For Jahil: American Muslim women discuss their choice to unveil...

[Marcus Aurelius]

I suppose Jahil will now claim these women are not really Muslim.

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/21/135523680/lifting-the-veil-muslim-women-explain-their-choice


There are about 1 million Muslim women in America; 43 percent of them wear headscarves all the time, according to the Pew Research Center. About 48 percent — or half a million women — don't cover their hair, the survey found.

The split between women who've covered and women who've never done so has existed for decades. But now a generation of women is taking off the headscarf, or hijab.



Talking over falafel at her favorite restaurant, Abdelnabi explains why she stopped wearing the hijab.

She says that Islam teaches modesty — but wearing the hijab is taking it a step too far.
"I've done my research, and I don't feel its foundation is from Islam," she says. "I think it comes from Arab culture."


She says it's easy for some women to feel like the headscarf strips them of their individuality and turns them into a spokeswoman for the faith.

[Voted4Reagan]

Cant wait to see the response...

Jafar?

[jafar00]

Cant wait to see the response...

Jafar?

Yes? Response to what?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Cant wait to see the response...

Jafar?

Marcus nailed him . Jahil will now cleverly find a way to dismiss discussing the topic.
Tis' why his name is Jahil running dog. :laugh:

[Marcus Aurelius]

Marcus nailed him . Jahil will now cleverly find a way to dismiss discussing the topic.
Tis' why his name is Jahil running dog. :laugh:

he's pretending to have me on ignore... again ROFLMFAO

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

he's pretending to have me on ignore... again ROFLMFAO

Same way he pretends the evils of his cult do not exist. That his religion does not teach to beat the wives to make them obey the absolute authority of the man! -Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

Yes? Response to what?

Are you going to address the post Marcus made?

Well Jafar?

[aboutime]

Are you going to address the post Marcus made?

Well Jafar?


V4R. Trying to get the pretender, jafar to answer a question. Any question honestly here would almost be like asking Obama to admit he is a Republican.
Ain't gonna happen. At least not likely to happen since doing so would only prove Liar's have no Honest answers.

[cadet]

We've got a few Muslim girls at college. The freshmen ones are decked out in all the robes and such.
By the time they get halfway through, their veils turn into cheetah print, and they wear skin tight clothing to cover everything shorts and shirts don't cover.

And when they get to sophomore junior year, they look like normal tan girls. I think they realize the'll be looked at less the more they dress american. That's the whole point, right? to help men not fantasize about them?

And the Muslim guy's don't seem to give a crap any way. It's not like they're looking at them with all the American girls walking around in short shorts.

[fj1200]

Marcus nailed him .

:confused:


Yes? Response to what?


I suppose Jahil will now claim these women are not really Muslim.

Did he claim otherwise?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

:confused:





Did he claim otherwise?

^^^^^^^^^^^^ As he firmly clings to Jahil's skirt.:laugh:--Tyr

[fj1200]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ As he firmly clings to Jahil's skirt.:laugh:--Tyr

No response then?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

No response then?

Did you ask me a question? All I saw put to my comment about Jahil by you was this -- :confused:..
Next time be a bit more specific if you have a question you want an answer too.
It is noted that you at least seek advice from an honest man. ;)--Tyr

[fj1200]

Did you ask me a question? All I saw put to my comment about Jahil by you was this -- :confused:..
Next time be a bit more specific if you have a question you want an answer too.
It is noted that you at least seek advice from an honest man. ;)--Tyr

Someone with a modicum of intelligence would have been able to respond; thanks for proving me correct as I'll wait for those whose skirt you hide behind. All I'm trying to do is find out if Jafar mentioned something relating to the OP or if the argument is against a strawman.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Someone with a modicum of intelligence would have been able to respond; thanks for proving me correct as I'll wait for those whose skirt you hide behind. All I'm trying to do is find out if Jafar mentioned something relating to the OP or if the argument is against a strawman.

Yes, I saw the high level of intelligence you used when you post this as a reply--:confused:

Reason you ARE WAITING TO SEE ON ME IS BECAUSE I DO NOT HIDE BEHIND OR CLING TO ANYBODY'S SKIRT.

STAND ON MY OWN , THE WORLD BE DAMNED ... YES, I AM JUST THAT CONFIDENT IN MY PRINCIPLES and my application of those principles in my life..-TYR

[fj1200]

Yes, I saw the high level of intelligence you used when you post this as a reply--:confused:

Reason you ARE WAITING TO SEE ON ME IS BECAUSE I DO NOT HIDE BEHIND OR CLING TO ANYBODY'S SKIRT.

STAND ON MY OWN , THE WORLD BE DAMNED ... YES, I AM JUST THAT CONFIDENT IN MY PRINCIPLES and my application of those principles in my life..-TYR

Confidence in principles is completely different than correctness of principles. Now if you can do no more than deflect then I will wait for someone else to validate the premise of the OP. I'm sure at the point you'll pop out from behind the kilt and tell us all, "yeah, what he said."

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Confidence in principles is completely different than correctness of principles. Now if you can do no more than deflect then I will wait for someone else to validate the premise of the OP. I'm sure at the point you'll pop out from behind the kilt and tell us all, "yeah, what he said."

Are you truly this dense? Why don't you ask Marcus if validation is truly your goal. It is not my thread I have no compulsion to validate the OP. Just as I have no compulsion to give some answer you want or desire.
I am certainly not known here for being a yes what he said type of poster. My positions on issues are my own and perfectly clear because I hold nothing back when presenting my opinions. Your silly and false accusations are laughable.
Now ask the OP for further clarification of the premise of his words and stop being so damn dense, it's boring...-Tyr

[tailfins]

Same way he pretends the evils of his cult do not exist. That his religion does not teach to beat the wives to make them obey the absolute authority of the man! -Tyr

A bit off topic, but wouldn't this create an abundant supply of available women for American, Indian and Chinese single men? Even Bubba the parking valet would seem like a real catch when compared to a wife beater or a drunk.

[fj1200]

Are you truly this dense? Why don't you ask Marcus if validation is truly your goal. It is not my thread I have no compulsion to validate the OP. Just as I have no compulsion to give some answer you want or desire.
I am certainly not known here for being a yes what he said type of poster. My positions on issues are my own and perfectly clear because I hold nothing back when presenting my opinions. Your silly and false accusations are laughable.
Now ask the OP for further clarification of the premise of his words and stop being so damn dense, it's boring...-Tyr

If you could actually comprehend post #10 you would see that I did ask. Now what you also don't comprehend is that you fully accepted the premise when you said Jafar was "nailed." So you either can validate the OP or you're just piling on in a strawman thread; which is it?

As far as you being a yes man, the daisy chains in which you participate with certain other posters is pretty obvious.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If you could actually comprehend post #10 you would see that I did ask. Now what you also don't comprehend is that you fully accepted the premise when you said Jafar was "nailed." So you either can validate the OP or you're just piling on in a strawman thread; which is it?

As far as you being a yes man, the daisy chains in which you participate with certain other posters is pretty obvious.

So the mighty you declare this a strawman thread and I should try to prove you wrong! Sorry buster, it doesn't work that way with me. I get to reply with my own words and how I see fit not jump to your questions.
Daisy chains were fine with you when you had your little daisy boy here to cling to. What's the matter , you feeling lonely for that "mighty lying" shirttail to cling to?:laugh2:--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

A bit off topic, but wouldn't this create an abundant supply of available women for American, Indian and Chinese single men? Even Bubba the parking valet would seem like a real catch when compared to a wife beater or a drunk.

Perhaps so, if the women were able to break free long enough to meet and find that out about other non-muslim men. They are not! And that is why theie women are not allowed to go out without an escort even there within that religious culture or show much of their body.
The muslim men are a bunch of cowardly , jealous lying dumbffkks... as is evidenced by their massive need to feel superior by abusing their women!--Tyr

[Drummond]

Perhaps so, if the women were able to break free long enough to meet and find that out about other non-muslim men. They are not! And that is why theie women are not allowed to go out without an escort even there within that religious culture or show much of their body.
The muslim men are a bunch of cowardly , jealous lying dumbffkks... as is evidenced by their massive need to feel superior by abusing their women!--Tyr

... and Jahil's disappeared .. nothing from him, it seems, for the past couple of days.

Still, didn't he post something about being in France ? Maybe the French started objecting to his wife's Hijab ?

[gabosaurus]

Is there a reason why this matters to anyone?

There are some faiths that feel that women who don't wear skirts are promiscuous sluts.

[aboutime]

Is there a reason why this matters to anyone?

There are some faiths that feel that women who don't wear skirts are promiscuous sluts.


Spoken from obvious experience. Bet you wear pants all the time Gabby. King of your Castle too!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

... and Jahil's disappeared .. nothing from him, it seems, for the past couple of days.

Still, didn't he post something about being in France ? Maybe the French started objecting to his wife's Hijab ?

I believe he mentioned being in France and something about skiing. If they did accost him about his wife's dress he likely would only obey . Obvious that he has no backbone.
My guess is if a religious Islamist holy man told him to do anything he'd do it no questions asked. That my friend is why he and his kind are dangerous to the world. Total insane brainwashing.--Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

Is there a reason why this matters to anyone?

There are some faiths that feel that women who don't wear skirts are promiscuous sluts.

Why are you defending the De-Feminizing of women and condemning them to second class status in a male dominated patriarchal society?

[aboutime]

I believe he mentioned being in France and something about skiing. If they did accost him about his wife's dress he likely would only obey . Obvious that he has no backbone.
My guess is if a religious Islamist holy man told him to do anything he'd do it no questions asked. That my friend is why he and his kind are dangerous to the world. Total insane brainwashing.--Tyr


Tyr. Imagine jafar SKIING? No wind-burn, or frost-bite with such heavy, head-to-toe protection per Islamist instructions for skiing.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Is there a reason why this matters to anyone?

There are some faiths that feel that women who don't wear skirts are promiscuous sluts.

link?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Why are you defending the De-Feminizing of women and condemning them to second class status in a male dominated patriarchal society?

Gabby being a true lefty has read the handbook that tells her to be pro-Islamist over most other liberal bullshat positions. You see the lefties plan on the muslims destroying the West for them. Insanely thinking they will then destroy the "monster". Should it happen that way their dumb azzes wouldn't stand a chance against the muslims.

[aboutime]

link?


Marcus. Are you seriously asking Gabby, the hit-and-run poster for a LINK?

That would be like asking Obama if he ever learned to count above the 10 fingers, and toes for Economics 101.

[fj1200]

So the mighty you declare this a strawman thread and I should try to prove you wrong! Sorry buster, it doesn't work that way with me. I get to reply with my own words and how I see fit not jump to your questions.

You're the one who validated the premise, it's either correct or it's not. Based on your responses the answer is obvious.


Daisy chains were fine with you when you had your little daisy boy here to cling to. What's the matter , you feeling lonely for that "mighty lying" shirttail to cling to?:laugh2:--Tyr

I see your desperation has presented itself by bringing up former posters. Good on 'ya bro.


Tyr. Imagine jafar SKIING? No wind-burn, or frost-bite with such heavy, head-to-toe protection per Islamist instructions for skiing.

Is there a hadith related to Muslims skiing? Who knew?

/rhetorical questions

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You're the one who validated the premise, it's either correct or it's not. Based on your responses the answer is obvious.
I see your desperation has presented itself by bringing up former posters. Good on 'ya bro.


If your are ashamed of your history here don't make lame attempts at blasting another poster's history here. You get truth tossed back at you if you do.:laugh:
Rhetorical questions kind of defeat the purpose of a message board Hoss. ;)
Just because you don't expect or desire a reply doesn't mean I will not give one .--TYR

[fj1200]

If your are ashamed of your history here don't make lame attempts at blasting another poster's history here. You get truth tossed back at you if you do.:laugh:
Rhetorical questions kind of defeat the purpose of a message board Hoss. ;)
Just because you don't expect or desire a reply doesn't mean I will not give one .--TYR

Why would I be ashamed of my history here? You're the one bringing up other posters. Honestly if anyone else can interpret WTF you're talking about it would be of great help to me because you're dancing no where near the premise of the OP.

BTW, the rhetorical questions were not directed at you, they were directed at another poster who is (likely) unable/unwilling to answer them anyway so I thought in the best interest of all just to tag them as rhetorical.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Marcus. Are you seriously asking Gabby, the hit-and-run poster for a LINK?

That would be like asking Obama if he ever learned to count above the 10 fingers, and toes for Economics 101.

Now, I will not have you disrespecting the President like that. You know very well he can count all the way up to 57.

[cadet]

link?

Amish.
4670

[aboutime]

Now, I will not have you disrespecting the President like that. You know very well he can count all the way up to 57.


Marcus. I apologize. Wonder how many other politicians in Congress today also brag about visiting 57 states?
Other than Congressman Johnson...and his Famous GUAM TIPPING rant, of course?

[tailfins]

If your are ashamed of your history here don't make lame attempts at blasting another poster's history here. You get truth tossed back at you if you do.:laugh:
Rhetorical questions kind of defeat the purpose of a message board Hoss. ;)
Just because you don't expect or desire a reply doesn't mean I will not give one .--TYR

To pass the time?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Why would I be ashamed of my history here? You're the one bringing up other posters. Honestly if anyone else can interpret WTF you're talking about it would be of great help to me because you're dancing no where near the premise of the OP.

Doofus, you are the one that made the daisy chain comment which brought up other posters! I merely reminded you of your own past actions here. If you don't like mud don't start trying to toss it at others. -Tyr

[Marcus Aurelius]

Amish.
4670

again... link?

I did a GOOGLE search, and I can't seem to find anything stating that the Amish consider women sluts if they don't wear a skirt.

[aboutime]

again... link?

I did a GOOGLE search, and I can't seem to find anything stating that the Amish consider women sluts if they don't wear a skirt.


That's funny Marcus. Now you've got somebody scratching their head, trying to find something like that with Google.

Thanks for the laughs. Amish Sluts?

Wait a second. I heard about a new reality show called "The Amish Mafia". Gotta be some sluts there! Ya think?

[tailfins]

Now, I will not have you disrespecting the President like that. You know very well he can count all the way up to 57.

I would say that's evidence B-HO CAN'T count.


That's funny Marcus. Now you've got somebody scratching their head, trying to find something like that with Google.

Thanks for the laughs. Amish Sluts?

Wait a second. I heard about a new reality show called "The Amish Mafia". Gotta be some sluts there! Ya think?

Her name is Esther. It boils down to how you define "Amish". It could mean simply born to an Amish family or it could mean practicing Amish. Both exist. Now let's examine the meaning of the word "Mafia". After all Gretchen Wilson is part of "The Music Mafia".

[fj1200]

Doofus, you are the one that made the daisy chain comment which brought up other posters! I merely reminded you of your own past actions here. If you don't like mud don't start trying to toss it at others. -Tyr

"Daisy chain" was reference to your "yes man" actions which you attempted to deny. Still no where near the OP I see.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

"Daisy chain" was reference to your "yes man" actions which you attempted to deny. Still no where near the OP I see.

Hey dipshit , I will agree with whomever I want here. If you want to declare me a yes man you will not get many that will agree with you I suspect. Nothing about me suggests that I am not my own man here or out in the real world! Hell, I am greatly subdued here if anything at all!

At least I don't tag along praising a lying bastard like you did yes man....Boy Wonder..:laugh:
As foolish as you look on this one would think your dumbass would cut your losses while you can but carry on I'm enjoying your flailing away Pedro.- :laugh2:--Tyr

[fj1200]

At least I don't tag along praising a lying bastard like you did yes man....Boy Wonder..:laugh:


Who did I praise?


Still no where near the OP I see.

:dunno:

[aboutime]

"Daisy chain" was reference to your "yes man" actions which you attempted to deny. Still no where near the OP I see.


fj. For your information. A DAISY CHAIN is nothing more than a line of people that stand between point A, and point B, and they pass, or hand whatever they have to the next person in the DAISY CHAIN.

ASS KISSING is what you are proficient, and expert in here, as you attempt to sound so highly educated. Not Daisy Chaining.

[fj1200]

fj. For your information. A DAISY CHAIN is nothing more than a line of people that stand between point A, and point B, and they pass, or hand whatever they have to the next person in the DAISY CHAIN.

Not exactly. The definition (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=daisy+chain) fits. ;)


ASS KISSING is what you are proficient, and expert in here, as you attempt to sound so highly educated. Not Daisy Chaining.

Whose ass am I kissing?

[aboutime]

Not exactly. The definition (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=daisy+chain) fits. ;)



Whose ass am I kissing?


Your Own....4686

[fj1200]

Your Own....

Well that would be pretty difficult. Thanks for trying.

[tailfins]

Marcus nailed him . Jahil will now cleverly find a way to dismiss discussing the topic.
Tis' why his name is Jahil running dog. :laugh:

You do know that calling a muslim a dog is worse than calling them an a$$hole. Is it really necessary?

[jafar00]

You do know that calling a muslim a dog is worse than calling them an a$$hole. Is it really necessary?

Hence the reason several members here are on my ignore list. All they do is throw insult after insult instead of debating with any substance.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Hence the reason several members here are on my ignore list. All they do is throw insult after insult instead of debating with any substance.

try offering some substance yourself, Jahil. I have personally used Islamic websites run by noted Islamic scholars as sources, and you call them anti-Islamic websites because they disprove something you claim or go against something you say.

You offer no substance, so you get none. Simple.

[aboutime]

Hence the reason several members here are on my ignore list. All they do is throw insult after insult instead of debating with any substance.


And it's so much fun being able to expose jafar as the liar we all know him to be. All without him having the courage to respond to the Truth...by playing the cowards game of Ignore...or claiming to ignore to avoid any personal responsibility. Of which. He has none.

[Drummond]

Hence the reason several members here are on my ignore list. All they do is throw insult after insult instead of debating with any substance.

Well, I've seen a new poster join recently who shows every sign of being extremely knowledgeable about the Koran, and Islam (you know who I mean .. you welcomed him yourself on another thread).

Should further debates occur between the two of you (- and I'm looking forward to seeing them -), I trust that the quantity of substance will ensure that you will stick with those debates ?

Such substance should prove an effective counter to propagandist preference - and be altogether more revealing of the truth.

[aboutime]

Hence the reason several members here are on my ignore list. All they do is throw insult after insult instead of debating with any substance.


jafar. You just don't get it, do ya?

If, as you insist. You have several members here on your Ignore List. How do you know "All they do is throw insult after insult" if you are Ignoring them???

Nice try at hiding your cowardly ways. But we all know. You are using Jim's excuse of Ignore to Hide, and Permit you to run away, never committing yourself to being personally responsible by attempting to ANSWER our questions.

Remember how I formerly called you a "false prophet"?

You have proven to all of us. How much of a 'false prophet' you really are. And a wimpy kind of person as well.

[stevecanuck]

Since I'm not familiar with Jafar00's posting history, could someone tell me if he claims muslims only fight in self-defense, or does he admit that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Since I'm not familiar with Jafar00's posting history, could someone tell me if he claims muslims only fight in self-defense, or does he admit that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?

He claims the "true" muslims can do no wrong. Every proven evil deed done by a muslim was done by a fake muslim according to our Jafar.

The military conquest he will claim Islam spread its light and the victims resisted by violence and left Islam no other choice! -Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well, I've seen a new poster join recently who shows every sign of being extremely knowledgeable about the Koran, and Islam (you know who I mean .. you welcomed him yourself on another thread).

Should further debates occur between the two of you (- and I'm looking forward to seeing them -), I trust that the quantity of substance will ensure that you will stick with those debates ?

Such substance should prove an effective counter to propagandist preference - and be altogether more revealing of the truth.

My friend, I predict that Jafar will find ways to avoid debating with Steve.
We shall see how soon he ignores Steve's posts because Steve can correct Jafar's misrepresentation of Islam.
I've seen and read a great many of Steve's posts on the subject at another forum and his knowledge is at a very high level. Thus Jafar will fear that and even know Allah will not help him in a debate with Steve. -Tyr

[aboutime]

Since I'm not familiar with Jafar00's posting history, could someone tell me if he claims muslims only fight in self-defense, or does he admit that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?


Steve. Honestly, as you will eventually see. jafar twists, and spins in the wind on many occasions. All the while, intentionally, or thankfully...through the use of Ignore...avoiding honest answers to honest questions.
In most cases. Anything anyone asks jafar to answer. Usually becomes a standard tirade, or rant from an obviously brainwashed individual who refuses to admit his unwaivering support for groups like Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood.
In other words. If you allow jafar to control the conversation. There will be no honest replies, and only the repetitive, standard defense of the Palestinian Victims, always being attacked by Israel...despite the near-daily rocket attacks into Israel.

Test jafar for yourself. If he has the courage to honestly answer you. And, notwithstanding the IGNORE feature provided for cowards.

[jafar00]

Since I'm not familiar with Jafar00's posting history, could someone tell me if he claims muslims only fight in self-defense, or does he admit that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?

Sure, ask my "fan" club. You will get a fair and honest answer. :poke:

[aboutime]

Sure, ask my "fan" club. You will get a fair and honest answer. :poke:


jafar. Might you be speaking about the Imaginary Fan Club you claim NOT TO SEE while holding them on Ignore?

Hypocrisy isn't your worst trait.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by stevecanuck http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=625257#post625257)
Since I'm not familiar with Jafar00's posting history, could someone tell me if he claims muslims only fight in self-defense, or does he admit that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?



Sure, ask my "fan" club. You will get a fair and honest answer. :poke:

This is the type of answer you'll typically get from Jahil. A non-answer answer. He tells so many lies, and contradicts himself so often, I think even he has trouble keeping up with his own nonsense, thus these little nonsensical responses of his.

[Voted4Reagan]

This is the type of answer you'll typically get from Jahil. A non-answer answer. He tells so many lies, and contradicts himself so often, I think even he has trouble keeping up with his own nonsense, thus these little nonsensical responses of his.

Jafar always says that we dont understand the writings of the Prophet(may peace be upon him) because we cant understand the language of the Quran.

I am anxious to see him speak about this with Steve who has this knowledge.

Well Jafar?

[stevecanuck]

Sure, ask my "fan" club. You will get a fair and honest answer. :poke:

That was an obvious evasion. Do you claim muslims only fight in self-defense, or do you acknowledge that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?

[Drummond]

Jafar always says that we dont understand the writings of the Prophet(may peace be upon him) because we cant understand the language of the Quran.

I am anxious to see him speak about this with Steve who has this knowledge.

Well Jafar?

... same here ! I'm looking forward to these exchanges ... if Jafar's up for it, that is ...

[aboutime]

That was an obvious evasion. Do you claim muslims only fight in self-defense, or do you acknowledge that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?


Stevecanuck. Obviously. Jafar is talking about this Fan Club...4718. Jafar, Jafar, and Jafar.

[jafar00]

That was an obvious evasion. Do you claim muslims only fight in self-defense, or do you acknowledge that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?

No, Islam was not spread by military conquest.

The "Islam was spread by the Sword" Myth is absurd. The same cannot be said for Christianity especially after the Crusades.

Which army went to Indonesia, the most populous Islamic country? Which army went to Malaysia? How about the west coast of Africa?

[stevecanuck]

That was an obvious evasion. Do you claim muslims only fight in self-defense, or do you acknowledge that the first muslims created a vast empire via military conquest?

It's a very easy question. Do you need clarification before you answer it?

[Marcus Aurelius]

No, Islam was not spread by military conquest.

The "Islam was spread by the Sword" Myth is absurd. The same cannot be said for Christianity especially after the Crusades.

Which army went to Indonesia, the most populous Islamic country? Which army went to Malaysia? How about the west coast of Africa?

http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Jihad-Conversion-Imperialism-Slavery/dp/1440118469

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T4QAKBycL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg


In this groundbreaking book, Khan demonstrates that Prophet Muhammad meticulously followed these misguided principles and established the ideal template of Islamic Jihad for his future followers to pursue, and that Muslims have been perpetuating the cardinal principles of Jihad ever since.
Find out the true nature of Islam, particularly its doctrine of Jihad, and what it means to the modern world, and also learn about



The core tenets of Islam and its history
The propagation of Islam by force and other means
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Arab-Islamic imperialism
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And much more!

The commands of Allah are perpetual in nature, so are the actions of Prophet Muhammad. Jihad has been the way to win converts to Islam since its birth fourteen centuries ago, and it won't change anytime soon. Find out why in Islamic Jihad.

[stevecanuck]

No, Islam was not spread by military conquest.

The "Islam was spread by the Sword" Myth is absurd. The same cannot be said for Christianity especially after the Crusades.

Which army went to Indonesia, the most populous Islamic country? Which army went to Malaysia? How about the west coast of Africa?

Nice cherry picking. You choose areas where islam was spread largely through trade in later centuries. Now, let's go back to the first muslims. They travelled north and attacked the Byzantines and Persians, then spread out from there. They conquered, looted, raped, and enslaved as they went. all of which is indisputable historical fact. See, you are a liar. I was right the first time.

[stevecanuck]

http://www.amazon.com/Islamic-Jihad-Conversion-Imperialism-Slavery/dp/1440118469

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T4QAKBycL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

Thanks for the book title. I now have it downloaded to my Kobo, and it's next on my reading list.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

No, Islam was not spread by military conquest.

The "Islam was spread by the Sword" Myth is absurd. The same cannot be said for Christianity especially after the Crusades.

Which army went to Indonesia, the most populous Islamic country? Which army went to Malaysia? How about the west coast of Africa?


http://history-world.org/islam4.htm

Islam From The Beginning To 1300
Date: 2002

The Spread Of Islam

The Islamic state expanded very rapidly after the death of Muhammad
through remarkable successes both at converting unbelievers to Islam and by
military conquests of the Islamic community's opponents. Expansion of the
Islamic state was an understandable development, since Muhammad himself had
successfully established the new faith through conversion and conquest of
those who stood against him. Immediately after the Prophet's death in 632, Abu
Bakr, as the first Caliph, continued the effort to abolish paganism among the
Arab tribes, and also to incorporate Arabia into a region controlled by the
political power of Medina. United by their faith in God and a commitment to
political consolidation, the merchant elite of Arabia succeeded in
consolidating their power throughout the Arabian peninsula and began to launch
some exploratory offensives north toward Syria.

Expansion Under The First Four Caliphs

During the reigns of the first four caliphs (632-661), Islam spread
rapidly. The wars of expansion were also advanced by the devotion of the
faithful to the concept of jihad. Muslims are obliged to extend the faith to
unbelievers and to defend Islam from attack. The original concept of jihad did
not include agressive warfare against non-Muslims, but "holy war" was
sometimes waged by Muslims whose interpretation of the Koran allowed them such
latitude. Jihad was directly responsible for some of the early conquests of
Islam outside of the Arabian peninsula.

The Islamic cause was also aided by political upheavals occurring outside
of Arabia. The Muslim triumphs in the Near East can be partly accounted for by
the long series of wars between the Byzantine and Persian empires. Earlier
Byzantine victories had left both sides exhausted and open to conquest.
Moreover, the inhabitants of Syria and Egypt, alienated by religious dissent
and resenting the attempts of the Byzantine Empire to impose Christianity on
the population, were eager to be free of Byzantine rule. In 636, Arab armies
conquered Syria. The Muslims then won Iraq from the Persians and, within ten
years after Muhammad's death, subdued Persia itself. The greater part of Egypt
fell with little resistance in 640 and the rest shortly afterward. By the end
of the reigns of the first four caliphs, Islam had vastly increased its
territory in the Near East and Africa.

^^^^^^ All this was at the pointed end of sword and spear! Death and destruction was the method used not teaching, preaching conversions.
Much more slaughter was to follow!!! --Tyr

[stevecanuck]

The possibility of having a real debate with jafar00 is zero. I'll be happy to point out his lies, although the rest of you are already doing that quite nicely, but an honest exchange is just never going to happen. His idea of rebuttal is to simply say, "IS NOT!", so I don't really see any point in engaging him.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The possibility of having a real debate with jafar00 is zero. I'll be happy to point out his lies, although the rest of you are already doing that quite nicely, but an honest exchange is just never going to happen. His idea of rebuttal is to simply say, "IS NOT!", so I don't really see any point in engaging him.

I suspect that you are correct. I had hope that Jafar would quote verses from the Koran to defend his positions but apparently he must think the Koran is not up to the task!!

Would a real muslim run from defending the Koran and Islam?

Jafar saw no reason to run when it was we with lesser knowledge of the Koran that he faced.

Now when the possibility of facing an opponent with great knowledge of the Koran Jafar chooses to be very evasive.
We must ask ourselves why??? What does Jafar suddenly fear so much?

Will not ALLAH GUIDE HIM IN DEFENSE OF ISLAM??

You Jafar supporters should be waking up now. ARE YOU??--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Islam From The Beginning To 1300
Date: 2002

The Spread Of Islam

The Islamic state expanded very rapidly after the death of Muhammad
through remarkable successes both at converting unbelievers to Islam and by
military conquests of the Islamic community's opponents. Expansion of the
Islamic state was an understandable development, since Muhammad himself had
successfully established the new faith through conversion and conquest of
those who stood against him. Immediately after the Prophet's death in 632, Abu
Bakr, as the first Caliph, continued the effort to abolish paganism among the
Arab tribes, and also to incorporate Arabia into a region controlled by the
political power of Medina. United by their faith in God and a commitment to
political consolidation, the merchant elite of Arabia succeeded in
consolidating their power throughout the Arabian peninsula and began to launch
some exploratory offensives north toward Syria.

Expansion Under The First Four Caliphs

During the reigns of the first four caliphs (632-661), Islam spread
rapidly. The wars of expansion were also advanced by the devotion of the
faithful to the concept of jihad. Muslims are obliged to extend the faith to
unbelievers and to defend Islam from attack. The original concept of jihad did
not include agressive warfare against non-Muslims, but "holy war" was
sometimes waged by Muslims whose interpretation of the Koran allowed them such
latitude. Jihad was directly responsible for some of the early conquests of
Islam outside of the Arabian peninsula.

The Islamic cause was also aided by political upheavals occurring outside
of Arabia. The Muslim triumphs in the Near East can be partly accounted for by
the long series of wars between the Byzantine and Persian empires. Earlier
Byzantine victories had left both sides exhausted and open to conquest.
Moreover, the inhabitants of Syria and Egypt, alienated by religious dissent
and resenting the attempts of the Byzantine Empire to impose Christianity on
the population, were eager to be free of Byzantine rule. In 636, Arab armies
conquered Syria. The Muslims then won Iraq from the Persians and, within ten
years after Muhammad's death, subdued Persia itself. The greater part of Egypt
fell with little resistance in 640 and the rest shortly afterward. By the end
of the reigns of the first four caliphs, Islam had vastly increased its
territory in the Near East and Africa.

http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/
Tears of JihadThese figures are a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad.
Africa- Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa. 120 million Africans
Christians- The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] . A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad. So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have:--60 million Christians
Hindus--Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.] The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”--80 million Hindus
Buddhists--Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam); everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson,World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.] 10 million Buddhists
Jews -- Oddly enough there were not enough Jews killed in jihad to significantly affect the totals of the Great Annihilation. The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective, but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that, the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.
This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.

[Drummond]

The possibility of having a real debate with jafar00 is zero. I'll be happy to point out his lies, although the rest of you are already doing that quite nicely, but an honest exchange is just never going to happen. His idea of rebuttal is to simply say, "IS NOT!", so I don't really see any point in engaging him.

Fair enough, Steve. Even so .. repeated demonstrations of Jafar's evasiveness in the face of a knowledgeable opponent have their value. Remember, there will be those who come here to gain impressions of debates they see, who may not even be active contributors, nor plan to be any time soon. I'd personally not want to see Jafar manage to score points just because he is NOT tested in debate as he could be.

Hope you agree - I really don't want a potentially pro-Islamic mindset in others to be encouraged when the proper efforts could instead let truth flourish.

[Robert A Whit]

Fair enough, Steve. Even so .. repeated demonstrations of Jafar's evasiveness in the face of a knowledgeable opponent have their value. Remember, there will be those who come here to gain impressions of debates they see, who may not even be active contributors, nor plan to be any time soon. I'd personally not want to see Jafar manage to score points just because he is NOT tested in debate as he could be.

Hope you agree - I really don't want a potentially pro-Islamic mindset in others to be encouraged when the proper efforts could instead let truth flourish.

I have to comment since I have stayed out of this war of words.

It is well and good to explain to Muslims or other posters what one believes. Jafar says what he believes.

Closely held beliefs won't be changed.

Debate won't work in this case.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Thanks for the book title. I now have it downloaded to my Kobo, and it's next on my reading list.

no worries, mate.

[Drummond]

I have to comment since I have stayed out of this war of words.

It is well and good to explain to Muslims or other posters what one believes. Jafar says what he believes.

Closely held beliefs won't be changed.

Debate won't work in this case.

Reasonable points. But what about those who haven't formed solid opinions, and could waver, or flip, one way or the other ? Or .. what about those who do maintain their 'closely held beliefs', yet see that successful challenges to them are easily made ? Such demonstrations could help encourage a reticence of propagandist expression, where otherwise its free expression might persuade the gullible.

[jafar00]

Muslims ruled Spain peacefully for 800 years and it became a model for prosperity, equality with Muslims, Jews, Christians working together, preserving knowledge etc.. That was until the Crusades came along forcing people to convert to Christianity or die.

Muslims ruled India for 1000 years so they had plenty of opportunity to spread Islam by the sword, yet today India is 80% non Muslim.

De Lacy O'Leary (Non Muslim Historian) wrote in his book "Islam at the crossroads"


History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.

Furthermore, forced conversion and spreading Islam by the sword is in direct conflict with 2:256 of the Qur'aan.

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error

Also in a famous Hadith, the Prophet Mohamed (saw) warned that he would bear witness against any Muslim who wronged a non Muslim citizen of a Muslim country.

According to the Reader's Digest Almanac of 1986, Islam was the fastest growing religion between 1934 and 1984 growing at the rate of 235%. Christianity by only 47%.

Which wars in those 50 years were to spread Islam? :)

[Drummond]

Muslims ruled Spain peacefully for 800 years and it became a model for prosperity, equality with Muslims, Jews, Christians working together, preserving knowledge etc.. That was until the Crusades came along forcing people to convert to Christianity or die.

Muslims ruled India for 1000 years so they had plenty of opportunity to spread Islam by the sword, yet today India is 80% non Muslim.

De Lacy O'Leary (Non Muslim Historian) wrote in his book "Islam at the crossroads"

Furthermore, forced conversion and spreading Islam by the sword is in direct conflict with 2:256 of the Qur'aan.

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error

Also in a famous Hadith, the Prophet Mohamed (saw) warned that he would bear witness against any Muslim who wronged a non Muslim citizen of a Muslim country.

According to the Reader's Digest Almanac of 1986, Islam was the fastest growing religion between 1934 and 1984 growing at the rate of 235%. Christianity by only 47%.

Which wars in those 50 years were to spread Islam? :)

It's 'surprisingly' easy to find material showing that not only IS forced conversion a feature of what loyal Muslims have got up to in the past, but that they continue with it to this day. Indeed .. in this way, as in others, Islamists show themselves totally resistant to improvement over time. World standards improve. Enlightened attitudes predominate. EXCEPT for Islamists, however .. they remain locked in their savagery, fossilised .....

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/raymond-ibrahim/islam%E2%80%99s-uninterrupted-history-of-forced-conversions/


Finding and connecting similar patterns of behavior throughout Islamic history is one of the most objective ways of determining whether something is or is not part of Muslim civilization.

Consider the issue of forced conversion in Islam, a phenomenon that has a long history with ample precedents. Indeed, from its inception, most of those who embraced Islam did so under duress, beginning with the Ridda wars and during the age of conquests, and to escape dhimmi status. This is a simple fact.

Yet, when one examines today’s cases of forced conversions with those from centuries past, identical patterns emerge, demonstrating great continuity.

Consider:

Days ago in Pakistan, two Christian men were severely beaten with iron rods and left for dead by a group of Muslims, simply because they refused to convert to Islam. According to Compass Direct News (http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/pakistan/article_116947.html), they were returning from a church service when they were accosted by six Muslims. After they discovered they were Christian, the Muslims then started questioning them about their faith and later tried to force them to recite the Kalma [Islamic conversion creed, “There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger”] and become Muslims, telling them that this was the only way they could live peacefully in the city. They also offered monetary incentives and “protection” to Ishfaq and Naeem [the Christians], but the two refused to renounce Christianity.

After cajoling the two Christians for some time,” the Muslims pretended to go away, only to ram their car into the Christians: “The Muslims [then] got out of the car armed with iron rods and attacked Ishfaq and Naeem, shouting that they should either recite the Kalma or be prepared to die…severely beating the two Christians, fracturing Ishfaq Munawar’s jaw and breaking five teeth, and seriously injuring Masih…. [T]he two Christians fell unconscious, and the young Muslim men left assuming they had killed them.”

Contrast this contemporary account with the following anecdote from some 500 years past (excerpted from [I]Witnesses for Christ (http://www.amazon.com/Witnesses-Christ-Christian-Neomartyrs-1437-1860/dp/0881411965), pgs.62-64):

In the year 1522, two Christian brothers in Ottoman Egypt were denounced by local Muslims “mostly out of jealousy and envy”; so the emir arrested them and “began flattering them and asking questions about their faith.” The brothers made it clear that they were firm adherents of Christianity. “The Muslims in the audience became enraged with the brothers when they heard their answers, and they began screaming and demanding they must become Muslims.” The brothers responded by refusing to “deny the faith we received from our forefathers, but we will remain unshaken and very firm in it until the end.”

The Muslim judge deciding their case told the Christian brothers that if they simply said the Kalma and embraced Islam, they “would be given many honors and much glory”; otherwise, they would die. At that point, the brothers’ mother came to support them, but “when the Muslims in court noticed her, they fell upon her, tore her clothing, and gave her a thorough beating.”

After rebuking them for their savagery, the brothers reaffirmed that they would never deny Christianity for Islam, adding “behold our necks, do what you wish, but do it quickly.

Hearing this, one of the Muslims in the audience became so angry that he took out a knife and stabbed Kyrmidoles [one brother] in the chest, while someone else kicked him as hard as possible, and another dropped a large stone on his head. Finally, they plucked out his eyes. Thus Kyrmidoles died. As for Gabriel [his brother] they threw him to the ground and one of the soldiers severed his right shoulder and then proceeded and cut off his head.

Muslims specialise in beheadings, wouldn't you agree, Jafar ?

http://michellemalkin.com/2006/08/29/islams-long-history-of-forced-conversions/


Forced conversions in Islamic history are not exceptional—they have been the norm, across three continents—Asia, Africa, and Europe—for over 13 centuries. Orders for conversion were decreed under all the early Islamic dynasties—Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, and Mamluks. Additional extensive examples of forced conversion were recorded under both Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish rule (the latter until its collapse in the 20th century), the Shi’ite Safavid and Qajar dynasties of Persia/Iran, and during the jihad ravages on the Indian subcontinent, beginning with the early 11th century campaigns of Mahmud of Ghazni, and recurring under the Delhi Sultanate, and Moghul dynasty until the collapse of Muslim suzerainty in the 18th century following the British conquest of India.

Moreover, during jihad—even the jihad campaigns of the 20th century [i.e., the jihad genocide of the Armenians during World War I, the Moplah jihad in Southern India [1921], the jihad against the Assyrians of Iraq [early 1930s], the jihads against the Chinese of Indonesia and the Christian Ibo of southern Nigeria in the 1960s, and the jihad against the Christians and Animists of the southern Sudan from 1983 to 2001], the (dubious) concept of “no compulsion” (Koran 2:256; which was cited with tragic irony during the Fox reporters “confessional (http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/27/centanni-wiig-freed/)”!), has always been meaningless. A consistent practice was to enslave populations taken from outside the boundaries of the “Dar al Islam”, where Islamic rule (and Law) prevailed. Inevitably fresh non-Muslim slaves, including children, were Islamized within a generation, their ethnic and linguistic origins erased. Two enduring and important mechanisms for this conversion were concubinage and the slave militias—practices still evident in the contemporary jihad waged by the Arab Muslim Khartoum government against the southern Sudanese Christians and Animists. And Julia Duin reported in early 2002 that murderous jihad terror campaigns—including, prominently, forced conversions to Islam—continued to be waged against the Christians of Indonesia’s Moluccan Islands.

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/bulgariaentire-villages-being-forced-to.html


I remember a few years ago when I was telling people that while some Muslims might be coming into the West to assimilate, there were more than enough of them coming in who had other ideas, ideas of taking over. Many people did not agree with me and now Muslims are not even hiding their agenda. Recently we have seen Muslims in the UK (http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/01/ukmuslims-we-will-not-assimilate.html) and Russia (http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009/03/russiaislamic-law-allowed-in-chechnya.html) freely admitting that they are not in non-Islamic countries to assimilate. Now the situation is escalating as entire villages in Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) are being forced to convert to Wahhabi Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi). It is time that some drastic actions start taking place. Like ending Muslim immigration and declaring Sharia law illegal (http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/09/tancredo-proposes-anti-sharia-bill.html). We do not need barbarity of Islamic law and culture in our societies.

Jafar, this is one case of where propaganda and clear, indisputable truth just don't mix. As lengthy as this post of mine has been, I could've made it twice as long by posting further examples showing how false your assertion TRULY IS.

[stevecanuck]

Jafar is still avoiding the issue of how islam initially spread. That's because any history book, including "The Great Arab Conquests" by Hugh Kennedy will show that a great muslim army conquered it's way north, east, and west from Arabia. How else did they find themselves in Spain in the first place, Jafar?

[stevecanuck]

It should be noted that conquering 7th century muslims were more interested in ruling the lands that they subjugated in the name of islam and booty (both kinds), than they were in the souls of the conquered. They were more than happy to let the locals keep their own religions so they could collect the jizyah (religious tax) from them. Jizyah is nothing more than protection money. The Mob has nothing on these guys.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Muslims ruled Spain peacefully for 800 years and it became a model for prosperity, equality with Muslims, Jews, Christians working together, preserving knowledge etc.. That was until the Crusades came along forcing people to convert to Christianity or die.

Muslims ruled India for 1000 years so they had plenty of opportunity to spread Islam by the sword, yet today India is 80% non Muslim.

De Lacy O'Leary (Non Muslim Historian) wrote in his book "Islam at the crossroads"



Furthermore, forced conversion and spreading Islam by the sword is in direct conflict with 2:256 of the Qur'aan.

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error

Also in a famous Hadith, the Prophet Mohamed (saw) warned that he would bear witness against any Muslim who wronged a non Muslim citizen of a Muslim country.

According to the Reader's Digest Almanac of 1986, Islam was the fastest growing religion between 1934 and 1984 growing at the rate of 235%. Christianity by only 47%.

Which wars in those 50 years were to spread Islam? :)

DENIAL. It's not just a river in Egypt.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Muslims ruled Spain peacefully for 800 years and it became a model for prosperity, equality with Muslims, Jews, Christians working together, preserving knowledge etc.. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Spain

...after the fall of the Western Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Roman_Empire) (476) the Teutonic tribe of Visigoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths) ended up ruling the whole peninsula until the Islamic conquest (during that time they pushed another Teutonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutons) tribe out—the Vandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals) – and conquered another one—the Suevi).


On April 30, 711, Islamic leader Tariq ibn-Ziyad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn-Ziyad) landed at Gibraltar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar) and by the end of the campaign most of the Iberian Peninsula (except for small areas in the north-west such as Asturias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturias) and the Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_%28historical_territory%29) territory) were brought under Islamic rule. This campaign's turning point was the battle of Guadalete, where the last Visigothic king, Roderick, was defeated and killed on the battlefield.


It is commonly held that the relative ease that the Arab armies conquered the Iberian Peninsula with was due to the centralized nature of government under the rule of the Visigoths.


...some Visigothic nobles actually aided the Islamic conquest.


The majority of the Army as well as commander Tariq himself were not Arab but Islamic...


It was only by the end of the 4th century after Tariq's conquest that a majority of the population practiced Islam...

Those parts in RED Jahil... prove you're full of shit.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Muslims ruled India for 1000 years so they had plenty of opportunity to spread Islam by the sword, yet today India is 80% non Muslim.



Because the Muslims broke off and formed Pakistan, moron.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Furthermore, forced conversion and spreading Islam by the sword is in direct conflict with 2:256 of the Qur'aan.

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error




Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

Let me guess. It's just a Hadith, not in the Qur'aan, so it isn't from Islam... right, Jahil?

[Marcus Aurelius]

According to the Reader's Digest Almanac of 1986, Islam was the fastest growing religion between 1934 and 1984 growing at the rate of 235%. Christianity by only 47%.



http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion

According to research carried out by the respected Pakistani-born American Muslim Dr. Ilyas Ba-Yunus (1932 - 2007),[13] (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion#cite_note-12)[14] (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion#cite_note-13) 75% of new Muslim converts (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Converts) in the US leave Islam within a few years.[15] (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion#cite_note-14)

[jafar00]

It's 'surprisingly' easy to find material showing that not only IS forced conversion a feature of what loyal Muslims have got up to in the past, but that they continue with it to this day. Indeed .. in this way, as in others, Islamists show themselves totally resistant to improvement over time. World standards improve. Enlightened attitudes predominate. EXCEPT for Islamists, however .. they remain locked in their savagery, fossilised .....

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/raymond-ibrahim/islam%E2%80%99s-uninterrupted-history-of-forced-conversions/



Muslims specialise in beheadings, wouldn't you agree, Jafar ?

http://michellemalkin.com/2006/08/29/islams-long-history-of-forced-conversions/



http://islaminaction08.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/bulgariaentire-villages-being-forced-to.html



Jafar, this is one case of where propaganda and clear, indisputable truth just don't mix. As lengthy as this post of mine has been, I could've made it twice as long by posting further examples showing how false your assertion TRULY IS.

It's easy to post a load of BS from your Neo Nazi/Zionist websites and pass it off as the truth however misguided you are.

You cannot use examples of a few bad apples who have strayed from the path to broad brush an entire religion. You do the same with terrorist acts that have nothing to do with any Islamic teachings, yet they are labelled with the oxymoron "Islamic Terrorism".

Even one of "your" people, Thomas Arnold says this


Thomas Arnold, a former Christian missionary in India, who cannot be accused of being pro-Islam, in his famous book ‘The Preaching of Islam’, indicates that there have been certain periods where Muslim rulers have diverted from this tolerance, but it was due to a deviation from Islamic principles, rather than conformance to them.
He concludes that the two primary reasons for the spread of Islam all over the world were merchants and the Sufis, two groups of people who went out, worked with humanity and gently invited others to their faith.

It's interesting to note that I also came to know Islam through the Sufi.

It should be noted that conquering 7th century muslims were more interested in ruling the lands that they subjugated in the name of islam and booty (both kinds), than they were in the souls of the conquered. They were more than happy to let the locals keep their own religions so they could collect the jizyah (religious tax) from them. Jizyah is nothing more than protection money. The Mob has nothing on these guys.

First you claim that Islam spread by force, and then you say that the locals were allowed to keep their own religion in order to collect taxes?

Make up your mind.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I have to comment since I have stayed out of this war of words.

It is well and good to explain to Muslims or other posters what one believes. Jafar says what he believes.

Closely held beliefs won't be changed.

Debate won't work in this case.

Evil is not to be ignored . Islam is pure evil. It teaches that man can create his own Salvation by strict obedience. It denies the divinity and Salvation offered by God's Son.

Jafar does believe his religion but that is no cause to let him convince others that it is the right way.

We are supposed to oppose evil not just ignore it.. Ignoring it is a tactic Satan promotes so it can have time to fester and grow. -Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It's easy to post a load of BS from your Neo Nazi/Zionist websites and pass it off as the truth however misguided you are.
You cannot use examples of a few bad apples who have strayed from the path to broad brush an entire religion. You do the same with terrorist acts that have nothing to do with any Islamic teachings, yet they are labelled with the oxymoron "Islamic Terrorism".

Really? Neo Nazi/Zionist websites??

That is your counter to the truth presented???

You sir, are a damn liar....

You are defeated by the actions of your fellow muslims so you declare they are not true muslims.
Then when shown the truth you call it Nazi propaganda instead of refuting it . That is the lazy easy way that convinces nobody but fools.
Just how are all these Nazi's getting your people to do all these murders and shout praise to Allah while cutting the throats of innocent women and children!??

ARE YOU REALLY NOW REDUCED DOWN TO CALLING US A BUNCH OF NAZI'S???
So soon you are reduced to fear of quoting verses from the Koran because Steve can match you and correct you!??-Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

Because the Muslims broke off and formed Pakistan, moron.

Pakistan Population (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=t4g&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=pakistan+population&sa=X&ei=O0NMUfTDH--P0QH_pIHAAg&ved=0CNUBEOgTKAE): 176,745,364 (2011)

India Population (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=t4g&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=pakistan+population&sa=X&ei=O0NMUfTDH--P0QH_pIHAAg&ved=0CNUBEOgTKAE): 1,241,491,960 (2011)

so prior to Indian Independence 10% OF THE POPULATION ruled over 90% of the population.

Sounds like the dictatorial Baathists in Iraq. Or the White Apartheid rulers in South Africa.

Both of whom ruled with the threat of Military and police reprisals to keep the Majority in line with their policies.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Drummond http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=625849#post625849)
It's 'surprisingly' easy to find material showing that not only IS forced conversion a feature of what loyal Muslims have got up to in the past, but that they continue with it to this day. Indeed .. in this way, as in others, Islamists show themselves totally resistant to improvement over time. World standards improve. Enlightened attitudes predominate. EXCEPT for Islamists, however .. they remain locked in their savagery, fossilised .....

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/raymond...d-conversions/ (http://frontpagemag.com/2011/raymond-ibrahim/islam%E2%80%99s-uninterrupted-history-of-forced-conversions/)



Muslims specialise in beheadings, wouldn't you agree, Jafar ?

http://michellemalkin.com/2006/08/29...d-conversions/ (http://michellemalkin.com/2006/08/29/islams-long-history-of-forced-conversions/)



http://islaminaction08.blogspot.co.u...forced-to.html (http://islaminaction08.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/bulgariaentire-villages-being-forced-to.html)



Jafar, this is one case of where propaganda and clear, indisputable truth just don't mix. As lengthy as this post of mine has been, I could've made it twice as long by posting further examples showing how false your assertion TRULY IS.



It's easy to post a load of BS from your Neo Nazi/Zionist websites and pass it off as the truth however misguided you are.



wow... anyone who speaks the truth about Islam is either a Neo Nazi or a Zionist? What about all those former Muslims? Are they all now Neo Nazis or Zionists?

Dumb ass.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Notice how Jahil is simply too scared to even attempt to comment on posts 84, 85, 86 and 87?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

wow... anyone who speaks the truth about Islam is either a Neo Nazi or a Zionist? What about all those former Muslims? Are they all now Neo Nazis or Zionists?

Dumb ass.

I speak the TRUTH about Islam. Which one will or rather does Jafar call me?

That's right he just ignores me because I am rude to him .... what a (cowardly) maroooooooon...:laugh:--Tyr

and--a "dumb ass" ...;)

[Marcus Aurelius]

Notice how Jahil is simply too scared to even attempt to comment on posts 84, 85, 86 and 87?

still nothing. Conclusive proof Jahil is a complete nutjob.

[Drummond]

Really? Neo Nazi/Zionist websites??

That is your counter to the truth presented???

You sir, are a damn liar....

You are defeated by the actions of your fellow muslims so you declare they are not true muslims.
Then when shown the truth you call it Nazi propaganda instead of refuting it . That is the lazy easy way that convinces nobody but fools.
Just how are all these Nazi's getting your people to do all these murders and shout praise to Allah while cutting the throats of innocent women and children!??

ARE YOU REALLY NOW REDUCED DOWN TO CALLING US A BUNCH OF NAZI'S???
So soon you are reduced to fear of quoting verses from the Koran because Steve can match you and correct you!??-Tyr:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Perfectly put, Tyr.

Both you and Marcus have posted replies which shame Jafar. No question about it. I can't better the posts I've just read and 'thanked' from you both.

That said, I have my own reply for Jafar. He's included a point of interest I'd like to cover ....

[Drummond]

It's easy to post a load of BS from your Neo Nazi/Zionist websites and pass it off as the truth however misguided you are.

Tyr and Marcus have posted replies which absolutely speak for my reaction to this as well. Fact is, Jafar, you know you have no way of denying the truth of the material I've posted. So, rather shabbily, you have set out to demonise it instead.

Is ANYONE not sharing your beliefs, and declining to buy into your assertions about Islam, fair game to be labelled a 'Nazi', Jafar ?


You cannot use examples of a few bad apples who have strayed from the path to broad brush an entire religion. You do the same with terrorist acts that have nothing to do with any Islamic teachings, yet they are labelled with the oxymoron "Islamic Terrorism".

Just how many examples will you need to see before it becomes more than just a 'few', anyway ? As for the labelling that's done to describe 'Islamic Terrorism' .. guess what ? THE TERRORISTS DOING IT CALL THEMSELVES ISLAMIC !!

They're all liars, in JafarWorld ... right ? Every terrorist in every terrorist group, no matter where in the world they come from. Be it Afghanistan, Iraq, Africa, Asia, any and all cells of it in the Western World .. 'liars, all' ! .. whilst YOU, Jafar, are the 'truthful' one ....

- 'Sure' -

Here's where it gets interesting, though ..


It's interesting to note that I also came to know Islam through the Sufi.

I agree. It is !!

'Brainwashed by Nazis' as I 'undoubtedly am,' I did the 'Nazi' thing of actually doing a bit of research. Here's what I found ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20050803084708/http://www.islam.org.au/articles/22/sufism.htm

It turns out that 'Sufism' is a form of cult. At best an offshoot of Islam, but NOT representative of MAINSTREAM Islam.

Entitled, 'SUFISM .. THE DEVIATED PATH' ..



<tbody>
Both the terms Sufi and Sufism and Sufi beliefs have no basis from the traditional Islamic sources of the Qur'an and Sunnah, a fact even admitted by themselves. Rather, Sufism is in essence a conglomerate consisting of extracts from a multitude of other religions with which Sufi's interacted.

</tbody>




<tbody>
With the demise of the Companions and their successors, the door became open for the distortion of Islamic Principles. The enemies of Islam had already burrowed deep into the ranks of Muslims and rapidly caused Fitnah through their spreading of forged hadith and subsequently created new sects such as the Khawaarij and Mu'tazilah.


Sufism gained its breeding ground during this period, whereby it gained its support from the Dynastic Rulers, who had deviated from Islam to the extent whereby magic was used as entertainment in their courts, even though magic is considered as Kufr in Islam.5 During this period, Sufism developed its Shi'a flavour, indeed the roots of contemporary Sufism have been traced back to Shi'a origins (see later).

</tbody>




<tbody>
Sufism was doomed to destruction from when it first emerged, because of its deviation from the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah. The small excess, the little innovation, led to the snowball effect, such that it emerged as a movement for well-meant increased Ibaadah and Zuhd, to Kufr and Innovation.


In truth, Islam is sufficient for us, and it is only Shaytaan who wishes to turn us away from our religion, to make us exceed the limits, and fall into his trap. The only sure way to avoid this is to grasp tightly onto what was left to us by our beloved Prophet (s.a.w), the Qur'an and Sunnah, as understood and believed and acted upon by the best people to have lived: the Salaf us Saalih, the Companions and those who followed their footsteps.

</tbody>


These are just a couple of quotes from a much larger work .. which is well worth studying. However, Jafar, this much is clear. As you're claiming to 'know Islam through the Sufi' ... YOUR WORDS, JAFAR ... then what you're REALLY claiming is that your knowledge of 'Islam' comes FROM A DISTORTION OF IT.

Have you 'royally' tripped yourself up, Jafar ? I think you have. I think you wanted anyone pondering this Sufi influence to consider that Islam was predominantly 'peaceful', that there were many Muslims out there wholly loyal to peaceful goals and thoughts. INSTEAD ... the TRUTH is that Sufism was a distorting and perverting sect of Islam ('Islamic' only in the loosest possible sense, if EVEN that ..), one sharply diverging from the Quran and the mainstream character of Islam in its teachings and attempts at influence.

No doubt, Jafar, you'll dismiss this latest material as another of 'Nazi' origin or character. However, and as the page itself shows, the article was published from THIS ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20050724023123/http://www.islam.org.au/editions/jul2003/english/index.htm

... certainly a website we would all recognise as typical of mainstream Islam. It's all there .. bog standard Islamic hatreds, propagandist in the extreme, anti-American rhetoric you could only miss if you were stricken blind or entirely missing a brain.

Steve, if you read this, I'd like your input. If Jafar wants to stick to his claim of 'knowing Islam through Sufism', do we have proof that he isn't really representing Islam AT ALL ?

If so ... Jafar, doesn't this bear out what your detractors assert ? That you are NOT representing the truth of Islam when you PURPORT to be !!

Final comment. Personally, I'm not sure I'm buying this Sufism claim. How can this be reconciled, given what Sufism is supposed to be about, WITH JAFAR'S ADMITTED SUPPORT OF ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, NAMELY, HAMAS ???

[stevecanuck]

First you claim that Islam spread by force, and then you say that the locals were allowed to keep their own religion in order to collect taxes?

Make up your mind.

That response was so weak that I'm actually embarrassed for you. You're trying to float the concept that how you govern those you've conquered somehow means you haven't conquered them.

If you say islam was not initially spread by conquest (contrary to every history book that's ever been written), please explain how the Fertile Crescent came to be ruled by muslims.

PS. Your responses are going to have to get a lot better for me to pay you any heed. You're VERY bad at this.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Tyr and Marcus have posted replies which absolutely speak for my reaction to this as well. Fact is, Jafar, you know you have no way of denying the truth of the material I've posted. So, rather shabbily, you have set out to demonise it instead.

Is ANYONE not sharing your beliefs, and declining to buy into your assertions about Islam, fair game to be labelled a 'Nazi', Jafar ?



Just how many examples will you need to see before it becomes more than just a 'few', anyway ? As for the labelling that's done to describe 'Islamic Terrorism' .. guess what ? THE TERRORISTS DOING IT CALL THEMSELVES ISLAMIC !!

They're all liars, in JafarWorld ... right ? Every terrorist in every terrorist group, no matter where in the world they come from. Be it Afghanistan, Iraq, Africa, Asia, any and all cells of it in the Western World .. 'liars, all' ! .. whilst YOU, Jafar, are the 'truthful' one ....

- 'Sure' -

Here's where it gets interesting, though ..



I agree. It is !!

'Brainwashed by Nazis' as I 'undoubtedly am,' I did the 'Nazi' thing of actually doing a bit of research. Here's what I found ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20050803084708/http://www.islam.org.au/articles/22/sufism.htm

It turns out that 'Sufism' is a form of cult. At best an offshoot of Islam, but NOT representative of MAINSTREAM Islam.

Entitled, 'SUFISM .. THE DEVIATED PATH' ..




<tbody>
Both the terms Sufi and Sufism and Sufi beliefs have no basis from the traditional Islamic sources of the Qur'an and Sunnah, a fact even admitted by themselves. Rather, Sufism is in essence a conglomerate consisting of extracts from a multitude of other religions with which Sufi's interacted.


</tbody>



<tbody>
With the demise of the Companions and their successors, the door became open for the distortion of Islamic Principles. The enemies of Islam had already burrowed deep into the ranks of Muslims and rapidly caused Fitnah through their spreading of forged hadith and subsequently created new sects such as the Khawaarij and Mu'tazilah.


Sufism gained its breeding ground during this period, whereby it gained its support from the Dynastic Rulers, who had deviated from Islam to the extent whereby magic was used as entertainment in their courts, even though magic is considered as Kufr in Islam.5 During this period, Sufism developed its Shi'a flavour, indeed the roots of contemporary Sufism have been traced back to Shi'a origins (see later).


</tbody>






<tbody>
Sufism was doomed to destruction from when it first emerged, because of its deviation from the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah. The small excess, the little innovation, led to the snowball effect, such that it emerged as a movement for well-meant increased Ibaadah and Zuhd, to Kufr and Innovation.


In truth, Islam is sufficient for us, and it is only Shaytaan who wishes to turn us away from our religion, to make us exceed the limits, and fall into his trap. The only sure way to avoid this is to grasp tightly onto what was left to us by our beloved Prophet (s.a.w), the Qur'an and Sunnah, as understood and believed and acted upon by the best people to have lived: the Salaf us Saalih, the Companions and those who followed their footsteps.

</tbody>









These are just a couple of quotes from a much larger work .. which is well worth studying. However, Jafar, this much is clear. As you're claiming to 'know Islam through the Sufi' ... YOUR WORDS, JAFAR ... then what you're REALLY claiming is that your knowledge of 'Islam' comes FROM A DISTORTION OF IT.

Have you 'royally' tripped yourself up, Jafar ? I think you have. I think you wanted anyone pondering this Sufi influence to consider that Islam was predominantly 'peaceful', that there were many Muslims out there wholly loyal to peaceful goals and thoughts. INSTEAD ... the TRUTH is that Sufism was a distorting and perverting sect of Islam ('Islamic' only in the loosest possible sense, if EVEN that ..), one sharply diverging from the Quran and the mainstream character of Islam in its teachings and attempts at influence.

No doubt, Jafar, you'll dismiss this latest material as another of 'Nazi' origin or character. However, and as the page itself shows, the article was published from THIS ...

http://web.archive.org/web/20050724023123/http://www.islam.org.au/editions/jul2003/english/index.htm

... certainly a website we would all recognise as typical of mainstream Islam. It's all there .. bog standard Islamic hatreds, propagandist in the extreme, anti-American rhetoric you could only miss if you were stricken blind or entirely missing a brain.

Steve, if you read this, I'd like your input. If Jafar wants to stick to his claim of 'knowing Islam through Sufism', do we have proof that he isn't really representing Islam AT ALL ?

If so ... Jafar, doesn't this bear out what your detractors assert ? That you are NOT representing the truth of Islam when you PURPORT to be !!

Final comment. Personally, I'm not sure I'm buying this Sufism claim. How can this be reconciled, given what Sufism is supposed to be about, WITH JAFAR'S ADMITTED SUPPORT OF ISLAMIC TERRORISTS, NAMELY, HAMAS ???

You just don't understand.
You are using Neo Nazi Zionist sources.
You're looking at a bad translation.
I know Islam, you don't.
[insert next Jahil excuse/diversion here]

[Drummond]

Contents deleted ! I don't get how my post became duplicated .. ! But anyway, please ignore ...

[Drummond]

You just don't understand.
You are using Neo Nazi Zionist sources.
You're looking at a bad translation.
I know Islam, you don't.
[insert next Jahil excuse/diversion here]

Easy ... I'll try two of them.

1. Nobody can properly translate anything Islamic unless they're devotedly Islamic themselves (.. in the 'Jafar' sense of the word)

2. 'I said it, so it's true, even if I said something different a few posts back' ..

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=625992#post625992)
You just don't understand.
You are using Neo Nazi Zionist sources.
You're looking at a bad translation.
I know Islam, you don't.
[insert next Jahil excuse/diversion here]



Easy ... I'll try two of them.

1. Nobody can properly translate anything Islamic unless they're devotedly Islamic themselves (.. in the 'Jafar' sense of the word)

2. 'I said it, so it's true, even if I said something different a few posts back' ..

Meaning, if Jahil did not personally approve of the Islamic source... it isn't really Islamic.

[Drummond]

Meaning, if Jahil did not personally approve of the Islamic source... it isn't really Islamic.

Yep ...:rolleyes:

[aboutime]

still nothing. Conclusive proof Jahil is a complete nutjob.


And that....is a complete insult to Nutjobs.

[stevecanuck]

I see Jafar posted yesterday, but still he's avoiding answering questions here. Still pending are these:


- How did the Fertile Crescent come under muslim control in the 7th century if not by military conquest?

- If god is all knowing, why did mere mortals have to change his plan and have the qur'an written in order to save the exact message?

- If god is all knowing, why did mere mortals have to make the decision on their own to record the hadiths long after mohamed's death?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I see Jafar posted yesterday, but still he's avoiding answering questions here. Still pending are these:


- How did the Fertile Crescent come under muslim control in the 7th century if not by military conquest?

- If god is all knowing, why did mere mortals have to change his plan and have the qur'an written in order to save the exact message?

- If god is all knowing, why did mere mortals have to make the decision on their own to record the hadiths long after mohamed's death?


Give ya 5 to 1 odds he ignores those questions completely. Up until Jim, myself and Marcus got on his case he got away with an awful damn lot here . Especially in way of falsely presenting Islam. Presenting a Jafar sanitized version of it to we ignorant infidels...... . TRUTH ran away Abso, another muslim member here. Nobody suggested that Abso leave but running away became a better option to him/her? than having to face off against the TRUTH. --Tyr

[stevecanuck]

It's important to know the history of the first muslims because their actions are most likely to be indicative of how islam expected it's adherents to act. That's because it was the only time in history when:

- all muslims lived together,
- no sectarian/tribal conflicts yet existed, especially the sunni/shia split,
- they all spoke the same language (and not just any language, but that of the qur'an),
- they had one undisputed leader, the man who invented ("received") the qur'an,
- they had no chance of "misinterpreting" the message of the qur'an because mohamed was their teacher.


If they weren't going to get it right at that point, it was never going to happen. And what does getting it right mean? It means consolodating power on the Arabian Peninsula first, then marching north to attack your nearest neighbors, and finally sending your army west and east from there in order to conquer as much of the known world as their military might allowed.

That was mohamed's islam, which means it was the REAL islam.

[stevecanuck]

Jafar00 has obviously figured out that his lies will be exposed, and he also realizes he can no longer skate by with plausible deniability anymore with regard to the military expansion of Islam in the 7th century.

That he simply disappeared proves he was here to lie and propagandise rather than debate honestly.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Jafar00 has obviously figured out that his lies will be exposed, and he also realizes he can no longer skate by with plausible deniability anymore with regard to the military expansion of Islam in the 7th century.

That he simply disappeared proves he was here to lie and propagandise rather than debate honestly.

he does that whenever he cannot address a question, or when a lie he told is proven to be a lie.

[aboutime]

Jafar00 has obviously figured out that his lies will be exposed, and he also realizes he can no longer skate by with plausible deniability anymore with regard to the military expansion of Islam in the 7th century.

That he simply disappeared proves he was here to lie and propagandise rather than debate honestly.


Steve. We also must remember how jafar must pray five times a day. A good excuse to pretend the Ignore feature he uses to avoid answering anyone here..really works in his favor.
I compare his tactics to Obama. Lies all the time, and is convinced...everyone must believe him, or suffer as a Racist Pig.

[stevecanuck]

Another interesting point I forgot to mention previously about the spread of islam is that it reached the east coast of Africa via muslim slave traders. Are you feeling the peace yet?

[jafar00]

The wars you speak of were defensive in nature. There was not at any time in history, forced conversion to Islam by war. This concept goes against Islam and if true, there would be no Christians, no Jews, no Churches or Synagogues left in places that are or were under Islamic rule.

[stevecanuck]

The wars you speak of were defensive in nature. There was not at any time in history, forced conversion to Islam by war. This concept goes against Islam and if true, there would be no Christians, no Jews, no Churches or Synagogues left in places that are or were under Islamic rule.

Whether wars are defensive or offensive has NOTHING to do with whether conquered people are forced to convert to Islam, yet you continue to try to imply that it does. Verse 9:29 states very clearly that conquered people may keep their religion as long as they surrender, agree to live by Islamic law, and pay the jizya. That still makes them conquered and subjugated against their will. That's what passes for peace in Islam.

It would be hard to imagine a more bare-faced lie than to say the Muslim conquests of the 7th and 8th century were defensive in nature. Why then was not a single battle against outsiders fought in Arabia? The Byzantines and Persians had been at war with each other for several decades over control of the Fertile Crescent, and both were battered and weakened when the opportunistic Arab Muslims of Arabia rode north and attacked them in the name of Islam. Neither the Byzantines nor the Persians ever set so much as one foot on Muslim territory prior to the attacks. You are a liar plain and simple. That you seem to think you can rewrite history and get away with it is truly mind blowing.

If you're going to continue plying this fantasy, then tell us all about the Byzantine and Persian excursions into the Arabian Peninsula, complete with dates and references, liar.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The wars you speak of were defensive in nature.
Flat out fucking lie, as already proven.

There was not at any time in history, forced conversion to Islam by war.
Another flat out fucking lie, as already proven.

This concept goes against
Yet another flat out fucking lie.

and if true, there would be no Christians, no Jews, no Churches or Synagogues left in places that are or were under Islamic rule.

my comments in RED above

[stevecanuck]

Whether wars are defensive or offensive has NOTHING to do with whether conquered people are forced to convert to Islam, yet you continue to try to imply that it does. Verse 9:29 states very clearly that conquered people may keep their religion as long as they surrender, agree to live by Islamic law, and pay the jizya. That still makes them conquered and subjugated against their will. That's what passes for peace in Islam.

It would be hard to imagine a more bare-faced lie than to say the Muslim conquests of the 7th and 8th century were defensive in nature. Why then was not a single battle against outsiders fought in Arabia? The Byzantines and Persians had been at war with each other for several decades over control of the Fertile Crescent, and both were battered and weakened when the opportunistic Arab Muslims of Arabia rode north and attacked them in the name of Islam. Neither the Byzantines nor the Persians ever set so much as one foot on Muslim territory prior to the attacks. You are a liar plain and simple. That you seem to think you can rewrite history and get away with it is truly mind blowing.

If you're going to continue plying this fantasy, then tell us all about the Byzantine and Persian excursions into the Arabian Peninsula, complete with dates and references, liar.

I'll take Jafar's silence for submission, but I'm not going to let him rest until he admits it.

[aboutime]

I'll take Jafar's silence for submission, but I'm not going to let him rest until he admits it.


Steve. Most of us know jafar's tactics very well, and consequently. There will never be any kind of admission. The silence is nothing more than jafar's PRETEND game of IGNORING what anyone says..with whom he may disagree, or from others who have exposed him as a Liar.