Sometimes the limited government place ISN'T better

[tailfins]

After living in NH for about a year, it seems that it just doesn't measure up to MA. The only big drawback for MA is the awful housing market where crap costs big bucks. However, the work culture is like another planet where associates are often trusted and encouraged to use and stretch their skills, experiment and have lots of creative freedom. The threat of firing somebody just doesn't have much of a sting since unemployment benefits are the best in the nation. There is an EMPLOYEE'S job market, so companies try hard not to lose employees.

[CSM]

After living in NH for about a year, it seems that it just doesn't measure up to MA. The only big drawback for MA is the awful housing market where crap costs big bucks. However, the work culture is like another planet where associates are often trusted and encouraged to use and stretch their skills, experiment and have lots of creative freedom. The threat of firing somebody just doesn't have much of a sting since unemployment benefits are the best in the nation. There is an EMPLOYEE'S job market, so companies try hard not to lose employees.

Ummm...ok. I happen to LIKE NH ... born and raised here; came back home after travelling around the world for almost 30 years with the US Army. The only problem with NH that I see is too many refugees from MA. The first thing they do is complain how much better MA is than NH. Fine... go back to MA!

[Thunderknuckles]

What does this have to do with government?

[revelarts]

After living in NH for about a year, it seems that it just doesn't measure up to MA. The only big drawback for MA is the awful housing market where crap costs big bucks. However, the work culture is like another planet where associates are often trusted and encouraged to use and stretch their skills, experiment and have lots of creative freedom. The threat of firing somebody just doesn't have much of a sting since unemployment benefits are the best in the nation. There is an EMPLOYEE'S job market, so companies try hard not to lose employees.

I guess the question is,
Are we creating a gov't for mainly the prosperity or the freedoms of the people?
or
How much and what kind gov't are we willing to have if it can provide --for a while-- a good living and safe retirement?

[aboutime]

After living in NH for about a year, it seems that it just doesn't measure up to MA. The only big drawback for MA is the awful housing market where crap costs big bucks. However, the work culture is like another planet where associates are often trusted and encouraged to use and stretch their skills, experiment and have lots of creative freedom. The threat of firing somebody just doesn't have much of a sting since unemployment benefits are the best in the nation. There is an EMPLOYEE'S job market, so companies try hard not to lose employees.


tailfins. Since it seems NOTHING will ever please you. Contact Obama, and tell him you want to become totally dependent upon a Bigger Government that will make all of your decisions in life for you. Be responsible for every aspect of your life, and they will also decide How much Freedom, Liberty, and Rights you have...part of the DEAL for depending on someone else to do your thinking.
And, you should thank ME, and every other American who will be forced to PAY YOUR WAY.

[tailfins]

Ummm...ok. I happen to LIKE NH ... born and raised here; came back home after travelling around the world for almost 30 years with the US Army. The only problem with NH that I see is too many refugees from MA. The first thing they do is complain how much better MA is than NH. Fine... go back to MA!

All I'm doing to citing the results of an experiment. NH job offers simply pay considerably less than MA (about 25-30% less). Most of the employed population in Salem, NH works in MA. Nashua had a good thing going with Digital, but that's dead. I have a friend that's a native Granite Stater with his heels dug in and he CAN'T get back into information technology and rehabs used cars for a living. Each ideology has it's showcase. If I get too tired of the Northeastern lack of good housing stock, I may give Dallas-Ft. Worth a try. An employee's job market changes company cultures, even in Texas. If there were a barrier to crossing the state line for employment in MA, what do you suppose the unemployment rate in NH would be? There are worse places than NH for sure, but the costs outweigh the benefits from what I've seen so far. If I were to rank the states for quality of life, I would put NH at about fifteenth to twentieth from the top. Of course when MA hits the skids it REALLY hits the skids as in 1990 and 2000-2005.


tailfins. Since it seems NOTHING will ever please you. Contact Obama, and tell him you want to become totally dependent upon a Bigger Government that will make all of your decisions in life for you. Be responsible for every aspect of your life, and they will also decide How much Freedom, Liberty, and Rights you have...part of the DEAL for depending on someone else to do your thinking.
And, you should thank ME, and every other American who will be forced to PAY YOUR WAY.

Because the benefits are there, the employee often successfully pushes back against an unreasonable boss and doesn't need the benefits. Just the option of collecting them changes the company culture.


I guess the question is,
Are we creating a gov't for mainly the prosperity or the freedoms of the people?
or
How much and what kind gov't are we willing to have if it can provide --for a while-- a good living and safe retirement?

There's different levels of governance, including corporate governance. If you work for a hostile boss that expects frequent weekend overtime without pay and rules by fear, you're living under a dictator anyway. If it's really difficult to change employment, it's fosters dictatorial management styles.

[fj1200]

There's different levels of governance, including corporate governance. If you work for a hostile boss that expects frequent weekend overtime without pay and rules by fear, you're living under a dictator anyway. If it's really difficult to change employment, it's fosters dictatorial management styles.

I read what you're saying as sometimes a state's benefit structure equalizes the market power that employers may have over employees. I suppose the question becomes is that the reason for the better work environment or are there other factors? What is the difference between the Boston market and the out-state markets; if the benefits are the same and the job market is measurably worse is it really the benefit structure that is the difference?

[tailfins]

I read what you're saying as sometimes a state's benefit structure equalizes the market power that employers may have over employees. I suppose the question becomes is that the reason for the better work environment or are there other factors? What is the difference between the Boston market and the out-state markets; if the benefits are the same and the job market is measurably worse is it really the benefit structure that is the difference?

So what criteria do you suggest for weeding out companies that are chiselers? By chiselers I mean quote a salary based on 2,000 hours per year and try to manipulate after the fact for 2,500 hours or even 3,000 hours. Or perhaps there's a networking oriented culture where an answer is deemed correct by consensus and not evidence. I have been in cultures where reporting a software bug was improper depending on whom it would offend. I try to constantly refine my methods to weed out above-styled companies.

[fj1200]

So what criteria do you suggest for weeding out companies that are chiselers?

It sounds like you are getting better at weeding out chiselers. I was suggesting that there may be another reason for the MA advantages over NH in your eyes. It could simply be the low unemployment rate that requires Boston employers to be be better; Boston at 5.8 and MA at 6.4, NH was at 5.7 so who knows. The best way for government to make the job market better IMO is to encourage business which will eventually lead to job creation.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The best way for government to make the job market better IMO is to encourage business which will eventually lead to job creation.

Did you send that advice to obama? If you did then he totally rejected it .:laugh:


Does the best way to encourage business in your presentation include less taxing and less regulations at both the state and federal levels ?

If so then we finally agree on something...-Tyr

[fj1200]

Did you send that advice to obama? If you did then he totally rejected it .:laugh:

Why would I? I know what he is.


Does the best way to encourage business in your presentation include less taxing and less regulations at both the state and federal levels ?

If so then we finally agree on something...-Tyr

When have I advocated otherwise.

[DragonStryk72]

So what criteria do you suggest for weeding out companies that are chiselers? By chiselers I mean quote a salary based on 2,000 hours per year and try to manipulate after the fact for 2,500 hours or even 3,000 hours. Or perhaps there's a networking oriented culture where an answer is deemed correct by consensus and not evidence. I have been in cultures where reporting a software bug was improper depending on whom it would offend. I try to constantly refine my methods to weed out above-styled companies.

Well, VT simply defines overtime as over 40 hours per week, and considers getting less than 20 hours a week as unemployed (Less benefits than someone that's fully out of work, but still.), which has gotten employers to actually properly giving their people hours.

However, there is no criteria that will weed out the chiselers, because they will still be chiselers. Maybe they do give you that overtime pay, but they cut the base pay back to decrease or remove what would otherwise be a pay increase for you, or perhaps they put down a policy that NO overtime will be given, shafting a bunch of people who needed the extra hours, with or without the overtime pay. They could also lay people off, cut back hours and hiring of part-timers, and so on and so forth. It sucks, don't get me wrong, but unless the government is going to take away the right for private citizens to own and operate businesses, then chiselers will simply continue to exist.

It's like they said in Demolition Man, "you can't take away prople's right to be assholes!"

[tailfins]

Well, VT simply defines overtime as over 40 hours per week, and considers getting less than 20 hours a week as unemployed (Less benefits than someone that's fully out of work, but still.), which has gotten employers to actually properly giving their people hours.

However, there is no criteria that will weed out the chiselers, because they will still be chiselers. Maybe they do give you that overtime pay, but they cut the base pay back to decrease or remove what would otherwise be a pay increase for you, or perhaps they put down a policy that NO overtime will be given, shafting a bunch of people who needed the extra hours, with or without the overtime pay. They could also lay people off, cut back hours and hiring of part-timers, and so on and so forth. It sucks, don't get me wrong, but unless the government is going to take away the right for private citizens to own and operate businesses, then chiselers will simply continue to exist.

It's like they said in Demolition Man, "you can't take away people's right to be assholes!"


Of course the government shouldn't weed out chiselers. Yes-men (and women) are the perfect match for chiselers. Some company cultures require those too busy obeying so the employees don't think too much or for themselves. Why would people need to put in overtime for free other than for fear of being managed out?

[DragonStryk72]

Of course the government shouldn't weed out chiselers. Yes-men (and women) are the perfect match for chiselers. Some company cultures require those too busy obeying so the employees don't think too much or for themselves. Why would people need to put in overtime for free other than for fear of being managed out?

Actually, most don't have it done "for free", they just don't pay the time-and-a-half, but they also note the people that are willing to throw in the extra work in order to get ahead for promotion or a raise. You also see this a lot in competitive markets for a partner position in their firm, or to become the manager of a new branch office, so that the employees are competing for greater long-term advantage and career advancement. So it isn't always a matter of chiseling for why people are breaking their backs in these sorts of jobs.

Then there are the corporate cultures such as in Japan, where it is seen as a matter of honor, loyalty, and diligence to go that extra mile without asking or expecting anything in return, to go that extra mile for their company.

As to why I answered the way I did, it was you who asked the question, so it seemed appropriate to answer the question.

[tailfins]

Actually, most don't have it done "for free", they just don't pay the time-and-a-half, but they also note the people that are willing to throw in the extra work in order to get ahead for promotion or a raise. You also see this a lot in competitive markets for a partner position in their firm, or to become the manager of a new branch office, so that the employees are competing for greater long-term advantage and career advancement. So it isn't always a matter of chiseling for why people are breaking their backs in these sorts of jobs.

Then there are the corporate cultures such as in Japan, where it is seen as a matter of honor, loyalty, and diligence to go that extra mile without asking or expecting anything in return, to go that extra mile for their company.

As to why I answered the way I did, it was you who asked the question, so it seemed appropriate to answer the question.

Most of the salaried employees I know don't get anything except "brownie points" for the extra 500-1000 hours per year. They don't get one red cent except for atta-boys or "possible promotion consideration" which only happens after putting in the extra 500-1000 hours for three or four years. I'm just trying to refine my methods as neither judge a company too lightly nor too harshly. www.glassdoor.com is a good place for research.

[DragonStryk72]

Most of the salaried employees I know don't get anything except "brownie points" for the extra 500-1000 hours per year. They don't get one red cent except for atta-boys or "possible promotion consideration" which only happens after putting in the extra 500-1000 hours for three or four years. I'm just trying to refine my methods as neither judge a company too lightly nor too harshly. www.glassdoor.com (http://www.glassdoor.com) is a good place for research.

So then, apparently MA does suck to work in, doesn't it? The brownie points you mentioned are for precisely the reasons I mentioned previously. Yeah, employers want to see who is going to go above and beyond for them, and choose their people out of those folks.

[Abbey Marie]

It's always been my feeling that working "extra" hours without extra pay when necessary is one sign of a professional. Jobs with time clocks, whether actual or virtual, and unions, are generally indicia of non-professionals, or in some cases, professionals with union backing. All of my serious career jobs have entailed working late and even sometimes weekends when there was a big project deadline. Law and writing for publication were two such situations.

My husband works in IT, and he is on a call every fifth week, and he goes in once a month on Sunday morning, too. Both are necessary for the position for different reasons. He is highly skilled and very well paid, so we look on it as part of the price of having a really good job. There are limits, though, and if this became the norm, and he was, say, staying late every night, or going in every Sunday, he would be looking elsewhere for employment. My understanding is that teachers often work beyond the school day to grade papers, tutor students, etc.

We all know what we consider too much. My point though, is that I wouldn't want to be looked upon as punching a virtual time clock, regardless of the exigencies of the job. If the position is hourly, then it's a different thing all together.

[jimnyc]

You guys should move to NY, or even better, NYC, you'll absolutely adore the limited government! :coffee:

[Abbey Marie]

You guys should move to NY, or even better, NYC, you'll absolutely adore the limited government! :coffee:

Atr least they could then relax with a big ol' soda. Oh, wait...

[Kathianne]

It's always been my feelinf that working "extra" hours without extra pay when necessary is one sign of a professional. Jobs with time clocks, whether actual or virtual, and unions, are generally indicia of non-professionals, or in some cases, professionals with union backing. All of my serious career jobs have entailed working late and even sometimes weekends if there as a big project deadline. Law and writing for publication were two such situations.

My husband works in IT, and he is on a call every fifth week, and he goes in once a month on Sunday morning, too. Both are necessary for the position for different reasons. He is highly skilled and very well paid, so we look on it as part of the price of having a really good job. There are limits, though, and if this became the norm, and he was, say, staying late every night, or going in every Sunday, he would be looking elsewhere for employment. My understanding is that teachers often work beyond the school day to grade papers, tutor students, etc.

We all know what we consider too much. My point though, is that I wouldn't want to be looked upon as punching a virtual time clock, regardless of the exigencies of the job. If the position is hourly, then it's a different thing all together.

As a teacher, I put in any hours required to get my job done to the best of my ability for my students. Indeed, I spent at least $100 out of pocket so they had a website for homework and links pages that could help them excel. I also had a games page to prepare for tests from vocabulary to concepts to essay practice. Another for online quizzes. In the past 3 years much more is 'out there' for lower costs and most schools have become better at providing better sites themselves, without requiring that everything be written in html or another code. Teachers don't have time for that, at least most don't. I wanted to be able to write, upload and download, and scan information that would make it easier for students and parents.

Now, my 'started at minimum wage' now at $10 an hour job? I work 'on the clock.' I don't work during breaks, which I always take, nor before or after punching in. It's wrong from the get go, as there are people that this is their sole source of income and if others start working or making things 'better' off the clock, it would become expected.

Professional isn't a matter of degrees, to some measure it's a position that not 'anyone' could walk into and perform successfully. It also is a position that makes beyond a living wage, because of the first clause. ;)

[jimnyc]

As a teacher, I put in any hours required to get my job done to the best of my ability for my students. Indeed, I spent at least $100 out of pocket so they had a website for homework and links pages that could help them excel. I also had a games page to prepare for tests from vocabulary to concepts to essay practice. Another for online quizzes. In the past 3 years much more is 'out there' for lower costs and most schools have become better at providing better sites themselves, without requiring that everything be written in html or another code. Teachers don't have time for that, at least most don't. I wanted to be able to write, upload and download, and scan information that would make it easier for students and parents.

Can you please move into my district? :)

I think things like that should be used much more often, and the teachers paid for their efforts. I would love that much of what is going on in classrooms be available to parents on a website. Homework, quizzes, email contact and other things that will help a parent be on the same page as the teacher and get the best out of the students. And whether it's salary or hourly, I have no issue in seeing the teacher get rewarded for the extra work it would involve.

[Kathianne]

Can you please move into my district? :)

I think things like that should be used much more often, and the teachers paid for their efforts. I would love that much of what is going on in classrooms be available to parents on a website. Homework, quizzes, email contact and other things that will help a parent be on the same page as the teacher and get the best out of the students. And whether it's salary or hourly, I have no issue in seeing the teacher get rewarded for the extra work it would involve.

Thanks Jim! They got an opening? LOL! I think public school teachers in the US are paid fairly. Should they have to pay out-of-pocket costs to provide the best tools for students? No. Many do, but they should be rewarded by parent recognition and submission for awards which mean more than being put on a clock.

Being in process of applying at public schools, the average I'd make if hired would be about $58k, without any extra-curricular, which is required. That would add at least $2600 a year. I think that's at least a 'fair' salary. If I had to spend $100 of that for my kids, not a problem.

[tailfins]

It's always been my feeling that working "extra" hours without extra pay when necessary is one sign of a professional. Jobs with time clocks, whether actual or virtual, and unions, are generally indicia of non-professionals, or in some cases, professionals with union backing. All of my serious career jobs have entailed working late and even sometimes weekends when there was a big project deadline. Law and writing for publication were two such situations.

My husband works in IT, and he is on a call every fifth week, and he goes in once a month on Sunday morning, too. Both are necessary for the position for different reasons. He is highly skilled and very well paid, so we look on it as part of the price of having a really good job. There are limits, though, and if this became the norm, and he was, say, staying late every night, or going in every Sunday, he would be looking elsewhere for employment. My understanding is that teachers often work beyond the school day to grade papers, tutor students, etc.

We all know what we consider too much. My point though, is that I wouldn't want to be looked upon as punching a virtual time clock, regardless of the exigencies of the job. If the position is hourly, then it's a different thing all together.

We Aspies are NEVER considered professionals. We only get tolerated with our quirks when no one else can do the job, so why not do some price gouging of our own? Why "pay dues" when you never get to join the club? Many I know at support groups are on SSDI disability because they play "nice". My hourly rate keeps going up-up-up with my varied skill set, annually breaking six figures. I have especially seen manual software testers fall into this trap with 60+ hours a week and the more they are a good little doobie and never push back, the more gets dumped on them, all for free. I feel sorry for many manual testing groups since they become a dumping ground for "clerk-work" and or crap work.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Why would I? I know what he is.



When have I advocated otherwise.

Come on, you flip and flop like a fresh caught fish tossed onto the hot sand of a riverbank.
I've seen you try to argue 3 sides of an issue before.:laugh:

[fj1200]

... flip and flop...

Link please.