Ranger tabs

[Syrenn]

Ranger tabs were a topic of discussion.... and i have a few questions.


What are ranger tabs?
How does one get them?
What does it mean to have one?
Are these things sought after? If so.... why?

[Robert A Whit]

Ranger tabs were a topic of discussion.... and i have a few questions.


What are ranger tabs?
How does one get them?
What does it mean to have one?
Are these things sought after? If so.... why?

Good questions.

OK, I looked it up.

I saw those on the uniforms of Rangers when I served but nobody gave them a name.

Rangers are ordered to have the Ranger Tab sewn onto their shoulder of their uniforms. It is a curved patch with the word Ranger on it. I did not see many but I believe I saw most of those at the Army Airborne jump school located at Ft. Benning, GA. Rangers spent 61 days being trained and won the patch when they passed all tests.

Many Rangers are also Airborne.

4651

[Syrenn]

Good questions.

OK, I looked it up.

I saw those on the uniforms of Rangers when I served but nobody gave them a name.

Rangers are ordered to have the Ranger Tab sewn onto their shoulder of their uniforms. It is a curved patch with the word Ranger on it. I did not see many but I believe I saw most of those at the Army Airborne jump school located at Ft. Benning, GA. Rangers spent 61 days being trained and won the patch when they passed all tests.

Many Rangers are also Airborne.

4651

good find! Im just lazy and was hoping the militay here would have the answers.




Are these tabs something that army military covet having?
Is this some special training that makes you better then the regular military?
Must you always wear the tab or is it more of something to be proud of wearing?
What do rangers do?
Are there lots of them or is this something not to many get to have?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Ranger tabs were a topic of discussion.... and i have a few questions.


What are ranger tabs?
How does one get them?
What does it mean to have one?
Are these things sought after? If so.... why?


http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arbadges/blranger.htm

AWARD ELIGIBILITY:

a. The Commandant of the U.S. Army Infantry School may award the Ranger Tab to any person who successfully completed a Ranger Course conducted by that school.
b. The Commander, U.S. Total Army Personnel Command (PERSCOM) and the Commander, U.S. Total Army Reserve Personnel Center (AR-PERSCOM) may award the Ranger Tab to any person who was awarded the Combat Infantryman Badge while serving during World War II as a member of a Ranger Battalion (1st Bn – 6th Bn inclusive) or in the 5307th Composite Unit, Provisional (Merrill’s Maurauders);to any person who was awarded the Combat Infantryman Badge while serving during the Korean Conflict with the 8th Army Ranger Company (11 October 1950 to 27 March 1951); or to any person who successfully completed a Ranger Course conducted by the Ranger Training Command at Fort Benning, GA.
DATE APPROVED: The cloth tab was approved by HQDA on 6 November 1950. Authorization to wear the tab was included in Change 2, AR 600-70, dated 23 January 1953. On 25 November 1984, the Army Chief of Staff approved a metal replica of the embroidered tab for wear on the dress mess uniforms.
SUBDUED TAB: The subdued tab is embroidered with olive drab background and border with black letters. The tab is not authorized in subdued metal.
MINITURE BADGES: The metal badge authorized for wear on the Army blue or white uniform and green shirt is 1 5/32 inches wide with a black enameled background and gold letters and border. The dress miniature for wear on the mess/dress uniforms is 13/16 inch wide.

<tbody>

http://0.tqn.com/d/usmilitary/1/0/c/5/ranger.gif




Embroidered Tab




http://0.tqn.com/d/usmilitary/1/0/b/5/ranger2.gif




Metal Badge


</tbody>


A mark of excellence. Signifying excellence, dedication and superior abilities. Must be earned by discipline, ability and spirit. Some stolen valor scum claim to be an Army Ranger, a Navy Seal or A Green Beret when they have never earned the right. See the Stolen Valor thread here for examples of such deeds.--Tyr

[CSM]

You guys got it. Ranger tabs are earned upon completion of a VERY tough training course. They are worn on the uniform like every other tab/award/medal with the general rule of thumb being "if you earned it you wear it". There are actually quite a few Ranger-qualified soldiers but not all those qualified are in Ranger units; the same is true of jump qualified soldiers as not all those jump qualified are in airborne units.

Rangers are quasi special operations forces. They perform a lot of different missions and are pretty much a cross between scout, engineer, and storm trooper.

[darin]

There are actually quite a few Ranger-qualified soldiers but not all those qualified are in Ranger units; the same is true of jump qualified soldiers as not all those jump qualified are in airborne units.


...and not every Soldier assigned to a Ranger Battalion is Ranger-qualified.

Seeing a ranger 'scroll' on a shoulder carries less 'awe' than a Ranger Tab.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

...and not every Soldier assigned to a Ranger Battalion is Ranger-qualified.

Seeing a ranger 'scroll' on a shoulder carries less 'awe' than a Ranger Tab.

Here is a link that may help the OP.


http://www.armyranger.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3642

9. Can the Ranger Tab be worn if you are assigned to a unit other than the 75th Ranger Regiment?

Once awarded, the tab can be worn on Army uniforms in accordance with AR 670-1.ave the Regiment

10. Can anyone else besides Rangers earn the Tab?

Yes, a select few of highly motivated squared away soldiers from other Military Branches as well as other divisions of the US Army are allowed to attend Ranger School. Even some foreign Military soldiers are allowed a chance to come through the Ranger School.

11. Do I get a choice of what Battalion I want to join?

Generally no, you may be asked for preference but you will be put into the first available slot in one of the 3 Ranger Battalions.

12. Where are the Battalions located?

There are 3 battalions and their locations are as follows:

• 1st Battalion, Hunter Army Airfield, GA
• 2nd Battalion, Ft. Lewis, WA
• 3rd Battalion, Ft. Benning, GA

13. Can I have a family while in the Ranger Regiment?

Yes, but it will not be easy. Just like everything else in life you will need to work on it, and your family will need to be supportive and understand that you may be gone 8 months out of the year.


References and Thanks

I would like to thank Ranger Peter Neves again for this website and the community it has fostered. I would like to thank all the Rangers here at ArmyRanger.com (http://armyranger.com/) for their service and their wisdom. I would like to especially thank the following Rangers, Ranger Bell, Ranger Saltbitch, Ranger BadMuther, Ranger Tool175, Ranger Spartan, Ranger Steadfast, Ranger Slowpoke, Ranger Horned Toad, Ranger Creeping Death, and Ranger Disinfertension. I would also like to thank Leatherneck for his contribution to the community, although not a Ranger, Leatherneck has given much to this country and to this community just like all of the Rangers.

I would like to Reference the following Websites as all of them were useful in my search for answers:
http://www.armyranger.com (http://www.armyranger.com/)
http://www.airborneranger.com (http://www.airborneranger.com/)
http://www.military.com (http://www.military.com/)
http://www.goarmy.com (http://www.goarmy.com/)
http://www.benning.army.mil/rtb

I would also like to thank viperphi of the AirborneRanger.com (http://airborneranger.com/) website as I found his FAQ a good starting place to begin mine.

Rangers Lead The Way

-DLP
Always remember: BROS BEFORE HOES.

[darin]

^^ Small edit. Fort Lewis no longer exists. 'Joint Base Lewis-McChord' :D

[Syrenn]

You guys got it. Ranger tabs are earned upon completion of a VERY tough training course. They are worn on the uniform like every other tab/award/medal with the general rule of thumb being "if you earned it you wear it". There are actually quite a few Ranger-qualified soldiers but not all those qualified are in Ranger units; the same is true of jump qualified soldiers as not all those jump qualified are in airborne units.

Rangers are quasi special operations forces. They perform a lot of different missions and are pretty much a cross between scout, engineer, and storm trooper.


ok... so the ranger "tab" is just the patch/medal. Alright, im clear on that.

So what i am getting is having finished the training, having the tabs to wear....

would make you better then the average army guy.
is only army "army"
and not something easy to obtain.



question..... how do get the training? Do you apply or is your name put in for it?

[Syrenn]

...and not every Soldier assigned to a Ranger Battalion is Ranger-qualified.

Seeing a ranger 'scroll' on a shoulder carries less 'awe' than a Ranger Tab.



gads... something else

what is a "scroll" and why is it different then a ranger tab?

and... why does 'awe' go along with this ranger tab?

[Syrenn]

Here is a link that may help the OP.


http://www.armyranger.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3642

9. Can the Ranger Tab be worn if you are assigned to a unit other than the 75th Ranger Regiment?

Once awarded, the tab can be worn on Army uniforms in accordance with AR 670-1.ave the Regiment

10. Can anyone else besides Rangers earn the Tab?

Yes, a select few of highly motivated squared away soldiers from other Military Branches as well as other divisions of the US Army are allowed to attend Ranger School. Even some foreign Military soldiers are allowed a chance to come through the Ranger School.

11. Do I get a choice of what Battalion I want to join?

Generally no, you may be asked for preference but you will be put into the first available slot in one of the 3 Ranger Battalions.

12. Where are the Battalions located?

There are 3 battalions and their locations are as follows:

• 1st Battalion, Hunter Army Airfield, GA
• 2nd Battalion, Ft. Lewis, WA
• 3rd Battalion, Ft. Benning, GA

13. Can I have a family while in the Ranger Regiment?

Yes, but it will not be easy. Just like everything else in life you will need to work on it, and your family will need to be supportive and understand that you may be gone 8 months out of the year.


References and Thanks

I would like to thank Ranger Peter Neves again for this website and the community it has fostered. I would like to thank all the Rangers here at ArmyRanger.com (http://armyranger.com/) for their service and their wisdom. I would like to especially thank the following Rangers, Ranger Bell, Ranger Saltbitch, Ranger BadMuther, Ranger Tool175, Ranger Spartan, Ranger Steadfast, Ranger Slowpoke, Ranger Horned Toad, Ranger Creeping Death, and Ranger Disinfertension. I would also like to thank Leatherneck for his contribution to the community, although not a Ranger, Leatherneck has given much to this country and to this community just like all of the Rangers.

I would like to Reference the following Websites as all of them were useful in my search for answers:
http://www.armyranger.com (http://www.armyranger.com/)
http://www.airborneranger.com (http://www.airborneranger.com/)
http://www.military.com (http://www.military.com/)
http://www.goarmy.com (http://www.goarmy.com/)
http://www.benning.army.mil/rtb

I would also like to thank viperphi of the AirborneRanger.com (http://airborneranger.com/) website as I found his FAQ a good starting place to begin mine.

Rangers Lead The Way

-DLP
Always remember: BROS BEFORE HOES.



aaahh... more questions!


so this ranger thing is for full time army from the sound of it..... yes? Which is why they talk about
#13 the family thing.


and it sounds like its not something just anyone can sign up for..... but they do let other people from other branches do the training. How do just regular army guys get into this ranger school?


and... are rangers only in these 3 battalions?


^^ Small edit. Fort Lewis no longer exists. 'Joint Base Lewis-McChord' :D


so two in GA and one in WA

[darin]

aaahh... more questions!


so this ranger thing is for full time army from the sound of it..... yes? Which is why they talk about
#13 the family thing.


and it sounds like its not something just anyone can sign up for..... but they do let other people from other branches do the training. How do just regular army guys get into this ranger school?





yes - no 'Reserve' or 'National Guard' Ranger units - just the three listed.

The point of the family portion - Men serving as Rangers - and all Soldiers supporting them are gone all the time. By "all" I REALLY mean 'most'. They are away training, or deployed in Combat. More so than regular Army units; perhaps less-so than Special Forces.

Most Ranger Tab Soldiers aren't in Ranger units; while some there at one time, it's not universal. Going through the school and earning the tab is remarkable.

[Syrenn]

yes - no 'Reserve' or 'National Guard' Ranger units - just the three listed.

The point of the family portion - Men serving as Rangers - and all Soldiers supporting them are gone all the time. By "all" I REALLY mean 'most'. They are away training, or deployed in Combat. More so than regular Army units; perhaps less-so than Special Forces.

Most Ranger Tab Soldiers aren't in Ranger units; while some there at one time, it's not universal. Going through the school and earning the tab is remarkable.


ok.... so being a ranger and ranger tabs is something special to have. I get what special forces do... what do rangers do?

And what was the scroll thing you had mentioned earlier? Is that like a jr ranger?

[Robert A Whit]

...and not every Soldier assigned to a Ranger Battalion is Ranger-qualified.

Seeing a ranger 'scroll' on a shoulder carries less 'awe' than a Ranger Tab.

Why would that be? Less awe I speak of. While i was in the Army long ago and saw Rangers not in Ranger units, might that be because of some skill they had that some regular army unit might be in need of? I never knew when I saw a Ranger out of his unit what he was doing in a non ranger unit.

One can be special forces and also be a ranger. I am pretty sure that in my day, all green berets were airborne qualified and had jumped.

These days a lot no doubt has changed. I must have seen special forces and rangers when I trained at the presidio at Monterey CA where various languages were being taught to those who needed said training. If any of you guys who were in the Army did not get to that post,you missed out on some very good food.

[darin]

Why would that be? Less awe I speak of.

...because one can wear the Ranger Scroll (the unit patch) without having been through Ranger School. Thus, the TAB is of higher prestige.


ok.... so being a ranger and ranger tabs is something special to have. I get what special forces do... what do rangers do?

And what was the scroll thing you had mentioned earlier? Is that like a jr ranger?

Left shoulder of every Soldier is the Patch of the unit they belong to.

Ranger Battalions use a 'scroll' shape, or ribbon-shaped patch. Wearing that alone means the person is assigned but not a Ranger School graduate.

Rangers? What do they do? The "regular" Army kicks ass when a Sword is needed. Rangers - kick ass when a scaple is needed. SF kick ass when Gene-therapy is needed.

[Syrenn]

...because one can wear the Ranger Scroll (the unit patch) without having been through Ranger School. Thus, the TAB is of higher prestige.


ok... so a scroll only means you are in the unit but not a ranger with a tab. gotcha.


Left shoulder of every Soldier is the Patch of the unit they belong to.

Ranger Battalions use a 'scroll' shape, or ribbon-shaped patch. Wearing that alone means the person is assigned but not a Ranger School graduate.

Rangers? What do they do? The "regular" Army kicks ass when a Sword is needed. Rangers - kick ass when a scaple is needed. SF kick ass when Gene-therapy is needed.

:lmao: ...... love that visual!!!


so what i am getting is this is a tough course to pass and hard earned tabs. Is the wash out rate for rangers high.... or if you are in ranger training you are more or less expected to pass?

[darin]

ok... so a scroll only means you are in the unit but not a ranger with a tab. gotcha.






I would never use 'only' or 'just' in ANY sentence with the word. Ranger. ;) Wearing the scroll is honorable. Wearing the tab is more so.



so what i am getting is this is a tough course to pass and hard earned tabs. Is the wash out rate for rangers high.... or if you are in ranger training you are more or less expected to pass?

You don't pass the course to earn the Tab. You pass the course to 'Be a Ranger'. The TAB is something you wear on your shoulder (if 'you' are a male soldier) for the rest of your career. It's a sign to all you are a Ranger. Forever. What's expected? I suppose nothing more than before the course, because going through the course does not bestow upon the graduate anything - it mearly polishes the turd within; into something 'more'. :)

[Robert A Whit]

ok.... so being a ranger and ranger tabs is something special to have. I get what special forces do... what do rangers do?

And what was the scroll thing you had mentioned earlier? Is that like a jr ranger?

I was never a Ranger nor special forces and did not do more at jump school, where I got to Ft. Benning with the intention to be trained as Airborne, than almost complete the Physical test. I missed by 1 Airborne pull up. I hear that today the pull up I had to do is no longer required. It was one sumbytch to do any Airborne pull ups when I was in. Anyway, i spotted on the bulletin board close to the mess hall a way to go to Europe. I was a draftee to begin with. I had nothing to prove. I only volunteered for Airborne to begin with presuming I was going to complete OCS and make more money than staying a draftee.

As I understand this, Rangers are qualified by training to handle select missions that require them to be locomotive tough and with skills to handle said more unique missions. If a person is not rock hard and highly motivated and has the body of Superman sort of to speak, he may not be able to complete training since it is extremely hard.

This is my understanding and I easily can be partly correct. I believe one has to step up and volunteer.

When I was at Ft. Ord, CA training, the Army did have an orientation to Airborne and also Officere candicate school. (OCS) I only planned to serve as an officer because back then, for little more time than spent as a draftee, I could collect about $7,000 more in pay. For me it was nothing more than the money. I went to Airborne orientation and sighned up. I did not know that to go to OCS, I had to have signed up at Ft. Ord until it was too late. I was too late to sign up for OCS the day I went to sign up. I was pretty pissed that I did not know there was a drop dead point where you could not sign up. I told the Major I had orders to go to Ft. Benning anyway so why not modify said orders so I could do both, Airborne and OCS. Anyway, it did not pan out.

Airborne in my view was a tad bit harder than what I had gone through and that for me was only the pull up parts. You had to pull up chest high and if you think that is easy, try it sometime. Jump way up to a bar and pull up chest high. You will learn something about what I had to do that day. But the rest of the physical test for me was a snap. Nothing was hard. I thought the pull ups would be to the chin and was ready for that.

The Special forces people have multiple skills and i believe speak various languages. I was in when Airborne was training some Vietnamese to jump. I can't honestly recall many of them there though. We had some Seals too. I saw some guys who were in the Air Force and I believe attended the Air Force Academy. Not sure why they took that training. I knew a Navy Seal and that dude was in top condition. I asked him why he was at Army Airborne and he said his mission was to recover the returning Astronauts. Back then, the returning capsule landed in the Ocean.

All i can say is if one wants to be a Ranger, know why they do. They must be really committed to finish the training.

Some person who actually finished training for Airborne, rangers or special forces knows much more than i do about this topic. It is my opinion that if one did not go to Jump school, one may not know a lot about it. I remember the parachute packing shed because I worked there one day. I did not pack the parachutes but they needed me to do something else. I also recall the 34 foot jumping platform that was used to get the men to learn to properly land. There was also the huge towers that the guys were pulled up to the top and then released. This got them used to coming down on parachutes. By the time they jumped from the airplane, they had done it all and the airplane was only a higher platform. I recall some of the guys breaking legs when they came to the ground. One guy I knew at the time who came with me from Ft. Ord said when he landed, his leg hit something. Can't be sure if it was a small stump or what he hit. Maybe a rock. But the way he landed, he broke his leg or ankle or foot.

You might check on the Army sites to see just what you can learn about Rangers and training. But one should not try that unless they are super fit.

[darin]

Jump School: "Run, Run, Run, Puke, Run, Climb, Fly, Stand-up, Hook-up, Shuffle to the Door, Shit oneself, Hit, Roll, Gather, Run, Run, Run" Then repeat

:D

[Robert A Whit]

Jump School: "Run, Run, Run, Puke, Run, Climb, Fly, Stand-up, Hook-up, Shuffle to the Door, Shit oneself, Hit, Roll, Gather, Run, Run, Run" Then repeat

:D

When I was at Jump school (did not jump) I called the Sgts that ran the troops, rabbits.

Those Sgts could run backwards very fast. They would run backwards at times while having the men chant something. Ft. Ord sure got us ready for running.

In basic, we had no drill sgt. as such. We had the First Sgt though. I don't recall him ever going out on any marches or runs.

AIT we had both, the First Sgt and I think the guy who was Drill Sgt. was an E-7 or E-8 but he was not the First. Sgt.

The First Sgt had a voice that carried like he was a born loud speaker of some kind. That mans voice was easy to hear for every one of us. Try talking to 300 men on a windy day to see what i mean.

The Drill Sgt was a lot taller man. When he walked in at ease marching, we ran. We had several tall kids training and one of they was in for 6 months training only then he got assigned to an Army reserve unit since he played football for the Dallas Cowboys. Being a pro football player did not keep you out of the draft so rather than get drafted, they signed up to be trained then off to reserves so they could still play pro football.

The Drill Sgt loved to have us all running while with his super long legs he would really march fast. And there was a lot of sand all over so we had to endure that and it got our legs pretty tough. Ft. Benning as I recall was clay. And humid as hell when i was there and they have bugs like dogs. LOL Those cockroaches have to be seen to be believed.

Anyway, back to the drill Sgt. The football player was 6-4 and a fast runner. He tried to walk the way the Drill Sgt did. Even he had to sort of jog at times to keep up.

That drill Sgt may have been able to win walking contests. Oh, he took care of the close order drill but he also took us to the ranges where we fired various weapons.

A funny thing happened one evening in the AIR orderly room. We got weekend passes. And had to turn them back in upon getting back to the Orderly room. I walked in and the First Sgt with the booming voice and all of 5.7 tall I suppose was talking to some kid that said he lost his pass.

The First Sgt in that voice of his acts as if he is really sympathetic.

This is him.

So, where do you suppose the pass is?

Kid. I don't know.

Sgt. Can you think of where it might be?

Kid, no Sgt. i just don't know.

All of a sudden in a super loud voice that rocked the office, said Sgt booms out...

YOU ARE TELLING ME YOU LOST THAT PASS?

Well, that sure as hell got me out of that office and laughing my ass off.

[darin]

When I was at Jump school (did not jump) I called the Sgts that ran the troops, rabbits.
(snip).


Did you read my stories (published here on the board) about Basic and AIT - you might like them. :)

[Robert A Whit]

Did you read my stories (published here on the board) about Basic and AIT - you might like them. :)

No. I shall try the search feature and see what turns up.

I have one though.

This was at AIT. I got orders to take a group of guys up to the top of a hill and to wait till night to be attacked.

I took the guys up to the top and though all we were told to do was wait, I told the men we would wait, but we would also establish a perimeter and set up some warning signals. The hill had some trash and I can't recall the specifics, we found enough to put noisemakers down the trail.

I had the men collect up anthing they could find and go down any trails since there were several and block the trails.

Then I directed them when we encountered guys later coming up the hill, to jump them and capture them.

Where we would put them in a holding area that was up there.

We did this and it worked. We grabbed the Sgt who came up with the guys.

Boy was he pissed. We nabbed him and his guys. All he did on the way back down was gripe to me that I was not supposed to capture him and his guys.

To me, it was my duty to protect the hill and keep my men safe.

Later on in Germany, I was at personnel one day and I wanted to see my personnel file. I was the Company Clerk at HQ/HQ company so i was allowed access. I was stunned to learn that after that event, the company commander at AIT cut orders promoting me. But I did not have enough time in grade to get that promotion so he had cut orders taking back the promotion. Apparently the CO had been impressed.

[Abbey Marie]

ok.... so being a ranger and ranger tabs is something special to have. I get what special forces do... what do rangers do?

And what was the scroll thing you had mentioned earlier? Is that like a jr ranger?

I worked with a Viet Nam era Ranger once. He would never tell me what he did. Which made him quite fascinating. Especially since he was on the small side, but intense. I used to imagine him in the jungles of Cambodia carrying out missions that "never happened".

[Syrenn]

I would never use 'only' or 'just' in ANY sentence with the word. Ranger. ;) Wearing the scroll is honorable. Wearing the tab is more so.




You don't pass the course to earn the Tab. You pass the course to 'Be a Ranger'. The TAB is something you wear on your shoulder (if 'you' are a male soldier) for the rest of your career. It's a sign to all you are a Ranger. Forever. What's expected? I suppose nothing more than before the course, because going through the course does not bestow upon the graduate anything - it mearly polishes the turd within; into something 'more'. :)


no i am so confused again.....

ok.... the only people in the course are people who want to be rangers? And being a ranger army guy is being part of the army elite and special.

Is this something with a lot of people who start out and at the end are only a few left? Ive taken classes and the wash out rate was 90% ..or is this something if you are accepted into the course you are expected to finish?




lol.... polishing turds. That's pretty funny!


I was never a Ranger nor special forces and did not do more at jump school, where I got to Ft. Benning with the intention to be trained as Airborne, than almost complete the Physical test. I missed by 1 Airborne pull .

You might check on the Army sites to see just what you can learn about Rangers and training. But one should not try that unless they are super fit.


thanks!

ok... that gave me a feel for what i was asking about of what "is a ranger".



yes, i am a dope about all of this, so thank you for explaining it to me!!!


I worked with a Viet Nam era Ranger once. He would never tell me what he did. Which made him quite fascinating. Especially since he was on the small side, but intense. I used to imagine him in the jungles of Cambodia carrying out missions that "never happened".

my older brother(army) and father(navy)..... never said one word about their service.

The niece (navy) currently in Iraq..... cant talk about what she is doing. We joke that we will send her specialty pliers if she would like them. :laugh:

[aboutime]

my older brother(army) and father(navy)..... never said one word about their service.

The niece (navy) currently in Iraq..... cant talk about what she is doing. We joke that we will send her specialty pliers if she would like them. :laugh:

Syrenn. There are good reasons they never said anything about their service. And, obviously. You know why, or they have told you why.

I served in the Navy during Vietnam, and ended my service in 1995. There are countless reasons I never shared many of my experiences with friends, and family. Much like your Brother, and Father.

Things we did, saw, learned, and worked on were generally not something anyone would want to talk about, or share. No matter what jobs we did, where, or when.
If you ask your brother and dad. Ten to One...they only want to remember, and talk about what we called "The good times. Or Happy times". Since there were so few of them. They were easier to remember than all the other BS, Crap, Military Shit, and Buddy-f'in...that takes place during wars, and in places REAL HUMAN BEINGS would never understand, or wish to see.

Most of the horrors I recall, took place on ships at sea. Horrors like major fires, and explosions on the Enterprise, and earlier, on the USS Forestall during Vietnam service where men died without seeing the enemy.

Use Google after asking questions of your dad, and brother. If they say anything.

As for Army Rangers. They were, and are the ELITE members of the Army. Much like the Navy's Seal's.
I salute all of them.

[Syrenn]

Syrenn. There are good reasons they never said anything about their service. And, obviously. You know why, or they have told you why.

I served in the Navy during Vietnam, and ended my service in 1995. There are countless reasons I never shared many of my experiences with friends, and family. Much like your Brother, and Father.

Things we did, saw, learned, and worked on were generally not something anyone would want to talk about, or share. No matter what jobs we did, where, or when.
If you ask your brother and dad. Ten to One...they only want to remember, and talk about what we called "The good times. Or Happy times". Since there were so few of them. They were easier to remember than all the other BS, Crap, Military Shit, and Buddy-f'in...that takes place during wars, and in places REAL HUMAN BEINGS would never understand, or wish to see.

Most of the horrors I recall, took place on ships at sea. Horrors like major fires, and explosions on the Enterprise, and earlier, on the USS Forestall during Vietnam service where men died without seeing the enemy.

Use Google after asking questions of your dad, and brother. If they say anything.

As for Army Rangers. They were, and are the ELITE members of the Army. Much like the Navy's Seal's.
I salute all of them.


I know.... if the person does not mention something like their service, you don't ask. I was surprised when my father died seeing his navy photo.... he had a chest full of medals and an arm with stripes. What they all were and what they meant, i have no idea. They let him be burred in to officers circle at the Presidio....which had been closed for years. He was WWII Pacific theater and Korea.

My brother was vietnam. The only thing he ever said was... never trust children.

neigher they or my uncles ever talked about it....not even with each other that i know of when they were together. (the uncles were WWII in Europe)

[aboutime]

I know.... if the person does not mention something like their service, you don't ask. I was surprised when my father died seeing his navy photo.... he had a chest full of medals and an arm with stripes. What they all were and what they meant, i have no idea. They let him be burred in to officers circle at the Presidio....which had been closed for years. He was WWII Pacific theater and Korea.

My brother was vietnam. The only thing he ever said was... never trust children.

neigher they or my uncles ever talked about it....not even with each other that i know of when they were together. (the uncles were WWII in Europe)


Syrenn. You can find out, and learn all about your Dad, and Brother...if you like. There are people who will help you if you provide the names, and branch of service. "Military.com" is a good place to start. The Veterans Administration can also help you get answers. Both are Online.
Good luck.

[Syrenn]

Syrenn. You can find out, and learn all about your Dad, and Brother...if you like. There are people who will help you if you provide the names, and branch of service. "Military.com" is a good place to start. The Veterans Administration can also help you get answers. Both are Online.
Good luck.


I am not very fond of my father....so i am not curious. But thank you for the information :salute:

[logroller]

I had a friend that actually left a respectable commission with a 3/5 marine scout sniper platoon to go through airborne training in anticipation of ranger school, broke his ankle and then, instead went special forces; he NEVER talks about what he actually does in special forces, nor do i ask. I always assumed its need to know kinda stuff. We talk conventional tactics all the time, but never special forces. All I know is he had the heart and soul of a warrior before he ever joined the military, truly, he was born to kill and destroy stuff; so I thought the training just added to his skill set and gave him more opportunities. I asked why leave the marines instead of becoming seal? he said, "I'll always be a marine; but with army special forces, I get more satisfying missions." I said, "don't 'rangers lead the way', wouldn't that have been satisfying?" He said, "I'm satisfied when they don't have to."

[Syrenn]

I had a friend that actually left a respectable commission with a 3/5 marine scout sniper platoon to go through airborne training in anticipation of ranger school, broke his ankle and then, instead went special forces; he NEVER talks about what he actually does in special forces, nor do i ask. I always assumed its need to know kinda stuff. We talk conventional tactics all the time, but never special forces. All I know is he had the heart and soul of a warrior before he ever joined the military, truly, he was born to kill and destroy stuff; so I thought the training just added to his skill set and gave him more opportunities. I asked why leave the marines instead of becoming seal? he said, "I'll always be a marine; but with army special forces, I get more satisfying missions." I said, "don't 'rangers lead the way', wouldn't that have been satisfying?" He said, "I'm satisfied when they don't have to."

there is something new ive just learned.... thanks!!!

i did not know people switched branches.

[Robert A Whit]

there is something new ive just learned.... thanks!!!

i did not know people switched branches.

A guy with the last name Wortman, was with me in basic training. But he had already been in the US Army before and had fought in combat in Korea. He came from TX and said he had a hard time finding work where he lived, so after he had been out about 10 years, he decided to return to the Army and stay till he retired. I was still a PFC and the Army gave him the rank of SGT E-5. I am surprised he was not picked to be a Platoon sgt with the non paid rank of SGT. I was am E-1 with the stripes of an E-5.

Wortman told me a lot about his combat missions in Korea. i hope he managed to stay and retire with a good rank. He had not changed branches and I lost track of him at Ft. Ord but the last time I saw him he had his brand new SGT E5 on.

A guy from Canada trained with us too. He had served in the Armed forces there.
He had joined our Marines but served there for a few years and got out. He too was out too long so the Army made him do basic again. I asked him if the Marine training was harder or not. He said that the Marines do a lot of marching but we in the Army did a lot of running. He said the Marines made them do a lot of close order drills on the parade grounds but we spent our time marching all over the hills and running too.

I got the idea our training was actually harder. I suspect that this guy also got more rank since he had prior service. I lost track of him too soon so can't be sure.

I read that piece by DMP and it was really good.He trained after I did and he said and had photos showing they did things we did not do. He had to go through mud in a ditch but I was in mud under machine gun fire but it was not hard at all.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

A guy with the last name Wortman, was with me in basic training. But he had already been in the US Army before and had fought in combat in Korea. He came from TX and said he had a hard time finding work where he lived, so after he had been out about 10 years, he decided to return to the Army and stay till he retired. I was still a PFC and the Army gave him the rank of SGT E-5. I am surprised he was not picked to be a Platoon sgt with the non paid rank of SGT. I was am E-1 with the stripes of an E-5.

Wortman told me a lot about his combat missions in Korea. i hope he managed to stay and retire with a good rank. He had not changed branches and I lost track of him at Ft. Ord but the last time I saw him he had his brand new SGT E5 on.

A guy from Canada trained with us too. He had served in the Armed forces there.
He had joined our Marines but served there for a few years and got out. He too was out too long so the Army made him do basic again. I asked him if the Marine training was harder or not. He said that the Marines do a lot of marching but we in the Army did a lot of running. He said the Marines made them do a lot of close order drills on the parade grounds but we spent our time marching all over the hills and running too.

I got the idea our training was actually harder. I suspect that this guy also got more rank since he had prior service. I lost track of him too soon so can't be sure.

I read that piece by DMP and it was really good.He trained after I did and he said and had photos showing they did things we did not do. He had to go through mud in a ditch but I was in mud under machine gun fire but it was not hard at all.

Back in the 70's I had a drinking buddy named "Wart man", a nick because he had a few unusual warts on his neck. . Guy could guzzle beer like a thirsty camel after two weeks in the hot desert! Dude used to get drunk and offer to show the ladies "his big worm". Man did we get a kick out of that when one of them said ,ok show me. He would unbutton his shirt and on his stomach was a big tat' of a big red worm holding a tequila bottle!! Then when the gal said , damn thought you were going to show me the real deal he would say, "no baby I'm afraid that huge snake would scare you , I only show that equipment in private.'.Then he'd give 'em a wink and laugh like hell.
The very few times that the woman said, ok lets go see it he would look at me and say, works like a charm buddy as he escorted the woman towards the exit door . :laugh2:
Was a dozen years later that my other good friend let me in on the gag. Those few times were set ups he had arranged for my benefit. The women were friends of his that I did not know or somebody he paid twenty bucks to go along with it to trick me. Guy was a real hoot....

Dude moved to Montana to work on a ranch last I heard in the early 90's. I hope some cowboy didn't kill him.-;)Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=623187#post623187)

A guy with the last name Wortman, was with me in basic training. But he had already been in the US Army before and had fought in combat in Korea. He came from TX and said he had a hard time finding work where he lived, so after he had been out about 10 years, he decided to return to the Army and stay till he retired. I was still an E-1 and the Army gave him the rank of SGT E-5. I am surprised he was not picked to be a Platoon sgt with the non paid rank of SGT. I was am E-1 with the stripes of an E-5.

Wortman told me a lot about his combat missions in Korea. i hope he managed to stay and retire with a good rank. He had not changed branches and I lost track of him at Ft. Ord but the last time I saw him he had his brand new SGT E5 on.

A guy from Canada trained with us too. He had served in the Armed forces there.
He had joined our Marines but served there for a few years and got out. He too was out too long so the Army made him do basic again. I asked him if the Marine training was harder or not. He said that the Marines do a lot of marching but we in the Army did a lot of running. He said the Marines made them do a lot of close order drills on the parade grounds but we spent our time marching all over the hills and running too.

I got the idea our training was actually harder. I suspect that this guy also got more rank since he had prior service. I lost track of him too soon so can't be sure.

I read that piece by DMP and it was really good.He trained after I did and he said and had photos showing they did things we did not do. He had to go through mud in a ditch but I was in mud under machine gun fire but it was not hard at all.





Back in the 70's I had a drinking buddy named "Wart man", a nick because he had a few unusual warts on his neck. . Guy could guzzle beer like a thirsty camel after two weeks in the hot desert! Dude used to get drunk and offer to show the ladies "his big worm". Man did we get a kick out of that when one of them said ,ok show me. He would unbutton his shirt and on his stomach was a big tat' of a big red worm holding a tequila bottle!! Then when the gal said , damn thought you were going to show me the real deal he would say, "no baby I'm afraid that huge snake would scare you , I only show that equipment in private.'.Then he'd give 'em a wink and laugh like hell.
The very few times that the woman said, ok lets go see it he would look at me and say, works like a charm buddy as he escorted the woman towards the exit door . :laugh2:
Was a dozen years later that my other good friend let me in on the gag. Those few times were set ups he had arranged for my benefit. The women were friends of his that I did not know or somebody he paid twenty bucks to go along with it to trick me. Guy was a real hoot....

Dude moved to Montana to work on a ranch last I heard in the early 90's. I hope some cowboy didn't kill him.-;)Tyr


Funny story. I also spoke to DMP's excellent reporting of when he was trained in Basic and Missile AIT.

I had to correct something I said above. Don't know how I promoted myself to PFC but I corrected my post to say E-1.

I was at that time 23. Wortman was quite a bit older. I think in Korea he could have been a teen.

This Wortman was close to China and told me and probably others how it was by the Yalu River. His unit was mostly wiped out. He somehow managed to escape being killed and said the cold of the winter was terrible. When you hear a story like that, you never know for sure if it is true. But when he finished Basic and they handed him SGT E-5 stripes, clearly he told the truth.

I have been trying to recall his life after Korea and I believe when he got out of the Army, he did this and that and ended up opening up something like a TV repair shop. He might have got married and lost his ass in a divorce. He was maybe 5-8-9 as best as I can recall so was not a tall guy. He kept his mouth shut most of the time and simply took his training. I was trying to recall if he said the training we were doing was easier or harder. I expect when he was sent to Korea, he had a minimum of training due to the way Korea needed so many men. But maybe he was merely doing the same training over. I was drafted during peace time so perhaps he figured he might not be in a war again. I got out by the end of Jan 64 so he might have been in Vietnam. I expect he did serve there. For the life of me, I can not recall what town in TX he said he came from. I can't remember one of those TX accents. DMP posted photos so clearly he had kept records. I did not film any of my training. I have photos at Ft. Ord my folks took on a visit they made to me. No photos at all of Ft. Benning but I still remember that base. I think I will post photos of the German base I was at. Called Ledward Barracks. It was a former Nazi panzer base.

[Robert A Whit]

Funny story. I also spoke to DMP's excellent reporting of when he was trained in Basic and Missile AIT.

I had to correct something I said above. Don't know how I promoted myself to PFC but I corrected my post to say E-1.

I was at that time 23. Wortman was quite a bit older. I think in Korea he could have been a teen.

This Wortman was close to China and told me and probably others how it was by the Yalu River. His unit was mostly wiped out. He somehow managed to escape being killed and said the cold of the winter was terrible. When you hear a story like that, you never know for sure if it is true. But when he finished Basic and they handed him SGT E-5 stripes, clearly he told the truth.

I have been trying to recall his life after Korea and I believe when he got out of the Army, he did this and that and ended up opening up something like a TV repair shop. He might have got married and lost his ass in a divorce. He was maybe 5-8-9 as best as I can recall so was not a tall guy. He kept his mouth shut most of the time and simply took his training. I was trying to recall if he said the training we were doing was easier or harder. I expect when he was sent to Korea, he had a minimum of training due to the way Korea needed so many men. But maybe he was merely doing the same training over. I was drafted during peace time so perhaps he figured he might not be in a war again. I got out by the end of Jan 64 so he might have been in Vietnam. I expect he did serve there. For the life of me, I can not recall what town in TX he said he came from. I can't remember one of those TX accents. DMP posted photos so clearly he had kept records. I did not film any of my training. I have photos at Ft. Ord my folks took on a visit they made to me. No photos at all of Ft. Benning but I still remember that base. I think I will post photos of the German base I was at. Called Ledward Barracks. It was a former Nazi panzer base.

Well I wasted my time locating photos, putting them on my system and downloading them to this thread. The damned system timed me out so the photos did not stick.

If any of you actually want to see them, let me know.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well I wasted my time locating photos, putting them on my system and downloading them to this thread. The damned system timed me out so the photos did not stick.

If any of you actually want to see them, let me know.

If there are any hot babes in them go ahead and post them. Eye candy is always a welcomed treat.-;)--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

there is something new ive just learned.... thanks!!!

i did not know people switched branches.

Why are you so interested in Ranger tabs?
Not dating a new Ranger are you?? ;)----Tyr

[Syrenn]

Why are you so interested in Ranger tabs?
Not dating a new Ranger are you?? ;)----Tyr

lol... no, not dating a ranger.

The question of who had or did not have ranger tabs came up. I was curious what this ranger tab was that someone would lie so that people would believe he did have them.


i get it a bit better now...... having ranger tabs would make you superior to others.

[Robert A Whit]

lol... no, not dating a ranger.

The question of who had or did not have ranger tabs came up. I was curious what this ranger tab was that someone would lie so that people would believe he did have them.


i get it a bit better now...... having ranger tabs would make you superior to others.

I don't know about superior unless you mean has more training than some.

I am sure a lot of regular army NCO or Officers could pass any of those tough schools were they interested in same.

Take Airborne for instance. Were I have to finished airborne, I would have been assigned to the 82nd or 101 Airborne which would have meant I was stuck in the humid South.

In Europe, I did not see any Airborne but realize it is possible that some were there. My unit was called a strike unit. I believe that meant we were to move very fast into combat and had to be always ready. My base was fairly close to Czechoslovakia which was a Red Army country. We were subject to missile attacks from that country and maybe others. MIG fighters were flying in that country. We had drills where our own air force would come in fast and we could not actually hear them approaching to fake fire at our missiles we had on the base. It was a work out for our missile defenses. Though on Ledward barracks base, we had only a few M-60 tanks, up the road was Conn Barracks with a lot of M-60 tanks. Conn also had the site of the Army Airfield where I also served. We had many armored personnel carriers at Ledward as well as an extensive number of jeeps. My first assignment in fact was driving a Jeep for the Company Commander. I then became his clerk. Now, clerks have plenty to do and if they do the job right, things hum. But some clerks are not properly trained. I was for instance never trained for the job. What helped me learn the job is that I happen to dive into a task to make sure i learn it. It was a bitch to learn that job on my own. It put a lot of stress on me. I worked at times 12 hour days or longer. The previous clerk made a mess of things. He probably was schooled to be a clerk.

As to the tasks by the various troops, i imagine a tank driver is not going to run 10 miles very easily. I and the guys who had gone to Ft. Benning could run 10 miles. We ran 5 miles in Germany when i first got there and it was almost too easy. For me but some of the men simply had not run 10 miles so they got tired.

I think of the various groups; Airborne; Rangers' Seals and so forth as men who know things that cause them to be able to accomplish a particular mission. Does it mean they are superior?

Depends on the metric. it was my understanding at the time that Rangers did not have to be qualified as Airborne but that the Green Beret special forces had to be qualified to jump. Rangers at the time i was in did not need to know how to speak Vietnamese or some other language as did Special Forces.

Each type unit has to learn to do what that unit does.

Infantry is a general fighting force. How superior they are depends on the training they get. If they are in an infantry unit that works them hard all the time, they too can be very rugged. Modern wars use vehicles so most of the troops don't march like you see them in WWII movies. They must be mobile and able to move distances fast. We could move our unit very fast since we had vehicles.

Anyway, I am sure others could add even more to this since I got out over 50 years ago. I expect that today's soldiers though using vehicles can do things my era could not do. These current guys can fight all night long. We had no night vision ability. They have computers with them. We had little idea what a computer was.

[Syrenn]

no, this person always wanted to feel superior over anyone else.... lying about having ranger tabs helped him to that goal.


I see why he would want that patina now. From what you all are saying..... having them makes you part of the elite group.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

lol... no, not dating a ranger.

The question of who had or did not have ranger tabs came up. I was curious what this ranger tab was that someone would lie so that people would believe he did have them.


i get it a bit better now...... having ranger tabs would make you superior to others.

Perhaps and likely so if one really has the Ranger tab instead of lying about having it. I've known of that being the case and it was quite ugly when exposed.. Guilty dogs when caught red-handed usually go into hiding....as the same fragile ego that led them to lie about it in the first place will not let them be a man and handle facing the truth when they know others now see it too!

Superior, yes I'd say so for those that did indeed truly receive the Ranger tab....--Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

I was thinking about this macho guy image thing.

Look at this from the point of view of the enemy.

Would the enemy prefer to face a company of Rangers or face a B-52 bomber able to pinpoint the target and wipe out many more enemy in a shorter time than the Rangers? The B-62-s have some super large bombs.

Would the enemy the enemy rather be wiped out by Marines or the blasts from Navy ships?

And Navy carriers have some powerful bomb loaded aircraft.

So, why do the branches have seals, Marines, Special forces and Airborne?

Each commander in the field knows the mission and the restrictions on accomplishing said mission.

A surgical strike may be needed and some enemy captured. Clearly the B-52 can't do that.

So, superior has to be defined. Say the Lt has a platoon to fight with. And he faces armor.

Tell you this, I prefer facing him vs facing armor.

And the Lt and his platoon may be tough as nails but the tank driver sits in the tank and blows you to smithereens.

[Syrenn]

I was thinking about this macho guy image thing.

Look at this from the point of view of the enemy.

Would the enemy prefer to face a company of Rangers or face a B-52 bomber able to pinpoint the target and wipe out many more enemy in a shorter time than the Rangers? The B-62-s have some super large bombs.

Would the enemy the enemy rather be wiped out by Marines or the blasts from Navy ships?

And Navy carriers have some powerful bomb loaded aircraft.

So, why do the branches have seals, Marines, Special forces and Airborne?

Each commander in the field knows the mission and the restrictions on accomplishing said mission.

A surgical strike may be needed and some enemy captured. Clearly the B-52 can't do that.

So, superior has to be defined. Say the Lt has a platoon to fight with. And he faces armor.

Tell you this, I prefer facing him vs facing armor.

And the Lt and his platoon may be tough as nails but the tank driver sits in the tank and blows you to smithereens.


you are confusing what i mean by "superior"

I mean "superior" in the fashion of.... "i am better then all of you, I have ranger tabs and you don't" Someone with a psychological need to lie about themselves because they feel inferior.

I can see that claiming to have ranger tabs when one odes not.... gives them "street creed" so to speak. It moves them from grunt to the elite. It wold make them feel "superior" lying about having ranger tabs when they in fact do not.

[Robert A Whit]

you are confusing what i mean by "superior"

I mean "superior" in the fashion of.... "i am better then all of you, I have ranger tabs and you don't" Someone with a psychological need to lie about themselves because they feel inferior.

I can see that claiming to have ranger tabs when one odes not.... gives them "street creed" so to speak. It moves them from grunt to the elite. It wold make them feel "superior" lying about having ranger tabs when they in fact do not.

I have read all of your posts so am not confused by what you were saying. I was trying to add more color to the situation is all.

Liars will lie. My brother was hitchhiking one time and the guy he got a ride with claimed to be me. Why me?

At the time, I had a name as a race engine builder and owned the company I started up.

I guess this driver figured he might be admired if he persuaded my brother he was me.

Mike of course knew me and told the guy he is my brother and wanted the driver to explain why he pretended to be me. The driver quickly pulled over and my brother got out.

These clowns that suppose by saying they are rangers make them big shots amuse me.

It seems likely they never served in the Army at all.

[Syrenn]

I have read all of your posts so am not confused by what you were saying. I was trying to add more color to the situation is all.

Liars will lie. My brother was hitchhiking one time and the guy he got a ride with claimed to be me. Why me?

At the time, I had a name as a race engine builder and owned the company I started up.

I guess this driver figured he might be admired if he persuaded my brother he was me.

Mike of course knew me and told the guy he is my brother and wanted the driver to explain why he pretended to be me. The driver quickly pulled over and my brother got out.

These clowns that suppose by saying they are rangers make them big shots amuse me.

It seems likely they never served in the Army at all.


oh i dont doubt this person served...... just not as what he claims.


rangers, ranger tabs...and what it all meant i hand no clue about, which is why i asked.

[Robert A Whit]

oh i dont doubt this person served...... just not as what he claims.


rangers, ranger tabs...and what it all meant i hand no clue about, which is why i asked.

If they lie about a thing like that, what else will they lie about?

I would expect him to be able to pass a test.

Where did he get basic training?
Did he serve outside the USA?
What job?
For how long did he serve?
Each person that served, served at various places. Maybe my memory improved because the job I had required me to type many times, the unit, division and so forth. Maybe a lot of guys can't remember. Where would he take his so called Ranger training and he should be able to name the unit. However one caveat. I can't recall the unit i trained in Basic. I simply trained. And it was over 50 years ago. I had no reason to keep informed on that unit or the unit in Airborne at Georgia. I don't recall the unit I was assigned to at Ft. Dix. But a Ranger should be able to give plenty of facts where he spent most of his time.

Sounds as if you found a bull shit artist.

Why do units have this pride factor?

I believe that it is so the kids will run and gun and not ask questions. A person full of pride will try things only an insane person might try without training.

My uncle Gene got killed in combat in Korea and his final letter to grandma spoke to her about war. He said the guys coming to Korea to fight had not much training. He said not to worry about him since he was a professional and had endured combat a lot during WWII.

Gene got shot the following day on a mission to blow up a bridge.


<tbody>
AVANTS EUGENE
SGT
ARMY
ALAMEDA
CALIFORNIA
20 JUL 1950
KILLED IN ACTION

</tbody>