Why don't we see Islamic attacks in Latin America?

[tailfins]

Any ideas why?

[Voted4Reagan]

Latin America is almost 100% Catholic

To Muslims and Islamist fundamentalists it is not worth it to try and convert people or set up operations.

They'd stand out too much.

[taft2012]

Good question.

It'd be easy enough. Just attack them at noon when they're all asleep under them big dopey hats.

[revelarts]

http://www.amazon.com/Dying-Win-Strategic-Suicide-Terrorism/dp/0812973380/lewrockwell/
Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism

...I have compiled a database of every suicide bombing and attack around the globe from 1980 through 2003—315 attacks in all.1 It includes every attack in which at least one terrorist killed himself or herself while attempting to kill others; it excludes attacks authorized by a national government, for example by North Korea against the South. This database is the first complete universe of suicide terrorist attacks worldwide. I have amassed and independently verified all the relevant information that could be found in English and other languages (for example, Arabic, Hebrew, Russian, and Tamil) in print and on-line. The information is drawn from suicide terrorist groups themselves, from the main organizations that collect such data in target countries, and from news media around the world. More than a “list of lists,” this database probably represents the most comprehensive and reliable survey of suicide terrorist attacks that is now available.

The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. In fact, the leading instigators of suicide attacks are the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a Marxist-Leninist group whose members are from Hindu families but who are adamantly opposed to religion. This group committed 76 of the 315 incidents, more suicide attacks than Hamas.

Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland. Religion is rarely the root cause, although it is often used as a tool by terrorist organizations in recruiting and in other efforts in service of the broader strategic objective....

Dying to Win is a startling work of analysis grounded in fact, not politics, that recommends concrete ways for states to fight and prevent terrorist attacks now. Transcending speculation with systematic scholarship, this is one of the most important studies of the terrorist threat to the United States and its allies since 9/11.

“Invaluable . . . gives Americans an urgently needed basis for devising a strategy to defeat Osama bin Laden and other Islamist militants.”
–Michael Scheuer, author of Imperial Hubris and former CIA head of the Bin Laden Task Force

“Provocative . . . Pape wants to change the way you think about suicide bombings and explain why they are on the rise.”
–Henry Schuster, CNN.com

“Enlightening . . . sheds interesting light on a phenomenon often mistakenly believed to be restricted to the Middle East.”
–The Washington Post Book World

“Brilliant.”
–Peter Bergen, author of Holy War, Inc.

doesn't fit the picture painted in the US by some politicians and the media.
Makes people have to think instead of blame a boggie man.

...Three general patterns in the data support my conclusions. First, nearly all suicide terrorist attacks occur as part of organized campaigns, not as isolated or random incidents. Of the 315 separate attacks in the period I studied, 301 could have their roots traced to large, coherent political or military campaigns.

Second, democratic states are uniquely vulnerable to suicide terrorists. The United States, France, India, Israel, Russia, Sri Lanka, and Turkey have been the targets of almost every suicide attack of the past two decades, and each country has been a democracy at the time of the incidents.

Third, suicide terrorist campaigns are directed toward a strategic objective. From Lebanon to Israel to Sri Lanka to Kashmir to Chechnya, the sponsors of every campaign have been terrorist groups trying to establish or maintain political self-determination by compelling a democratic power to withdraw from the territories they claim. Even al-Qaeda fits this pattern: although Saudi Arabia is not under American military occupation per se, a principal objective of Osama bin Laden is the expulsion of American troops from the Persian Gulf and the reduction of Washington’s power and influence in the region....

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Any ideas why?

Could be because those hot headed people there would kill 'em as soon as they started. The fools prefer to die on a suicide blast and get their 72 gay virgins. :laugh2:

Hunted down or shot done in the streets may not get 'em that paradise full of women victims that the savages desire to be able to rape for eternity. -Tyr

[tailfins]

Could be because those hot headed people there would kill 'em as soon as they started. The fools prefer to die on a suicide blast and get their 72 gay virgins. :laugh2:

Hunted down or shot done in the streets may not get 'em that paradise full of women victims that the savages desire to be able to rape for eternity. -Tyr

They're there, they just keep a low profile. The border with Paraguay is a headquarters for bootleg merchandise and is corrupt through-and-through. There would be an uproar if it were shut down because people couldn't get their counterfeit iPads.


Brazil is home to one of the largest Arab populations outside the Middle East, with most living in Sao Paulo and in Foz do Iguacu, a hotbed of smuggling and contraband in the so-called Tri-Border region near Argentina and Paraguay.
U.S. officials have been concerned for years that the Tri-Border region could be a fundraising center for Hezbollah and Hamas — although a recent U.S. State Department report said there was no confirmation "that these or other Islamic extremist groups had an operational presence in the region."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522078,00.html#ixzz2LkAgjV3T




http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522078,00.html

[gabosaurus]

This is pretty easy to answer. Radical Islamic groups would be no match for the drug cartels that control much of South America. Not to mention that the Muslims wouldn't want to pay the brides necessary to do business in Latin American countries.

[Robert A Whit]

We in this country watch left wing news people.

If you are able to, watch some international news.

I do not mean Al Jazera.

I mean DWTV from Berlin or RT that probably broadcasts in both England and elsewhere.

Assuming the left wing will tell you the truth about terrorists is a wild stretch.

[gabosaurus]

So what is your point?

[aboutime]

This is pretty easy to answer. Radical Islamic groups would be no match for the drug cartels that control much of South America. Not to mention that the Muslims wouldn't want to pay the brides necessary to do business in Latin American countries.
"BRIDES?" Gabby. You must be the spell checker at the M & M plant.

[jimnyc]

Easy, they fear the almighty chupacabra!

[Robert A Whit]

Does Gabby think the Muslims are still attacking the USA?

:link:

[Drummond]

We in this country watch left wing news people.

If you are able to, watch some international news.

I do not mean Al Jazera.

I mean DWTV from Berlin or RT that probably broadcasts in both England and elsewhere.

Assuming the left wing will tell you the truth about terrorists is a wild stretch.

Just to confirm that you're correct. Al Jazeera, available on just about every medium .. Freeview, Sky TV, Cable TV, I think FreeSat as well. DWTV ... Sky Satellite (and, of course, from European satellites like HotBird, which are also available to the UK). RT ... Freeview, Cable, Sky TV.

[RoccoR]

Tailfins, et al,

They are there, we just don't pay much attention.


Any ideas why?

(COMMENT)

Hezbollah, as an example, is believed to have several enclaves in Mexico, Central America and South America. Hezbollah seems to be involved in the drug trade and in trafficking to supplement their funding requirements and to establish a networking web with other criminal elements. They generally don't engage in terrorist activity where they fund raising to avoid unnecessary attention to themselves.


In September 2011, for instance, aspiring presidential candidate Michelle Bachman raised eyebrows when she spoke out against normalizing relations with Cuba due to the alleged presence of missile sites on the Island. Former US diplomat Roger Noriega and Foreign Policy’s Jose R. Cardenas have also voiced concerns about the influence of Islamic terrorist groups, co-authoring a paper for the American Enterprise Institute entitled The Mounting Hezbollah Threat in Latin America," which singles out Venezuela as the “principle safe haven” for the Lebanese group.

SOURCE: You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 5 posts or more.


If the relationship between drug trafficking groups and Islamic terrorists were to evolve into longer-term strategic partnerships, perhaps involving Islamic militants working with criminal networks to organize attacks,·this is more likely to take place in the Southern Cone than in Mexico or Venezuela. The tri-border area has long been a hotspot of support for Islamic terrorist groups, owing to a large Arab immigrant community there. US government researchers have identified both Hezbollah and al-Qaeda presence in the tri-border area, and believe the zone to be “highly conducive to the establishment of sleeper cells.” The weak rule of law in the region also makes it an ideal smuggling corridor for drugs and counterfeit goods, which attracts organized criminal groups. This is a dangerous mix, and could pose a major security threat to the hemisphere, especially as Argentina continues to develop into a haven for top drug traffickers.

SOURCE: You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 5 posts or more.


A report claimed to provide further evidence that Islamic militant groups are operating in Brazil. It is reported that at least twenty people affiliated with al Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shi’ite Muslim group, are operating in the country, using its infamous tri-border region with Paraguay and Argentina as a base from which to plan attacks, raise money and recruit followers. In the most detailed revelation, it was alleged that Khaled Hussein, a Lebanese man who has reportedly lived in Brazil since 1998. Is a central figure in al Qaeda’s propaganda operation and has coordinated extremists in seventeen countries.

SOURCE: You are only allowed to post URLs to other sites after you have made 5 posts or more.

There are several different flavors of Islamic Terrorists operating in Central and South America. Due to a series of US diplomatic and military failures, the US has to pay a high price for any of these countries to appear as an ally.

Most Respectfully,
R

[Marcus Aurelius]

This is pretty easy to answer. Radical Islamic groups would be no match for the drug cartels that control much of South America. Not to mention that the Muslims wouldn't want to pay the brides necessary to do business in Latin American countries.

Muslims do not pay their brides.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Easy, they fear the almighty chupacabra!

Now that Al Gore killed ManBearPig, he should concentrate on the Chupacabra.

I'm super-cereal.

[tailfins]

Muslims do not pay their brides.

That's not very nice of them. Wives deserve an allowance.

[mundame]

We have a more tolerant society so Muslims are targeting us first.

The more tolerant or weak a society, the quicker it can be taken over by a group that is not tolerant AT ALL.

That's how Muslims spread all over the world.

We are culturally weak and very divided and have major PC issues about tolerating everyone ---- we're prime for takeover by Islam, and so they're doing it.

[Little-Acorn]

Why don't we see Islamic attacks in Latin America?


http://www.conservapedia.com/2004_Madrid_Bombings

[revelarts]

did any one even consider the facts from the book i posted?
Madrid is in Spain not latin america whats the connection?
RoccoR yes there are suppose to be cells in a lot of countries. No attacks yet though, more someday maybe threats.
Selling drugs you say, well the CIA is on top of that to be sure. your links didn't work but one of your post mentions the American enterprise institute as a source. Well they claimed that we needed to invade iraq and hyped the WMD threat. they are not a level headed unbiased source when it comes to the middle east. frankly they want troops in about 7 countries.
and BTW Israeli created Hezbollah hasn't attacked us yet at all, at least not outside of Iraq to my knowledge.


" We have a more tolerant society so Muslims are targeting us first...."
The cultural attack is against us they say is because we are the biggest exporter of low living and Decadence. BUT again we've got military bases and troops in their lands. we are the GREAT Satan. why attack Brazil or Chile what good would that do?

[Drummond]

did any one even consider the facts from the book i posted?
Madrid is in Spain not latin america whats the connection?
RoccoR yes there are suppose to be cells in a lot of countries. No attacks yet though, more someday maybe threats.
Selling drugs you say, well the CIA is on top of that to be sure. your links didn't work but one of your post mentions the American enterprise institute as a source. Well they claimed that we needed to invade iraq and hyped the WMD threat. they are not a level headed unbiased source when it comes to the middle east. frankly they want troops in about 7 countries.
and BTW Israeli created Hezbollah hasn't attacked us yet at all, at least not outside of Iraq to my knowledge.


" We have a more tolerant society so Muslims are targeting us first...."
The cultural attack is against us they say is because we are the biggest exporter of low living and Decadence. BUT again we've got military bases and troops in their lands. we are the GREAT Satan. why attack Brazil or Chile what good would that do?

Some of this reads like an apologist essay on behalf of the 'culture' spawned by Islam.

Fact - Islamists are inclined to want to launch their attacks just because the West offers something different, un-Islamic. The arguments about 'low living and decadence', these are merely excuses to help define a so-called 'defence' for what their terrorists get up to ... as if, bombings, murder and maiming are somehow 'morally superior'.

Islam is a creed seeking total domination, and there are those within Islam who'll very happily bomb and slaughter their way to imposing their so-called 'moral superiority' on us all.

[tailfins]

Some of this reads like an apologist essay on behalf of the 'culture' spawned by Islam.

Fact - Islamists are inclined to want to launch their attacks just because the West offers something different, un-Islamic. The arguments about 'low living and decadence', these are merely excuses to help define a so-called 'defence' for what their terrorists get up to ... as if, bombings, murder and maiming are somehow 'morally superior'.

Islam is a creed seeking total domination, and there are those within Islam who'll very happily bomb and slaughter their way to imposing their so-called 'moral superiority' on us all.

I'm curious what divorce settlements look like for Islamic men in the UK? Are they anything like the divorces I saw when I was a kid here in the US: Men getting taken to "the cleaners" and living in poverty?

[jafar00]

Latin America is almost 100% Catholic

To Muslims and Islamist fundamentalists it is not worth it to try and convert people or set up operations.

They'd stand out too much.

So the catholic terrorists rule the roost over there?

Apparently they use power tools, not swords for their beheadings.
https://humanbeheading.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/goregrish-com-mexican-beheading.jpg?w=210

[Robert A Whit]

Just to confirm that you're correct. Al Jazeera, available on just about every medium .. Freeview, Sky TV, Cable TV, I think FreeSat as well. DWTV ... Sky Satellite (and, of course, from European satellites like HotBird, which are also available to the UK). RT ... Freeview, Cable, Sky TV.

I don't watch RT or DWTV all the time but when I watch both, I find that they stick to news.

American media spins all the time except on say traffic accidents. i catch some BBC too but the jury is out on them.

[tailfins]

So the catholic terrorists rule the roost over there?

Apparently they use power tools, not swords for their beheadings.
https://humanbeheading.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/goregrish-com-mexican-beheading.jpg?w=210


I would like to "cut off" a chain based on fallacy. Catholicism is barely a majority in Brazil, South America's largest country.

[jimnyc]

So the catholic terrorists rule the roost over there?

Apparently they use power tools, not swords for their beheadings.
https://humanbeheading.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/goregrish-com-mexican-beheading.jpg?w=210

Fwiw - and trust me on this, I saw the video in that picture. The guy shown has his head lopped off by the chainsaw while his buddy watches in horror. Then they stop the saw and use a regular 'ol knife on the guy on the left. These are Mexican and the killers are of the Mexican drug cartel. I could give a link to anyone interested, but I doubt anyone is.

[Voted4Reagan]

So the catholic terrorists rule the roost over there?

Apparently they use power tools, not swords for their beheadings.
https://humanbeheading.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/goregrish-com-mexican-beheading.jpg?w=210

no... but Catholicism is as firmly entrenched in Latin America as Islam is within the Middle East.

and name me one catholic terrorist group Jafar... I'll name 3 Islamic ones to start

Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda

your turn

[jimnyc]

Fwiw - and trust me on this, I saw the video in that picture. The guy shown has his head lopped off by the chainsaw while his buddy watches in horror. Then they stop the saw and use a regular 'ol knife on the guy on the left. These are Mexican and the killers are of the Mexican drug cartel. I could give a link to anyone interested, but I doubt anyone is.

The Sinaloa Cartel apparently.

VERY VERY VERY NSFW!!! I only post as proof, if you compare the video and pictures, that this is Mexican cartels and not Catholics.

http://www.bestgore.com/beheading/chainsaw-beheading-video-sinaloa-cartel-members-decapitated-mexico/

[tailfins]

no... but Catholicism is as firmly entrenched in Latin America as Islam is within the Middle East.

Thanks to Christian missionaries, that is no longer the case. It's on the decline in Latin America.


The Sinaloa Cartel apparently.

VERY VERY VERY NSFW!!! I only post as proof, if you compare the video and pictures, that this is Mexican cartels and not Catholics.



Very Australian, from New South Wales (NSW)?

[RoccoR]

revelarts, et al,

I could be wrong, but I question this.


did any one even consider the facts from the book i posted?
Madrid is in Spain not latin america whats the connection?
RoccoR yes there are suppose to be cells in a lot of countries. No attacks yet though, more someday maybe threats.
Selling drugs you say, well the CIA is on top of that to be sure. your links didn't work but one of your post mentions the American enterprise institute as a source. Well they claimed that we needed to invade iraq and hyped the WMD threat. they are not a level headed unbiased source when it comes to the middle east. frankly they want troops in about 7 countries.
and BTW Israeli created Hezbollah hasn't attacked us yet at all, at least not outside of Iraq to my knowledge.


" We have a more tolerant society so Muslims are targeting us first...."
The cultural attack is against us they say is because we are the biggest exporter of low living and Decadence. BUT again we've got military bases and troops in their lands. we are the GREAT Satan. why attack Brazil or Chile what good would that do?
(COMMENT)

I was under the impression that Hezbollah:



April 1983 suicide bombing at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut killed more than 60 people, including 17 Americans.

October 1983, a Hezbollah truck bombing killed 241 American marines at the multinational force barracks in Beirut.

June 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, during which a U.S. Navy Killed a US Navy SeaBee and threw his body on the Tarmac.

July 1994, a suicide bomber reportedly linked to Hezbollah detonated a bomb on a commuter plane in Colón, Panama, killing all 21 people aboard, including 3 U.S. citizens.

June 1996, truck bomb, Khobar Towers, Saudi Arabia, that killed 19 American servicemen.



Now there are other issues with Hezbollah, but these are just a few that are a bit obvious.

Iraq is another story. We could write a small encyclopedia on that. Do you have a specific question?

Most Respectfully,
R

[mundame]

Fwiw - and trust me on this, I saw the video in that picture. The guy shown has his head lopped off by the chainsaw while his buddy watches in horror. Then they stop the saw and use a regular 'ol knife on the guy on the left. These are Mexican and the killers are of the Mexican drug cartel. I could give a link to anyone interested, but I doubt anyone is.

A snuff film. They say snuff films are never, ever real..........

I don't believe that, however.

[jimnyc]

A snuff film. They say snuff films are never, ever real..........

I don't believe that, however.

This one is real alright, unless some serious CGI has went on!! I doubt the Mexican cartel is into digital editing. They kill to send messages all the time, and that's what this was, sending a message to someone who messed with them.

[Marcus Aurelius]

So the catholic terrorists rule the roost over there?

Apparently they use power tools, not swords for their beheadings.
https://humanbeheading.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/goregrish-com-mexican-beheading.jpg?w=210

WTF does a drug cartel beheading have to do with anything, dumb ass?

http://humanbeheading.wordpress.com/

Ever wanted to see what it looks like when some random mexican drug cartel workers have their heads removed with a chainsaw?

[Drummond]

I don't watch RT or DWTV all the time but when I watch both, I find that they stick to news.

American media spins all the time except on say traffic accidents. i catch some BBC too but the jury is out on them.

Trust me, the BBC is biased, and becoming more so.

The Libya civil war, with Gaddafi's overthrow ending it, was spun outrageously, with reports extremely biased. To them, it was simple. The rebels were freedom fighters, Gaddafi was a despot. The rebel win was a blow for 'freedom. NOT ONE WORD about whether terrorist groups might've been involved, but a daily diet of hardships and 'war crimes; meted out by the Gaddafi forces.

Then there's this ...

http://hurryupharry.org/2013/01/16/bbc-tones-down-morsis-support-for-terrorism-against-all-israelis/


The BBC article states: [emphasis added]

“In the clip from Palestinian broadcaster Al-Quds TV, Mr Morsi referred to Jewish settlers as “occupiers of Palestine” and “warmongers”.

He called for a “military resistance in Palestine against these Zionist criminals assaulting the land of Palestine and Palestinian”.”

Firstly, Al Quds TV is not merely a “Palestinian broadcaster” – it is a television station owned and run by Hamas. Of course this is not the first time (http://bbcwatch.org/2012/12/05/bbc-promotion-of-the-targeting-the-media-myth/) that the BBC has elected to conceal from its audiences (http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/18/bbc-jerusalem-bureau-leads-the-charge-in-false-accusations-of-targeting-journalists/) the terror connections of Al Quds TV and its sister organization Al Aqsa TV (http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/article/18131).

Secondly, Morsi makes no reference whatsoever to “Jewish settlers” in his antisemitic, terror-glorifying rant: that phrase is an invention by the BBC ...

See also -

http://www.bbcwatch.co.uk/news.html

Finally ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349506/Left-wing-bias-Its-written-BBCs-DNA-says-Peter-Sissons.html

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

no... but Catholicism is as firmly entrenched in Latin America as Islam is within the Middle East.

and name me one catholic terrorist group Jafar... I'll name 3 Islamic ones to start

Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda

your turn

Jahil running dog will now pull out his prayer rug and ask Allah to strike you down. You putrid little heathen, infidel son of a dog..;)--Tyr

[Drummond]

I'm curious what divorce settlements look like for Islamic men in the UK? Are they anything like the divorces I saw when I was a kid here in the US: Men getting taken to "the cleaners" and living in poverty?

There's no easy answer to this. It can be a minefield ! Some Islamic marriages aren't recognised in British law. And Islam has a form of divorce we don't recognise, either.

Then there's THIS ...

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9838781.Muslim_leader_loses_Sharia_law_fight_over_ divorce_settlement/


A MUSLIM leader who ignored a divorce judge’s order to pay his ex-wife £60,000 maintenance has been told by the Appeal Court that he cannot rely on Muslim tradition to absolve him of his financial responsibilities.

In a test case clash of Muslim and UK matrimonial law, Lord Justice Ward ruled that a belief that maintenance payments to spouses are ‘illegitimate or illegal according to Islamic culture’ is no defence to orders made in English divorce courts. Dr Zaid Al-Saffar, a consultant rheumatologist at Scarborough Hospital and the head of the town’s Islamic society, married academic Hanan Al-Saffar in April 2000. They had two children before splitting in 2008.

The couple’s row over finances came before District Judge Alan Jones at the County Court, Blackburn, where Mrs Al-Saffar, who is in her 30s, now lives, in May 2008.

In traditional Muslim societies there is often no expectation that ex-husbands pay maintenance to ex-wives. Judge Jones however refused to accept this view and ordered Dr Al-Saffar to pay £60,000 in maintenance for her contribution to the marriage.

There are Muslims who do things the British way, and just accept our court rulings. Such rulings don't recognise Islamic practise as relevant to the settlement judgment. Alternatively .. there are Muslims who try to bypass the British system altogether, and just go through an - unofficially convened - Sharia court. Unfortunately for them, any judgments reached not fully in accordance with British law, aren't recognised as legal, so if reason materialises for such a settlement to be reviewed in any context by a British court, trouble starts ...

To answer you directly, in our system, there are cases where men are, as you say, 'taken to the cleaners'. British courts won't differentiate between Muslim and non-Muslim couples, so it's all down to the merits of the case.

[jafar00]

There's no easy answer to this. It can be a minefield ! Some Islamic marriages aren't recognised in British law. And Islam has a form of divorce we don't recognise, either.

Then there's THIS ...

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9838781.Muslim_leader_loses_Sharia_law_fight_over_ divorce_settlement/



There are Muslims who do things the British way, and just accept our court rulings. Such rulings don't recognise Islamic practise as relevant to the settlement judgment. Alternatively .. there are Muslims who try to bypass the British system altogether, and just go through an - unofficially convened - Sharia court. Unfortunately for them, any judgments reached not fully in accordance with British law, aren't recognised as legal, so if reason materialises for such a settlement to be reviewed in any context by a British court, trouble starts ...

To answer you directly, in our system, there are cases where men are, as you say, 'taken to the cleaners'. British courts won't differentiate between Muslim and non-Muslim couples, so it's all down to the merits of the case.

It makes my blood boil when I see things like..


a belief that maintenance payments to spouses are ‘illegitimate or illegal according to Islamic culture’

That is complete BS. It is at the very least, common knowledge to Muslims that the responsibility for child maintenance falls upon the father.

At it's most basic in the Qur'aan...

..and their maintenance and their clothing must be-- borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity;(2:233)

Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable.(65:5)

It also annoys me when people with an anti Islamic agenda try to use things they know nothing about to try and paint Islam in a bad light.

To coin a phrase... "And Allah knows best" :)

[jafar00]

no... but Catholicism is as firmly entrenched in Latin America as Islam is within the Middle East.

and name me one catholic terrorist group Jafar... I'll name 3 Islamic ones to start

Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda

your turn

Hezbollah and Hamas are political parties. If you want to name them as terrorists, I also name the entire US and UK governments as terrorists.

Al Qaeda is just like the Mexican cartels. Greed and power drive both. Not religion. However, in the same way as you say Al Qaeda or the Taliban are "Islamic", I can also name Mexican cartels like La Familia Michoacana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Familia_Michoacana) as Christian Terrorists because they have lopped off heads with the same misguided "religious" fervour as Al Qaeda. The LRA are an even worse "Christian" organisation.

[tailfins]

It makes my blood boil when I see things like..



That is complete BS. It is at the very least, common knowledge to Muslims that the responsibility for child maintenance falls upon the father.

At it's most basic in the Qur'aan...

..and their maintenance and their clothing must be-- borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity;(2:233)

Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable.(65:5)

It also annoys me when people with an anti Islamic agenda try to use things they know nothing about to try and paint Islam in a bad light.

To coin a phrase... "And Allah knows best" :)

You may have noticed my signature. As a kid I saw too many family members ruined in "family court" and vowed never to let such a thing happen to me. I think I have succeeded. I spoke Portuguese before I met my wife and made clear exactly what I was looking for. She has delivered exactly as promised. My only struggle is overcoming her mother's hard core influence. It took me five years to get her to drive as her mother kept pushing it's not a woman's place to drive. I rest easy knowing when the time comes my wife will stay by by side even when bed ridden and plan an honorable burial.

My wife says Brazilian chauvinism is based on control, but mine is based on laziness. She was shocked when I wanted her to drive. I asked her if she saw the word "chauffeur" stamped on my forehead.

Her mother also taught her women are not supposed to be smart. However, when I refused to buy her Farmville cash, she learned how to use a debugger called Charles to hack Farmville, substituting mansions for hay bales.

[Drummond]

It makes my blood boil when I see things like..



That is complete BS. It is at the very least, common knowledge to Muslims that the responsibility for child maintenance falls upon the father.

At it's most basic in the Qur'aan...

..and their maintenance and their clothing must be-- borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity;(2:233)

Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable.(65:5)

It also annoys me when people with an anti Islamic agenda try to use things they know nothing about to try and paint Islam in a bad light.

To coin a phrase... "And Allah knows best" :)

Well, Jafar, recheck the Lancashire Telegraph link. You'll see from the story that the man contesting the maintenance order awarded, to save himself the commitment to pay the £60,000 maintenance award, was - I quote - 'A MUSLIM LEADER'.

So, Jafar, we have a Muslim LEADER who was defying his own religion ... on the basis THAT MUSLIM TRADITION BACKED HIS STANCE !!

See for yourself that this formed this MUSLIM LEADER'S DEFENCE IN COURT !!

Let me quote from the link I've provided ...


In a test case clash of Muslim and UK matrimonial law, Lord Justice Ward ruled that a belief that maintenance payments to spouses are ‘illegitimate or illegal according to Islamic culture’ is no defence to orders made in English divorce courts. Dr Zaid Al-Saffar, a consultant rheumatologist at Scarborough Hospital and the head of the town’s Islamic society, married academic Hanan Al-Saffar in April 2000. They had two children before splitting in 2008.

The couple’s row over finances came before District Judge Alan Jones at the County Court, Blackburn, where Mrs Al-Saffar, who is in her 30s, now lives, in May 2008.

In traditional Muslim societies there is often no expectation that ex-husbands pay maintenance to ex-wives.

... whoops .... !! ....

[Drummond]

Hezbollah and Hamas are political parties. If you want to name them as terrorists, I also name the entire US and UK governments as terrorists.

Al Qaeda is just like the Mexican cartels. Greed and power drive both. Not religion. However, in the same way as you say Al Qaeda or the Taliban are "Islamic", I can also name Mexican cartels like La Familia Michoacana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Familia_Michoacana) as Christian Terrorists because they have lopped off heads with the same misguided "religious" fervour as Al Qaeda. The LRA are an even worse "Christian" organisation.

Hamas TURNED political, just as another way of furthering its ongoing TERRORIST agenda. For chapter and verse on that agenda, Jafar, I ask you again to refer to the Hamas Charter. A Charter they've neither renounced nor even amended.

As for 'naming the US and UK Governments as terrorists' .. well, honestly, Jafar, can you find me a Muslim TERRORIST that would claim anything else .. in between firing rockets at Israel, no doubt ...

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jafar00 http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=620063#post620063)
It makes my blood boil when I see things like..



That is complete BS. It is at the very least, common knowledge to Muslims that the responsibility for child maintenance falls upon the father.

At it's most basic in the Qur'aan...

..and their maintenance and their clothing must be-- borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity;(2:233)

Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable.(65:5)

It also annoys me when people with an anti Islamic agenda try to use things they know nothing about to try and paint Islam in a bad light.

To coin a phrase... "And Allah knows best" :)



Well, Jafar, recheck the Lancashire Telegraph link. You'll see from the story that the man contesting the maintenance order awarded, to save himself the commitment to pay the £60,000 maintenance award, was - I quote - 'A MUSLIM LEADER'.

So, Jafar, we have a Muslim LEADER who was defying his own religion ... on the basis THAT MUSLIM TRADITION BACKED HIS STANCE !!

See for yourself that this formed this MUSLIM LEADER'S DEFENCE IN COURT !!

Let me quote from the link I've provided ...

In a test case clash of Muslim and UK matrimonial law, Lord Justice Ward ruled that a belief that maintenance payments to spouses are ‘illegitimate or illegal according to Islamic culture’ is no defence to orders made in English divorce courts. Dr Zaid Al-Saffar, a consultant rheumatologist at Scarborough Hospital and the head of the town’s Islamic society, married academic Hanan Al-Saffar in April 2000. They had two children before splitting in 2008.

The couple’s row over finances came before District Judge Alan Jones at the County Court, Blackburn, where Mrs Al-Saffar, who is in her 30s, now lives, in May 2008.

In traditional Muslim societies there is often no expectation that ex-husbands pay maintenance to ex-wives.


... whoops .... !! ....

Jahil will now claim the guy isn't 'really' Muslim'.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Jahil will now claim the guy isn't 'really' Muslim'.

Only Jahil running dog can tell who is and who isn't muslim. Anybody we can prove is a piece of shat Jahil declares is not muslim.
A damn neat trick if you can pull it off. Jahil can not. That is why the boy put me on ignore. Too much truth hitting his azz on a daily basis.-:laugh:-Tyr

[logroller]

It makes my blood boil when I see things like..



That is complete BS. It is at the very least, common knowledge to Muslims that the responsibility for child maintenance falls upon the father.

At it's most basic in the Qur'aan...

..and their maintenance and their clothing must be-- borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity;(2:233)

Let the women live (in 'iddat) in the same style as ye live, according to your means: Annoy them not, so as to restrict them. And if they carry (life in their wombs), then spend (your substance) on them until they deliver their burden: and if they suckle your (offspring), give them their recompense: and take mutual counsel together, according to what is just and reasonable.(65:5)

It also annoys me when people with an anti Islamic agenda try to use things they know nothing about to try and paint Islam in a bad light.

To coin a phrase... "And Allah knows best" :)
After reading the scripture you presented, it sounds to me like child support, not spousal support. And so far as what Islamic cultures believe in regards to spousal support, the authority of the state would still apply.
In Islam obedience to the law of the land is a religious duty. The Qur'an commands Muslims to remain faithful to not only Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (saw), but also the authority they live under:

O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey His Messenger and those who are in authority over you (Ch.4: V.60).


http://www.islamicfaq.org/islam/index.html

[Drummond]

http://www.islamicfaq.org/islam/index.html

Most interesting. Is this an Islam-friendly site, then ?

I have to think it is. Because, you see, the reality is considerably different.

The REALITY is that Islam is a massively arrogant creed, its most loyal adherents dedicated to the position that Sharia Law not only deserves to override civil law where that law stands in defiance of it, but that efforts must be made to bring that state of affairs into being !!

Note the following:

http://www.radicalislam.org/analysis/anjem-choudary-steps-islamic-caliphate

Enjoy the stench of full-blooded Islamic activism.


Anjem Choudary (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html) is among the most high-profile jihadists in the United Kingdom. He has expressed admiration for Osama Bin Laden, the 9/11 hijackers and the bombers that struck London on July 7, 2005. He is a co-founder of al-Muhajiroun, a group supportive of Al-Qaeda. After it disbanded, Choudary then led Islam4UK until it was banned by the British government. He is part of a campaign (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html) that recently declared parts of London as “Sharia Zones.” Anjem describes himself as a “Lecturer in Shari’ah Law and Manager of the Shari’ah Court of the UK.”

Allah (SWT) says in the Qur’an (the inimitable word of Allah) that the Messenger Muhammad was sent as a mercy for mankind to take us out of the darkness of man-made law in the beauty and justice of Islam. Indeed the Messenger Muhammad (saw) was given certain things no prophet was ever given before, such as that he was sent for the whole of mankind whereas all previous prophets were sent specifically to their own people.

In light of this fact the Messenger Muhammad -- whose sayings, actions and consent are revelation in addition to the Qur’an -- made many statements regarding how Islam will one day dominate the whole world, such as that Allah (SWT) showed him the east and the west and the authority of the Ummah (Muslims) was over the whole of it, i.e. over the whole world including the USA, Russia, China, India etc. This is something Muslims must believe in and try to realize through their daw’ah( propagation of Islam) and through the establishment of the Khilafah (the Islamic State) whose foreign policy will be jihad to remove all obstacles in the way of the implementation of Islam (i.e. the sharia) everywhere. I've really got to say, Logroller, that you have a 'bit of a problem' squaring this with the argument that your Islam-friendly link tries to push. Wouldn't you say ?

Now, you might like to have a go at characterising this Choudary trash as some sort of 'fringe nutter' who's thousands of miles away from you, easily ignored, easily dismissable. Good luck with that ... because Choudary is highly active not only in the UK, but wherever he can make his voice heard. Choudary may be given to occasional evasiveness, most certainly is known to be garrulous ... but Choudary NEVER misrepresents the real nature of the sheer arrogance of Islam.

He is clear, always .. he puts Sharia Law as way above any other laws, he wishes to see Sharia Law imposed EVERYWHERE, and he doesn't care who knows it.

... For example ... he mentions this view to Sean Hannity ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvcyG9yaV7M

.. and very notably, here ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddA_VjIwzn4

... in which, Choudary considers that any Muslims not wanting implementation of Sharia Law are representative of a 'decline' of Muslim standards.

Choudary speaks here, as you'll see, of his plans to have Muslims protest OUTSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE.

But if you're inclined to see Choudary as a 'one man band' who's unrepresentative of Islam, consider that his 'Islam4uk' group was once considered a MAINSTREAM Muslim pressure group in the UK. It was only officially banned once that group planned a public protest in the streets of Wootton Bassett, a British town which regularly paid public tribute to returning dead British soldiers, whose bodies were being 'repatriated' following military service in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This video is especially damning. Watch THIS and tell me that these 'aren't Muslims' ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN6CHtGGo4g

... more ... ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qt_Q06wI8o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2VkIu8TL_I

In that last one, we have further confirmation that the 'non-Islamic' Choudary is A SHARIA LAW JUDGE. IF HE LACKS RESPECT AND STANDING AMONGST MUSLIMS, IF HE FAILS TO REPRESENT ISLAM IN THE WAY HE THINKS AND JUDGES, KINDLY EXPLAIN: HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE ???

[aboutime]

Only Jahil running dog can tell who is and who isn't muslim. Anybody we can prove is a piece of shat Jahil declares is not muslim.
A damn neat trick if you can pull it off. Jahil can not. That is why the boy put me on ignore. Too much truth hitting his azz on a daily basis.-:laugh:-Tyr

Tyr. I'm on Ignore too! So. Like you. I can say whatever I like...as long as I know, and can prove it is Truth first.

Doesn't matter who has us on ignore. They still cannot, and will never be able to change the Truth.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr. I'm on Ignore too! So. Like you. I can say whatever I like...as long as I know, and can prove it is Truth first.

Doesn't matter who has us on ignore. They still cannot, and will never be able to change the Truth.

The guy likes to ignore that which he can not refute. A neat trick if you can pull it off. I like to remind all here that he is pulling that trick to completely avoid facing the truth and that is the mark of a coward and a disreputable person that should be viewed and treated accordingly.

[jafar00]

Drummond, you keep mentioning the bad antics of rejects from the worst Pakistan has to offer. The thing is I would agree with you about anyone who waltzes around with such attitudes and actions born from a Taliban influence. You are preaching to the converted.

[aboutime]

The guy likes to ignore that which he can not refute. A neat trick if you can pull it off. I like to remind all here that he is pulling that trick to completely avoid facing the truth and that is the mark of a coward and a disreputable person that should be viewed and treated accordingly.


Exactly. And also a reminder that tells me why I fought so much to avoid using the Ignore feature, as requested by admin.

But then. The mark of a coward is much stronger when the Ignore feature allows anyone to avoid confrontations with TRUTH.

[Drummond]

Drummond, you keep mentioning the bad antics of rejects from the worst Pakistan has to offer. The thing is I would agree with you about anyone who waltzes around with such attitudes and actions born from a Taliban influence. You are preaching to the converted.

I've mentioned many 'bad antics' during my time on this forum. I've mentioned Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, various instances of what Muslims do in the UK. Are they ALL from Pakistan ??

Where do you get the nerve from to tell me I'm 'preaching to the converted'. That is VERY far from the truth. In the past couple of days, you proved that you not only support Hamas, but terrorist attacks they launch, as well. You EVEN suggested that the US supplies Hamas with missiles, and in the process, turns its back on Israel, an ally !!!

You support terrorism. You support those who are, you support their intentions to attack, and to kill. This you have now proved beyond doubt.

[RoccoR]

et al,

Where are we going with this?

v/r
R

[logroller]

Most interesting. Is this an Islam-friendly site, then ?

I have to think it is. Because, you see, the reality is considerably different.

The REALITY is that Islam is a massively arrogant creed, its most loyal adherents dedicated to the position that Sharia Law not only deserves to override civil law where that law stands in defiance of it, but that efforts must be made to bring that state of affairs into being !!

Note the following:

http://www.radicalislam.org/analysis/anjem-choudary-steps-islamic-caliphate

Enjoy the stench of full-blooded Islamic activism.

I've really got to say, Logroller, that you have a 'bit of a problem' squaring this with the argument that your Islam-friendly link tries to push. Wouldn't you say ?

Now, you might like to have a go at characterising this Choudary trash as some sort of 'fringe nutter' who's thousands of miles away from you, easily ignored, easily dismissable. Good luck with that ... because Choudary is highly active not only in the UK, but wherever he can make his voice heard. Choudary may be given to occasional evasiveness, most certainly is known to be garrulous ... but Choudary NEVER misrepresents the real nature of the sheer arrogance of Islam.

He is clear, always .. he puts Sharia Law as way above any other laws, he wishes to see Sharia Law imposed EVERYWHERE, and he doesn't care who knows it.

... For example ... he mentions this view to Sean Hannity ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvcyG9yaV7M

.. and very notably, here ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddA_VjIwzn4

... in which, Choudary considers that any Muslims not wanting implementation of Sharia Law are representative of a 'decline' of Muslim standards.

Choudary speaks here, as you'll see, of his plans to have Muslims protest OUTSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE.

But if you're inclined to see Choudary as a 'one man band' who's unrepresentative of Islam, consider that his 'Islam4uk' group was once considered a MAINSTREAM Muslim pressure group in the UK. It was only officially banned once that group planned a public protest in the streets of Wootton Bassett, a British town which regularly paid public tribute to returning dead British soldiers, whose bodies were being 'repatriated' following military service in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This video is especially damning. Watch THIS and tell me that these 'aren't Muslims' ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN6CHtGGo4g

... more ... ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qt_Q06wI8o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2VkIu8TL_I

In that last one, we have further confirmation that the 'non-Islamic' Choudary is A SHARIA LAW JUDGE. IF HE LACKS RESPECT AND STANDING AMONGST MUSLIMS, IF HE FAILS TO REPRESENT ISLAM IN THE WAY HE THINKS AND JUDGES, KINDLY EXPLAIN: HOW IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE ???

Did you bother to check that alislam.org, the source, was indeed radical before quoting an obviously anti-Islamic site? Did you know that they, the Ahmadiyya, categorically reject terrorism and believe that jihad of the sword has no place in the modern world? Of course you didn't. You offer chaudary... :rolleyes: This sect is even ridiculed and attacked violently by the same radicalism you devote an exhaustive amount of time studying and reporting...yet strangely, know nothing of his peaceful sect...hmmmmm. Why can't you support a group of Islamic people who stand up against the radicals in Islam? Don't you want peace? Or Let me guess, they're not really Muslim.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Did you bother to check that alislam.org, the source, was indeed radical before quoting an obviously anti-Islamic site? Did you know that they, the Ahmadiyya, categorically reject terrorism and believe that jihad of the sword has no place in the modern world? Of course you didn't. You offer chaudary... :rolleyes: This sect is even ridiculed and attacked violently by the same radicalism you devote an exhaustive amount of time studying and reporting...yet strangely, know nothing of his peaceful sect...hmmmmm. Why can't you support a group of Islamic people who stand up against the radicals in Islam? Don't you want peace? Or Let me guess, they're not really Muslim.

Any links to back up those claims???
Especially want to see your proof that Chaundry's sect is attacked violently by other muslims!!!

[logroller]

Any links to back up those claims???
Especially want to see your proof that Chaundry's sect is attacked violently by other muslims!!!
Not chaundry. Drummond spoke of him, not I. I put forth a quote from the Koran and Drummond dismissed the source as pro-Islam. Which is funny, because Sunni and Shia alike reject the Ahmadiyya muslim community as kafir. The link I sourced previously hails to here: www.alislam.org

[Marcus Aurelius]

Hezbollah and Hamas are political parties. If you want to name them as terrorists, I also name the entire US and UK governments as terrorists.

Al Qaeda is just like the Mexican cartels. Greed and power drive both. Not religion. However, in the same way as you say Al Qaeda or the Taliban are "Islamic", I can also name Mexican cartels like La Familia Michoacana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Familia_Michoacana) as Christian Terrorists because they have lopped off heads with the same misguided "religious" fervour as Al Qaeda. The LRA are an even worse "Christian" organisation.

I challenge to you show me one single solitary violent act from La Familia Michoacana where the perpetrator yelled the equivalent of 'ALLAH AKBAR!' as he committed the act.

Dumb ass.

[aboutime]

I challenge to you show me one single solitary violent act from La Familia Michoacana where the perpetrator yelled the equivalent of 'ALLAH AKBAR!' as he committed the act.

Dumb ass.


Marcus. It was only a matter of time until jafar actually ran out of his never-ending excuses, and began to disclose his real hatred for The U.S.A. and the U.K.

Give jafar the chance here, and just imagine how he yells "ALLAH AKBAR!" as he finishes ever statement he makes here on DP.

Whenever they run out of their constant Lies...from the Hatred Playbook of Brainwashed Ignorance. We can all count on jafar, and others to resort to their final DEATH CRY as their Empty Brain's Explode...with the Bomb Vest. 4615

[Drummond]

Did you bother to check that alislam.org, the source, was indeed radical before quoting an obviously anti-Islamic site? Did you know that they, the Ahmadiyya, categorically reject terrorism and believe that jihad of the sword has no place in the modern world? Of course you didn't. You offer chaudary... :rolleyes: This sect is even ridiculed and attacked violently by the same radicalism you devote an exhaustive amount of time studying and reporting...yet strangely, know nothing of his peaceful sect...hmmmmm. Why can't you support a group of Islamic people who stand up against the radicals in Islam? Don't you want peace? Or Let me guess, they're not really Muslim.

I am unaware that Choudary's people have ever been attacked by other Muslims, so, like Tyr, I want you to back up your assertion.

Besides, it's ludicrous. Choudary's people went around putting up posters declaring Walthamstow, in east London, a 'Shariah zone'. How come, if they had any notable opposition, they were ever able to go that far ?

More ridiculous still, Choudary sits as a judge in a Sharia court !! How does he manage THAT without opposition mounted to make his position untenable ? How, instead, does he manage to sustain the authority of a judge and have those he judges respect his decisions ??

As for the Ahmadiyya .. they are a minority sect who get widespread opposition from other Muslims. They are not considered TRUE Muslims, are they, by most other Muslims.

See ...

http://www.thepersecution.org/world/indonesia/11/12/jp19.html


Ahmadiyah is considered by mainstream Muslims as heretical. Ahmadiyah communities across the country have been persecuted by their fellow Muslims, and in some severe instances have had members seriously injured or killed..
http://www.thepersecution.org/world/indonesia/11/12/jp10.html


As of September this year, at least 26 regencies and municipalities have passed bylaws restricting or banning the Ahmadiyah sect, 11 of them in West Java alone, according to a list from the National Commission on Violence Against Women.

The local regulations justify other citizens and authorities into closing down Ahmadi mosques, forcing them out of their homes, or ordering them to denounce Islam if they insist on their beliefs. Unlike mainstream Muslims, the Ahmadiyah do not believe that Muhammad is the last prophet, saying they differentiate between prophets and messengers.
.

[logroller]

I am unaware that Choudary's people have ever been attacked by other Muslims, so, like Tyr, I want you to back up your assertion.

Besides, it's ludicrous. Choudary's people went around putting up posters declaring Walthamstow, in east London, a 'Shariah zone'. How come, if they had any notable opposition, they were ever able to go that far ?

More ridiculous still, Choudary sits as a judge in a Sharia court !! How does he manage THAT without opposition mounted to make his position untenable ? How, instead, does he manage to sustain the authority of a judge and have those he judges respect his decisions ??

As for the Ahmadiyya .. they are a minority sect who get widespread opposition from other Muslims. They are not considered TRUE Muslims, are they, by most other Muslims.

See ...

http://www.thepersecution.org/world/indonesia/11/12/jp19.html

.
http://www.thepersecution.org/world/indonesia/11/12/jp10.html

.
well, I recall you ridiculing jafar for saying some aren't "true Muslims", yet here you parrot much the same response.

Christianity was a minority sect of Judaism, rejected and persecuted for much the same reasons; but its undisputed that Jesus Christ and the early disciples were Jewish. Iirc, It wasnt until after the resurrection that Jesus even instructed His teachings be spread to the Gentiles. So when does a sect become its own religion?

[gabosaurus]

As always, straying from the original topic. :rolleyes:

[logroller]

Mormons believe John smith to be a prophet; so are Mormons not Christian?