Bullying

[jimnyc]

Through discussions with a counselor, my son told us yesterday that he is being bullied, but doesn't really want to talk about it. I wanted specifics while he was speaking in general. The only instance he could speak specifically about was a bunch of kids hitting him with plastic made bracelets. He wouldn't say why, but said he took the one kids bracelet, broke it in half and tossed it out the window.

Regardless of the severity, he was obviously a little emotional speaking about the issue, hence him avoiding specifics. The counselor seemed very concerned as well. Apparently she knew for a few weeks of his feelings, but promised she wouldn't discuss it with us. She got his permission in front of us yesterday and told us his feelings. For whatever reason, he was nervous about telling us.

But I feel helpless once again. I sat my son down for like an hour today, gave him a ton of advice and made it very clear to him that I am ALWAYS here for him to talk to, will always support him and he need just ask if he needs help. Of course I gave him advice on how to handle idiots as well.

I'd like to beat the kids up if I could, but wouldn't know who they are. Also, I think a 44yr old man beating up a 7th grader may "be frowned upon in this establishment".

He doesn't want staff involved and was very adamant about that. Hell, to be honest, I'm not even sure yet if certain kids are hitting him, or just being mean and poking at him non-stop. :poke:

Kath? Gabs? Anyone? Anyone have resources you can read on how to deal with these types of things? There's "ignore them" and there's "kick his ass", and I don't think either is the real answer.

[Syrenn]

there is.... make the parents responsible for their little brats....

make it VERY clear that you will press charges of assault against ANY child who touches yours..... and sue the parents according.....

[jimnyc]

there is.... make the parents responsible for their little brats....

make it VERY clear that you will press charges of assault against ANY child who touches yours..... and sue the parents according.....

What if it comes down to more than that, or less I should say, less physical perhaps, and more the kids riding him by other means? Most of the little altercations I have been aware of over the years, which wasn't a real lot, Jordan had as much guilt in it as the other kid.

For starters, I think I need to get him to open up more to me, so I know exactly what I'm trying to help him with.

And on that note, gotta run for now with the boy (they are on break). I have a vet appt and both doggies are coming, so I need the boys help!

[tailfins]

I would say fix this by any means necessary. Just "taking it" isn't an option. Let your son choose how to fix it, but fix it he must! You should insist on it and even offer to do it for him if he asks. There's also the option of changing schools or virtual school.

[Syrenn]

What if it comes down to more than that, or less I should say, less physical perhaps, and more the kids riding him by other means? Most of the little altercations I have been aware of over the years, which wasn't a real lot, Jordan had as much guilt in it as the other kid.

For starters, I think I need to get him to open up more to me, so I know exactly what I'm trying to help him with.

And on that note, gotta run for now with the boy (they are on break). I have a vet appt and both doggies are coming, so I need the boys help!


truthfully, unless its psychical....then kids need to learn how to deal with the real world. If your boy is just as guilty....then he should pull up his big boy pants and suck it up.

[gabosaurus]

You really need more specifics. Emotional abuse is different than physical abuse. And often time for devastating for kids.
Kids can be very cruel, especially if they discover a perceived weakness. It is very important that your son be honest and concise about what is going on.

I was bullied in middle school and some in high school. I was short, I was shy (imagine that!) and I didn't fit in. I was not really anxious to talk with my parents, so I talked with my sister instead. Then I ended up talking with my mom and dad.

If kids are just picking on you, with no real physical contact, the thing to do is stand up to them. You do this with indifferent and smart ass replies.

"Wow, your hair is really screwed up. And your face looks like a moon crater."
"You think you look better? If so, you're wrong."

A lot of stupid remarks can be answered by either doing nothing or just laughing at them.
A lot of bullies do things wanting a reaction. They get off on displays of weakness.

[jimnyc]

truthfully, unless its psychical....then kids need to learn how to deal with the real world. If your boy is just as guilty....then he should pull up his big boy pants and suck it up.

That's my initial thought, and I agree. But some kids might need a little more support or some guidance in what to do. But it doesn't seem much different than the crap I saw when I was back in high school. I suppose it's how each individual perceives things and how they handle it. I still need more info from him.


You really need more specifics. Emotional abuse is different than physical abuse. And often time for devastating for kids.
Kids can be very cruel, especially if they discover a perceived weakness. It is very important that your son be honest and concise about what is going on.

I was bullied in middle school and some in high school. I was short, I was shy (imagine that!) and I didn't fit in. I was not really anxious to talk with my parents, so I talked with my sister instead. Then I ended up talking with my mom and dad.

If kids are just picking on you, with no real physical contact, the thing to do is stand up to them. You do this with indifferent and smart ass replies.

"Wow, your hair is really screwed up. And your face looks like a moon crater."
"You think you look better? If so, you're wrong."

A lot of stupid remarks can be answered by either doing nothing or just laughing at them.
A lot of bullies do things wanting a reaction. They get off on displays of weakness.

I think it's more some kids getting together and picking on him. But yes, I know how even words can be damaging in the long run. I'm trying to figure ways to show/teach him that words don't mean shit, laugh at them and move on. But that's easier said than done with a 7th grader. But I really need more info and we're going to have a family sit down later, and hopefully he'll be a little more open and descriptive about what's bothering him.

[cadet]

From my dad, "Never start a fight, but if someone starts one with you... You better sure as hell end it."

[tailfins]

You really need more specifics. Emotional abuse is different than physical abuse. And often time for devastating for kids.
Kids can be very cruel, especially if they discover a perceived weakness. It is very important that your son be honest and concise about what is going on.

I was bullied in middle school and some in high school. I was short, I was shy (imagine that!) and I didn't fit in. I was not really anxious to talk with my parents, so I talked with my sister instead. Then I ended up talking with my mom and dad.

If kids are just picking on you, with no real physical contact, the thing to do is stand up to them. You do this with indifferent and smart ass replies.

"Wow, your hair is really screwed up. And your face looks like a moon crater."
"You think you look better? If so, you're wrong."

A lot of stupid remarks can be answered by either doing nothing or just laughing at them.
A lot of bullies do things wanting a reaction. They get off on displays of weakness.


My youngest had a similar problem. It seems he solved it by saying "I don't care about you or anything you say". He then left them talking to the back of his head. He then said if you follow me, I will report you as a bully, to the police if necessary. That seemed to fix it. It's good to teach them not to give a $&*( if someone likes them or not.

[Abbey Marie]

Pick the biggest bully he can handle, and clock him in full view of others. Win or lose, he will gain a certain respect from the bullies, as they always prey on those who they think won't fight back. Take the inevitable school suspension; it wil be worth it in the end.

Or:

The kid most people were afraid of in our school was quite thin and wiry. He probably couldn't take most of the buys, but he was a loose cannon, and that scared everyone. No one messed with him. Ever.

Good luck!

[cadet]

My youngest had a similar problem. It seems he solved it by saying "I don't care about you or anything you say". He then left them talking to the back of his head. He then said if you follow me, I will report you as a bully, to the police if necessary. That seemed to fix it. It's good to teach them not to give a $&*( if someone likes them or not.

When I was little I didn't have anybody to stand up for me.
So after I got two black eyes from the same kid (IN BOTH EYES!) in a week. My dad stepped in to yell at the bus driver to keep a damn eye on the kid.

Also, if he's got older siblings, another thing I ended up doing was threatening this punk middle schooler that was picking on my little bro. (I drove to school, but i took the day off to threaten)
After I was done telling him to keep his hands off my brother or I'd kick his scrawny ass, the bus driver told me I wasn't allowed to do that and I was going to get in trouble.
I turned right to him and said "I wouldn't have to threaten if you were doing your job." I got off, and never rode again. Problem was solved.

[Syrenn]

Pick the biggest bully he can handle, and clock him in full view of others. Win or lose, he will gain a certain respect from the bullies, as they always prey on those who they think won't fight back. Take the inevitable school suspension; it wil be worth it in the end.

Or:

The kid most people were afraid of in our school was quite thin and wiry. He probably couldn't take most of the buys, but he was a loose cannon, and that scared everyone. No one messed with him. Ever.

Good luck!

and the problem with that now a days is the zero tolerance rules.

it does not matter if the one being bullied finishes it.... he WILL be in just as much trouble for hitting back. It could end up worse then a suspension.

Which is why i say hurt the parents..... sue them for emotional damages. You need to back that up with documentation and taking your kid to a doctor.... but it works. Press charges and file reports with the cops.... paper trails. Take out restraining orders......

[gabosaurus]

From my dad, "Never start a fight, but if someone starts one with you... You better sure as hell end it."

This rarely works. For the reason that very few people see the first punch in a brawl. A lot more see the second one.
Which means that, in a fight, the person who retaliates usually gets in more trouble.

Jesus said it best when He talked about turning the other cheek. Plus, if you refuse to react, if drives bullies crazy. They thirst for reactions.

[cadet]

This rarely works. For the reason that very few people see the first punch in a brawl. A lot more see the second one.
Which means that, in a fight, the person who retaliates usually gets in more trouble.

Jesus said it best when He talked about turning the other cheek. Plus, if you refuse to react, if drives bullies crazy. They thirst for reactions.

My dad also told me that he'd have my back no matter what so long as I didn't start it.

One other thing he used to tell me, "You know how after the fight they'll be laying down? And you're supposed to be civil and let them run with their dignity? Kick 'em once or twice more just so they learn their lesson."

[tailfins]

and the problem with that now a days is the zero tolerance rules.

it does not matter if the one being bullied finishes it.... he WILL be in just as much trouble for hitting back. It could end up worse then a suspension.

Which is why i say hurt the parents..... sue them for emotional damages. You need to back that up with documentation and taking your kid to a doctor.... but it works. Press charges and file reports with the cops.... paper trails. Take out restraining orders......

You seem to know your stuff. I would only add to teach your kids to be indifferent to what others think.

[jimnyc]

The kid most people were afraid of in our school was quite thin and wiry. He probably couldn't take most of the buys, but he was a loose cannon, and that scared everyone. No one messed with him. Ever.

That was me, I was always shorter and thinner, but had a reputation of being a little crazy. It also didn't hurt that I had 2 brothers and a sister in the same school system!

[Abbey Marie]

and the problem with that now a days is the zero tolerance rules.

it does not matter if the one being bullied finishes it.... he WILL be in just as much trouble for hitting back. It could end up worse then a suspension.

Which is why i say hurt the parents..... sue them for emotional damages. You need to back that up with documentation and taking your kid to a doctor.... but it works. Press charges and file reports with the cops.... paper trails. Take out restraining orders......

The actions of the children don't always merit a lawsuit. Then what? The child is miserable, and he starts to avoid school. Grades drop. A lifelong anti-school attitude develops. If you have to keep him in the school, you have to deal with it. Letting it go on is the worst decision.

What worse than suspension do you think would happen for one fight, a provoked one at that?

[Syrenn]

The actions of the children don't always merit a lawsuit. Then what? The child is miserable, and he starts to avoid school. Grades drop. A lifelong anti-school attitude develops. If you have to keep him in the school, you have to deal with it. Letting it go on is the worst decision.

What worse than suspension do you think would happen for one fight, a provoked one at that?

you would be amazed at how far you can go with an emotional distress law suit. Take 50k out of a parents skin and trust me.... they will deal with their bully child.

a restraining order or filing police reports do not require a law suit..... they do require parents to sit up and take notice of what their children are doing.

I am not saying fighting back and eating a suspension is not a good choice..... i am saying that there are also better ways to go.

I am aslo saying... don't leave it up to the schools to deal with. Public schools cant do a damn thing to protect your children.

[tailfins]

you would be amazed at how far you can go with an emotional distress law suit. Take 50k out of a parents skin and trust me.... they will deal with their bully child.

a restraining order or filing police reports do not require a law suit..... they do require parents to sit up and take notice of what their children are doing.

I am not saying fighting back and eating a suspension is not a good choice..... i am saying that there are also better ways to go.

I am aslo saying... don't leave it up to the schools to deal with. Public schools cant do a damn thing to protect your children.


School is for learning and church is for friends. Teaching kids that school is not a place for making friends prepares them for the workplace. I like your stance on not hesitating to sue. As an added bonus, the criminal charges, even juvenile give the offender a record. A restraining order can be on the parents records demanding they control their children. As such the restraining order can impede the parents from owning a firearm, qualifying on a rental application and employment prospects. You have a deep understanding of the subject matter.

[gabosaurus]

School is for learning and church is for friends. Teaching kids that school is not a place for making friends prepares them for the workplace. I like your stance on not hesitating to sue. As an added bonus, the criminal charges, even juvenile give the offender a record. A restraining order can be on the parents records demanding they control their children. As such the restraining order can impede the parents from owning a firearm, qualifying on a rental application and employment prospects. You have a deep understanding of the subject matter.

You gotta be out of your mind. Your argument has no merit whatsoever.
School IS a place to learn and development personal relationships. It is a place where kids spend a large part of their day, in close contact with others. Those who don't make friends are the ones that normally find trouble.
Plus you are assuming that everyone goes to church, which is not the case.
The assumption that no one makes friends in the workplace is also ridiculous. Where else does someone who works (especially with long hours) meet people?
I think you have little concept of current reality.

[Voted4Reagan]

Teach your son to defend himself... If he is bullied and they put their hands on him give him the green light to kick the crap out of them.

Teach him every cheap shot in the book.

Tell him :

NEVER START IT... But MAKE SURE YOU FINISH IT!

Tell the school if they dont defend him he'll defend himself by any means needed.

[tailfins]

You gotta be out of your mind. Your argument has no merit whatsoever.
School IS a place to learn and development personal relationships. It is a place where kids spend a large part of their day, in close contact with others. Those who don't make friends are the ones that normally find trouble.
Plus you are assuming that everyone goes to church, which is not the case.
The assumption that no one makes friends in the workplace is also ridiculous. Where else does someone who works (especially with long hours) meet people?
I think you have little concept of current reality.

What you fail to see is that those long hours are BECAUSE someone has emotionally bonded inside the organization. When a manager sees someone is emotionally bonded inside the organization, it's an invitation for the subordinate to get dumped on. If a manager sees that a subordinate has an emotional cost of jumping ship too great it's a green light for token raises, being passed over for the resume-building projects and contrived deadlines that force substantial uncompensated overtime. If I get passed over for resume-building projects, I ask for personal days because I have an interview with another employer. I buttress my position by applying for an Americans with Disability Act accommodation to make firing me turn into lawsuit bait.

[Jeff]

Jim there are a lot of good points here I myself teach my kids that if it is just words to always remember these bullies usually do so because they are jealous for one reason or another of them and I tell them to walk away laughing at them now if it continues other measures must be taken

If it is physical than again they should try and do the right thing because Gabby is exactly right it is always the person throwing the second punch to get caught and I also read where it doesn't matter who started it both are suspended and that is true where I live also, but if worse come to worse I instruct my boys to do what they need to and don't stop until they are to tired to continue or they are pulled off and I also let them know if they where protecting themselves and get suspended I will take them fishing while they are out but if they start it well lets just say they don't want to do that lol, well both of my boys have experienced bullying Wyatt because he is small and Colt just recently because I am a Yankee LOL, and yes I was called to school and when I explained what was going on and after the kid that started the bullying admitted it( not wanting another beating) the boys where just sent back to class

[Syrenn]

School is for learning and church is for friends. Teaching kids that school is not a place for making friends prepares them for the workplace. I like your stance on not hesitating to sue. As an added bonus, the criminal charges, even juvenile give the offender a record. A restraining order can be on the parents records demanding they control their children. As such the restraining order can impede the parents from owning a firearm, qualifying on a rental application and employment prospects. You have a deep understanding of the subject matter.



so as i said.... hurt the parents of you want to put an end to the bullies.

The problem is out of hand on two levels..... this bullshit about no offending anyone or hurting feelings has gone off the deep end....

and parents have no idea how to raise and or control their children. Though i will say the courts have tied many parents hands with children threatening to call CPS when they don't get what they want.

[gabosaurus]

Teach your son to defend himself... If he is bullied and they put their hands on him give him the green light to kick the crap out of them.

Tell the school if they dont defend him he'll defend himself by any means needed.

Here is the problem with your argument: Fighting is not allowed in schools. If someone smacks you in the face and you smack them back, you are both in trouble. Doesn't matter who did what first.

If you want to settle a bullying issue by fighting, do it outside of school.
Otherwise, the best thing to do is to move out of the way. Like I said before, very few people see the first punch thrown. Many more see the second. Which means the person who retaliates is usually in more trouble.

[Abbey Marie]

Here is the problem with your argument: Fighting is not allowed in schools. If someone smacks you in the face and you smack them back, you are both in trouble. Doesn't matter who did what first.

If you want to settle a bullying issue by fighting, do it outside of school.
Otherwise, the best thing to do is to move out of the way. Like I said before, very few people see the first punch thrown. Many more see the second. Which means the person who retaliates is usually in more trouble.

Great point.

[Voted4Reagan]

Here is the problem with your argument: Fighting is not allowed in schools. If someone smacks you in the face and you smack them back, you are both in trouble. Doesn't matter who did what first.

If you want to settle a bullying issue by fighting, do it outside of school.
Otherwise, the best thing to do is to move out of the way. Like I said before, very few people see the first punch thrown. Many more see the second. Which means the person who retaliates is usually in more trouble.

guess what? I DONT CARE.

I want my kid to stand up for himself/herself and if your precious little prince or princess starts with my kid guess what? You'll need to be soaking blood out of clothing after my kid is done.

See... my DAUGHTER had this problem already. When she was in 2nd Grade a 5th grade boy was bullying her on the bus . He pulled her Hair, she told him several times to stop and she even notified the DRIVER and the MATRON. When she was told to sit down and stop complaining and the boy did it again, she jumped out of her seat, grabbed the little prick by the back of the head and brought her knee up into his face.

Broke his nose, split his lip...

When they tried to suspend her from school I looked at them, picked up my cell phone and called my Attorney and the Media.

Guess what, SELF DEFENSE, NO SUSPENSION and a small suspension from the bus for leaving her seat.

She asked if I was mad at her and I said HELL NO... and took her for Ice Cream.

You EDU-CRATS think you know our kids better then we do... you're wrong... all my kids are trained to protect themselves because they know that NOBODY in that school is gonna do it for them. Some sissy teacher/worker/administrator isnt going to anything other then say both parties were wrong. Why? Because it covers their lazy, high salary union ass.

Dont preach to me you sanctimonious windbag.... my kid will kick the SHIT out of yours... in self defense.

And I will back her up because people in your profession refuse to.

In a court of law self defense is reason for acquittal. But in School it isn't?

I'll see the teachers in Court.... and WIN.

[Kathianne]

What if it comes down to more than that, or less I should say, less physical perhaps, and more the kids riding him by other means? Most of the little altercations I have been aware of over the years, which wasn't a real lot, Jordan had as much guilt in it as the other kid.

For starters, I think I need to get him to open up more to me, so I know exactly what I'm trying to help him with.

And on that note, gotta run for now with the boy (they are on break). I have a vet appt and both doggies are coming, so I need the boys help!

I gotta run to work in a few, just saw this thread. This post actually says a few things. One, want him to 'open up?' You got to too. Not share things he shoudn't know, just honest communication. Two, "I need his help..." He's old enough to make important contributions and have responsibilities. Self-esteem earned cannot be taken away by some kids.

I'll get on later.

[NightTrain]

Jim, get him in to a martial arts class. The wrestling team at school will teach him valuable skills as well, since most fights end up down in the dirt anyway.

He has every right to defend himself, despite what Gabby will tell you.

My son got his front tooth knocked out by a bully's sucker punch, my son fought back and the school attempted to suspend both for fighting - it's easier and cleaner to simply suspend both, case closed. I objected to this bullshit and my son wasn't suspended. After that, I got all my kids into a martial arts class and there have been no issues.

A bully won't pick a fight with someone who is capable of fighting, and your kid and the school should know that you'll back your kid up to the limit over self defense.

Besides all the common sense arguments over the right to self defense, it also teaches your kid to rely on himself when it's needed instead of threatening lawsuits or going to the principal (which most likely won't work anyway).



Just my $0.02, man... been there, done that. My kids aren't 7th-degree blackbelts by any means, but they can easily handle schoolyard hooligans and the other kids know it.

[Abbey Marie]

Jim, get him in to a martial arts class. The wrestling team at school will teach him valuable skills as well, since most fights end up down in the dirt anyway.

He has every right to defend himself, despite what Gabby will tell you.

My son got his front tooth knocked out by a bully's sucker punch, my son fought back and the school attempted to suspend both for fighting - it's easier and cleaner to simply suspend both, case closed. I objected to this bullshit and my son wasn't suspended. After that, I got all my kids into a martial arts class and there have been no issues.

A bully won't pick a fight with someone who is capable of fighting, and your kid and the school should know that you'll back your kid up to the limit over self defense.

Besides all the common sense arguments over the right to self defense, it also teaches your kid to rely on himself when it's needed instead of threatening lawsuits or going to the principal (which most likely won't work anyway).



Just my $0.02, man... been there, done that. My kids aren't 7th-degree blackbelts by any means, but they can easily handle schoolyard hooligans and the other kids know it.

You are the second person in this thread (Jeff also) to say that you fought the school, and your kid wasn't suspended. :cool:

[gabosaurus]

My daughter knows how to defend herself. She also knows WHEN to defend herself.
You people who advocate fighting are encouraging discipline problems.
V4R, you can raise your kid however you want. You can teach your kids to solve their problems through violence. Just don't be surprised when you deny your kid something and they shoot you.

In our school system, we don't kick kids out of school. We send them to in school suspension. The kids who don't behave their go to an alternative school.
Yes, parents can appeal placement to alternative school. Guess who hears a lot of the appeals. :cool:

[cadet]

My daughter knows how to defend herself. She also knows WHEN to defend herself.
You people who advocate fighting are encouraging discipline problems.
V4R, you can raise your kid however you want. You can teach your kids to solve their problems through violence. Just don't be surprised when you deny your kid something and they shoot you.

In our school system, we don't kick kids out of school. We send them to in school suspension. The kids who don't behave their go to an alternative school.
Yes, parents can appeal placement to alternative school. Guess who hears a lot of the appeals. :cool:

Back at the high school I went to, if you tried to protect yourself by hitting back, you were kicked out with the kid who started it.

Hell, if you didn't even protect yourself you "Must have provoked" the other student. My friend was suspended for a week cause this girl said she didn't like him having a crush on her friend, and kicked him in the nuts.

When dad was in school, and the boys were ready to come to blows, they'd go out to the school parking lot under the supervision of the principle and get it out of their system. Walk away friends, but still get detention.

[gabosaurus]

Hell, if you didn't even protect yourself you "Must have provoked" the other student. My friend was suspended for a week cause this girl said she didn't like him having a crush on her friend, and kicked him in the nuts.


This is why we have a appeal system for kids. For minor offenses, we have a student court that hears cases. Kids are often harsher on their peers than adults are.
For zero tolerance offenses like fighting, we have an appeals panel. Usually a counselor and an administrator. Parents are welcome to attend. Most of the time, they don't.
Our middle and high schools have security cameras in most of the public corridors. It is tough to contest visual evidence.

[cadet]

This is why we have a appeal system for kids. For minor offenses, we have a student court that hears cases. Kids are often harsher on their peers than adults are.
For zero tolerance offenses like fighting, we have an appeals panel. Usually a counselor and an administrator. Parents are welcome to attend. Most of the time, they don't.
Our middle and high schools have security cameras in most of the public corridors. It is tough to contest visual evidence.

We should let them beat the shit out of eachother so they get it out of their system.

Guys ALWAYS help walk away friends once it's over and done with. Yeah, give them detention, but the zero tolerance is bull.

If you make it so they just can't have any release over their drama that's effecting their friendship, it's just going to cause deeper hatred later on.

[tailfins]

My daughter knows how to defend herself. She also knows WHEN to defend herself.
You people who advocate fighting are encouraging discipline problems.
V4R, you can raise your kid however you want. You can teach your kids to solve their problems through violence. Just don't be surprised when you deny your kid something and they shoot you.

In our school system, we don't kick kids out of school. We send them to in school suspension. The kids who don't behave their go to an alternative school.
Yes, parents can appeal placement to alternative school. Guess who hears a lot of the appeals. :cool:

What's the big deal of an alternative school? The kid still gets an education.


We should let them beat the shit out of eachother so they get it out of their system.

Guys ALWAYS help walk away friends once it's over and done with. Yeah, give them detention, but the zero tolerance is bull.

If you make it so they just can't have any release over their drama that's effecting their friendship, it's just going to cause deeper hatred later on.

We no longer live in that world. That's just the way it is. It's better to just disengage. School culture sucks. Kids come out ahead if they don't participate. I will back my kids up if they choose to be socially present, however they see that it's less trouble not to.

[cadet]

We no longer live in that world. That's just the way it is. It's better to just disengage. School culture sucks. Kids come out ahead if they don't participate. I will back my kids up if they choose to be socially present, however they see that it's less trouble not to.

It's better if we start a revolution before the gov't becomes a dictatorship that has a say in our every day life... :rolleyes:

They can already tell you what you can and can't put in your body. They're trying to tell you what you can and can't own. And thanks to obamacare, they're FORCING you to buy their products.

... How much longer until they start selling toothpaste that is mandatory to keep the american people healthy?

(If you haven't noticed yet, my role models list includes Jefferson the almost-anarchist ;))

[Jeff]

My daughter knows how to defend herself. She also knows WHEN to defend herself.
You people who advocate fighting are encouraging discipline problems.
V4R, you can raise your kid however you want. You can teach your kids to solve their problems through violence. Just don't be surprised when you deny your kid something and they shoot you.

In our school system, we don't kick kids out of school. We send them to in school suspension. The kids who don't behave their go to an alternative school.
Yes, parents can appeal placement to alternative school. Guess who hears a lot of the appeals. :cool:

Advocating Fighting, no I don't feel telling a child to try the correct ways first , talk to the teacher , walk away ....ect.. is Advocating fighting nor is it teaching a child to solve there problems through violence , personally i feel it teaches a child to do things the correct way but when nothing is done about it he/she doesn't have to stand there and be a victim

Gabby in the experience I spoke of with my younger son it was when they where in K4 and during recess they where playing football ( which was actually kill the guy with the ball) and he had a boy that continued to put his hands on him, my son went to his teacher ( the correct way ) but she was having a chat with the other teachers and kept telling him to wait a second and after doing this for a while told him to go play, well it continued on and when recess was over (after being hit by this boy all through recess) they would stop at the bathroom before going back to class , well as my son walked up to the urinal the boy shoved him out of the way at that point my boy had had enough and took matters into his own hands and gave the boy a beating and yes when asked he told his teacher exactly what had happened and exactly what I told him to do and yes I received a nasty note that night telling me how shocked she was at the advice I gave , well the next morning I was at the school, the principal met me at the door looked at the note and said OOOO NO this wont work so we had a meeting and yes the teacher admitted my boy had come to her and also admitted her husband gives her children the same advice , at that point the principal apologized to me and told me I wouldn't be receiving any more notes like that

Another example was in the county I live in being it is in a rural area we have grammar school kids middle school and high school kids all on the same bus , my boys would sit together ( if I remember right they where in first grade ) and they had a heavy set fourth grader sitting behind them that would pick on them , it started out with him kicking there book bags then throwing them then it went to him slapping them, they went to the bus driver and where told to sit down she would tell the principal about it, well another week went by and it continued everyday so I called the bus driver and she told me she would move the older boys seat well she did nothing after it went on for a few more days it was time for them to handle it , see my boys are all boys they are tuff kids so I told them to walk in the next morning and provoke it call the kid names what ever it takes and then both of them jump on him and of course they where worried the other boy was twice there size ( but they also had a older brother on the bus that was told if anything took place to just break it up) well they did provoke and the kid jumped up and the two little guys whooped his butt and yup I got called to school I walked in with all the dates that they spoke to the bus driver and also when I did and the day she was suppose to of spoke to the principal which she didn't and the principal shook my hand and thanked me for being so patient with the situation as I said good bye he told the bus driver to stay he needed to speak to her, and guess what no more problems on the bus

What does surprise me though Gabby is a counselor making a statement that if your child defends him/her self don't be surprised if you deny them something and they shoot ya ( my oldest boy is 24) and in all the years dealing with schools I have never heard anything like that , IMO I would think a child that was told to go through school and allow other to bully them would be the the ones I worried about , and by the way my youngest is now 10 and there hasnt been a fight since first grade and only one of my boys has ever been suspended from school for fighting and it wasn't his fault ( kids caught the entire thing on there cell phones ) but your exactly right both get suspended when fighting

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Advocating Fighting, no I don't feel telling a child to try the correct ways first , talk to the teacher , walk away ....ect.. is Advocating fighting nor is it teaching a child to solve there problems through violence , personally i feel it teaches a child to do things the correct way but when nothing is done about it he/she doesn't have to stand there and be a victim

Gabby in the experience I spoke of with my younger son it was when they where in K4 and during recess they where playing football ( which was actually kill the guy with the ball) and he had a boy that continued to put his hands on him, my son went to his teacher ( the correct way ) but she was having a chat with the other teachers and kept telling him to wait a second and after doing this for a while told him to go play, well it continued on and when recess was over (after being hit by this boy all through recess) they would stop at the bathroom before going back to class , well as my son walked up to the urinal the boy shoved him out of the way at that point my boy had had enough and took matters into his own hands and gave the boy a beating and yes when asked he told his teacher exactly what had happened and exactly what I told him to do and yes I received a nasty note that night telling me how shocked she was at the advice I gave , well the next morning I was at the school, the principal met me at the door looked at the note and said OOOO NO this wont work so we had a meeting and yes the teacher admitted my boy had come to her and also admitted her husband gives her children the same advice , at that point the principal apologized to me and told me I wouldn't be receiving any more notes like that

Another example was in the county I live in being it is in a rural area we have grammar school kids middle school and high school kids all on the same bus , my boys would sit together ( if I remember right they where in first grade ) and they had a heavy set fourth grader sitting behind them that would pick on them , it started out with him kicking there book bags then throwing them then it went to him slapping them, they went to the bus driver and where told to sit down she would tell the principal about it, well another week went by and it continued everyday so I called the bus driver and she told me she would move the older boys seat well she did nothing after it went on for a few more days it was time for them to handle it , see my boys are all boys they are tuff kids so I told them to walk in the next morning and provoke it call the kid names what ever it takes and then both of them jump on him and of course they where worried the other boy was twice there size ( but they also had a older brother on the bus that was told if anything took place to just break it up) well they did provoke and the kid jumped up and the two little guys whooped his butt and yup I got called to school I walked in with all the dates that they spoke to the bus driver and also when I did and the day she was suppose to of spoke to the principal which she didn't and the principal shook my hand and thanked me for being so patient with the situation as I said good bye he told the bus driver to stay he needed to speak to her, and guess what no more problems on the bus

What does surprise me though Gabby is a counselor making a statement that if your child defends him/her self don't be surprised if you deny them something and they shoot ya ( my oldest boy is 24) and in all the years dealing with schools I have never heard anything like that , IMO I would think a child that was told to go through school and allow other to bully them would be the the ones I worried about , and by the way my youngest is now 10 and there hasnt been a fight since first grade and only one of my boys has ever been suspended from school for fighting and it wasn't his fault ( kids caught the entire thing on there cell phones ) but your exactly right both get suspended when fighting

I agree with how you handled it all. Back in my day my dad told me to get on the bus and beat he hell out of the kid . I did so and took my spanking in the principal's office. The problem was solved. My daughter never had a fight at school but I gave her just about the same advice. My son will start first grade next year and I will give him the same advice. Anybody lays hands upon him in violent actions he is to fight back consequences be damned. I'll go to school to settle the damn consequences as soon as I am notified of the incident. And my son will never be in trouble with me for obeying my commands or taking my advice.-Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

I agree with how you handled it all. Back in my day my dad told me to get on the bus and beat he hell out of the kid . I did so and took my spanking in the principal's office. The problem was solved. My daughter never had a fight at school but I gave her just about the same advice. My son will start first grade next year and I will give him the same advice. Anybody lays hands upon him in violent actions he is to fight back consequences be damned. I'll go to school to settle the damn consequences as soon as I am notified of the incident. And my son will never be in trouble with me for obeying my commands or taking my advice.-Tyr

As I always say old friend, The schools long ago gave up defending kids. It's up to us as parents to make sure that our kids can and will defend themselves.

Truthfully, if my kid beats up his bully I am taking him out and celebrating. Pizza, Ice Cream and maybe a new video game.

Standing up for yourself isnt reason for punishment as liberal teachers would have you believe.

Hell... when I was in 4th grade I had a teacher hit mein the back of the head because I wouldnt look at her.

I flipped her over my desk onto the floor and told her to keep her hands off me...

She was a Substitute on her first day.... it was also her last.

Principal said I had defended myself... Teacher was fired and moved away.

That was 1974...Corporal punishment was long gone... She had crossed the line and I knocked her back across it.

Served her right...

[gabosaurus]

Jeff, you have to realize that I speak from experience. Kids who have never been taught to restrain their aggressions often become increasingly violent.
I have seen kids who learn at home to never back down from a fight and to never allow someone to insult you or tread on your honor. They come to school and get into fights. Which gets them suspended. The parents complain about honor and don't understand that fighting is fighting.
If you want to defend your honor, you do it after school.

The school system I work at has a lot of gang kids. They are notorious for causing trouble while defending their turf. But we have been successful in getting them to observe schools as neutral ground.
I talk to a lot of gang kids who are uncomfortable with others. They know I grew up around gangs and understand them.

One of the best things my cousin ever did was take an anger management course when she was in 11th grade. It was court ordered as a term of her probation. She had to go to court after a series of altercations she had. She beat up a romantic rival, then beat up one of her male friends.

[cadet]

Jeff, you have to realize that I speak from experience. Kids who have never been taught to restrain their aggressions often become increasingly violent....

Or join wrestling for the outlet, that's what our team did. :laugh:
And I tell you what, it's a gentleman's street fight. When it started to get really bad, we'd get up huffing and puffing and say something like "Alright, I'm good. Stop flirting with my sister." And they'd say "A'ight."

[Voted4Reagan]

Jeff, you have to realize that I speak from experience. Kids who have never been taught to restrain their aggressions often become increasingly violent.
I have seen kids who learn at home to never back down from a fight and to never allow someone to insult you or tread on your honor. They come to school and get into fights. Which gets them suspended. The parents complain about honor and don't understand that fighting is fighting.
If you want to defend your honor, you do it after school.

The school system I work at has a lot of gang kids. They are notorious for causing trouble while defending their turf. But we have been successful in getting them to observe schools as neutral ground.
I talk to a lot of gang kids who are uncomfortable with others. They know I grew up around gangs and understand them.

One of the best things my cousin ever did was take an anger management course when she was in 11th grade. It was court ordered as a term of her probation. She had to go to court after a series of altercations she had. She beat up a romantic rival, then beat up one of her male friends.

What a load of tripe. "IN YOUR EXPERIENCE"... What a joke!

You have no experience. You live in a fantasy world where all kids in your eyes are the same. Guess what? THEY ARE NOT!

You have taken away Competition, individual recognition and replaced it with a pacifist agenda where everyone is a winner.

Guess what...? NOT EVERYONE CAN WIN. You are taking drive, determination and competition out of these kids and turning them into a bunch of politically correct leftist clones that chase butterflies and sing Kumbayah.

These kids are entering a world that is unforgiving and relentless. They need these skills to survive and to succeed on individual achievement. You and your ilk strip them of individuality and relplace it with group "mind-think" that finishing second or third or last is acceptable. IT ISN'T.

You have replaced personal responsibility with entitlement. These kids in High school and college all expect the world to be handed to them because they never had to compete for anything before in their lives.

And because parents like me teach our kids to stand up for themselves and to not back down we're the ones you blame? Are you serious? You and the education system have created this problem.

You are the problem, not the solution. My sons and Daughter have all had fights at school and because of their superior grades and my standing by them have never been suspended. If I let the teachers raise my kids I'd have 3 weak willed automatons instead of 3 Honor roll kids and a Daughter that is already being scouted for Varsity HS Softball. AT THE AGE OF 12!!

My kids are fighters... they will fight to succeed and fight to get ahead and they will fight to protect themselves and the less fortunate.

And btw... they wouldn't shoot me as you said before.... they are all trained marksmen and been handling guns under my supervision for years. They know the laws better then any Liberal in the House or Senate.

[Kathianne]

For all the reasons Gabby and others stated, I don't think telling the boy to beat the crap out of others is the best line of reasoning. The idea of martial arts though or any type of self-defense is good, for the simple reason that it builds self-confidence, to the degree the child accomplishes their goals. Not too mention that they can get together with others for 'talent show' which nearly all schools have. Put him up there with another or a few and show their stuff. Bullies always come from a place of weakness, either their own self-confidence or jealousy. Keeping that in mind can help mitigate some of what they say. If the bully is physical, I'm with Syreen, go for an order of protection. While I don't think suing is a great idea, the threat can help, especially if delivered on legal stationary requesting the insurance company of homeowner's liability policy. ;) The above regarding involving courts, lawyers, and insurance companies should only be in extreme cases, meaning between yourselves and child not able to cope. The schools do not do a good job of this, beyond making 'zero tolerance rules,' which is little help at all. Go in and talk to them, they'll call the bullies and your child down, giving the bullies more ammo. Call most bullies parents and you'll run into ignorant folks. Not always, but often enough to make it a rule with exceptions.

[cadet]

What a load of tripe. "IN YOUR EXPERIENCE"... What a joke!

You have no experience. You live in a fantasy world where all kids in your eyes are the same. Guess what? THEY ARE NOT!

You have taken away Competition, individual recognition and replaced it with a pacifist agenda where everyone is a winner.

Guess what...? NOT EVERYONE CAN WIN. You are taking drive, determination and competition out of these kids and turning them into a bunch of politically correct leftist clones that chase butterflies and sing Kumbayah.

These kids are entering a world that is unforgiving and relentless. They need these skills to survive and to succeed on individual achievement. You and your ilk strip them of individuality and relplace it with group "mind-think" that finishing second or third or last is acceptable. IT ISN'T.

You have replaced personal responsibility with entitlement. These kids in High school and college all expect the world to be handed to them because they never had to compete for anything before in their lives.

And because parents like me teach our kids to stand up for themselves and to not back down we're the ones you blame? Are you serious? You and the education system have created this problem.

You are the problem, not the solution. My sons and Daughter have all had fights at school and because of their superior grades and my standing by them have never been suspended. If I let the teachers raise my kids I'd have 3 weak willed automatons instead of 3 Honor roll kids and a Daughter that is already being scouted for Varsity HS Softball. AT THE AGE OF 12!!

My kids are fighters... they will fight to succeed and fight to get ahead and they will fight to protect themselves and the less fortunate.

And btw... they wouldn't shoot me as you said before.... they are all trained marksmen and been handling guns under my supervision for years. They know the laws better then any Liberal in the House or Senate.

Reminds me of a few quotes from my Coach.
"What are you gonna do when you're belly up in a ditch somewhere? Stand up and keep fighting or give up?"
"It's not how good you are, it's how good you look."
"If you lose because the other kids better, but you still fight with all your heart, I'll never be angry with it. But if you lay there like a fish, or walk out already beaten, I'll make you run your ass off."
"If you quit once, the next time you quit it'll be easier, and again, and again, until you know nothing but how to quit when things get rough."
"As sure as God made little green apples!"
"THERE IS A COMPLETE LACK OF DISRESPECT IN HERE!!"

I loved him, he didn't care so much if you won or lost, but if you fought your hardest, and got up and shook the other kids hand the same way whether you won or lost. I'd suggest having your kid wrestle, it teaches sportsmanship, hard work, dieting..., and most importantly how to get back up after you've fallen.

[Voted4Reagan]

Reminds me of a few quotes from my Coach.
"What are you gonna do when you're belly up in a ditch somewhere? Stand up and keep fighting or give up?"
"It's not how good you are, it's how good you look."
"If you lose because the other kids better, but you still fight with all your heart, I'll never be angry with it. But if you lay there like a fish, or walk out already beaten, I'll make you run your ass off."
"If you quit once, the next time you quit it'll be easier, and again, and again, until you know nothing but how to quit when things get rough."
"As sure as God made little green apples!"
"THERE IS A COMPLETE LACK OF DISRESPECT IN HERE!!"

I loved him, he didn't care so much if you won or lost, but if you fought your hardest, and got up and shook the other kids hand the same way whether you won or lost. I'd suggest having your kid wrestle, it teaches sportsmanship, hard work, dieting..., and most importantly how to get back up after you've fallen.

Sounds like my Coach, may he rest in peace... died way too young of a heart attack at age 53.

We need more "COACHES" and less "Cant we all just get along" types.

Drive, ambition, competition and pursuit of a dream, coupled with responsibility for ones own self, neighbors and Community built this country.

Liberal "Edu-Crats" are destroying it.

[cadet]

Sounds like my Coach, may he rest in peace... died way too young of a heart attack at age 53.

We need more "COACHES" and less "Cant we all just get along" types.

Drive, ambition, competition and pursuit of a dream, coupled with responsibility for ones own self, neighbors and Community built this country.

Liberal "Edu-Crats" are destroying it.

My coach was fired from the school.
He was the coach that took the team from a bunch of nobodies to state champions. The school hated him cause he worked us hard, and was very blunt. He was mean when it came to coaching, but he only did it because he liked us. He always said "I'm not here to create the best wrestlers, I'm here to create the best people. I'm not preparing you for a meet, I'm preparing you for life."
The school finally fired him though. It was something stupid. But the school had been wanting to fire him cause of his non-liberal attitude.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I have seen kids who learn at home to never back down from a fight and to never allow someone to insult you or tread on your honor. They come to school and get into fights. Which gets them suspended. The parents complain about honor and don't understand that fighting is fighting.
If you want to defend your honor, you do it after school.


One defends ones honor on the timetable set by the person doing the defending not some bullshat time set by somebody that doesn't know shit from wild honey!
Man spits in my face I am going start stomping his ass right then and there regardless of anything else in the universe!
Back when it was far more likely that a lowlife bastard doing the insulting of a man or his family was dealt with immediately there was a hell of a lot less insulting going on. Especially lewd attacks upon women.

[Voted4Reagan]

One defends ones honor on the timetable set by the person doing the defending not some bullshat time set by somebody that doesn't know shit from wild honey!
Man spits in my face I am going start stomping his ass right then and there regardless of anything else in the universe!
Back when it was far more likely that a lowlife bastard doing the insulting of a man or his family was dealt with immediately there was a hell of a lot less insulting going on. Especially lewd attacks upon women.

We Irish do it differently... we'll kick the hell out of each other... win lose or draw we'll be talking the next day.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

We Irish do it differently... we'll kick the hell out of each other... win lose or draw we'll be talking the next day.

I have Irish blood in my veins. And Injun' too. ;)--Tyr


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[Jeff]

Jeff, you have to realize that I speak from experience. Kids who have never been taught to restrain their aggressions often become increasingly violent.
I have seen kids who learn at home to never back down from a fight and to never allow someone to insult you or tread on your honor. They come to school and get into fights. Which gets them suspended. The parents complain about honor and don't understand that fighting is fighting.
If you want to defend your honor, you do it after school.

The school system I work at has a lot of gang kids. They are notorious for causing trouble while defending their turf. But we have been successful in getting them to observe schools as neutral ground.
I talk to a lot of gang kids who are uncomfortable with others. They know I grew up around gangs and understand them.

One of the best things my cousin ever did was take an anger management course when she was in 11th grade. It was court ordered as a term of her probation. She had to go to court after a series of altercations she had. She beat up a romantic rival, then beat up one of her male friends.

Gabby I agree with you 100% what I try and teach my boys is fighting is the last resort and it should never be the first way to manage a problem with a bully or any other situation for that matter .As I had said my Boys can all handle themselves very well but they haven't been in a fight in years because they know there are other ways to handle it but when push comes to shove and nothing else works they are still to take matters into there own hands and I have found that the pre school along with the grammar , middle and HS all agree and respect the way I have taught them . And yes Gabby I know your neck of the woods has a lot of Gang trouble and that changes the entire ball game , IMO if the parents did there jobs in the home and didn't count on yall at school to do everything there kids may not have taken that route ( but that is just my opinion and god knows I am no expert on that subject )