between-catholic-and-christian.html

Yeah, a Catholic going to born again Protestant, and on that one loses faith. Whatever floats your boat.

Catholicism believes that with Baptism, one is one with the faith. Unless one chooses differently, that's it. No need for flames, tongues, or healings. Go there if one wants, the Protestants are now the ones selling indulgences via TV, Cable, and radio. Don't forget the Crystal mega churches.

[Voted4Reagan]

V4R your welcome to your opinion but it's not mine and not even the view of older RC church that went all over the world converting people and proseltiizing from ASIA to to South America to Africa.
EVER place the RCChurch went they not only evangelized but they attempt to RE-CULTURe the whole place. They tried to euro-size ever culture they touched. Made cathedrals and dresses convert in european clothes. Made priest of old witch doctors, converted Buddhist and Muslims and pagans EVER chance they got.

I'm not sure how you come to this view now.
Do you have a Pope's word on this or an Irish proverb that gives you your position.
or is it just your personal conviction that you are ready to curse others for, if they don't hold the same view.
St. Patrick Proselytized and Converted the old pagan child sacrificing Irish chiefs and druids.
What are you talking about?

Ok you earlier took to time to get some bible verses to back up what you believe about Popes and such.



I'm guessing you don't mind others quoting a verse or 3 to back up what they believe about
evangelizing, proselytizing and conversion.

Jesus:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.

Mark
seems to me pretty clear that Jesus intend for his followers to Preach to EVERYBODY in the whole world. there are no exceptions for those that already have a religion they think is true.


here we have Jesus talking to a Sametian Women. with a RELIGION of her own, that's a little different than the Jews
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:

What is the Lod Jesus Chrsit saying here? HOW DARE HE TELL THIS WOMAN SHE DOESN"T KNOW WHAT SHE WORSHIPED!!! And that salvation is from the JEWS! How INTOLERANT?!!
Maybe a banshesh should straiten him out.

Jesus talking a the Jewish elders who had their on Beliefs BEFORE Jesus came on the scence. He should have just left them alone right?
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”


The jewish people there had there own beliefs, who was Jesus to say that because they did not believe they were of the devil. They had a Temple and the laws of Moses and everything already. How DARE he say that they were of the DEVIL. that's just HIS intolerant opinion right?

Here's the proselytizing Apostle Paul traveling all over asia-minor trying to convert people and telling them there faiths are WRONG.

Here he's telling people who worship many idols and pagan deities that they are ignorant of what GOD really thinks. because he's Intolerant or because he understands that it is the truth?
ACT 17:
God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”



Paul is saying a Jewish man that was into pagan sorcerer and witchcraft was a CHILD of the DEVIL!!!
Is this the LOVE of God. mm yes. How dare he question that man's sincerely held religion? and he put a curse on him. intolerant Apostle? ACTS 13
There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7 who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10 “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.”Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

God Gave Paul the Mirice in one city and the people there had a tradition that Jupiter had come to the area before. and they wanted to be ready if he showed up again. When Paul performed the Miricle. the local priest of Jupiter showed up. I'm sure he was a good neighbor. but he showed in the mistaken belief that Paul was Jupiter in disguise. Paul not only correct him on that level but said that the worship of Jupiter was WORTHLESS. didn't Paul know that V4R does not approve of people trying to tell other people there religions are no good. Pul then goes o to tell them to Turn to God via Jesus. why didn't Paul just KEEP SILENT and let them go on with there religion of worshiping pagan gods? It was because he cared for there souls and wanted them to know the true God and drop the false Gods. Not because he was Intolerant. it was because he understood that he knew the TRUTH and he was obligated to tell others. to deliever them from the judgment to come.
Acts 14:
Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed 10 and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk.

11 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.
14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.”


so no V4R I don't agree that we should STHU about what we believe concerning Jesus Christ. or other faiths. i respect every human being but there is a message that we are pass on to them because we care. To some it sounds offense. But Jesus says it's just the Truth.

Jesus answered,
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:5-7

Yet you push your views on others, you say you would obstruct pagans from holding services, or Circle or Coven Meetings or a festival to celebrate their beliefs if you had the authority.

That is NOT abiding by freedom of religion... that is infringing on someones right to practice their faith in a manner of their choosing.

That is Intolerance. Plain and simple...

Practice YOUR FAITH and leave others alone...

By the way....The Catholic Church gave up proselytizing back in the 1940's.

Simply put there is a distinction between EVANGELIZING and PROSELYTIZING

Evangelising: Sharing the faith with others, by example, catechesis or rational argument

Proselytizing: Attempting to convert someone by any means necessary.


Both you and Tailfins are guilty of PROSELYTIZING..

[BillyBob]

Yeah, a Catholic going to born again Protestant, and on that one loses faith. Whatever floats your boat.

Loses faith in what?




Catholicism believes that with Baptism, one is one with the faith. Unless one chooses differently, that's it.

That's not biblical. If Baptism is required then there was no need for the Cross.




No need for flames, tongues, or healings.

Who says they are needed?




Go there if one wants, the Protestants are now the ones selling indulgences via TV, Cable, and radio. Don't forget the Crystal mega churches.

Speaking of indulgences and Cryrstal mega churches......

http://www.shc.edu/theolibrary/graphics/vatican1.jpg

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/327/cache/06-places-lifetime-traveler-vatican_32769_990x742.jpg

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/forbestravelguide/files/2013/03/TheVaticanMuseumsInterior_FB.jpg

That's the Vatican, in case you didn't know.


http://www.freewoodpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/popemobile.jpg

That's the Pope, in case you didn't know. I wonder how many people have seen him on TV being driven around in his dopey 'Pope-Mobile' Nothing indulgent about that.....

[BillyBob]

Jesus rode on a mule but the Pope rides in a Mercedes. lol

[BillyBob]

Proselytizing: Attempting to convert someone by any means necessary.



Ever heard of the Catholic 'Inquisition'?

[Voted4Reagan]

[/COLOR]
[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

Ever heard of the Catholic 'Inquisition'?

the one almost 1000 years ago? yes....

We outgrew that...

[BillyBob]

the one almost 1000 years ago? yes....

We outgrew that...


Yet you are equating that with what some posters here do? Really?

[Voted4Reagan]

Yet you are equating that with what some posters here do? Really?

no...YOU tried to equate it... not I.

You put it forth as an argumentative Equivalent. you did this in an effort to switch direction back onto me by throwing a 1000 year old medieval tribunal up at me. Thats about as off topic as you can get.

The Catholic Church does NOT engage in Proselytizing anymore. As a matter of fact the church is currently working to end the GREAT SCHISM of 1054 and Reconcile with our Eastern Orthodox Brethren. Ending nearly 1000 years of separation. It would bring the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Coptic Sects back together under the Vatican, ending 1000 years over what can be perceived today as a simple matter of Doctrine.

You'll notice that John Paul II, Benedict XVI and now Pope Francis I all included the Eastern Rite Churches in Vatican Ceremony.

We dont need to Proselytize. We are in the middle of a consolodation that one day may re-unite all the branches of Catholicism once again.

[BillyBob]

no...YOU tried to equate it... not I..


Nope, that was YOU:




Proselytizing: Attempting to convert someone by any means necessary.


Both you and Tailfins are guilty of PROSELYTIZING..

[gabosaurus]

[I wonder why 'speech' is spelled with 2 'e's but 'speak' is 'ea'?]

You should bring this up at the next meeting of the Church of Redneck Stupidity.

[Voted4Reagan]

You should bring this up at the next meeting of the Church of Redneck Stupidity.

now Gabby.... no need to be insulting....Fight with FACTS not Schoolyard Insults.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dexQhvczVeM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:laugh2::dance::laugh2:

[BillyBob]

The Catholic Church does NOT engage in Proselytizing anymore.

Of course they do. First, let's get a better definition of that word.

Definition of PROSELYTIZEintransitive verb
1
: to induce someone to convert to one's faith

2
: to recruit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/recruit[1]) someone to join one's party, institution, or cause


The Catholic church is constantly engaged in that practice.







As a matter of fact the church is currently working to end the GREAT SCHISM of 1054 and Reconcile with our Eastern Orthodox Brethren. Ending nearly 1000 years of separation. It would bring the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and Coptic Sects back together under the Vatican,

They don't belong 'under the Vatican'.



ending 1000 years over what can be perceived today as a simple matter of Doctrine.

You'll notice that John Paul II, Benedict XVI and now Pope Francis I all included the Eastern Rite Churches in Vatican Ceremony.

We dont need to Proselytize. We are in the middle of a consolodation that one day may re-unite all the branches of Catholicism once again.

2000 years after Jesus and the Catholics are still engaged in a power grab.

[tailfins]

Here is how I look at it...

If you're Baptist ... Be a Baptist ... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Muslim... Be a Muslim... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Protestant ... Be a Protestant... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Lutheran... Be a Lutheran... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Methodist... Be a Methodist... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


If you're Catholic... Be a Catholic... Dont tell anyone you'll interfere with their beliefs


Practice YOUR OWN BELIEFS and dont interfere with how or what others practice as their own...


THAT IS FREEDOM OF RELIGION...The freedom to practice without interference..


That's not what the Bible teaches:
Matthew 28:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[aboutime]

You should bring this up at the next meeting of the Church of Redneck Stupidity.


When will we be able to listen to your sermon Gabby?

[revelarts]

...
Simply put there is a distinction between EVANGELIZING and PROSELYTIZING
Evangelising: Sharing the faith with others, by example, catechesis or rational argument
Proselytizing: Attempting to convert someone by any means necessary.
Both you and Tailfins are guilty of PROSELYTIZING..

Your guilty of making up your own definitions
Seems to be a thing to do on this board


From 3 different dictionaries:
.................................................. ..............................................
Proselytize (websters)

1: to induce someone to convert to one's faith
2: to recruit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/recruit[1]) someone to join one's party, institution, or cause
transitive verb
: to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause

.................................................. ..............................................
pros·e·ly·tize (prhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/obreve.gifshttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-thttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/imacr.gifzhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif) (free dictionary)

v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v.intr.1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
v.tr. To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.

.................................................. ..............................................
proselytize (Oxfords English)
verb



convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another:the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many [no object]:proselytizing for converts (as noun proselytizing)no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds
advocate or promote (a belief or course of action):Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas

.................................................. ..........

You are also guilty of making false accusation what would Bane Si' think of that?

"convert someone by any means necessary"
Please show the board how that fits ANYTHING we've said?
You keep saying the RCC hurch doesn't do this or that horrible thing anymore fine. I've never come in 1000 miles of doing the things the RC church did for centuries to FORCE people to convert. And I'm sorry but you can't claim historical lineage and authority of the RC church on one hand and then want others to fergitabout all the true history on the other.

And then implying that politely critiquing anothers faith and comparing it's assertions with those in the Bible is falls into an "any means necessary" realm is just BS.
If it bothers you, fine then say so, but don't over dramatize it to imply it's nigh on the Spanish inquisition or witch trials, that's just BS crazy talk.

And just for reference
...I believe in the constitution, but there is a higher law that i'm bound too.
However I guess from a constitutional and freedom POV the city council should NOT be granting permits for people to freely gather at the park AT ALL.
They have no authority to stop it, if they are not breaking the law.
problem solved.
But Again, i don't think the founders foresaw this issue. but maybe they did ...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances....

[tailfins]

Loses faith in what?





That's not biblical. If Baptism is required then there was no need for the Cross.





Who says they are needed?





Speaking of indulgences and Cryrstal mega churches......



That's the Vatican, in case you didn't know.




That's the Pope, in case you didn't know. I wonder how many people have seen him on TV being driven around in his dopey 'Pope-Mobile' Nothing indulgent about that.....

Like I said about people that fixate on Islam: Error is error. We don't need to waste our time figuring what kind of error. Just focus on what's correct. I say the same about Islam, Catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism. I don't call occultist just in error because they practice an evil truth: Cooperating with Lucifer.

[BillyBob]

Like I said about people that fixate on Islam: Error is error. We don't need to waste our time figuring what kind of error. Just focus on what's correct. I say the same about Islam, Catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism. I don't call occultist just in error because they practice an evil truth: Cooperating with Lucifer.


I was hoping to show Kathianne that the Catholics are the biggest offenders of what she accused non catholics of. Apparently it worked because she hasn't been back in a couple days. Maybe I taught her something, I can only hope it benefits her.

[Robert A Whit]

I have always believed one's religion is an essential part of one's life and that legal public expression of it should not be an issue for anyone. You want to hire out a local park for a church picnic or revival meeting? Good for you and many blessings on your effort. So why is the religious community in Florida so outraged over a totally legal use of a publicly available venue?

http://florida.newszap.com/belleglade/122791-113/summer-solstice-pagan-festival-has-pahokee-residents-outraged
PAHOKEE—Pahokee residents, church members, and pastors are outraged over an upcoming event at the Lake Okeechobee Resort and Marina. The marina will be hosting its first Lake Okeechobee Summer Solstice Festival – a program that organizers hope will become an annual event.
The event will be held June 19-23.
Pastors from various churches in Pahokee attended Tuesday night’s city commission meeting to express disappointment in city leaders for allowing the event to come to Pahokee. The crowd cheered in agreement as, one-by-one, pastors from around the area admonished city officials for allowing festivals containing witchcraft and occult practices into the city.


http://wildhunt.org/2013/05/the-limits-of-christian-tolerance-florida-edition.html

Now, instead of simply enjoying a nice Summer Solstice celebration, organizers and attendees will have to worry about protestors, about proper security, about harassment from the locals. The irony of course is that if the situation were reversed, the noise about Christian persecution would be deafening. The forces of secularism and Paganism would be excoriated for daring to even entertain limiting the freedoms of Christian fellowship. If Pagans dared to march against a Christian event, the protestors would be mobbed with counter-protestors.
Of course, Pagans wouldn’t march against a Christian gathering, they simply want to practice their faith, and Florida has a thriving Pagan community. It’s home to the Florida Pagan Gathering (http://www.flapagan.org/), and theEverglades Moon Local Council of the Covenant of the Goddess (http://emlc.net/), among other groups and organizations. Heck, The Witches’ Voice (http://www.witchvox.com/) is headquartered in Florida! I hate to break it to these outraged Christian leaders in Pahokee but the Pagan toothpaste is already out of the tube. So maybe these good Christians might want to engage in some of the famous love and tolerance of their savior.


You have a lot of idle time on your hands from the above laments.

[Robert A Whit]

I was hoping to show Kathianne that the Catholics are the biggest offenders of what she accused non catholics of. Apparently it worked because she hasn't been back in a couple days. Maybe I taught her something, I can only hope it benefits her.

Sorry but you are dealing with a slow learner. Seems she has been told many times that my name is Robert but she still calls me other things.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I believe everyone, no matter what religious beliefs they may have. Should be permitted to express themselves SAFELY, without harming others. According to the First Amendment.

Even if they choose to do something that may destroy their bodies, brains, or animals as part of their religion.

They should be permitted to freely dispose, and eradicate each other, according to their beliefs.

Just as Everyone cannot be refused the Right to be Stupid, Dumb, or Ignorant.
That's how great our Constitution really is.
And so many who live among us....practice it so perfectly.

So,. if my religion requires I sacrifice a cow daily, in the town center square, you're okay with that?

Dumb ass.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Sorry but you are dealing with a slow learner. Seems she has been told many times that my name is Robert but she still calls me other things.

yes, you are a slow learner, aren't you. Your 'vacation' does not appear to have smartened you up any.

[BillyBob]

So,. if my religion requires I sacrifice a cow daily, in the town center square, you're okay with that?

Is there a butcher shop nearby, 'cause that would make sense.

[aboutime]

yes, you are a slow learner, aren't you. Your 'vacation' does not appear to have smartened you up any.


Marcus. Funny how talking about himself just never seemed to catch on during that Vacation. He's gone right after Kathianne again.

Reminds me of Yogi Berra..."deja vu all over again!"

[Voted4Reagan]

This thread has become nothing but a Bash Other religions thread and should be closed before it get out of hand.

The original premise of TOLERENCE put forth by the OP has been redirected by several others to show Intolerence and to promote attacks against other faiths...

Clean up or close this... I have the OP's permission to ask as I live with her and was told OK

[tailfins]

This thread has become nothing but a Bash Other religions thread and should be closed before it get out of hand.

The original premise of TOLERENCE put forth by the OP has been redirected by several others to show Intolerence and to promote attacks against other faiths...

Clean up or close this... I have the OP's permission to ask as I live with her and was told OK

Don't start topics if you don't want to see opposing views. It's kind of obvious: sort of like don't bang your head against a wall if you don't want a headache. It's not the wall's fault you have a headache.

[jafar00]

So,. if my religion requires I sacrifice a cow daily, in the town center square, you're okay with that?

Dumb ass.

Depends on if you are breaking the law by doing so. If, like in Australia it is illegal to self slaughter a cow in your home then you would probably have to get a member of your community who is qualified or licensed to do it. Like in Egypt, you are free to buy a cow and slaughter it in your yard if you like, but the slaughtering must be done by a qualified butcher.

[tailfins]

Depends on if you are breaking the law by doing so. If, like in Australia it is illegal to self slaughter a cow in your home then you would probably have to get a member of your community who is qualified or licensed to do it. Like in Egypt, you are free to buy a cow and slaughter it in your yard if you like, but the slaughtering must be done by a qualified butcher.

I never thought of that. There are sanitation laws after all. I must ask: What would happen if a Kosher slaughter were to happen in Egypt by a Rabbi?

[jafar00]

I never thought of that. There are sanitation laws after all. I must ask: What would happen if a Kosher slaughter were to happen in Egypt by a Rabbi?

There would probably be a few people visiting for a bit of steak ;)

[BillyBob]

This thread has become nothing but a Bash Other religions thread and should be closed before it get out of hand.

The original premise of TOLERENCE put forth by the OP has been redirected by several others to show Intolerence and to promote attacks against other faiths...

Clean up or close this... I have the OP's permission to ask as I live with her and was told OK


It's funny how catholics always want to silence the opposition. Been that way for 2000 years.

And ironically we have a thread dedicated to religious freedom and a Catholic is threatening to shut it down. That says it all.

[BillyBob]

I never thought of that. There are sanitation laws after all. I must ask: What would happen if a Kosher slaughter were to happen in Egypt by a Rabbi?


What would happen if a muslim slaughtered a Rabbi in Egypt?




http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_sQq0lRnMPI8/TCDb269dwaI/AAAAAAAAAgk/QdicpvD0FxE/s1600/happy+muslim.bmp

[revelarts]

V4R


I have always believed one's religion is an essential part of one's life and that legal public expression of it should not be an issue for anyone. You want to hire out a local park for a church picnic or revival meeting? Good for you and many blessings on your effort.
So why is the religious community in Florida so outraged over a totally legal use of a publicly available venue?

..... (http://florida.newszap.com/belleglade/122791-113/summer-solstice-pagan-festival-has-pahokee-residents-outraged)


Seems to me the theme wasn't just Promoting tolerance but WHY a religious community is so outraged.

The thread is fairly on track and V4R i see no religion "bashing" since your last false accusations of mis-defined of "proselytizing" .

[tailfins]

It's funny how catholics always want to silence the opposition. Been that way for 2000 years.

And ironically we have a thread dedicated to religious freedom and a Catholic is threatening to shut it down. That says it all.

Don't you mean 1500 years? While only a 25% difference, it's a difference with a huge meaning.

[BillyBob]

Don't you mean 1500 years? While only a 25% difference, it's a difference with a huge meaning.


Absolutely. Maybe 1700 yearsish. [300 AD]

[Voted4Reagan]

V4R



Seems to me the theme wasn't just Promoting tolerance but WHY a religious community is so outraged.

The thread is fairly on track and V4R i see no religion "bashing" since your last false accusations of mis-defined of "proselytizing" .

no...it is off track.... Speak your last bits here REV/TAILFINS/BILLYBOB...

As we say... this thread is Fermee..... Thats TOAST in French.

[revelarts]

no...it is off track.... Speak your last bits here REV/TAILFINS/BILLYBOB...

As we say... this thread is Fermee..... Thats TOAST in French.

Please point to my "religion bashing post" or leave me out of your accusations V4R.

[Nukeman]

no...it is off track.... Speak your last bits here REV/TAILFINS/BILLYBOB...

As we say... this thread is Fermee..... Thats TOAST in French.Have to disagree with you V4R. This thread, although a little off, has not dumped into bashing... It is still under the original OP.. Some here are a bit vocal but that is it.. No reason to CLOSE the thread.. Unless of course YOU are for censorship of freedom of speach?

[BillyBob]

Have to disagree with you V4R. This thread, although a little off, has not dumped into bashing... It is still under the original OP.. Some here are a bit vocal but that is it.. No reason to CLOSE the thread.. Unless of course YOU are for censorship of freedom of speach?


Well, he's catholic....so.........

[BillyBob]

I notice Kathianne hasn't posted since I pointed out her hypocrisy.

[tailfins]

no...it is off track.... Speak your last bits here REV/TAILFINS/BILLYBOB...

As we say... this thread is Fermee..... Thats TOAST in French.

Do they use two "e" in France? In Quebec the stores only use one "e" on store signs. "Ouvert" and "Ferme".

http://www.denis.ca/assets/prod_images/05981-37_f.jpg

[Kathianne]

I notice Kathianne hasn't posted since I pointed out her hypocrisy.

Actually you failed, miserably. You proved my point about Protestantism, present and past. Your deflection towards Church resources again speaks of past and future.

You tried to turn the point that you are wrong regarding Christianity's roots into bash Catholics.

As for my being absent from here, my son was married this weekend. For some reason your prejudices weren't even in the running for my interests.

Perhaps most gratifying of all, you have reinforced my beliefs that most Protestants that consider themselves 'literalists' have more focus on hating than on Christ. The only exception of your ilk that has me saying 'most' is Rev, perhaps the best example I've seen on walking and talking.

You just have demonstrated a more open set of prejudices than others here.

[tailfins]

Actually you failed, miserably. You proved my point about Protestantism, present and past. Your deflection towards Church resources again speaks of past and future.

You tried to turn the point that you are wrong regarding Christianity's roots into bash Catholics.

As for my being absent from here, my son was married this weekend. For some reason your prejudices weren't even in the running for my interests.

Perhaps most gratifying of all, you have reinforced my beliefs that most Protestants that consider themselves 'literalists' have more focus on hating than on Christ. The only exception of your ilk that has me saying 'most' is Rev, perhaps the best example I've seen on walking and talking.

You just have demonstrated a more open set of prejudices than others here.

I try to avoid singling out Catholicism: Error is error is error. I don't care if the error is Muslim, Catholic, Unitarian, Buddhist or whatever, it's just error. At least you're not an occultist (my best guess). Apparently some Catholics are occultists. I know in Brazil there are. After reading Voted4ReaganAndObama, I guess there are also those in the US that do that as well.

[Voted4Reagan]

I try to avoid singling out Catholicism: Error is error is error. I don't care if the error is Muslim, Catholic, Unitarian, Buddhist or whatever, it's just error. At least you're not an occultist (my best guess). Apparently some Catholics are occultists. I know in Brazil there are. After reading Voted4ReaganAndObama, I guess there are also those in the US that do that as well.

Irish Catholics are the most accepting of those of Pagan beliefs because we were a society of Pagans for thousands of years before Catholicism. Our heritage and culture are filled with the stories of the Fae Folk and their presence among us.

and for those of you who will call my acceptance of Paganism being an OCCULTIST or SATANIST or any other disparaging term, I would like you to note one thing...

In the ancient language of my Pagan ancestors the term FAE FOLK translate to the Little people or the GOOD PEOPLE.

Pog mo' Thoin'! to all of you that criticize the pagan beliefs of others and hold yourselves over them as being somehow superior.

I live with a Pagan and the only thing she has summoned in the 12 years I have known her is the Dog for her supper!

get a life

[BillyBob]

Actually you failed, miserably.

Nope, I succeeded immensely. You whined about crystal palaces and I showed you the biggest, most grandiose crystal palace of them all, the Vatican.







You proved my point about Protestantism, present and past. Your deflection towards Church resources again speaks of past and future.

I never claimed to be a Protestant and all I did was embarrass you by pointing out your hypocrisy. I can only imagine how the Pope felt when Martin Luther did the same thing...times 95.





You tried to turn the point that you are wrong regarding Christianity's roots into bash Catholics.

You guys make it so easy. Oh, and Catholicism is not the original Christian church, no matter what they told you in Catechism class.





As for my being absent from here, my son was married this weekend. For some reason your prejudices weren't even in the running for my interests.

Congratulations. Did you see the pictures of the Vatican I posted for you and that cool Mercedes Popemobile? lol




Perhaps most gratifying of all, you have reinforced my beliefs that most Protestants that consider themselves 'literalists' have more focus on hating than on Christ. The only exception of your ilk that has me saying 'most' is Rev, perhaps the best example I've seen on walking and talking.

What a hateful thing to say.





You just have demonstrated a more open set of prejudices than others here.

Huh, I was thinking that very same thing about you.