Does "gay" mean act like opposite sex?

[jimnyc]

Honest question! I know that gay means you like someone of the same sex. But why is it that so often we see gay folks dressing or acting the part of someone of the opposite sex? Magic Johnson's son recently came out as gay. Magic is a former star NBA player for those that don't know. Here is a picture of him on the town a few nights ago:

http://i.imgur.com/ZyTvLJq.jpg

So why the pocketbook? And the girls coat? and stockings? Look around at the video if you like, I assure you, he is more or less in drag. So my question is WHY?

(don't click "video", it's just a screenshot!)

[tailfins]

Honest question! I know that gay means you like someone of the same sex. But why is it that so often we see gay folks dressing or acting the part of someone of the opposite sex? Magic Johnson's son recently came out as gay. Magic is a former star NBA player for those that don't know. Here is a picture of him on the town a few nights ago:



So why the pocketbook? And the girls coat? and stockings? Look around at the video if you like, I assure you, he is more or less in drag. So my question is WHY?

(don't click "video", it's just a screenshot!)

Attending some Asperger support groups I know guys that prefer women but are gay because many American females are too unforgiving of impaired social skills. None of them act the opposite sex. I hate to imagine where I would be had I not visited Mexico when I was 10 and got treated like a normal person. It may just be an in-your-face kind of showing off. In the many times visiting a Latin American country, I have never felt out of place except when trying to earn money.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-9FdWmZqRQ

[Robert A Whit]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWww

[Noir]

If i memo right it goes something like this -

There are 4 factors of self

Gender Identity (Woman-genderqueer-man)
Gender Expression (Feminine - Androgynous - Masculine)
Biological sex (Female - Intersex - Male)
Sexual orientation. (Pansexual - Hetrosexual - Asexual)

Each of them are on a sliding scale, and all of them are independent.

Magic Johnsons son seems to fall under 'feminine male homosexual' is gender identity ihs unclear.

The truly odd thing about it all is our reaction to gender expression, is that we accept women as 'tom boys' without a second thought, if a woman wants to just slack about in jeans, do the yard work at the weekends, and watch the game with a beer on Sundays, cool, if a guy wants to wear lipstick, shock!

I think theres alot to be said for the quote that went something like 'You think a man dressed as a woman is derogatory, because you think being a woman is derogatory'.

[jimnyc]

Wearing jeans, yard work, drinking a beer - NOTHING like a man wearing lipstick! One is commonplace and something both sexes do so often, that it's not out of place. Men wearing lipstick, pocketbooks, stockings - VERY unusual and an extreme minority, unlike the examples you gave.

I don't think women are derogatory, not even close, so your quote sucks! Thinking someone who's brain is messed up to the point that they act and dress like the opposite sex, has nothing at all to do with what I think of the opposite sex. I LOVE women, in many ways, from lust to love and everything in between. But that hardly means I should/would like a man who tries to be a woman.

[tailfins]

Wearing jeans, yard work, drinking a beer - NOTHING like a man wearing lipstick! One is commonplace and something both sexes do so often, that it's not out of place. Men wearing lipstick, pocketbooks, stockings - VERY unusual and an extreme minority, unlike the examples you gave.

I don't think women are derogatory, not even close, so your quote sucks! Thinking someone who's brain is messed up to the point that they act and dress like the opposite sex, has nothing at all to do with what I think of the opposite sex. I LOVE women, in many ways, from lust to love and everything in between. But that hardly means I should/would like a man who tries to be a woman.

If you were in the Sing Sing Correctional Facility you might.

[Noir]

Wearing jeans, yard work, drinking a beer - NOTHING like a man wearing lipstick! One is commonplace and something both sexes do so often, that it's not out of place. Men wearing lipstick, pocketbooks, stockings - VERY unusual and an extreme minority, unlike the examples you gave.

But thats the whole point, women being 'tomboys' is considered normal, and 'nothing like' a man being more effeminate...


I don't think women are derogatory, not even close, so your quote sucks! Thinking someone who's brain is messed up to the point that they act and dress like the opposite sex, has nothing at all to do with what I think of the opposite sex. I LOVE women, in many ways, from lust to love and everything in between. But that hardly means I should/would like a man who tries to be a woman.

The quote doesn't suck, a man dressed as a woman faces more prejudice than a woman dressed manly. Why is that? Are all woman 'tomboys' brains 'messed up' because of the way they dress?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If i memo right it goes something like this -

There are 4 factors of self

Gender Identity (Woman-genderqueer-man)
Gender Expression (Feminine - Androgynous - Masculine)
Biological sex (Female - Intersex - Male)
Sexual orientation. (Pansexual - Hetrosexual - Asexual)



I think theres alot to be said for the quote that went something like 'You think a man dressed as a woman is derogatory, because you think being a woman is derogatory'.

A truly dumbass quote . Maybe in a very few cases would that statement be true. Most men think it derogatory simply because it is. Has nothing to do with thinking "being a woman" is derogatory. That is in the same boat as is -All men are dogs! Both untrue.
Any guy dressing like a woman has a mental problem but that does not translate into -- its really the problem of those that refuse to accept it as normal behavior.
Reality suxs for some people but trying to excuse them and their behavior by accusing others is pure crap.-Tyr

[Noir]

A truly dumbass quote . Maybe in a very few cases would that statement be true. Most men think it derogatory simply because it is. Has nothing to do with thinking "being a woman" is derogatory. That is in the same boat as is -All men are dogs! Both untrue.
Any guy dressing like a woman has a mental problem but that does not translate into -- its really the problem of those that refuse to accept it as normal behavior.
Reality suxs for some people but trying to excuse them and their behavior by accusing others is pure crap.-Tyr

So a guy dressing like a woman has mental issues.

What about a woman dressing as a guy? Same mental issues?

Also 'its derogatory because it is' is the reasoning of a child, not an actual reason.

[jimnyc]

But thats the whole point, women being 'tomboys' is considered normal, and 'nothing like' a man being more effeminate...

The actions that make a woman a tomboy are actions that are not unique to men, but not as many women get involved. Playing sports, drinking beer, yard work... Now DRESSING in clothing and makeup that ONLY women wear, that's totally different.


The quote doesn't suck, a man dressed as a woman faces more prejudice than a woman dressed manly. Why is that? Are all woman 'tomboys' brains 'messed up' because of the way they dress?

'You think a man dressed as a woman is derogatory, because you think being a woman is derogatory'.

I think a man dressed as a woman is gross, but whatever. But that in NO WAY at all means I think of women a certain way. It means I think of men who dress as women a certain way. No connection.

[jimnyc]

So a guy dressing like a woman has mental issues.

What about a woman dressing as a guy? Same mental issues?

Also 'its derogatory because it is' is the reasoning of a child, not an actual reason.

A woman wearing jeans, a NHL jersey and drinking beer isn't dressing as a guy.

If a woman goes to a wedding dressed in a tuxedo, while her partner wears a dress, then I would say the same thing.

[tailfins]

So a guy dressing like a woman has mental issues.

What about a woman dressing as a guy? Same mental issues?

Also 'its derogatory because it is' is the reasoning of a child, not an actual reason.

Don't you think a woman deserves a break? Do you REALLY expect her to wear a dress as she runs the sweeper or cleans the oven?

[Noir]

A woman wearing jeans, a NHL jersey and drinking beer isn't dressing as a guy.

If a woman goes to a wedding dressed in a tuxedo, while her partner wears a dress, then I would say the same thing.

So when Princess Diana wore a tux, mentally ill? Sick?

Again i think you're really missing the point that one, not both, are seen as normal, which makes no sense.

[jimnyc]

So when Princess Diana wore a tux, mentally ill? Sick?

Again i think you're really missing the point that one, not both, are seen as normal, which makes no sense.

I recently read that she dressed in drag once too, in order to go to a gay bar with her friends without being noticed!

But no, I don't think she was ill. She didn't try to marry someone in that outfit, she wasn't with a same sex partner walking down the road. While I don't like her fashion statement, she wasn't trying to be a man. So many today that wear the opposite sex clothing are transgenders and the 'other person' in a same sex relationship.

Men are expected to dress like men, boys like boys. Women are expected to dress like women, and girls like girls. Why don't more and more parents send their little boys to school in dresses? You're being purposely obtuse for the sake of an argument. I'm not saying that these people shouldn't be able to do what they do, but I'm trying to understand. I thought gay was about liking someone of the same sex, not liking someone of the same sex because I feel more like the opposite sex. That would be an entirely new element to add to the equation. And yes, if someone truly feels that they need to dress as the opposite sex as part of their relationship, then I think that there head got screwed on the wrong way somehow.

[DragonStryk72]

Honest question! I know that gay means you like someone of the same sex. But why is it that so often we see gay folks dressing or acting the part of someone of the opposite sex? Magic Johnson's son recently came out as gay. Magic is a former star NBA player for those that don't know. Here is a picture of him on the town a few nights ago:

http://i.imgur.com/ZyTvLJq.jpg

So why the pocketbook? And the girls coat? and stockings? Look around at the video if you like, I assure you, he is more or less in drag. So my question is WHY?

(don't click "video", it's just a screenshot!)

Nope, my dad still wears his yankees cap, flanel shirts, jeans, and work boots. That is not GAY, that's transvestite. What always bothers me is when someone comes out, and they stop talking like themselves, acting stereotypically gay, and raising their voice two octaves. That's not you getting in touch with who you really are, that's you approving a really horrible stereotype by becoming it.

[jimnyc]

Nope, my dad still wears his yankees cap, flanel shirts, jeans, and work boots. That is not GAY, that's transvestite. What always bothers me is when someone comes out, and they stop talking like themselves, acting stereotypically gay, and raising their voice two octaves. That's not you getting in touch with who you really are, that's you approving a really horrible stereotype by becoming it.

That makes sense. It just seemed like 2 totally different things to me, like transgendered and gay, not the same. I think "gay" or homosexual means you have an attraction to the same sex, not that in addition you therefore dress and/or act like the opposite sex as well.

[DragonStryk72]

If i memo right it goes something like this -

There are 4 factors of self

Gender Identity (Woman-genderqueer-man)
Gender Expression (Feminine - Androgynous - Masculine)
Biological sex (Female - Intersex - Male)
Sexual orientation. (Pansexual - Hetrosexual - Asexual)

Each of them are on a sliding scale, and all of them are independent.

Magic Johnsons son seems to fall under 'feminine male homosexual' is gender identity ihs unclear.

The truly odd thing about it all is our reaction to gender expression, is that we accept women as 'tom boys' without a second thought, if a woman wants to just slack about in jeans, do the yard work at the weekends, and watch the game with a beer on Sundays, cool, if a guy wants to wear lipstick, shock!

I think theres alot to be said for the quote that went something like 'You think a man dressed as a woman is derogatory, because you think being a woman is derogatory'.

Actually, we just think its ugly, and go look at that video for why. It isn't a matter of derogatory, we accept women dressing like men because it still looks good on them. But the guys who go over are generally wearing shoes that weren't designed for their feet, clothing designed for people who don't have a masculine facial structure, and so yeah, it looks like hell about 90% of the time.

Also, if they're oh so feminine, why is it almost always that they have to wear an outlandish dress? Last I checked, women still wear capri pants, jeans, blouses, and cardigans, so where is all the normal female clothing? Basically, these guys have picked the worst possible stereotype of how women dressed, then complain that the people who don't like it do so because of some form of misogyny.

[jimnyc]

Actually, we just think its ugly, and go look at that video for why. It isn't a matter of derogatory, we accept women dressing like men because it still looks good on them. But the guys who go over are generally wearing shoes that weren't designed for their feet, clothing designed for people who don't have a masculine facial structure, and so yeah, it looks like hell about 90% of the time.

Also, if they're oh so feminine, why is it almost always that they have to wear an outlandish dress? Last I checked, women still wear capri pants, jeans, blouses, and cardigans, so where is all the normal female clothing? Basically, these guys have picked the worst possible stereotype of how women dressed, then complain that the people who don't like it do so because of some form of misogyny.

True, didn't think of that either. Why not wear something womanly, but not ALWAYS a mink coat, stocking, skirts, hats... It's like some WANT to be noticed and WANT to be overtly dressed for attention.

[tailfins]

True, didn't think of that either. Why not wear something womanly, but not ALWAYS a mink coat, stocking, skirts, hats... It's like some WANT to be noticed and WANT to be overtly dressed for attention.

It's because they want to make a statement: "We're here; we're queer; and we're in your face."

[Syrenn]

clothing is just fashion.... people wear what is comfortable or to make "fashion statements"

[jimnyc]

clothing is just fashion.... people wear what is comfortable or to make "fashion statements"

But you have to admit - probably more than 99% of these statements is the person wearing gender specific attire. If you go out and dress like a woman (as a man of course), and then walk through Hollywood, you are WANTING to be seen as dressing like a gender confused person.

[Syrenn]

But you have to admit - probably more than 99% of these statements is the person wearing gender specific attire. If you go out and dress like a woman (as a man of course), and then walk through Hollywood, you are WANTING to be seen as dressing like a gender confused person.


expect for bras... i don't think clothing is very gender specific.


when it comes to gay men dressing like magic johnsons some...it feel its more as in in your face, fuck you im GAY statement.... That "feeling" of flaunting gets to be a habit and enjoyable on some levels.

men wore fur coats like that in the early part of the century ...that is if they could afford it. Mens pantyhose are a new and upcoming craze in europe.... Man bags have been around for a very long time...

[jimnyc]

expect for bras... i don't think clothing is very gender specific.

Skirts, dresses, stockings, satin type gloves, lipstick, many style earrings, many style hats... I should have specified attire, the entire ensemble. The majority of these things were designed for women and targeted to women when sold.


when it comes to gay men dressing like magic johnsons some...it feel its more as in in your face, fuck you im GAY statement.... That "feeling" of flaunting gets to be a habit and enjoyable on some levels.

men wore fur coats like that in the early part of the century ...that is if they could afford it. Mens pantyhose are a new and upcoming craze in europe.... Man bags have been around for a very long time...

I remember Dennis Rodman used to wear fur coats. He also wore a wedding dress. He also just went to North Korea to play nice. Just sayin'! LOL

And men wear pantyhose that aren't gay, or transgendered or whatever? Regular men, if that's a term? I've seen the man bag things, the ones going around the waist? They're gay! :poke:

[Syrenn]

Skirts, dresses, stockings, satin type gloves, lipstick, many style earrings, many style hats... I should have specified attire, the entire ensemble. The majority of these things were designed for women and targeted to women when sold.



I remember Dennis Rodman used to wear fur coats. He also wore a wedding dress. He also just went to North Korea to play nice. Just sayin'! LOL

And men wear pantyhose that aren't gay, or transgendered or whatever? Regular men, if that's a term? I've seen the man bag things, the ones going around the waist? They're gay! :poke:

i posted about the mantyhose didnt i?

men in furs have been around for a long time... lol When i think men in furs i dont so much think gay as i do pimp.

http://www.overland.com/Products/Coats---Jackets-415/Fur-Coats--7100/Mens-Fur-Coats-490/Browse.aspx
http://www.furoutlet.com/engine.asp?Category=MENS-FUR-COATS


man bags.... a purse by any other name is still a purse...

http://www.coach.com/online/handbags/-men_messengerbags-us-us-86-en
http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/shop/category/messenger
http://www.ghurka.com/Gearpacks-s/1860.htm
http://www.ghurka.com/Messenger-Bags-s/1861.htm

[jimnyc]

i posted about the mantyhose didnt i?

men in furs have been around for a long time... lol When i think men in furs i dont so much think gay as i do pimp.

http://www.overland.com/Products/Coats---Jackets-415/Fur-Coats--7100/Mens-Fur-Coats-490/Browse.aspx
http://www.furoutlet.com/engine.asp?Category=MENS-FUR-COATS

True, or Kramer in the Seinfeld episode!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/NqUHRgleRk0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


man bags.... a purse by any other name is still a purse...

http://www.coach.com/online/handbags/-men_messengerbags-us-us-86-en
http://www.timbuk2.com/tb2/shop/category/messenger
http://www.ghurka.com/Gearpacks-s/1860.htm
http://www.ghurka.com/Messenger-Bags-s/1861.htm

All gay!! :lol:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So a guy dressing like a woman has mental issues.

What about a woman dressing as a guy? Same mental issues?

Also 'its derogatory because it is' is the reasoning of a child, not an actual reason.

Yes the guy has mental issues if dressing like a woman except when its done as acting as an actor.. Good to see that you have backed off it being derogatory to women for a heterosexual guy to think that male freaks pretending to be female are freaky. Which is no different than my thinking a man that beats/abuses women is a cowardly punk deserving a damn good ass stomping. I have one older and three younger sisters all of which are very pretty. Only my older sister picked guys that were not losers,idiots or scum. I had to beat hell out of over a dozen guys for their stupidity in how they tried to treat my sisters during the dating years . I even had to stomp one husband for hitting my sister! He was lucky I didn't break him up worse. Was not me being a bully , the dude stood 6'4" and outweighed me almost a hundred pounds. He was not fat either. He had a really bad temper , which so did I back then, so I sympathized with him on that. I had warned him twice before to never hit my sis. I don't give third warnings ,ever! Beat him unconscious and left him laying. His uncle was the chief of police in my home town. I expected to be arrested but that never happened because he was too ashamed of being busted up so damn badly by such a little fellow that he refused to press charges!:laugh:

If anything I am old school in how I view and believe women are to be treated. A woman is a lady until she proves that she is not! A man is not and never can be a lady. Simple really.The ones that try to be are either insane or just massively confused. Neither highly ffed up state is to be approved of or recommended IMHO.-Tyr

[tailfins]

expect for bras... i don't think clothing is very gender specific.


when it comes to gay men dressing like magic johnsons some...it feel its more as in in your face, fuck you im GAY statement.... That "feeling" of flaunting gets to be a habit and enjoyable on some levels.

men wore fur coats like that in the early part of the century ...that is if they could afford it. Mens pantyhose are a new and upcoming craze in europe.... Man bags have been around for a very long time...


Now it means the opposite with Mackelmore. You get bonus points if you know who Mackelmore is.

[Syrenn]

Ben Haggerty :dunno:

[Noir]

Yes the guy has mental issues if dressing like a woman except when its done as acting as an actor.. Good to see that you have backed off it being derogatory to women for a heterosexual guy to think that male freaks pretending to be female are freaky. Which is no different than my thinking a man that beats/abuses women is a cowardly punk deserving a damn good ass stomping. I have one older and three younger sisters all of which are very pretty. Only my older sister picked guys that were not losers,idiots or scum. I had to beat hell out of over a dozen guys for their stupidity in how they tried to treat my sisters during the dating years . I even had to stomp one husband for hitting my sister! He was lucky I didn't break him up worse. Was not me being a bully , the dude stood 6'4" and outweighed me almost a hundred pounds. He was not fat either. He had a really bad temper , which so did I back then, so I sympathized with him on that. I had warned him twice before to never hit my sis. I don't give third warnings ,ever! Beat him unconscious and left him laying. His uncle was the chief of police in my home town. I expected to be arrested but that never happened because he was too ashamed of being busted up so damn badly by such a little fellow that he refused to press charges!:laugh:

If anything I am old school in how I view and believe women are to be treated. A woman is a lady until she proves that she is not! A man is not and never can be a lady. Simple really.The ones that try to be are either insane or just massively confused. Neither highly ffed up state is to be approved of or recommended IMHO.-Tyr

Impressive that such a long post would have so little to do with mine.

Leaving the 'i can beat up big men' aside, if a man dressed as a woman is 'mentally ill' is not a woman dressed like a man equally ill?

[Noir]

Actually, we just think its ugly, and go look at that video for why. It isn't a matter of derogatory, we accept women dressing like men because it still looks good on them. But the guys who go over are generally wearing shoes that weren't designed for their feet, clothing designed for people who don't have a masculine facial structure, and so yeah, it looks like hell about 90% of the time.

Also, if they're oh so feminine, why is it almost always that they have to wear an outlandish dress? Last I checked, women still wear capri pants, jeans, blouses, and cardigans, so where is all the normal female clothing? Basically, these guys have picked the worst possible stereotype of how women dressed, then complain that the people who don't like it do so because of some form of misogyny.

What you think is ugly is none the matter, people here are claiming that this 'ugliness' is a mental illness.

The idea that man can have such prejudice and ill will cast towards them because 'hey i don't think he looks good' is beyond pathetic. It reminds me of the comments that were made in a previous thread about tattoos. Sure some people think they're ugly, don't like them etc, but to use them as a gauge of character is awful.

[Noir]

I recently read that she dressed in drag once too, in order to go to a gay bar with her friends without being noticed!

But no, I don't think she was ill. She didn't try to marry someone in that outfit, she wasn't with a same sex partner walking down the road. While I don't like her fashion statement, she wasn't trying to be a man. So many today that wear the opposite sex clothing are transgenders and the 'other person' in a same sex relationship.

So women are fine to dress and act like men, except for during weddings? Are there any other instances/exceptions? Also what about men who wear kilts? I've been to plenty of events with men wearing skirts, but not an eyelid was battered.

At some point you must recognise that your basis of judgement on this stems only from what you have been told is acceptable and what isn't.


Men are expected to dress like men, boys like boys. Women are expected to dress like women, and girls like girls. Why don't more and more parents send their little boys to school in dresses? You're being purposely obtuse for the sake of an argument. I'm not saying that these people shouldn't be able to do what they do, but I'm trying to understand. I thought gay was about liking someone of the same sex, not liking someone of the same sex because I feel more like the opposite sex. That would be an entirely new element to add to the equation. And yes, if someone truly feels that they need to dress as the opposite sex as part of their relationship, then I think that there head got screwed on the wrong way somehow.

As i posed previously, orientation and expression are independent.

As for the 'men are expected...women are expected...' Thats straight out of the handbook of prejudice. Maybe these expectations are too limited in their scope.

There was a great dialog by a guy called Simon Amstell that went -

&ldquo;It still upsets me to hear even young, trendy couples saying things like

*We&rsquo;re having a baby, but we don&rsquo;t know the gender, so we don&rsquo;t know whether to paint the nursery blue or pink. We might go for yellow, just to be safe.*

What is the danger here?! Go blue! Go nuts!

*But what if it&rsquo;s a girl!? We don&rsquo;t want her to grow up to be Bruce Willis!*

And then they have the baby and these sentences pour out of them

*Oh, we&rsquo;ve had a girl, but she&rsquo;s quite a tomboy.*

Tomboy? What is this word? Maybe your idea of what a girl is supposed to be is quite restrictive.

*Oh, we&rsquo;ve have a boy but he&rsquo;s playing with dolls.*

Oh god! Then put him back in!?&rdquo;

[jimnyc]

if a man dressed as a woman is 'mentally ill' is not a woman dressed like a man equally ill?

Only if truly equivalent. A lot of these men, like Dragon stated, are doing so as like transvestites, truly wearing everything and looking to "be" a female. The examples thus far about women wearing mens clothing aren't even remotely the same. If a woman went out, and literally tried to "be" a man while with her girlfriend, I would agree. Dressing as a tomboy is NOT the same. Wearing a tux as a princess for events is not the same.

[jimnyc]

As i posed previously, orientation and expression are independent

Yes, and that's what I'm trying to say too. Magic Johnsons kid isn't just gay, and isn't just wearing some girls clothes - he's expressing himself as a woman. The Princess Diana example you gave, is her making a fashion statement, but she's not making an expression that she is a guy.

Wearing a kilt is ok. Wear the kilt, and panties and stockings, and lipstick, and talk like a gal - you have issues. Anyone can see the difference.

[DragonStryk72]

What never made sense to me is why they always seem to choose really horrible women's clothing. Like, okay, yeah, you wanna make a statement, but does it always have to be "fashion victim"? I mean, seriously, just go to a plus size store if you need to for clothing that is actually the appropriate size. But no, it's always these really outlandish styles that makes you look like a freak.

Okay, an example is necessary here: On Glee, Kurt Hummel is gay, and somewhat effeminate, and while he does have a tendency to wear some women's clothing, he confines it to things such as sweaters that match his pants, and other things that at least go well together.

[jimnyc]

^^ Had not thought of that. I'm not assuming that gay people would be rich, but still, why wear the overly dramatic things? It reminds me of Elton John. I think someone, a guy, can dress in an effeminate manner without necessarily trying to be a woman.

[cadet]

Noir, men and women are different.
http://drjamesdobson.org/Solid-Answers/Answers?a=ff773023-2693-410d-b9e1-662f6985be4e
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3002946.stm