The Secret to Fixing Bad Schools

[WiccanLiberal]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/opinion/sunday/the-secret-to-fixing-bad-schools.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


Good analysis and a common sense conclusion I thought. It says, in part...


"Public schools in such communities have often operated as factories for failure. This used to be true in Union City, where the schools were once so wretched that state officials almost seized control of them. How things have changed. From third grade through high school, students’ achievement scores now approximate the statewide average. What’s more, in 2011, Union City boasted a high school graduation rate of 89.5 percent — roughly 10 percentage points higher than the national average. Last year, 75 percent of Union City graduates enrolled in college, with top students winning scholarships to the Ivies.
...

What makes Union City remarkable is, paradoxically, the absence of pizazz. It hasn’t followed the herd by closing “underperforming” schools or giving the boot to hordes of teachers. No Teach for America recruits toil in its classrooms, and there are no charter schools.
A quarter-century ago, fear of a state takeover catalyzed a transformation. The district’s best educators were asked to design a curriculum based on evidence, not hunch. Learning by doing replaced learning by rote. Kids who came to school speaking only Spanish became truly bilingual, taught how to read and write in their native tongue before tackling English. Parents were enlisted in the cause. Teachers were urged to work together, the superstars mentoring the stragglers and coaches recruited to add expertise. Principals were expected to become educational leaders, not just disciplinarians and paper-shufflers.
From a loose confederacy, the schools gradually morphed into a coherent system that marries high expectations with a “we can do it” attitude. “The real story of Union City is that it didn’t fall back,” says Fred Carrigg, a key architect of the reform. “It stabilized and has continued to improve.”
To any educator with a pulse, this game plan sounds so old-school obvious that it verges on platitude. That these schools are generously financed clearly makes a difference — not every community will decide to pay for two years of prekindergarten — but too many districts squander their resources.
School officials flock to Union City and other districts that have beaten the odds, eager for a quick fix. But they’re on a fool’s errand. These places — and there are a host of them, largely unsung — didn’t become exemplars by behaving like magpies, taking shiny bits and pieces and gluing them together. Instead, each devised a long-term strategy reaching from preschool to high school. Each keeps learning from experience and tinkering with its model. Nationwide, there’s no reason school districts — big or small; predominantly white, Latino or black — cannot construct a system that, like the schools of Union City, bends the arc of children’s lives."

I begin to think there is no single solution to the education problems in this country - no cookie cutter approach. Instead there has to be a start to finish commitment by parents and educators to a long term plan appropriate for that area.

[Robert A Whit]

I see parallels between the largely Mexican schools of the East Union City vs the West Union City.

Union City CA is composed of two former groups. Alvarado was mostly Phillipino whereas Decoto was mostly Mexicans. Groups consolidated the two small towns and this is now a formal city by the name of Union City. Decoto was so bad that the crime of this city reminds me of what Jaurez Mexico became.

The CA Union city had to live down the lawless state of Decoto and when Alvarado joined Decoto to be one city, it too took a hit. Few cities have to live down the rutless murder of a sitting Chief of Police but the CA Union city had to do that, and to their credit, did that and has turned a corner.

By 1971 when I became a Realtor, I did not dare try to sell any homes in Union city. I did not want to put my clients where the schools were so poor and chances of their kids encountering violence was more likely.

When police chief William M. Cann died in violence some other forces started. I can't explain all of this but over time schools there turned a corner. My grandson attends Logan High School for one reason. He lives in a nearby city but got waivers to go to Logan in Union City. His city schools are bad. (Negros fled to his city because of violence in Oakland, CA.) He expects to attend a high rated university to get an aeronautical degree. The school went from one of daily violence to a proud school with a lot of students going onto college. They have an outstanding football team.

Strange how two citys parallel like that.
http://www.odmp.org/officer/2744-chief-of-police-william-m-cann

Chief of Police William M. Cann
Union City Police Department, California
EOW: Thursday, August 29, 1974



http://www.odmp.org/media/thumb/100/officer/2744/2744.jpg
http://www.odmp.org/media/thumb/100/agency/3924/3924.jpg (http://www.odmp.org/agency/3924-union-city-police-department-california)



Bio & Incident Details
Age: 32
Tour: 11 years
Badge # Not available
Cause: Gunfire
Incident Date: Tuesday, June 11, 1974
Weapon: Rifle; .30 caliber
Suspect: Convicted of second degree murder

Chief Cann succumbed to gunshot wounds received almost three months earlier when he was shot during a community meeting to discuss the relations between the police department and the Hispanic community.

Five shots were fired from a a .30 rifle through a window from approximately 60 feet away. Chief Cann was hit twice in the neck and three civilians were shot. The three civilians survived.

The suspect, a former member of a militant group, was convicted of second degree murder.

Chief Cann had served as the Chief of the Union City Police Department for 15 months when he was injured. He had previously served with the San Anselmo, Novato, and San Bruno Police Departments.

[fj1200]

The secret? Break the monopoly.

[bingster]

"I begin to think there is no single solution to the education problems in this country - no cookie cutter approach. Instead there has to be a start to finish commitment by parents and educators to a long term plan appropriate for that area. " from original post

I agree with this concept, but we need to stop talking about private schools. We have a public school infrastructure in place, we need to fix that and stop talking about diverting money from the public schools to pay for private schools. It's like taking from the police force to pay for private security and that's just dumb.

Teacher tenure ought to go away, but we need to pay them more. We need to test our teachers through student achievement scores, but I'm not sure how. If a student flunks the math portion, what do you do to the P.E. teacher? How do you test P.E.? Teaching to the test is also a short sighted goal.

I'm a liberal, so of course, my knee jerk opinion is federal government intervention. But, what about a modeling program? The best schools in a state models or dictates to the worst schools, or something.

It's a complicated subject, but I wish conservatives would join liberals and at least focus on the same goal: improving our public school system.

[fj1200]

It's a complicated subject, but I wish conservatives would join liberals and at least focus on the same goal: improving our public school system.

I wish liberals would join conservatives in focusing on the same goal: improving the schools. Liberals will just spend more money on the broken system while conservatives think the system is where the problem is. Break the monopoly.

My county school system is on probation with SACS. It doesn't look good and it's been liberal run for decades and is fraught with corruption and utter mismanagement.

[Kathianne]

"I begin to think there is no single solution to the education problems in this country - no cookie cutter approach. Instead there has to be a start to finish commitment by parents and educators to a long term plan appropriate for that area. " from original post

I agree with this concept, but we need to stop talking about private schools. We have a public school infrastructure in place, we need to fix that and stop talking about diverting money from the public schools to pay for private schools. It's like taking from the police force to pay for private security and that's just dumb. You agree with the 'concept.' then go on about vouchers, which wasn't mentioned as part of the concept. I'm not the grammar police, but the paragraph needs at least 2.

There is 'no single solution,' that is correct, getting back to the concept of the article being discussed. The 'concept' in the school under discussion was to have the curriculum overhauled and integrated from ps-12th grade. Weak teachers were mentored, strong teachers were given leadership roles. The expectations were made clear throughout the faculty and students. Expectations were raised as goals were met. The one element I failed to see was parental input, though in lower grades parent volunteers were utilized, thus there must have been a strong impetus to involve parents.

Your second point regarding vouchers, they have had significant positive impact on some of the poorest school systems in the nation, among them, Washington DC and Milwaukee, WI. Still, a topic for a different thread.


Teacher tenure ought to go away, but we need to pay them more. We need to test our teachers through student achievement scores, but I'm not sure how. If a student flunks the math portion, what do you do to the P.E. teacher? How do you test P.E.? Teaching to the test is also a short sighted goal. Why should tenure 'go away?' In order to say such, do you understand the purpose of tenure in the first place? What protections would you put in place instead? You say, "Pay them more." What's 'reasonable?'

Again, the mixing on topics in one paragraph, so I'll just add a separate answer for your query regarding the PE teacher. Every state has standards that are measurable regarding grade and subject matter goals. The PE teacher must have results that measure the success that kids are having. If there aren't lesson plans that document the teaching of the goals and standards, and measurements of attainment, he/she may be counseled, forced to make an improvement plan and deadlines for results, or fired.

When schools are up for re-certification, lesson plans and grade books are reviewed. In IL we must have which standards and goals the lesson is designed to meet. The process of re-certification of a school takes anywhere from 6-18 months. Thus, it is about 8 years between the process, though the state may come in at any point and 'spot check.' Though rare, it does happen to schools that are in trouble or suddenly show 'great increases' in scores-which is how the scandals regarding teachers changing answers for standardized tests happen.


I'm a liberal, so of course, my knee jerk opinion is federal government intervention. But, what about a modeling program? The best schools in a state models or dictates to the worst schools, or something.

It's a complicated subject, but I wish conservatives would join liberals and at least focus on the same goal: improving our public school system.


There is not one item in the article that alludes to the feds as being a player in the turn around of the school. Moreover, the writer goes on to make the point that they dealt with their situation with their staff, their students, their facilities-no great influx of money or outside resources. Indeed, he makes it clear that those coming to find 'the magic fix,' are just going through a fog hoping for an easy way out of their own miasma.

[bingster]

I wish liberals would join conservatives in focusing on the same goal: improving the schools. Liberals will just spend more money on the broken system while conservatives think the system is where the problem is. Break the monopoly.

My county school system is on probation with SACS. It doesn't look good and it's been liberal run for decades and is fraught with corruption and utter mismanagement.

That's what I mean. The problem is the public schools that need to be fixed. My analogy is a good one. Take away from the police department and give to private investigators?

[bingster]

You agree with the 'concept.' then go on about vouchers, which wasn't mentioned as part of the concept. I'm not the grammar police, but the paragraph needs at least 2.

There is 'no single solution,' that is correct, getting back to the concept of the article being discussed. The 'concept' in the school under discussion was to have the curriculum overhauled and integrated from ps-12th grade. Weak teachers were mentored, strong teachers were given leadership roles. The expectations were made clear throughout the faculty and students. Expectations were raised as goals were met. The one element I failed to see was parental input, though in lower grades parent volunteers were utilized, thus there must have been a strong impetus to involve parents.

Your second point regarding vouchers, they have had significant positive impact on some of the poorest school systems in the nation, among them, Washington DC and Milwaukee, WI. Still, a topic for a different thread. Why should tenure 'go away?' In order to say such, do you understand the purpose of tenure in the first place? What protections would you put in place instead? You say, "Pay them more." What's 'reasonable?'

Again, the mixing on topics in one paragraph, so I'll just add a separate answer for your query regarding the PE teacher. Every state has standards that are measurable regarding grade and subject matter goals. The PE teacher must have results that measure the success that kids are having. If there aren't lesson plans that document the teaching of the goals and standards, and measurements of attainment, he/she may be counseled, forced to make an improvement plan and deadlines for results, or fired.

When schools are up for re-certification, lesson plans and grade books are reviewed. In IL we must have which standards and goals the lesson is designed to meet. The process of re-certification of a school takes anywhere from 6-18 months. Thus, it is about 8 years between the process, though the state may come in at any point and 'spot check.' Though rare, it does happen to schools that are in trouble or suddenly show 'great increases' in scores-which is how the scandals regarding teachers changing answers for standardized tests happen.

There is not one item in the article that alludes to the feds as being a player in the turn around of the school. Moreover, the writer goes on to make the point that they dealt with their situation with their staff, their students, their facilities-no great influx of money or outside resources. Indeed, he makes it clear that those coming to find 'the magic fix,' are just going through a fog hoping for an easy way out of their own miasma.


Damn lady, you're harsh. Just because I took the article into a different direction you accuse me of malpractice. Vouchers don't improve public schools, it helps some students and ignores the rest.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but teacher tenure protects a teacher after so many years from being terminated. If that's not right, I stand corrected. Nobody in a professional position deserves to have unlimited job security independent of performance.

I applauded what they did in the article. I'm just not sure our country can just kick back and wait for all of the schools to improve without some kind of pressure.

[Kathianne]

Damn lady, you're harsh. Just because I took the article into a different direction you accuse me of malpractice. Vouchers don't improve public schools, it helps some students and ignores the rest.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but teacher tenure protects a teacher after so many years from being terminated. If that's not right, I stand corrected. Nobody in a professional position deserves to have unlimited job security independent of performance.

I applauded what they did in the article. I'm just not sure our country can just kick back and wait for all of the schools to improve without some kind of pressure.

Sorry, but this doesn't wash. Tenure was established to protect teachers from being bullied to conform to 'school practices' that might hurt the children, definitely prevent change. For instance today, a teacher that raised expectations in the classroom, that inspired the students to reach beyond, might run into opposition from fellow teachers and administration. What protects them? Tenure.

OTOH, tenure does protect teachers that no longer teach. Indeed, may protect teachers that harm children beyond academics.

Your solution? Haven't seen one yet.

As for vouchers, your 'solution' is to condemn all, rather than help some? Not a good one, imho.

I do believe you have gone off on a subject your really haven't any knowledge or interest in. Even with prodding regarding tenure, you chose not to find the underlying support for the establishment of it. That doesn't preclude the abuses, indeed you'll find that I agree with your push to eliminate, but there needs to be protections for the game changers.

[bingster]

Sorry, but this doesn't wash. Tenure was established to protect teachers from being bullied to conform to 'school practices' that might hurt the children, definitely prevent change. For instance today, a teacher that raised expectations in the classroom, that inspired the students to reach beyond, might run into opposition from fellow teachers and administration. What protects them? Tenure.

OTOH, tenure does protect teachers that no longer teach. Indeed, may protect teachers that harm children beyond academics.

Your solution? Haven't seen one yet.

As for vouchers, your 'solution' is to condemn all, rather than help some? Not a good one, imho.

I do believe you have gone off on a subject your really haven't any knowledge or interest in. Even with prodding regarding tenure, you chose not to find the underlying support for the establishment of it. That doesn't preclude the abuses, indeed you'll find that I agree with your push to eliminate, but there needs to be protections for the game changers.

If everyone was an expert in every subject we talked about on this forum, we wouldn't have much to argue about. You are obviously well informed regarding this issue and appreciate your contributions.

Your "OTOH" is obviously what I'm referring to when I condemn teacher tenure. I don't know what the answer to this is and would love to hear your ideas. You also probably know about teachers protest against the tests. I think it's obvious that they have to be tested somehow, but it needs to be applicable.

Yes, I'm a hater of vouchers when it's the only answer. Some money can be spent on them, but most effort should be focused on the public schools themselves. The stereotypical conservative "privatize it" answer to almost everything is, to me, the antithesis to progress on this issue.

My brother in law, who I don't always get along with, blames immigrants on everything. He says if it wasn't for immigrants (illegal or otherwise) we would be leaders of the world in education. He relies on this insight on this subject on his experience as a proctor at a high school. He probably has more behind the scenes knowledge than I do, but I don't trust the word of a grown man who brags about how he can intimidate adolescents.

In the world, we are 25th in math, 14th in reading, and 17th in science and I don't think the solution is more vouchers for private schools and "intelligent design" in science class.

[Kathianne]

If everyone was an expert in every subject we talked about on this forum, we wouldn't have much to argue about. You are obviously well informed regarding this issue and appreciate your contributions.
No, not expert knowledge is required, but certainly a modicum of understanding of the issues? Don't you agree? A quick google can give one some basics.


Your "OTOH" is obviously what I'm referring to when I condemn teacher tenure. I don't know what the answer to this is and would love to hear your ideas. You also probably know about teachers protest against the tests. I think it's obvious that they have to be tested somehow, but it needs to be applicable. I need to run to grocery, I'll address my ideas later, but want to get this post up to see if others have some ideas.


Yes, I'm a hater of vouchers when it's the only answer. Some money can be spent on them, but most effort should be focused on the public schools themselves. The stereotypical conservative "privatize it" answer to almost everything is, to me, the antithesis to progress on this issue.Only answer? Where was that? Again, you are spouting off without researching even for 5 minutes.


My brother in law, who I don't always get along with, blames immigrants on everything. He says if it wasn't for immigrants (illegal or otherwise) we would be leaders of the world in education. He relies on this insight on this subject on his experience as a proctor at a high school. He probably has more behind the scenes knowledge than I do, but I don't trust the word of a grown man who brags about how he can intimidate adolescents. May be a difference in locations, but I'd disagree with your BIL. The problem isn't the immigrants, the problem is expectations.


In the world, we are 25th in math, 14th in reading, and 17th in science and I don't think the solution is more vouchers for private schools and "intelligent design" in science class.

Again, red herring, I KNOW I never brought up ID, indeed if you even had a clue you'd know my take on that.

[Robert A Whit]

"I begin to think there is no single solution to the education problems in this country - no cookie cutter approach. Instead there has to be a start to finish commitment by parents and educators to a long term plan appropriate for that area. " from original post

I agree with this concept, but we need to stop talking about private schools. We have a public school infrastructure in place, we need to fix that and stop talking about diverting money from the public schools to pay for private schools. It's like taking from the police force to pay for private security and that's just dumb.

Teacher tenure ought to go away, but we need to pay them more. We need to test our teachers through student achievement scores, but I'm not sure how. If a student flunks the math portion, what do you do to the P.E. teacher? How do you test P.E.? Teaching to the test is also a short sighted goal.

I'm a liberal, so of course, my knee jerk opinion is federal government intervention. But, what about a modeling program? The best schools in a state models or dictates to the worst schools, or something.

It's a complicated subject, but I wish conservatives would join liberals and at least focus on the same goal: improving our public school system.


There are dozens of solutions depending on who does the speaking.

Get rid of private schools? My two grandsons were educated by their mother, making this private, so you would have deprived those boys a top education by a university graduate mother. She was able to then have both attend a public school but so sought after she had to be part of the line up of families trying to get her boys in. She figured out how to take them to another area for education but in a public school. She values education as does the boys dad so the boys value education. As a result, the oldest should become an aeronautical enginner. With his ultra good grades, built on the foundation his mother helped him build, it looks as if he will go to a top university and get that top education. He wants to be in the forefront of Space. Going well back to the era of the Korean war, when higher education appeared to be better for most kids, parents have had problems with public schools. Not in all areas. Where schools are dominated by caucasians, they ordinarily do much better. We have I am told on CSPAN 12 major centers of problems and those unfortunately are dominated by negros. There is something unique about negros because too many of them are raised by a single mother who has a chip on her shoulder to begin with. She blames caucausians for her problems and she depends on caucasians for survival in direct cash payments to her. She raises sons that are angry far too much and use language like "Uncle Tom" for instance or perhaps the words they used on Colin Powell over him being part of the Bush admin. Even Condoleeza Rice, a highly respected scholar and educator makes no difference to the negros since they still resent republicasns. Actually were republicans are the center role player in education, it turns out pretty well and the drop out rates are much lower than for negros.

So, the problem is clearly with one major group and where there are mixtures of the two groups, problems tend to be awful for the caucasians. They have to fight bigotry and the negros trying hard to get a good education must not let that show too much or other negros will make their lives hell at school.

Society knows what must be done. But their fall back to playing the race card to the detriment of the students makes if very hard to change the negros.

I wish I could leave out race as a problem but the negros won't do well enough so I can discount this problem.

Now I am no educator. But I have an approach that could work in my humble opinion.

Treat education as you treat other comodities.
(1) Bring in administrators that understand administration.
(2) Teachers in all schools must be very qualified.
(3) Fight poor performance using well understood quality control systems.
(4) Work hard to create an environment that gets rid of the negro bigotry and calls for excellence.

Somehow the bond of awful performance being accepted and even encouraged by negro mothers has to be broken. So long as the uneducated mothers don't mind, their kids won't mind being low performers.

Obama had a chance to help lead those negros out of school purgatory but pissed off his time rushing all over America to self promote himself and so forth.

[Robert A Whit]

That's what I mean. The problem is the public schools that need to be fixed. My analogy is a good one. Take away from the police department and give to private investigators?

You say fix the public schools.

Funny how you then don't say that about fixing private schools.

I know why. We have almost no problems at all with private schools.

But you want to keep the Feds involved. They are so far removed from the problems they are the last thing kids need to be lording it over the students. And teachers too.

The two Dakotas have some of the worst teacher incomes but the same teachers produce some of the better students. DC went the route of paying super high wages and though the teachers had more cash on hand, they did not produce the results. And when a well known top official took over the schools, they could hardly wait to get rid of her though she produced tangible results. She actually tried to fix the system. Democrats put a stop to her meddling though she was the top boss over DC schools.

When you tell me it is about money, you tell me that the teachers don't have the kids in mind, they have their own bank account in mind. I don't mind one bit paying for good education but when teachers perform that poorly as in DC and they got enormous raises, something is wrong with your ideas.

Who the hell ever told you that republicans are not for good education? We think, and I am pretty sure I am speaking for republicans, that when you have poor teachers, paying them more is not the problem. Those that care to admit it realize that if the parents are terrible mentors of their own children, leading to my discussion of the typican negro family, they money to the teachers won't lift kids performance.

When teachers have to perform the same duty as a prison guard, it is time to change that.

I am not trying to blame teachers. I believe since they had to meet state standards, they are not the root of the problem. If you give them a drug dealing kid, who has more income than the teacher has, she or he has a serious problem trying to get negros to listen to education.

[Robert A Whit]

Damn lady, you're harsh. Just because I took the article into a different direction you accuse me of malpractice. Vouchers don't improve public schools, it helps some students and ignores the rest.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but teacher tenure protects a teacher after so many years from being terminated. If that's not right, I stand corrected. Nobody in a professional position deserves to have unlimited job security independent of performance.

I applauded what they did in the article. I'm just not sure our country can just kick back and wait for all of the schools to improve without some kind of pressure.

I am not going to call this a voucher, but my daughter managed to get her sons away from her city education system and into a city next to her city where the students perform a lot better.
Had her son stayed in his city education system, he would have faced an uphill fight to get a teacher that did not have to perform as a virtual prison guard. He was able to go to high school where teachers get to teach and not spending valuable teaching time trying to get a class to stop shouting and yelling at said teacher.

She fought hard for waivers so her sons couuld escape the negro schools. And they perform very well in school. She educated them at home for half a dozen years and the boys got a top notch foundation. She has to drive the boys so far to school that she can't have them walk or even use a bus. She is much more able to be there and get them home with no lurking danger to deal with.

[Robert A Whit]

This topic will go nowhere so long as so called liberals try to degrade it by blaming republicans. I think there perhaps is some teacher and school system surveys somewhere that will show that where republicans are the driving factor, those schools perform much better. But when so called liberals are the driving forces, schools are said to perform poorly.

Yet democrats have a strangle hold on public education then they put the blame on successful people. Imagine how illogical that is.

It is very hard for republicans to get the upper hand in CA since the state has enough very large cities where Democrats win but complain their own city is much too violent. Go figure that out.

[bingster]

You say fix the public schools.

Funny how you then don't say that about fixing private schools.
Even if necessary, you wouldn't need to fix private schools because an unsuccessful one would go out of business. All public schools aren't bad either, but the government should be in the business of fixing public, not private schools.

I know why. We have almost no problems at all with private schools.

But you want to keep the Feds involved. They are so far removed from the problems they are the last thing kids need to be lording it over the students. And teachers too.
Like I was saying, I was reluctant to say "feds" because I understand the diversity in the states. Couldn't, however, more action be taken at state level to level the playing field AND increasing performance by more modeling after successful schools. Maybe, for a while more state money should be spent on an underperforming school temporarily then people would get fired if standards aren't reached.

The two Dakotas have some of the worst teacher incomes but the same teachers produce some of the better students. DC went the route of paying super high wages and though the teachers had more cash on hand, they did not produce the results. And when a well known top official took over the schools, they could hardly wait to get rid of her though she produced tangible results. She actually tried to fix the system. Democrats put a stop to her meddling though she was the top boss over DC schools.

When you tell me it is about money, you tell me that the teachers don't have the kids in mind, they have their own bank account in mind. I don't mind one bit paying for good education but when teachers perform that poorly as in DC and they got enormous raises, something is wrong with your ideas.
Money is not all that I'm talking about, I just think that although they have a shorter work year (although I'm a fan of a longer work year) they deserve more than 40K per year (I think that's an average). They should be paid like professionals but, like professionals, should be held accountable or fired.

Who the hell ever told you that republicans are not for good education? We think, and I am pretty sure I am speaking for republicans, that when you have poor teachers, paying them more is not the problem. Those that care to admit it realize that if the parents are terrible mentors of their own children, leading to my discussion of the typican negro family, they money to the teachers won't lift kids performance.
Again, I didn't say "Republicans are not for good education" but rarely do they have better ideas than vouchers and "kill department of education". Our country can not afford to wait for the states to figure it out, and diverting funds to private schools is counterproductive.
When teachers have to perform the same duty as a prison guard, it is time to change that.
You got that right!
I am not trying to blame teachers. I believe since they had to meet state standards, they are not the root of the problem. If you give them a drug dealing kid, who has more income than the teacher has, she or he has a serious problem trying to get negros to listen to education.
I'm on the teachers side, but not. Pay them more, but fire them if they don't measure up. Federal oversight to at least assist and advise according to high performing models is a good thing. Keep shifting funds to private schools to a minimum. Our public schools need the lionshare of our resources and effort. And, by the way, the "negro" is not the only problem either.

[Kathianne]

I'm on the teachers side, but not. Pay them more, but fire them if they don't measure up. Federal oversight to at least assist and advise according to high performing models is a good thing. Keep shifting funds to private schools to a minimum. Our public schools need the lionshare of our resources and effort. And, by the way, the "negro" is not the only problem either.

Reminds me, what is 'enough' salary for teachers? You never did answer that.

[fj1200]

That's what I mean. The problem is the public schools that need to be fixed. My analogy is a good one. Take away from the police department and give to private investigators?

It's a poor analogy. If the police departments performed as abysmally as some of our schools systems with the corruption involved then pulling money away for private security would be a good idea. There is a cost to government granted monopolies and when that cost is minimal, water, electrical, police, etc., then it's worth paying but when the cost is no longer worth paying, many school systems today, then we need a change. So answer me this; if monopolies are bad then why do we suffer them when government runs them?

[Kathianne]

Reminds me, what is 'enough' salary for teachers? You never did answer that.

That '$40k average' includes all the rural schools. In the districts I'm teaching in the average salaries are over $80k, same as urban areas. What pulls down the 'average nationwide' are those districts that can only pay $20k to start and top out at $30 some k. Same as most parochial schools. Doesn't make them good or bad, indeed they are some of the best, but yes, the teachers there are underpaid.

Not so with the vast numbers in suburbs and urban areas.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=616338#post616338)
You say fix the public schools.

Funny how you then don't say that about fixing private schools.
Even if necessary, you wouldn't need to fix private schools because an unsuccessful one would go out of business. All public schools aren't bad either, but the government should be in the business of fixing public, not private schools.

OK, apply that same logic to public schools and we are getting closer.

I know why. We have almost no problems at all with private schools.

But you want to keep the Feds involved. They are so far removed from the problems they are the last thing kids need to be lording it over the students. And teachers too.
Like I was saying, I was reluctant to say "feds" because I understand the diversity in the states. Couldn't, however, more action be taken at state level to level the playing field AND increasing performance by more modeling after successful schools. Maybe, for a while more state money should be spent on an underperforming school temporarily then people would get fired if standards aren't reached.

I am not quarreling with your heart and intentions, only the proposal. If you recall her experience in Washington DC, she tried your solution. She got fired for her efforts. I believe her last name is Rhee. I agree with you and her.

The two Dakotas have some of the worst teacher incomes but the same teachers produce some of the better students. DC went the route of paying super high wages and though the teachers had more cash on hand, they did not produce the results. And when a well known top official took over the schools, they could hardly wait to get rid of her though she produced tangible results. She actually tried to fix the system. Democrats put a stop to her meddling though she was the top boss over DC schools.

When you tell me it is about money, you tell me that the teachers don't have the kids in mind, they have their own bank account in mind. I don't mind one bit paying for good education but when teachers perform that poorly as in DC and they got enormous raises, something is wrong with your ideas.
Money is not all that I'm talking about, I just think that although they have a shorter work year (although I'm a fan of a longer work year) they deserve more than 40K per year (I think that's an average). They should be paid like professionals but, like professionals, should be held accountable or fired.

But if pay is the issue, why didn't more money in DC work? It was not my idea to pay teachers more despite poor performance. Notice that in life, if you are a good athelete, you will earn a lot more than the guy who is just a tad less the athelete. Same in show business. Stars get paid the top wages. The regular who is not the star makes quite a bit less. Teachers I am told use that time during the summer to attend school to become better at their jobs. I don't blame teachers. I don't blame pay. If they make $40,000 per year, starting out, the real issue is how long can an excellent teacher with proven results expect to be paid that sum vs a teacher doing the bare minimum who may not deserve a raise. I may be wrong but I understand that the teachers unions won't stand for the best teachers getting paid a fair wage and they want them paid as if they were average. Maybe some teacher can comment but even so, I believe it varies per state and per district. A teacher working in Los Gatos or Mill Valley probably makes much more than your $40,000 figure.

Who the hell ever told you that republicans are not for good education? We think, and I am pretty sure I am speaking for republicans, that when you have poor teachers, paying them more is not the problem. Those that care to admit it realize that if the parents are terrible mentors of their own children, leading to my discussion of the typican negro family, they money to the teachers won't lift kids performance.
Again, I didn't say "Republicans are not for good education" but rarely do they have better ideas than vouchers and "kill department of education". Our country can not afford to wait for the states to figure it out, and diverting funds to private schools is counterproductive.

Our vast improvements in education happened after WWII and the vets got vouchers. They even got government guarantees to purchase a home though the Feds did not put one dollar towards buying the home.

So the middle class was helped a lot by vouchers and guarantees. For most people today, that can't happen. If your goal is to have more educated people who finished school, why fight a method that works? Keep the kid in mind and lose democrats ideology. We hear of very little problem with private schools. And I am not sayng the best teachers teach there. But somehow the kids seem to perform better. As you admit, if they don't cut the mustard, parents fall back on public schools.
When teachers have to perform the same duty as a prison guard, it is time to change that.
You got that right!
I am not trying to blame teachers. I believe since they had to meet state standards, they are not the root of the problem. If you give them a drug dealing kid, who has more income than the teacher has, she or he has a serious problem trying to get negros to listen to education.



I'm on the teachers side, but not. Pay them more, but fire them if they don't measure up. Federal oversight to at least assist and advise according to high performing models is a good thing. Keep shifting funds to private schools to a minimum. Our public schools need the lionshare of our resources and effort. And, by the way, the "negro" is not the only problem either.

It strikes me as a total waste for the Feds to play any role at all in local schools. They don't ship money, they ship them many conditions. Money is how they control the local schools. That is terrible. While the negro is not the only problem, where they live they are the problem. We have a few in my city and I assure you, I would never have asked my kids to use them as role models.

[DragonStryk72]

I begin to think there is no single solution to the education problems in this country - no cookie cutter approach. Instead there has to be a start to finish commitment by parents and educators to a long term plan appropriate for that area.

This is pretty much dead on. And it is the reason why larger government involvement doesn't work. Its like trying to perform heart surgery with a hammer. No matter how skillful the doctor, the tool is wrong. Larger government only tries to make a blanket solution, where individual solutions are needed, especially individual changes on the entire course of the system.

The larger the government involved, the less it is capable of the numerous small moves needed to accomplish the intended result.

[Robert A Whit]

Average Teacher Salary in Fremont Unified School DistrictThe average teacher salary in Fremont Unified School District is $55,742.

<THEAD>
Grade Level
Average
10th percentile
25th percentile
Median
75th percentile
90th percentile

</THEAD><TBODY>
Pre-school
$33,906
$23,612
$26,837
$31,861
$38,950
$46,807


Kindergarten
$56,554
$36,579
$43,437
$54,353
$70,610
$81,459


Elementary
$62,415
$40,176
$48,769
$61,293
$75,618
$87,315


Middle school
$61,289
$40,081
$48,438
$59,829
$74,055
$85,885


High school
$64,546
$40,972
$50,348
$64,107
$78,555
$90,787

</TBODY>

[Kathianne]

I've not a clue to Fremont School District, including the state. I do know that the average salary for teachers in schools around my local is over $60k, high school districts being over $75k. Top salaries are over $105k. Is that reasonable enough?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I've not a clue to Fremont School District, including the state. I do know that the average salary for teachers in schools around my local is over $60k, high school districts being over $75k. Top salaries are over $105k. Is that reasonable enough?

Outrageous salaries for 9 months work. 36 weeks 75k= over 2000 a week, over 400 bucks a day!!!!
Then add in holiday pay and retirement = health benefits-- simply outrageous IMHO.. --Tyr