So which do you think is worse...

[Noir]

Giving money to known and suspected pedophiles so they go quietly, or lying about giving money to known and suspected pedophiles so they go quietly?


Questioned at the time about the news that one particularly notorious pedophile cleric had been given a “payoff” to leave the priesthood, Cardinal Dolan, then the archbishop, responded that such an inference was “false, preposterous and unjust.”

But a document unearthed during bankruptcy proceedings for the Archdiocese of Milwaukee and made public by victims’ advocates reveals that the archdiocese did make such payments to multiple accused priests to encourage them to seek dismissal, thereby allowing the church to remove them from the payroll.

A spokesman for the archdiocese confirmed on Wednesday that payments of as much as $20,000 were made to “a handful” of accused priests “as a motivation” not to contest being defrocked. The process, known as “laicization,” is a formal church juridical procedure that requires Vatican approval, and can take far longer if the priest objects.

“It was a way to provide an incentive to go the voluntary route and make it happen quickly, and ultimately cost less,” said Jerry Topczewski, the spokesman for the archdiocese. “Their cooperation made the process a lot more expeditious.”

Cardinal Dolan, who is president of the national bishops’ conference and fast becoming the nation’s most high-profile Roman Catholic cleric, did not respond to several requests for comment.

Experts in the Catholic Church’s response to sexual abuse say that payouts to dismissed priests are not uncommon.

The first known payment in Milwaukee was to Franklyn Becker, a former priest with many victims. Cardinal Dolan said in response to a reporter’s question at the time that the payment was “an act of charity,” so that Mr. Becker could pay for health insurance.

According to church documents, Mr. Becker was accused of abusing at least 10 minors, and given a diagnosis of pedophilia in 1983. The church paid more than $16 million to settle lawsuits involving him and one other priest.

inb4 'typical Noir having a go at Catholics / Christians' >,>

[aboutime]

Sounds like a WIN-WIN for somebody. Are you out of work Noir?

[Noir]

Sounds like a WIN-WIN for somebody. Are you out of work Noir?

Well was certainly win-win for priests who liked to molest and rape children.

Lets keep the discussion on the victims, the church, and Mr Dolan, rather than lil ol me.

[aboutime]

Well was certainly win-win for priests who liked to molest and rape children.

Lets keep the discussion on the victims, the church, and Mr Dolan, rather than lil ol me.


Why ask those questions at all Noir? It would have been much easier for you to just start a thread titled: "WHY I HATE CATHOLICS."

[Noir]

Why ask those questions at all Noir? It would have been much easier for you to just start a thread titled: "WHY I HATE CATHOLICS."

No, i hate people who give back handers to child rapists so they leave as quickly and quietly as possible, regardless of their religion or affiliation. Don't you too?

[Drummond]

Actually, I think you got it right the first time, with ...


'typical Noir having a go at Catholics / Christians'.... in your first post.

The Catholic Church has come clean about its failings in the past. These days, the general public is aware of those failings. This makes what you're doing now just a gratuitous 'bashing' exercise.

How old is this, anyway ? Something tells me you're not reporting a 'breaking news story' ...

[Kathianne]

A priest that doesn't deny or condone what has caused the 'worst crisis' in the Church. He puts it into a perspective though, individuals vs. Church:


http://youtu.be/OE00MMOh_z0


Fr. Barron is a world renown theologian, whom I happened to have been friends with back when he was in high school. His brother, John also worked in the same bookstore which is when we all became friends. I remember when Bob got 'hooked' on St. Augustine as a freshman in high school. I remember his telling some of us that he'd had a calling to be a priest the summer after his freshman year. He was and is, wickedly brilliant. He's only 53, but seriously, he could be a Pope in the future. During the recent election of the Pope, Fr. Barron was one of the 'commentators' in Rome for NBC news.

He's gotten some notice by a few 'movers' in the Church:


http://youtu.be/TamB2cYlY-s


For anyone interested in what the Church is really like today, he's recently written a book and there's a 10 disc DVD that's been televised on PBS:

http://www.suntimes.com/entertainment/television/8035638-421/seeing-is-believing-on-catholicism.html

(Notice the disclaimer, his brother, John, was the publisher of the Sun-Times when this review was written.)

[Noir]

Actually, I think you got it right the first time, with ...

.... in your first post.

Who cares about the religious aspect, not important, pretend the organisation is a secular school, and Dolan's the Headmaster, and its child raping teachers that hace been getting payoffs. For me thats exactly as bad, if its not for you (or anyone else) then you're bap's not in order.


The Catholic Church has come clean about its failings in the past. These days, the general public is aware of those failings. This makes what you're doing now just a gratuitous 'bashing' exercise.

How old is this, anyway ? Something tells me you're not reporting a 'breaking news story' ...

This story came to light last year.

[Drummond]

Who cares about the religious aspect, not important, pretend the organisation is a secular school, and Dolan's the Headmaster, and its child raping teachers that hace been getting payoffs. For me thats exactly as bad, if its not for you (or anyone else) then you're bap's not in order.


This story came to light last year.

Well, Noir, I quoted YOU when I quoted the apparent religious aspect.

And, yes, I checked your story. Reports date back to May last year on this, don't they ? It all came to light, was an issue receiving attention, THEN. Why bring it up now ?

[Noir, British Summertime notwithstanding, it's extremely late for both of us. I intend to revisit this thread tomorrow]

[Noir]

Well, Noir, I quoted YOU when I quoted the apparent religious aspect.

And, yes, I checked your story. Reports date back to May last year on this, don't they ? It all came to light, was an issue receiving attention, THEN. Why bring it up now ?

[Noir, British Summertime notwithstanding, it's extremely late for both of us. I intend to revisit this thread tomorrow]

Yeah, you mean the sarcastic prediction i tacked onto the OP, whereby the actual content of the story would be ignored in favour of comments about me... funny how i saw that coming.

As for why bring it up now - i have only just (this very night) been made aware of this, and wanted to share with disgust (but then people would rather be disgusted with me, go figure.)

[gabosaurus]

No, i hate people who give back handers to child rapists so they leave as quickly and quietly as possible, regardless of their religion or affiliation. Don't you too?

Jerry Sandusky molested a ton of children and is (rightly) portrayed as one of the most evil men on the face of the earth.

Various Catholic priests do the same thing and their sins are swept under the rug for decades. Even now, you don't see them portrayed in the same light as other pedophiles.

[Kathianne]

Jerry Sandusky molested a ton of children and is (rightly) portrayed as one of the most evil men on the face of the earth.

Various Catholic priests do the same thing and their sins are swept under the rug for decades. Even now, you don't see them portrayed in the same light as other pedophiles.

Really? Haven't read the thread, eh?

[gabosaurus]

I did read it. Did I miss something?

[Kathianne]

I did read it. Did I miss something?

Well one could go with the thread in general. Then again, one could look at post #7 from a Catholic perspective. Then again, one could just keep repeating what they want to call 'truth.'

For those that want to a preview at the series that has been broadcast on PBS, a 10 disc set, here's the preview:



http://youtu.be/yXz7CiIovJ8


It's subtitled in another language. Polish? Croation? The audio is English. The book is also 10 chapters, pretty much the same message as the DVD set from my understanding, though the DVD gives the sound, voice, of the people and a more whole picture of the art and places.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Jerry Sandusky molested a ton of children and is (rightly) portrayed as one of the most evil men on the face of the earth.

Various Catholic priests do the same thing and their sins are swept under the rug for decades. Even now, you don't see them portrayed in the same light as other pedophiles.

like Mohammed?

[Kathianne]

Here's a discussion of the series:


http://youtu.be/aiXeIHySjLY

[Marcus Aurelius]

Question for Noir...

What percentage of Catholic priests rape and molest children?

100%
90%
75%
50%
25%
5%
1%

[revelarts]

All due respect i don't think i heard about the pay off story.

and i just can never firgure out why these preist aren't under the jails. That really pisses me off. Statue of limitations on child rape? really?.
Typically these guys don't stop. I'm sure if some people looked theyed find more than a few less than 10 year old cases.
I can understand not wanting people to talk about it "all the time" but Man, these guys just seem to be getting away with murder , asking them to leave just seems tame. paying them off IMO is criminal.

Kath, The Comments by the Priest were interesting and when talking about the RC pedo situation I understand it in the context of "some priest and some bishops" always. I agree with that.
I think Many, probably not all, outsiders think of it in that way as well.


But all of Fox news is... ALL of MSNBC is... All native americans are... All Muslims are... All Protestants Are...
it's a BS easy way to not think, but easy to fall into when your an outsider and unfamiliar with a group. And don't take the time to think of others as human beings like yourself.


The thing that bugs me about the story Noir posted and i think MAYBE what some of the people who the preist mentioned left the Church over is that.
OK the Church KNOWS that these guys were/are pedos but they are going to allow Church politics to run its course inspite of the ADMITTED horrors of the acts.

you know my frustration with the republicans and dems on following the law and constitution.

Here we are talking about a Church, said to be run by disciples of Jesus Christ, who want to take the time to run it by the archdiocese, church protocol, get approvals and etc etc ...well we can't just defrock they might protest and it will be longer process...

BS BS BS, SOMEBODY in the church hierarchy or laity can defrock and dismiss the SOBs and GIVe states evidence to the courts. Even if you have to MAKE up some new rules. this , as the priest said is extraordinary. These are not cases of priest that have their hands in the collection plate stuff.
sorry of that sounds to harsh and i hurt some RCChurch members feelings but as many have told me over terrorist, tell it to the victims.
How long do you think Jesus would take to KICK those prevs out? And their covers. Would he have dragged it out over almost a decade?

I know you've got issue with protestants , but i know in decent protestant church when certain criminal acts are uncovered those JOKERS are DONE quickly. In protestant churches where it's not handled but covered. the decent people leave and ... iv'e seen this... the church almost becomes a cult. with a corrupt minister lording it over a misguidedly loyal group of people.

post to long, i'm done.

[Kathianne]

All due respect i don't think i heard about the pay off story.

and i just can never firgure out why these preist aren't under the jails. That really pisses me off. Statue of limitations on child rape? really?.
Typically these guys don't stop. I'm sure if some people looked theyed find more than a few less than 10 year old cases.
I can understand not wanting people to talk about it "all the time" but Man, these guys just seem to be getting away with murder , asking them to leave just seems tame. paying them off IMO is criminal.

Kath, The Comments by the Priest were interesting and when talking about the RC pedo situation I understand it in the context of "some priest and some bishops" always. I agree with that.
I think Many, probably not all, outsiders think of it in that way as well.


But all of Fox news is... ALL of MSNBC is... All native americans are... All Muslims are... All Protestants Are...
it's a BS easy way to not think, but easy to fall into when your an outsider and unfamiliar with a group. And don't take the time to think of others as human beings like yourself.


The thing that bugs me about the story Noir posted and i think MAYBE what some of the people who the preist mentioned left the Church over is that.
OK the Church KNOWS that these guys were/are pedos but they are going to allow Church politics to run its course inspite of the ADMITTED horrors of the acts.

you know my frustration with the republicans and dems on following the law and constitution.

Here we are talking about a Church, said to be run by disciple of Jesus Christ who take the time to run it the archdichese and get approvals and etc etc well we can't just defrock they might protest and it will be longger

BS BS BS, SOMEBODY in the church hierarchy or laity can defrock and dismiss the SOBs and GIVe states evidence to the courts. Even if you have to MAKE up some new rules. this , as the priest said is extraordinary. These are not cases of priest that have their hands in the collection plate stuff.
sorry of that sounds to harsh but as many have told me over terrorist, tell it to the victims.
How long do you think Jesus would take to KICK those prevs out? And their covers. Would he have dragged it out over almost a decade?

I know you've got issue with protestants , but i know in decent protestant church when certain criminal acts are uncovered those JOKERS are DONE quickly. In protest churches where it's not handle the decent people leave and ... iv'e seen this... the church almost becomes a cult. with a corrupt minister lording it over a misguidedly loyal group of people.

post to long, i'm done.

I do understand where YOU are coming from, we don't disagree on the gist of the matter. However, many have been jailed, not as many as should have been. I hope their day is coming. Look at this google search that goes on and one though:

http://www.google.com/search?q=pedophile+priest+jailed&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Noir]

Question for Noir...

What percentage of Catholic priests rape and molest children?

100%
90%
75%
50%
25%
5%
1%

It is impossible to know how many, but analysis of the stats looks something like this....


In the United States the 2004 John Jay Report commissioned and funded by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) was based on volunteer surveys completed by the Roman Catholic dioceses in the United States. The 2004 John Jay Report was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002.[59]

The 4,392 priests who were accused amount to approximately 4% of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#section_3

[Kathianne]

No denigrating the real offenders, but there is a serious problem of 'follow the money.':

':

http://www.catholicleague.org/bogus-charges-against-priests-abound/

[jimnyc]

It is impossible to know how many, but analysis of the stats looks something like this....



http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#section_3


In the United States the 2004 John Jay Report commissioned and funded by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) was based on volunteer surveys completed by the Roman Catholic dioceses in the United States. The 2004 John Jay Report was based on a study of 10,667 allegations against 4,392 priests accused of engaging in sexual abuse of a minor between 1950 and 2002.[59]

The 4,392 priests who were accused amount to approximately 4% of the 109,694 priests in active ministry during that time.

It should be ZERO. Whether a part of a religion or not, they should be found and prosecuted. I don't know why anyone would cover.... But my next question is - do 109,000 people over a 50 year period speak for the entire Catholic Church and parishioners, now over 2 billion?

[revelarts]

No denigrating the real offenders, but there is a serious problem of 'follow the money.':

':

http://www.catholicleague.org/bogus-charges-against-priests-abound/

I'm sure there are more than a few cases of this.

At my old Church our pastor was accused of embelzzing. it was investigated and after about 2 month of re-checking the books it was determined that there were NO missing funds. ever. But by that time there was such harsh feelings over the matter that the pastor left town to head another church. a sad loss all around, he's really decent guy.

But how to you defend against sexual accusations? And how do you continue after they've been falsely made.

[Kathianne]

I'm sure there are more than a few cases of this.

At my old Church our pastor was accused of embelzzing. it was investigated and after about 2 month of re-checking the books it was determined that there were NO missing funds. ever. But by that time there was such harsh feelings over the matter that the pastor left town to head another church. a sad loss all around, he's really decent guy.

But how to you defend against sexual accusations? And how do you continue after they've been falsely made.

I can't say that it's happened to churches I've been affiliated with, TG. However, what I've heard of is basically the same as your minister, move to a new parish or take a non-parish role with the diocese.

[aboutime]

No, i hate people who give back handers to child rapists so they leave as quickly and quietly as possible, regardless of their religion or affiliation. Don't you too?


Nice deflection and non-answer, making up another excuse to avoid telling us your real feelings about anything Catholic.
By the way. I do not HATE. In fact. I don't, won't and can't hate anyone.
I learned a long time ago. When you hate. You become what you hate eventually.
Of course. Since you are perfect, and have never sinned. You wouldn't understand that theory.

[gabosaurus]

Question for Marcus...

What percentage of Muslims are terrorists or extremists?

100%
90%
75%
50%
25%
5%
1%

Remember, there are more than a billion Muslims out there.

[revelarts]

Question for Marcus...

What percentage of Muslims are terrorists or extremists?

100%
90%
75%
50%
25%
5%
1%

Remember, there are more than a billion Muslims out there.

That's a great question for a few people here.

[Drummond]

That's a great question for a few people here.

.... quite the diversion ...

.. but I'll bite.

Add up all those who perpetrated 9/11. Add 7/7, the Atocha station attack in Spain, Bali, the Achille Lauro, the Taliban, Hamas, all those incarcerated in Gitmo ... and ask yourself what percentage of the total it took to commit all of those acts, or be the terrorists you'd NEED to be, to be included.

Ask yourself, additionally:-

1. How many of those 'extremists' it would take to run a handful of Jihadist websites, sites designed to gain recruits ?

2. How many Muslim clerics preach a Jihadist message across the world ?

3. How many ran the terrorist camps in Afghanistan, pre-invasion ?

4. How many were active in Iraq, fighting American troops, planting bombs, ambushing, planting IED's ?

5. How many it would take - if or when they get their hands on them - to plant WMD's capable of destroying cities ?

Add all of them up ... and in percentage terms, it might be low. However, the Jihadist, terrorist phenomenon is WORLDWIDE and involves THOUSANDS, with an indeterminate number to be recruited in the future.

Draw a disparaging cartoon of Mohammed. Call a teddy bear Mohammed. Publicly burn a Koran. How many take to the streets, sometimes protesting, sometimes threatening death, sometimes COMMITTING MURDER. Such things can create worldwide savagery. These are not isolated incidents, far from it. In percentage terms ....

... BUT DOES THAT MEAN THAT ALL ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS DISMISSABLE AS 'MINOR' ?? ON SEPTEMBER 12TH 2001, DID AMERICANS CONSIDER AL QAEDA'S ATTACKS 'MINOR' ? HARDLY !

But perhaps you would like to think so, for the sake of some comforting propaganda ?

So why not be dismissive of it all, never recognising the major issue Islamic terrorism really is ? After all .. if terrorists committed 9/11 attacks against EVERY major American city ... hey ... would that add up to one percent of the total Muslims in the world ? With EVERY major city attacked, who, then, would STILL want to be an apologist for Islam ???

[aboutime]

.... quite the diversion ...

.. but I'll bite.

Add up all those who perpetrated 9/11. Add 7/7, the Atocha station attack in Spain, Bali, the Achille Lauro, the Taliban, Hamas, all those incarcerated in Gitmo ... and ask yourself what percentage of the total it took to commit all of those acts, or be the terrorists you'd NEED to be, to be included.

Ask yourself, additionally:-

1. How many of those 'extremists' it would take to run a handful of Jihadist websites, sites designed to gain recruits ?

2. How many Muslim clerics preach a Jihadist message across the world ?

3. How many ran the terrorist camps in Afghanistan, pre-invasion ?

4. How many were active in Iraq, fighting American troops, planting bombs, ambushing, planting IED's ?

5. How many it would take - if or when they get their hands on them - to plant WMD's capable of destroying cities ?

Add all of them up ... and in percentage terms, it might be low. However, the Jihadist, terrorist phenomenon is WORLDWIDE and involves THOUSANDS, with an indeterminate number to be recruited in the future.

Draw a disparaging cartoon of Mohammed. Call a teddy bear Mohammed. Publicly burn a Koran. How many take to the streets, sometimes protesting, sometimes threatening death, sometimes COMMITTING MURDER. Such things can create worldwide savagery. These are not isolated incidents, far from it. In percentage terms ....

... BUT DOES THAT MEAN THAT ALL ISLAMIC TERRORISM IS DISMISSABLE AS 'MINOR' ?? ON SEPTEMBER 12TH 2001, DID AMERICANS CONSIDER AL QAEDA'S ATTACKS 'MINOR' ? HARDLY !

But perhaps you would like to think so, for the sake of some comforting propaganda ?

So why not be dismissive of it all, never recognising the major issue Islamic terrorism really is ? After all .. if terrorists committed 9/11 attacks against EVERY major American city ... hey ... would that add up to one percent of the total Muslims in the world ? With EVERY major city attacked, who, then, would STILL want to be an apologist for Islam ???


Sir Drummond. After reading so much of this, and attempting to remain out of the conversation as those who claim to have me as their Targeted IGNORE member.
I now have little doubt, and I am nearly fully convinced. Those who need to make such excuses, and argue about defending the enemies of the West...namely the U.S.A. and G.B. as well as Israel..like jafar, and Noir for starters. Who seem able to convince members like Gabby to follow their propaganda so much. I have little doubt how easily any Obama follower, like Gabby could be convinced, threatened, and brainwashed into becoming part of those who wish to destroy America...from within.
As I have repeatedly said. The EASILY-LED, who follow Obama, and swear to obey the Democrat threats of Racist, Hatred if anyone dares to disagree...are the biggest threats to our Nation(s).
And their numbers are proving it.