Soldier versus Police Officer

[jimnyc]

Police brutality? Or perhaps a soldier biting off more than he can chew with a Marine?

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[bingster]

The kid's a royal punk, but maybe the officer could have tried at least once to diffuse the situation before the smack to the head. I'm not saying the kid didn't deserve it. I just expect more professionalism from our men in blue.

[jimnyc]

The kid's a royal punk, but maybe the officer could have tried at least once to diffuse the situation before the smack to the head. I'm not saying the kid didn't deserve it. I just expect more professionalism from our men in blue.

I sort of agree, tough situation. But it pays NOT to be an asshole to the police, especially one that is a former US Marine. You start with "Know who you're talking to - US soldier" - you might have a soldier reply back to you!~

[taft2012]

you might have a soldier reply back to you!~

...or just a cop who can savagely pwn you. lol. :clap:

[cadet]

Ok, just looking over the idiots who don't know how to be civil, I'm sure if i beat the crap out of a couple of punks trying to rob me and the police were 45 min late, i'd be pissed too.

[jimnyc]

Ok, just looking over the idiots who don't know how to be civil, I'm sure if i beat the crap out of a couple of punks trying to rob me and the police were 45 min late, i'd be pissed too.

He's got a right to be upset about the timing. But when the cop moved closer to speak to him, he puffed out his chest and told the cop to make sure he knows who he is talking to, a US soldier. It shouldn't matter if the cop was talking to a soldier or an old lady - neither should try to intimidate an officer. Not defending either side, but maybe the police were involved in a call about a robbery or shooting, and got to the next level call as soon as they could.

Anyway, my question is, did the "puffing" and comments deserve the harsh response from the police? Personally, I think it's good to see a Marine put him in his place. I just don't think as far as the courts are concerned, that he needed to take it as far as he did.

As a Marine - excellent response
As a Police Officer - abuse?

I'm honestly unsure and have mixed feelings. I can't wait for my buddy, Rev, to get here though! :beer:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I sort of agree, tough situation. But it pays NOT to be an asshole to the police, especially one that is a former US Marine. You start with "Know who you're talking to - US soldier" - you might have a soldier reply back to you!~

I saw nothing soldier like from the kid that got knocked down. That being said, the police officer had no legal right to hit a person that is not threatening that officer. As much as I'd like to side with the officer I can not in this case. Not unless the victim made a threatening move that was not on the video. Now the victim should have no been that mouthy and presenting himself as some badass soldier, obviously he was not. After all his roommate had beat his ass and thrown him out. Both parties were in the wrong IMHO. THE KID FOR HIS ATTITUDE AND THE OFFICER FOR STRIKING HIM. Pains me to have to say that because the kid needed an attitude adjustment but by law it was not right for the cop to just hit him. I once told a cop that next time he hits my younger brother with his nightstick will be his last!! I meant it and he did not try to arrest me on any charge because he knew he had hit my younger brother for no just cause. He never did such again to anybody that I ever heard about. I was 26 back then and didnt give a flying crap about what the hell happened to me. I just knew to take a stand and do or die trying..
A good cop is solid gold in my book , all others f-them feed 'em fishheads..-Tyr

[Kathianne]

Ok, just looking over the idiots who don't know how to be civil, I'm sure if i beat the crap out of a couple of punks trying to rob me and the police were 45 min late, i'd be pissed too.

I agree. The police in this case seemed to be more concerned with this punk's attitude than with the complaint. His room mates may have had a case, but that never came to be shown. Why? The police got pissed at the complainant.

[cadet]

I agree. The police in this case seemed to be more concerned with this punk's attitude than with the complaint. His room mates may have had a case, but that never came to be shown. Why? The police got pissed at the complainant.

Too many policemen are wondering around with a "shoot first ask questions later" attitude. I thought training was to handle a situation properly?
Why is it that when i'm pulled over for speeding the cop has his hand on his gun? Why is it that cops are shooting at cars that look like the ex-cops car? How many people have been SHOT DEAD for having a toy gun?

My opinion, we need a psychological test to make sure the cops are doing their job to protect people and not to shoot the bad guy and be the hero.



I'm not saying the kid in the video didn't deserve to be hit, but the cop should have handled it better. Makes me worried that if i had a kid and he was running around with a squirt gun, he might be shot by some dumbass cop who wanted to play hero.

[Kathianne]

Too many policemen are wondering around with a "shoot first ask questions later" attitude. I thought training was to handle a situation properly?
Why is it that when i'm pulled over for speeding the cop has his hand on his gun? Why is it that cops are shooting at cars that look like the ex-cops car? How many people have been SHOT DEAD for having a toy gun?

My opinion, we need a psychological test to make sure the cops are doing their job to protect people and not to shoot the bad guy and be the hero.



I'm not saying the kid in the video didn't deserve to be hit, but the cop should have handled it better. Makes me worried that if i had a kid and he was running around with a squirt gun, he might be shot by some dumbass cop who wanted to play hero.

The police do run pretty rigorous psych exams for new hire potentials, many are weeded out at this stage, though it doesn't catch all. Much of the time, the first year does catch them, at least in good departments.

[aboutime]

Too many policemen are wondering around with a "shoot first ask questions later" attitude. I thought training was to handle a situation properly?
Why is it that when i'm pulled over for speeding the cop has his hand on his gun? Why is it that cops are shooting at cars that look like the ex-cops car? How many people have been SHOT DEAD for having a toy gun?

My opinion, we need a psychological test to make sure the cops are doing their job to protect people and not to shoot the bad guy and be the hero.



I'm not saying the kid in the video didn't deserve to be hit, but the cop should have handled it better. Makes me worried that if i had a kid and he was running around with a squirt gun, he might be shot by some dumbass cop who wanted to play hero.


cadet. After reading your diatribe above. One might think it is YOU who might be needing the psych testing. If you dislike, or distrust police officers as much as your words tend to show.
I can't help but wonder what kind of confrontations, or violations you may have had...to carry such a CHIP on your shoulder.

[cadet]

cadet. After reading your diatribe above. One might think it is YOU who might be needing the psych testing. If you dislike, or distrust police officers as much as your words tend to show.
I can't help but wonder what kind of confrontations, or violations you may have had...to carry such a CHIP on your shoulder.

I do, good job sherlock. As far as i'm concerned, cops are corrupt to the heart. Too many are gun slingers who want to be the hero.

And I've had few, the cops in my neighborhood are all stuck up and snobby. And jack happens back home. Yet they seem to think moms with kids crying in the back are gonna pull a gun on them for how they act.

They don't LOOK at the situation, they just want to shoot! No tact.

[cadet]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083089/Why-shoot-the-head-Father-demands-know-police-shot-dead-son-15-took-pellet-gun-school.html#axzz2KYGTMjJ0


The shooting, at Cummings Middle School in Brownsville, Texas, also raised questions about whether pellet guns should be marked in a way that would easily distinguish them from real handguns.Rodriguez defended his officers, saying the younger Gonzalez pointed the pellet gun at police and repeatedly defied their commands to put it on the floor.
He said the boy was shot twice in the torso. When asked about the parents' suggestion that there had been a shot to the back of the head, Rodriguez said: 'It's a laceration as a result of the fall'.The Valley Morning Star newspaper reviewed the report and confirmed the preliminary finding that the boy died of two gunshot wounds, one to the chest and one to the abdomen and that a laceration to the right side of the head was consistent with a fall.
Authorities also released a 911 recording from Cummings Middle School.
The assistant principal on the phone first is heard saying a student in the hall has a gun, then reports that he is drawing the weapon and finally that he is running down the hall.
On the recording, police can be heard yelling: 'Put the gun down! Put it on the floor!'
In the background, someone else yells: 'He's saying that he is willing to die.'
Before police arrived, school administrators had urged Jaime to give up the gun. When officers got to the school, the boy was waiting for them.
Moments before he was killed, Jaime began to run down a hallway, but again faced officers.
Police fired down the hallway - a distance that made a stun gun or other methods impractical, Rodriguez said.
If the situation had involved hostages or a gunman barricaded in a room, police might have tried negotiations. But instead, Rodriguez stressed, this was an armed student roaming the halls of a school.

[aboutime]

I do, good job sherlock. As far as i'm concerned, cops are corrupt to the heart. Too many are gun slingers who want to be the hero.

And I've had few, the cops in my neighborhood are all stuck up and snobby. And jack happens back home. Yet they seem to think moms with kids crying in the back are gonna pull a gun on them for how they act.

They don't LOOK at the situation, they just want to shoot! No tact.


Awwww. Poor baby. You just said all anyone needs to know. Thank you.

p.s. wonder what those cops in your neighborhood would SAY ABOUT YOU?

[cadet]

Awwww. Poor baby. You just said all anyone needs to know. Thank you.

p.s. wonder what those cops in your neighborhood would SAY ABOUT YOU?

They say I'm a good kid and would never do anything wrong. One of the few I DO trust is my former wrestling coach. And I like him because he's especially picky about having tact when it comes to a situation. He know's how his coworkers are.

[aboutime]

They say I'm a good kid and would never do anything wrong. One of the few I DO trust is my former wrestling coach. And I like him because he's especially picky about having tact when it comes to a situation. He know's how his coworkers are.


So, you think you've fooled them, and they would never know what you think about them...cause you are SO MUCH SMARTER than they.

[Robert A Whit]

Police brutality? Or perhaps a soldier biting off more than he can chew with a Marine?

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Get this. The guy calls the cops.

This story has been all over the local news this past week.

A cop finally shows up. I mean like it took 20 minutes for this bastard to show up.

Some of it is due to cops pay being curtailed.

This guy, the victims, is harshly dealt with and rather than deal with the actual criminals, this fat ass big mouth cop gets all over the victim and puts his knee down hard in the victims chest.

We need cops to pretect us from cops.

[cadet]

So, you think you've fooled them, and they would never know what you think about them...cause you are SO MUCH SMARTER than they.

... Do you think I'm lying? Or that I'm some sort of punk who tries to get away with stuff?

I believe I'm allowed to distrust those who hinder civilians rather then protecting them.

Their JOB is to PROTECT, not be brutal with, or walk everywhere like they're gonna get in a shootout.

I don't know about you, but I come from a back country town where the cops have nothing to do except pull over every guy going 2 miles over the speed limit. And yet they have the audacity to go up to every person with their hand on their hip ready to pull out their gun. I mean seriously, they don't even LOOK at the situation before shooting anymore.

[Robert A Whit]

The kid's a royal punk, but maybe the officer could have tried at least once to diffuse the situation before the smack to the head. I'm not saying the kid didn't deserve it. I just expect more professionalism from our men in blue.


You fucking kidding me?

I know all about that story thanks to the local news.

That kid is the victim.

What if it was a girl. She got beat up and called the cop. The cop shows up and hits her down to the ground and shoves his damned knee in her chest. Still think he is a punk?

I hope he is fired.

The victim was understandably upset since he called 911 and for all the cop knew, he might have been beaten up more and maybe shot. But the cop attacks the victim and you side with the cop?

Fucking stunning.

[SassyLady]

If the cop was really a retired Marine he would have used his superior experience to deal with a young soldier that was running on high adrenalin due to the beating he had already received at the hands of the two who assaulted him. Instead, the cop chose to escalate the situation by hitting him. The kid obviously never thought the police would be attacking him because he called them for help.

Even though the kid was out of line with the cops I think, if given the chance, would have cooperated if talked to reasonably. I think the cop overreacted when the kid complained about how long it took them to get there.

I am from this area and the Vallejo police are known to be brutal and have a "take no prisoners" attitude.


Vallejo saw a 10 percent jump in violent crime last year as the city emerged from bankruptcy. The police force has been cut to 93 officers, down from a high of 158 in 2005. And in November, Officer James Capoot (http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=crime&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22James+Capoot%22) was shot and killed while chasing a suspected bank robber.


Police officials, watchdogs and experts on the use of force agree that the number of shootings in Vallejo is alarming. Officers in Oakland and San Francisco have each killed one person this year, and Vallejo officers had killed two people in the three years before the recent spike.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Vallejo-struggles-with-spate-of-police-shootings-3690624.php#ixzz2KYRL2xWa

[Robert A Whit]

You guys seem to judge this only by the video.
First the cop. I don't care if he is tougher than Clint Eastwood.

But the kid is the victim.

Not the assailant, he called emergency.

This took place in a bankrupt city. Vallejo CA. I have had this on TV for days now. Worse than that, it is well known for violence. The kid told the cop he had been beaten.

Well he told that to the wrong cop. The cop decided that he also could beat the kid up.

What if the victim was a girl and called for help for maybe being raped? I can see that cop belting her alongside her head. That noise the kid was making? He was trying hard to breathe. He was in pain.

Cops in that city are an embarrasement if they back this rogue cop.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

... Do you think I'm lying? Or that I'm some sort of punk who tries to get away with stuff?

I believe I'm allowed to distrust those who hinder civilians rather then protecting them.

Their JOB is to PROTECT, not be brutal with, or walk everywhere like they're gonna get in a shootout.

I don't know about you, but I come from a back country town where the cops have nothing to do except pull over every guy going 2 miles over the speed limit. And yet they have the audacity to go up to every person with their hand on their hip ready to pull out their gun. I mean seriously, they don't even LOOK at the situation before shooting anymore.

I think that you have a good head on your shoulders .
My take from viewing the video is much like yours that the cop over reacted.
Kid was wrong with his attitude but the cop was far more wrong in what he did IMHO.
I'VE PERSONALLY SEEN COPS BEAT THE VICTIM BEFORE. Also have often seen cops take sides even before hearing either party's testimony . Most often they do this by assuming the party hurt the worst is the victim when quite often that is not the case. -Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

I think that you have a good head on your shoulders .
My take from viewing the video is much like yours that the cop over reacted.
Kid was wrong with his attitude but the cop was far more wrong in what he did IMHO.
I'VE PERSONALLY SEEN COPS BEAT THE VICTIM BEFORE. Also have often seen cops take sides even before hearing either party's testimony . Most often they do this by assuming the party hurt the worst is the victim when quite often that is not the case. -Tyr

i agree. A cop is well trained. A cop has years under his belt dealing with victims and criminals.

Merely because a victim was so anxious, no doubt very worried, was no excuse for the cop to turn a victim of those that beat him to add ot his problems by beating the victim.

We don't expect cops to help the criminals do their worst to humans. I plan to tell my son in law about this to get his view since he spent decades on a police force. I do not for one instant think he would knock down a victim and then kneel on the guys chest. I bet that rogue cop had to weigh well above 250 pounds.

[taft2012]

If the cop was really a retired Marine he would have used his superior experience to deal with a young soldier that was running on high adrenalin due to the beating he had already received at the hands of the two who assaulted him.

... and you know all of this from 20-20 hindsight.

An officer arrives on the scene and somebody says they called... maybe they were indeed the one who called. Maybe they weren't.


Even routine radio runs have to be sorted out upon arrival to ensure the situation is safe and stable.

This kid could have been a Debatepolicy nut with an irrational fear of government.:laugh:

[Marcus Aurelius]

I'm ok with the way the cop handled it.

[aboutime]

... Do you think I'm lying? Or that I'm some sort of punk who tries to get away with stuff?

I believe I'm allowed to distrust those who hinder civilians rather then protecting them.

Their JOB is to PROTECT, not be brutal with, or walk everywhere like they're gonna get in a shootout.

I don't know about you, but I come from a back country town where the cops have nothing to do except pull over every guy going 2 miles over the speed limit. And yet they have the audacity to go up to every person with their hand on their hip ready to pull out their gun. I mean seriously, they don't even LOOK at the situation before shooting anymore.


cadet. Based on your attitude. Yes. I do think that about you. You have a huge chip on your shoulder about ALL COPS, as far as I can see. You just used a blanket statement that is immature, and typically liberal. If you take the time to read what you said.

You do have your opinion. Nobody can take that away from you. But labeling all police officers as you did. That's just Stupid, and convinced me. You have a Punk attitude that needs more experience.
Carry that kind of chip with you while in Uniform, and you may find yourself on the short end of a UCMJ discharge.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

cadet. Based on your attitude. Yes. I do think that about you. You have a huge chip on your shoulder about ALL COPS, as far as I can see. You just used a blanket statement that is immature, and typically liberal. If you take the time to read what you said.

You do have your opinion. Nobody can take that away from you. But labeling all police officers as you did. That's just Stupid, and convinced me. You have a Punk attitude that needs more experience.
Carry that kind of chip with you while in Uniform, and you may find yourself on the short end of a UCMJ discharge.

The way I see it the cop over reacted. Had he ignored the kid long enough to get the full story of the incident he could have then decided the proper course of action. Kid needed an attitude adjustment but those are illegal for officers of the law to give unless the person does more than mouth off a few harsh words and criticisms of the cop's performance time in arriving on the scene !!! As a trained officer of the law the officer had the greater responsibility in maintaining that law, beating the crap out of the victim that called the cops doesn't fit well with that IMHO. Unless I missed something on the video the cop had no right to knock the kid down. Hell, bad as my temper is and Im not even a cop I see that..
Cop being a Marine he should have known better.
My friend, I am hazarding a guess that you haven't seen anywhere near as much bullying and bullshit from cops as I have.. Experience teaches a lot and I had far more than my fair share of that with cops in my younger years.
That's why in my previous post here I stated that a good cop is worth his/her weight in gold but the others f-them , feed 'em fish heads.. I always fully mean that which I say.. --Tyr

[Marcus Aurelius]

Never 'start' shit with someone you can't 'finish' shit with.

[tailfins]

... Do you think I'm lying? Or that I'm some sort of punk who tries to get away with stuff?

I believe I'm allowed to distrust those who hinder civilians rather then protecting them.

Their JOB is to PROTECT, not be brutal with, or walk everywhere like they're gonna get in a shootout.

I don't know about you, but I come from a back country town where the cops have nothing to do except pull over every guy going 2 miles over the speed limit. And yet they have the audacity to go up to every person with their hand on their hip ready to pull out their gun. I mean seriously, they don't even LOOK at the situation before shooting anymore.

Crap like this makes me wonder which side of the border we are on. I'm beginning to wonder if US law enforcement is on the same level as Mexican or Brazilian. At least there the cops go away if you cough up a 20.

[jimnyc]

Get this. The guy calls the cops.

This story has been all over the local news this past week.

A cop finally shows up. I mean like it took 20 minutes for this bastard to show up.

Some of it is due to cops pay being curtailed.

This guy, the victims, is harshly dealt with and rather than deal with the actual criminals, this fat ass big mouth cop gets all over the victim and puts his knee down hard in the victims chest.

We need cops to pretect us from cops.


You fucking kidding me?

I know all about that story thanks to the local news.

That kid is the victim.

What if it was a girl. She got beat up and called the cop. The cop shows up and hits her down to the ground and shoves his damned knee in her chest. Still think he is a punk?

I hope he is fired.

The victim was understandably upset since he called 911 and for all the cop knew, he might have been beaten up more and maybe shot. But the cop attacks the victim and you side with the cop?

Fucking stunning.


If the cop was really a retired Marine he would have used his superior experience to deal with a young soldier that was running on high adrenalin due to the beating he had already received at the hands of the two who assaulted him. Instead, the cop chose to escalate the situation by hitting him. The kid obviously never thought the police would be attacking him because he called them for help.

Even though the kid was out of line with the cops I think, if given the chance, would have cooperated if talked to reasonably. I think the cop overreacted when the kid complained about how long it took them to get there.

I am from this area and the Vallejo police are known to be brutal and have a "take no prisoners" attitude.

Adrenaline shouldn't be pumping 45 minutes after an altercation. And while I don't think the cops acted 100% properly - the young man is the one who escalated things 1st by scolding them about being late, then he did so a 2nd time. That's when the officer approached him. Before the officer can do anything, or even speak a word, that's when the young man started puffing out his chest. In many circles, and especially in police circles, that's a sign of aggression, someone acting like they want to fight. Then he verbalized it next, as if he were special and tough, because he was a US soldier. That had no bearing whatsoever and seemed to me to be yet another attempt at intimidation.

If it were just another guy on the street, and the marine responded as such, I would buy him a beer for placing the idiot in his place. Being a police officer though, he should have risen above the bait. Maybe cuffed the kid until he backed off his little perch. He had no right to place his hands on the young man unless he was truly threatened, which I'm not satisfied he was.

So while I do believe the officer was wrong, I also believe the kid needed to be put in his place - just maybe not from an officer of the law. Maybe now we know why his "friends" kicked his ass?

And right or wrong from either side, respect goes a long way. I thought the officers were respectful up until the slam down. respect will likely get you respect in return, disrespect the same.

[bingster]

You fucking kidding me?

I know all about that story thanks to the local news.

That kid is the victim.

What if it was a girl. She got beat up and called the cop. The cop shows up and hits her down to the ground and shoves his damned knee in her chest. Still think he is a punk?

I hope he is fired.

The victim was understandably upset since he called 911 and for all the cop knew, he might have been beaten up more and maybe shot. But the cop attacks the victim and you side with the cop?

Fucking stunning.

Going off on a rant again, I see. As the subject of this thread, I just watched the part that Jimmy posted. No, I don't know all of the background on it. From what I saw, the kid needed his ass kicked. But, I also didn't think it was the cops job to do so as quickly as he did.

From the clip that was provided, I think I made a reasonable analysis.

[cadet]

cadet. Based on your attitude. Yes. I do think that about you. You have a huge chip on your shoulder about ALL COPS, as far as I can see. You just used a blanket statement that is immature, and typically liberal. If you take the time to read what you said.

Fine, how's TYPICALLY cops have the gun ho attitude sound? Most of the ones I've met or heard of are total assholes (my coach not included) and think they're above the law. Until you prove me wrong that most cops are bullies and use their station to undermine civilians your arguments are mute.


You do have your opinion. Nobody can take that away from you. But labeling all police officers as you did. That's just Stupid, and convinced me. You have a Punk attitude that needs more experience.

Having a healthy fear of things gov't related and overpowered is not punk attitude. If you hadn't noticed, the founders were extremely afraid of the gov't power. Sorry for being a little closer to the countries roots then you :rolleyes:


Carry that kind of chip with you while in Uniform, and you may find yourself on the short end of a UCMJ discharge.

Hey moron, I'm going in to PROTECT the civilians, not pick on them. Or did you miss that the cop in the video had no idea how to ASSESS the situation and carry out his duty properly? No, he went strait in for the punch. Didn't even try. You think I want assholes like that thinking they're above the law? Not saying the kid was in the right, he needed it. Just not from a cop who's job is to protect. (not dish out justice as he see's fit)

Despite what you seem to think, cops are supposed to be held more accountable to the law. Cops are here to protect us from the bad guys.
It is so rare for a cop to do his job correctly that when it does happen, it goes across the internet like wildfire.
Do you honestly think that a police officer has to walk into EVERY SINGLE SITUATION expecting a shootout? When one pulls over my mom, with me and my siblings in the car (I was a lot younger) with his hand on his gun, for 2 miles over the speed limit, do you think that's right? Should everything be, shoot first ask questions later!

I bet you're part of that liberal group that thinks cops are not held to as high a standard as the rest of us civilians. They should be allowed bigger guns then us, and have the total right to dish out vigilante justice. Something's a little screwed up in your head if you think that most cops nowadays are not in it for the glory.

[cadet]

Going off on a rant again, I see. As the subject of this thread, I just watched the part that Jimmy posted. No, I don't know all of the background on it. From what I saw, the kid needed his ass kicked. But, I also didn't think it was the cops job to do so as quickly as he did.

From the clip that was provided, I think I made a reasonable analysis.

This will be the only time my opinion coincides with yours :laugh:

[Robert A Whit]

Fine, how's TYPICALLY cops have the gun ho attitude sound? Most of the ones I've met or heard of are total assholes (my coach not included) and think they're above the law. Until you prove me wrong that most cops are bullies and use their station to undermine civilians your arguments are mute.



Having a healthy fear of things gov't related and overpowered is not punk attitude. If you hadn't noticed, the founders were extremely afraid of the gov't power. Sorry for being a little closer to the countries roots then you :rolleyes:



Hey moron, I'm going in to PROTECT the civilians, not pick on them. Or did you miss that the cop in the video had no idea how to ASSESS the situation and carry out his duty properly? No, he went strait in for the punch. Didn't even try. You think I want assholes like that thinking they're above the law? Not saying the kid was in the right, he needed it. Just not from a cop who's job is to protect. (not dish out justice as he see's fit)

Despite what you seem to think, cops are supposed to be held more accountable to the law. Cops are here to protect us from the bad guys.
It is so rare for a cop to do his job correctly that when it does happen, it goes across the internet like wildfire.
Do you honestly think that a police officer has to walk into EVERY SINGLE SITUATION expecting a shootout? When one pulls over my mom, with me and my siblings in the car (I was a lot younger) with his hand on his gun, for 2 miles over the speed limit, do you think that's right? Should everything be, shoot first ask questions later!

I bet you're part of that liberal group that thinks cops are not held to as high a standard as the rest of us civilians. They should be allowed bigger guns then us, and have the total right to dish out vigilante justice. Something's a little screwed up in your head if you think that most cops nowadays are not in it for the glory.

Hey Cadet, not all cops are like that cop is. I know that city and it's problems. It is a bankrupt city and the city had to lay off cops.

That young soldier was pretty hot by the time the cop shows up. And what did the cop do first? Bush his chops. We don't know what the cop endured at his last stop but the man had no business hitting a victim and then kneeling on him. That cop was huge. I mean maybe over 250 pounds. And he seemed not one bit interested in the actual crime. He no sooner finds out the victim got hit before but that somebody pushed his belongings out. Maybe he had not paid rent. That aside, my son in law is a retired cop and a nicer guy you would not run into. He has a fine family and attends church and if he hears me cuss, he darned near walks out.

You had to be doing 90 in a city street for him to write up a ticket on you. Why not write them? He told me that the judges that heard cases dismissed so many tickets that he simply got tired of going to court where he gave a very legal ticket to have the judge dismiss it.

I still have not spoke to him about this rogue cop. I think him being a former marine went to his head.

But all in all, I tend to think that way over 95 percent of the cops are awesome and want to keep the public safe and not get shot down like dogs doing a job as well as they can do it.

[tailfins]

Fine, how's TYPICALLY cops have the gun ho attitude sound? Most of the ones I've met or heard of are total assholes (my coach not included) and think they're above the law. Until you prove me wrong that most cops are bullies and use their station to undermine civilians your arguments are mute.

1) It's "gung ho", not "gun ho".
2) It's "moot", not "mute".
3) I generally agree with you, but find Massachusetts to be an exception, possibly by design.

[Robert A Whit]

Going off on a rant again, I see. As the subject of this thread, I just watched the part that Jimmy posted. No, I don't know all of the background on it. From what I saw, the kid needed his ass kicked. But, I also didn't think it was the cops job to do so as quickly as he did.

From the clip that was provided, I think I made a reasonable analysis.

The cop was so huge he was pro football player size. And the young dude was the victim.

But suppose that was you. You want to be knocked to the ground and have some guy that huge almost hopping up and down on your chest? Didn't you see this event spashed all over the bay area tV news programs? This cop might be brought up on charges. He is in hot water.

Yeah, I rant when a cop hired to protect the public and victims punches out the victim and hops up and down on his chest. Damned right I stand up for victims of crimes.

[jimnyc]

That young soldier was pretty hot by the time the cop shows up. And what did the cop do first? Bush his chops.

You must be watching a different video than me. The cops did nothing or said anything inappropriate to him until he started giving them a hard time about taking 45 minutes to arrive. Then he puffed out his chest and did his "know who you're talking to" routine - and THEN the cop responded. He's a cop, and should have responded differently, but the chops busting was started by this young man.

[jimnyc]

The cop was so huge he was pro football player size. And the young dude was the victim.

But suppose that was you. You want to be knocked to the ground and have some guy that huge almost hopping up and down on your chest? Didn't you see this event spashed all over the bay area tV news programs? This cop might be brought up on charges. He is in hot water.

Yeah, I rant when a cop hired to protect the public and victims punches out the victim and hops up and down on his chest. Damned right I stand up for victims of crimes.

Being it was a police officer, I agree with you, he shouldn't have laid a finger on this kid. But that doesn't absolve this kid. I wish it was just a civilian marine that he had ran into and played his tough guy routine, and then the marine kicked his ass. The kid fully deserved an ass kicking, just not from a PO.

[Robert A Whit]

Adrenaline shouldn't be pumping 45 minutes after an altercation. And while I don't think the cops acted 100% properly - the young man is the one who escalated things 1st by scolding them about being late, then he did so a 2nd time. That's when the officer approached him. Before the officer can do anything, or even speak a word, that's when the young man started puffing out his chest. In many circles, and especially in police circles, that's a sign of aggression, someone acting like they want to fight. Then he verbalized it next, as if he were special and tough, because he was a US soldier. That had no bearing whatsoever and seemed to me to be yet another attempt at intimidation.

If it were just another guy on the street, and the marine responded as such, I would buy him a beer for placing the idiot in his place. Being a police officer though, he should have risen above the bait. Maybe cuffed the kid until he backed off his little perch. He had no right to place his hands on the young man unless he was truly threatened, which I'm not satisfied he was.

So while I do believe the officer was wrong, I also believe the kid needed to be put in his place - just maybe not from an officer of the law. Maybe now we know why his "friends" kicked his ass?

And right or wrong from either side, respect goes a long way. I thought the officers were respectful up until the slam down. respect will likely get you respect in return, disrespect the same.

Jim, you sorry bastard. LOL

The young guy is the victim.

I said he waited 20 minutes but it was 45. And the cop was fine until he punched the victim and then got down on him with his knee and hopped up and down on him.

The cop should have been far more understanding of what the victim has been put through causing him to call 911 and plead for help. The cops idea of help was to sucker punch the victim.
:laugh:

[jimnyc]

Jim, you sorry bastard. LOL

The young guy is the victim.

I said he waited 20 minutes but it was 45. And the cop was fine until he punched the victim and then got down on him with his knee and hopped up and down on him.

The cop should have been far more understanding of what the victim has been put through causing him to call 911 and plead for help. The cops idea of help was to sucker punch the victim.
:laugh:

I agree the cops RESPONSE was out of line, from what I can see. And also from what I can see, was a kid pushing the issue, acting tough, throwing out the soldier card and puffing out his chest when an officer approached him. He provoked the copper. That still doesn't give an officer of the law the right to assault someone, I agree. The whole scenario would have been perfect had the kid come across this guy out of uniform, and then pulled his routine, and put in his place by a Marine. The uniform and badge change things though.

[Robert A Whit]

Sassy gets my wild applause for knowing the situation and writing so smartly about this event.

Thank you Sassy.


If the cop was really a retired Marine he would have used his superior experience to deal with a young soldier that was running on high adrenalin due to the beating he had already received at the hands of the two who assaulted him. Instead, the cop chose to escalate the situation by hitting him. The kid obviously never thought the police would be attacking him because he called them for help.

Even though the kid was out of line with the cops I think, if given the chance, would have cooperated if talked to reasonably. I think the cop overreacted when the kid complained about how long it took them to get there.

I am from this area and the Vallejo police are known to be brutal and have a "take no prisoners" attitude.


Vallejo saw a 10 percent jump in violent crime last year as the city emerged from bankruptcy. The police force has been cut to 93 officers, down from a high of 158 in 2005. And in November, Officer James Capoot (http://www.sfgate.com/?controllerName=search&action=search&channel=crime&search=1&inlineLink=1&query=%22James+Capoot%22) was shot and killed while chasing a suspected bank robber.


Police officials, watchdogs and experts on the use of force agree that the number of shootings in Vallejo is alarming. Officers in Oakland and San Francisco have each killed one person this year, and Vallejo officers had killed two people in the three years before the recent spike.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/...#ixzz2KYRL2xWa (http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Vallejo-struggles-with-spate-of-police-shootings-3690624.php#ixzz2KYRL2xWa)

[aboutime]

Fine, how's TYPICALLY cops have the gun ho attitude sound? Most of the ones I've met or heard of are total assholes (my coach not included) and think they're above the law. Until you prove me wrong that most cops are bullies and use their station to undermine civilians your arguments are mute.



Having a healthy fear of things gov't related and overpowered is not punk attitude. If you hadn't noticed, the founders were extremely afraid of the gov't power. Sorry for being a little closer to the countries roots then you :rolleyes:



Hey moron, I'm going in to PROTECT the civilians, not pick on them. Or did you miss that the cop in the video had no idea how to ASSESS the situation and carry out his duty properly? No, he went strait in for the punch. Didn't even try. You think I want assholes like that thinking they're above the law? Not saying the kid was in the right, he needed it. Just not from a cop who's job is to protect. (not dish out justice as he see's fit)

Despite what you seem to think, cops are supposed to be held more accountable to the law. Cops are here to protect us from the bad guys.
It is so rare for a cop to do his job correctly that when it does happen, it goes across the internet like wildfire.
Do you honestly think that a police officer has to walk into EVERY SINGLE SITUATION expecting a shootout? When one pulls over my mom, with me and my siblings in the car (I was a lot younger) with his hand on his gun, for 2 miles over the speed limit, do you think that's right? Should everything be, shoot first ask questions later!

I bet you're part of that liberal group that thinks cops are not held to as high a standard as the rest of us civilians. They should be allowed bigger guns then us, and have the total right to dish out vigilante justice. Something's a little screwed up in your head if you think that most cops nowadays are not in it for the glory.


cadet. I'll make this short, and sweet. And have no intentions of arguing with you about my opinion of you, or how immature you are. And, in keeping with jimnyc's request to remain calm here, and not start a fight. I will say. "YOU ARE TALKING OUT YOUR ASS!" And leave it at that until you either Grow Up, or learn to read, and understand what you are saying in Anger. You can start by laughing with me...seeing as how you labeled me a Liberal. That's funny stuff.

[tailfins]

cadet. I'll make this short, and sweet. And have no intentions of arguing with you about my opinion of you, or how immature you are. And, in keeping with jimnyc's request to remain calm here, and not start a fight. I will say. "YOU ARE TALKING OUT YOUR ASS!" And leave it at that until you either Grow Up, or learn to read, and understand what you are saying in Anger. You can start by laughing with me...seeing as how you labeled me a Liberal. That's funny stuff.

Maybe Jim can design a CBT "How to be a good message board member" workshop.

For example, in the instance portrayed in the video, should you:

A) Cuss them out
B) Whine to the admins
C) Demand they meet you at the abandoned parking lot on Fourth and Pine.
D) Use the ignore feature

[bingster]

The cop was so huge he was pro football player size. And the young dude was the victim.

But suppose that was you. You want to be knocked to the ground and have some guy that huge almost hopping up and down on your chest? Didn't you see this event spashed all over the bay area tV news programs? This cop might be brought up on charges. He is in hot water.

Yeah, I rant when a cop hired to protect the public and victims punches out the victim and hops up and down on his chest. Damned right I stand up for victims of crimes.

I can only hope the cop does get disciplined. I really do agree with you on that.

I still got a thrill out of seeing that little punk bitch, whiny, piss down his leg, pussy, poor excuse for a soldier (probably worked as a cook or in supply) DEMAND respect from a police officer get his ass kicked!

I'll bet there is more to the story, like why all of his friends just kicked his ass.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You must be watching a different video than me. The cops did nothing or said anything inappropriate to him until he started giving them a hard time about taking 45 minutes to arrive. Then he puffed out his chest and did his "know who you're talking to" routine - and THEN the cop responded. He's a cop, and should have responded differently, but the chops busting was started by this young man.

The thing people seem to be ignoring, well, some people anyway, is that when the kid 'puffed up', he took a step towards the officer.

If I'm the officer, and you puff up and step towards me like this kid did, you're going down until I determine you're not going to pose a threat. Once the potential of threat was determined, the officer let the kid up.

Again, no problems here.


It's like yelling at the cashier, for something the company said to you on the phone earlier. Like the cashier is to blame, or can do anything about it? Please.

[tailfins]

I can only hope the cop does get disciplined. I really do agree with you on that.

I still got a thrill out of seeing that little punk *****, whiny, piss down his leg, *****, poor excuse for a soldier (probably worked as a cook or in supply) DEMAND respect from a police officer get his a$$ kicked!

I'll bet there is more to the story, like why all of his friends just kicked his a$$.

One needs to be stealthy when resisting authority. I find it strange that the kid doesn't want to sue. I would have more respect for someone who kept their cool and carefully assembled a lawsuit and/or if possible criminal prosecution. It may feel good to tell someone "what for", but it feels even better to show them AND get a good pay day to boot.

[jimnyc]

The thing people seem to be ignoring, well, some people anyway, is that when the kid 'puffed up', he took a step towards the officer.

If I'm the officer, and you puff up and step towards me like this kid did, you're going down until I determine you're not going to pose a threat. Once the potential of threat was determined, the officer let the kid up.

Again, no problems here.

Yep. I know enough officers, and those I know refer to that as puffing. Some will expand their chests, lift their head up high and move in an aggressive manner while interacting with an officer. That in itself is a threat of sorts, IMO. I don't know if it's worthy of a UFC TKO, but at least enough to give the officer cause for concern.

[Marcus Aurelius]

One needs to be stealthy when resisting authority. I find it strange that the kid doesn't want to sue. I would have more respect for someone who kept their cool and carefully assembled a lawsuit and/or if possible criminal prosecution. It may feel good to tell someone "what for", but it feels even better to show them AND get a good pay day to boot.

Respect would have worked better than stealth in this case.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Yep. I know enough officers, and those I know refer to that as puffing. Some will expand their chests, lift their head up high and move in an aggressive manner while interacting with an officer. That in itself is a threat of sorts, IMO. I don't know if it's worthy of a UFC TKO, but at least enough to give the officer cause for concern.

When an officer doesn't take steps to ensure his safety when dealing with a situation or potential suspect, this is what can happen...

http://www.policemag.com/videos/channel/patrol/2010/06/suspect-shoots-officer-after-pursuit-oc-spray.aspx

Cpl. Bruce McKay (http://odmp.org/officer/18880-corporal-n.-bruce-mckay-iii) of the Franconia (N.H.) Police Department ended his watch on May 11, 2007. McKay stopped a suspect after a brief pursuit. After being pepper sprayed, the suspect shot the officer four times, killing him. The suspect then ran over the officer. A civilian intervened and shot the suspect with the officer's service weapon.


http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_22379583/reports-officer-galt-shot-killed-ruing-burglary

K-9 officer Kevin Tonn, 31, was one of two officers who responded to a burglary in progress on the 200 block of F Street in Galt around 11:30 a.m., according to Galt police Lt. Jim Uptegrove. While officers were interviewing neighbors, one of the witnesses pointed down the road to some train tracks, roughly a block away, identifying the burglary suspect.


Tonn attempted to approach the man, but Uptegrove said the man became aggressive and an altercation between Tonn and the suspect ensued.

At some point during the struggle, the suspect pulled out a hand gun and shot Tonn and the second officer who responded to the burglary call.

Tonn was taken to Kaiser Permanente South Sacramento Hospital where he was pronounced dead, Uptegrove said.

[cadet]

cadet. I'll make this short, and sweet. And have no intentions of arguing with you about my opinion of you, or how immature you are. And, in keeping with jimnyc's request to remain calm here, and not start a fight. I will say. "YOU ARE TALKING OUT YOUR ASS!" And leave it at that until you either Grow Up, or learn to read, and understand what you are saying in Anger. You can start by laughing with me...seeing as how you labeled me a Liberal. That's funny stuff.

Ain't that the pot callin' the kettle black.
Try READING what I wrote. And YOU try growing up, I don't think you've actually understood a thing I've written.

And since you've decided to resort to telling me I'm talking out of my ass, I may as well tell you that I most certainly am not. Despite what your crystal ball says about me, I'm not a punk. And my view of a bully overusing his title as a police officer to lay out a kid comes from a dislike of people abusing the system. Not from having done anything wrong. Just cause I'm young doesn't mean I'm a dumbass punk.

[cadet]

One needs to be stealthy when resisting authority. I find it strange that the kid doesn't want to sue. I would have more respect for someone who kept their cool and carefully assembled a lawsuit and/or if possible criminal prosecution. It may feel good to tell someone "what for", but it feels even better to show them AND get a good pay day to boot.

I don't, who would want to make a bigger deal and try to make it on the news that he got his butt handed to him by a guy who looks like he hangs out at the doughnut shop too much? :laugh:

[aboutime]

Ain't that the pot callin' the kettle black.
Try READING what I wrote. And YOU try growing up, I don't think you've actually understood a thing I've written.

And since you've decided to resort to telling me I'm talking out of my ass, I may as well tell you that I most certainly am not. Despite what your crystal ball says about me, I'm not a punk. And my view of a bully overusing his title as a police officer to lay out a kid comes from a dislike of people abusing the system. Not from having done anything wrong. Just cause I'm young doesn't mean I'm a dumbass punk.


Really? Take time to go back and read what you just said above. I rest my case.

On second thought. Don't bother. You just proved what I suspected, and what caused my opinion.
Of course. You MUST disagree.
Go Figure?

[tailfins]

Respect would have worked better than stealth in this case.

I would have called the cop incompetent straight up and insisted on another cop or better still superior interested in doing their job. When a cop tells you he decides when he wants to show up, it's game over. The cop then becomes an abuser not interested in offering assistance.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I would have called the cop incompetent straight up and insisted on another cop or better still superior interested in doing their job. When a cop tells you he decides when he wants to show up, it's game over. The cop then becomes an abuser not interested in offering assistance.

I believe he said 'I'm not on your timetable', if I heard the video correctly. Just curious, but how do we know when the officer was actually dispatched? Could have been 2 minutes after the call came in, or 45 minutes. Then again, it certainly is possibly the officer got the call in a timely manner and did not respond in kind. I wasn't there and the video doesn't have all the information, so it could be any of those.

Still doesn't mean the officer should not act to protect himself from a potential threat when encountered.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Ain't that the pot callin' the kettle black.
Try READING what I wrote. And YOU try growing up, I don't think you've actually understood a thing I've written.

And since you've decided to resort to telling me I'm talking out of my ass, I may as well tell you that I most certainly am not. Despite what your crystal ball says about me, I'm not a punk. And my view of a bully overusing his title as a police officer to lay out a kid comes from a dislike of people abusing the system. Not from having done anything wrong. Just cause I'm young doesn't mean I'm a dumbass punk.

Pretty much every post you've made in this thread disagrees with that statement.

[tailfins]

I believe he said 'I'm not on your timetable', if I heard the video correctly. Just curious, but how do we know when the officer was actually dispatched? Could have been 2 minutes after the call came in, or 45 minutes. Then again, it certainly is possibly the officer got the call in a timely manner and did not respond in kind. I wasn't there and the video doesn't have all the information, so it could be any of those.

Still doesn't mean the officer should not act to protect himself from a potential threat when encountered.

The young man should have simply asked to call the cop's supervisor. I have never had that request denied. I would have made exactly that call after "I'm not on your timetable".

[jimnyc]

I believe he said 'I'm not on your timetable', if I heard the video correctly. Just curious, but how do we know when the officer was actually dispatched? Could have been 2 minutes after the call came in, or 45 minutes. Then again, it certainly is possibly the officer got the call in a timely manner and did not respond in kind. I wasn't there and the video doesn't have all the information, so it could be any of those.

Still doesn't mean the officer should not act to protect himself from a potential threat when encountered.

Also possible that they were on a call that was more of an emergency? That's something for the kid to take up with the department, if he has an issue with it, not on the street with an officer. The kid himself changed the subject from his issue that was called in, to the police being late and himself being a soldier.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The young man should have simply asked to call the cop's supervisor. I have never had that request denied. I would have made exactly that call after "I'm not on your timetable".

I disagree. He should have dealt with the situation at hand, in a respectful manner. Once it was resolved, or on it's way to being resolved, he should have either asked to speak to the officers watch commander, or asked who the watch commander was so he could complain later.

To each, his own, I suppose.

[aboutime]

Pretty much every post you've made in this thread disagrees with that statement.


Marcus. Thanks for the backup, but sometimes it's just best to allow people to say whatever they have on their mind, and let them go. Of course. Someone like me, at 66 years old. Has no life experiences to share. No wisdom, or common sense to pass on. So, I happily allow the much smarter, younger people who know everything...have their way.

You see. If they manage to grow older. They too will find themselves...talking to young people who know everything. Just like they knew Obama would be a great president.

[SassyLady]

This cop has previous complaints about heavy handedness. I feel that the minute the kid said I'm a "soldier" it pissed off the "marine" and he used his authority as a police officer to smack down the "soldier" just as if he were truly a marine vs. soldier.

And Taft can get his panties in a bunch if he wants because this one time I disagree with the cop's actions .... I am usually 99% on the side of the LEO on just about any situation. However, someone in the department feels that this individual is going overboard because they leaked the cop-cam to one of the local bay area television affiliates.

Didn't any of you wonder why the view was from the cop's vantage. How did that view get all over the internet?

My opinion on this is just from this one time incident ... in our area we hear about Vallejo police "over reactions" quite frequently.

[logroller]

Hey the guy was being a dick but, unfortunately perhaps, that's not a crime. And his "puffing up" was not an aggressive act, it was a defensive one made in response to the officer's intimidating approach well into the man's personal space. The guy tried to get respect and, though he failed in spectacular fashion, the officer had no grounds to believe he was threatened unless not backing down to another's aggression and/or saying youre a soldier is tantamount to fighting words.
If i turn the table, and the guy had approached a mouthy cop and the cop said "im a cop" and stood his ground, theres no way in hell anyone would believe the guy would be justified in punching a cop-- itd be clear cut assault of a police officer-- a class 1 felony. Yet here, a case of assault under the color of authority-- I don't even think that's a wobbler misdemeanor. Its disgusting. That's why this last resort character has such a following-- he was one of the good cops and was summarily dismissed for opposing the systemic abuse of power.

[taft2012]

Fine, how's TYPICALLY cops have the gun ho attitude sound? Most of the ones I've met or heard of are total assholes (my coach not included) and think they're above the law. Until you prove me wrong that most cops are bullies and use their station to undermine civilians your arguments are mute.


If you got off a plane in NYC's JFK airport from Iceland, making your first overseas vacation away from your Icelandic home ever...

... and immediately got mugged outside the airport by a black guy, you could then make equally broad negative generalizations about black people.

.... and it would be just as stupid.

But do you stop there? No. You then ask for statistical evidence to refute your anecdotal evidence.

Tell the truth: your wrestling coach Sanduskies you, doesn't he?

[Marcus Aurelius]

This cop has previous complaints about heavy handedness. I feel that the minute the kid said I'm a "soldier" it pissed off the "marine" and he used his authority as a police officer to smack down the "soldier" just as if he were truly a marine vs. soldier.

And Taft can get his panties in a bunch if he wants because this one time I disagree with the cop's actions .... I am usually 99% on the side of the LEO on just about any situation. However, someone in the department feels that this individual is going overboard because they leaked the cop-cam to one of the local bay area television affiliates.

Didn't any of you wonder why the view was from the cop's vantage. How did that view get all over the internet?

My opinion on this is just from this one time incident ... in our area we hear about Vallejo police "over reactions" quite frequently.

point 1: link?

point 2: Really? You hear about the Vallejo, CA police 'quite frequently', there in PA??

[jimnyc]

Hey the guy was being a dick but, unfortunately perhaps, that's not a crime. And his "puffing up" was not an aggressive act, it was a defensive one made in response to the officer's intimidating approach well into the man's personal space. The guy tried to get respect and, though he failed in spectacular fashion, the officer had no grounds to believe he was threatened unless not backing down to another's aggression and/or saying youre a soldier is tantamount to fighting words.
If i turn the table, and the guy had approached a mouthy cop and the cop said "im a cop" and stood his ground, theres no way in hell anyone would believe the guy would be justified in punching a cop-- itd be clear cut assault of a police officer-- a class 1 felony. Yet here, a case of assault under the color of authority-- I don't even think that's a wobbler misdemeanor. Its disgusting. That's why this last resort character has such a following-- he was one of the good cops and was summarily dismissed for opposing the systemic abuse of power.

That's not the way I saw it. This kid started with the 45 minutes first, then got even more pissed when the cop said he wasn't on his timetable. The cop appeared to take ONE step forward, not a single bit of aggression, and that's when the kid puffed up and started in with his know who you're talking to crap.

I still don't think that gives the PO the authority to do what he did, and I have more or less stated that from the beginning. But this kid being a punk did himself no favors. The ONLY reason I say the cop was at fault was because of his position and his sworn duties. Otherwise, I say it's a good thing that a Marine put the punk in his place.

[SassyLady]

point 1: link?

For starters, watch the second video ... all the way to the end.


point 2: Really? You hear about the Vallejo, CA police 'quite frequently', there in PA??

I live in Northern CA ... what are referring to when you say "there in PA?"

links:


http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2012/10/02/18722876.php
http://decolonizeoakland.org/ai1ec_event/rally-against-police-brutality-and-corruption-in-vallejo/?instance_id=
http://vallejocopwatch.blogspot.com/2013/02/2013-02-09-rally-against-police.html
http://reason.com/blog/2012/05/24/the-costs-of-police-brutality-fresh-out
http://suisuncity.patch.com/articles/vallejo-man-receives-police-brutality-settlement

Shall I provide more?

[logroller]

That's not the way I saw it. This kid started with the 45 minutes first, then got even more pissed when the cop said he wasn't on his timetable. The cop appeared to take ONE step forward, not a single bit of aggression, and that's when the kid puffed up and started in with his know who you're talking to crap.

I still don't think that gives the PO the authority to do what he did, and I have more or less stated that from the beginning. But this kid being a punk did himself no favors. The ONLY reason I say the cop was at fault was because of his position and his sworn duties. Otherwise, I say it's a good thing that a Marine put the punk in his place.
Ok sure..one step... forward into the man's face--that's confrontational, an act to intimidate is assault. The cop then says, "are you stepping up on me", to which the man says "you stepped up to me" then The guy gets dropped--that's battery. Sorry Jim- its clearly criminal. That a marine "puts some punk in his place" doesn't negate the fact a crime was committed...made only worse by the fact it was committed by a peace officer. His "being a punk" was criticizing a public official-- when that becomes cause to get knocked out, we should be extremely concerned.

[taft2012]

That a marine "puts some punk in his place" doesn't negate the fact a crime was committed...made only worse by the fact it was committed by a peace officer. His "being a punk" was criticizing a public official-- when that becomes cause to get knocked out, we should be extremely concerned.

One only needs to be concerned if one possesses a self-realization that one has a strong propensity to behave like a dick.

Upon arriving at a 911 call a police officer needs to remain on guard until the situation and all of the players involved are identified. I've never responded to a 911 call and had a caller start giving me shit like this, so the first time I watched the video I was a little skeptical of the caller too.

You're all entitled to your amateur opinions and Monday morning quarterbacking.... having to listen to it is an occupational hazard. At this point, you just have to ask yourself how many of your observations are programmed into you and incapable of being changed by facts?

Would your perspective be different is this was a black kid dropped onto the ground?

[jimnyc]

Ok sure..one step... forward into the man's face--that's confrontational, an act to intimidate is assault. The cop then says, "are you stepping up on me", to which the man says "you stepped up to me" then The guy gets dropped--that's battery. Sorry Jim- its clearly criminal. That a marine "puts some punk in his place" doesn't negate the fact a crime was committed...made only worse by the fact it was committed by a peace officer. His "being a punk" was criticizing a public official-- when that becomes cause to get knocked out, we should be extremely concerned.

Being a cop was involved, I have no alternative but to agree with you. The rules change when one is a police officer. My stance was that IF it wasn't a cop, and the kid was just puffing to a Marine unwittingly, it would have been nice to see the smart ass get put in his place.

[logroller]

Being a cop was involved, I have no alternative but to agree with you. The rules change when one is a police officer. My stance was that IF it wasn't a cop, and the kid was just puffing to a Marine unwittingly, it would have been nice to see the smart ass get put in his place.
The fact he's a public official means he should be expected to take the criticism, regardless of rather the guy's a dick. I drove for FedEx for 5 years; probably had well over a thousand late deliveries, so i had to deal with some customers who were upset about tardiness. Somehow, I managed not to knock anyone out. To do otherwise would likely have resulted in my dismissal. I see no reason for the officer here being treated any differently.

[taft2012]

The fact he's a public official means he should be expected to take the criticism, regardless of rather the guy's a dick. I drove for FedEx for 5 years; probably had well over a thousand late deliveries, so i had to deal with some customers who were upset about tardiness. Somehow, I managed not to knock anyone out. To do otherwise would likely have resulted in my dismissal. I see no reason for the officer here being treated any differently.

Brilliant analogy.

Let's compare the number of FedEx deliverymen murdered for late packages to that of police officers responding to 911 calls.

Is legalized marijuana really worth looking this dumb for?

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by logroller http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=617845#post617845)
The fact he's a public official means he should be expected to take the criticism, regardless of rather the guy's a dick. I drove for FedEx for 5 years; probably had well over a thousand late deliveries, so i had to deal with some customers who were upset about tardiness. Somehow, I managed not to knock anyone out. To do otherwise would likely have resulted in my dismissal. I see no reason for the officer here being treated any differently.

Originally Posted by Taft
Brilliant analogy.

Let's compare the number of FedEx deliverymen murdered for late packages to that of police officers responding to 911 calls.

Is legalized marijuana really worth looking this dumb for?

Look, I believe we are friends to cops. I believe that the typical cop does not get pissed off at the victim and belt that victim's head. Does not put the victim down on the concrete and rock up and down on the victims chest using his knee.

That is bull shit. I am local to that and plan to see if the media mentions it when internal affairs looks this over.

Do you really mean to try to make a case for victims being assaulted?

Come on.

[jimnyc]

The fact he's a public official means he should be expected to take the criticism, regardless of rather the guy's a dick. I drove for FedEx for 5 years; probably had well over a thousand late deliveries, so i had to deal with some customers who were upset about tardiness. Somehow, I managed not to knock anyone out. To do otherwise would likely have resulted in my dismissal. I see no reason for the officer here being treated any differently.

When I worked at a law firm I had to basically kiss the asses of the partners there, and even many of the 1st year graduates, or risk losing my job. I would still liked to have kicked a few of their asses when the clock stopped ticking though! :coffee:

[taft2012]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png

Look, I believe we are friends to cops. I believe that the typical cop does not get pissed off at the victim and belt that victim's head. Does not put the victim down on the concrete and rock up and down on the victims chest using his knee.

.

Again... with the 20/20 hindsight of all Monday morning quarterbacks, you know the victim is the victim.

When you arrive, you don't know who is who until everything is sorted out. Victims do not generally become hostile to the police they called, which more than justified caution on the part of the officer. Hostility required controlling, which was done.

Case closed.

[Robert A Whit]

Being a cop was involved, I have no alternative but to agree with you. The rules change when one is a police officer. My stance was that IF it wasn't a cop, and the kid was just puffing to a Marine unwittingly, it would have been nice to see the smart ass get put in his place.

Jim

I am close to Vallejo and that city is in our news a lot. Do you realize the image that city has?

Cops are hired with the idea that when called on they will defend the victim. Vallejo has an awful reputation on that score.

This cop adds to the reputation of that city as a place where if you call the cops, you may be turned into a double victim. First by the original punks who beat this guy then the cops shows up, punches out your lights, and being a heavy man, gets down on your chest and assaults you.

I am not totally sure why, but do know that Vallejo has pissed off cops. They resent a lot of things. They resent pay being cut. I think they plan to use force on more victims if this cop is not exposed as a rogue and maybe removed from his job.

[jimnyc]

Even though the "law" may look at things differently than me, I still would have given the copper a $20 top for "taking the wind" out of his sails for him! :laugh2:

[jimnyc]

Jim

I am close to Vallejo and that city is in our news a lot. Do you realize the image that city has?

Cops are hired with the idea that when called on they will defend the victim. Vallejo has an awful reputation on that score.

This cop adds to the reputation of that city as a place where if you call the cops, you may be turned into a double victim. First by the original punks who beat this guy then the cops shows up, punches out your lights, and being a heavy man, gets down on your chest and assaults you.

I am not totally sure why, but do know that Vallejo has pissed off cops. They resent a lot of things. They resent pay being cut. I think they plan to use force on more victims if this cop is not exposed as a rogue and maybe removed from his job.

I'm a betting man, and I'm willing to wager that the cop wouldn't have put this kid on his ass if he wasn't a dick to the cop. And no, I don't think that gives the cop the authority to hit the kid, but I think we would have seen a different outcome.

[taft2012]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDirCLkvP0gKD2zOstOotiwgmR7L2BB 0j4_0vV0Uj2VlhO7_2dwQ

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Robert Whit? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for this little weasel, and you curse the police. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That this twerp's smackdown, while regrettable, may have saved a life. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think..

[logroller]

One only needs to be concerned if one possesses a self-realization that one has a strong propensity to behave like a dick.

Upon arriving at a 911 call a police officer needs to remain on guard until the situation and all of the players involved are identified. I've never responded to a 911 call and had a caller start giving me shit like this, so the first time I watched the video I was a little skeptical of the caller too.

You're all entitled to your amateur opinions and Monday morning quarterbacking.... having to listen to it is an occupational hazard. At this point, you just have to ask yourself how many of your observations are programmed into you and incapable of being changed by facts?

Would your perspective be different is this was a black kid dropped onto the ground?
ask yourself the same questions bigot; I am extremely rational; more so than you. You've been corrupted by the pig-headed men who came before you; nothin but a drone under the color of law. I pity you. All those abuses add up and then one day a guy like dorner wipes you off the map. Who was black btw; and no, my opinion of the culpability of the lapd isnt diminished by the fact he was black.
Criticism of a public official is a right of every American. If you don't like it, get a different job. When an officer fails at that, it undermines the faith that is required to maintain the public trust in the agency. When you show up in uniform, you must rise above your personal whim for the integrity of our entire system of laws. Its a great burden; but not one you should shuck off; laughingly sayin earlier he got pwned...so did those riverside PD officers by dorner then. Oh wait that's not very civil. That's tasteless. so, has my criticism insulted you and profession sufficiently that maybe you can assault me and talk your buddy into trumping up some bs charge that someone was deserving of having their skill rattled. Falsely attribute something else to make your fragile ego live up to superiority complex. Keep talking trash copper; i can move from my "amateur opinion" and ill start in with the higher than average drinking, domestic violence, and infidelity statistics for peace officers-- that's not an opinion, those are facts-- my opinion is its not the stress of the job, but rather that loose cannon assholes tend to like positions where they wield and abuse their authority.

[logroller]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDirCLkvP0gKD2zOstOotiwgmR7L2BB 0j4_0vV0Uj2VlhO7_2dwQ

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Robert Whit? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for this little weasel, and you curse the police. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That this twerp's smackdown, while regrettable, may have saved a life. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think..
He was arrested and, ostensibly, sent to prison for his crimes. Nice of you to realize that nobody is above the law.

[Robert A Whit]

Again... with the 20/20 hindsight of all Monday morning quarterbacks, you know the victim is the victim.

When you arrive, you don't know who is who until everything is sorted out. Victims do not generally become hostile to the police they called, which more than justified caution on the part of the officer. Hostility required controlling, which was done.

Case closed.

Sounds to me like you have punched out a few victims yourself and with a bulky body akin to a pro football player rocked up and down while kneeing the victim you put on the ground until he was very scared.

Well, do you want me to compliment you for not using your training very well and making the victim become a double victim as well?

Vallejo cops don's show up fast. Those cops have too many of them pretty pissed off all the time.

I do not for one moment believe all cops are like those cops are. See, that one rogue cop has me speaking not of just him, which I tried to keep it to, but now all of the cops working at Vallejo.

If you think all cops fret over victims, guess again. Vallejo is not your normal city. But that victim did not deserve to be assaulted.

Can't you deal with very upset victims and not punch them out?

My son in law did for many years.

Say, I have an idea. I have a funny cop story that was told to me by one of my cop clients.

Why don't you tell some funny cop stories?

Hell, this story was told to me around 1982.

Tony is out on patrol and gets a call to go to a gas station for an event.

He arrives to find that a person is parked against a fence. Behind him is parked the guy he got called about. He is blocking the other guy from leaving the station.

Tony puts his car in such fashion that nobody can leave.

Walks up to the closed window of the problem parker and knocks on his window.
The guy won't roll down his window.

Tony tries to be nice about it and talks to the trapped guy being blocked in by the other guy.

He goes back and asks the guy trapping the other guy what his name is.

"Peckerhead" the guy says.

"Well, Mr. Peckerhead, roll down the window and tell me why you blocked the guy"

Anyway Tony gets nowhere with the guy so he puts the patrol car bumper against this guys bumper and does some police work. He figures the guy may understand how being tarpped feels.

Anyway, Tony won. The guy agreed to move and stop blocking the other guy.

Tony punched nobody. Tony did not kneel on the guys chest.

Tony was a damned good cop. He served the city of Palo Alto, CA. I am proud he was my client.

[jimnyc]

He was arrested and, ostensibly, sent to prison for his crimes. Nice of you to realize that nobody is above the law.

Be that as it may, one of the 3 best speeches in film history, arguably of course.

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[Robert A Whit]

Even though the "law" may look at things differently than me, I still would have given the copper a $20 top for "taking the wind" out of his sails for him! :laugh2:

Well, we now know what to expect from Cops in Vallejo, CA don't we Jim?

Call 911 and get the shit beat out of you.

No wonder Vallejo cops have an awful reputation. I wish CA would completely investigate that department.

[jimnyc]

Well, we now know what to expect from Cops in Vallejo, CA don't we Jim?

Call 911 and get the shit beat out of you.

No wonder Vallejo cops have an awful reputation. I wish CA would completely investigate that department.

I disagree. I'd have to see a video of the cops approaching someone not acting like a total asshole and see how they respond then. I have a sneaky suspicion that if you don't fuck with them, the odds of them fucking with you in return gets much lower.

[Robert A Whit]

Police brutality? Or perhaps a soldier biting off more than he can chew with a Marine?

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Watch this video. Then tell me the rogue cop did right. Notice that Vallejo covers for him.


The cop was way out of bounds.

[Robert A Whit]

I disagree. I'd have to see a video of the cops approaching someone not acting like a total asshole and see how they respond then. I have a sneaky suspicion that if you don't fuck with them, the odds of them fucking with you in return gets much lower.

This is a case where you simply don't know how the Vallejo cops are. And when you are told how they are, you don't defend their victims, you defend rogue cops.

Why is it we don't see victims handled that way in the rest of the Bay Area cities? Even Oakland has a better reputation than does Vallejo.

Why do you suppose ABC NEWS decided to investigate? And did you study your second video closely?

Finally, this victim should go to court and sue the city.

[Robert A Whit]

I disagree. I'd have to see a video of the cops approaching someone not acting like a total asshole and see how they respond then. I have a sneaky suspicion that if you don't fuck with them, the odds of them fucking with you in return gets much lower.

How many victims do you think call the cops and are cool, calm and collected as the cops treat this crime as nothing at all?

Why do you even suppose ABC TV took this up?

What is clear to me is you see these Vallejo cops as ordinary cops. They are feckless bullies. Look at the size of that cop. Watch the news cast again. TWO cops bounced up and down on the victim over what?

That victim was scared once he got beat up and tossed out.

How do you think that same cop treats rape victims who get upset that they dragged their asses to a call 45 minutes late as the perps were still there?

Imagine you got beat up. Those that beat you are still there. You have to piss off 45 minutes and suddenly the cop shows up and belts you along side your head?

Jim, Channel 7 did not report this for the hell of it. That entire city has rogue cops.

[logroller]

I disagree. I'd have to see a video of the cops approaching someone not acting like a total asshole and see how they respond then. I have a sneaky suspicion that if you don't fuck with them, the odds of them fucking with you in return gets much lower.
Since when is complaining that a cop was late responding considered fucking with them? Like I said, if the cops can't handle a victim who's mad about a slow response without intimidation and violence, then theres an issue with their dept's training. There are atleast ten different responses which could have been taken to diffuse the situation. A simple, "we had another call that had priority" would have sufficed without the arrogance of "im not on your clock" ...which, as public servants, they kinda are and I would have found it insulting! That's not Monday morning quarterbacking either; if the quarterback brings a bat out because people are trying to tackle him, he's pulled out on Sunday!

[jimnyc]

How many victims do you think call the cops and are cool, calm and collected as the cops treat this crime as nothing at all?

Why do you even suppose ABC TV took this up?

What is clear to me is you see these Vallejo cops as ordinary cops. They are feckless bullies. Look at the size of that cop. Watch the news cast again. TWO cops bounced up and down on the victim over what?

That victim was scared once he got beat up and tossed out.

How do you think that same cop treats rape victims who get upset that they dragged their asses to a call 45 minutes late as the perps were still there?

Imagine you got beat up. Those that beat you are still there. You have to piss off 45 minutes and suddenly the cop shows up and belts you along side your head?

Jim, Channel 7 did not report this for the hell of it. That entire city has rogue cops.

I'm not speaking for the West Coast or your neighborhood, Robert! I'm simply discussing what I saw in this particular video. I saw a few angles, taking into account that he is a police officer. I don't pretend to know enough about the law and police protocol to make a final decision on that. I'm simply saying, the kids tough guy routine, made me want to see someone put him in his place. The fact that it was a Marine was icing on the cake. If this was just a guy on the street, at a bar, on the beach, and a Marine put down a loudmouth reserves soldier, people would see it differently. With that said, I am not defending the "cop", I'm defending a Marine, in another life, changing this kid from a tough guy into a respectable young man in seconds flat.

[jimnyc]

Since when is complaining that a cop was late responding considered fucking with them? Like I said, if the cops can't handle a victim who's mad about a slow response without intimidation and violence, then theres an issue with their dept's training. There are atleast ten different responses which could have been taken to diffuse the situation. A simple, "we had another call that had priority" would have sufficed without the arrogance of "im not on your clock" ...which, as public servants, they kinda are and I would have found it insulting! That's not Monday morning quarterbacking either; if the quarterback brings a bat out because people are trying to tackle him, he's pulled out on Sunday!

The fucking with them is puffing out of the chest, followed by the "know who you're talking to, I'm a US soldier bit". While the officer should certainly answer for his own actions, I'm simply pointing out that his complaint followed by the tough guy routine, didn't help his cause, and I would go as far as to say it WAS fucking with them.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=616647#post616647)
The cop was so huge he was pro football player size. And the young dude was the victim.

But suppose that was you. You want to be knocked to the ground and have some guy that huge almost hopping up and down on your chest? Didn't you see this event spashed all over the bay area tV news programs? This cop might be brought up on charges. He is in hot water.

Yeah, I rant when a cop hired to protect the public and victims punches out the victim and hops up and down on his chest. Damned right I stand up for victims of crimes.






=bingster;616692]I can only hope the cop does get disciplined. I really do agree with you on that.

I still got a thrill out of seeing that little punk bitch, whiny, piss down his leg, pussy, poor excuse for a soldier (probably worked as a cook or in supply) DEMAND respect from a police officer get his ass kicked!

I'll bet there is more to the story, like why all of his friends just kicked his ass.

Your first line to me of course I agree with.

From there down, I feel sorry if that was your form of entertainment.

Did you actually watch the full video where 2 cops were on top of the victim after being knocked down by what seems to me to be a man large enough to play lineman on a professional football team.

If you were upset that you were assaulted and the assailents were there too and it takes your cop 45 minutes to arrive, don't you suppose you might expect to not get belted to the pavement then be jumped up and down on?

The cop assaulted the victim. Why didn't he do that to the perps he got called to deal with?

Did you watch Jim[s OP where he included in second spot the ABC NEWS broadcast?

If this was handled properly, there would be no reason for ABC news to investigate it and report on it.

Vallejo already suffers an awful reputation. Sadly, those cops make Vallejo look like a pathetic place to live. Residents of that city know just how rogue the city is. I like pointing that out.

[logroller]

I disagree. I'd have to see a video of the cops approaching someone not acting like a total asshole and see how they respond then. I have a sneaky suspicion that if you don't fuck with them, the odds of them fucking with you in return gets much lower.
Since when is complaining that a cop was late responding considered fucking with them? Like I said, if the cops can't handle a victim who's mad about a slow response without intimidation and violence, then theres an issue with their dept's training. There are atleast ten different responses which could have been taken to diffuse the situation. A simple, "we had another call that had priority" would have sufficed without the arrogance of "im not on your clock" ...which, as public servants, they kinda are and I would have found it insulting! That's not Monday morning quarterbacking either; if the quarterback brings a bat out because people are trying to tackle him, he's pulled out on Sunday and arguably he shouldn't have been playing at all.

[Robert A Whit]

The fucking with them is puffing out of the chest, followed by the "know who you're talking to, I'm a US soldier bit". While the officer should certainly answer for his own actions, I'm simply pointing out that his complaint followed by the tough guy routine, didn't help his cause, and I would go as far as to say it WAS fucking with them.

A cop can hit you alongside the head because you had a puffed up chest?

I dunno about you Jim. Maybe you are just used to rogue cops. Look at your own OP and study the ABC 7 news report. Think it is normal to the news for cops to be that way?

You are making the cop seem the hero and the victim like scum.

We only saw the cops video. Pay closer attention to the ABC video. Two copa laid into that lad.

Then suppose you served in the Army. Clearly those guys lives are in danger so just how do you expect a guy who was sent to die for the Cop to act?

[Robert A Whit]

Make this your house just caught on fire.

You call 911

45 minutes later, the fire guys show up.

You protest them being late.

The fireman belts you alongside your head, and two of them put you down on the pavement and rock up and down with much of their weight on your chest.

Think the firemen are still your hero?

That cop serves the public. What you don't get is that those cops act like rogues and above the law all day long. Finally ABC TV decided something must be done.

[aboutime]

Why hasn't someone just suggested to jimnyc to rename this thread to the simpler...."WHY I HATE COPS!"

[Robert A Whit]

I'm not speaking for the West Coast or your neighborhood, Robert! I'm simply discussing what I saw in this particular video. I saw a few angles, taking into account that he is a police officer. I don't pretend to know enough about the law and police protocol to make a final decision on that. I'm simply saying, the kids tough guy routine, made me want to see someone put him in his place. The fact that it was a Marine was icing on the cake. If this was just a guy on the street, at a bar, on the beach, and a Marine put down a loudmouth reserves soldier, people would see it differently. With that said, I am not defending the "cop", I'm defending a Marine, in another life, changing this kid from a tough guy into a respectable young man in seconds flat.

1. Clearly you know nothing at all about that police department.
2. That victim does know.
3. If a citizen that was harmed can't express his anxiety to cops after he was assaulted, why have cops?
4. First he gets assaulted and calls 911. Do you suppose when he called 911 he figured a cop might show up?
5. 3/4 of an hour late?

Do you perhaps suppose the kid was in combat and had maybe after effects of combat duty?

I believe he did not believe the cop came to help him. I believe that the cop was not professional.

Why do you put the Marines above the Army?

In my army unit at Ft. Ord, CA, we had some guys who had been in the military before.

I recall one recruit that fought in combat in Korea. He then got released from the Army. Later in life, he decided to retire from the Army so he got back in. He had been out too long so they made him do basic and AIT again.

Another guy also got back in. He had been a US Marine. And like the other guy, due to regulations had to be retrained in his skills.

I talked to him since I was his Sgt in charge of him.

I says, what is tougher training, the Army or Marines?

He told me that in the Marines he had done a lot more marching in formation but we did a lot more running all over for training. Marines walked, we ran.

So tell me again why a Marine is better than the Army guy?

[Robert A Whit]

AT suggests Jim rename the thread to some silly thing like Why I hate cops.

I do not hate cops. I appreciate cops. I believe that they are at times in awful situations and die serving their place of operation.

But Vallejo, CA is not typical. There you FEAR cops. They will beat you up when you are the victim.

You have clearly seen actual video proof and the ABC 7 news broadcast. Are you thinking the reporters hate cops? If this was not reported, the cops could keep it secret.

I repeat. I don't hate GOOD cops. I don't like ROGUE cops.

[jimnyc]

Since when is complaining that a cop was late responding considered fucking with them? Like I said, if the cops can't handle a victim who's mad about a slow response without intimidation and violence, then theres an issue with their dept's training. There are atleast ten different responses which could have been taken to diffuse the situation. A simple, "we had another call that had priority" would have sufficed without the arrogance of "im not on your clock" ...which, as public servants, they kinda are and I would have found it insulting! That's not Monday morning quarterbacking either; if the quarterback brings a bat out because people are trying to tackle him, he's pulled out on Sunday and arguably he shouldn't have been playing at all.


The fucking with them is puffing out of the chest, followed by the "know who you're talking to, I'm a US soldier bit". While the officer should certainly answer for his own actions, I'm simply pointing out that his complaint followed by the tough guy routine, didn't help his cause, and I would go as far as to say it WAS fucking with them.

Already answered :)

[jimnyc]

A cop can hit you alongside the head because you had a puffed up chest?

I dunno about you Jim. Maybe you are just used to rogue cops. Look at your own OP and study the ABC 7 news report. Think it is normal to the news for cops to be that way?

You are making the cop seem the hero and the victim like scum.

We only saw the cops video. Pay closer attention to the ABC video. Two copa laid into that lad.

Then suppose you served in the Army. Clearly those guys lives are in danger so just how do you expect a guy who was sent to die for the Cop to act?

As to the bold - seriously, have you read my posts? I've said all along that since he was a PO, he had different standards and such to follow, and should not have hit him. I would have liked it much more had it been a civilian Marine that this guy got pissy with and THEN got put in his place.

[jimnyc]

Make this your house just caught on fire.

You call 911

45 minutes later, the fire guys show up.

You protest them being late.

The fireman belts you alongside your head, and two of them put you down on the pavement and rock up and down with much of their weight on your chest.

Think the firemen are still your hero?

That cop serves the public. What you don't get is that those cops act like rogues and above the law all day long. Finally ABC TV decided something must be done.

I wouldn't be bragging to the fireman about WHO I was and expect some sort of different treatment from him, because I was a soldier. And if it weren't against their regulations, and I DID confront one like that, I would fully expect to be smacked upside my head and placed back in reality.

[Robert A Whit]

ask yourself the same questions bigot; I am extremely rational; more so than you. You've been corrupted by the pig-headed men who came before you; nothin but a drone under the color of law. I pity you. All those abuses add up and then one day a guy like dorner wipes you off the map. Who was black btw; and no, my opinion of the culpability of the lapd isnt diminished by the fact he was black.
Criticism of a public official is a right of every American. If you don't like it, get a different job. When an officer fails at that, it undermines the faith that is required to maintain the public trust in the agency. When you show up in uniform, you must rise above your personal whim for the integrity of our entire system of laws. Its a great burden; but not one you should shuck off; laughingly sayin earlier he got pwned...so did those riverside PD officers by dorner then. Oh wait that's not very civil. That's tasteless. so, has my criticism insulted you and profession sufficiently that maybe you can assault me and talk your buddy into trumping up some bs charge that someone was deserving of having their skill rattled. Falsely attribute something else to make your fragile ego live up to superiority complex. Keep talking trash copper; i can move from my "amateur opinion" and ill start in with the higher than average drinking, domestic violence, and infidelity statistics for peace officers-- that's not an opinion, those are facts-- my opinion is its not the stress of the job, but rather that loose cannon assholes tend to like positions where they wield and abuse their authority.


I am trying to see why Taft talks that way. I accept that cops must stay on guard and make crystal clear what is going on before leaping to conclusions.

That soldier is a citizen. And he deserves the treatment victims deserve. This guy had two cops facing him. There was no need for the brutal cop to sucker punch him. Then two get down on his chest and try to harm him.

What kind of cop sees it as his duty to harm the 911 caller that way? I believe in the solders mind, the cop shows up not caring what the victim endured. Then gets all personal to a clearly upset victim.

Cops are trained to take control. If that means I can count on a cop to try to beat the shit out of me, I would not call the cops. Vallejo CA has one of those terrible cop attitudes. It's normal for them to bully people.

I will try to help excuse those cops to a degree. They endure lower pay due to the city going bankrupt. They are short handed. They also deal mostly with negros.

I admit that can sure get a man in a pissed off mood.

This time the victim was white. But his reward for calling 911 was he was slugged then assaulted more by two cops.

I mean, he told them upfront he was the victim that placed the call.

for that he gets slugged in his head.

If there is a law saying one may not mention he is a soldier, we live in the wrong country or city. I don't think for one instance the cops in my city would EVER do as those two cops did.

We don't hear bad things said about my city and that same reporter covers my city. But he decided to investigate Vallejo. That tell you anything?

[jimnyc]

So tell me again why a Marine is better than the Army guy?

He didn't start with the "know who you're talking to" shit, the Reserve did. I don't think any one soldier is better than another on paper, but in this issue, I see the Marine better, I just wish he had not been in a PO uniform.

[jimnyc]

With the police and military taken out of the equation... Sometimes some people just need an old fashioned ass kicking to adjust their attitude. Right or wrong, consequences or not, attitude was adjusted and I saw a completely new and polite young lad at the end of the video.

[Robert A Whit]

I wouldn't be bragging to the fireman about WHO I was and expect some sort of different treatment from him, because I was a soldier. And if it weren't against their regulations, and I DID confront one like that, I would fully expect to be smacked upside my head and placed back in reality.

I will say this much. My city is not like Vallejo. Maybe where you live, the cops have you well trained. (BTW, Vallejo is spoken as if it is Valleho, J sounds like an H)

Tell me why you believe that ABC TV investigative team decided this story must be told?

[Robert A Whit]

With the police and military taken out of the equation... Sometimes some people just need an old fashioned ass kicking to adjust their attitude. Right or wrong, consequences or not, attitude was adjusted and I saw a completely new and polite young lad at the end of the video.

Well yes, cops can subdue victions. In the meantime as the Vallejo Cop was punching and with great weight on top of the victim teaching him he must not ever again call 911, some of you like the way the huge cops treated the victim.

I plan to keep saying victim since he got beat up. And while the cops added to his hurt, the actual perps were probably laughing it all up.

Not only could they beat up a victim, but so could the cops.

Jim and Taft, realize how that video got into the hands of ABC TV.

Some insider at the Vallejo police department sent it to Channel 7 ABC news. Why send it if it was the right way for Cops to act?

The victim had no video.

A Whistle blower leaked it.

Again, this came from Vallejo. This has been stonewalled by the Vallejo officials.

Vallejo already had a terrible reputation.

Well thanks to two bully cops that had to show the victim he was not much of a soldier, they created an even worse reputation.

I was just discussing this with a close friend and she sides with me. LMAO

Course she lives in this area and knows that Vallejo has an awful reputation.

[jimnyc]

I will say this much. My city is not like Vallejo. Maybe where you live, the cops have you well trained. (BTW, Vallejo is spoken as if it is Valleho, J sounds like an H)

Tell me why you believe that ABC TV investigative team decided this story must be told?

Ok, now you're bugging me, Bobby!! I am not trained, I don't believe jack crap about ABC and their story and I don't think a cop should lay hands on someone unless they are in clear danger. Got that? All of my speaking has been primarily "scenarios", if it was man to man, soldier to soldier, no law or laws involved.

See the difference? I'm not defending the cop or his actions.

Can you dig it? :lol: (old Psycho reference)

[Robert A Whit]

He didn't start with the "know who you're talking to" shit, the Reserve did. I don't think any one soldier is better than another on paper, but in this issue, I see the Marine better, I just wish he had not been in a PO uniform.

Hey, an insider working for Vallejo turned the video over to the News department at ABC news.

You see what you think you see, I see a victime, waited for help for 45 minutes and no doubt when he got beat up he was still upset. But the cop sucker punches him and you approve?

Then puts his fat ass on the victim as if to crush him to death? Did you not notice the enormous size of that cop? Then you had two of them working the victim over.

So what the hell happened to the perps that beat up the soldier to begin with? You suppose they watched the cops finishing off the victim and laughed their asses off?

How can a cop arrest the actual perps when he did what the perps did to the same victim?

You put a lot of stock Jim in not what happened to the victim but believe in brute force by cops.

Well, that particular city has a very well earned reputation for police brutality. But you go ahead and keep siding with a brutal police force.

ABC TV however used the whistle blowers video and showed us what actually happens. Why do you suppose some city employee did that?

[aboutime]

Robert. Though many of us have tried, many different times, and ways. Why....I say again...Why must you always find something, or someone to argue about endlessly here?

You often complain that members accuse you, or call you names that you take so personally all the time.

Have you ever bothered to ask yourself? "Why does everyone here react as they do to me?"

Perhaps you should take a look at the tiresome, often instantly offensive, offending, simple reasons YOU ALONE find to start fights, arguments, or word wars with nearly everyone who DARES to respond to you..for any reason.

Most people ask common questions expecting common answers. But you seem to never be happy, or pacified with just common answers to questions. Instead. You make such a big deal out of WORDS, SEMANTICS, and RHETORIC...almost nobody feels comfortable talking to you here.
That is my HUMBLE Opinion. I know, YOU WILL find a reason to argue, dismiss, or be offended with what I said.
Providing the proof I suggested above.

[jimnyc]

You put a lot of stock Jim in not what happened to the victim but believe in brute force by cops.

But you go ahead and keep siding with a brutal police force.

Have you been reading my posts? Not glancing at them but READING them. I don't believe you are! That's not very nice, Roberto!

[Robert A Whit]

Ok, now you're bugging me, Bobby!! I am not trained, I don't believe jack crap about ABC and their story and I don't think a cop should lay hands on someone unless they are in clear danger. Got that? All of my speaking has been primarily "scenarios", if it was man to man, soldier to soldier, no law or laws involved.

See the difference? I'm not defending the cop or his actions.

Can you dig it? :lol: (old Psycho reference)

Oh hell, you started bugging me long ago on this issue. If you quit defending the cop, I can ask for no more. My son in law was a cop full time and my SIL no way was that way. He loved his job and he served people well. It bugs me that any cop can defend that rogue cop when he ought to defend the actual victims.

ABC I keep telling you only got that video because somebody in the city of Vallejo believed the cop did wrong. This happened over 1.5 years ago and by now I imagine some city worker is crapping his pants fearing he lost his or her job. But they stood up for the victim. I applaud a city worker willing to stand up and try to make sure victims don't get beat up by cops.

Jim, I dunno why but there are a small number of Bay Area Cities that have such cops. We had one Drug task force commander get put into jail for dealing in drugs. And he only went to jail for a few of the charges. But when a cop forgets he serves the public and commences to beat them up, he is not a good cop.

[jimnyc]

If you quit defending the cop, I can ask for no more.

I just stabbed myself in the eye with a fork.

[Robert A Whit]

Robert. Though many of us have tried, many different times, and ways. Why....I say again...Why must you always find something, or someone to argue about endlessly here?

You often complain that members accuse you, or call you names that you take so personally all the time.

Have you ever bothered to ask yourself? "Why does everyone here react as they do to me?"

Perhaps you should take a look at the tiresome, often instantly offensive, offending, simple reasons YOU ALONE find to start fights, arguments, or word wars with nearly everyone who DARES to respond to you..for any reason.

Most people ask common questions expecting common answers. But you seem to never be happy, or pacified with just common answers to questions. Instead. You make such a big deal out of WORDS, SEMANTICS, and RHETORIC...almost nobody feels comfortable talking to you here.

That is my HUMBLE Opinion. I know, YOU WILL find a reason to argue, dismiss, or be offended with what I said.
Providing the proof I suggested above.

So, yiour idea was you get to bash but I must not reply?

Are you that damned dumb?

Now from top to bottem of your issues, these are my comments to what you said.

Speak only for yourself. This forum is a place where discussion takes place. Some times the best threads are those where the arguments pro and con go into deep issues.

I wish you stuck to your own problems and stopped trying to put yourself up on the pedestal as you just tried to do. You are really out of line.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Of course you plan to prove this by posting examples? You are seeking self attention. I realize that. But add to the argument. Don't whine at me that I add to it.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Um no, i am not paranoid. I thus don't agree with your point at all. If you think you are their spokesperson, funny they are not joining you.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
You mean like you just did in your smart assed reply to me?

Funny you are the one and only whiner.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Oh you started slamming me as soon as I started posting. Having you smart ass me is no shock.<o:p></o:p>
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[jimnyc]

Adrenaline shouldn't be pumping 45 minutes after an altercation. And while I don't think the cops acted 100% properly - the young man is the one who escalated things 1st by scolding them about being late, then he did so a 2nd time. That's when the officer approached him. Before the officer can do anything, or even speak a word, that's when the young man started puffing out his chest. In many circles, and especially in police circles, that's a sign of aggression, someone acting like they want to fight. Then he verbalized it next, as if he were special and tough, because he was a US soldier. That had no bearing whatsoever and seemed to me to be yet another attempt at intimidation.

If it were just another guy on the street, and the marine responded as such, I would buy him a beer for placing the idiot in his place. Being a police officer though, he should have risen above the bait. Maybe cuffed the kid until he backed off his little perch. He had no right to place his hands on the young man unless he was truly threatened, which I'm not satisfied he was.

So while I do believe the officer was wrong, I also believe the kid needed to be put in his place - just maybe not from an officer of the law. Maybe now we know why his "friends" kicked his ass?

And right or wrong from either side, respect goes a long way. I thought the officers were respectful up until the slam down. respect will likely get you respect in return, disrespect the same.


You must be watching a different video than me. The cops did nothing or said anything inappropriate to him until he started giving them a hard time about taking 45 minutes to arrive. Then he puffed out his chest and did his "know who you're talking to" routine - and THEN the cop responded. He's a cop, and should have responded differently, but the chops busting was started by this young man.


Being it was a police officer, I agree with you, he shouldn't have laid a finger on this kid. But that doesn't absolve this kid. I wish it was just a civilian marine that he had ran into and played his tough guy routine, and then the marine kicked his ass. The kid fully deserved an ass kicking, just not from a PO.


I agree the cops RESPONSE was out of line, from what I can see. And also from what I can see, was a kid pushing the issue, acting tough, throwing out the soldier card and puffing out his chest when an officer approached him. He provoked the copper. That still doesn't give an officer of the law the right to assault someone, I agree. The whole scenario would have been perfect had the kid come across this guy out of uniform, and then pulled his routine, and put in his place by a Marine. The uniform and badge change things though.


That's not the way I saw it. This kid started with the 45 minutes first, then got even more pissed when the cop said he wasn't on his timetable. The cop appeared to take ONE step forward, not a single bit of aggression, and that's when the kid puffed up and started in with his know who you're talking to crap.

I still don't think that gives the PO the authority to do what he did, and I have more or less stated that from the beginning. But this kid being a punk did himself no favors. The ONLY reason I say the cop was at fault was because of his position and his sworn duties. Otherwise, I say it's a good thing that a Marine put the punk in his place.


Being a cop was involved, I have no alternative but to agree with you. The rules change when one is a police officer. My stance was that IF it wasn't a cop, and the kid was just puffing to a Marine unwittingly, it would have been nice to see the smart ass get put in his place.


The fucking with them is puffing out of the chest, followed by the "know who you're talking to, I'm a US soldier bit". While the officer should certainly answer for his own actions, I'm simply pointing out that his complaint followed by the tough guy routine, didn't help his cause, and I would go as far as to say it WAS fucking with them.


As to the bold - seriously, have you read my posts? I've said all along that since he was a PO, he had different standards and such to follow, and should not have hit him. I would have liked it much more had it been a civilian Marine that this guy got pissy with and THEN got put in his place.


Ok, now you're bugging me, Bobby!! I am not trained, I don't believe jack crap about ABC and their story and I don't think a cop should lay hands on someone unless they are in clear danger. Got that? All of my speaking has been primarily "scenarios", if it was man to man, soldier to soldier, no law or laws involved.


Just sayin!

[aboutime]

So, yiour idea was you get to bash but I must not reply?

Are you that damned dumb?

Now from top to bottem of your issues, these are my comments to what you said.

Speak only for yourself. This forum is a place where discussion takes place. Some times the best threads are those where the arguments pro and con go into deep issues.

I wish you stuck to your own problems and stopped trying to put yourself up on the pedestal as you just tried to do. You are really out of line.<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
Of course you plan to prove this by posting examples? You are seeking self attention. I realize that. But add to the argument. Don't whine at me that I add to it.<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
Um no, i am not paranoid. I thus don't agree with your point at all. If you think you are their spokesperson, funny they are not joining you.<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
You mean like you just did in your smart assed reply to me?

Funny you are the one and only whiner.<o:p></o>
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Oh you started slamming me as soon as I started posting. Having you smart ass me is no shock.<o:p></o>
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<o:p></o>




Okay Robert. Obviously. This is what you want me to say, to let you feel the POWER.

YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING YOU SAID.

Feel better?

[Robert A Whit]

I just stabbed myself in the eye with a fork.

I believe if you read it slower, you would see I am really lauding you if you actually have stopped going after the victim. I am trying to congratulate you.

[Robert A Whit]

Out of clear air, the topic was frozen by AT and he tried to change the topic to being about me.

And i did not let him get away with it.

Look at your own mirror AT. You see what appears to you.

I plan to discuss the corruption in Vallejo Ca.

You want to keep discussing only me,

carry on.

[aboutime]

Out of clear air, the topic was frozen by AT and he tried to change the topic to being about me.

And i did not let him get away with it.

Look at your own mirror AT. You see what appears to you.

I plan to discuss the corruption in Vallejo Ca.

You want to keep discussing only me,

carry on.


Whatever you say. I offered my opinion in reference to this topic. You were offended with my opinion. Not my problem.

[Robert A Whit]

Just sayin!

Does that mean for sure, pinky sure, that all along you and I have been on the same page Jim lad?


Whatever you say. I offered my opinion in reference to this topic. You were offended with my opinion. Not my problem.

I sure wish you stopped talking for me.

So, show this thread your evidence of me being offended?

It is not your problem since nobody but you has even tried to offend me.

You only because you devoted a post where your clear intention is to flat run me down.

So to speak, to put Robert into his place.

And only you would be the judge of doing that. What you hate is somebody standing up to you.

Also not my problem.

As to you slamming me, that had nothing at all to do with the topic of tis thread.

Nobody else posted to slam me.


Have you been reading my posts? Not glancing at them but READING them. I don't believe you are! That's not very nice, Roberto!

Jim, you posted a littany of your directed comments. i am sorry but when you kept putting down the soldier and of course saying the cop was wrong, the part i don't agree with is putting down the soldier. I agree with your attacks on the cop.

I have also clearly told why i am anti Vallejo. Not anti you or anti any other poster. I might find a way to be anti AT over his smarmy attack directed not at the topic, but only at me. I don't like that man trying to lecture me when I keep seeing others telling him off and many times at that.

He ought to study his own posts and look at only his mirror. I don't wish to ever attempt to make any member the butt of my posts. I had to in ATs case since he flat attacked me first.

Ho annointed him the bash Robert poster anyhow?

I believe that for the most part other posters are very respectful to me and I pray I am that same way back.

[logroller]

Already answered :)
At the point he puffed out his chest, he'd already been assaulted. I Know the law and I hope the cop does too. Not backing down to another's intimidating tactics is not a crime. If I walked up to you, a foot from your face, how would you feel-- threatened? If the officer had given some order and the guy did that, I might feel differently, but he didn't. He stepped up-- and you know as well as I, that is an aggressive act. If the guy hadn't been a cop, the guy would have punched him first, but instead he held his ground and let him know he wouldn't b intimidated. For that showing of resistance to the officer's unlawful aggression, he was battered. Next time maybe he should hit the cop first; maybe shoot him. It all seems hyperbolic until it actually happens, and it does.

[Robert A Whit]

At the point he puffed out his chest, he'd already been assaulted. I Know the law and I hope the cop does too. Not backing down to another's intimidating tactics is not a crime. If I walked up to you, a foot from your face, how would you feel-- threatened? If the officer had given some order and the guy did that, I might feel differently, but he didn't. He stepped up-- and you know as well as I, that is an aggressive act. If the guy hadn't been a cop, the guy would have punched him first, but instead he held his ground and let him know he wouldn't b intimidated. For that showing of resistance to the officer's unlawful aggression, he was battered. Next time maybe he should hit the cop first; maybe shoot him. It all seems hyperbolic until it actually happens, and it does.

Essentially this is the case.
1. Young man calls cops and of course tells 911 he is the victim of an assault.
2. Said cops show up, 45 minutes late, and act belligerent upon that being pointed out to the cops upon arrival.
3. Assuming they now have the full right, duty and obligation to assault the young man, they proceed to knock the victim to the ground, gather more glory to themselves by mounting the victim, now prone and proving to him they are so heavy they may crush out his life.

But more than that, the cops then covered up their crime.

But a city worker then exposed the crime, it was put on TV news and so now we are here arguing.

If a victim must fear cops, this is one good example of what that must be.

[jimnyc]

At the point he puffed out his chest, he'd already been assaulted. I Know the law and I hope the cop does too. Not backing down to another's intimidating tactics is not a crime. If I walked up to you, a foot from your face, how would you feel-- threatened? If the officer had given some order and the guy did that, I might feel differently, but he didn't. He stepped up-- and you know as well as I, that is an aggressive act. If the guy hadn't been a cop, the guy would have punched him first, but instead he held his ground and let him know he wouldn't b intimidated. For that showing of resistance to the officer's unlawful aggression, he was battered. Next time maybe he should hit the cop first; maybe shoot him. It all seems hyperbolic until it actually happens, and it does.

Looked to me like this kid would have gotten an ass kicking whether the Marine was a cop or not. Kinda looked like a skinny little punk if you ask me. He probably thought he could mouth off without consequences, knowing that police wouldn't lose their cool and assault him. AGAIN, this doesn't make what an officer of the law did right, but there's zero doubt in my mind that this kid was acting like a little shit and needed a smackdown. I'm not defending the cop. Hell, if you edited the video and only showed me the "victim", and I saw him spouting off the "know who you're talking to" crap, on that alone I would still be saying the same thing. His being a reserve should play no part in anything, other than to offer a level of intimidation. It failed, in epic fashion I might add.

[Robert A Whit]

Looked to me like this kid would have gotten an ass kicking whether the Marine was a cop or not. Kinda looked like a skinny little punk if you ask me. He probably thought he could mouth off without consequences, knowing that police wouldn't lose their cool and assault him. AGAIN, this doesn't make what an officer of the law did right, but there's zero doubt in my mind that this kid was acting like a little shit and needed a smackdown. I'm not defending the cop. Hell, if you edited the video and only showed me the "victim", and I saw him spouting off the "know who you're talking to" crap, on that alone I would still be saying the same thing. His being a reserve should play no part in anything, other than to offer a level of intimidation. It failed, in epic fashion I might add.

OK, this is why I gave you some shit. You keep attacking the victim.

Despite being told that a city worker saw the video and turned it over to the news.

The news would not have run with this had they blamed the young victim. Bear in mind, that kid was the victim. The actuall victim.

Then the cop beat him up.

God, you gotta love those Vallejo cops.

I hoped my last reply was the last. I don't think I can say this better if I tried a hundred more times. If some see the kid as deserving beat up, I feel sorry for them.

I see you did not say the cop is right, but man you sure hammer the victim.

Do you account for the so called punk serving in combat and coming back home with issues due to combat duty?

[jimnyc]

OK, this is why I gave you some shit. You keep attacking the victim.

Despite being told that a city worker saw the video and turned it over to the news.

The news would not have run with this had they blamed the young victim. Bear in mind, that kid was the victim. The actuall victim.

Then the cop beat him up.

God, you gotta love those Vallejo cops.

I hoped my last reply was the last. I don't think I can say this better if I tried a hundred more times. If some see the kid as deserving beat up, I feel sorry for them.

I see you did not say the cop is right, but man you sure hammer the victim.

Do you account for the so called punk serving in combat and coming back home with issues due to combat duty?

I can attack the actions of the guy who called the cops and still think the cops response was out of line. It's not that cut and dry to me. I see wrong in both. Sorry if that hurts, but that's how I see it.

[Robert A Whit]

I can attack the actions of the guy who called the cops and still think the cops response was out of line. It's not that cut and dry to me. I see wrong in both. Sorry if that hurts, but that's how I see it.

OK, but notice what we saw. This is the official version. I wish I could have seen it normally where say a third party took video of it.

I recall the cop getting all huffy and too damned soon. Had the young man laid a hand on the cop, I would be all over that young guy like white on rice. But I saw it come to blows. And the victim at no time hit the cop.

I think your problem is that you don't know Vallejo the way I do.

If a cop is rogue, that place is great for him to be a thug at.

Tell you this. ABC exposed it and I don't think it will die.

[jimnyc]

OK, but notice what we saw. This is the official version. I wish I could have seen it normally where say a third party took video of it.

I recall the cop getting all huffy and too damned soon. Had the young man laid a hand on the cop, I would be all over that young guy like white on rice. But I saw it come to blows. And the victim at no time hit the cop.

I think your problem is that you don't know Vallejo the way I do.

If a cop is rogue, that place is great for him to be a thug at.

Tell you this. ABC exposed it and I don't think it will die.

I have no problem. I see both as aggressors in this situation. While I don't think the cop had a right to take the kid down UFC style, as stated previously, I also don't think it was wise of the kid to bitch about times and act tough. While the kid may have called 45mins ago, for all we know this car might have been dispatched minutes earlier. They were both wrong. Only one wrong perhaps flies in the face of the law though. But that wouldn't change the fact, in my eyes, that the kid needed a little bit of an adjustment.

And not because it was a cop. Whether in a bar, at a baseball game, or wherever, if this kid complains and then talks the soldier shit and know who I am - I would be calling for the attitude adjustment.

[Robert A Whit]

I have no problem. I see both as aggressors in this situation. While I don't think the cop had a right to take the kid down UFC style, as stated previously, I also don't think it was wise of the kid to bitch about times and act tough. While the kid may have called 45mins ago, for all we know this car might have been dispatched minutes earlier. They were both wrong. Only one wrong perhaps flies in the face of the law though. But that wouldn't change the fact, in my eyes, that the kid needed a little bit of an adjustment.

And not because it was a cop. Whether in a bar, at a baseball game, or wherever, if this kid complains and then talks the soldier shit and know who I am - I would be calling for the attitude adjustment.


I was kinda hoping we said it all already.

Propotionality is part of the problem. The victim was upset. No doubt about that at all. But when a cop whops you up alongside that melon sitting on your shoulders, he can do some serious hurting. That cop was not small. The victim was of rather perhaps a bit undersized.

Imagine if this cop gets away with what he did. This is second nature to the cops of that city anyway. No wonder that city has this blood curdling awful reputation. But of course where you live, you would not know of this.

I do not at any point advocate for huge cops to smack any perp down for saying the cop is 45 minutes late. I do not advocate that any such cop add to the injury by hopping up and down in pairs on that persons chest. The victim if you noticed did not turn this in. But he no doubt is very frightened of the cops. Damned shame too. Cops should not be feared. They should be respected. I can't bring myself to respect cops that operate like the German gestapo used to operate. This is supposed to be America. Sad that cops can make it look like they might belng to the Nazi party.

[taft2012]

These libertarians are an annoying fringe element who overpopulate political forums. I find their arguments, to rewrite the way the entire world works to justify the legalization of marijuana in the USA, to be incredibly tiresome.

In their view, we can't blow a traitor to smithereens overseas who is working with our wartime enemy, because somehow they see a tenuous link that erodes their Constitutional views that marijuana should be legalized.

They want us to support domestic liberals in their quests to contort common sense search and seizure laws here in the USA, because that will make it harder for the police to bust them with marijuana. In fact, we have to erode government security structure itself, and expose ourselves to all kinds of dangers, both domestic and international, to safeguard their ability to smoke marijuana.

Any political leader who comes along supporting the legalization of marijuana, then *HIS* entire agenda then becomes theirs. If he happens to be an anti-semite and a racist, then being an anti-semite and a racist is clearly the best thing to be. These whackadoodles are dangerous.

But note, this pothead political leader must not be a liberal himself. These libertarians are infiltrators into the conservative movement. They are liberal alumni polluting our ranks. Fortunately, they are much more active in political forums and conservative talk-radio programs, than they are in actual voting numbers. How many of them can you spot here on Debate Policy?

Conservatives are not anarchists. We recognize there are legitimate functions of government, the most obvious being to protect us from enemies abroad and maintain order domestically. The starting line for Libertarian logic begins at the same point as that of liberals; hating those that engage in the most legitimate functions of government, our military and our police.

[red states rule]

Police brutality? Or perhaps a soldier biting off more than he can chew with a Marine?

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Seems to me a punk with an attitude was on the receiving end of an attitude adjustment

I hope this kid learned a lesson and will change his attitude and avoid future confirmations with Police and those who are not bound by the law

[Robert A Whit]

Every fucking time I watch Jim's video of ABC TV, channel 7, San Francisco, where you can see much more of the story, I get pissed off again.

Usually I don't get pissed off.

But a cop, being told by the police depart of a 911 call from a citizen, should not show up smoking mad.

I closely watched on the police camera trying to see who the aggressor is. The cop when the victim stated he was 45 minutes late, got angry. How damned dare you (my paraphrasing of course) mention I showed up late. I don't work for you on your schedule. Well, to this the kid says, I am a soldier. Smacking the victim upside his head, knocking the victim to the ground, replies, i am a Marine. So what is he doing wearing a cops uniform then? Marines have both an entry date and discharge date on their papers. They claim to always be a marine, so why not me claim I am always Army? I don't run around doing that.

Was this young man angry?

Well doh. After being in the proximate area of his beating, waiting on help, wouldn't you be a bit angry at a very long wait?

He needed calming down. Not hit in his head. Then the cop proceeds to kneel on his chest and another cop joins in.

What if that was your mother. She got beat up. She told the cop she waited far too long for help. The cop smacks her head and kneels on her.

Think you still side with the cop?

Why is it nice for cops to beat up victims and punish them while the actual punks that beat him up could be watching and laughing their asses off?

No, I do not side with the rogue cops of Vallejo. They are far too known as thug cops.

[aboutime]

Every fucking time I watch Jim's video of ABC TV, channel 7, San Francisco, where you can see much more of the story, I get pissed off again.

Usually I don't get pissed off.

But a cop, being told by the police depart of a 911 call from a citizen, should not show up smoking mad.

I closely watched on the police camera trying to see who the aggressor is. The cop when the victim stated he was 45 minutes late, got angry. How damned dare you (my paraphrasing of course) mention I showed up late. I don't work for you on your schedule. Well, to this the kid says, I am a soldier. Smacking the victim upside his head, knocking the victim to the ground, replies, i am a Marine. So what is he doing wearing a cops uniform then? Marines have both an entry date and discharge date on their papers. They claim to always be a marine, so why not me claim I am always Army? I don't run around doing that.

Was this young man angry?

Well doh. After being in the proximate area of his beating, waiting on help, wouldn't you be a bit angry at a very long wait?

He needed calming down. Not hit in his head. Then the cop proceeds to kneel on his chest and another cop joins in.

What if that was your mother. She got beat up. She told the cop she waited far too long for help. The cop smacks her head and kneels on her.

Think you still side with the cop?

Why is it nice for cops to beat up victims and punish them while the actual punks that beat him up could be watching and laughing their asses off?

No, I do not side with the rogue cops of Vallejo. They are far too known as thug cops.


Robert. Your Senile usage of the "F-BOMB" in statements like the one above cannot, and should not be ignored.

YOU are disgusting. And I don't care what YOU or anyone else says.
If you must talk that way to be noticed.
You have achieved your goal.
Now. SHUT UP!

My grandchildren have access to my PC while here at my home.
Your language is lower than Whale Sheit...and they know it.

[Robert A Whit]

Robert. Your Senile usage of the "F-BOMB" in statements like the one above cannot, and should not be ignored.

YOU are disgusting. And I don't care what YOU or anyone else says.
If you must talk that way to be noticed.
You have achieved your goal.
Now. SHUT UP!

My grandchildren have access to my PC while here at my home.
Your language is lower than Whale Sheit...and they know it.

Why is it when Jim says it, you don't commence whining?

Others also say it on this forum.

Yet I see no whining by you that your grand kids have unfettered use of your computer.

Look, tell them you are going to be talking to some adults and they should go out and play.

I have no control over your family. And unless you whine to the others using the F bomb, stop trying to point fingers at me.

Of all posters, you are one of the worst offenders on this forum. You think it is your daily duty to attack some poster. And you do it to many posters.

[aboutime]

Why is it when Jim says it, you don't commence whining?

Others also say it on this forum.

Yet I see no whining by you that your grand kids have unfettered use of your computer.

Look, tell them you are going to be talking to some adults and they should go out and play.

I have no control over your family. And unless you whine to the others using the F bomb, stop trying to point fingers at me.

Of all posters, you are one of the worst offenders on this forum. You think it is your daily duty to attack some poster. And you do it to many posters.


I would love to tell them that about adults. When you leave. That will be the case.

[Robert A Whit]

I would love to tell them that about adults. When you leave. That will be the case.
Hey clown, since you ignored the rest of my message, stop whining,. be gone. I see little of value from you and when I see value, I thank you.

Seldom do I run into a whiner of your category.

[logroller]

With the police and military taken out of the equation... Sometimes some people just need an old fashioned ass kicking to adjust their attitude. Right or wrong, consequences or not, attitude was adjusted and I saw a completely new and polite young lad at the end of the video.
An ends vs means argument? I suppose a working girl just needs a good gang rape to right her aggrieved path. Violence is rarely the solution to civil unrest. The officer could have said," I'm here now to handle your call, if your like to file a complaint about my timeliness, you are free do so-- what do you want to handle first? " rational appeal would have been just as effective at diffusing the situation. I had a similar experience with the local weatherman, had a delivery for him on a Saturday. During the week the commitment one is 10:30, Saturdays its 12. I was there at 11am and he says, "I've been waiting for this for hours, quite snidely. I told him I was sorry, but the commit time is 12pm on Saturday, and that I was actually going to have other deliveries which were going to be late, and i could have passed his house to make another later. again, a reasonable explanation should have been attempted first; not violence and intimidation. That's not civil either. As Robert pointed out, this guy reported having been assaulted, not surprisingly, his emotions ran high; an officer handles calls like this all the time; seems he should be able to handle the situation with more reason than the average joe.

[Robert A Whit]

An ends vs means argument? I suppose a working girl just needs a good gang rape to right her aggrieved path. Violence is rarely the solution to civil unrest. The officer could have said," I'm here now to handle your call, if your like to file a complaint about my timeliness, you are free do so-- what do you want to handle first? " rational appeal would have been just as effective at diffusing the situation. I had a similar experience with the local weatherman, had a delivery for him on a Saturday. During the week the commitment one is 10:30, Saturdays its 12. I was there at 11am and he says, "I've been waiting for this for hours, quite snidely. I told him I was sorry, but the commit time is 12pm on Saturday, and that I was actually going to have other deliveries which were going to be late, and i could have passed his house to make another later. again, a reasonable explanation should have been attempted first; not violence and intimidation. That's not civil either. As Robert pointed out, this guy reported having been assaulted, not surprisingly, his emotions ran high; an officer handles calls like this all the time; seems he should be able to handle the situation with more reason than the average joe.

Thanks my man for understanding.

I as you, feel the cop had to display top professionalism. Beating the victim is not true professionalism unless one is a boxer in a ring. The cop was not called on 911 to adjust the victims attitude. He called 911 seeking help, not a beating followed by two cops hopping up and down on his chest. Thanks to the news program, we know of this.

Sadly though, Vallejo does things like that a lot and their cops always get away with it.

Most of you don't know about that city history.

First, it is a high crime city. I tried to understand the cops point of view but each time I saw that video, it upset me again.

Then I had some poster lecturing me about a word that seems to me to be pretty commonly used. He did it to try to change the topic. As he does other times. I did not allow him to get away with that. He first whined that this topic being talked about by me, is wrong. I did something and he acted all pissed off.

Anyway, the city is well known around the Bay Area of San Francisco as a troubled city and one where the cops have a terrible reputation. We don't hear stuff like this very often even in some other troubled cities. We have unfortunately both a mix of very good cities with some bad cities.

Were I to rank the troubled cities, I would have to first compute populations and go by acts per 100000 and I don't plan to take it that far.

Oakland is the largest troubled city. They have murders virtually daily. And they are short handed of cops too due to the economic slow down.
Richmond is awful. The cops there however have not as many complaints against the cops as does Vallejo and Oakland. East Palo Alto once was a very crime ridden city and it has improved a lot if you compare it to say 20 years back. Of all those cities, Vallejo and Oakland have got so bad that they use outside cops to help them out. Oakland has the Highway patrol helping them a lot. Sheriffs offices also show up. Vallejo's cops need that adjustment. I think once they got short handed, the cops figured a grateful city would not fire them so they resorted to having thug cops. Hey, we could have hired the mafia you damned jerks in Vallejo and been about as safe. :rolleyes:

[aboutime]

Hey clown, since you ignored the rest of my message, stop whining,. be gone. I see little of value from you and when I see value, I thank you.

Seldom do I run into a whiner of your category.


You haven't looked into a mirror lately?

[logroller]

Looked to me like this kid would have gotten an ass kicking whether the Marine was a cop or not. Kinda looked like a skinny little punk if you ask me. He probably thought he could mouth off without consequences, knowing that police wouldn't lose their cool and assault him. AGAIN, this doesn't make what an officer of the law did right, but there's zero doubt in my mind that this kid was acting like a little shit and needed a smackdown. I'm not defending the cop. Hell, if you edited the video and only showed me the "victim", and I saw him spouting off the "know who you're talking to" crap, on that alone I would still be saying the same thing. His being a reserve should play no part in anything, other than to offer a level of intimidation. It failed, in epic fashion I might add.
As a point of law here in the United States of America, we can mouth off to public officials under the assumption there will be no violent retribution. But accepting your "in need of smackdown" rule, I suppose both bill maher and rush Limbaugh being knee-capped is in order-- both guys are first-rate assholes. :laugh:
But neither of them hold a position worthy of public confidence, neither do reservists--but cops do. I believe its an unreasonable expectation that punk-like behavior will be extinguished by any measure...reduced perhaps, but little good will come from penal methods, just less bad. it seems that the best method would be promoting civil behavior as positively preferable by exemplifying that which you believe best. From this, I think people shouldn't break the law to learn somebody something, but exemplify that which is right. We have exceptions for "fighting words", but just generally being an asshole, while not garnering any favor, is not beat-down worthy in a civil society.

[jimnyc]

An ends vs means argument? I suppose a working girl just needs a good gang rape to right her aggrieved path. Violence is rarely the solution to civil unrest. The officer could have said," I'm here now to handle your call, if your like to file a complaint about my timeliness, you are free do so-- what do you want to handle first? " rational appeal would have been just as effective at diffusing the situation. I had a similar experience with the local weatherman, had a delivery for him on a Saturday. During the week the commitment one is 10:30, Saturdays its 12. I was there at 11am and he says, "I've been waiting for this for hours, quite snidely. I told him I was sorry, but the commit time is 12pm on Saturday, and that I was actually going to have other deliveries which were going to be late, and i could have passed his house to make another later. again, a reasonable explanation should have been attempted first; not violence and intimidation. That's not civil either. As Robert pointed out, this guy reported having been assaulted, not surprisingly, his emotions ran high; an officer handles calls like this all the time; seems he should be able to handle the situation with more reason than the average joe.

I don't think working girls do anything to deserve an ass kicking. A shitty attitude and tough guy routine qualifies, IMO. We differ on that, that's cool. I come from a background where the tough guys sometimes need to be knocked down a peg. And I know what you're saying about the officer and what HE should/could have done, but that's an aside to me. EVEN IF the police took that approach, and diffused the situation, I would have looked at the kids actions prior to this and would have the same opinion.

[jimnyc]

As a point of law here in the United States of America, we can mouth off to public officials under the assumption there will be no violent retribution. But accepting your "in need of smackdown" rule, I suppose both bill maher and rush Limbaugh being knee-capped is in order-- both guys are first-rate assholes. :laugh:
But neither of them hold a position worthy of public confidence, neither do reservists--but cops do. I believe its an unreasonable expectation that punk-like behavior will be extinguished by any measure...reduced perhaps, but little good will come from penal methods, just less bad. it seems that the best method would be promoting civil behavior as positively preferable by exemplifying that which you believe best. From this, I think people shouldn't break the law to learn somebody something, but exemplify that which is right. We have exceptions for "fighting words", but just generally being an asshole, while not garnering any favor, is not beat-down worthy in a civil society.

You guys keep injecting the police officer back into the equation, when I said he was wrong a LONG time ago, and am saying on my own opinion, that I thought the kid needed a good ass kicking, just not from a police officer. YES, it is possible to separate the 2.

My comments are of his tough guy routine, If either of the other blowhards is out in public, and tries a similar routine - you betcha, I would say both need an attitude adjustment as well. Very rarely have I seen a loudmouth or someone preaching to be a tough guy, and not feel they are deserving of being put in their place. I've been put in my place a time or 2 in my life and have learned from it. Shit happens.

[logroller]

You guys keep injecting the police officer back into the equation, when I said he was wrong a LONG time ago, and am saying on my own opinion, that I thought the kid needed a good ass kicking, just not from a police officer. YES, it is possible to separate the 2.

My comments are of his tough guy routine, If either of the other blowhards is out in public, and tries a similar routine - you betcha, I would say both need an attitude adjustment as well. Very rarely have I seen a loudmouth or someone preaching to be a tough guy, and not feel they are deserving of being put in their place. I've been put in my place a time or 2 in my life and have learned from it. Shit happens.
I understand what you're saying is that the best way to diffuse the tough guy routine is to be a tougher. But that leads straight down a path of increasing violence in some hope that eventually attrition will resolve the issue. History shows that is not the case, only that violence will be in the purview of fewer, even more violent hands: totalitarianism. That's why I object to removal from the impetus that an officer was involved-- it's testament to why this behavior cannot be condoned by anyone. In a previous thread a quote from Nietzsche was submitted "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." This isn't just a out what a cop does, its about what we as a society condone with hypocrisy. We should not. It's not that I disagree with your concern, just your solution.

[jimnyc]

I understand what you're saying is that the best way to diffuse the tough guy routine is to be a tougher. But that leads straight down a path of increasing violence in some hope that eventually attrition will resolve the issue. History shows that is not the case, only that violence will be in the purview of fewer, even more violent hands: totalitarianism. That's why I object to removal from the impetus that an officer was involved-- it's testament to why this behavior cannot be condoned by anyone. In a previous thread a quote from Nietzsche was submitted "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." This isn't just a out what a cop does, its about what we as a society condone with hypocrisy. We should not. It's not that I disagree with your concern, just your solution.

I see what you're saying. I'm not saying it's always the answer, but like war, sometimes a necessary evil. I think in some cases a little brotherly love is a good thing. I grew up with 2 older brothers and an older sister. Sometimes I thought I was better than the lot, could do as I please and treat/speak to them as I please. I received many attitude adjustments over the years! Sometimes a little bang in the head is what is needed to bring some people back to reality, make them realize they aren't invincible, or better than others... And no, I'm not saying this in reference to any police confrontation. Life in general. Kind of like spanking. I think spanking can be a great tool. I know I received a bunch of those growing up!! And I look back and am ever so thankful for each and every one.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You guys keep injecting the police officer back into the equation, when I said he was wrong a LONG time ago, and am saying on my own opinion, that I thought the kid needed a good ass kicking, just not from a police officer. YES, it is possible to separate the 2.

My comments are of his tough guy routine, If either of the other blowhards is out in public, and tries a similar routine - you betcha, I would say both need an attitude adjustment as well. Very rarely have I seen a loudmouth or someone preaching to be a tough guy, and not feel they are deserving of being put in their place. I've been put in my place a time or 2 in my life and have learned from it. Shit happens.

We agree it seems. My post from many days past....

02-10-2013, 04:10 PM
#7 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?39232-Soldier-versus-Police-Officer&p=616361#post616361)
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http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jimnyc http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=616331#post616331)
I sort of agree, tough situation. But it pays NOT to be an asshole to the police, especially one that is a former US Marine. You start with "Know who you're talking to - US soldier" - you might have a soldier reply back to you!~



I saw nothing soldier like from the kid that got knocked down. That being said, the police officer had no legal right to hit a person that is not threatening that officer. As much as I'd like to side with the officer I can not in this case. Not unless the victim made a threatening move that was not on the video. Now the victim should have no been that mouthy and presenting himself as some badass soldier, obviously he was not. After all his roommate had beat his ass and thrown him out. Both parties were in the wrong IMHO. THE KID FOR HIS ATTITUDE AND THE OFFICER FOR STRIKING HIM. Pains me to have to say that because the kid needed an attitude adjustment but by law it was not right for the cop to just hit him. I once told a cop that next time he hits my younger brother with his nightstick will be his last!! I meant it and he did not try to arrest me on any charge because he knew he had hit my younger brother for no just cause. He never did such again to anybody that I ever heard about. I was 26 back then and didnt give a flying crap about what the hell happened to me. I just knew to take a stand and do or die trying..
A good cop is solid gold in my book , all others f-them feed 'em fishheads..-Tyr


Honor and courage, far more valuable than rubies and gold!

[Marcus Aurelius]

Just out of curiosity... for all those saying the cop has a history... I find it curious you're not asking if the 'know who you're talking to...' guy had any kind of history.

[Robert A Whit]

I see what you're saying. I'm not saying it's always the answer, but like war, sometimes a necessary evil. I think in some cases a little brotherly love is a good thing. I grew up with 2 older brothers and an older sister. Sometimes I thought I was better than the lot, could do as I please and treat/speak to them as I please. I received many attitude adjustments over the years! Sometimes a little bang in the head is what is needed to bring some people back to reality, make them realize they aren't invincible, or better than others... And no, I'm not saying this in reference to any police confrontation. Life in general. Kind of like spanking. I think spanking can be a great tool. I know I received a bunch of those growing up!! And I look back and am ever so thankful for each and every one.

You crack me up Jim. Who beat you up the most? Ass hole or the other brother? Don't tell me your sister whupped your ass. LMAO

[taft2012]

ask yourself the same questions bigot; I am extremely rational; more so than you.

Bullshit.

If the kid had been black in the same exact scenario, you would have been screaming "racism" instead of "abuse of authority!"

You know it, I know it, everyone here knows it, and Bob Dole knows it.

You have an agenda to tear down local law enforcement. Liberals have the same agenda, only their agenda is to eliminate local enforcement in favor of a mega-federal police department. Your agenda is to make it more difficult for local law enoforcement to catch you smoking a fat spliff.

Our drones are coming for you. :laugh2:

[tailfins]

Bullshit.

If the kid had been black in the same exact scenario, you would have been screaming "racism" instead of "abuse of authority!"

You know it, I know it, everyone here knows it, and Bob Dole knows it.

You have an agenda to tear down local law enforcement. Liberals have the same agenda, only their agenda is to eliminate local enforcement in favor of a mega-federal police department. Your agenda is to make it more difficult for local law enoforcement to catch you smoking a fat spliff.

Our drones are coming for you. :laugh2:


This is my perspective:
I don't like law enforcement, but my agenda isn't a mega-federal police. It's that too many people are locked up. There are better alternatives. Too may cops treat people like subjects, not citizens. "Tough on crime" has turned to tough on non-criminals. As far as the kid getting rough-up a bit, as long as no charges were laid on him, it's not a huge deal.

[jimnyc]

You crack me up Jim. Who beat you up the most? Ass hole or the other brother? Don't tell me your sister whupped your ass. LMAO

Both my brothers beat me up at times, although I always got my licks in. My sister tossed a knife at me once which pierced my back, all because I tried to steal her toast from the toaster! We were all evil little bastards.

[tailfins]

Both my brothers beat me up at times, although I always got my licks in. My sister tossed a knife at me once which pierced my back, all because I tried to steal her toast from the toaster! We were all evil little bastards.

It fits that you were raised in Jersey, perhaps Elizabeth?

[jimnyc]

It fits that you were raised in Jersey, perhaps Elizabeth?

About 10 miles South of Elizabeth - Woodbride/Colonia area.

[logroller]

Bullshit.

If the kid had been black in the same exact scenario, you would have been screaming "racism" instead of "abuse of authority!"

You know it, I know it, everyone here knows it, and Bob Dole knows it.

You have an agenda to tear down local law enforcement. Liberals have the same agenda, only their agenda is to eliminate local enforcement in favor of a mega-federal police department. Your agenda is to make it more difficult for local law enoforcement to catch you smoking a fat spliff.

Our drones are coming for you. :laugh2:
my agenda is the promotion of liberty and justice for all; whatever hypothetical propositions and false allegations you submit amount to little more than subterfuge. For I do not smoke marijuana, not because I fear the legal ramifications, but rather that I do not find drug use conducive to my personal goals. Nor do I believe my race superior, so I need not concern myself with whatever hypothetical prognostication you and bob dole rest your laurels upon. When approached by law enforcement, I am polite and courteous. Not that I am treated similarly all the time, but I am empathetic to the burdens law enforcement must endure. Likewise, the reason that law enforcement is burdensome is they must enforce the law and observe it. I merely observe it. Remove the latter, ignoring the restrictions of constitutional rights and not only is your burden greatly diminished but also the foundation of your endeavored duty. You can't have it both ways, with favorable and specialized treatment afforded the uniform, while disparaging the very foundation of that code.

Re: drones are coming for me...if that's so, im still waiting-- your timetable holds all the credibility of the Mayan calendar. :laugh2:

[aboutime]

my agenda is the promotion of liberty and justice for all; whatever hypothetical propositions and false allegations you submit amount to little more than subterfuge. For I do not smoke marijuana, not because I fear the legal ramifications, but rather that I do not find drug use conducive to my personal goals. Nor do I believe my race superior, so I need not concern myself with whatever hypothetical prognostication you and bob dole rest your laurels upon. When approached by law enforcement, I am polite and courteous. Not that I am treated similarly all the time, but I am empathetic to the burdens law enforcement must endure. Likewise, the reason that law enforcement is burdensome is they must enforce the law and observe it. I merely observe it. Remove the latter, ignoring the restrictions of constitutional rights and not only is your burden greatly diminished but also the foundation of your endeavored duty. You can't have it both ways, with favorable and specialized treatment afforded the uniform, while disparaging the very foundation of that code.

Re: drones are coming for me...if that's so, im still waiting-- your timetable holds all the credibility of the Mayan calendar. :laugh2:



logroller. YOU just confirmed, and provided proof as to why your eyes are ​BROWN.

[Robert A Whit]

This is my perspective:
I don't like law enforcement, but my agenda isn't a mega-federal police. It's that too many people are locked up. There are better alternatives. Too may cops treat people like subjects, not citizens. "Tough on crime" has turned to tough on non-criminals. As far as the kid getting rough-up a bit, as long as no charges were laid on him, it's not a huge deal.

I happen to like law enforcement. But in this case, I suspect by the time it is over, the lawyers and judges part of that equation may slap that cop around.

I also like cops. They may not often stop a crime but they sure collect evidence and put handcuffs on the perps.


Both my brothers beat me up at times, although I always got my licks in. My sister tossed a knife at me once which pierced my back, all because I tried to steal her toast from the toaster! We were all evil little bastards.

As the oldest, nobody beat me up. But I did not run around beating up my siblings either. When he grew up, only the youngest brother would dare to challenge me but I had him half scared to death.

Maybe that kid in the cop flick we are talking about was more like you than like me. Don't be so hard on yourself Jim.

Let me handle that part. :lol:


You haven't looked into a mirror lately?

I didn't recognize the face. Must have been you is why.


I can attack the actions of the guy who called the cops and still think the cops response was out of line. It's not that cut and dry to me. I see wrong in both. Sorry if that hurts, but that's how I see it.

Nah it does not hurt. I have no dog in that hunt. I expect though that the cop may be up on assault charges. I plan to try to find out.

[logroller]

logroller. YOU just confirmed, and provided proof as to why your eyes are ​BROWN.
Hazel-- blue/green actually. You hath shewn that you're full of shit; not that I needed confirmation.

[Robert A Whit]

These libertarians are an annoying fringe element who overpopulate political forums. I find their arguments, to rewrite the way the entire world works to justify the legalization of marijuana in the USA, to be incredibly tiresome.

In their view, we can't blow a traitor to smithereens overseas who is working with our wartime enemy, because somehow they see a tenuous link that erodes their Constitutional views that marijuana should be legalized.

They want us to support domestic liberals in their quests to contort common sense search and seizure laws here in the USA, because that will make it harder for the police to bust them with marijuana. In fact, we have to erode government security structure itself, and expose ourselves to all kinds of dangers, both domestic and international, to safeguard their ability to smoke marijuana.

Any political leader who comes along supporting the legalization of marijuana, then *HIS* entire agenda then becomes theirs. If he happens to be an anti-semite and a racist, then being an anti-semite and a racist is clearly the best thing to be. These whackadoodles are dangerous.

But note, this pothead political leader must not be a liberal himself. These libertarians are infiltrators into the conservative movement. They are liberal alumni polluting our ranks. Fortunately, they are much more active in political forums and conservative talk-radio programs, than they are in actual voting numbers. How many of them can you spot here on Debate Policy?

Conservatives are not anarchists. We recognize there are legitimate functions of government, the most obvious being to protect us from enemies abroad and maintain order domestically. The starting line for Libertarian logic begins at the same point as that of liberals; hating those that engage in the most legitimate functions of government, our military and our police.

Well, believe it or not, in California doctors prescribe it for patients.

Sticking to Marijuana, I see no purpose to telling a free human that he or she may not cause harm to their own body by smoking pot.

It's milder than booze. I know of no person tossing their cookies upon using it. I have at no time heard of any pot user getting into fights. It seems to me that it calms. Booze on the other hand can cause some kick ass fights.

We have some of the public running around demanding one causes no harm to their own body. Then we have states that have made the use of pot legal.

What would life be like if this country minded it's own business and stopped jailing people for hurting themselves. Matter of fact, seems to me that were drugs cheap, crime would not pay. Illegal drugs make crime pay very well with some risk of course.

I have a question for ya.

Do you believe that it should be illegal to drink alcohol?


my agenda is the promotion of liberty and justice for all; whatever hypothetical propositions and false allegations you submit amount to little more than subterfuge. For I do not smoke marijuana, not because I fear the legal ramifications, but rather that I do not find drug use conducive to my personal goals. Nor do I believe my race superior, so I need not concern myself with whatever hypothetical prognostication you and bob dole rest your laurels upon. When approached by law enforcement, I am polite and courteous. Not that I am treated similarly all the time, but I am empathetic to the burdens law enforcement must endure. Likewise, the reason that law enforcement is burdensome is they must enforce the law and observe it. I merely observe it. Remove the latter, ignoring the restrictions of constitutional rights and not only is your burden greatly diminished but also the foundation of your endeavored duty. You can't have it both ways, with favorable and specialized treatment afforded the uniform, while disparaging the very foundation of that code.

Re: drones are coming for me...if that's so, im still waiting-- your timetable holds all the credibility of the Mayan calendar. :laugh2:

Sounds to me as if you are a fine citizen. Don't know why Taft would feel the need to slash and burn you.

There is this awesome urge in some types of people where they say damned freedom, I plan to run all over you and take charge of your life.

Say, isn't that pretty much what slaves endured?

[Kathianne]

Just got off the phone with my brother, my SIL and him were out in AZ for a wedding and just got home. I asked him generally about this case, along with the killer cop brouhaha. Surprisingly to me, from what I recounted to him regarding the punk and Marine, he sided with the Marine. His basic premise was that if the complainant was aggressive both verbally, then by coming into the 'cop's' personal space, there was every reason to 'clock' him. The premise is he, (the cop), was avoiding the possibility of the civilian escalating to attacking him. The fact that the cop said he wouldn't charge him, agreed with that stance.

He also said the cop never should have gotten into a pissing match regarding Marines, just have clocked him.

[logroller]

Just got off the phone with my brother, my SIL and him were out in AZ for a wedding and just got home. I asked him generally about this case, along with the killer cop brouhaha. Surprisingly to me, from what I recounted to him regarding the punk and Marine, he sided with the Marine. His basic premise was that if the complainant was aggressive both verbally, then by coming into the 'cop's' personal space, there was every reason to 'clock' him. The premise is he, (the cop), was avoiding the possibility of the civilian escalating to attacking him. The fact that the cop said he wouldn't charge him, agreed with that stance.

He also said the cop never should have gotten into a pissing match regarding Marines, just have clocked him.
Suppose I disagree on the man coming into the "cop's" personal space, but rather, it was the other way around. Agree to disagree; suppose it should be put before a jury. Let the system work it out; not just sweep it under the rug under the auspices of teaching some punk a lesson.

[tailfins]

Suppose I disagree on the man coming into the "cop's" personal space, but rather, it was the other way around. Agree to disagree; suppose it should be put before a jury. Let the system work it out; not just sweep it under the rug under the auspices of teaching some punk a lesson.

Putting someone through the "system" is a huge punishment in itself. I guess the cop apologizing to the kid and that being the end of it would be too much to ask.

[Robert A Whit]

Just got off the phone with my brother, my SIL and him were out in AZ for a wedding and just got home. I asked him generally about this case, along with the killer cop brouhaha. Surprisingly to me, from what I recounted to him regarding the punk and Marine, he sided with the Marine. His basic premise was that if the complainant was aggressive both verbally, then by coming into the 'cop's' personal space, there was every reason to 'clock' him. The premise is he, (the cop), was avoiding the possibility of the civilian escalating to attacking him. The fact that the cop said he wouldn't charge him, agreed with that stance.

He also said the cop never should have gotten into a pissing match regarding Marines, just have clocked him.

Yet I have a hunch that by this time, a suit was filed against the cop and that some state agency is taking a hard look at this case.

You tipped me off to your bias by calling the victim a punk.

Why didn't you ask him to play that video by Channel 7 a few times?

I honestly believe some of you have missed the part where the cop got nasty to him right away.

You can't show me one sane person that had been beat up, called the cops, had to wait the most of an hour, then with a smile talked to a burly cop with attitude.

[Kathianne]

Suppose I disagree on the man coming into the "cop's" personal space, but rather, it was the other way around. Agree to disagree; suppose it should be put before a jury. Let the system work it out; not just sweep it under the rug under the auspices of teaching some punk a lesson.

His taking the 'army stance,' with puffed out chest, was 'getting into space,' along with the complaining about length of time it took to respond. As I said, my brother had 28 years as cop, last 12 as deputy chief of police of a city of over 40k. He is still teaching a course at Northwestern in police science and has been for over 15 years.

He's very educated and strongly believes in the police 'serving the community.' He's not a 'cops are always right' type of guy. He's also practical. The city this incident occurred in has had the police force cut by close to 1/3. They are in bankruptcy, only an ijit would fail to understand slower response times. His basic response is the cop should have told him to file a complaint on the response and clock him for the aggression. He also agreed with the decision not to charge him. As I said, he believed that the cop bringing up Marines was more blather and unnecessary and uncalled for.

[logroller]

Putting someone through the "system" is a huge punishment in itself. I guess the cop apologizing to the kid and that being the end of it would be too much to ask.
No too much to ask at all. Didn't seem particularly apologetic in the video though. More contrite, if not smug in his victory whilst the man mumbled incoherently after having had his brain rattled, gasping for air while being learned a lesson on respect. But hey, next time a cop gets pwned by someone, I'm not so sure an apology by the assailant would satisfy your own standards of justice. Perhaps you'd surprise me.

[Kathianne]

Yet I have a hunch that by this time, a suit was filed against the cop and that some state agency is taking a hard look at this case.

You tipped me off to your bias by calling the victim a punk.

Why didn't you ask him to play that video by Channel 7 a few times?

I honestly believe some of you have missed the part where the cop got nasty to him right away.

You can't show me one sane person that had been beat up, called the cops, had to wait the most of an hour, then with a smile talked to a burly cop with attitude.

Of course, you're onto me. :rolleyes: Get lost.

[Robert A Whit]

His taking the 'army stance,' with puffed out chest, was 'getting into space,' along with the complaining about length of time it took to respond. As I said, my brother had 28 years as cop, last 12 as deputy chief of police of a city of over 40k. He is still teaching a course at Northwestern in police science and has been for over 15 years.

He's very educated and strongly believes in the police 'serving the community.' He's not a 'cops are always right' type of guy. He's also practical. The city this incident occurred in has had the police force cut by close to 1/3. They are in bankruptcy, only an ijit would fail to understand slower response times. His basic response is the cop should have told him to file a complaint on the response and clock him for the aggression. He also agreed with the decision not to charge him. As I said, he believed that the cop bringing up Marines was more blather and unnecessary and uncalled for.

Suppose the cop smashed a woman's head like that?

But you did not tell all of the story. Why didn't you show him the channel 7 report? They explained what took place.

Said cop gets angry over his being whined at over being late to a crime scene. Hell, who can stand and wait for that long given the guys that beat him up were still there?

If you got raped, could you stand there for 45 minutes close to the rapist?

That young man was pretty scared. He commented that the cops showed up late. But the Cop did not say, well, we got here as fast as we could. He smart mouthed the victim. The victim then got a bit upset. Then this shit about the military and suddenly that burly cop knocks the kid down.

If you guys believe cops should do this, lord help us all. We are getting closer to the Nazi scheme where their cops wanted you afraid.

I would be afraid of any cop in Vallejo now that I saw the entire story.

[logroller]

His taking the 'army stance,' with puffed out chest, was 'getting into space,' along with the complaining about length of time it took to respond. As I said, my brother had 28 years as cop, last 12 as deputy chief of police of a city of over 40k. He is still teaching a course at Northwestern in police science and has been for over 15 years.

He's very educated and strongly believes in the police 'serving the community.' He's not a 'cops are always right' type of guy. He's also practical. The city this incident occurred in has had the police force cut by close to 1/3. They are in bankruptcy, only an ijit would fail to understand slower response times. His basic response is the cop should have told him to file a complaint on the response and clock him for the aggression. He also agreed with the decision not to charge him. As I said, he believed that the cop bringing up Marines was more blather and unnecessary and uncalled for.
Agreed. I'm just saying that the cop entered into his personal space in an attempt to intimidate him physically; which is an assault; and that as a result of this act, he incited the puffed out chest. I suppose one could claim his language, calling them assholes, would qualify as fighting words, but as I've said, LE officers are expected to weather such complaints as public officials.it's not that the guy really thinks they're assholes, its that he was upset and angry that he'd had to wait so long after having been (reportedly) assaulted already. For the same reason LE actions are typically immune from personal liability, so too must they slough off complaints directed at them upon the administrative authority. The officer showed poor discretion; could of said just what you did about decreased forces. If you don't like our response time, vote to change it. I shudder to think that man will be voting favorably towards law enforcement funding now.

[Robert A Whit]

Of course, you're onto me. :rolleyes: Get lost.

Your sorry insults only make you look bad.

[aboutime]

Your sorry insults only make you look bad.


Robert. You just don't get it, Do ya?

And you call me a Whiner? 4528

[Kathianne]

Agreed. I'm just saying that the cop entered into his personal space in an attempt to intimidate him physically; which is an assault; and that as a result of this act, he incited the puffed out chest. I suppose one could claim his language, calling them assholes, would qualify as fighting words, but as I've said, LE officers are expected to weather such complaints as public officials.it's not that the guy really thinks they're assholes, its that he was upset and angry that he'd had to wait so long after having been (reportedly) assaulted already. For the same reason LE actions are typically immune from personal liability, so too must they slough off complaints directed at them upon the administrative authority. The officer showed poor discretion; could of said just what you did about decreased forces. If you don't like our response time, vote to change it. I shudder to think that man will be voting favorably towards law enforcement funding now.

Actually the cop taking a step forward was not an assault. You are correct that it was meant to be intimidating, the punk should have recognized it as such.

Just calling names, I'd agree. It was the culmination of all the incidents that led to the cop striking the punk in the head. (Note, I'm not agreeing with the cop on where the punk was hit, it's obvious on the video). The punk may file charges, though he said he wasn't going to, it will go no where if he does. He was hit once and using discretion, not charged.

As my bro said, 'those that think a cop has to wait to be touched or hit, are wrong.' Long established that they are, not only allowed, but expected to take necessary action to protect themselves from harm and what is necessary to prevent an escalation of problems.

I was surprised when he said, 'Kat, you'd be surprised how many complainants are the ones who have to be 'clocked' and often arrested.' There may be reasons that the roomies kicked him out, that hasn't been brought out yet, to my knowledge.

[Robert A Whit]

You won't use your name About Time so you can hide from the rest of us.

And of course I get you.

You love to taunt and insult.

That is why you remain almost nameless.

[Kathianne]

Your sorry insults only make you look bad.

Not when directed at the correct target, sorry.

[tailfins]

Suppose the cop smashed a woman's head like that?

But you did not tell all of the story. Why didn't you show him the channel 7 report? They explained what took place.

Said cop gets angry over his being whined at over being late to a crime scene. Hell, who can stand and wait for that long given the guys that beat him up were still there?

If you got raped, could you stand there for 45 minutes close to the rapist?

That young man was pretty scared. He commented that the cops showed up late. But the Cop did not say, well, we got here as fast as we could. He smart mouthed the victim. The victim then got a bit upset. Then this shit about the military and suddenly that burly cop knocks the kid down.

If you guys believe cops should do this, lord help us all. We are getting closer to the Nazi scheme where their cops wanted you afraid.

I would be afraid of any cop in Vallejo now that I saw the entire story.

Cops/prosecutors beat up on people every day, giving them lasting legal problems. If the kid won't sue, why can't everything be put to rest with an apology? Did he sustain long term injuries? Getting beat up is better than spending a year fighting frivolous criminal charges.

[Robert A Whit]

Actually the cop taking a step forward was not an assault. You are correct that it was meant to be intimidating, the punk should have recognized it as such.

Just calling names, I'd agree. It was the culmination of all the incidents that led to the cop striking the punk in the head. (Note, I'm not agreeing with the cop on where the punk was hit, it's obvious on the video). The punk may file charges, though he said he wasn't going to, it will go no where if he does. He was hit once and using discretion, not charged.

As my bro said, 'those that think a cop has to wait to be touched or hit, are wrong.' Long established that they are, not only allowed, but expected to take necessary action to protect themselves from harm and what is necessary to prevent an escalation of problems.

I was surprised when he said, 'Kat, you'd be surprised how many complainants are the ones who have to be 'clocked' and often arrested.' There may be reasons that the roomies kicked him out, that hasn't been brought out yet, to my knowledge.

You guys must have completely blanked out the Rodney King case where he was also beaten up.

Those cops in Vallejo plain beat this victim up. But go ahead, to you he is the pumk.

When two burley cops climb up on top of you, maybe then and only then you will finally get it. Then if you ever get it, explain it to that dude that calls himself About Time. No idea who he is since he hides behind a fake name.

[aboutime]

You won't use your name About Time so you can hide from the rest of us.

And of course I get you.

You love to taunt and insult.

That is why you remain almost nameless.


Funny stuff Robert. Endlessly funny.

[Kathianne]

You guys must have completely blanked out the Rodney King case where he was also beaten up.

Those cops in Vallejo plain beat this victim up. But go ahead, to you he is the pumk.

When two burley cops climb up on top of you, maybe then and only then you will finally get it. Then if you ever get it, explain it to that dude that calls himself About Time. No idea who he is since he hides behind a fake name.

You are comparing his treatment with what happened with Rodney King? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[tailfins]

You guys must have completely blanked out the Rodney King case where he was also beaten up.

Those cops in Vallejo plain beat this victim up. But go ahead, to you he is the pumk.

When two burley cops climb up on top of you, maybe then and only then you will finally get it. Then if you ever get it, explain it to that dude that calls himself About Time. No idea who he is since he hides behind a fake name.

It's STILL better than fighting trumped up charges. It's almost as if Mexico's criminal justice system is no worse than ours. A beating lasts a week; charges last a year or more even if found not guilty at trial.

[jimnyc]

Many moons ago I had to take some abuse at the hands of a NJ State Trooper. A friend and I were returning from NYC where we of course scored a few grams of the wacky tobacky. For those not in the know, that's barely anything. Anyway, he caught us on different stories and demanded to know what we were hiding. Damn, I told him it was in my cigarette pack, and he couldn't find it! He had to have me show him, which means he likely never would have found it. Anyway, he tells me to open it up and dump it out on the other side of the railing. Then he has both of us hop over and do 50 pushups apiece. While doing them he found the fireworks in my trunk! LOL I was pulled over on the NJ Turnpike, alongside Newark Airport, which has what appears to be a tiny creek there, likely sewage. He had me place my fireworks in the water. Then he told me to drive to the next exit, get off the highway, and never get back on HIS highway with drugs ever again.

Can you believe he robbed us like that?

[Kathianne]

Many moons ago I had to take some abuse at the hands of a NJ State Trooper. A friend and I were returning from NYC where we of course scored a few grams of the wacky tobacky. For those not in the know, that's barely anything. Anyway, he caught us on different stories and demanded to know what we were hiding. Damn, I told him it was in my cigarette pack, and he couldn't find it! He had to have me show him, which means he likely never would have found it. Anyway, he tells me to open it up and dump it out on the other side of the railing. Then he has both of us hop over and do 50 pushups apiece. While doing them he found the fireworks in my trunk! LOL I was pulled over on the NJ Turnpike, alongside Newark Airport, which has what appears to be a tiny creek there, likely sewage. He had me place my fireworks in the water. Then he told me to drive to the next exit, get off the highway, and never get back on HIS highway with drugs ever again.

Can you believe he robbed us like that?

Now that sounds a lot like my brother in wanting to use 'discretionary power' on whom to charge and not. His biggest headaches were in the past 15 years, as more and more discretion was eliminated and mandatory charges were required. How soured? Enough to convince my son not to pursue police department, in spite of graduating with high honors in the field. He convinced my son that the days of police being a positive influence in community were at an end or ending.

[Robert A Whit]

You are comparing his treatment with what happened with Rodney King? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Certainly.

Cops show up.
Cop assaults victim.
Several cops mount victim causing bodily harm.

Rodney King won several million dollars.

This victim has not yet been heard in court.

Time will tell.

I have long suspected that the common man, by refusing to stand up for the common man, diminishes not only him, but themselves.

Reading this forum proves to me that we are closer to a totalitarian nation than one might believe.

[tailfins]

Certainly.

Cops show up.
Cop assaults victim.
Several cops mount victim causing bodily harm.

Rodney King won several million dollars.

This victim has not yet been heard in court.

Time will tell.

I have long suspected that the common man, by refusing to stand up for the common man, diminishes not only him, but themselves.

Reading this forum proves to me that we are closer to a totalitarian nation than one might believe.

How far do you think we are to the point of emigrating to an indigenous tribe would be an improvement?

[Robert A Whit]

Many moons ago I had to take some abuse at the hands of a NJ State Trooper. A friend and I were returning from NYC where we of course scored a few grams of the wacky tobacky. For those not in the know, that's barely anything. Anyway, he caught us on different stories and demanded to know what we were hiding. Damn, I told him it was in my cigarette pack, and he couldn't find it! He had to have me show him, which means he likely never would have found it. Anyway, he tells me to open it up and dump it out on the other side of the railing. Then he has both of us hop over and do 50 pushups apiece. While doing them he found the fireworks in my trunk! LOL I was pulled over on the NJ Turnpike, alongside Newark Airport, which has what appears to be a tiny creek there, likely sewage. He had me place my fireworks in the water. Then he told me to drive to the next exit, get off the highway, and never get back on HIS highway with drugs ever again.

Can you believe he robbed us like that?


Cops pull a lot of illegal stunts. Some cops are crooked as a dog's hind leg.

I however believe that the good cops outnumber the bad cops.

Years and years ago, I got busted for driving about 125 mph in a 25 mph zone. The entire story is highly funny. But the main thing is the cop decided upon driving me to jail to not jail me. Then he kept cutting down the speed on the ticket he said he would write. I had the benefit of talking to him in his patrol car on the way to jail. Anyway, he and I became good friends. I did favors for him. He even drove my car and said no patrol car could catch my car. He would fix all of my tickets with the judge. I forgot above, the cop did not even give me a citation. He took me back to my car and I drove home.

One other time, I raced some guys Corvette on a state highway. I beat the hell out of the Corvette and pulled off an exit. A cop was behind us and he kept going after the Corvette.

Later down in town I drove past him, not knowing he got the Corvette. I was doing approved speed. Suddenly he fires up and turns on his red lights. I stop and he tells me to come look at the hood of his state patrol car. It was warm weather and dust was on his hood. On his hood he had used his finger to show my car license number.

Well, he let me go.

I told my pal who also was a state highway patrol what happened and he said the reason I got no ticket is that no judge would let that be evidence. He was way too far behind me and there was no way he saw it on the state highway. It was pitch black at night. Then he could not place me behind the wheel in the drag race.

You got to watch cops Jim. They will hang you and do it illegally.

[logroller]

Actually the cop taking a step forward was not an assault. You are correct that it was meant to be intimidating, the punk should have recognized it as such.

Just calling names, I'd agree. It was the culmination of all the incidents that led to the cop striking the punk in the head. (Note, I'm not agreeing with the cop on where the punk was hit, it's obvious on the video). The punk may file charges, though he said he wasn't going to, it will go no where if he does. He was hit once and using discretion, not charged.

As my bro said, 'those that think a cop has to wait to be touched or hit, are wrong.' Long established that they are, not only allowed, but expected to take necessary action to protect themselves from harm and what is necessary to prevent an escalation of problems.

I was surprised when he said, 'Kat, you'd be surprised how many complainants are the ones who have to be 'clocked' and often arrested.' There may be reasons that the roomies kicked him out, that hasn't been brought out yet, to my knowledge.


Ca criminal code 240. An assault is an unlawful attempt, coupled with present ability, to commit a violent injury upon another person.

This intimidation tactic of approaching the man, arguably, had lawful merit. Again, hinging upon whether the overall tone regardless of the complaint over the officers' response time qualifies as fighting words. While I'm willing to grant a fair degree of discretion, as you stipulated, the impetus to preemptive violence is in subverting the escalation of greater violence; but the intimidation of the man clearly failed to satisfy the modus operandi of quelling violence. Indeed, it incited a rebuffed response (puffed out chest) along with him identifying himself as a man deserving of respect (similarly to what LE claims the officer may have intended to convey with his intimidation tactic). This aggravated the circumstance, it certainly didn't mitigate anything. In taking the sum of the circumstances into consideration, consider the following:


241.8. (a) Any person who commits an assault against a member of
the United States Armed Forces because of the victim's service in the
United States Armed Forces shall be punished by a fine not exceeding
two thousand dollars ($2,000), by imprisonment in a county jail for
a period not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and
imprisonment.
(b) "Because of" means that the bias motivation must be a cause in
fact of the assault, whether or not other causes exist. When
multiple concurrent motives exist, the prohibited bias must be a
substantial factor in bringing about the assault.

The last words before:
man: "us soldier bro-- know who youre talking to. "
cop: "ARE YOU GETTING IN MY FACE?"
man: "Are you gettin in my face? you stepped forward to me, I DID NOT STEP FORWARD TO YOU"
cop: "im trying to talk..." SMACK!
And What were the first words out of the cop's immediately following? "I know who I'm talking to, and you're down-- you understand that -- so, you're talking to us marine." So the impetus for the attack had much to do with the service status-- not preventing violence or whatever other claims of legitimacy the violence may presuppose...I suppose boys will be boys; kinda growing tired of the discussion tbh; but they both need a night in the brig IMHO.


btw Jim, I counted three (and a half) steps up by the officer.

[Robert A Whit]

Ca criminal code 240. An assault is an unlawful attempt, coupled with present ability, to commit a violent injury upon another person.

This intimidation tactic of approaching the man, arguably, had lawful merit. Again, hinging upon whether the overall tone regardless of the complaint over the officers' response time qualifies as fighting words. While I'm willing to grant a fair degree of discretion, as you stipulated, the impetus to preemptive violence is in subverting the escalation of greater violence; but the intimidation of the man clearly failed to satisfy the modus operandi of quelling violence. Indeed, it incited a rebuffed response (puffed out chest) along with him identifying himself as a man deserving of respect (similarly to what LE claims the officer may have intended to convey with his intimidation tactic). This aggravated the circumstance, it certainly didn't mitigate anything. In taking the sum of the circumstances into consideration, consider the following:


241.8. (a) Any person who commits an assault against a member of
the United States Armed Forces because of the victim's service in the
United States Armed Forces shall be punished by a fine not exceeding
two thousand dollars ($2,000), by imprisonment in a county jail for
a period not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and
imprisonment.
(b) "Because of" means that the bias motivation must be a cause in
fact of the assault, whether or not other causes exist. When
multiple concurrent motives exist, the prohibited bias must be a
substantial factor in bringing about the assault.

The last words before:
man: "us soldier bro-- know who youre talking to. "
cop: "ARE YOU GETTING IN MY FACE?"
man: "Are you gettin in my face? you stepped forward to me, I DID NOT STEP FORWARD TO YOU"
cop: "im trying to talk..." SMACK!
And What were the first words out of the cop's immediately following? "I know who I'm talking to, and you're down-- you understand that -- so, you're talking to us marine." So the impetus for the attack had much to do with the service status-- not preventing violence or whatever other claims of legitimacy the violence may presuppose...I suppose boys will be boys; kinda growing tired of the discussion tbh; but they both need a night in the brig IMHO.


btw Jim, I counted three (and a half) steps up by the officer.

Hey man, fine work. I am in awe. Finally somebody applies facts, common sense and law to the same event.

[jimnyc]

btw Jim, I counted three (and a half) steps up by the officer.

And a couple from the young soldier. And the tough talk. Neither innocent, IMO. The cop could have taken 12 steps, and I still believe the kid was in need of an attitude adjustment, just not from the police. Nothing put forward will change the fact that the kid was being a dick and then tried acting tough with his soldier routine. That certainly does not allow a police officer to strike him, but I can still think the kid needs a little putting in his place.

[Robert A Whit]

And a couple from the young soldier. And the tough talk. Neither innocent, IMO. The cop could have taken 12 steps, and I still believe the kid was in need of an attitude adjustment, just not from the police. Nothing put forward will change the fact that the kid was being a dick and then tried acting tough with his soldier routine. That certainly does not allow a police officer to strike him, but I can still think the kid needs a little putting in his place.

Well, if some cop hits your wife for a similar event, maybe then you will get it.

[jimnyc]

Well, if some cop hits your wife for a similar event, maybe then you will get it.

If my wife is out there being a smart ass, and then acting tough and pointing out she's a soldier, she would need an attitude adjustment too, probably from another gal. It shouldn't be from the police of course, just as I stated with this guy. Regardless, I don't think I would see my wife in this kids predicament and very doubtful she would act like him.

[Robert A Whit]

If my wife is out there being a smart ass, and then acting tough and pointing out she's a soldier, she would need an attitude adjustment too, probably from another gal. It shouldn't be from the police of course, just as I stated with this guy. Regardless, I don't think I would see my wife in this kids predicament and very doubtful she would act like him.

When that rogue cop hit that victim, the victim hit the jackpot. Watch him take Vallejo to the cleaners.

[logroller]

Well, if some cop hits your wife for a similar event, maybe then you will get it.

Such an emotional ploy cheapens rational arguments.

[Robert A Whit]

Such an emotional ploy cheapens rational arguments.

Yup, you have your opinion.

I have mine.

I am still waiting on a rational argument from Jim.

[Kathianne]

Such an emotional ploy cheapens rational arguments.

None of his analogies work, other than in his own mind.

[logroller]

Yup, you have your opinion.

I have mine.

I am still waiting on a rational argument from Jim.
It's not my opinion I presented; its been long held to be fact that emotional appeal, colloquially, a red herring, often results in logical fallacy.
An appeal to emotion is a type of argument which attempts to arouse the emotions of its audience in order to gain acceptance of its conclusion. Despite the example of Mr. Spock from the original Star Trek television series, emotion is not always out of place in logical thinking. However, there is no doubt that strong emotions can subvert rational thought, and playing upon emotions in an argument is often fallacious. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/emotiona.html

[aboutime]

None of his analogies work, other than in his own mind.

Kathianne. Though I will once again be accused of whining here. It seems we are all seeing an endless string of analogies, all of which are What If's, or Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda's.

[Robert A Whit]

None of his analogies work, other than in his own mind.

Who is his?


Kathianne. Though I will once again be accused of whining here. It seems we are all seeing an endless string of analogies, all of which are What If's, or Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda's.

Thanks, you took care of that problem by what you admitted to.


It's not my opinion I presented; its been long held to be fact that emotional appeal, colloquially, a red herring, often results in logical fallacy. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/emotiona.html

Your fallacy is that it was emotion.

[logroller]

Your fallacy is that it was emotion.
Then pray tell; of what relevance was Jim's wife in the proposition?

[Robert A Whit]

Then pray tell; of what relevance was Jim's wife in the proposition?

Seems the way she treats him he might toss her onto a log fire.

[red states rule]

And a couple from the young soldier. And the tough talk. Neither innocent, IMO. The cop could have taken 12 steps, and I still believe the kid was in need of an attitude adjustment, just not from the police. Nothing put forward will change the fact that the kid was being a dick and then tried acting tough with his soldier routine. That certainly does not allow a police officer to strike him, but I can still think the kid needs a little putting in his place.

I am glad the kid did this to a Police Officer rather than another punk with a gun

At least the kid is still breathing and can learn from the attitude adjustment

[logroller]

Seems the way she treats him he might toss her onto a log fire.

:wtf:

[taft2012]

This is my perspective:
I don't like law enforcement, but my agenda isn't a mega-federal police. It's that too many people are locked up. There are better alternatives. Too may cops treat people like subjects, not citizens. "Tough on crime" has turned to tough on non-criminals.

At this point you might as well tell us what you were arrested and/or sent to prison for. One need not be a combination of Sherlock Holmes and Sigmund Freud to figure out where you're coming from.

I heard a similar tirade when I was younger from a friend's father. Then a few months later I read in the local paper that he pleaded guilty to trying to hire an undercover detective to kill his wife.




Reading this forum proves to me that we are closer to a totalitarian nation than one might believe.

Clearly the first sign of impending totalitarianism is when cops no longer allow mouthy little snot-noses to get up their faces. :laugh2:

BTW: you might want to consider how many totalitarian systems have/had state and local governments independent of the centralized national government?


Cops pull a lot of illegal stunts. Some cops are crooked as a dog's hind leg.

I however believe that the good cops outnumber the bad cops.



Hey, you know what? Since as a civilian you feel you have the expertise to speak about all cops as an entity, as a cop I guess have the expertise to discuss all civilians as an entity.

I believe the good civilians outnumber the bad ones, and that you're a big throbbing cock. :laugh:

[jimnyc]

Yup, you have your opinion.

I have mine.

I am still waiting on a rational argument from Jim.

And yet someone hitting the "jackpot" is a rational argument?

I gave rational arguments all along. The guy acted like an asshole, IMO he deserved to be put in his place. I also acknowledged all along, that being the other guy was an officer of the law, he had no right to place his hands on the other guy. I would defend his actions if he were a civilian, but cannot do so since he is a cop - different set of rules. If that's not rational enough for you, too bad.

[tailfins]

Seems the way she treats him he might toss her onto a log fire.

Hey, you're working my side of the street! (To quote what Corporal Klinger said to the man talking to and petting Mr. Sock)



At this point you might as well tell us what you were arrested and/or sent to prison for. One need not be a combination of Sherlock Holmes and Sigmund Freud to figure out where you're coming from.

I heard a similar tirade when I was younger from a friend's father. Then a few months later I read in the local paper that he pleaded guilty to trying to hire an undercover detective to kill his wife.

Well, you know trials are just too expensive and should be done away with. After all, if someone weren't guilty, the cops wouldn't arrest them, right? FYI: I have been convicted of nothing. Cops deserve ZERO community support. It ain't Dragnet-1968 anymore.

[taft2012]

Well, you know trials are just too expensive and should be done away with. After all, if someone weren't guilty, the cops wouldn't arrest them, right? FYI: I have been convicted of nothing.

That's about what I expected.

OJ Simpson was able to make the same boast for a long time...

[aboutime]

That's about what I expected.

OJ Simpson was able to make the same boast for a long time...


And, let's not forget the Charles Manson trial, or further back to the Nuremburg trials.

Kinda takes away that "Innocent until proven guilty" idea. Doesn't it???
If someone is being held without bail, in a jail, or prison before a trial. That kinda makes them GUILTY right away.

[Robert A Whit]

Hey, you know what? Since as a civilian you feel you have the expertise to speak about all cops as an entity, as a cop I guess have the expertise to discuss all civilians as an entity.

I believe the good civilians outnumber the bad ones, and that you're a big throbbing cock. :laugh:


You resent me saying that most cops are honest and treat people properly eh.

You resent me saying that there are some bad apple cops, eh?

Dorner remind you of a cop gone bad, eh?

Well, all I can see from you is a cop that loves beating up humans so you put on the uniform to allow you to get away with it.

Now who is the big throbbing cock?

[jimnyc]

Maybe we can stop talking about "members". Anything with the word "throbbing" in it makes me tremble in fear. :slap: :beer:

[Robert A Whit]

And yet someone hitting the "jackpot" is a rational argument?

I gave rational arguments all along. The guy acted like an asshole, IMO he deserved to be put in his place. I also acknowledged all along, that being the other guy was an officer of the law, he had no right to place his hands on the other guy. I would defend his actions if he were a civilian, but cannot do so since he is a cop - different set of rules. If that's not rational enough for you, too bad.

Guy says I am a solder and you say, sure, and then you pound him.

Do you realize they put people in jail for assault?

Just because the perpetrator is a cop does not put him above the law. I keep forgetting you live in an area of violence and cops gone bad. Do you understand you are speaking against both of them? I would estimate that you mean the cop should not have hit him then once forced down, proceed to put his full weight on the kid.

Why send mixed messages Jim?

That reminds me of some guy saying she did not deserve to be raped but my god, the beautiful woman was almost naked and besides I figured she needed some.

[jimnyc]

Guy says I am a solder and you say, sure, and then you pound him.

Do you realize they put people in jail for assault?

Just because the perpetrator is a cop does not put him above the law. I keep forgetting you live in an area of violence and cops gone bad. Do you understand you are speaking against both of them? I would estimate that you mean the cop should not have hit him then once forced down, proceed to put his full weight on the kid.

Why send mixed messages Jim?

That reminds me of some guy saying she did not deserve to be raped but my god, the beautiful woman was almost naked and besides I figured she needed some.

He complained about the time. He then complained while cursing. He stepped up to police. He then started with the know who you're talking to soldier crap. At least be honest with ALL of the facts.

And how do I send mixed messages? The cop should not be excused for his actions and should not be "above the law" in any way. Your old eyeballs are preventing you from seeing where I said this cop was wrong like 15 times now. And while the cop is wrong for laying his hands on the kid - I STILL think the punk needed an attitude adjustment, it just shouldn't have come from a cop.

Now why do you keep misquoting me, as if I am saying the cop was correct or above the law? I'm gonna smack you down in a minute and place my knee in your solar plexus if you keep it up! :slap:

[Robert A Whit]

He complained about the time. He then complained while cursing. He stepped up to police. He then started with the know who you're talking to soldier crap. At least be honest with ALL of the facts.

And how do I send mixed messages? The cop should not be excused for his actions and should not be "above the law" in any way. Your old eyeballs are preventing you from seeing where I said this cop was wrong like 15 times now. And while the cop is wrong for laying his hands on the kid - I STILL think the punk needed an attitude adjustment, it just shouldn't have come from a cop.

Now why do you keep misquoting me, as if I am saying the cop was correct or above the law? I'm gonna smack you down in a minute and place my knee in your solar plexus if you keep it up! :slap:



I am kind of tired of your mixed messages.

Let's pretend this is a jury.

Kids crime
1. complained the cop was late? Deserve a smack down?
I say no.
2. Cop steps forward. Does this give the right to the cop to hit him?
I say no.
3. Cop tells kid that he is not on his time frame.

Jim, that smart mouth reply by the cop is why this took place to begin with.

When he said that to the victim, not a punk, a victim who had called 911, the cop no longer was professional.

If you ever study law, you will find that the stronger party taking a wrong action is never innocent.

That cop did not defend himself.

The victim was not very large compared to the cop. And he did not lift his hands as if to pose danger to the cop.

Cops are the professional. Think of this in another way.

Say a person is a professional boxer. And some person complains to the boxer that the boxer showed up late for an appointment. The boxer sees it as smarting off and decks the guy. Then the boxer who is a huge heavy weight then gets down on the guy.

Being a cop is supposed to be because you are not a lawbreaker.

That cop broke the law.

A cop has a gun. A cop has a huge stick. A cop has back up. That kid had what?

He had a cop attacking him.

Look, if you agree the cop was wrong, we are in agreement and you keep saying the cop was wrong. As the superior force, hired to keep the peace, the kid can't be wrong so long as he did not attack the cop.

Now, if the kid had a tire iron in his hands and stepped as if to hit the cop, the kid needs to be hit.

A mixed message is when you say the cop is wrong but the kid is wrong.

Actually the kid did nothing wrong. The cop provoked him by putting down his citizens right to bring up that the cop was very late.

A better way for the cop to deal with this and be professional is,

"I understand why you think I am late, but the city is far too short of police. I got here as fast as I could."

That defuses the problem.

[jimnyc]

Wow. :lol:

[Robert A Whit]

Jim

You claim the cop did wrong.

Fine.

Forget the kid.

We agree on the cop.

Have a beer.

[Robert A Whit]

The cop provoked him by putting down his citizens right to bring up that the cop was very late.

A better way for the cop to deal with this and be professional is,

"I understand why you think I am late, but the city is far too short of police. I got here as fast as I could."

That defuses the problem.

[aboutime]

He complained about the time. He then complained while cursing. He stepped up to police. He then started with the know who you're talking to soldier crap. At least be honest with ALL of the facts.

And how do I send mixed messages? The cop should not be excused for his actions and should not be "above the law" in any way. Your old eyeballs are preventing you from seeing where I said this cop was wrong like 15 times now. And while the cop is wrong for laying his hands on the kid - I STILL think the punk needed an attitude adjustment, it just shouldn't have come from a cop.

Now why do you keep misquoting me, as if I am saying the cop was correct or above the law? I'm gonna smack you down in a minute and place my knee in your solar plexus if you keep it up! :slap:


jimnyc. Sometimes, the use of a Nightstick is better than trying to reason with someone who won't listen.

[jimnyc]

Jim

You claim the cop did wrong.

Fine.

Forget the kid.

We agree on the cop.

Have a beer.

And the kid was wrong for his own actions/reactions as well, albeit legal.


The cop provoked him by putting down his citizens right to bring up that the cop was very late.

A better way for the cop to deal with this and be professional is,

"I understand why you think I am late, but the city is far too short of police. I got here as fast as I could."

That defuses the problem.

Or maybe the kid could have said something differently too, either would have been better ways to approach the issue.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He complained about the time. He then complained while cursing. He stepped up to police. He then started with the know who you're talking to soldier crap. At least be honest with ALL of the facts.

And how do I send mixed messages? The cop should not be excused for his actions and should not be "above the law" in any way. Your old eyeballs are preventing you from seeing where I said this cop was wrong like 15 times now. And while the cop is wrong for laying his hands on the kid - I STILL think the punk needed an attitude adjustment, it just shouldn't have come from a cop.

Now why do you keep misquoting me, as if I am saying the cop was correct or above the law? I'm gonna smack you down in a minute and place my knee in your solar plexus if you keep it up! :slap:

Please don't, Robert is far too old to ever get up again should ya do that!;);):laugh:---:beer:
Besides , I like reading his posts.... his stories are interesting and I was just about to ask him(being he is older than dirt) how was George Washington when he was a boy. :laugh:

[Robert A Whit]

And the kid was wrong for his own actions/reactions as well, albeit legal.



Or maybe the kid could have said something differently too, either would have been better ways to approach the issue.

Jim

If we go with you, why do you suppose that Channel 7 News brought this to our attention?

Why do you think ABC news investigated? Why do you think they interviewed the young man?

Why do you suppose a city worker turned the video over to a major news operation?

You keep acting as if the young man deserved what happened to him.

Who the hell would adjust his attitude in your little world?

Not the cop you say?

Then who?

You want the cop to call outside the guys that beat up the young man?

Now, have a beer. :cheers2:

If this gets to court, the cops lose. Both of them. I could not see the other cop but the one I saw was a huge man. If that young man scared a huge man bragging he was a Marine, he ain't worth snot.

[jimnyc]

Jim

If we go with you, why do you suppose that Channel 7 News brought this to our attention?

Maybe they took the material received and thought it was abuse?


Why do you think ABC news investigated? Why do you think they interviewed the young man?

Maybe they wanted to find out his version of events?


Why do you suppose a city worker turned the video over to a major news operation?

Maybe they figured nothing would be done if they didn't involve the media? A coverup perhaps?


You keep acting as if the young man deserved what happened to him.

I don't think he deserved to be slapped down and winded by a cop. I think he deserved alternate justice. Sometimes karma gets a little confused.


Who the hell would adjust his attitude in your little world?

Anyone not willing to put up with the attitude and tough guy routine?


Not the cop you say?

Nope


Then who?

Maybe his friends that apparently just finished kicking his ass?


You want the cop to call outside the guys that beat up the young man?

It probably would have been wiser than assaulting the kid himself.


Now, have a beer. :cheers2:

I want liquor, cheapskate.


If this gets to court, the cops lose. Both of them. I could not see the other cop but the one I saw was a huge man. If that young man scared a huge man bragging he was a Marine, he ain't worth snot.

I would have no sympathy if either or both lost in court.

[cadet]

And the kid was wrong for his own actions/reactions as well, albeit legal.



Or maybe the kid could have said something differently too, either would have been better ways to approach the issue.

It doesn't matter if the kid was little shit. You really want a cop walking around giving out vigilante justice??? Next you're gonna say all cops are above the law.
He should be held MORE accountable for his actions. He's supposed to be UPHOLDING the law, not abusing his position.

[Robert A Whit]

Maybe they took the material received and thought it was abuse?



Maybe they wanted to find out his version of events?



Maybe they figured nothing would be done if they didn't involve the media? A coverup perhaps?



I don't think he deserved to be slapped down and winded by a cop. I think he deserved alternate justice. Sometimes karma gets a little confused.



Anyone not willing to put up with the attitude and tough guy routine?



Nope



Maybe his friends that apparently just finished kicking his ass?



It probably would have been wiser than assaulting the kid himself.



I want liquor, cheapskate.



I would have no sympathy if either or both lost in court.

Liquor you say??? Next you will want Maker's Mark knowing it is sort of in short supply.

Ever drank Scoresby scotch?

You of course know about the BMW line? Where I was based in Germany, BMW had the factory that I was told produced the engines for the BMW motorcycle.

I was based at the end of my time at the army airfield. Naturally it was for military aircraft. But one German civilian was allowed landing rights. This charter operator would fly in the head of BMW and when he landed, he brought in bottles of fine booze. Don't think Army regulations allowed it but the booze was very good. i think one time he dropped off a bottle of Bushmills and me and the guys drank every drop.

Oh, Scoresby is mellow and for my dollar damned good.

I have not bought liquor in a very long time. Last year I did break down and got about 30 cans of beer in one package though. I don't drink them fast though. Maybe 1 or 2 a day.

[jimnyc]

It doesn't matter if the kid was little shit. You really want a cop walking around giving out vigilante justice??? Next you're gonna say all cops are above the law.
He should be held MORE accountable for his actions. He's supposed to be UPHOLDING the law, not abusing his position.

Not once did I say the cop should be a vigilante. I have not defended his actions. I VERY clearly wrote at least 16x now that the cop was wrong for placing a hand on the kid.

How could you quote something, that doesn't even mention the police, and then twist my words to somehow be about the police?

[cadet]

Not once did I say the cop should be a vigilante. I have not defended his actions. I VERY clearly wrote at least 16x now that the cop was wrong for placing a hand on the kid.

How could you quote something, that doesn't even mention the police, and then twist my words to somehow be about the police?

Whoops, I skimmed. Sorry! :laugh:

[Robert A Whit]

Please don't, Robert is far too old to ever get up again should ya do that!;);):laugh:---:beer:
Besides , I like reading his posts.... his stories are interesting and I was just about to ask him(being he is older than dirt) how was George Washington when he was a boy. :laugh:

Glad I amuse some of you. LMAO Hell, even if I charge some poster, does not mean I am not enjoying myself. LOL

It must have been about 1977 that one day my step daughter told me that I was so old, I farted dust. LMAO I had to be all of 39. We both got a good laugh when she said that.

When George Washington was a boy, he was just fine. LMAO

Ever been to Mt. Vernon? A fine view from the back of the Potomac River.

They toured people up to the top bedrooms where I was told that he died there.

Imagine living in a large house that had no inside kitchen and no toilets?

Since he was so rich, I wonder why democrats like him?

Use this link to see his home. They say there is about 500 acres today but when he lived, he had 5,000 or so at this one site.

Watch the video.
http://www.mountvernon.org/

See the estate map.

http://www.mountvernon.org/visit-his-estate/map

[jimnyc]

Whoops, I skimmed. Sorry! :laugh:

My point to Roberto Clemente, was, that I agree with everyone that the cop shouldn't have decked the kid. He gave an oath to be a certain person. I don't think the cop should have abused his authority.

BUT, based on the kids own actions, I wouldn't be angry to him being put in his place, however that may be. Didn't you and your brother give one another a little beatdown when necessary? (U do have a younger bro, no?) :laugh:

[jimnyc]

Glad I amuse some of you. LMAO Hell, even if I charge some poster, does not mean I am not enjoying myself. LOL

It must have been about 1977 that one day my step daughter told me that I was so old, I farted dust. LMAO I had to be all of 39. We both got a good laugh when she said that.

When George Washington was a boy, he was just fine. LMAO

Ever been to Mt. Vernon? A fine view from the back of the Potomac River.

They toured people up to the top bedrooms where I was told that he died there.

Imagine living in a large house that had no inside kitchen and no toilets?

Since he was so rich, I wonder why democrats like him?

I try to imagine you as "Blue" from Old School. :coffee::cheers2:

[cadet]

My point to Roberto Clemente, was, that I agree with everyone that the cop shouldn't have decked the kid. He gave an oath to be a certain person. I don't think the cop should have abused his authority.

BUT, based on the kids own actions, I wouldn't be angry to him being put in his place, however that may be. Didn't you and your brother give one another a little beatdown when necessary? (U do have a younger bro, no?) :laugh:

I have two younger brothers, and if you're reading this mom, I never hurt them. :whistling2:

[jimnyc]

I have two younger brothers, and if you're reading this mom, I never hurt them. :whistling2:

You just 'splained it, a little street justice! LOL

[Robert A Whit]

My point to Roberto Clemente, was, that I agree with everyone that the cop shouldn't have decked the kid. He gave an oath to be a certain person. I don't think the cop should have abused his authority.

BUT, based on the kids own actions, I wouldn't be angry to him being put in his place, however that may be. Didn't you and your brother give one another a little beatdown when necessary? (U do have a younger bro, no?) :laugh:

I had a championship men's fast pitch softball team but I am no Roberto Clemente. LMAO

Now you are cooking Jim. Now it will be up to the State of Ca to investigate this rogue cop.

I am not bragging Jim but I know for a fact that at the ASA hall of fame, in one of their rule books, My picture is in that book.

[Robert A Whit]

I try to imagine you as "Blue" from Old School. :coffee::cheers2:

Not sure what you mean my lad.:beer:

[jimnyc]

Not sure what you mean my lad.:beer:

The movie "Old School" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0302886/

These guys are reliving the old college days, and are starting a fraternity. This guy "Blue" is the oldest one to 'rush the frat house'. The old fella was downright hilarious in this movie. Till he croaked anyway! LOL

[taft2012]

You resent me saying that most cops are honest and treat people properly eh.

You resent me saying that there are some bad apple cops, eh?

You resent me saying most civilians are honest decent people, eh?

You resent me saying there are some bad apple civilians, eh?



Now who is the big throbbing cock?

You still hold the title, champ. :laugh2:

[Robert A Whit]

I had no idea that film existed.

Hey, time to tell you all another story.

I worked on pile drivers when in heavy construction and we were putting in the foundation for a county bridge close to Jennings by the Sea. After work, one of the crew and myself took my car up the Russian River to see that area. When we stopped at Gurneville, CA next to the Russian River for gasoline, a huge motor home sat also gassing up. This was probably around 1965, Anyway, the door was open and we peeked inside it. Mind you this was before the motor home industry really cranked up. We had never seen a motor home before.

This one was ultra fancy. It must have been custom built. The driver said it belongs to Vic Morrow. Some of you won't know who that is. Vic Morrow starred on TV such as the Series called Combat.

Combat took place in France during WW11.

Well, the driver told us they were shooting the TV film up in the hills. He told us to drive to a road where a state cop would be parked and keep driving and wave at him.
We did as told and ended up parking by where they were shooting film.

Morrow was setting in a chair and reading the financials of the SF paper. I knew it because it was the Green sheet. I believe it was the SF Examiner. Could have been the SF Chronicle but it matters not.

The director is a very young guy. I was amazed one could be that young.

They use a shovel and hollow out the ground. The actor who is a stand in is told to lay down in the hollow and they practice with him there.

The real actor is told to trade places and the director barks out orders to some of the cast to get to their places. Then he looks over our way and says to Vic Morrow, Vic Sir, I am ready for you.

VIC SIR? LMAO

Morrow was wearing Sgt. Stripes.

VIC SIR? I still laugh.

Morrow saunters over to his spot and puts the folded paper behind his back and says a line. Turns around and walks back to his chair and sets down.

Life for actors is tough I tell you.

All that goofing off is hard I tell ya.

I saw some of the regular cast.

A hell of a day to watch them shooting a TV show. I later heard I believe that Morrow put up his money to make that TV program.

Morrow was in movies. He was killed in the Los Angeles area making another movie. He was killed by the rotor of a helicopter I believe if memory serves me.

See that scenery in the film? That is just to the North of the Russian River. I recognize that area and they filmed there all the time.


http://youtu.be/dZsw8-roZgI

[Robert A Whit]

This is the film I saw them shoot.

Watch to the part where Morrow tells Ollie let's go. That is is where Morrow has the financial paper from SF behind his back.

Also Jim, keep an eye on the guy with the red cross on his helmet. He was having sex with the wife of a supermarket owner from San Francisco. I met her and of course was not aware she met him. She and her friend were at a place by the Russian River and we saw them and went over to talk to them. The guy with me then had sex with her girlfriend. Later though. He asked me to loan my car to him so he could meet with her.

I see now how he did it. They took a head shot of Morrow as he told Ollie to go.


http://youtu.be/OBnoK1S6EyY

[revelarts]

many of the point Talfins Log Tyr and robert and cadet and sassy made
are my own.


long story short the cop should be fired.

[jimnyc]

many of the point Talfins Log Tyr and robert and cadet and sassy made
are my own.


long story short the cop should be fired.

Perhaps so, perhaps. And someone should give that kid an attitude adjustment. :poke:

[revelarts]

Perhaps so, perhaps. And someone should give that kid an attitude adjustment. :poke:

an attitude adjustment smack down for not showing the the late cop with the profane dispatcher the proper "respect" of their athoritah.

Not in the cop's job description.

why you poking me, I deleted a half page of notes to post previous the short one. don't get me started.

[taft2012]

If woulda been awesome if the kid had a pile of weed and the cop took him in. :dance:

[jimnyc]

an attitude adjustment smack down for not showing the the late cop with the profane dispatcher the proper "respect" of their athoritah.

Not in the cop's job description.

why you poking me, I deleted a half page of notes to post previous the short one. don't get me started.

Nope, never said it should have been the cop. Did you not read the entire thread? LOL Cop or not, any kid puffing up and acting tough, as if better than another, because he is in the military/reserves, likely needs to be put in his place, brought back down to earth. I'd have preferred that the cops did their job, left, and then his friends give him another beating and hopefully put him in his place.

[taft2012]

I've said this a few times and it doesn't seem to be sinking in. One last time and then I'll quit...

Put yourself in the responding officer's place. You arrive to assist someone who has called 911, and upon arriving someone is all nasty and in your face. Almost like they are baiting you say, "Oh, OK, so you can handle this by yourself? Bye! See ya!" And in reality, that's what the person wanted you to do in the first place.

You don't know who this guy is.

Intuition is going to start leading you to think that this is the really bad guy trying to drive you off, and that the person who actually dialed 911 is somewhere else still in danger.

This happens *ALL* the time with domestic assault cases, where the batterer tries to intercept the arriving police and say "Yeah, we were just yelling a little bit but everything is OK, you can go now." They do that so we don't get a look at the person who just took a whooping.

Sometimes cops *do* fall for that bilge, and those are the guys who wind up getting fired and sued. You have to take control of the situation to allow for a thorough investigation of the incident and identify all parties involved and determine what really happened.... which isn't going to happen if someone is puffing up in your face trying to get you to retreat back to your car and leave.

But whatever.... legalized marijuana remains issue #1, so speak whatever....

[Marcus Aurelius]

this bears repeating...


When an officer doesn't take steps to ensure his safety when dealing with a situation or potential suspect, this is what can happen...


http://www.policemag.com/videos/chan...-oc-spray.aspx (http://www.policemag.com/videos/channel/patrol/2010/06/suspect-shoots-officer-after-pursuit-oc-spray.aspx)
Cpl. Bruce McKay (http://odmp.org/officer/18880-corporal-n.-bruce-mckay-iii) of the Franconia (N.H.) Police Department ended his watch on May 11, 2007. McKay stopped a suspect after a brief pursuit. After being pepper sprayed, the suspect shot the officer four times, killing him. The suspect then ran over the officer. A civilian intervened and shot the suspect with the officer's service weapon.




http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...ruing-burglary (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_22379583/reports-officer-galt-shot-killed-ruing-burglary)
K-9 officer Kevin Tonn, 31, was one of two officers who responded to a burglary in progress on the 200 block of F Street in Galt around 11:30 a.m., according to Galt police Lt. Jim Uptegrove. While officers were interviewing neighbors, one of the witnesses pointed down the road to some train tracks, roughly a block away, identifying the burglary suspect.

Tonn attempted to approach the man, but Uptegrove said the man became aggressive and an altercation between Tonn and the suspect ensued.

At some point during the struggle, the suspect pulled out a hand gun and shot Tonn and the second officer who responded to the burglary call.

Tonn was taken to Kaiser Permanente South Sacramento Hospital where he was pronounced dead, Uptegrove said.

[logroller]

Brilliant analogy.

Let's compare the number of FedEx deliverymen murdered for late packages to that of police officers responding to 911 calls.

Is legalized marijuana really worth looking this dumb for?
Fair enough; likewise, let's compare the number of FedEx drivers who assault their customers; the horse goes after the cart, not before.
So far a marijuana legalization, besides the fact its a complete strawman argument, thirty plus years of our war on drugs and, by every measure, its worse: our jails and prisons are over capacity, crime syndicates are thriving and drug use ( especially marijuana use) is more common and drugs are becoming more and more sophisticated. If anyone looks dumb, its those who consistently double-down on ill-devised laws that have only served to worsen the "problem"...if in fact is what a problem to begin with, but rather, a problem of your own creation.

[logroller]

this bears repeating...
Did I miss the part where that suspect had called the officers himself. Or where the guy complained that they took so long to get there? your appeal to emotion is situationally irrelevant to the discussion of the case at hand. Need I repeat myself?
the guy in the OP didn't flee, nor was he confronted after pursuit. The case you presented had nothing to do with the OP!!!

[jimnyc]

So far a marijuana legalization, besides the fact its a complete strawman argument, thirty plus years of our war on drugs and, by every measure, its worse: our jails and prisons are over capacity, crime syndicates are thriving and drug use ( especially marijuana use) is more common and drugs are becoming more and more sophisticated. If anyone looks dumb, its those who consistently double-down on ill-devised laws that have only served to worsen the "problem"...if in fact is what a problem to begin with, but rather, a problem of your own creation.

So Colorado has legalized as we know. There local government is going to make it legal for tourists to partake as well, with limitations.

Maybe we can discuss this problem, with a DP get together, at a ski lodge on Colorado? :beer:

[tailfins]

If woulda been awesome if the kid had a pile of weed and the cop took him in. :dance:

Maybe someone who thinks like you could plant it on him.

[logroller]

So Colorado has legalized as we know. There local government is going to make it legal for tourists to partake as well, with limitations.


Maybe we can discuss this problem, with a DP get together, at a ski lodge on Colorado?
Don't give Taft any encouragement. People want to smoke pot, go ahead, but its a hallucinogenic drug and, like all drugs in that class, it diminishes the capacity to reason and deal with reality. Sometimes an escape is preferential, but its still an escape. Same as taft's overt reduction of every cause of liberty boiling down to marijuana legislation; he's escaping from reality through strawman arguments and red herrings. He just like to incite reefer madness so he can feel justified in dealing the cause of liberty a good beat down.

[aboutime]

Don't give Taft any encouragement. People want to smoke pot, go ahead, but its a hallucinogenic drug and, like all drugs in that class, it diminishes the capacity to reason and deal with reality. Sometimes an escape is preferential, but its still an escape. Same as taft's overt reduction of every cause of liberty boiling down to marijuana legislation; he's escaping from reality through strawman arguments and red herrings. He just like to incite reefer madness so he can feel justified in dealing the cause of liberty a good beat down.


logroller. So you, like many other BRAIN DAMAGED fans of Pot Smoking are just following in the footsteps of Timothy Leary. And we all know where he is today.
From now on. I will promise to be more caring, and understanding about mentally challenged people like you. In fact. I fully endorse you, and others moving to Colorado where all of you can remain HIGH on stupidity as long as you like.

[logroller]

logroller. So you, like many other BRAIN DAMAGED fans of Pot Smoking are just following in the footsteps of Timothy Leary. And we all know where he is today.
From now on. I will promise to be more caring, and understanding about mentally challenged people like you. In fact. I fully endorse you, and others moving to Colorado where all of you can remain HIGH on stupidity as long as you like.
I haven't smoked pot more than 20 times in my life; none in the last ten and have repeatedly scored high on cognitive function tests, 98th percentile in fact. My logical and spatial reasoning is in the 99th. my only weakness, if you consider 85th percentile weak, is observational skills and auditory discernment. Not here to toot my horn, my presentations here speak to my abilities; abilities you clearly lack, so you are relegated to ad hominem attacks. My abilities, if they are in fact diminished, are dwarfed in comparison to your idiotic and foolish attempts to inflame me. Put forth an argument. - and ill smack it down like the little bitch it came from! Every time, about time. So if personal attacks are how you wish to interact with me, then from now on you are no longer in the safe harbor of my grace.
You ready for pwnment?
why don't you get going on a class action for why the navy didn't provide you organic vapor respirators that undoubtedly caused you significant brain damage...they'd probably just say you have dimentia though, and they'd be right. Likewise, you probably didn't have much scruples before either. Can't lose what you don't have; so maybe just enjoy you slow descent into madness. You cant even put forth a logical argument; just blind accusations and insults!!! And you can't
even do that very well. I imagine you as a man just mumbling incoherently; dumbfounded by why everyone nods and agrees but doesn't actually heed what you say...it's because they're placating you as the old grumpy moron that you are!

[jimnyc]

logroller. So you, like many other BRAIN DAMAGED fans of Pot Smoking are just following in the footsteps of Timothy Leary. And we all know where he is today.
From now on. I will promise to be more caring, and understanding about mentally challenged people like you. In fact. I fully endorse you, and others moving to Colorado where all of you can remain HIGH on stupidity as long as you like.


I haven't smoked pot more than 20 times in my life; none in the last ten and have repeatedly scored high on cognitive function tests, 98th percentile in fact. My logical and spatial reasoning is in the 99th. my only weakness, if you consider 85th percentile weak, is observational skills and auditory discernment. Not here to toot my horn, my presentations here speak to my abilities; abilities you clearly lack, so you are relegated to ad hominem attacks. My abilities, if they are in fact diminished, are dwarfed in comparison to your idiotic and foolish attempts to inflame me. Put forth an argument. - and ill smack it down like the little bitch it came from! Every time, about time. So if personal attacks are how you wish to interact with me, then from now on you are no longer in the safe harbor of my grace.
You ready for pwnment?
why don't you get going on a class action for why the navy didn't provide you organic vapor respirators that undoubtedly caused you significant brain damage...they'd probably just say you have dimentia though, and they'd be right. Likewise, you probably didn't have much scruples before either. Can't lose what you don't have; so maybe just enjoy you slow descent into madness. You cant even put forth a logical argument; just blind accusations and insults!!! And you can't
even do that very well. I imagine you as a man just mumbling incoherently; dumbfounded by why everyone nods and agrees but doesn't actually heed what you say...it's because they're placating you as the old grumpy moron that you are!

Oh man, I've smoked enough for all three of us! That must mean I have enough dumbness in me for all 3 of us! :laugh:

[aboutime]

Oh man, I've smoked enough for all three of us! That must mean I have enough dumbness in me for all 3 of us! :laugh:


Guess you NAILED it jimnyc. Bragging about it tells much more.

[jimnyc]

Guess you NAILED it jimnyc. Bragging about it tells much more.

Well, I'm not going to lie about it. I smoked the stuff for many, many years. I'm not bragging about it, just stating that I did, that's all. But it didn't brain damage me and I've still got a few wheels turning upstairs.

[aboutime]

Well, I'm not going to lie about it. I smoked the stuff for many, many years. I'm not bragging about it, just stating that I did, that's all. But it didn't brain damage me and I've still got a few wheels turning upstairs.


Thanks for sharing.

[jimnyc]

Thanks for sharing.

So you're going to get butt hurt simply because I mentioned, or bragged in your opinion, about my prior smoking habits? :420:

[Robert A Whit]

logroller. So you, like many other BRAIN DAMAGED fans of Pot Smoking are just following in the footsteps of Timothy Leary. And we all know where he is today.
From now on. I will promise to be more caring, and understanding about mentally challenged people like you. In fact. I fully endorse you, and others moving to Colorado where all of you can remain HIGH on stupidity as long as you like.

You are no fan of human liberty.

I was under the impression you passed yourself off as a conservative. You talk like a left winger.

[logroller]

So you're going to get butt hurt simply because I mentioned, or bragged in your opinion, about my prior smoking habits? :420:
...contemplating the truth in LR's assertions, Abouttime lapses into madness.
fade to black, role credits.:cool:

[aboutime]

So you're going to get butt hurt simply because I mentioned, or bragged in your opinion, about my prior smoking habits? :420:


Is that REALLY what you think? Butt hurt? I'll file that one for later use. Butt hurt? If you say so. Whatever makes you feel good.

[jimnyc]

Is that REALLY what you think? Butt hurt? I'll file that one for later use. Butt hurt? If you say so. Whatever makes you feel good.

It's actually a very popular term these days, look it up on Google. It was meant to be funny, not necessarily mean. Point was, you seemed to get 'angered' with me, for whatever reason. No reason that I can see, but the only thing I can think of, since you replied to it, was my "bragging" about smoking, which wasn't bragging. It's just odd that someone would feel upset or angered, about someone stating they once smoked a lot of the stuff. Can you see where I'm going here? Make love, not war! : Insert funny hippie smilie here where the hippy has like a 10 foot joint in his mouth :

[Robert A Whit]

First, i do not endorse smoking pot. As one that used Pot for about two months, I know the good and the bad.

But let's not smack down those who smoke pot. They will ordinarily be non aggressive. Pot is awful if you plan to fight.

If you want to fight, drink. A lot of us don't get hostile when drinking but I assure you that nobody smoking pot is going to fight.

Pot hurts only the smoker. Most pot smokers that still smoke refuse to admit it hurts them. They will proudly say they have wheels upstairs still working. It does not kill the brain rapidly. The smoker is not in the position to pronounce health impacts.

I suggest those who want to know what Pot does to you read the book by Michael Savage on what it does over a very long time.

Booze hurts the liver of many too. But we don't claim our liver still works when we can't tell just hat has happened to our liver until it gets professionally examined.

Pot seems to do it's damage to the brain per Savage in his book.

Use of Codene, Vicodin and other drugs also know that they can harm. They do a valuable service to those in pain.

Pot short term won't hurt you. If you space the use out so you don't use it weekly, you may not get hurt. It does something to the brain as I understand it. That over time is harmful.