Question for Christians

[jimnyc]

A Muslim friend asked a genuine question and I don't know how to answer it. He asked if Jesus was the Son of God, and of course I said yes. He then asked, why some state, and even some bumper stickers state - "Jesus is God".

Why sometimes the "Son of God" and at others he IS God?

The way I explained it was that Jesus was sent in God's image, and therefore God, but I'm sure I am wrong. And yes, this friend is testing me, saying Jesus is NOT the son of God, and using this example to claim "not even all Christians can decide if he was the son or God himself".

[jafar00]

A Muslim friend asked a genuine question and I don't know how to answer it. He asked if Jesus was the Son of God, and of course I said yes. He then asked, why some state, and even some bumper stickers state - "Jesus is God".

Why sometimes the "Son of God" and at others he IS God?

The way I explained it was that Jesus was sent in God's image, and therefore God, but I'm sure I am wrong. And yes, this friend is testing me, saying Jesus is NOT the son of God, and using this example to claim "not even all Christians can decide if he was the son or God himself".

That was something that confused me too. Saying Jesus (as) was the son and his own father. O.o

[taft2012]

In the spirit of St. Patrick's Day...

St. Patrick used the shamrock to demonstrate the Holy Trinity. The 3 leaves of the shamrock represented the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. All three are part of the one.

I would ask back how Muslims think it is possible to blaspheme against a man, Mohamad.

[jimnyc]

That was something that confused me too. Saying Jesus (as) was the son and his own father. O.o

Well, it wasn't Jesus who stated that, but current people who use that term. In the Bible, there are a bunch of references to show that Jesus was the son of God. I'm just not sure why some current day folks use that terminology.

"This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" - Matthew 3:17.

[jimnyc]

In the spirit of St. Patrick's Day...

St. Patrick used the shamrock to demonstrate the Holy Trinity. The 3 leaves of the shamrock represented the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. All three are part of the one.

I would ask back how Muslims think it is possible to blaspheme against a man, Mohamad.

So, the Father (God), Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost can all be referred to as "God", in representation?

[jimnyc]

I used the Matthew quote above, and these below - as my friend also states there is no mention of Jesus being the Son of God in the Bible.

When Jesus asked his disciple who they thought he was, Simon Peter declared, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" and Jesus rejoiced at this revelation from God that Peter had been given - Matthew 16:15-17.

When on trial before the Sanhedrin, the High Priest asked if he was the Son of God and Jesus replied, "Yes, it is as you say." - Matthew 26:63-64.

Jesus asked the blind man who he had just healed if he believed in the Son of God. The man asked him who the Son of God was and Jesus answered him and said, "You have both seen him and are now talking to him." - John 10:35-38.

[jimnyc]

I think I have found my answer and will print out this page:


There is only one God as the Holy Bible says. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! (Deuteronomy 6:4) We also know that the Bible gives attributes of deity to God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit of God. We also know that there are not three God’s, they are One.

Trying to explain God with human understanding is very limited, because we are limited. We can only know about God by what He has revealed to us in His written Word, the Holy Bible. The Bible gives us enough information to know that we can trust God with our lives and believe that His word is truth. But we cannot understand all that there is to know about God from our human perspective.

Man is created in the image of God so we can understand some things about God by looking at ourselves. There are three parts to humans we have a spirit, and a soul, and they are contained in a physical body, but they are one person. Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1STThessalonians 5:23) The following is a crude human analogy of God but it seems to fit with what we are taught in the Bible about God. The soul would relate to God the Father. The body would be Jesus the Christ, and the spirit of God would be the Holy Spirit.

The soul is a spiritual being, it is the mind, the heart, the control center of a person, the personality, it is the person. God the Father is Spirit. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)

Jesus the Christ represents the body of God; He is God in physical form. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, (Colossians 2:9). Just as the body receives and obeys commands from the soul, or mind, Jesus receives and obeyed commands from the Father. Jesus said that He only did what He saw the Father do and He only said what He heard the Father say. Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. (John 8:28) Jesus was a sinless example of how we are supposed to be, in total obedience to the Father. The body is subject to the mind or soul.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of love. I believe that the Holy Spirit unites the Father and Son as One; One in love, One in will, One in personality. The spirit that God has given man is what the world calls our conscience. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) The spirit that God has given man is our source of life, (John 6:63). The moment that the spirit that God has given us departs from our body we are dead, (James 2:26).

Our spirit gives us understanding of truth from God. But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding. (Job 32:8) Our spirit is always trying to unite us with God through Jesus Christ, who is the only way to God. "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:9-11) Our spirit is the only part of our being that we can trust. Our spirit reveals truth to us in the way that God sees truth. The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being. (Proverbs 20:27)

Human souls have inherited corruption from Adam’s sin, (Romans 5:12). Because a person is born a sinner he cannot trust his own soul, which is his heart. The natural tendency of our soul is to sin. Sin is disobedience to God and comes from rejecting God as God and trying to be our own god. The natural tendency of a corrupted human soul is to be his own god, which appeals to his pride and selfishness. "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings. (Jeremiah 17:9-10)

Before a person accepts Jesus Christ as Lord they are more sensitive to their body and corrupted soul rather than to their spirit. When a person truly believes in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God their life is transformed by the Holy Spirit. Believers receive the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, in them. A person who has the Holy Spirit in them becomes more sensitive to their spirit because God’s Holy Spirit communicates with us through our spirit. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (Romans 8:13-16)

People who try to come to God without accepting Jesus Christ as the way to God are deceiving themselves and they often try to deceive others also. Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, (1st Timothy 4:1-2) These people are insensitive to their spirit, or conscience, that God has given them. Some of these people think that they have found a higher consciousness in themselves but they are deceived by their own corrupt soul.

Rest here - http://www.seekgod.org/bible/jesusisgod.html

[taft2012]

That was something that confused me too. Saying Jesus (as) was the son and his own father. O.o


My God is capable of great and miraculous things.

Yours...not so much.

[Voted4Reagan]

That was something that confused me too. Saying Jesus (as) was the son and his own father. O.o

Jesus is a part of what is referred to as the HOLY TRINITY. Comprising:

God the Father

God the Son (Jesus Christ)

The Holy Spirit

when we make the sign of the cross at prayer we say :

"In the name of The Father, and of The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen"

It affirms our belief that we believe in God the Father, creator of Heaven and Earth. His Son Jesus Christ who was his manifestation on Earth, and the Holy Spirit which is the intangible but recognized manifestation of God's Spirit on Earth.

They form One Eternal Triune God. 3 manifestations of a Singular God...

[tailfins]

That was something that confused me too. Saying Jesus (as) was the son and his own father. O.o

A Sunday School teacher explained it this way: Substitute "water" for God. Ice is water; Liquid water is water; Steam is water. Jesus, The Father God and the Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the same "element" God.

[jimnyc]

Not sure why, but my buddy likes to "disprove" things from the Bible and "prove" things from the Quran. That was his latest, Jesus being God, and that we were "confused". He says that there are "scientific" things written in the Quran that are still happening today, and asks, how could these things have been known? Which he says proves that the Quran comes from God. He asks for "proof" from the Bible, similar to what he is talking about, to show that the Bible and Jesus were as miraculous as that.

I point to him Jesus on the cross and the resurrection. He states it's an old tale and truly never happened, and it's just old stories passed along. He also states the same about the miracles. But when I say that things in either book can't be proven unequivocally, he claims that things in the Quran can be proven as such. I don't have enough interest to follow up on his claims, but I won't tell him he is wrong or making it up.

[Syrenn]

A Muslim friend asked a genuine question and I don't know how to answer it. He asked if Jesus was the Son of God, and of course I said yes. He then asked, why some state, and even some bumper stickers state - "Jesus is God".

Why sometimes the "Son of God" and at others he IS God?

The way I explained it was that Jesus was sent in God's image, and therefore God, but I'm sure I am wrong. And yes, this friend is testing me, saying Jesus is NOT the son of God, and using this example to claim "not even all Christians can decide if he was the son or God himself".


tell him its genetic.

:laugh:


but the way i understand it is the trinity. Father, son, holy ghost...separate but one.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think I have found my answer and will print out this page:



Rest here - http://www.seekgod.org/bible/jesusisgod.html

Excellent source and information. --:clap:--Tyr

[Syrenn]

Not sure why, but my buddy likes to "disprove" things from the Bible and "prove" things from the Quran. That was his latest, Jesus being God, and that we were "confused". He says that there are "scientific" things written in the Quran that are still happening today, and asks, how could these things have been known? Which he says proves that the Quran comes from God. He asks for "proof" from the Bible, similar to what he is talking about, to show that the Bible and Jesus were as miraculous as that.

I point to him Jesus on the cross and the resurrection. He states it's an old tale and truly never happened, and it's just old stories passed along. He also states the same about the miracles. But when I say that things in either book can't be proven unequivocally, he claims that things in the Quran can be proven as such. I don't have enough interest to follow up on his claims, but I won't tell him he is wrong or making it up.


LOL... tell you friend hes a dick.

The way i understand it... the quran itself references jesus as the son of god. So ask him why he is going against the word of his prophet and doubting jesus as god. (not absolutely sure about that as fact, but pretty sure)


Both books are written by men, for men to control others. All i can say at least the bible profits were not child molesters.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

tell him its genetic.

:laugh:


but the way i understand it is the trinity. Father, son, holy ghost...separate but one.

If any group calls itself Christian but denies any part of the Holy Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) then it is not truly Christian.
The three are ONE and the same.
That is a well known litmus test among Christians. --Tyr

[Syrenn]

If any group calls itself Christian but denies any part of the Holy Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) then it is not truly Christian.
The three are ONE and the same.
That is a well known litmus test among Christians. --Tyr

just an FYI, you dont have to be christian to understand what they think or teach.

[jimnyc]

LOL... tell you friend hes a dick.

The way i understand it... the quran itself references jesus as the son of god. So ask him why he is going against the word of his prophet and doubting jesus as god. (not absolutely sure about that as fact, but pretty sure)


Both books are written by men, for men to control others. All i can say at least the bible profits were not child molesters.

I don't think so. Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God.

[Larrymc]

A Muslim friend asked a genuine question and I don't know how to answer it. He asked if Jesus was the Son of God, and of course I said yes. He then asked, why some state, and even some bumper stickers state - "Jesus is God".

Why sometimes the "Son of God" and at others he IS God?

The way I explained it was that Jesus was sent in God's image, and therefore God, but I'm sure I am wrong. And yes, this friend is testing me, saying Jesus is NOT the son of God, and using this example to claim "not even all Christians can decide if he was the son or God himself".God is the Holy Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, So both Jesus and God Both Apply, in the same way someone may experience the Holy Spirit and refer to it as an experience with God

[DragonStryk72]

A Muslim friend asked a genuine question and I don't know how to answer it. He asked if Jesus was the Son of God, and of course I said yes. He then asked, why some state, and even some bumper stickers state - "Jesus is God".

Why sometimes the "Son of God" and at others he IS God?

The way I explained it was that Jesus was sent in God's image, and therefore God, but I'm sure I am wrong. And yes, this friend is testing me, saying Jesus is NOT the son of God, and using this example to claim "not even all Christians can decide if he was the son or God himself".

Okay, so here it is: Jesus was God in mortal form, but also His son, due to the manner. Christ himself never claimed to be God however..

Basically, both are accurate, so its a bit wonky.

[Voted4Reagan]

I don't think so. Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God.

Same as with the Judaic belief....

as well as the fact that the headscarf is adopted by Muslims from the ancient Jewish Tradition which predates the Byzantines.

coincidence? I think not.

[DragonStryk72]

So, the Father (God), Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost can all be referred to as "God", in representation? God, in order to absolve man of original sin , seen Jesus, his son, imbued with Gods essence, so Christ represents his physical presence. However, God is infinite, and so a mortal form is simply never going to contain Him. The Holy Spirit represents this infinite aspect, devoid of the physical.

[Syrenn]

I don't think so. Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of God.





Isa ( Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): عيسى, Transliteration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic): ʿĪsā ), known as Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) in the New Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament) is considered to be a Messenger of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_%28Islam%29) and the Masih (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masih) (Messiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah)) in Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam#cite_note-1) who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites) (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_%28Islam%29) or Gospel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam#cite_note-2) The belief in Jesus (and all other messengers of God) is required in Islam, and a requirement of being a Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim). The Quran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran) mentions Jesus by name twenty-five times, while it only mentions Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) by name four times.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam#cite_note-4) It states that Jesus was born to Mary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_%28mother_of_Jesus%29) (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic): Maryam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_of_Mary)) as the result of virginal conception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_of_Jesus), a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam) (Arabic: Allah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah)). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle) (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.), all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion) or by any other means, instead, "God raised him unto Himself". Like all prophets in Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam), Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God. Islam rejects the Trinitarian Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity) view that Jesus was God incarnate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation_%28Christianity%29) or the son of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God), that he was ever crucified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion) or resurrected (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_Jesus), or that he ever atoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity) for the sins of mankind. The Quran says that Jesus himself never claimed any of these things, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and God will vindicate him.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam#cite_note-5) The Quran emphasizes that Jesus was a mortal human being who, like all other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread God's message. Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_%28Islam%29)), emphasizing a strict notion of monotheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotheism) (tawhīd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawhid)).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam



yep, wiki agrees.... they teach prophet not "god"


so explain it like this..... just because islam does not teach that mohammad was not a child molester.....does not mean that he was not a child molester.

[jimnyc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam



yep, wiki agrees.... they teach prophet not "god"


so explain it like this..... just because islam does not teach that mohammad was not a child molester.....does not mean that he was not a child molester.

They love Jesus as they were taught, as a Prophet, just not the last Prophet.

And to prove a point, not to start a fight, I brought up the things about Muhammed and Aisha and the age stuff. He told me that if it happened, that means it was God's will, and if it was God's will, how could it be wrong? Of course, then he disagrees that other bad things were God's will then, only what he cherry picks of course.

But I honestly wasn't debating Islam with him, I respect him and his religion and respect his beliefs. It's him that consistently questions Christianity, and the questions lately have been more, and louder, due to the stories with the Pope as of late. It started with me speaking to an older Christian fellow that works there, a mechanic, who's brother is a priest in Milan. And of course my buddy has to listen in and then argue with us! LOL

He also wanted to know why the Vatican was in Italy, and why we don't have a place where Jesus was born or lived, like they do with Mecca. I shrugged my shoulders - but you should have heard the old man, he's not as patient as I am. He said, with a VERY Italian accent - "you wanna do know why we no have anytin where Jesus was born? Because the place is now filled with animales, and it's safer in Italy". And he doesn't say animals like us, but rather "animolees". Fwiw - he messes with the Muslim friends of mine, they all work together for years, so although it sounds bad, they mess with one another too.

This is why you shouldn't discuss politics and religion with friends! Only on DP!!! :lol:

[PostmodernProphet]

I think Christianity has failed to really contemplate what the "one-ness" of the Trinity means.......Jesus is the human incarnation of God.....while he is human and God is not, he is still God and not some additional deity that God has simply created or used.....to the Muslim, the answer is that Jesus is not merely a prophet as Mohammed was.....Jesus was YHWH, that they call Allah.....

[jimnyc]

Also, I am thanking those who answer my questions, not to be a thanks whore, but this was a genuine question and I appreciate the answers. I'm going on 45 and still learning! :)

[PostmodernProphet]

the problem likely arises because the term "Son of God" was not a biological description, but a theological one.......it is a prophetic description of the Messiah, based on Psalm 2


Psalm 21 Why do the nations conspire[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-13947a)]
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.”

4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.”

7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-13955b)];
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

[Syrenn]

They love Jesus as they were taught, as a Prophet, just not the last Prophet.

And to prove a point, not to start a fight, I brought up the things about Muhammed and Aisha and the age stuff. He told me that if it happened, that means it was God's will, and if it was God's will, how could it be wrong? Of course, then he disagrees that other bad things were God's will then, only what he cherry picks of course.

But I honestly wasn't debating Islam with him, I respect him and his religion and respect his beliefs. It's him that consistently questions Christianity, and the questions lately have been more, and louder, due to the stories with the Pope as of late. It started with me speaking to an older Christian fellow that works there, a mechanic, who's brother is a priest in Milan. And of course my buddy has to listen in and then argue with us! LOL

He also wanted to know why the Vatican was in Italy, and why we don't have a place where Jesus was born or lived, like they do with Mecca. I shrugged my shoulders - but you should have heard the old man, he's not as patient as I am. He said, with a VERY Italian accent - "you wanna do know why we no have anytin where Jesus was born? Because the place is now filled with animales, and it's safer in Italy". And he doesn't say animals like us, but rather "animolees". Fwiw - he messes with the Muslim friends of mine, they all work together for years, so although it sounds bad, they mess with one another too.

This is why you shouldn't discuss politics and religion with friends! Only on DP!!! :lol:

i agree... everyone loves to cherry pick the tidbits they want to use or not use.

Good for you calling muhammed as child molester....even if you didnt call him a child molester!


i know the answer...... :laugh:..... they are pissed off they didnt think to call muhammed the son of god. jesus has one up on them.

[Marcus Aurelius]

That was something that confused me too. Saying Jesus (as) was the son and his own father. O.o

You're confused about the Holy Trinity, but not about a prophet who has sex with his 9 year old wife? Really?
Wow.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Not sure why, but my buddy likes to "disprove" things from the Bible and "prove" things from the Quran. That was his latest, Jesus being God, and that we were "confused". He says that there are "scientific" things written in the Quran that are still happening today, and asks, how could these things have been known? Which he says proves that the Quran comes from God. He asks for "proof" from the Bible, similar to what he is talking about, to show that the Bible and Jesus were as miraculous as that.

I point to him Jesus on the cross and the resurrection. He states it's an old tale and truly never happened, and it's just old stories passed along. He also states the same about the miracles. But when I say that things in either book can't be proven unequivocally, he claims that things in the Quran can be proven as such. I don't have enough interest to follow up on his claims, but I won't tell him he is wrong or making it up.

This is exactly what Jahil does. He makes a statement about something in the Qur'aan, and it is 100% factual in his opinion, and you'll never dissuade him from that. However, when someone else does the same thing from the Bible, Jahil claims it cannot be proven and it's just a bunch of made up stories.

[revelarts]

The Idea of the trinty is not something that I understand. and all of the analogies fall short way short IMO.
It is a Paradox. and is acknowledge as such. called a mystery.
Postmodern I think said it best though.
Jesus is God and Man When God becomes a man he doesn't become a separate being, it's additive. And another unsatisfying but sometime helpful analogy is the fact that human can be a father and brother and a son.

But the easiest and briefest reply that comes to me is.
-Ok well right, being a father and a son of yourself is Impossible for a man. But are you daring to limit how God manifest himself? Are you saying that GOD doesn't have the power to do this? And Jesus the Prophets says he is the Son of God and God.

When he spoke to the religious leaders and the people In John 8:

"54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

Why did they pick up stone to kill him here?
It's because he said "I AM" which in the Jewish mind is a certain exclusive designation for God.
For God as the ever existent creator and deliverer. it the name that he used with Moses at the burning bush. When Moses asked in Exodus 3:
3 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+3&version=KJV;NIV#fen-NIV-1594c)] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord,[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+3&version=KJV;NIV#fen-NIV-1595d)] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
“This is my name forever,
the name you shall call me
from generation to generation.

The devout and religious Jews were/are uber sensitive to that designation and knew EXACTLY what Jesus was saying.

Later on Jesus said "I and the Father are ONE" they tried to stone him again but Jesus ask them for what good work do you stone me? and the Religious leaders said John 10:
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus claimed to be God, the son of God, the Son of man, the son of Mary, he claimed to be the King of the Jews, the way the truth and the life and a lot of other things.

Does your Muslim friend believe that Jesus "the prophet" was lying when he said all that?
You mentioned he'd probably say they are the made up parts, the parts he likes are real. But there's more evidence, by way of written text, for those writings of the new testament and the sayings of Jesus than other historical figures of antiquity. there's literally about 100 times more ancient docs that attest to the record of Jesus and the early church than to the emperors of Rome or the Greek philosophers. seriously it's overkill. Your friend just doesn't know what he's saying on that front.

Bottom line God is who he says he is, Jesus said he's the same "I AM", I don't understand how it works, but God confirmed it so I'm on board believing it.

Jesus asked Peter and everyone now 'who do you say that i am?'

[jimnyc]

Does your Muslim friend believe that Jesus "the prophet" was lying when he said all that?

Not lying, just doesn't believe he said such things. He believes the Bible was all written by "mere men" and are just stories passed along from old stories and fables. As he puts it, the Quran was the direct word of God where as the Bible was passed along messages from mere men.

He also says he believes in the Bible and says it's even mentioned in the Quran, but then of course doesn't believe really a word from the Bible.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Not lying, just doesn't believe he said such things. He believes the Bible was all written by "mere men" and are just stories passed along from old stories and fables. As he puts it, the Quran was the direct word of God where as the Bible was passed along messages from mere men.

He also says he believes in the Bible and says it's even mentioned in the Quran, but then of course doesn't believe really a word from the Bible.

Does he not consider Mohammad to be a "mere man"??
Or those that wrote the Koran and the Hadiths?

What you see from him is his rationalizing his faith as being true and everybody else's faith as being imagination and lies. His excuse about "mere men" would only carry weight if he were able to prove the words from Mohammad did indeed come from God!!

Isuggest next time ask him to prove that and do not let him get by with setting a standard that he does not allow others to set in defense of their religion. -Tyr

[Syrenn]

Not lying, just doesn't believe he said such things. He believes the Bible was all written by "mere men" and are just stories passed along from old stories and fables. As he puts it, the Quran was the direct word of God where as the Bible was passed along messages from mere men.

He also says he believes in the Bible and says it's even mentioned in the Quran, but then of course doesn't believe really a word from the Bible.

told you... the muslims are pissed that their story tellers did not think of calling some prophet the son of god...

tell him his god is going to be displease... he is questioning and not believing the word of his god. :laugh:

[aboutime]

A Muslim friend asked a genuine question and I don't know how to answer it. He asked if Jesus was the Son of God, and of course I said yes. He then asked, why some state, and even some bumper stickers state - "Jesus is God".

Why sometimes the "Son of God" and at others he IS God?

The way I explained it was that Jesus was sent in God's image, and therefore God, but I'm sure I am wrong. And yes, this friend is testing me, saying Jesus is NOT the son of God, and using this example to claim "not even all Christians can decide if he was the son or God himself".


jimnyc. Sounds like someone was just trying to make you and me...with other Christians look foolish by asking such things. Yet they frown and become disgusted when we dare to ask such questions about their faith, or religion.

So. My reply to them would be. Not to make any excuses, or to try to explain since FAITH is trust, and belief in the UNSEEN.
Actually. What they are doing is QUESTIONING your faith.
And thankfully. As Christians. We have no need to try and explain, or make excuses.
Our Faith is Our Faith.
If some Christians call Jesus God, and other Christians call Jesus the Son of God.
So be it.
Can I, or you, or those who question our FAITH...prove otherwise????
It's a No Brainer.
If they do not believe as I, You, or Christians believe.
That is their problem. NOT OURS.

[tailfins]

Does he not consider Mohammad to be a "mere man"??
Or those that wrote the Koran and the Hadiths?

What you see from him is his rationalizing his faith as being true and everybody else's faith as being imagination and lies. His excuse about "mere men" would only carry weight if he were able to prove the words from Mohammad did indeed come from God!!

Isuggest next time ask him to prove that and do not let him get by with setting a standard that he does not allow others to set in defense of their religion. -Tyr

Like dmp says in his avatar "Someone on the internet is wrong". Tyr, I will leave that to you to take care of for us.

[aboutime]

i agree... everyone loves to cherry pick the tidbits they want to use or not use.

Good for you calling muhammed as child molester....even if you didnt call him a child molester!


i know the answer...... :laugh:..... they are pissed off they didnt think to call muhammed the son of god. jesus has one up on them.


Syrenn. Some would question using the term 'child molester'. But I tend to get the impression that people like jafar would prefer that accusation
to allow them to hide their "In the closet" tendencies that expose their forbidden gayness
like 4698 who pretends NOT to prefer Men over Women.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Like dmp says in his avatar "Someone on the internet is wrong". Tyr, I will leave that to you to take care of for us.

Everybody can not be right. Somebody has got to be wrong. I will take care of me and mine to the best of my abilities. Not my job to take care of anything for others. We each must make our own way . Best way to do that is to ALWAYS SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH.
Even when the road is wrong at least you are on the right road...
Just be careful about which feel good exit you choose to take as many of them have a no return clause hidden...;)-Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

A Muslim friend asked a genuine question and I don't know how to answer it. He asked if Jesus was the Son of God, and of course I said yes. He then asked, why some state, and even some bumper stickers state - "Jesus is God".

Why sometimes the "Son of God" and at others he IS God?

The way I explained it was that Jesus was sent in God's image, and therefore God, but I'm sure I am wrong. And yes, this friend is testing me, saying Jesus is NOT the son of God, and using this example to claim "not even all Christians can decide if he was the son or God himself".

Jesus is the Son of God and also is a God. God has a family that are also known as Gods.

[Robert A Whit]

I used the Matthew quote above, and these below - as my friend also states there is no mention of Jesus being the Son of God in the Bible.

When Jesus asked his disciple who they thought he was, Simon Peter declared, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" and Jesus rejoiced at this revelation from God that Peter had been given - Matthew 16:15-17.

When on trial before the Sanhedrin, the High Priest asked if he was the Son of God and Jesus replied, "Yes, it is as you say." - Matthew 26:63-64.

Jesus asked the blind man who he had just healed if he believed in the Son of God. The man asked him who the Son of God was and Jesus answered him and said, "You have both seen him and are now talking to him." - John 10:35-38.

Clearly placing Jesus into the family of GODs.

There is more than one GOD and Jesus is the proof.

[Robert A Whit]

I think I have found my answer and will print out this page:



Rest here - http://www.seekgod.org/bible/jesusisgod.html

The quotes you used were pre-Jesus and when stated, there was but one GOD on Earth. Jesus shows up later.

[Robert A Whit]

A Sunday School teacher explained it this way: Substitute "water" for God. Ice is water; Liquid water is water; Steam is water. Jesus, The Father God and the Holy Spirit are different manifestations of the same "element" God.

Interesting how some ignore the actual explanation Jesus gave.

[Abbey Marie]

Not lying, just doesn't believe he said such things. He believes the Bible was all written by "mere men" and are just stories passed along from old stories and fables. As he puts it, the Quran was the direct word of God where as the Bible was passed along messages from mere men.

He also says he believes in the Bible and says it's even mentioned in the Quran, but then of course doesn't believe really a word from the Bible.

Based on the above, I think you are wasting your time discussing your faith with such a man.

[Robert A Whit]

Not sure why, but my buddy likes to "disprove" things from the Bible and "prove" things from the Quran. That was his latest, Jesus being God, and that we were "confused". He says that there are "scientific" things written in the Quran that are still happening today, and asks, how could these things have been known? Which he says proves that the Quran comes from God. He asks for "proof" from the Bible, similar to what he is talking about, to show that the Bible and Jesus were as miraculous as that.

I point to him Jesus on the cross and the resurrection. He states it's an old tale and truly never happened, and it's just old stories passed along. He also states the same about the miracles. But when I say that things in either book can't be proven unequivocally, he claims that things in the Quran can be proven as such. I don't have enough interest to follow up on his claims, but I won't tell him he is wrong or making it up.

GOD had many messengers, or prophets and Mohammed was one of them. We are all the sons of GOD. The Evil were born the sons of GOD but they decided to take an evil course.

People have long used what Prophets say, but some find a way to use the words for evil purposes. Muslims I have talked to say Jesus was also a Prophet and they accept him.

[aboutime]

Based on the above, I think you are wasting your time discussing your faith with such a man.

Abbey. Very well said. Personally. I find being a Christian, and being proud to call myself a Christian a good thing. Especially when non believers insist on asking questions that DEMAND that I must explain, or create some kind of excuse for my Faith.

That is what I find so great about being a Christian. I never need to apologize, or make excuses to ANYONE, and that just drives them nuts because. As a Christian.....I have no need, nor am I required to explain anything to anyone about my Faith.

Then. Look around at all of the other religious faiths represented out there, across the Earth. And it seems. They all have established some kinds of reasons, or excuses to convince others to Believe.

I have no need to do that, ever. Because what, and who I believe in....Never changes.

[Robert A Whit]

They love Jesus as they were taught, as a Prophet, just not the last Prophet.

And to prove a point, not to start a fight, I brought up the things about Muhammed and Aisha and the age stuff. He told me that if it happened, that means it was God's will, and if it was God's will, how could it be wrong? Of course, then he disagrees that other bad things were God's will then, only what he cherry picks of course.

But I honestly wasn't debating Islam with him, I respect him and his religion and respect his beliefs. It's him that consistently questions Christianity, and the questions lately have been more, and louder, due to the stories with the Pope as of late. It started with me speaking to an older Christian fellow that works there, a mechanic, who's brother is a priest in Milan. And of course my buddy has to listen in and then argue with us! LOL

He also wanted to know why the Vatican was in Italy, and why we don't have a place where Jesus was born or lived, like they do with Mecca. I shrugged my shoulders - but you should have heard the old man, he's not as patient as I am. He said, with a VERY Italian accent - "you wanna do know why we no have anytin where Jesus was born? Because the place is now filled with animales, and it's safer in Italy". And he doesn't say animals like us, but rather "animolees". Fwiw - he messes with the Muslim friends of mine, they all work together for years, so although it sounds bad, they mess with one another too.

This is why you shouldn't discuss politics and religion with friends! Only on DP!!! :lol:

Roman Emperor Constantine decided that the official religion of Rome was what we call Christianity. And he laid out the Vatican and caused the catholic church to be built there. English historian Gibbons, using only Roman records, translated Roman history using a double blind form.

He spoke a lot about how this happened.

Some but not all Christians claim the trinity is a test. That can't be true since to believe that denies the words of Jesus.

Besides the same Christians preaching that speak up for the Jews who don't claim to be Christians.

The word Christian speaks of Christ and if one believes in Jesus, you are Christian. The other stuff is just some trying to divide themselves from others. So sad they do that.

[Robert A Whit]

told you... the muslims are pissed that their story tellers did not think of calling some prophet the son of god...

tell him his god is going to be displease... he is questioning and not believing the word of his god. :laugh:

I guess a problem with Hollywood is that Jesus did not end up with the girl or the gold.

[PostmodernProphet]

Clearly placing Jesus into the family of GODs.

There is more than one GOD and Jesus is the proof.

one plus itself is not two......

[PostmodernProphet]

The quotes you used were pre-Jesus and when stated, there was but one GOD on Earth. Jesus shows up later.
except Jesus says he was there before, not later.....revelarts has already provided you with the quote.....

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=624712#post624712)

Clearly placing Jesus into the family of GODs.

There is more than one GOD and Jesus is the proof.



one plus itself is not two......

Jesus did not cry out to himself while he was on the crucifixion cross. He spoke to GOD.

But this is similar to you as a youth speaking to your father. Both humans, both different people.

[Robert A Whit]

except Jesus says he was there before, not later.....revelarts has already provided you with the quote.....

Jesus, you, I and the Muslim asking questions were there or here from the beginning. I suppose I should have read all of Revelarts comments.

But to stay in context, the idea that Jesus and GOD are the same GOD is not true. Both are different. As it should be since GOD assigned Jesus to a task on Earth.

[PostmodernProphet]

Jesus did not cry out to himself while he was on the crucifixion cross. He spoke to GOD.


through incarnation he suffered a separation from God....but he isn't a new, different God......that's why they call it the three in one instead of the three in two.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Jesus, you, I and the Muslim asking questions were there or here from the beginning.

you will have to speak for yourself....I wasn't born until 1952........

[PostmodernProphet]

the idea that Jesus and GOD are the same GOD is not true.

I will accept the fact you believe that....not that I do or ever will.....I will note, however, that you are straying dangerously close to stating that which causes many to believe Mormonism is not a part of Christianity......

[PostmodernProphet]

As it should be since GOD assigned Jesus to a task on Earth.

that isn't what Christianity teaches.....we believe that God CAME to earth as Jesus to perform a task......

[Robert A Whit]

that isn't what Christianity teaches.....we believe that God CAME to earth as Jesus to perform a task......

That is not what the Bible says. Besides, in the long run, what you believe won't matter. It is as if you think it is some theory.

I am a Christian and don't put any faith in your claims.

One of my proofs is that Jesus spoke to GOD while on the Cross. Maybe some think he was merely mad.

[stevecanuck]

Not sure why, but my buddy likes to "disprove" things from the Bible and "prove" things from the Quran. That was his latest, Jesus being God, and that we were "confused". He says that there are "scientific" things written in the Quran that are still happening today, and asks, how could these things have been known? Which he says proves that the Quran comes from God. He asks for "proof" from the Bible, similar to what he is talking about, to show that the Bible and Jesus were as miraculous as that.

I point to him Jesus on the cross and the resurrection. He states it's an old tale and truly never happened, and it's just old stories passed along. He also states the same about the miracles. But when I say that things in either book can't be proven unequivocally, he claims that things in the Quran can be proven as such. I don't have enough interest to follow up on his claims, but I won't tell him he is wrong or making it up.

If you want a good laugh, just have a look at miraclesofthequran to see what passes for scientific revelations in the qur'an.

For example look at the explanation of black holes and tell me how in any way the quoted verses describe them. If your friend wants to put some weight behind his claims, just ask him to provide some older tasfirs that interpret the qur'an to match the "miracles" described in this site. Don't hold your breath.

[aboutime]

Why must anyone on this thread continue to argue about this topic?

Christianity and Christians have been around more than two thousand years, and the names Jesus, and God
have become synonymous with the Bible, and the Teachings of Christ.

Continuing to argue about who said what, or did, or was is pure folly, if you think about it.

Is anyone qualified to actually provide any proof...other than what is in the Bible to back up your declarations, or offerings of facts???

If so. Tell us what Church, or Religious site you claim as your home where the Definitive Answers can be found, and believed.

[Robert A Whit]

AT, you don't like to discuss things so you want topics shut down.

Feeling as you do, why do you involve yourself in topics that you want shut down?

[aboutime]

Would someone like to answer Robert for me? If I respond. I will be blamed for Picking On him.

[jimnyc]

Based on the above, I think you are wasting your time discussing your faith with such a man.

Funny thing is, I do consider him a friend, I just don't know how we can be SO far apart on topics like this though. He's more emotional than I am about it, and adamant, but I'm guilty of not stopping the conversations before they go too far. I've never judged him, or my other friends there, based on their religion. They are normally for the most part cool with me too. But IF it's brought up, they are very set in their ways and not in the slightest bit shy about stating the superiority of their religion.

But I think I can still be friends regardless of such differences. He just needs to do a little "live and let live" of his own. People with different religious beliefs should be able to get along, just like people with different political beliefs.

[jimnyc]

Guys, please, let's not let bickering keep taking over threads? I'm not taking sides, I just want to avoid it happening more and more. Please, if someone wants to fight, get personal, attack, take of course - please start a thread in the cage with that other person, you can PM them the thread or even mention it in the original thread. People are starting to mention it more and more that they are seeing this interrupting threads. All we ask is to take the off topic bickering elsewhere when it happens.

[aboutime]

Funny thing is, I do consider him a friend, I just don't know how we can be SO far apart on topics like this though. He's more emotional than I am about it, and adamant, but I'm guilty of not stopping the conversations before they go too far. I've never judged him, or my other friends there, based on their religion. They are normally for the most part cool with me too. But IF it's brought up, they are very set in their ways and not in the slightest bit shy about stating the superiority of their religion.

But I think I can still be friends regardless of such differences. He just needs to do a little "live and let live" of his own. People with different religious beliefs should be able to get along, just like people with different political beliefs.

Jim. Most times. SILENCE is GOLDEN. As I have said in my previous posts. We have nothing to prove. Nothing to make excuses about. Our Faith is what makes us who we are. No need to prove anything to anyone else. Even when they feel superior, or insist they are.

Great thing about being a Christian is. There is only one being we know of who needs to know how we feel.

[aboutime]

Guys, please, let's not let bickering keep taking over threads? I'm not taking sides, I just want to avoid it happening more and more. Please, if someone wants to fight, get personal, attack, take of course - please start a thread in the cage with that other person, you can PM them the thread or even mention it in the original thread. People are starting to mention it more and more that they are seeing this interrupting threads. All we ask is to take the off topic bickering elsewhere when it happens.

jimnyc. That is exactly what I am trying to avoid. If you see my response as anything else. What more can I do?

[taft2012]

Please, if someone wants to fight, get personal, attack, take of course -.

Jimmy is a big zithead. :laugh:

[taft2012]

.

One of my proofs is that Jesus spoke to GOD while on the Cross. Maybe some think he was merely mad.

This is the same mentality that calls Catholics "cannibals."

[Robert A Whit]

Guys, please, let's not let bickering keep taking over threads? I'm not taking sides, I just want to avoid it happening more and more. Please, if someone wants to fight, get personal, attack, take of course - please start a thread in the cage with that other person, you can PM them the thread or even mention it in the original thread. People are starting to mention it more and more that they are seeing this interrupting threads. All we ask is to take the off topic bickering elsewhere when it happens.

Jim, I did not start bickering. I read AT post that he did not want a topic like this topic to be discussed based on it not doing anybody a bit of good.

My question to him, that he refuses to answer, why then AT post on a topic you believe is a total waste of time?

I don't see my question or his to be a fight, but just part of his discussion. Till he brought it up, I was content to play a small part and stick to the topic.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=624748#post624748)

.

One of my proofs is that Jesus spoke to GOD while on the Cross. Maybe some think he was merely mad.



This is the same mentality that calls Catholics "cannibals."

Since I have not called them cannibals, the claim does not apply to my post. Not sure how you attached that wild idea to my discussion.

[Robert A Whit]

Jim. Most times. SILENCE is GOLDEN. As I have said in my previous posts. We have nothing to prove. Nothing to make excuses about. Our Faith is what makes us who we are. No need to prove anything to anyone else. Even when they feel superior, or insist they are.

Great thing about being a Christian is. There is only one being we know of who needs to know how we feel.

OK, you said that twice. I am waiting for number 3. This is the old tell em now to make a clock routine it looks like to me.

[Kathianne]

Interesting thread. Seen more sides of folks, none for the better with a few exceptions.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Interesting thread. Seen more sides of folks, none for the better with a few exceptions.

I've seen exceptions. Not sure that I am one but have seen a few here myself...
Will pm you a question...-;)

[revelarts]

I will accept the fact you believe that....not that I do or ever will.....I will note, however, that you are straying dangerously close to stating that which causes many to believe Mormonism is not a part of Christianity......

"dangerously close"? Um I'm thinking that line may have been crossed.
"family of Gods" ? what u talking bout willis?

Deuteronomy 4
35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other....
35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other.

6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Isaiah 45:
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.

18 For this is what the Lord says— he who created the heavens,
he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth,
he founded it; he did not create it to be empty,
but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the Lord, and there is no other.

...who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

46:9 Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.

You know after reading that i tend to think there might be one God. Am i misreading it?
And again the book of John make it clear he's not talking about a "family of gods".

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
...14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

It's fine if you don't believe it, but it just not true to say the Bible does not teach that there is ONLY one real GOD, and that Jesus is ONE with Him...and in fact IS God.

[Robert A Whit]

Interesting thread. Seen more sides of folks, none for the better with a few exceptions.

I learned long ago to not pass judgment on people over religion. I wish more understood it and did the same thing. I also learned not to pop in and make vague remarks.

[revelarts]

and just to mention, OK sure other people do worship other spirit powers but what does the Bible say about Idols and the powers behind them and other gods.

1 Corinthians 10:19-21
19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons.

Psalm 106:36-38
36 They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them.
37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to devils.

and Good Angels refused to be worshiped.
Revelation 19:
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

as an aside the Apostle Peter Didn't accept worship either.
Act 10: 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshiped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

However Jesus accepted people's worship on many occasions.
draw your own conclusions

[tailfins]

I learned long ago to not pass judgment on people over religion. I wish more understood it and did the same thing. I also learned not to pop in and make vague remarks.

You're missing out myfrien, it can have enormous entertainment value. Don't knock it 'til you try it!

[Kathianne]

You're missing out myfrien, it can have enormous entertainment value. Don't knock it 'til you try it!

Correct you are, not to mention how many 'judgments' he's already made in the past 24 hours. He couldn't find his ass with two hands.

[aboutime]

Correct you are, not to mention how many 'judgments' he's already made in the past 24 hours. He couldn't find his ass with two hands.


Kathianne. At the risk of being punished, or accused of something...again. How long are we to idly stand by, and pretend WE ARE the bad guys here. And that means for just about every topic, subject, post, and thread we might choose to contribute to as members???

It's almost as if I feel limited, or being prevented from taking part in topics that interest me. If for no other reason than I might accidentally be accused of insulting, or picking on someone.
More frequently now. I must second-guess myself as to whether to bother responding, or face the music.

[Robert A Whit]

and just to mention, OK sure other people do worship other spirit powers but what does the Bible say about Idols and the powers behind them and other gods.

1 Corinthians 10:19-21
19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons.


Robert: Q: From what creator do demons spring from?

What I find interesting is how some of us seem to read such messages as if they were addressed to us. For instance, I have at no point contacted demons; nor seen any.

Psalm 106:36-38
36 They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them.
37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to devils.


Robert: Now the Jew's Bible is being used. I find that also strange. Would a person be valid by switching to the Quran or the Book of Mormon? If not, why not.

and Good Angels refused to be worshiped.
Revelation 19:
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”


Robert:That is my belief system in short. I am nothing higher than a fellow servant.

as an aside the Apostle Peter Didn't accept worship either.
Act 10: 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshiped him.
26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

However Jesus accepted people's worship on many occasions.
draw your own conclusions*

[Robert A Whit]

Correct you are, not to mention how many 'judgments' he's already made in the past 24 hours. He couldn't find his ass with two hands.

It will be interesting should you try to prove that remark about religions or those who proclaim same.

Few pass judgment as do you and About Time.

[Robert A Whit]

Kathianne. At the risk of being punished, or accused of something...again. How long are we to idly stand by, and pretend WE ARE the bad guys here. And that means for just about every topic, subject, post, and thread we might choose to contribute to as members???

It's almost as if I feel limited, or being prevented from taking part in topics that interest me. If for no other reason than I might accidentally be accused of insulting, or picking on someone.
More frequently now. I must second-guess myself as to whether to bother responding, or face the music.

Who is picking on you or indeed, who is picking on Kathianne? I note she made a snarky comment.

[revelarts]

*

?

Robert: Q: From what creator do demons spring from?
the other verses clearly state there is only one creator.


What I find interesting is how some of us seem to read such messages as if they were addressed to us. For instance, I have at no point contacted demons; nor seen any.
the the people who worshiped idols would probably say the same.
But as far as the Bible being for us. well it's all for us not all is to us. In this case it only applies to Those who worship , believe in or want to become other gods.


Robert: Now the Jew's Bible is being used. I find that also strange. Would a person be valid by switching to the Quran or the Book of Mormon? If not, why not.
For A person calling themselves a Christian switching to the Quran or book of Mormon to contradict Jesus's "Jew Bible" . yes it would be, for obvious reasons. But to to mention 1 reason, Since without the Jews Bible you get no book of Mormon and probably no Quran, at least in it's present form, since BOTH are strange derivative offshoots of the old and new testaments of the Jews.

Robert:That is my belief system in short. I am nothing higher than a fellow servant.
But in a longer version do you think there are Other Gods equal to or possibly higher than the God that created the Earth? That's what you seemed to have have said at one point. I don't want to misrepresent you Robert if it's not what you believe.
But there's no doubt it is what some Mormon leaders have taught.

[Robert A Whit]

?

Robert: Q: From what creator do demons spring from?
the other verses clearly state there is only one creator.


What I find interesting is how some of us seem to read such messages as if they were addressed to us. For instance, I have at no point contacted demons; nor seen any.
the the people who worshiped idols would probably say the same.
But as far as the Bible being for us. well it's all for us not all is to us. In this case it only applies to Those who worship , believe in or want to become other gods.


Robert: Now the Jew's Bible is being used. I find that also strange. Would a person be valid by switching to the Quran or the Book of Mormon? If not, why not.
For A person calling themselves a Christian switching to the Quran or book of Mormon to contradict Jesus's "Jew Bible" . yes it would be, for obvious reasons. But to to mention 1 reason, Since without the Jews Bible you get no book of Mormon and probably no Quran, at least in it's present form, since BOTH are strange derivative offshoots of the old and new testaments of the Jews.

Robert:That is my belief system in short. I am nothing higher than a fellow servant.
But in a longer version do you think there are Other Gods equal to or possibly higher than the God that created the Earth? That's what you seemed to have have said at one point. I don't want to misrepresent you Robert if it's not what you believe.
But there's no doubt it is what some Mormon leaders have taught.

What if the Book of Mormon and the Quran agree with your comment number one. Would that validate them as true texts?

If one can't see demons, what basis is there to presume they exist?

If the Bible only applies to those whom already agree, what value is it?

Statement 3 puzzles me given there is the claim of calling oneself a Christian. I call myself one yet others assume that is not true. Can you explain that? I did not say to turn to the Book of Mormon or the Quran to contradict anything. But we do know that the old testament contradicts the new testament yet we know of Christians who love the Jews and fully agree with the Jews despite being contradicted by them.

I accept a family of GODs but can't claim I rank them. I consider Jesus to be an equal God to his father but do not presume to know any ranking nor make claims one ranks higher nor lower.

I simply accept GOD as well as Jesus.

[logroller]

That is not what the Bible says. Besides, in the long run, what you believe won't matter. It is as if you think it is some theory.

I am a Christian and don't put any faith in your claims.

One of my proofs is that Jesus spoke to GOD while on the Cross. Maybe some think he was merely mad.
What you're talking about, multiple Gods, runs contrary to Abrahamic faiths as monotheistic, which is the foundation of Judaism, Christianty and Islam.
What is "the Bible" to you? As far as I am aware, the Bible refers to the Old Testament and New Testament. Your so-called proof is documented in the Bible, which also states that Jesus said he and God were the same. As proof, I submit that he was crucified for stating just that. That He was God and His resurrection are the foundation of Christianity. Reject that all you want, it doesn't change what Christians are.

[Robert A Whit]

What you're talking about, multiple Gods, runs contrary to Abrahamic faiths as monotheistic, which is the foundation of Judaism, Christianty and Islam.
What is "the Bible" to you? As far as I am aware, the Bible refers to the Old Testament and New Testament. Your so-called proof is documented in the Bible, which also states that Jesus said he and God were the same. As proof, I submit that he was crucified for stating just that. That He was God and His resurrection are the foundation of Christianity. Reject that all you want, it doesn't change what Christians are.

Equal GODs more than merely multiple gods. A lot changed after the Jewish texts spoke of Abraham. Per the old testament, one can rule out the new testament were we to stand on Abraham. I expect the Jews are not Christians for that reason.

The Bible is composed of the OT/NT and Book of Mormon as far as I can determine. I can't locate any proof that Jesus claimed he was both Jesus and his father. He spoke to his Father when he was on the cross. I believe Jesus is also a GOD. There is no reason why there are not many GODS but only of the same family of GODs rather than a GOD over this or that. This is not some contest. I cite your final remark.

It is when conflict is introduced into conversations that people get stubborn and won't listen to reason. I just accept how it appears in the Bible.

[logroller]

What if the Book of Mormon and the Quran agree with your comment number one. Would that validate them as true texts?
.
which comment; that there is but One God?
Not necessarily, but it certainly wouldn't validate your position of multiple gods. Affirming the consequent is a fallacious exercise. Like saying: Jews don't believe Jesus was God, Muslims don't believe Jesus was God; so Jews and Muslims are the same. They are not the same. Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe there is one God...doesn't mean they're the same, nor even that they're right; Just that they are monotheistic.

[logroller]

Equal GODs more than merely multiple gods. A lot changed after the Jewish texts spoke of Abraham. Per the old testament, one can rule out the new testament were we to stand on Abraham. I expect the Jews are not Christians for that reason.

The Bible is composed of the OT/NT and Book of Mormon as far as I can determine. I can't locate any proof that Jesus claimed he was both Jesus and his father. He spoke to his Father when he was on the cross. I believe Jesus is also a GOD. There is no reason why there are not many GODS but only of the same family of GODs rather than a GOD over this or that. This is not some contest. I cite your final remark.

It is when conflict is introduced into conversations that people get stubborn and won't listen to reason. I just accept how it appears in the Bible.
Jews are not Christians because they do not believe that Jesus was the Son the God, the Messiah, born of a virgin etc etc. That they rejected him is actually fulfillment of the Old Testament Scripture. see: Isaiah 53.

So far as one. Do you accept this--
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." I even verified that on the lds scripture site.
For what transgression do you think Jesus was crucified? *Please cite biblical text where possible.

[revelarts]

Robert A Whit: What if the Book of Mormon and the Quran agree with your comment number one. Would that validate them as true texts?
log had a great answer.
I'll just add, agreeing with some facts will not validate the whole.

Robert A Whit: If one can't see demons, what basis is there to presume they exist?
Have you seen God?

Robert A Whit:If the Bible only applies to those whom already agree, what value is it?
People don't have to agree with gravity, but if they jump off a building they'll find out it applies to them. and understand it does have value to their lives.


Robert A Whit:Statement 3 puzzles me given there is the claim of calling oneself a Christian. I call myself one yet others assume that is not true. Can you explain that?
The answers comes in the definition of the word christian.
to take it out of a contentious realm. Lets say I called myself a FOOTBALL fan. but some one ask me what's your favorite part of the game. And I say
---the part where they hit the ball with the bat and run the bases!
They tell me that's not "football". I say, they are wrong that is football . There's a ball, they run, there's a field, there are players, see it's FOOTBALL. That's what my family has called called Football for generations. I'm a football fan , why don't you include me when you when i tell you I'm a football fan?
It's fine that I call it Football but it's not really American Football or Soccer/World Football by older established definitions.


I did not say to turn to the Book of Mormon or the Quran to contradict anything. But we do know that the old testament contradicts the new testament yet we know of Christians who love the Jews and fully agree with the Jews despite being contradicted by them.
The Old testament doesn't contradict the new testament, people say that a lot but usually don't give specifics, it's just in the air. Like Jesus was born in December, (which is not true).


Robert A Whit: I accept a family of GODs but can't claim I rank them. I consider Jesus to be an equal God to his father but do not presume to know any ranking nor make claims one ranks higher nor lower.
I simply accept GOD as well as Jesus.

I'd just refer you back to Jesus' Jew Bible.
and post #71 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?39772-Question-for-Christians&p=624793#post624793)

there is one God.... no other gods... I Am/I Am... the Word was God ... God dwelt among us..

[Abbey Marie]

Funny thing is, I do consider him a friend, I just don't know how we can be SO far apart on topics like this though. He's more emotional than I am about it, and adamant, but I'm guilty of not stopping the conversations before they go too far. I've never judged him, or my other friends there, based on their religion. They are normally for the most part cool with me too. But IF it's brought up, they are very set in their ways and not in the slightest bit shy about stating the superiority of their religion.

But I think I can still be friends regardless of such differences. He just needs to do a little "live and let live" of his own. People with different religious beliefs should be able to get along, just like people with different political beliefs.

I didn't say you shouldn't be his friend.

[PostmodernProphet]

That is not what the Bible says.
mine does....



One of my proofs is that Jesus spoke to GOD while on the Cross.

and one of mine is that Jesus said he was God......if I have to choose whether to take his word for it or yours, guess what.......


I can't locate any proof that Jesus claimed he was both Jesus and his father.

why not?....revelarts quoted them for you.....

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

mine does....



and one of mine is that Jesus said he was God......if I have to choose whether to take his word for it or yours, guess what.......



why not?....revelarts quoted them for you.....

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-one-god.htm

The one God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit
Passages that say there is only one God:


"For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one [echad] flesh. " Genesis 2:24
"there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10
"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35
"Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39
"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4
"You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22
"For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32
"Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60
"You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15
"O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20
"You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6
"For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31
"You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20
"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10
"'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8
"I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5
"Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14
"I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18
"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9
"And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one [hen] flesh"? " Matthew 19:5
"But do not be called Rabbi; for One [hen] is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matthew 23:8
"Do not be called leaders; for One [hen] is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:10
""The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; " Mark 12:29
"you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?" John 5:44
"I and the Father are one [hen]." John 10:30
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God" John 17:3
"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one[hen]" John 17:22
"since indeed God is one [hen]" Romans 3:30
"to the only [monos] wise God, Amen." Romans 16:27
"there is no God but one [hen]" 1 Corinthians 8:4
"yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we existthrough Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6
"Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen]." Galatians 3:20
"There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God" 1 Timothy 1:17
"which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16
"For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5
"You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19
"For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4
"the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." Jude 2

[fj1200]

Does he not consider Mohammad to be a "mere man"??
Or those that wrote the Koran and the Hadiths?

What you see from him is his rationalizing his faith as being true and everybody else's faith as being imagination and lies. His excuse about "mere men" would only carry weight if he were able to prove the words from Mohammad did indeed come from God!!

Isuggest next time ask him to prove that and do not let him get by with setting a standard that he does not allow others to set in defense of their religion. -Tyr

Have you proven the Bible as divinely inspired yet?

[revelarts]

Have you proven the Bible as divinely inspired yet?

that's another thread

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Have you proven the Bible as divinely inspired yet?

Have you proven that it is not yet?

A muslim's faith is based upon the teachings of a child molester pervert. And Islam teaches slay your enemies, force their conversion or kill them.
I think I'll stay with the religion that teaches love your enemies instead of promoting violence.
Even a doofus like you has hope with the bible. The muslims would happily slay you....hhmmmm-;)

edit-- Start another thread for more wisdom to be wasted upon you.

[fj1200]

Have you proven that it is not yet?

A muslim's faith is based upon the teachings of a child molester pervert. And Islam teaches slay your enemies, force their conversion or kill them.
I think I'll stay with the religion that teaches love your enemies instead of promoting violence.
Even a doofus like you has hope with the bible. The muslims would happily slay you....hhmmmm-;)

edit-- Start another thread for more wisdom to be wasted upon you.

I'm pretty sure the thread would be wasted if I was to expect wisdom.

But of course you miss the point if you expect one to prove divine inspiration when you can't do the same.

[fj1200]

that's another thread

Not when one relies on it as basis for one's argument.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm pretty sure the thread would be wasted if I was to expect wisdom.

But of course you miss the point if you expect one to prove divine inspiration when you can't do the same.

I did not ask for proof from a muslim. History records the child molesting from their favorite boy and his CHARACTER LEADS TO REJECTION OF HIS RANTINGS FOR ME..

I'D SAY IT IS YOU MISSING THE POINT.
Faith in God proves to the individual that God is real. Once that is proven God's words are not subject to judgement by sarcastic unbelievers in any way that has any importance..

A man only need to prove to himself.. It is clear that you missed that and haven't a clue. Presenting truth to others for their consideration does not compel the presenter to force their acceptance. In fact, truth (spiritual truth)stands on its own to either be accepted or rejected.
That you reject so much is your problem not mine..:laugh:-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Not when one relies on it as basis for one's argument.

^^^^^ TRANSLATION-- Stuck my foot in my big mouth , got called on it and am not about to remove it..:laugh2:

Start the thread coward....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Give us the great benefit of your massive brainpower..:laugh2:--Tyr

[revelarts]

Not when one relies on it as basis for one's argument.

It would take some time to do properly FJ.
be nice to cover it in one place. It's an important question.

BUT frankly it's difficult enough to get people to read what the Bible says and understand what it says. even without them believing it's inspired.

See above conversation: the Bible says there's one God and Jesus says he's God.
People dispute what it says on it's face.

It'd be great to get people to just agree on what it says.

But many who have come to Bible as skeptics have at least looked honestly at what the words say and have checked them as history 1st, and found them reliable and vast.
At that point it becomes another issue.
Do you believe that Jesus is a liar or a misinformed religious nut.
If either one of those is true then you can discount the Bible's inspiration IMO.

and eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

[fj1200]

^^^^^ TRANSLATION-- Stuck my foot in my big mouth , got called on it and am not about to remove it..:laugh2:

Start the thread coward....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Give us the great benefit of your massive brainpower..:laugh2:--Tyr

I'd say the foot was clearly yours. \/


I did not ask for proof from a muslim. History records the child molesting from their favorite boy and his CHARACTER LEADS TO REJECTION OF HIS RANTINGS FOR ME..



... if he were able to prove the words from Mohammad did indeed come from God!!

Isuggest next time ask him to prove that... -Tyr

BTW, why would I start a thread I have no intention of proving?


I'D SAY IT IS YOU MISSING THE POINT.
Faith in God proves to the individual that God is real. Once that is proven God's words are not subject to judgement by sarcastic unbelievers in any way that has any importance..

A man only need to prove to himself.. It is clear that you missed that and haven't a clue. Presenting truth to others for their consideration does not compel the presenter to force their acceptance. In fact, truth (spiritual truth)stands on its own to either be accepted or rejected.
That you reject so much is your problem not mine..:laugh:-Tyr

I'm glad you've proven it to yourself; that's all that matters.

You could also point to what I've rejected.

[fj1200]

It would take some time to do properly FJ.
be nice to cover it in one place. It's an important question.

BUT frankly it's difficult enough to get people to read what the Bible says and understand what it says. even without them believing it's inspired.

I would be interested in hearing the discussion. Even then getting the people to understand what it says is difficult because it says different things to different people; generally with four different gospels speaking to different groups and specifically the story of the rich young man/ruler emphasizing different aspects of the story. And let's not get started on interpretation from Greek/Aramaic/etc. into multiple English versions. But I digress...

[revelarts]

I would be interested in hearing the discussion. Even then getting the people to understand what it says is difficult because it says different things to different people; generally with four different gospels speaking to different groups and specifically the story of the rich young man/ruler emphasizing different aspects of the story. And let's not get started on interpretation from Greek/Aramaic/etc. into multiple English versions. But I digress...


lol.

yeah i'd be a great discussion.

As far as meaning different things to different people etc well.
here's my thing MOST of what in the Bible is not something that feeling or POV would change.

"...Jesus went with his disciples to Jerusalem..."
the interpretation is not going to change with translations or peoples gut feelings.
Most of the Bible is like that.

Interpretation is usually only a problem when people try to shoe horn in meaning to fit their preconceived ideas, pet positions or modern thought. if you let the original text say what it says in context of the writing and the period. Most honest folks will end up in the same place. some may not like what it says but at least we can know what it says.

some areas are a bit less solid, however the overall picture you'll get is what traditional Christians and Jews have taught for 1000s of years.

[PostmodernProphet]

Have you proven the Bible as divinely inspired yet?

have you proven that atheists are rational yet?......

[fj1200]

lol.

yeah i'd be a great discussion.

As far as meaning different things to different people etc well.
here's my thing MOST of what in the Bible is not something that feeling or POV would change.

"...Jesus went with his disciples to Jerusalem..."
the interpretation is not going to change with translations or peoples gut feelings.
Most of the Bible is like that.

Interpretation is usually only a problem when people try to shoe horn in meaning to fit their preconceived ideas, pet positions or modern thought. if you let the original text say what it says in context of the writing and the period. Most honest folks will end up in the same place. some may not like what it says but at least we can know what it says.

some areas are a bit less solid, however the overall picture you'll get is what traditional Christians and Jews have taught for 1000s of years.

With all due respect questions of faith do not hinge on your example, they hinge on the marginal translations and cherry picking of verses. It's always interesting when the original Greek, for example, is looked at when discussing particular passages.

[PostmodernProphet]

Not when one relies on it as basis for one's argument.

I'm pretty sure that when the issue is "what does the Bible say about"......its valid to use the Bible as a source even for those who reject it as divinely inspired.....

[fj1200]

have you proven that atheists are rational yet?......

Have I said that I would?


I'm pretty sure that when the issue is "what does the Bible say about"......its valid to use the Bible as a source even for those who reject it as divinely inspired.....

Interesting. But out of context.

[jimnyc]

Kathianne. At the risk of being punished, or accused of something...again. How long are we to idly stand by, and pretend WE ARE the bad guys here. And that means for just about every topic, subject, post, and thread we might choose to contribute to as members???

It's almost as if I feel limited, or being prevented from taking part in topics that interest me. If for no other reason than I might accidentally be accused of insulting, or picking on someone.
More frequently now. I must second-guess myself as to whether to bother responding, or face the music.

Having an off topic most moved is now "facing the music"? And who said anyone was a bad guy? Because I asked that the fighting in these threads stop? And you're hearing this in every topic, subject, post & thread? Talk about your all time exaggerations! Just let it go please. All I asked is that the bickering stop, and that was addressed to EVERYONE.

[jimnyc]

I didn't say you shouldn't be his friend.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did. I was just pointing it out, so that others didn't think this was a "bash Muslim" attempt by me, that it was legit questioning, and he is a friend of mine. I was clarifying, but didn't mean to make it sound like a correction. :)

[PostmodernProphet]

Have I said that I would?



Interesting. But out of context.


contrasted with your post, which was out of context, but not interesting.....

[fj1200]

contrasted with your post, which was out of context, but not interesting.....

Then you misread. But that's OK.

[PostmodernProphet]

Then you misread. But that's OK.

given that there is nothing in the argument that requires anyone to believe the Bible is divinely inspired, and no one had volunteered prior to your post to prove that it is divinely inspired.....what makes you argue your post was in any way relevant?.....

what I see is just another atheist who objected to people talking about religion who, instead of simply not reading the thread felt compelled to derail it......I suppose its cheaper than starting a SC case, but it makes me wonder what it is about atheism that makes you people such assholes........

[fj1200]

given that there is nothing in the argument that requires anyone to believe the Bible is divinely inspired, and no one had volunteered prior to your post to prove that it is divinely inspired.....what makes you argue your post was in any way relevant?.....

Are you reading the hole thread or just bits?


His excuse about "mere men" would only carry weight if he were able to prove the words from Mohammad did indeed come from God!!


what I see is just another atheist who objected to people talking about religion who, instead of simply not reading the thread felt compelled to derail it......I suppose its cheaper than starting a SC case, but it makes me wonder what it is about atheism that makes you people such assholes........

What atheist are you talking about?

[Abbey Marie]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did. I was just pointing it out, so that others didn't think this was a "bash Muslim" attempt by me, that it was legit questioning, and he is a friend of mine. I was clarifying, but didn't mean to make it sound like a correction. :)


No prob, I was just clarifying too. :thumb:

[Robert A Whit]

which comment; that there is but One God?
Not necessarily, but it certainly wouldn't validate your position of multiple gods. Affirming the consequent is a fallacious exercise. Like saying: Jews don't believe Jesus was God, Muslims don't believe Jesus was God; so Jews and Muslims are the same. They are not the same. Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe there is one God...doesn't mean they're the same, nor even that they're right; Just that they are monotheistic.

God is like having a head chef. There are other chefs working under the head, but what you are saying would mean Jesus is no God. And of course Jesus is a God. Also, how about the part of the Jews Bible saying God created man in his own image? Sounds like we might be closer to GODs than commonly admitted.

[Robert A Whit]

Jews are not Christians because they do not believe that Jesus was the Son the God, the Messiah, born of a virgin etc etc. That they rejected him is actually fulfillment of the Old Testament Scripture. see: Isaiah 53.

So far as one. Do you accept this--
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." I even verified that on the lds scripture site.
For what transgression do you think Jesus was crucified? *Please cite biblical text where possible.

I am not going to drift off into quoting text. I do have the Bible in several modes; print, CD and audio tape but you may know text better than I and you then ought to know the text. I speak in ideas gleaned from the Bible as well as discussions I have been party to. I don't pretend to smugly claim I am the only right source. I am sure to make errors.

In John, since Jesus is GODs son, and came to earth to handle a task, certainly they are one of purpose.

[Robert A Whit]

Robert A Whit: What if the Book of Mormon and the Quran agree with your comment number one. Would that validate them as true texts?
log had a great answer. Because you agreed is why, not because it is true. Next comment below is just what I am talking about ...
I'll just add, agreeing with some facts will not validate the whole.

Robert A Whit: If one can't see demons, what basis is there to presume they exist?
Have you seen God?

Is that your best argument?

Robert A Whit:If the Bible only applies to those whom already agree, what value is it?
People don't have to agree with gravity, but if they jump off a building they'll find out it applies to them. and understand it does have value to their lives.

Is that your best argument?

Robert A Whit:Statement 3 puzzles me given there is the claim of calling oneself a Christian. I call myself one yet others assume that is not true. Can you explain that?
The answers comes in the definition of the word christian.
to take it out of a contentious realm. Lets say I called myself a FOOTBALL fan. but some one ask me what's your favorite part of the game. And I say
---the part where they hit the ball with the bat and run the bases!
They tell me that's not "football". I say, they are wrong that is football . There's a ball, they run, there's a field, there are players, see it's FOOTBALL. That's what my family has called called Football for generations. I'm a football fan , why don't you include me when you when i tell you I'm a football fan?
It's fine that I call it Football but it's not really American Football or Soccer/World Football by older established definitions.


Is that your best argument? While sort of OK, I don't suspect it passes the Plato test. I did not offer a definition other than to say when one accepts Jesus as GODs son and accepts the teachings he left for us, that seems to me to be enough to say one is Christian. It is not a place, but the journey. We are not perfect by far, thus to be Christian does not imply one is perfect, but is on the journey. Atheists do not come close to following the path. A wise person does not make this decision for me or others based only on your personal thinking pattern. You don't do the job of GOD nor Jesus. I for instance accept that Catholics got off the path but in General I think they run close enough to the path that they will come out just fine, as well as the Jews and Muslims et al.

I did not say to turn to the Book of Mormon or the Quran to contradict anything. But we do know that the old testament contradicts the new testament yet we know of Christians who love the Jews and fully agree with the Jews despite being contradicted by them.
The Old testament doesn't contradict the new testament, people say that a lot but usually don't give specifics, it's just in the air. Like Jesus was born in December, (which is not true).


Actually, one has to say that it is the NT that contradicts and where the newer does not agree with the older, that is a contradiction. Matter of fact, in the gospels, they also do not agree as to all alleged facts. This however seems not to bother some as it seems to not bother them that the Jews do not teach Christian theology and do not agree with it. Yet Christians support Jews. That is a contradiction.

My message to readers is not that one ought to discard the Bible, but please, end the habit of sitting on the throne pretending you are kings. We are all fallible.

Robert A Whit: I accept a family of GODs but can't claim I rank them. I consider Jesus to be an equal God to his father but do not presume to know any ranking nor make claims one ranks higher nor lower.
I simply accept GOD as well as Jesus.

I'd just refer you back to Jesus' Jew Bible.
and post #71 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?39772-Question-for-Christians&p=624793#post624793)

there is one God.... no other gods... I Am/I Am... the Word was God ... God dwelt among us..

Now that you accept the Bible, and I presume you don't mind contradictions as I have pointed out, bear in mind the book was crafted by men. Men are not GOD nor are men infallible. We all err.

It was others making claims about Jesus and not him.

Now, before anybody runs off sobbing that I am not a christian, I am. I accept GOD. I accept Jesus the son of GOD. I accept he delivered all of us. When any among you gets anointed the same as Jesus, by all means explain it to me. But till then, we are all, me, you and the rest, mortal men. I don't judge you. It is not up to you to judge me.

[avatar4321]

Have you proven the Bible as divinely inspired yet?

Have you asked the Lord?

[Robert A Whit]

It would take some time to do properly FJ.
be nice to cover it in one place. It's an important question.

BUT frankly it's difficult enough to get people to read what the Bible says and understand what it says. even without them believing it's inspired.

See above conversation: the Bible says there's one God and Jesus says he's God.
People dispute what it says on it's face.

It'd be great to get people to just agree on what it says.

But many who have come to Bible as skeptics have at least looked honestly at what the words say and have checked them as history 1st, and found them reliable and vast.
At that point it becomes another issue.
Do you believe that Jesus is a liar or a misinformed religious nut.
If either one of those is true then you can discount the Bible's inspiration IMO.

and eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

GOD is in one form, what Jesus now is. Jesus on Earth was not the same form as GOD nor was Jesus the sole GOD.

Think of it like a teacher. You try to teach but you are not the one and only teacher.

Another way is that GOD at the time of Jesus was not Jesus but himself. Yet as the son appears in one point as the Father could appear or did appear, so he is one with GOD.

Jesus had one thing that the rest lacked. He knew as a certainty who he was. And when you read the gospels, they do not allege Jesus and GOD are at that time the one and same personage. In purpose both are the same, but not as to personages.

Now, a strange thing happens when Christians mock others. They know Jews do not in any fashion accept Christ. But they refuse to mock Jews as they mock others. It is strange in my opinion that they rush to defend Jews. Logically they ought to treat Jews no better than witch doctors. We Mormons do not run around mocking others at all that I am aware of.

[avatar4321]

have you proven that atheists are rational yet?......

Just becaue they are completely irrational when it comes to religion doesn't mean they arent rational anywhere else.

[aboutime]

Have you asked the Lord?

avatar. I seem to get the impression here that fj doesn't believe there is a Lord, God, or Jesus. Much like no belief, and therefore, no obeying of the Ten Commandments, or rules for people who believe in, and have faith in something they can't see.

That seems to be the growing tendency of the Instant Gratification crowd of Americans today. They INSIST they do not believe in a God, and therefore...do not read a book called the Bible, which includes a list of man-made rules....they feel...There is no need to obey because THEY DO NOT BELIEVE.
It removes all forms of common sense, and personal responsibility from their Invisible Lacking Moral standards.

[Robert A Whit]

Have you asked the Lord?

Here is the thing about that. I suspect we can read the text presented here to get that answer from any of them.

Examine their hearts as expressed in their words.

Do they use certain phrases from only one Bible as something they see as proof?

Do they accept the Jew bible despite the Jews rejecting their Bible.

Are their hearts as hard against the Jews who reject them as they are against others?

We LDS understand a bit better than most what rejection of the Bible looks like.

But any of them seeking help from GOD can ask for help. GOD helps those who seek the truth.

[Robert A Whit]

avatar. I seem to get the impression here that fj doesn't believe there is a Lord, God, or Jesus. Much like no belief, and therefore, no obeying of the Ten Commandments, or rules for people who believe in, and have faith in something they can't see.

That seems to be the growing tendency of the Instant Gratification crowd of Americans today. They INSIST they do not believe in a God, and therefore...do not read a book called the Bible, which includes a list of man-made rules....they feel...There is no need to obey because THEY DO NOT BELIEVE.
It removes all forms of common sense, and personal responsibility from their Invisible Lacking Moral standards.

Jews don't believe in Jesus.. I could be wrong but I see no sign that you bash Jews as you bash FJ.

Since Jews do not believe in Jesus, does that mean Jews don't believe GOD is the creator?

Some of you claim Jesus and GOD is the same. Makes no sense for you to trash others but put the Jews on a pedestal.

I am well aware of the new age Christians belief in the Jews.

[revelarts]

Sure men penned the Bible, and a very fallible man wrote the book of Mormon as well Robert. one with more than a few known faults.

GOD is in one form, what Jesus now is. Jesus on Earth was not the same form as GOD nor was Jesus the sole GOD.

Think of it like a teacher. You try to teach but you are not the one and only teacher.

Another way is that GOD at the time of Jesus was not Jesus but himself. Yet as the son appears in one point as the Father could appear or did appear, so he is one with GOD.

Jesus had one thing that the rest lacked. He knew as a certainty who he was. And when you read the gospels, they do not allege Jesus and GOD are at that time the one and same personage. In purpose both are the same, but not as to personages.

Now, a strange thing happens when Christians mock others. They know Jews do not in any fashion accept Christ. But they refuse to mock Jews as they mock others. It is strange in my opinion that they rush to defend Jews. Logically they ought to treat Jews no better than witch doctors. We Mormons do not run around mocking others at all that I am aware of.

Robert i don't think i EVER said you personally were or were not a Christian. That's between you and God.
And I've never "mocked" you or anyone i hope.
What I've said is that some of the things that you described as "Christian" teaching are NOT.
They are not traditional Christian teaching about God and are not supported by the Bible.

As far as the Jews go, they do not claim they are Christian.
But Mormon doctrine asserts that it is Christian but it by it's own admission teaches there are multiple true gods and that a good Mormon can become one too. THAT's a contradiction.
I'm not mocking or attacking I'm just stating a fact. Polytheism is not Christian. And Mormonism teaches some unique form of Polytheism.
Individual Mormons may not adhere to those particular beliefs and may indeed have faith in Jesus as Savior.
But the teachings of Mormonism might block a person path to the grace of God if they are taught there are many gods and Jesus is one and other unbiblical teachings.

Is that wrong to say?
Seems to me It's easier to talk about stuff when people are open and honest about the facts most of time it.

[PostmodernProphet]

What atheist are you talking about?
I assumed you.....was there actually a religion you didn't hate?.....you seem to be opposed to all of them that actually had deities...

[PostmodernProphet]

It was others making claims about Jesus and not him.


sorry, but that isn't accurate.....as has already been shown to you by two posters.....

[avatar4321]

avatar. I seem to get the impression here that fj doesn't believe there is a Lord, God, or Jesus. Much like no belief, and therefore, no obeying of the Ten Commandments, or rules for people who believe in, and have faith in something they can't see.

That seems to be the growing tendency of the Instant Gratification crowd of Americans today. They INSIST they do not believe in a God, and therefore...do not read a book called the Bible, which includes a list of man-made rules....they feel...There is no need to obey because THEY DO NOT BELIEVE.
It removes all forms of common sense, and personal responsibility from their Invisible Lacking Moral standards.

How does anyone expect to learn whether something is divinely inspired if they dont talk with the Lord? It seems there are alot of people who want to remain ignorant.

[PostmodernProphet]

Just becaue they are completely irrational when it comes to religion doesn't mean they arent rational anywhere else.

then they should provide evidence.....

[avatar4321]

Sure men penned the Bible, and a very fallible man wrote the book of Mormon as well Robert. one with more than a few known faults.


Robert i don't think i EVER said you personally were or were not a Christian. That's between you and God.
And I've never "mocked" you or anyone i hope.
What I've said is that some of the things that you described as "Christian" teaching are NOT.
They are not traditional Christian teaching about God and are not supported by the Bible.

As far as the Jews go, they do not claim they are Christian.
But Mormon doctrine asserts that it is Christian but it by it's own admission teaches there are multiple true gods and that a good Mormon can become one too. THAT's a contradiction.
I'm not mocking or attacking I'm just stating a fact. Polytheism is not Christian. And Mormonism teaches some unique form of Polytheism.
Individual Mormons may not adhere to those particular beliefs and may indeed have faith in Jesus as Savior.
But the teachings of Mormonism might block a person path to the grace of God if they are taught there are many gods and Jesus is one and other unbiblical teachings.

Is that wrong to say?
Seems to me It's easier to talk about stuff when people are open and honest about the facts most of time it.

It's the Bible that teaches of those that recieve the Word of God "Ye are gods". It's the Bible that teaches that our Heavenly Father is the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

[avatar4321]

then they should provide evidence.....

Eh, evidence is subjective.

[Robert A Whit]

Sure men penned the Bible, and a very fallible man wrote the book of Mormon as well Robert. one with more than a few known faults.
If you plan to diminish the Book of Mormon, please apply the same sort of thing vs the OT and NT. To attack the book of Mormon but not the others makes no sense to me.

Robert i don't think i EVER said you personally were or were not a Christian. That's between you and God.

We agree. But it won't stop some from claiming the opposite.
And I've never "mocked" you or anyone i hope.
What I've said is that some of the things that you described as "Christian" teaching are NOT.

You crossed the line there. It implies or states you are the authority over what is Christian.

They are not traditional Christian teaching about God and are not supported by the Bible.

Jews don't approve Christians so I am comfortable in my views. The interesting thing about your so called Christians is they do support Jews yet don't seem to mind that they are the rejected class by Jews. When you are busy rejecting, bear in mind that you too are rejected.

As far as the Jews go, they do not claim they are Christian.

My point precisely and repeated by you.
But Mormon doctrine asserts that it is Christian but it by it's own admission teaches there are multiple true gods and that a good Mormon can become one too.

We are Christian by virtue of following AND accepting Jesus teachings. It has nothing at all to do with other Gods. We spotted something very interesting. That Jesus is called GOD by many Christians. I don't claim all call him that. Some call him the son of God. Still that presents a conundrum. If they admit Jesus is a GOD, they are up to two GODS right there. Maybe the problem is that GOD is loosely defined and that being the but one GOD theory. I believe that GOD sent Jesus but is not Jesus. Jesus is his son. To have Mormons become GODS has to involve GOD and what GOD chooses to do. I don't think you nor I can speak for GOD.


THAT's a contradiction.
I'm not mocking or attacking I'm just stating a fact. Polytheism is not Christian. And Mormonism teaches some unique form of Polytheism.

May I ask you why do you care? Far too many so called Christians won't simply accept us into their club. They talk as if they talk for GOD. We do not depend on what amounts to the "limits on GOD" types that won't accept that GOD decides on who is another GOD and not some that think GOD has limits. I don't believe GOD has limits.

Individual Mormons may not adhere to those particular beliefs and may indeed have faith in Jesus as Savior.

We all do. That is core to the church. We pay Jesus great honor even in the name of the church. We put it up in large letters. We have such faith in Jesus.
But the teachings of Mormonism might block a person path to the grace of God if they are taught there are many gods and Jesus is one and other unbiblical teachings.

You are limited by what you have been trained to think. GOD is not picky as you seem to portray GOD.

Is that wrong to say?
Seems to me It's easier to talk about stuff when people are open and honest about the facts most of time it.

I read you and believe you want to be known as the authority. The one that has all knowledge.

I don't have all knowledge but I do believe Jesus is the savior of all men and that Jesus is one more instance of GOD being but one of the GODS. I see GOD more in the same way one might see his own Grandfather who had sons who had sons and some of them showed up talking to me.

To limit GOD to the only GOD makes no sense. But I don't think of GOD in the same limited fashion you do.

[Robert A Whit]

It's the Bible that teaches of those that recieve the Word of God "Ye are gods". It's the Bible that teaches that our Heavenly Father is the God of gods and the Lord of lords.

Absolutely. Back in the old days, some pagans favored one series of GODs yet did not accept some other series of GODs. Take the Romans vs the Norse for instance or the Egyptians vs the Greeks.

I see more fighting by Christians about what or who is GOD than the old guys did in the days of Rome or Greece.

There is no logic attached to the one GOD theory. Jesus proved to me that he is a GOD and that he also died on the cross. Clearly as GOD he still could not help dying on the cross yet none would care to call him fallible I suppose. At least his believers don't want him to be called fallible. But he called out to GOD. So if he is GOD was he mad and talked to himself or did he talk to his father, one more GOD?

[DragonStryk72]

Sure men penned the Bible, and a very fallible man wrote the book of Mormon as well Robert. one with more than a few known faults.


Robert i don't think i EVER said you personally were or were not a Christian. That's between you and God.
And I've never "mocked" you or anyone i hope.
What I've said is that some of the things that you described as "Christian" teaching are NOT.
They are not traditional Christian teaching about God and are not supported by the Bible.

As far as the Jews go, they do not claim they are Christian.
But Mormon doctrine asserts that it is Christian but it by it's own admission teaches there are multiple true gods and that a good Mormon can become one too. THAT's a contradiction.
I'm not mocking or attacking I'm just stating a fact. Polytheism is not Christian. And Mormonism teaches some unique form of Polytheism.
Individual Mormons may not adhere to those particular beliefs and may indeed have faith in Jesus as Savior.
But the teachings of Mormonism might block a person path to the grace of God if they are taught there are many gods and Jesus is one and other unbiblical teachings.

Is that wrong to say?
Seems to me It's easier to talk about stuff when people are open and honest about the facts most of time it.

Where does everyone get this idea the Christianity only allows for there being one God in the universe? And I'm not talking about Jesus here. In the Old Testament, God twice makes direct reference to other gods. The first time is in Genesis, when he learns that Adam & Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but had not yet eat of the tree of life, when He says, "They would have become one of us."

But it's not just there there's this passage from Genesis 1:26: "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Genesis 3:23 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

And then of course, there's the first commandment which makes reference to other gods. If there werent any, why would God have wasted time with that commandment?

[Robert A Whit]

Where does everyone get this idea the Christianity only allows for there being one God in the universe? And I'm not talking about Jesus here. In the Old Testament, God twice makes direct reference to other gods. The first time is in Genesis, when he learns that Adam & Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but had not yet eat of the tree of life, when He says, "They would have become one of us."

But it's not just there there's this passage from Genesis 1:26: "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Genesis 3:23 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

And then of course, there's the first commandment which makes reference to other gods. If there werent any, why would God have wasted time with that commandment?

This is correct. I read it moments ago in the Bible.

[aboutime]

Quick reference for those who claim they are above the law, and believe in nothing:

4706 or....4707

[Robert A Whit]

God speaks of plural GODS in the ten commandments.

Enough proof for me.

That and he did it again in Genesis. More than once so it was not an accident.

[DragonStryk72]

God speaks of plural GODS in the ten commandments.

Enough proof for me.

That and he did it again in Genesis. More than once so it was not an accident.

Yeah, He just said that if your worship him, that he comes first. Pretty straightforward really.

[revelarts]

wow, ok.
did anyone read the OTHER verses Tyr an I posted?
It seems those are completely ignored in favor of a particular heart felt view to the contrary.

"I am God there is none else." except for the others Avatar, Robert and Dragon believe in.



It's the Bible that teaches of those that recieve the Word of God "Ye are gods". It's the Bible that teaches that our Heavenly Father is the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
Ok but youv'e misquoted the verse it says KING of KINGS and Lord of Lords
1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;



Absolutely. Back in the old days, some pagans favored one series of GODs yet did not accept some other series of GODs. Take the Romans vs the Norse for instance or the Egyptians vs the Greeks.
I see more fighting by Christians about what or who is GOD than the old guys did in the days of Rome or Greece.
Do you believe the Greek and Egyptians gods were real? If real were they gods anyone should worship? Or do you believe God/Jesus is just a better god than they? Or what.

here's what an expert on Christianity St Paul said to people who believed in other gods after he had performed a miracle before them.
Acts 14
11 When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12 Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. 13 The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.
14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting: 15 “Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them. 16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.”

Why don't you guys turn from the worthless false gods to the ONE living god that created all things.
To the people in Athens he said similar.

22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. ...
29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Robert don't argue with me, argue with Paul and the prophets and John Jesus etc.
I'm just reading as honestly as i can and pray you do the same.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

wow, ok.
did anyone read the OTHER verses Tyr an I posted?
It seems those are completely ignored in favor of a particular heart felt view to the contrary.

"I am God there is none else." except for the others Avatar, Robert and Dragon believe in.
.


More convenient to ignore those bible verses. -Tyr

[PostmodernProphet]

To attack the book of Mormon but not the others makes no sense to me.

that's because you're a Mormon.....paying attention to it makes no sense to me, as a Christian....

[avatar4321]

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Psalms 82:6)

The scriptures are pretty clear. But then you might try to argue, who is the writer refering to? Well, in order to answer that let's turn to Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World for greater context and clarity. He we have Jesus using this scripture in an argument supporting His Divinity:


I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:30-36)


As we can clearly see from Jesus Christ, Himself, those to whom the word of God came are called gods by the scriptures. He uses this to defend His Divinity. Are we to conclude that Jesus Christ is a liar? God forbid!

The scriptures have a number of references to God, Our Father, being the God of gods and Lord of lords.


The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,) (Joshua 22:22)


O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. (Psalms 136:2-3)



the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: (Deut 10:17)


And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. (Daniel 11:36)


Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (1 Timothy 6:15)

The Apostle Paul taught there were many called gods & lords both in heaven and on earth:

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor 8:5-6)

Peter taught that we, as saints, through the Atonement are made partakers of the Divine Nature:


Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4)

There are other verses. God through His Atoning Grace can make us partakers of His Divine Nature. The Bible is clear that we who recieve the word of God are gods. That He is the God of gods and Lord of Lords. That's why He commands us to worship Him only.

[avatar4321]

More convenient to ignore those bible verses. -Tyr

Actually, it's more convenient to ignore the verses that put that verse in context.

[PostmodernProphet]

Christianity is mono-theistic.......man has elected to worship many things that are merely the creation of the one God......if you choose to believe in other gods you are moving outside the realm of Christianity into some other religion....by definition....

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Actually, it's more convenient to ignore the verses that put that verse in context.

Actually, I have no problem believing that those saved will one day become gods. That is in the future after the Judgement day..
I'll see if I can find the bible verse on that ..-Tyr

Found this as another example...

http://bible.org/seriespage/sons-god-and-daughters-men-genesis-61-8

View 3: The Fallen Angel Interpretation

According to this view, the ‘sons of God’ of verses 2 and 4 are fallen angels, which have taken the form of masculine human-like creatures. These angels married women of the human race (either Cainites or Sethites) and the resulting offspring were the Nephilim. The Nephilim were giants with physical superiority and therefore established themselves as men of renown for their physical prowess and military might. This race of half human creatures was wiped out by the flood, along with mankind in general, who were sinners in their own right (verse 6:11,12).My basic presupposition in approaching our text is that we should let the Bible define its own terms. If biblical definitions are not to be found then we must look at the language and culture of contemporary peoples. But the Bible does define the term ‘the sons of God’ for us.Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan also came among them (Job 1:6).Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came among them to present himself before the Lord (Job 2:1).When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:7, cf. Psalm 89:6;Daniel 3:25).Scholars who reject this view readily acknowledge the fact that the precise term is clearly defined in Scripture.87 (http://bible.org/seriespage/sons-god-and-daughters-men-genesis-61-8#P893_202121) The reason for rejecting the fallen angel interpretation is that such a view is said to be in violation of both reason and Scripture.The primary passage which is said to be problematical is that found in Matthew’s gospel, where our Lord said, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:29-30).We are told that here our Lord said that angels are sexless, but is this really true? Jesus compared men in heaven to angels in heaven. Neither men nor angels are said to be sexless in heaven but we are told that in heaven there will be no marriage. There are no female angels with whom angels can generate offspring. Angels were never told to ‘be fruitful and multiply’ as was man.When we find angels described in the book of Genesis, it is clear that they can assume a human-like form, and that their sex is masculine. The writer to the Hebrews mentions that angels can be entertained without man’s knowing it (Hebrews 13:2). Surely angels must be convincingly like men. The homosexual men of Sodom were very capable of judging sexuality. They were attracted by the ‘male’ angels who came to destroy the city (cf.Genesis 19:1ff, especially verse 5).

found it!!!!
1 John 3:2

<small style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of 1 John 3:2 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_1-John-3-2/).</small>

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[PostmodernProphet]

I see more fighting by Christians about what or who is GOD than the old guys did in the days of Rome or Greece.


really?.....because to be honest, I've never seen two groups of Christians who disagreed about whether the guy who created the universe in Genesis 1 is God......that's why the first part of the universal statement of Christianity is "I believe in God, the Father, Creator of heaven and earth.....

[revelarts]

Yeah, He just said that if your worship him, that he comes first. Pretty straightforward really.
nooo
All the prophets say the other gods are FALSE gods. not just other neighborhood Gods just put me 1st.
People were to be Killed if they worshiped other gods in Israel along side the ONLY true God.
you guys are not being honest with the text. again I refer to post #71, pretty strait forward really.
also see what Paul said about the other gods , Worthless was what he called them and devils.
The Bible mentions False gods a lot,
Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 4:2, Psalm 24:4, Psalm 40:4, Psalm 106:37, Jeremiah 7:9, Jeremiah 13:25, Jeremiah 18:15, to name a few places.

You guys seem to want to lower the true God who made everything down,
and raise the false gods ,who are only created beings, up to his level.
Look people have prayed to rocks and called them god and called the rivers gods but they are only created things.
Romans1:
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
... 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.



Where does everyone get this idea the Christianity only allows for there being one God in the universe? And I'm not talking about Jesus here. In the Old Testament, God twice makes direct reference to other gods. The first time is in Genesis, when he learns that Adam & Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but had not yet eat of the tree of life, when He says, "They would have become one of us."
that's almost Genesis, it says 2: 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
it doesn't say "They would have become one of us." not sure where you got that from.



But it's not just there there's this passage from Genesis 1:26: "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Genesis 3:23 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
You are correct, Genesis does say those things , and i -unlike you guys- will honestly reply to verses you point out.

OK So we have something weird going on. we read God referring to himself in the singular AND the plural interchangeable. When you read all of the Genesis 1 and 2 that's what you read.
Seems that fits perfectly with the idea of one God as a Trinity which is reveal more over time via the rest of the scriptures.
If you read it all and not just the parts you like, it's an honest conclusion.



And then of course, there's the first commandment which makes reference to other gods. If there werent any, why would God have wasted time with that commandment?
Well they just came out of Egypt which was full of false gods (which GOD Showed to be worthless, god of frogs, nile, death etc) and they were going into another land that was also full of false gods. that's one reason. Another Paul mentions in Romans, it's because people don't want to follow the one creator God so they make up or follow false gods to suit their own proclivities. So God wants to show that lying tendency for what it is. A rejection of the truth of his exclusive position in the universe.

[avatar4321]

that's because you're a Mormon.....paying attention to it makes no sense to me, as a Christian....

Paying attention to a book that establishes a new witness to the Mission, atonement, & resurrection of Jesus Christ makes no sense as a Christian? Especailly when the Bible says:


And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25)


We live in an age where men ridicule and deride the Bible. God has been merciful and full of grace and provided another witness to the Atonement of Jesus Christ, His mision, and the mercy of God in a modern world that is losing faith. Why would anyone who follows Christ want to turn down more information and a record that establishes their faith in Christ? Personally, I welcome any more witnesses of Christ that God is willing to provide. Because this world needs it.

There is a reason the Book of Mormon came forth when it did. Because God saw the need that would arise for it. A book that can only be a product by the power of God in a day when people deny the very existence of God. And the best part, a challenge for anyone who wants to know whether the Book came from God for anyone willing to take it.

I can tell you, if the Spirit hadnt revealed to me that the Book of Mormon was true, I wouldn't believe it any more than I would believe the Bible if the Spirit hadnt revealed to me that it's true. But I know that both the Book of Mormon and Bible are true because the Spirit testified to me that it is true. That is the only reason. And I thank God everyday for the mercy He has shown me in revealing it. And I praise Him that not a single person has to believe it simply because I say it but can go to Him and learn for themselves.

Our Father in Heaven is preparing the world for the Appearance of Christ. As disciples of Christ, can we afford to not use every tool He has provided for us in our day?

[avatar4321]

Christianity is mono-theistic.......man has elected to worship many things that are merely the creation of the one God......if you choose to believe in other gods you are moving outside the realm of Christianity into some other religion....by definition....

Or you simply ignore God's word on the matter. We who recieve the word are gods. We have become as the gods knowing Good and evil. And we have become partakers of the Divine Nature through the Grace of God.

[PostmodernProphet]

Paying attention to a book that establishes a new witness to the Mission, atonement, & resurrection of Jesus Christ makes no sense as a Christian?

????....absolutely not.....no more than if you sat down tomorrow and wrote me a new "new witness".......

[PostmodernProphet]

Or you simply ignore God's word on the matter.

I'm not....in John 17:3 Jesus said there is only one true God.....as I said before, if I have to choose between believing him or believing one of you, the decision isn't difficult.....

[Robert A Whit]

The fact that in Genesis God announced he was one of a group of GODs does not set well with some who claim they are Christians it seems to me.

[cadet]

The fact that in Genesis God announced he was one of a group of GODs does not set well with some who claim they are Christians it seems to me.

His angels.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

nooo
All the prophets say the other gods are FALSE gods. not just other neighborhood Gods just put me 1st.
People were to be Killed if they worshiped other gods in Israel along side the ONLY true God.
you guys are not being honest with the text. again I refer to post #71, pretty strait forward really.
also see what Paul said about the other gods , Worthless was what he called them and devils.
The Bible mentions False gods a lot,
Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 4:2, Psalm 24:4, Psalm 40:4, Psalm 106:37, Jeremiah 7:9, Jeremiah 13:25, Jeremiah 18:15, to name a few places.

You guys seem to want to lower the true God who made everything down,
and raise the false gods ,who are only created beings, up to his level.
Look people have prayed to rocks and called them god and called the rivers gods but they are only created things.
Romans1:
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
... 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.



that's almost Genesis, it says 2: 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
it doesn't say "They would have become one of us." not sure where you got that from.


You are correct, Genesis does say those things , and i -unlike you guys- will honestly reply to verses you point out.

OK So we have something weird going on. we read God referring to himself in the singular AND the plural interchangeable. When you read all of the Genesis 1 and 2 that's what you read.
Seems that fits perfectly with the idea of one God as a Trinity which is reveal more over time via the rest of the scriptures.
If you read it all and not just the parts you like, it's an honest conclusion.


Well they just came out of Egypt which was full of false gods (which GOD Showed to be worthless, god of frogs, nile, death etc) and they were going into another land that was also full of false gods. that's one reason. Another Paul mentions in Romans, it's because people don't want to follow the one creator God so they make up or follow false gods to suit their own proclivities. So God wants to show that lying tendency for what it is. A rejection of the truth of his exclusive position in the universe.

Post number 89 clearly cites One God that is a Trinity.
HE IS GOD AFTER ALL...
EXISTING AS A TRINITY AND STILL BEING ONE IS IN HIS POWER TO DO.
Perhaps not in man's puny brain's ability to comprehend ..-Tyr

[PostmodernProphet]

But I know that both the Book of Mormon and Bible are true because the Spirit testified to me that it is true.

just out of idle curiosity......if you believe there are lots of other gods, how can you be sure which spirit testified to you......

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

found it!!!!
1 John 3:2

<small style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of 1 John 3:2 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_1-John-3-2/).</small>

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Last edited by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot; Today at 10:24 PM.



Clearly those saved are to become gods . As God's children they will inherit the universe..--Tyr

[PostmodernProphet]

The fact that in Genesis God announced he was one of a group of GODs does not set well with some who claim they are Christians it seems to me.

actually, the Bible refers to others as false gods......doesn't that alarm you in any way?.......

[PostmodernProphet]

Clearly those saved are to become gods . As God's children they will inherit the universe..--Tyr[/INDENT]

so, do you figure that when you get to heaven you get to create your own universe?......or do you figure you're just going to be "sorta like God, but not all the way like him"......

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

so, do you figure that when you get to heaven you get to create your own universe?......or do you figure you're just going to be "sorta like God, but not all the way like him"......

Those after judgement not cast into the lake of eternal fire will be the sons and daughters of God. They will do as the Father pleases. If creating other universes or dimensions is part of it why not? Maybe that is God's plan..-Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

actually, the Bible refers to others as false gods......doesn't that alarm you in any way?.......

Keep reading Genesis, the beginning.

Repeat after Robert. God said US. US only applies to more than one GOD.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Consider this---

Galatians 3:1-2 gives us an example of a heir that is under guardians and stewards till the time appointed by the father. As long as he is in this stage, as long as the appointed time by the father has not come, he, though son, has the place of a mere slave.“Even so we”, says Galatians 4:3: before the appointed time by the father, we had the place of slaves, we were enslaved under the elements of the world. Then verses 4-5 tell us what happened next:Galatians 4:4-5
“But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the uiothesia (the placing as sons).”The word “but” that starts verse 4 puts in contrast what follows it with what precedes it. What was before? The appointed time of the father had not come; we had the place of slaves; we were enslaved to the elements of the world; we were under schoolmasters, guardians and stewards. The word “BUT” nevertheless introduces a change to this situation. What is this change? The fullness of the time, the appointed time by the Father, came! God sent forth His Son, to redeem those that were under the law, and from having the place of slaves we now got the place of sons. We can also see the same, using the words of Galatians 3:23-26.Galatians 3:23-26
“But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

[revelarts]

The scriptures are pretty clear. But then you might try to argue, who is the writer refering to? Well, in order to answer that let's turn to Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World for greater context and clarity. He we have Jesus using this scripture in an argument supporting His Divinity:

As we can clearly see from Jesus Christ, Himself, those to whom the word of God came are called gods by the scriptures. He uses this to defend His Divinity. Are we to conclude that Jesus Christ is a liar? God forbid!

The scriptures have a number of references to God, Our Father, being the God of gods and Lord of lords.

The Apostle Paul taught there were many called gods & lords both in heaven and on earth:

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor 8:5-6)
Yes "called" gods doesn't mean they are true gods. Notice that ALL things are by Jesus
Peter taught that we, as saints, through the Atonement are made partakers of the Divine Nature:
Yes partakers , that is, we get some, not that we are, by nature, divine Avatar
There are other verses. God through His Atoning Grace can make us partakers of His Divine Nature. The Bible is clear that we who recieve the word of God are gods. That He is the God of gods and Lord of Lords. That's why He commands us to worship Him only.



Avatar
you've ignored a whole page of verses i've quoted where God says without equivocation "there are NO gods besides me." and hang your WHOLE position on primarily one verse that you read more meaning into than is due.
There are NO verse that unequivocally state that we are or will become gods. we are said many time over to become the children of God yes. but gods that have the possibility to create our own worlds as Mormonism teaches , no . absolutely not.


The verses in psalms and John you quote , Did the people of Israel have the power of God, or where any of them to be worshiped did any of them create any part of the universe? are they refereed to in any other parts of the Scripture in the way you apply it or at all? Did Jesus ever call anyone else a god in any context. And many read that passage as the word god working in 2 ways, one as Good the other as a ruler.
It's fine to play word games at times but this is far to serious to be cavalier about.


I've Got to go to bed,my parting scriptural quote
Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;...

And remember the 1st temptation of man was "you shall be as gods"

[Robert A Whit]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Revelarts does not want to be a GOD

Well, I sure do.

[revelarts]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Revelarts does not want to be a GOD

Well, I sure do.

I want to be with God Robert, to know God, an that's our reward.
Revelation 21:3

[PostmodernProphet]

Keep reading Genesis, the beginning.

Repeat after Robert. God said US. US only applies to more than one GOD.

basic rule of thumb for exegesis.....if two verses in the Bible appear to contradict each other, you've misunderstood one of them....."one true God" is rather specific....."us" could be understood in a variety of ways......you've made the wrong choice.....




Repeat after Robert.
wouldn't it be better to repeat after Jesus than to repeat after Robert?......

[PostmodernProphet]

Those after judgement not cast into the lake of eternal fire will be the sons and daughters of God. They will do as the Father pleases. If creating other universes or dimensions is part of it why not? Maybe that is God's plan..-Tyr

obviously, if we have to do as someone else pleases, we won't be gods......you thus concede that when you say we will be gods you mean something else......why use the word if you mean something else......

[fj1200]

Have you asked the Lord?

Not at issue. I called into question a debating ploy.


Just becaue they are completely irrational when it comes to religion doesn't mean they arent rational anywhere else.

I would argue that they are overly rational when it comes to religion. Best to get an atheists take on it though.


avatar. I seem to get the impression here that fj doesn't believe there is a Lord, God, or Jesus. Much like no belief, and therefore, no obeying of the Ten Commandments, or rules for people who believe in, and have faith in something they can't see.

That seems to be the growing tendency of the Instant Gratification crowd of Americans today. They INSIST they do not believe in a God, and therefore...do not read a book called the Bible, which includes a list of man-made rules....they feel...There is no need to obey because THEY DO NOT BELIEVE.
It removes all forms of common sense, and personal responsibility from their Invisible Lacking Moral standards.

What you lack in reasoning ability you make up for in being passive aggressive.

[PostmodernProphet]

And remember the 1st temptation of man was "you shall be as gods"

that parallel struck me as well....apparently it's still a temptation....

[fj1200]

I assumed you.....was there actually a religion you didn't hate?.....you seem to be opposed to all of them that actually had deities...

Reduced to incoherence eh? I can't help your assumptions and incorrect inferences.

[PostmodernProphet]

Reduced to incoherence eh? I can't help your assumptions and incorrect inferences.

odd, a simple denial would have solved the issue....instead you seem to want to appear incognito......

[fj1200]

then they should provide evidence.....


Eh, evidence is subjective.

Especially when faith is the answer.

[fj1200]

odd, a simple denial would have solved the issue....instead you seem to want to appear incognito......

:dunno:

[revelarts]

Those after judgement not cast into the lake of eternal fire will be the sons and daughters of God. They will do as the Father pleases. If creating other universes or dimensions is part of it why not? Maybe that is God's plan..-Tyr

Maybe not.

Bottom line you guys want to be called gods 2nd class.
My point is there's is and only ever will be 1 uncreated God the creator of heaven an earth who is to worshiped and has ALL power that will never be cloned into you or me or any other created beings.
being like him and being exactly like him are very different things folks
Some of you guys want to play loosely with the term god.
Play at your own risk.

[revelarts]

And remember the 1st temptation of man was "you shall be as gods"that parallel struck me as well....apparently it's still a temptation....

apparently

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

obviously, if we have to do as someone else pleases, we won't be gods......you thus concede that when you say we will be gods you mean something else......why use the word if you mean something else......

Used it because I believe it is as close to that which those saved will be as man can understand. Consider that we go to live in our Father's house not as pets ,not as simple guests but as his sons and daughters. As such that clearly indicates we shall have both the form and powers as does God but also limited because God is Supreme. I go to prepare a place for you indicates existing there in that place.
We are not going to be angels, demons ,servants ,mere guests or devils as you surely know well.
A limited God willingly serving the Father makes sense. It is not a temptation because a gift from our Father is not a temptation. It is rather a valid possibility IMHO. Remember eternal life could be called a temptation but it is not because it is a gift from God.

Words spoken by Jesus telling of his Father's gift to all that accept him.
John 14:2<small style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of John 14:2 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_John-14-2/).</small>

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Pure Cambridge Edition

[PostmodernProphet]

A limited God willingly serving the Father makes sense.

well, as long as you realize you made the whole thing up based upon one sentence in the Bible that could be understood different ways, many of which make even more sense.....

[Abbey Marie]

Maybe not.

Bottom line you guys want to be called gods 2nd class.
My point is there's is and only ever will be 1 uncreated God the creator of heaven an earth who is to worshiped and has ALL power that will never be cloned into you or me or any other created beings.
being like him and being exactly like him are very different things folks
Some of you guys want to play loosely with the term god.
Play at your own risk.

My idea of heaven from the scriptures is heavy on worship of the one true God. I am neither interested in being worshipped, nor of worshipping other former-mortals. For one big reason at least: not one of us is worthy of it.

And like the "72 virgins" reward of Islamic lore, I would have to question the sincerity of a person who is angling to be a god himself someday. It is my understanding that being in the presence of God is the reward, and it is certainly enough.

[revelarts]

My idea of heaven from the scriptures is heavy on worship of the one true God. I am neither interested in being worshipped, nor of worshipping other former-mortals. For one big reason at least: not one of us is worthy of it.
exactly



And like the "72 virgins" reward of Islamic lore, I would have to question the sincerity of a person who is angling to be a god himself someday. It is my understanding that being in the presence of God is the reward, and it is certainly enough.
exactly, everything else is gravy.


Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
genesis 6:9

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
micah 6:9

2 corinthians 6:16
...as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[Robert A Whit]

basic rule of thumb for exegesis.....if two verses in the Bible appear to contradict each other, you've misunderstood one of them....."one true God" is rather specific....."us" could be understood in a variety of ways......you've made the wrong choice.....


wouldn't it be better to repeat after Jesus than to repeat after Robert?......

Jesus did not author Genesis so I quoted GOD. But you go ahead and quote anybody you want. I remind you that Jesus did not author the new testament either.

[avatar4321]

Especially when faith is the answer.

No. Faith isn't the answer. it's the method for getting answers. Without faith, you remain in ignorance forever

[Robert A Whit]

Maybe not.

Bottom line you guys want to be called gods 2nd class.
My point is there's is and only ever will be 1 uncreated God the creator of heaven an earth who is to worshiped and has ALL power that will never be cloned into you or me or any other created beings.
being like him and being exactly like him are very different things folks
Some of you guys want to play loosely with the term god.
Play at your own risk.

There is this general misunderstanding of GOD. I don't want to be called a second class anything. On Earth, we are not GODs. Not Even Jesus on Earth was a GOD. GOD exists on a plane of existence we mortals can't see. Recall that even Moses did not say he saw GOD, but saw what GOD did. I don't believe that Jesus was caught teaching that we can see GOD. But for those of us on Earth to claim there is one GOD makes as much sense as an observer saying that because one of two parents is a male and the other a female, that their children can't be humans. I don't get it. GOD created mankind to do what? To stay something not able to be as he is?

No, Genesis makes it clear that GOD said there are more GODs than him though he did not say they outrank him.

[Robert A Whit]

My idea of heaven from the scriptures is heavy on worship of the one true God. I am neither interested in being worshipped, nor of worshipping other former-mortals. For one big reason at least: not one of us is worthy of it.

And like the "72 virgins" reward of Islamic lore, I would have to question the sincerity of a person who is angling to be a god himself someday. It is my understanding that being in the presence of God is the reward, and it is certainly enough.


In Exodus, we find that when Pharaoh was told to "let my people go" he was told it was the thing the GOD of the Hebrews wanted. That comment looks to me like there was the acceptance of other GODs. (see Exodus 5; 1-3)

The Bible does not say that GOD is the only GOD. As to the GOD to worship, there I would say he commanded that. Think of GOD as a pyramid. GOD is the peak. Those GOD accepts as part of the GOD family will be in the pyramid.

We Mormons accept 3 levels of being upon death. Those with GOD, those just below GOD and those living on a state like this planet.

[Robert A Whit]

I am not saying I qualify to be a GOD in league with GOD, but suppose GOD did include ME as a GOD!!!!

Why do some of you posters act alarmed or as if I or Avatar were doing wrong?

You do not expect to be as a GOD with GOD. I don't know what you do expect but clearly you do not expect to be in his class or family of GODs.

I believe GOD can do as he wishes. Suppose I am wrong. The worst thing that can happen is I wind up like you expect to wind up.

I am not too worried.

[aboutime]

To sum up this entire thread. I refer everyone to the Last words spoken by Jesus on the cross before he died.

And those words apply so well to all of the prognosticators, and wannabe Biblical Historians here.

The words were:
"Father. Forgive them. For they know Not what they do!"


Very applicable to almost everything we see taking place around us today.

[logroller]

Jesus did not author Genesis so I quoted GOD. But you go ahead and quote anybody you want. I remind you that Jesus did not author the new testament either.
Technically, Did God author Genesis? Or was it divinely inspired (by the Holy Spirit); same as the NT? And, now correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not a central tenet of Christianity that Jesus is The Lord God incarnate? If so, how is it you seperate the two divinities -- that of Jesus being like God's nom de plume of the New Testament and new covenant as prescribed in John 3:16?

I'm trying to make sense of what you say, but it doesn't seem particularly in line with with what Ive been taught. It sounds like you're saying God came as a man (Jesus) to Earth; then upon ascension, He became a god and that any of us can do the same. Sounds sweet and all, maybe you're right... but then karma sounds good too, maybe that's right. What it boils down to for me is what's right for you to believe here on Earth is fine so long as you're here ; and when/ if it comes time to be judged, hopefully you can defend your actions to God and/or gods.

[Robert A Whit]

To sum up this entire thread. I refer everyone to the Last words spoken by Jesus on the cross before he died.

And those words apply so well to all of the prognosticators, and wannabe Biblical Historians here.

The words were:
"Father. Forgive them. For they know Not what they do!"


Very applicable to almost everything we see taking place around us today.

That is one of my implied points. Jesus spoke to dad. Dad and Jesus are not the same thing. Romans killed Jesus for the Jews. Clearly Romans had no idea what was to follow during the era of Constantine. However spreading Christianity was good so to forgive the Romans he spoke of the murder on the Cross.

[Robert A Whit]

Technically, Did God author Genesis? Or was it divinely inspired (by the Holy Spirit); same as the NT? And, now correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not a central tenet of Christianity that Jesus is The Lord God incarnate? If so, how is it you seperate the two divinities -- that of Jesus being like God's nom de plume of the New Testament and new covenant as prescribed in John 3:16?

I'm trying to make sense of what you say, but it doesn't seem particularly in line with with what Ive been taught. It sounds like you're saying God came as a man (Jesus) to Earth; then upon ascension, He became a god and that any of us can do the same. Sounds sweet and all, maybe you're right... but then karma sounds good too, maybe that's right. What it boils down to for me is what's right for you to believe here on Earth is fine so long as you're here ; and when/ if it comes time to be judged, hopefully you can defend your actions to God and/or gods.

Of course not. Moses is the claimed author. But when Moses spoke of the beginning, he spoke of GODs and not a single GOD. I understand that it does not feel very good to be quoting scripture but to totally ignore the beginning and what the story is.

It is the tenet to some Christians but Christians have been arguing for a very long time. Prior to the NT, no doubt a lot of arguments were started over what this or that was supposed to have taken place. Jesus was long dead before records in writing about him came to be. Even today, when any event, such as the Iraq war happens, a lot of arguments start and some claim FACT A is true but others say, FACT A is not true but FACT B is the truth. Clearly both can't be true. We can't expect more clear remarks were made after the crucifixion happened. A lot of confused people were all over the place. Even Moses shows up centuries later to put the story down in writing and even that story is argued over.

Unlike some here, I don't come loaded with quotes from the Bible to offer as proof of this or that but the story in the Bible seems pretty clear to my eyes.

I am saying that Jesus is not THE GOD that is spoken of as GOD, but his son. As his son, he is also a GOD. God did not merely produce one god but not others. I believe those who reach heaven qualify to become GODs. Not as an only GOD, but one of a family of GODs. Humans don't exist as sole entities and it's sort of strange that GOD would be a sole cowboy either.

I am not trying to speak against GOD. I also want to be clear to all of you. I speak for my concepts. Avatar in my opinion does a better job of explaining Mormon teaching than I do.

My disclaimer is I speak only to my views and do not represent that I am offering Mormon teaching. We do teach that GOD was once like man or as we can see, Jesus was a man and now is a GOD so it can happen. We don't teach that just anybody can be a GOD no matter how they spent a human life. Clearly Hitler or Stalin won't make it. I am not saying that one must be a Mormon to make it.

We are all offering our views. I merely offer my view as something that seems to explain pretty much all that happened. And I don't promise a stick in your eye if you don't believe. Some Christians on their mighty perch promise that stick, but not this guy.

I believe we have posters who assume they speak for GOD. I suspect they read only the parts of the Bible they like. They don't pay a bit of attention to the rest of the Bible.

[revelarts]

We are all offering our views. I merely offer my view as something that seems to explain pretty much all that happened. And I don't promise a stick in your eye if you don't believe. Some Christians on their mighty perch promise that stick, but not this guy.

I believe we have posters who assume they speak for GOD. I suspect they read only the parts of the Bible they like. They don't pay a bit of attention to the rest of the Bible....

I believe you might be talking about me, and why do i feel a stick in my eye?
but frankly i've quoted from and answered from all over the Bible. while you only talk about the Bible verses that you like Robert. and say those scriptures that don't agree with your personal views were written by men who didn't really know what they were talking about, and that you know better.
Who is speaking for God here? I think it's the guy who hopes to be one.


....
My disclaimer is I speak only to my views and do not represent that I am offering Mormon teaching. We do teach that GOD was once like man or as we can see, Jesus was a man and now is a GOD so it can happen. We don't teach that just anybody can be a GOD no matter how they spent a human life. Clearly Hitler or Stalin won't make it. I am not saying that one must be a Mormon to make it. ...


Ok, so that's your opinion that's fine.
Please, just don't say it's what the Bible says. You'll get a stick in your eye.
Any honest reading of the text will not give you that view.

But i guess i get confused when you earlier you've implied that you don't think Moses knew what he was talking about and that no one knows what Jesus really said and in your opinion it's REALLY the way you and the Mormons see it. and can pick from the parts of the Bible you do agree with and poopoo the rest or dismiss other scriptures contrary your view as just men's opinions in some old book, which is contradictory and old outta date 2nd hand stories. I mean if that's how you honestly come by you conclusions about God and gods and your after life , OK ,like i said your welcome to your opinion.
I don't mean to offend you by challenging your beliefs, if your are not basing them on the old unreliable Bible anyway. But on your own opinions.

[PostmodernProphet]

Jesus did not author Genesis so I quoted GOD. But you go ahead and quote anybody you want. I remind you that Jesus did not author the new testament either.

same guy.....besides, the "one true God" comment that was in the paragraph you quoted is from the gospel of John and is prefaced by the words "Jesus said"......

[PostmodernProphet]

In Exodus, we find that when Pharaoh was told to "let my people go" he was told it was the thing the GOD of the Hebrews wanted. That comment looks to me like there was the acceptance of other GODs. (see Exodus 5; 1-3)

The Bible does not say that GOD is the only GOD. As to the GOD to worship, there I would say he commanded that. Think of GOD as a pyramid. GOD is the peak. Those GOD accepts as part of the GOD family will be in the pyramid.

We Mormons accept 3 levels of being upon death. Those with GOD, those just below GOD and those living on a state like this planet.

so when we get to heaven and you Mormons are a level above us, can we just ignore you or do we have to worship you too........

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

My idea of heaven from the scriptures is heavy on worship of the one true God. I am neither interested in being worshipped, nor of worshipping other former-mortals. For one big reason at least: not one of us is worthy of it.

And like the "72 virgins" reward of Islamic lore, I would have to question the sincerity of a person who is angling to be a god himself someday. It is my understanding that being in the presence of God is the reward, and it is certainly enough.

Question away my friend. Salvation is the promised reward for accepting by faith that Jesus is the Son of God and our Lord and Master that died for our sins. What if any great gifts/blessings come after that is speculation that matters not a whit to me. Eternal life in God's presence is the reward !

Islam and its promise of fleshly desires with 72 virgins is no true comparison IMHO. So insignificant as to be laughable. Besides Islam teaches that man is his own salvation, that by "works"(absolute obedience) man can buy his own salvation. Teaches that it is a bartered deal not a gift from God as it is. A gift we know was purchased by God's own son-Jesus.
Islamists are loved by our God but the religion of Islam is not. For the religion enslaves it's followers into darkness and eternal death..They are free to accept Jesus and thereby receive the exact same Salvation as any other human on earth! -Tyr

[aboutime]

Question away my friend. Salvation is the promised reward for accepting by faith that Jesus is the Son of God and our Lord and Master that died for our sins. What if any great gifts/blessings come after that is speculation that matters not a whit to me. Eternal life in God's presence is the reward !

Islam and its promise of fleshly desires with 72 virgins is no true comparison IMHO. So insignificant as to be laughable. Besides Islam teaches that man is his own salvation, that by "works"(absolute obedience) man can buy his own salvation. Teaches that it is a bartered deal not a gift from God as it is. A gift we know was purchased by God's own son-Jesus.
Islamists are loved by our God but the religion of Islam is not. For the religion enslaves it's followers into darkness and eternal death..They are free to accept Jesus and thereby receive the exact same Salvation as any other human on earth! -Tyr


Tyr. As someone with experience with Heaven....Literally, since I was pronounced twice, and a Doctor, then two EMT's changed all of that for me. I can say. If there is a Heaven, or what anyone believes a Heaven will be after they die. I can report. THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL.
When I died...both times. It was nothing more than SLEEP.
I talked to no-one, saw no-one, didn't see any bright lights in a tunnel, no angels or mysterious people walking around that looked familiar.
IT WAS SLEEP.
Can't prove anything more. But I do like the idea I have been hearing since I was old enough to understand what other people told me about Heaven.
Where somehow. Everyone I have ever known, like my parents, my brothers, and sister, and even Elvis are going to introduce themselves to me, and everything will just be PERFECT.

[Robert A Whit]

I believe you might be talking about me, and why do i feel a stick in my eye?

I can name names but that is not my desire nor intention. But I was not thinking of you.

but frankly i've quoted from and answered from all over the Bible. while you only talk about the Bible verses that you like Robert. and say those scriptures that don't agree with your personal views were written by men who didn't really know what they were talking about, and that you know better.
Who is speaking for God here? I think it's the guy who hopes to be one.

You didn't have to take it down the personal road. I had not jumped you. I am offering concepts and you appear to preach. And use the Bible as your tool. I deal with some contradictions such as .... is it one GOD or more than one. There are a plethora of verses and of course you locate your favorites and use them. I don't want to battle verses.

My view on the Bible is it has many authors. And when said authors wrote those words, they had no guarantee that others would continue said "book" or end it right then.

Put one more way, say somebody took your words and put them in a book. But i added my words. You might not like Me adding to your book and ... well, take Moses.

We have no way to test the idea Moses intended others to add to a book when they talked over things he was not discussing.

As to me quoting verses? I think that is your speciality. But when you quote a verse and I explain other verses contradict that, it bothers you. I am no Bible teacher. I can't make sense out of the idea that just one GOD can exist. I think of GOD as much more powerful than that.



Ok, so that's your opinion that's fine.
Please, just don't say it's what the Bible says. You'll get a stick in your eye.
Any honest reading of the text will not give you that view.

If one of you quoters make statements and I discover that the Bible has material that does not back that up, why can't I use those quotes?

By stick in the eye I mean to say some act like they are GOD and if they say so, then dammit it is true. They feel that to read the Bible means they fully understand all of this. I doubt they are that much an authority. One poster spoke of burning in hell. That sure seems harsh.

But i guess i get confused when you earlier you've implied that you don't think Moses knew what he was talking about and that no one knows what Jesus really said and in your opinion it's REALLY the way you and the Mormons see it. and can pick from the parts of the Bible you do agree with and poopoo the rest or dismiss other scriptures contrary your view as just men's opinions in some old book, which is contradictory and old outta date 2nd hand stories. I mean if that's how you honestly come by you conclusions about God and gods and your after life , OK ,like i said your welcome to your opinion.
I don't mean to offend you by challenging your beliefs, if your are not basing them on the old unreliable Bible anyway. But on your own opinions.

I don't recall trying to claim Moses did not know what he was talking about. If you think that, put that out of your mind.

I am not speaking for Mormons. I have no right to do that. I have for many years wondered why the gospels don't match up. And I have spoken to some alleged authorities about this and they can't explain it. I don't claim to know just what Jesus said. You may mean somebody else. I just say what I read in the Bible but I make no claims I can prove that it was said that way. Can you claim you are able to be the authority?

I get into trouble for pointing out that one verse quoted has other verses that direct you to a different conclusion. Then I defend myself for merely pointing this out.

I wondered for many years why in the Jews Bible, GOD is harsh. GOD destroys.
In the Bible the Christians constructed, GOD is a forgiving sort of GOD.

I suppose some of us can shut up and let you do all the talking. Maybe that works for you. A man talking to himself.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=625171#post625171)

In Exodus, we find that when Pharaoh was told to "let my people go" he was told it was the thing the GOD of the Hebrews wanted. That comment looks to me like there was the acceptance of other GODs. (see Exodus 5; 1-3)

The Bible does not say that GOD is the only GOD. As to the GOD to worship, there I would say he commanded that. Think of GOD as a pyramid. GOD is the peak. Those GOD accepts as part of the GOD family will be in the pyramid.

We Mormons accept 3 levels of being upon death. Those with GOD, those just below GOD and those living on a state like this planet.




so when we get to heaven and you Mormons are a level above us, can we just ignore you or do we have to worship you too........

You know, I won't make such claims as that. For all I know, I can be on the lowest level and depending on what you do during your life, you may be one or more levels higher than I would be.

[avatar4321]

so when we get to heaven and you Mormons are a level above us, can we just ignore you or do we have to worship you too........

Why not strive for greater blessings? and no i dont think you have to worship anyone other the Father as Christ directed.

[PostmodernProphet]

I have for many years wondered why the gospels don't match up. And I have spoken to some alleged authorities about this and they can't explain it.

I'm sorry you're having trouble.....give me an example of "not matching up"....perhaps I can help....

[PostmodernProphet]

Why not strive for greater blessings?

the mansion has many rooms....I wouldn't mind a window with a nice view but I will take what he gives me.....besides, I plan on spending a lot of time outside.....

[avatar4321]

the mansion has many rooms....I wouldn't mind a window with a nice view but I will take what he gives me.....besides, I plan on spending a lot of time outside.....

I do as well. And ill take what He gives me. But when He offers more I am certainly not going to turn it down.

[logroller]

Of course not. Moses is the claimed author. But when Moses spoke of the beginning, he spoke of GODs and not a single GOD. I understand that it does not feel very good to be quoting scripture but to totally ignore the beginning and what the story is.

It is the tenet to some Christians but Christians have been arguing for a very long time. Prior to the NT, no doubt a lot of arguments were started over what this or that was supposed to have taken place. Jesus was long dead before records in writing about him came to be. Even today, when any event, such as the Iraq war happens, a lot of arguments start and some claim FACT A is true but others say, FACT A is not true but FACT B is the truth. Clearly both can't be true. We can't expect more clear remarks were made after the crucifixion happened. A lot of confused people were all over the place. Even Moses shows up centuries later to put the story down in writing and even that story is argued over.

Unlike some here, I don't come loaded with quotes from the Bible to offer as proof of this or that but the story in the Bible seems pretty clear to my eyes.

I am saying that Jesus is not THE GOD that is spoken of as GOD, but his son. As his son, he is also a GOD. God did not merely produce one god but not others. I believe those who reach heaven qualify to become GODs. Not as an only GOD, but one of a family of GODs. Humans don't exist as sole entities and it's sort of strange that GOD would be a sole cowboy either.

I am not trying to speak against GOD. I also want to be clear to all of you. I speak for my concepts. Avatar in my opinion does a better job of explaining Mormon teaching than I do.

My disclaimer is I speak only to my views and do not represent that I am offering Mormon teaching. We do teach that GOD was once like man or as we can see, Jesus was a man and now is a GOD so it can happen. We don't teach that just anybody can be a GOD no matter how they spent a human life. Clearly Hitler or Stalin won't make it. I am not saying that one must be a Mormon to make it.

We are all offering our views. I merely offer my view as something that seems to explain pretty much all that happened. And I don't promise a stick in your eye if you don't believe. Some Christians on their mighty perch promise that stick, but not this guy.

I believe we have posters who assume they speak for GOD. I suspect they read only the parts of the Bible they like. They don't pay a bit of attention to the rest of the Bible.
Ill not put a stick in your eye either. After millennia of translations, a can only imagine what we debate here has been already has been-- he we still struggle for consensus. Along the subject though, here's an exhaustive study if you feel like reading for a few hours.
http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=books&bookid=46&id=258

[PostmodernProphet]

I do as well. And ill take what He gives me. But when He offers more I am certainly not going to turn it down.

from everything I've ever read, what we get has nothing to do with what we have "earned"......thank goodness.....

[avatar4321]

from everything I've ever read, what we get has nothing to do with what we have "earned"......thank goodness.....

From what I've read, no one has claimed otherwise.

[PostmodernProphet]

From what I've read, no one has claimed otherwise.

????....


Why not strive for greater blessings?

[avatar4321]

????....

You think we earn blessings because God asks us to do something to recieve them?

[cadet]

You think we earn blessings because God asks us to do something to recieve them?

I think he's saying not to expect blessings from God. If you're only doing something for the reward... That's pretty selfish. But if He gives you something, don't squander it.

[PostmodernProphet]

You think we earn blessings because God asks us to do something to recieve them?

no, I think you've said that we can get extra blessings by doing something......

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by avatar4321 http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=625416#post625416)
You think we earn blessings because God asks us to do something to recieve them?


I think he's saying not to expect blessings from God. If you're only doing something for the reward... That's pretty selfish. But if He gives you something, don't squander it.

I was going to reply to this but the darned phone rang and guess who called me to ask me to do something for blessings?

Just teasin

[avatar4321]

no, I think you've said that we can get extra blessings by doing something......

And we can. We recieve blessings from God by doing what He asks. What you seem to think though is that we somehow earn those blessings. We don't. They are still gifts.

If a father promises to give his daugther a car if she graduates with honor, has it become anything less of a gift? She hasn't earned it. It's a gift that is predicated on her actions.

If God tells you that you will be healthy if you eat these certain foods, and you do so, is your health any less a gift from Him?

It's only through the Atonement that repentence is possible. It's only through the Atonement forgiveness is possible. It is only through the Atonement that we can recieve any gift from God.

[PostmodernProphet]

What you seem to think though is that we somehow earn those blessings.

just the opposite....I'm the one saying we don't earn any of them.....you're the one who has said, and just did it again, that we receive blessings for doing what he asks.....how on earth is that NOT "earning" them.....if the daughter, having been promised a car if she graduated with honor, and she put in the effort to get those grades but dad didn't give her the car, isn't her reaction going to be "that isn't fair....I EARNED that car!".......and she would be right....there is no person on earth who can say they receive a spot in heaven, or a nicer spot in heaven by doing what God asks.....

what do you say to a person who eats those same foods and gets cancer?.....oh, sorry, guess you don't get the blessing......good health isn't a gift and bad health isn't a curse......it's just life.....

[PostmodernProphet]

God is a guy standing on a street corner handing out flyers......some people won't make eye contact so they won't have to take one.......some take it and drop it on the ground right in front of him.....some take it but throw it away without looking at it......some read it and change their lives forever......that's how atonement works......