She followed procedure and watched someone die

[tailfins]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/04/california-woman-dies-after-nurse-refuses-to-perform-cpr/

[Robert A Whit]

A good example of the Obama health care laws in action.

Anyway, this happened due to government regulations.

4613

[fj1200]

A good example of the Obama health care laws in action.

Anyway, this happened due to government regulations.

I missed any reference to ACA or government reg.s. :confused:

[Marcus Aurelius]

The 'independent' living facility this happened at, is physically attached to an 'assisted' living facility, owned by the same company. The 'assisted' living facility is fully staffed with nurses who could have assisted, and were literally within shouting distance.

To say 'Sorry, I'm going to let someone die because my boss says I can't do CPR or go find someone who CAN', disgusts me.

[Marcus Aurelius]

A good example of the Obama health care laws in action.

Anyway, this happened due to government regulations.

4613

What government regulation was involved in this? All the stories I read said the independent living facility has a rule stating no CPR, and the residents are informed of it when they sign up.

Disgusting, but there you have it.

[aboutime]

What government regulation was involved in this? All the stories I read said the independent living facility has a rule stating no CPR, and the residents are informed of it when they sign up.

Disgusting, but there you have it.


My wife worked in an Assisted Living facility a while ago. And, due to the extreme ages of many of the patients who resided there. There was an agreement with the family members, for many of the elderly patients to post a DNR. In many cases. Due to the severity of the condition of the patient. Many families put their elderly relatives in places like that expecting them to eventually die peacefully, but under the care of professional nurses, and staff.
The nurse who told the 911 operator she couldn't administer CPR was doing what had been agreed to by the family, and staff.

This has nothing to do with OBAMACARE...but it does demonstrate. If left unreported. What might become a standard of Government design to save money, rather than being the decision of family.

[Robert A Whit]

What government regulation was involved in this? All the stories I read said the independent living facility has a rule stating no CPR, and the residents are informed of it when they sign up.

Disgusting, but there you have it.

That is like saying the facility has the right to decide when you die.

Government regulations make this possible.

[aboutime]

That is like saying the facility has the right to decide when you die.

Government regulations make this possible.



Robert. RIGHT you are. That facility gets signed documents from members of the patient's families for that "DNR".

It's called being able to face reality, and helping to end the misery, and pain of many, very old, or very very sick people.

In other facilities where No "DNR" is used. Every effort is, and must be made to prolong the life of the suffering patient.

Which would you prefer for yourself, with all due respect?
Would you want to be in misery, and unending pain, in a vegetable like state, unable to be fed, always in a coma, or just permitted
to leave this world in the comfort of your sleep????

[Missileman]

That is like saying the facility has the right to decide when you die.

Government regulations make this possible.

Any chance you can provide a link to the "gubmint" regulation this nurse was following during this incident?

[Robert A Whit]

Any chance you can provide a link to the "gubmint" regulation this nurse was following during this incident?

Think what you just said. If anybody can decide when somebody will die, don't you accept it is in government regulations?

i have heard the cops are looking into this.

More of the story.

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. — A nurse's refusal to give CPR to a dying 87-year-old woman at a California independent living home despite desperate pleas from a 911 dispatcher has prompted outrage and spawned a criminal investigation.
The harrowing 7-minute, 16-second call also raised concerns about the nature of the living arrangements for seniors at a time when their numbers are growing in the U.S. and calls for legislation to prevent a repeat of what happened Feb. 26 at the Glenwood Gardens in Bakersfield.
The woman collapsed in the dining room of the retirement home that offers many levels of care. She lived in the independent living building, which state officials said is like a senior apartment complex and doesn't operate under licensing oversight.



"This is a wakeup call," said Assemblywoman Mariko Yamada, chair of the California Assembly Aging and Long-term Care Committee. "I'm sorry it took a tragedy like this to bring it to our attention."
Yamada cautioned that while it's not yet known whether intervention would have saved the woman's life, "we want to investigate because it has caused a lot of concern and alarm."
State officials did not know Monday whether the woman who talked to the 911 dispatcher actually was a nurse, or just identified herself as one during the call. She said one of the home's policies prevented her from doing CPR, according to an audio recording of the call.
"The consensus is if they are a nurse and if they are at work as a nurse, then they should be offering the appropriate medical care," said Russ Heimerich, spokesman for the California Board of Registered Nursing, the agency that licenses health care providers.

The executive director of Glenwood Gardens, Jeffrey Toomer, defended the nurse in a written statement, saying she follow the facility's policy.
"In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives," Toomer said. "That is the protocol we followed."
Toomer offered condolences to the woman's family and said a thorough internal review would be conducted. He told KGET-TV that residents of the facility are informed of the policy and agree to it when they move in. He said the policy does not apply at the adjacent assisted living and skilled nursing facilities.
Multiple calls to the facility and its parent company seeking more information were not returned.
Unlike nursing homes, which provide medical care, independent living facilities generally do not.
"These are like apartments for seniors. You're basically living on your own. They may have some services provided by basic nursing staff, but it's not their responsibility to care for the individual," said Dr. Susan Leonard, a geriatrics expert at the University of California, Los Angeles.
Residents of independent living communities typically are still able to care for themselves, but may need help to get to doctor appointments. In skilled nursing facilities and nursing homes, many residents require around-the-clock care.
Staff members are "required to perform and provide CPR" unless there's a do-not-resuscitate order, said Greg Crist, a senior vice president at the American Health Care Association.
The dead woman, whose name has been reported but not officially released by authorities, did not have such an order on file at the facility, said Battalion Chief Anthony Galagaza of the Bakersfield Fire Department, which was the first on the scene. That's when firefighters immediately began CPR, continuing until she reached the hospital.
Dr. Patricia Harris, who heads the University of Southern California's geriatrics division, said the survival odds are slim among elderly who receive CPR. Even if they survive, they are never the same. She said she would override the home's policy and risk getting fired "rather than watch somebody die in front of me."
During the call, an unidentified woman called from her cell phone, and asked for paramedics to be sent to help the woman. Later, a woman who identified herself as the nurse got on the phone and told dispatcher Tracey Halvorson she was not permitted to do CPR on the woman.
Halvorson urged the nurse to start CPR, warning the consequences could be dire if no one tried to revive the woman, who had been laid out on the floor on her instructions.
"I understand if your boss is telling you, you can't do it," the dispatcher said. "But ... as a human being ... you know, is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?"
"Not at this time," the nurse answered.
Halvorson assured the nurse that Glenwood couldn't be sued if anything went wrong in attempts to resuscitate the resident, saying the local emergency medical system "takes the liability for this call."
Later in the call, Halvorson asked, "Is there a gardener? Any staff, anyone who doesn't work for you? Anywhere? Can we flag someone down in the street and get them to help this lady? Can we flag a stranger down? I bet a stranger would help her."
"I understand if your facility is not willing to do that. Give the phone to a passer-by. This woman is not breathing enough. She is going to die if we don't get this started, do you understand?"
The woman had no pulse and wasn't breathing when fire crews reached her, Galagaza said.
Bakersfield police on Monday were investigating whether there was any criminal wrongdoing. Michaela Beard, a police spokeswoman, said she couldn't provide any further information because the investigation was ongoing.
"It's not uncommon to have someone refuse to provide CPR if they physically can't do it, or they're so upset they just can't function," Kern County Fire Department Deputy Chief Michael Miller said. "What made this one unique was the way the conversation on the phone went. It was just very frustrating to anyone listening to it, like, why wasn't anyone helping this poor woman, since CPR today is much simpler than it was in the past?"
___
Associated Press writers Garance Burke in San Francisco and Alicia Chang in Los Angeles contributed to this report. Cone reported from Sacramento.

Remember too when Dr. Death Kavorkian was loose and killing those who asked him to kill them!!!!!!!!!!

[Kathianne]

It seems this 'home' had a blanket for the unit, no CPR. Many with a DNR, will allow CPR, while not allowing for ventilator or Defibrillation treatment. Depends on the parameters.

[Missileman]

Think what you just said. If anybody can decide when somebody will die, don't you accept it is in government regulations?

i have heard the cops are looking into this.

I don't need to think about what I wrote...it might work better if you actually READ it though. And your argument is bass-ackwards...if the nurse were to have performed CPR, THEN she would have been deciding when a person would die as is the case in nearly all medical treatment.

I'll repeat the request for a link to the government regulation this nurse was following, though I suspect you'll not post it again.

[Robert A Whit]

I don't need to think about what I wrote...it might work better if you actually READ it though. And your argument is bass-ackwards...if the nurse were to have performed CPR, THEN she would have been deciding when a person would die as is the case in nearly all medical treatment.

I'll repeat the request for a link to the government regulation this nurse was following, though I suspect you'll not post it again.

Nah

Nope

Nuhhhh uhhhh

So solly cholly

[fj1200]

That is like saying the facility has the right to decide when you die.

Government regulations make this possible.

Contract law makes this possible.


Think what you just said. If anybody can decide when somebody will die, don't you accept it is in government regulations?

...
"This is a wakeup call," said Assemblywoman Mariko Yamada, chair of the California Assembly Aging and Long-term Care Committee. "I'm sorry it took a tragedy like this to bring it to our attention."
Yamada cautioned that while it's not yet known whether intervention would have saved the woman's life, "we want to investigate because it has caused a lot of concern and alarm."
State officials did not know Monday whether the woman who talked to the 911 dispatcher actually was a nurse, or just identified herself as one during the call. She said one of the home's policies prevented her from doing CPR, according to an audio recording of the call.
"The consensus is if they are a nurse and if they are at work as a nurse, then they should be offering the appropriate medical care," said Russ Heimerich, spokesman for the California Board of Registered Nursing, the agency that licenses health care providers.


The patient presumably made the decision when entering the facility.

And based on the actions of the Assemblywoman now you appear to be FOR new regulations that enter into private agreements. That doesn't seem to align with your position of personal freedoms.

[Marcus Aurelius]

That is like saying the facility has the right to decide when you die.

Government regulations make this possible.

And I asked you which government regulation caused this. You don't seem to want to answer with anything specific. Why?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

My wife worked in an Assisted Living facility a while ago. And, due to the extreme ages of many of the patients who resided there. There was an agreement with the family members, for many of the elderly patients to post a DNR. In many cases. Due to the severity of the condition of the patient. Many families put their elderly relatives in places like that expecting them to eventually die peacefully, but under the care of professional nurses, and staff.
The nurse who told the 911 operator she couldn't administer CPR was doing what had been agreed to by the family, and staff.

This has nothing to do with OBAMACARE...but it does demonstrate. If left unreported. What might become a standard of Government design to save money, rather than being the decision of family.

A planned standard of government designed coming in the near future!!-Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

If there was a DNR order in place and the patients Health Care Proxy was there to see that it was adhered to or had notified the staff of the DNR then there are NO HEROIC ATTEMPTS made to save the patient as per the DNR.

Period... end of story... It's Legally binding.

If the Hospital or facility willfully disregards the DNR they can be sued for malpractice.

[tailfins]

If there was a DNR order in place and the patients Health Care Proxy was there to see that it was adhered to or had notified the staff of the DNR then there are NO HEROIC ATTEMPTS made to save the patient as per the DNR.

Period... end of story... It's Legally binding.

If the Hospital or facility willfully disregards the DNR they can be sued for malpractice.

It sounds like the facility had a general policy of not providing assistance. What is interesting here is that the nurse and the facility are two separate entities. Could it be that the facility is legally in the clear while the nurse risks getting action taken against her nursing license?

[darin]

If I were in the Healthcare field, I'd not work for a place with such policies; Nor would I purchase living space from a company with those policies.


This is more a buyer-beware story than a health care story.

[Abbey Marie]

Yes. perhaps the facility and/or the nurse are "covered" for their refusal to act to save the woman. (And CPR is not a "heroic" act, as far as I know). But big picture- it appears we've lost all sense of decency and humanity as a society.

How sad to hear the 911 operator futiley begging the nurse to find any bystander to perform CPR on this woman. Our most vulnerable folks are slowly but surely (not so slowly in abortions) being shunted aside as worthless.

[fj1200]

Yes. perhaps the facility and/or the nurse are "covered" for their refusal to act to save the woman. (And CPR is not a "heroic" act, as far as I know). But big picture- it appears we've lost all sense of decency and humanity as a society.

How sad to hear the 911 operator futiley begging the burse to find any bystander to perform CPR on this woman. Our most vulnerable folks are slowly but surely (not so slowly in abortions) being shunted aside as worthless.

A bit of an overstatement if you ask me.

Spokesman says woman who refused to give CPR to dying 87-year-old wasn't a nurse (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/05/spokesman-says-woman-who-refused-to-give-cpr-to-dying-87-year-old-wasnt-nurse/?intcmp=trending)

It prompted calls for legislation Monday to prevent a repeat of what happened at Glenwood Gardens.

They apparently had clear policies that all were aware of and if we jump on the regulation bandwagon that just admits more power to the State.

[Abbey Marie]

A bit of an overstatement if you ask me.

Spokesman says woman who refused to give CPR to dying 87-year-old wasn't a nurse (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/05/spokesman-says-woman-who-refused-to-give-cpr-to-dying-87-year-old-wasnt-nurse/?intcmp=trending)


They apparently had clear policies that all were aware of and if we jump on the regulation bandwagon that just admits more power to the State.


So you would dryly characterize this as a procedural/contractual issue only? That is a bit of an understatement.

If we are going down the nurse/not nurse path, that is a completely different issue and not what the story seemed to say. I thought the argument was that the employee wasn't required to do CPR?

[darin]

Whether the person refusing life-saving actions was a nurse or not doesn't matter FJ - I think she's a cold person for refusing; policies be damned.</SPAN>


Fact: Many municipalities have "good Samaritan" laws no? Where there's a modicum of compulsion to help? Wonder if those laws would circumvent business policies?</SPAN></SPAN>

[Abbey Marie]

Whether the person refusing life-saving actions was a nurse or not doesn't matter FJ - I think she's a cold person for refusing; policies be damned.


Fact: Many municipalities have "good Samaritan" laws no? Where there's a modicum of compulsion to help? Wonder if those laws would circumvent business policies?

Exactly what I meant by "big picture". It is easy for some to get lost in the weeds with policies and regulations. Harder apparently to see the person as a vulnerable human worth saving regardless of contractual provisos. Kudos to the 911 operator for seeing past that. The more we let such things determine our behavior in critical situations, the more inhumane we end up becoming.

[fj1200]

So you would dryly characterize this as a procedural/contractual issue only? That is a bit of an understatement.

If we are going down the nurse/not nurse path, that is a completely different issue and not what the story seemed to say. I thought the argument was that the employee wasn't required to do CPR?

Well that's what it is. And nurse/not nurse? That was the headline from the later article but the stated policy is to not perform CPR regardless of the individual's status as far as I read.


Whether the person refusing life-saving actions was a nurse or not doesn't matter FJ - I think she's a cold person for refusing; policies be damned.


Fact: Many municipalities have "good Samaritan" laws no? Where there's a modicum of compulsion to help? Wonder if those laws would circumvent business policies?

A cold person? I won't judge her from where I'm sitting with what's been presented.




Nevertheless, so I can mentally check some boxes; some here, generally conservative, wish for new government initiatives to quell this epidemic?

[tailfins]

Yes. perhaps the facility and/or the nurse are "covered" for their refusal to act to save the woman. (And CPR is not a "heroic" act, as far as I know). But big picture- it appears we've lost all sense of decency and humanity as a society.

How sad to hear the 911 operator futiley begging the nurse to find any bystander to perform CPR on this woman. Our most vulnerable folks are slowly but surely (not so slowly in abortions) being shunted aside as worthless.

Decency and humanity are outmoded concepts. Expecting such is no longer realistic.

[darin]

A cold person? I won't judge her from where I'm sitting with what's been presented.



Her actions betray her heart.


...doesn't matter who we are deep down, it's what we do that defines us...

[tailfins]

Her actions betray her heart.

It's where conformity leads us. The only place you're going to find "decency and humanity" is from people willing to defy authority. Decent people these days are boat rockers. I'm shocked when I find them, not when I don't.

[Abbey Marie]

Well that's what it is. And nurse/not nurse? That was the headline from the later article but the stated policy is to not perform CPR regardless of the individual's status as far as I read.



A cold person? I won't judge her from where I'm sitting with what's been presented.




Nevertheless, so I can mentally check some boxes; some here, generally conservative, wish for new government initiatives to quell this epidemic?


I don't think it can be explained any more clearly. You either value that life more than procedures, or you don't.

I don't see Darin or I demanding government regulations. I believe we are calling for decency, and the integrity not to fall back on policies when you can choose to save a life. Darin's point about Good Samaritan laws are an excellent example of how that feeling has been codified, but not the main point here.

[fj1200]

Her actions betray her heart.

I don't know where you pulled that from.


I don't think it can be explained any more clearly. You either vlaue that life more than procedures, or you don't.

I disagree with your assessment.


Dr. Patricia Harris, who heads the University of Southern California's geriatrics division, said the survival odds are slim among elderly who receive CPR. Even if they survive, they are never the same. She said she would override the home's policy and risk getting fired "rather than watch somebody die in front of me."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/05/spokesman-says-woman-who-refused-to-give-cpr-to-dying-87-year-old-wasnt-nurse/?intcmp=trending#ixzz2MgtqgoRR


I don't see Darin or I demanding government regulations. I believe we are calling for decency, and the integrity not to fall back on policies when you can choose to save a life. Darin's point about Good Samaritan laws are an excellent example of how that feeling has been codified, but not the main point here.

I presume you won't be complaining about end-of-life Medicare costs then?

[logroller]

It is my understanding that this lady willfully signed up knowing that CPR wouldnt be performed; Why would violating someone's will be more decent?
If you want to make the argument that the policy was against her wishes, that's another story-- Which relates to the current challenge before scotus on private companies/institutions which refuse to cover contraceptives.

[Robert A Whit]

The patient presumably made the decision when entering the facility.

And based on the actions of the Assemblywoman now you appear to be FOR new regulations that enter into private agreements. That doesn't seem to align with your position of personal freedoms.

To live in a place like that, takes some money. Apparently we now learn that her estate winners approve letting her die.
Then we have a nurse, it is claimed, who appears to think her nurses license is tantamount to let the "old bitch" go.

I said government regulations allowed for this to happen. Now the state congress wants to change this.

She was living not in a care facility, but a living facility. She enjoyed on site meals. She enjoyed on site recreation and the like.

It was more like an apartment with benefits.

I fault the way the Nurse dragged ass. She did not even try.

If she worked for a company that said, let the bitch die, she got hired by the wrong place.

CA is sue happy. It may be that the estate does this to the facility.


Robert. RIGHT you are. That facility gets signed documents from members of the patient's families for that "DNR".

It's called being able to face reality, and helping to end the misery, and pain of many, very old, or very very sick people.

In other facilities where No "DNR" is used. Every effort is, and must be made to prolong the life of the suffering patient.

Which would you prefer for yourself, with all due respect?
Would you want to be in misery, and unending pain, in a vegetable like state, unable to be fed, always in a coma, or just permitted
to leave this world in the comfort of your sleep????

There was no DNR agreement.

For one reason, the apartments agreed to provide meals, and service to the apartment and recreation facilities and more to the person who was not in any way a patient. She was some woman of means that could afford to pay bucks and live in fine style without having to lift a finger to clean up her apartment. Think of it more as living in a hotel.

This jibber jabber that she had a DNR on file is not the fact.

First, they don't provide any medical care.


And I asked you which government regulation caused this. You don't seem to want to answer with anything specific. Why?

Have you ever tried to flush out said regulations?

I will spend days, maybe trying to do what you don't want to do. CA of all states is the most burdened by regulations.

Tell you what, just chalk that statement up to it being my opinion.

[tailfins]

There was no DNR agreement.

For one reason, the apartments agreed to provide meals, and service to the apartment and recreation facilities and more to the person who was not in any way a patient. She was some woman of means that could afford to pay bucks and live in fine style without having to lift a finger to clean up her apartment. Think of it more as living in a hotel.

This jibber jabber that she had a DNR on file is not the fact.

First, they don't provide any medical care.

Hence, the refusal to provide a service not paid for. I think that's the heart of the facility policy. The thing that struck me about the article is the consequences of unquestioned conformity. It's the norm in corporate culture these days. I'm disappointed but not surprised.

[Robert A Whit]

Contract law makes this possible.



The patient presumably made the decision when entering the facility.

And based on the actions of the Assemblywoman now you appear to be FOR new regulations that enter into private agreements. That doesn't seem to align with your position of personal freedoms.
1) she was not a patient no more than you are at some hotel.
2. I look at this as having a professional standing over you while you die not willing to assist. The nurse should not have got a license when she refused to use it. I am not complaining so much at the facility since I understand it's reasons to let the old bag die, but I fault the nurse. She did what she did to avoid a lawsuit. That is life in CA. Suing here is like brushing your teeth.
3. When you enter an apartment building and pay rent for quarters, food and entertainment, do you forfeit the right to life? What if the nurse had been a physician. (where did all this talk of DNR come from)

Would that alter your view?


Hence, the refusal to provide a service not paid for. I think that's the heart of the facility policy. The thing that struck me about the article is the consequences of unquestioned conformity. It's the norm in corporate culture these days. I'm disappointed but not surprised.

True, the way my local news explains it, is it amounts to an apartment with benefits. We have those in my city too. Old people for a huge sum can be taken care of less medical assistance.

My major fault is with the nurse. Even as an employee, she let a woman die. But worse than that, what was a nurse doing there working if she decided to follow policy and not her license to deliver care? What was the purpose of hiring a nurse then ban her from doing what she was trained to do?

Somebody said this runs counter to my call for human freedoms. But this Nurse trained to do this. She was educated to take care of people. Why have such a person on premises but to help people in need?

Somebody says there was a DNR. I have not heard that but on this board.


It is my understanding that this lady willfully signed up knowing that CPR wouldnt be performed; Why would violating someone's will be more decent?
If you want to make the argument that the policy was against her wishes, that's another story-- Which relates to the current challenge before scotus on private companies/institutions which refuse to cover contraceptives.

That is news to me other than a few saying that here.

Don't forget, she as a nurse had trained to help save lives. As to this DNR, I have not heard that on my local news. I get your link to contraceptives as an argument but it was a nurse evading using her license. Why have one if she won't make use of it?

[fj1200]

Would that alter your view?

I'm not quite sure what you're driving at.


But this Nurse trained to do this.

Apparently not a nurse.

[darin]

I don't know where you pulled that from.




The Bible.


Here's Abby and dmp and others: How can a person with a beating heart sit by and watch somebody DIE because of corporate POLICY?? Horrid...

Here's FJ and others "Law, blah, blah contract, blah blah, legal-bullshit-that-does-not-change-the-tragedy-of-the-facts-as-we-know-it"

[tailfins]

True, the way my local news explains it, is it amounts to an apartment with benefits. We have those in my city too. Old people for a huge sum can be taken care of less medical assistance.

My major fault is with the nurse. Even as an employee, she let a woman die. But worse than that, what was a nurse doing there working if she decided to follow policy and not her license to deliver care? What was the purpose of hiring a nurse then ban her from doing what she was trained to do?

Somebody said this runs counter to my call for human freedoms. But this Nurse trained to do this. She was educated to take care of people. Why have such a person on premises but to help people in need?

Somebody says there was a DNR. I have not heard that but on this board.

Nursing isn't the only professions large corporations do this to. A TRUE professional will defy the corporation when idiocy occurs. There's always another job. I can't count the times in both the Actuarial and IT fields that I have been pressured to fulfill a checklist and let faulty insurance rates or a broken software application go out the door. In too many places craftsmanship is irrelevant and rear-covering is all that matters.

[Robert A Whit]

Independent living facilities "should not have a policy that says you can stand there and watch somebody die," said Pat McGinnis, founder of California Advocates for Nursing Home Reform, a consumer advocacy group. "How a nurse can do that is beyond comprehension."
In all her years of advocating for the elderly, McGinnis said: "This was so horrifying. I've never seen this happen before."
State officials did not know Monday whether the woman who talked to the 911 dispatcher actually was a nurse, or just identified herself as one during the call. She said one of the home's policies prevented her from doing CPR, according to an audio recording of the call.
"The consensus is if they are a nurse and if they are at work as a nurse, then they should be offering the appropriate medical care," said Russ Heimerich, spokesman for the California Board of Registered Nursing, the agency that licenses health care providers.
The executive director of Glenwood Gardens, Jeffrey Toomer, defended the nurse in a written statement, saying she followed the facility's policy.
"In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community, our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives," Toomer said. "That is the protocol we followed."

[fj1200]

The Bible.


Here's Abby and dmp and others: How can a person with a beating heart sit by and watch somebody DIE because of corporate POLICY?? Horrid...

Here's FJ and others "Law, blah, blah contract, blah blah, legal-bullshit-that-does-not-change-the-tragedy-of-the-facts-as-we-know-it"

Maybe they have a reason for the policy. But don't let me get in the way of your superiority.


Dr. Patricia Harris, who heads the University of Southern California's geriatrics division, said the survival odds are slim among elderly who receive CPR. Even if they survive, they are never the same. She said she would override the home's policy and risk getting fired "rather than watch somebody die in front of me."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/05/spokesman-says-woman-who-refused-to-give-cpr-to-dying-87-year-old-wasnt-nurse/?intcmp=trending#ixzz2MgtqgoRR

[darin]

Maybe they have a reason for the policy. But don't let me get in the way of your superiority.

Doesn't change the tragedy. Watching somebody die because of fear of "x" is tragedy nonetheless. Know that makes me superior.

[tailfins]

Maybe they have a reason for the policy. But don't let me get in the way of your superiority.

I disagree with your content, but agree with your attitude. It's like a boiled frog. I suspect the nurse didn't wake up one day and decide to be a scumbag. However it's a good gut-check for mindless conformists. Imagine the nurse's reputation if she had been fired after rendering help. She would have a new job in short order, be a hero and only the facility would look like a turd.

[fj1200]

Doesn't change the tragedy. Watching somebody die because of fear of "x" is tragedy nonetheless. Know that makes me superior.

I didn't say it wasn't tragic but good on 'ya bro; superiority from a news story while admitting ignorance of "x."


I disagree with your content, but agree with your attitude. It's like a boiled frog. I suspect the nurse didn't wake up one day and decide to be a scumbag. However it's a good gut-check for mindless conformists. Imagine the nurse's reputation if she had been fired after rendering help. She would have a new job in short order, be a hero and only the facility would look like a turd.

Apparently not a nurse but I don't see making any grand judgements based on two news stories.

[darin]

I didn't say it wasn't tragic but good on 'ya bro; superiority from a news story while admitting ignorance of "x."



Apparently not a nurse but I don't see making any grand judgements based on two news stories.


So you beat people up as they express concern, now say you had concern too? You don't make sense. That's another piece of evidence supporting my superiority. :) </SPAN>

[fj1200]

So you beat people up as they express concern, now say you had concern too? You don't make sense. That's another piece of evidence supporting my superiority. :)

Who did I beat up? Feeling sad?

[darin]

Who did I beat up? Feeling sad?


You tried...



Here's Abby and dmp and others: How can a person with a beating heart sit by and watch somebody DIE because of corporate POLICY?? Horrid...

Here's FJ and others "Law, blah, blah contract, blah blah, legal-bullshit-that-does-not-change-the-tragedy-of-the-facts-as-we-know-it"

[gabosaurus]

A good example of the Obama health care laws in action.

Anyway, this happened due to government regulations.



https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwYPR9dcNfkPh3ExdQbhE1rxfAJXYsD XjDaSjN1ssXob3BJAfB

[tailfins]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwYPR9dcNfkPh3ExdQbhE1rxfAJXYsD XjDaSjN1ssXob3BJAfB


You have proven it's possible to be both.

[fj1200]

You tried...

You're quoting yourself to prove something I said? Interesting technique. :rolleyes:


The Bible.

Interesting god you have there btw.

[aboutime]

You have proven it's possible to be both.


Tailfins. That photo is probably one of the most Accurate, Up-to-date, Realistic Avatar's to describe Gabby we have seen.

Thank you.

[Abbey Marie]

Maybe they have a reason for the policy. But don't let me get in the way of your superiority.

Oh, I'm sure they do. Here's one possibility:
"We will charge you much more for the assisted living area, where our trained professionals will actually use the most basic technique to try to save your loved one's life. Oh, you can't afford that section? Sucks to be your Mom."

[Abbey Marie]

... (
(Dr. Patricia Harris, who heads the University of Southern California's geriatrics division)
She said she would override the home's policy and risk getting fired "rather than watch somebody die in front of me."


From your own quoted material...

[aboutime]

Oh, I'm sure they do. Here's one possibility:
"We will charge you much more for the assisted living area, where our trained professionals will actually use the most basic technique to try to save your loved one's life. Oh, you can't afford that section? Sucks to be your Mom."


Abbey. We all know. Until WE become that person who lives in a place like that during our Old Age years.

Not one of us is willing to admit..."We would want to live....or die that way!"

It's so easy for all of us to second-guess, offer our opinions, or complain. UNTIL WE become the victim. Then...all bets are off!

[Missileman]

Oh, I'm sure they do. Here's one possibility:
"We will charge you much more for the assisted living area, where our trained professionals will actually use the most basic technique to try to save your loved one's life. Oh, you can't afford that section? Sucks to be your Mom."

There's a reason it costs more to stay at a hospital than a Motel 6.

[taft2012]

I have a rather obvious question: If there was supposedly some kind of DNR or non-assistance policy in effect, why did the nurse call 911 for medical assistance?

And why even have a nurse on hand in the first place?

[aboutime]

I have a rather obvious question: If there was supposedly some kind of DNR or non-assistance policy in effect, why did the nurse call 911 for medical assistance?

And why even have a nurse on hand in the first place?


Taft. My wife and I were asking the very same question. "Why did anybody call 911 in the first place?"

I later learned that they intended for the Emergency, EMS crew that would arrive too late...to perform the CPR.

Calling 911 if they had no intentions of saving the dying person was probably authorized by the company who runs
the facility.

We know that as "C Y A". And they know it as Prevention of a Law Suit.

[Abbey Marie]

There's a reason it costs more to stay at a hospital than a Motel 6.

I recently toured one of these facilities with a family member. It was a heck of a lot more than a Motel 6. Or at least the one I toured was. Maybe this place was a joke, but that doesn't mean anyone needs to defend it for its joke-ness.

[Robert A Whit]

I recently toured one of these facilities with a family member. It was a heckl of a lot more than a Motel 6. Or at least the one I toured was. Maybe this place was a joke, but that doesn't mean anyone needs to defend it for its joke-ness.

Having hospital experience, let me focus it in a different way.

At the best hotel in a fancy city, for the room rate alone, at a hospital, one can stay in a very large room, far more luxurous than the best hospital. At the hotel, you can have room service and eat very fine food. You can pay a doctor to do visits at the hotel. And you can hire a nurse.

Hotels are missing an opportunity to house patients and provide top medical people.

[Kathianne]

There's a reason it costs more to stay at a hospital than a Motel 6.

the higher the level of care, the more it costs. We kept my mom at home with 24/7 nursing for 3 years. When the caretaker that she got along with, (one person, not 3 as originally planned), (after many that she wouldn't), had to leave to go back to Ukraine, we had no choice but to put her in a home that could care for her. Not only was she medically fragile, her bones would break with light pressure, she was psychologically fragile in the sense that she trusted no one outside of my dad and my brother and myself.

Honestly, my mom never adjusted to the nursing home, though she never tried to guilt any of us, from my knowledge. My dad spent the most time with her, twice a day. My brother and I and our kids got there during the week, all that were home on Sundays went there for mass. We do have some good memories, but they are overshadowed by the vibrant women that went before the strokes and twice broken hip.

Even so, there are memories. Her getting in a fight with a much larger, mobile women. My mom weighed about 68 lbs, confined to a wheelchair, when this women took a doll away from another patient. The woman losing the doll was crying, my mom told the big woman to 'give the baby back.' the big woman refused to comply and my mom rammed her with her wheelchair and then punched her. My brother got the call, 'You need tell your mother to find acceptable ways to express her opinions." My brother asked, "How the would suggest dealing with someone that stole dolls and considered that alright?" Considering his law experience, they sort of shut down.

It was never lost on us that familial connections had played a major role in getting my mom in so quickly or into a place of such reputation. My dad's friend had both donated the real estate and donated the funding to build the the home; when he requested my mom gain admittance, it was done in less than a week, despite a waiting list of over 6 months. Yes, we all knew, except my mom, that others were there before. Would you have balked if given that advantage for you mom or dad? My mom was a great mom, no regrets.

[logroller]

Oh, I'm sure they do. Here's one possibility:
"We will charge you much more for the assisted living area, where our trained professionals will actually use the most basic technique to try to save your loved one's life. Oh, you can't afford that section? Sucks to be your Mom."
That's the free market and it does suck sometimes--that's why we have regulations-- however, it appears the facility doesn't have an assisted living section, its been applied for...perhaps they have such a policy pursuant to their non-regulated status.

Glenwood’s independent living facility, like all such businesses in California, are not licensed; they operate like apartments with special amenities such as laundry and meal services.

This would change if the state approves the company’s plan to turn the Calloway Drive complex into a continuing care retirement community.


These centers combine the services of a skilled nursing facility with those of an assisted living facility and an independent living facility. They typically command higher prices than offering such services independently.


State records show Glenwood Gardens’ application is pending. A spokesman for the state Department of Social Services was unable to determine when the application was filed, when a decision on the proposal is expected, or whether Bayless’ death could affect the application.


Bayless’ daughter, Pam Bradford, told The Californian Monday that she wanted the attention surrounding her mother’s death to dissipate.


“I just wish you would let the story die and you would let us be in peace,” Bradford said.


— Californian staff writer Steven Mayer contributed to this report.
http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/local/x738926924/Police-probe-Glenwood-Gardens-death?utm_source=widget_63&utm_medium=latest_entries_widget&utm_campaign=synapse

[Kathianne]

Both of my parents left living wills. The specified to the best of their abilities their will regarding 'extraordinary means.' For the most part my dad made decisions regarding my mom, though because of their living wills, my brother and I had to sign off with him. We did. No, my mom would not have had CPR, though that never became an issue.

With my dad, 3 years after my mom had passed, my brother and I again faced choices. Truth is, my dad already had chosen to pass, so we were limited. He went into hospital on a Saturday, I drove him, Sunday he was in coma. He died 4 hours later, with my youngest son and nephew with him. I never thought he could pass so fast. My mom had been sick for so long.

Little did any of us know that a few days later, my nephew would be fighting for his life. We found out he had a brain tumor, the morning after my dad''s funeral, 5 weeks before his wedding. He underwent brain surgery, (2 more later), and made his wedding. What a wedding!

He now has a son, 3. Prognosis is guarded, but advances are progressing, to this point. I must admit, I'm concerned about Obama care, not so much for myself or my kids, but for Jay. I think breakthroughs are going to be rare or non-existant.

[fj1200]

Oh, I'm sure they do. Here's one possibility:
"We will charge you much more for the assisted living area, where our trained professionals will actually use the most basic technique to try to save your loved one's life. Oh, you can't afford that section? Sucks to be your Mom."

Or another possibility... they got exactly what they wanted.


From your own quoted material...

Yup, I quoted it. So a healthcare professional would have made a personal decision that may not have been in the best interest of the resident.


I have a rather obvious question: If there was supposedly some kind of DNR or non-assistance policy in effect, why did the nurse call 911 for medical assistance?

And why even have a nurse on hand in the first place?

Apparently, not a nurse.

[Robert A Whit]

The 911 caller was a nurse.
The family is super happy.

I expect they got rid of a problem and she left them her money.

[Abbey Marie]

That's the free market and it does suck sometimes--that's why we have regulations-- however, it appears the facility doesn't have an assisted living section, its been applied for...perhaps they have such a policy pursuant to their non-regulated status.

http://www.bakersfieldcalifornian.com/local/x738926924/Police-probe-Glenwood-Gardens-death?utm_source=widget_63&utm_medium=latest_entries_widget&utm_campaign=synapse


From the OP article:


He told KGET-TV that residents of the home's independent living community are informed of the policy and agree to it when they move in. He said the policy does not apply at the adjacent assisted living and skilled nursing facilities.
...

[taft2012]

I later learned that they intended for the Emergency, EMS crew that would arrive too late...to perform the CPR.

Calling 911 if they had no intentions of saving the dying person was probably authorized by the company who runs
the facility.

We know that as "C Y A". And they know it as Prevention of a Law Suit.

I doubt that's going to be enough to CYA. Something about this whole story doesn't add up. There's a big piece of the puzzle missing somewhere.

I would imagine the nurses' professional license is somehow in jeopardy now. I get a feeling that after all is said and done, and blame is assigned, the nurse will walk away with about 98% of the blame pie.

I can't imagine anyone getting into the business of housing old folks like this, and designing a policy that directs nurses to call 911, then hang up the phone and continue watching "Wheel of Fortune" until the ambulance arrives.

And I'm sure the state nursing board has some specific guidelines about providing emergency medical assistance when working and on-duty, which will override any directives coming from non-health professional employers.

[fj1200]

California woman denied CPR wanted no intervention, family says (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/05/spokesman-says-woman-who-refused-to-give-cpr-to-dying-87-year-old-wasnt-nurse/?intcmp=trending#ixzz2Mlt1jnGP)

[taft2012]

California woman denied CPR wanted no intervention, family says (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/05/spokesman-says-woman-who-refused-to-give-cpr-to-dying-87-year-old-wasnt-nurse/?intcmp=trending#ixzz2Mlt1jnGP)



In which case, why call 911 to come and do something?

[fj1200]

In which case, why call 911 to come and do something?

:dunno:


"This incident resulted from a complete misunderstanding of our practice with regards to emergency medical care for our residents," the Tennessee-based company said.

Bakersfield Police: No Criminal Charges Over Death of Woman Denied CPR (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/bakersfield-police-criminal-charges-death-woman-denied-cpr/story?id=18666182)

[taft2012]

:dunno:



Bakersfield Police: No Criminal Charges Over Death of Woman Denied CPR (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/bakersfield-police-criminal-charges-death-woman-denied-cpr/story?id=18666182)



That's a non-sequitur.

If the arrangement was to "do nothing," she "did something." She called 911 to have them come and "do something."

That's not a criminal offense, but it does open them up to civil liability for violating the agreement.

[fj1200]

That's a non-sequitur.

If the arrangement was to "do nothing," she "did something." She called 911 to have them come and "do something."

That's not a criminal offense, but it does open them up to civil liability for violating the agreement.

Your words disagree. If they have policy they need to follow it.

[taft2012]

If they have policy they need to follow it.


.... and she didn't follow it, because she took action and called 911 to come and do something.

[Voted4Reagan]

Womans family said she had a DNR and it is what she wanted.

Nursing home will not be prosecuted as they followed the families wishes.

Story over

[fj1200]

.... and she didn't follow it, because she took action and called 911 to come and do something.

You must have a link to their policy then.


Womans family said she had a DNR and it is what she wanted.

Nursing home will not be prosecuted as they followed the families wishes.

Story over

I agree but I haven't seen a positive reference to the DNR.

[taft2012]

Yo! They be sum stone-headed stoopidity goin' on up in he-yuh!

Criminal prosecution =/= civil liability.

[Voted4Reagan]

You must have a link to their policy then.



I agree but I haven't seen a positive reference to the DNR.

fAMILY RELEASED A STATEMENT LAST NIGHT THAT IT WAS HER WISH

[fj1200]

fAMILY RELEASED A STATEMENT LAST NIGHT THAT IT WAS HER WISH

Her wish and a document stating such are two different things.

[tailfins]

In which case, why call 911 to come and do something?

To avoid criminal charges. To get a police/coroner report documenting the cause of death.