Jafar00 is a powerful testimony for Islam

[tailfins]

Jafar, in the entire year I have been on this forum you haven't said a single unkind word to me. Don't think it hasn't gone unnoticed. While my spiritual connection is with Jesus, I cannot deny your world class character when I see it. If the way you conduct yourself is a sample of Islamic culture, I want to become an admirer of that culture. I believe you said Malaysia is one of the better Islamic nations. If I had someone like yourself to guide me to the safest spots, I would gladly visit Islamic nations and even learn Arabic. Playing around with Arabic web forms revealed that the language is written from right to left. Realistically, it takes me two years to learn a language PROPERLY. A language with non-Roman characters might take three. Being a numbers person I realize that Islamic people represent a billion opportunities to make a friend, find a boss and find a neighbor. The respect you show for your Christian employees is particularly inspiring. While it may take a while to find an opportunity to travel overseas, a more ready opportunity would be to visit a local Mosque or Islamic Center.

It's also admirable when people treat you like a turd, you only respond with information and don't get rattled. You are a better man than I.

[aboutime]

Now we're getting into classes of Turds?????

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Jafar, in the entire year I have been on this forum you haven't said a single unkind word to me. Don't think it hasn't gone unnoticed. While my spiritual connection is with Jesus, I cannot deny your world class character when I see it. If the way you conduct yourself is a sample of Islamic culture, I want to become an admirer of that culture. I believe you said Malaysia is one of the better Islamic nations. If I had someone like yourself to guide me to the safest spots, I would gladly visit Islamic nations and even learn Arabic. Playing around with Arabic web forms revealed that the language is written from right to left. Realistically, it takes me two years to learn a language PROPERLY. A language with non-Roman characters might take three. Being a numbers person I realize that Islamic people represent a billion opportunities to make a friend, find a boss and find a neighbor. The respect you show for your Christian employees is particularly inspiring. While it may take a while to find an opportunity to travel overseas, a more ready opportunity would be to visit a local Mosque or Islamic Center.

It's also admirable when people treat you like a turd, you only respond with information and don't get rattled. You are a better man than I.

That he proudly supports Hamas and by doing so supports terrorists makes no difference to you, right? yes, no..

[Drummond]

Jafar, in the entire year I have been on this forum you haven't said a single unkind word to me. Don't think it hasn't gone unnoticed. While my spiritual connection is with Jesus, I cannot deny your world class character when I see it. If the way you conduct yourself is a sample of Islamic culture, I want to become an admirer of that culture. I believe you said Malaysia is one of the better Islamic nations. If I had someone like yourself to guide me to the safest spots, I would gladly visit Islamic nations and even learn Arabic. Playing around with Arabic web forms revealed that the language is written from right to left. Realistically, it takes me two years to learn a language PROPERLY. A language with non-Roman characters might take three. Being a numbers person I realize that Islamic people represent a billion opportunities to make a friend, find a boss and find a neighbor. The respect you show for your Christian employees is particularly inspiring. While it may take a while to find an opportunity to travel overseas, a more ready opportunity would be to visit a local Mosque or Islamic Center.

:puke3::puke3:

Tailfins, I'll give you this much. Jafar is indeed instructive when it comes to what one can infer of Islamic culture and honour.

By his own admission, Jafar has posted nothing whatever on this forum which in any way favours Israel .. but then, one would not expect this of Islamists, or of anyone following 'Islamic culture'.

Also by his own admission, Jafar is a supporter of Hamas, which - in case it failed to grab your attention .. IS A TERRORIST ORGANISATION.

Now, Tailfins, I invite you to explain to me how respect for Christians is compatible with a mindset happy to supply support for savages who happily murder and maim because a 'Charter' of theirs demands they embark on a Jihad which requires this savagery !

As for ...


Being a numbers person I realize that Islamic people represent a billion opportunities to make a friend, find a boss and find a neighbor.

... there have been those who've believed just this, who have gone on to become captives of terrorist cells which have subsequently beheaded them !!

Now, I'm not by any means saying that every Islamist thinks like that. But, really, Tailfins ... some measure of caution is called for. You are showing a specific interest in befriending those adhering to the most aggressive and intolerant creed on the face of this Earth ! If you can find good friends from some of their number, then good luck to you. But do so with at least a LITTLE caution to guide you.

Make what you will of these following links ...

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/ChristianAttacks.htm

http://www.ibtimes.com/iranian-pastor-sentenced-death-global-reaction-320447

http://www.hostageuk.org/terrywaite.php

http://www.meforum.org/713/beheading-in-the-name-of-islam

By the way, have you ever visited Israel ? Have you any interest at all in doing so ?

[tailfins]

That he proudly supports Hamas and by doing so supports terrorists makes no difference to you, right? yes, no..

He just doesn't know any better. It's what he's been fed all his life. I don't agree with him, but I don't look down on him either.


By the way, have you ever visited Israel ? Have you any interest at all in doing so ?

Absolutely. Experience is what life is all about.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He just doesn't know any better. It's what he's been fed all his life. I don't agree with him, but I don't look down on him either.

That is true he does not know any better. I do not claim you should look down on him unless you choose to. That is a personal choice. You should know that should you find yourself in a muslim nation and friends with some if them there --IF- radicals come to take you -to kill you , your new friends will not likely intervene and should they do so they will be killed by those that came for you. Caution is advised. By all means go and explore but be careful.. Should you do so I hope you have a great trip and a safe return!! --Tyr

[Drummond]

He just doesn't know any better. It's what he's been fed all his life. I don't agree with him, but I don't look down on him either.

Nonetheless, Jafar is much-travelled. He's spent years living in foreign cultures that could have supplied him with a more balanced outlook. Besides ... doesn't he come from Australia ? Is Australia - as of this moment, anyway - an 'Islamic State' ?


Absolutely. Experience is what life is all about.

Then do you concede the point I've just made ?

Perhaps, if you're willing, you can persuade Jafar that Israel does not deserve the Jihad which Hamas is committed to, then. It does not deserve having Islamic terrorists sending helpless children, with bombs immovably strapped on to them, on to the streets of Tel Aviv. It does not deserve suffering barrages of missiles fired at its territory from hate-fueled terrorist trash, which, may I remind you again, Jafar SUPPORTS.

[tailfins]

Nonetheless, Jafar is much-travelled. He's spent years living in foreign cultures that could have supplied him with a more balanced outlook. Besides ... doesn't he come from Australia ? Is Australia - as of this moment, anyway - an 'Islamic State' ?



Then do you concede the point I've just made ?

Perhaps, if you're willing, you can persuade Jafar that Israel does not deserve the Jihad which Hamas is committed to, then. It does not deserve having Islamic terrorists sending helpless children, with bombs immovably strapped on to them, on to the streets of Tel Aviv. It does not deserve suffering barrages of missiles fired at its territory from hate-fueled terrorist trash, which, may I remind you again, Jafar SUPPORTS.


I like being around well traveled people. The US is sinking like the Titanic, it's culture is a rotting corpse in no small part thanks to feminism and I have seen the resilience of immigrants. I like to learn as many language as possible and encourage my kids to do the same. I believe the future successful person doesn't align themselves with any country and is prepared to be present for opportunity where ever in the world it may occur. I would be very surprised if my descendants live out their lives in the US. I am blessed to have a knack for learning languages. With Islam we a talking about a billion people. Even if only 10% are part of a positive culture, that's a culture of 100 million people. If a good life can be had in Jerusalem, I will go there. If a good life can be had in Riyadh, that's fine too. Or if by some fluke Boston stays good, outstanding.

[jafar00]

Jafar, in the entire year I have been on this forum you haven't said a single unkind word to me. Don't think it hasn't gone unnoticed. While my spiritual connection is with Jesus, I cannot deny your world class character when I see it. If the way you conduct yourself is a sample of Islamic culture, I want to become an admirer of that culture. I believe you said Malaysia is one of the better Islamic nations. If I had someone like yourself to guide me to the safest spots, I would gladly visit Islamic nations and even learn Arabic. Playing around with Arabic web forms revealed that the language is written from right to left. Realistically, it takes me two years to learn a language PROPERLY. A language with non-Roman characters might take three. Being a numbers person I realize that Islamic people represent a billion opportunities to make a friend, find a boss and find a neighbor. The respect you show for your Christian employees is particularly inspiring. While it may take a while to find an opportunity to travel overseas, a more ready opportunity would be to visit a local Mosque or Islamic Center.

It's also admirable when people treat you like a turd, you only respond with information and don't get rattled. You are a better man than I.

In all of my years, nobody has taken the time to say something so good about anyone let alone to me on internet forums.

I am truly humbled. If you need help with anything I am there for you.

:puke3::puke3:

Tailfins, I'll give you this much. Jafar is indeed instructive when it comes to what one can infer of Islamic culture and honour.

By his own admission, Jafar has posted nothing whatever on this forum which in any way favours Israel .. but then, one would not expect this of Islamists, or of anyone following 'Islamic culture'.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I cannot support tyranny like the Israeli regime any more than I can offer any support at all to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Pol Pot or the Nazis.

[Drummond]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I cannot support tyranny like the Israeli regime any more than I can offer any support at all to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Pol Pot or the Nazis.

But you DO support the tyranny of TERRORISM.

Even if I accept that you don't support Al Qaeda, or the Taliban, or Pol Pot, etc .. you DO support Hamas. And as I keep pointing out, Hamas are terrorists.

You criticise Israel, you say, for not following international law. Yet you have no such complaint to make against ANY act of terrorism Hamas commits. Each and every such act has the potential to kill innocent human beings, people who want no more than to live their lives. But you never criticise those acts.

If, Jafar, you are 'a powerful testimony for Islam', and you support Hamas, and Hamas is Islamic (-IT IS -) .. then check this out ...

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm


The Hamas has a 'military' wing, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, that engages in terrorist acts and a 'civilian' wing that supposedly confines itself to education and 'good works.' Hamas perpetrated numerous suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks, at first in order to sabotage the Oslo Accords and peace process, and then as part of the Second Intifada. Israel successively assassinated its leaders, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Sheikh Ahmed Rantissi, forcing the leadership underground. However, in January of 2006, candidates representing the Hamas swept to victory in Palestinian elections, overcoming the traditional leadership of the Fateh and PLO.

In June of 2006, Hamas affiliates captured an Israeli soldier by tunneling across the border between Gaza and Israel In February of 2007, Hamas, Fateh and other factions entered a unity government in a deal brokered by Saudi Arabia and Egypt. However, in practice, Hamas ruled Gaza on its own. It formed the Executive Force over the protests of the Fatah and Palestinian Authority. The Executive force was a combination internal police force, political force to be used against Hamas opponents and terrorist group. In June of 2007, Hamas ousted Fatah forces from Gaza in a bloody coup, throwing Fatah members off the roofs of buildings after shooting them in the knees. At least one Fatah member was sliced into steaks that were sent to his family.

Since Gaza had been totally evacuated by Israel in the unilateral disengagement of 2005, Hamas currently (2009) rules Gaza as a de facto state government. It has used Gaza as a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel. On June 19, 2008, Israel and Hamas concluded a "lull" or Tahdiya agreement that was brokered by Egypt. Hamas, but not Israel, declared that this truce was for a period of six months. Rocket fire from Gaza was reduced but not stopped. Hamas greatly stepped up smuggling of arms through tunnels beneath the Egyptian controlled Rafah crossing. Hamas dismissed the international monitors that were to have controlled the Rafah crossing, and then declared that Gaza is "under siege."

Israel retaliated for rocket fire by closing the Israeli crossings periodically. On December 18, 2008, Hamas declared that they would not renew the truce. Thereafter, Hamas and associated organizations directed a rain of rocket and mortar fire at Israeli towns and cities, reaching as far as 45 KM away with Grad rockets that had been smuggled in during the lull period. On December 26, 2008, Israel launched operation Cast Lead, attacking the Hamas in Gaza at first by air and later in a limited ground invasion.
Aren't Hamas 'nice', eh, Jafar ? 'Decent human beings' .. worth supporting, are they ? You talk of Israel's supposed tyranny. Let's see you condemn what Hamas gets up to ...

This, from the above link, quoted from the Hamas Charter ..


"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).


"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."



The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution.When you support Hamas, you support terrorism. Jihad - 'in the sense of armed battle'. Hamas are not about negotiation. Not about compromise. Most certainly, they're not, never will be, about PEACE. No, all they want is to kill their way to their bloodsoaked victory.

AND YOU SUPPORT THIS, JAFAR.


One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith:


Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:


"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).




The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take."
Damning stuff, eh, Jafar ? And you've the gall to speak of ISRAELI 'tyranny' .. !!!!

[aboutime]

That is true he does not know any better. I do not claim you should look down on him unless you choose to. That is a personal choice. You should know that should you find yourself in a muslim nation and friends with some if them there --IF- radicals come to take you -to kill you , your new friends will not likely intervene and should they do so they will be killed by those that came for you. Caution is advised. By all means go and explore but be careful.. Should you do so I hope you have a great trip and a safe return!! --Tyr


Tyr. That statement alone...above. Should be all any of us have to say on the subject.

Personally. I see any attempts for anyone to help justify the Phoniness offered by jafar as nothing more than extended dishonesty by jafar.

He is successful, much like Obama is successful in managing to fool One Person at a time, or thousands at a time.
That is the method our enemies always use...no matter how long it takes, as long as they succeed in convincing others THEY ARE THE VICTIMS.

[jafar00]

But you DO support the tyranny of TERRORISM.

Even if I accept that you don't support Al Qaeda, or the Taliban, or Pol Pot, etc .. you DO support Hamas. And as I keep pointing out, Hamas are terrorists.

You criticise Israel, you say, for not following international law. Yet you have no such complaint to make against ANY act of terrorism Hamas commits. Each and every such act has the potential to kill innocent human beings, people who want no more than to live their lives. But you never criticise those acts.

If, Jafar, you are 'a powerful testimony for Islam', and you support Hamas, and Hamas is Islamic (-IT IS -) .. then check this out ...

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm


Aren't Hamas 'nice', eh, Jafar ? 'Decent human beings' .. worth supporting, are they ? You talk of Israel's supposed tyranny. Let's see you condemn what Hamas gets up to ...

This, from the above link, quoted from the Hamas Charter ..

When you support Hamas, you support terrorism. Jihad - 'in the sense of armed battle'. Hamas are not about negotiation. Not about compromise. Most certainly, they're not, never will be, about PEACE. No, all they want is to kill their way to their bloodsoaked victory.

AND YOU SUPPORT THIS, JAFAR.


Damning stuff, eh, Jafar ? And you've the gall to speak of ISRAELI 'tyranny' .. !!!!


Are you quite finished posting the hate?

Ok, it's all in the interpretation of a Hadith and a proper scholar of Hadith sciences will take into account not just the text of the Hadith, but any related Hadiths and verses of the Qur'aan.

Harun Yahya has something to say about that Hadith that may help you understand the meaning.


Stones and trees calling out 'kill the Jews',' as revealed in the hadiths, is meant in a figurative sense. A believer will not act according to a voice coming from stones and trees and will not kill an innocent person. A Muslim acts solely according to the moral values of the Qur'an



<tbody>
Abu Huraira (ra) reported Allah's Messenger (saas) as saying:

“The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews. The Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: ‘Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him;’ but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”
(Sahih Muslim, Kitab al-Fitan wa Ashrat as-Sa'ah, Book 41, 6985)

“So that Jews will hide behind trees and the tree will say “Muslim! The servant of Allah! Come, look there is a Jew behind me, he hid here, behind me, come and punish him”. Only the tree Gharqad will not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.”
(Kitab al-Fitan, hadith. 2239)

</tbody>

One statement by Mr. Adnan Oktar concerning hadiths in which our Prophet (saas) refers to “stones and trees in the End Times telling Muslims the location of Jews hiding behind them and saying ‘Come and kill them’,” reads:

“We look at events in the light of the Qur’an and the hadiths. But one cannot issue a pronouncement on the basis of one single verse in the Qur’an. One must look at the verses as a whole. The same applies to the hadiths. The other hadiths complement one another. Therefore, if someone comes and tells us, ‘There is a Jew here, come and kill him,’ we will not kill him. Why should we? That person would have to commit a crime. And if he commits a crime he will have to be tried. And the judge will pronounce sentence at the end of the trial. There is a whole system and legal procedure involved. It does not mean that anyone who sees him can kill him and try him himself. We can see what this hadith means by looking at others. Otherwise, it is a sin to kill an innocent Jew, a person, a child, standing there, and heed a voice from a stone telling us to kill them. That is unacceptable. We must grasp what our Prophet (saas) really means. It would appear the hadith means this: Jews who are atheists or enemies of religion cannot hide. Those who hide among wood or stones will be located using all kinds of electrical devices and equipment, and the evil and activities of these people will thus be prevented, and that will be a punishment for them. That is what the hadith may be implying. (From Mr. Adnan Oktar’s interview on Adiyaman Asu TV and Kackar TV on June 3, 2010) (http://%20http//tr.harunyahya.tv/videoDetail/Product/27114/WHAT_IS_THE_EXPLANATION_OF_THE_GHARGAD_TREE_MENTIO NED_IN_THE_HADITH?)
http://tr.harunyahya.tv/videoDetail/Product/27114/WHAT_IS_THE_EXPLANATION_OF_THE_GHARGAD_TREE_MENTIO NED_IN_THE_HADITH? (http://tr.harunyahya.tv/videoDetail/Product/27114/WHAT_IS_THE_EXPLANATION_OF_THE_GHARGAD_TREE_MENTIO NED_IN_THE_HADITH?)

Mr. Oktar interprets this clearly figurative hadith in a very wise fashion. The content of the hadith is obviously figurative because the verses of the Qur’an regarding killing are quite explicit. It is clear that no decision to kill can be taken on the basis of producing a pronouncement on the basis of a voice from stone, trees or wood. There is no verse to that effect in the Qur’an. According to the Qur’an, a Muslim learns from the Qur’an, not from tree or wood. Nowhere in the Qur’an is it revealed that a tree or wood can bear witness for a Muslim. According to the Qur’an, it is what Muslims bear witness to that matters.

Allah compares hypocrites to “blocks of wood” in the Qur’an (Surat al-Munafiqun, 4). Allah also compares unbelievers to rock, “your hearts became as hard as rocks.” (Surat al-Baqara, 74) A Muslim does not behave according to rocks and wood. He acts according to what other Muslims say.

It is incompatible with the Qur’an and unlawful for an innocent person to be killed according to a statement issued from a stone. To say that such a ruling can be given without trying that person would mean to say that the voice from the stone was revelation (Surely Allah is beyond that). It would therefore be insanity, murder, to say, “I killed a man because of a voice from a stone” or “A rock told me, and I killed him.” A Muslim would never act in such a way toward anyone without trying them as the law demands.

If rulings were to be extracted from rock or wood, then what the rock or wood said would be regarded as Divine revelation. Since no other book apart from the Qur’an will come, to say such a thing would be to claim that rock or wood would reign over us (Surely Allah is beyond that). A Muslim acts by the light of the Qur’an and the hadiths of our Prophet (saas), not rock and wood. If a person regards stone and wood as issuing revelation, if he says, “what a rock says is revelation, rock bestows revelation on me, stone and wood rule me,” then he is departing from the religion. Under that belief, the rock might tell him other things, too. It will say anything and cause the person to do other things. There are no verses in the Qur’an concerning a Muslim obeying rock and wood.

In addition, Jews are people given protection in the time of our Prophet (saas) and who followed Muslims. The compassion and justice shown by the Prophet (saas) in the light of the Qur’an, acted as a role model for subsequent Muslim rulers. Allah says in the Qur’an,"... Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to taqwa” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 8). Allah also commands Muslims to ensure the safety even of the idolaters (pagans who do not heed Allah’s revelation): "If any of the idolaters ask you for protection, give them protection until they have heard the words of Allah. Then convey them to a place where they are safe...." (Surat at-Tawba, 6) A Muslim will therefore uphold justice, for Allah’s sake, in the face of anyone and everyone and will only seek solutions to all matters as revealed in the Qur’an.


Just so you know, and I think I have said this before. I don't support Hamas in many things that they do. In fact I would condemn a great many things they do. What I do support however is their struggle against Israeli tyranny.

[tailfins]

Tyr. That statement alone...above. Should be all any of us have to say on the subject.

Personally. I see any attempts for anyone to help justify the Phoniness offered by jafar as nothing more than extended dishonesty by jafar.

He is successful, much like Obama is successful in managing to fool One Person at a time, or thousands at a time.
That is the method our enemies always use...no matter how long it takes, as long as they succeed in convincing others THEY ARE THE VICTIMS.

It boils down to experience and what various people are like to be around. Over the last 2-3 years since the great recession, fundamental, particularly Southern fundamental Christians have disappointed me greatly. I moved Tennessee to get a boost from being nearly destitute thinking it was "God's country". It was an unmitigated disaster. What saved my bacon was a social worker in Massachusetts who loosely applied the rules to get me some resources. Some kind people at Harvard rescued my career. My ONLY tie to Christ is spiritual. Looking for Christian fruit is like walking the Sahara Desert. I'm particularly sickened by people that introduce themselves with a Bible verse, wearing their faith on their sleeve. They remind me of the lyrics from the Joe South song.


People walking up to you Singing glory hallelulia And they're tryin' to sock it to you In the name of the Lord

Read more: JOE SOUTH - GAMES PEOPLE PLAY LYRICS (http://www.metrolyrics.com/games-people-play-lyrics-joe-south.html#ixzz2JuBn46J9)



And they remind me of this music video. Notice the "St. John 3:16 Jesus Saves" at 0:28 .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbbA6x1JIGA

[Marcus Aurelius]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I cannot support tyranny like the Israeli regime any more than I can offer any support at all to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, Pol Pot or the Nazis.

STILL waiting for you to tell us if you still take the Red Cross version of events in regards to the Holocaust and the murder of 6 million Jews by the Nazis.

First, they said it didn't happen... then you said THAT is what you trust and go by... then they said it really did happen... and you disappeared from the thread like a little bitch.

[jimnyc]

I don't agree with much religiously or politically with Jafar. But I often remind myself that he just takes a different stance, and is willing to place into words these stances and share it with us, even if it goes against what is popular here in the US or the UK. Does this make him a bad person? Nope, I think actions make someone a bad person. And other than being sarcastic via humor, he's never been anything but polite with everyone, even when faced with endless posts that are not quite as friendly in return. I believe, after awhile, the person who is truly behind the keyboard will expose themselves in their posts. Based on that, I'm of the belief that Jafar is a good man, a peaceful and caring man, a patient man, a loving man and a family man. He'd be loved here if it weren't for his religion and stance on certain hot topics around the world. I know I'm going to get nailed by some, stating that if he was peaceful he wouldn't be supporting Hamas or going against Israel... We all have our beliefs and opinions. I hope people don't think I'm a bad person based on some of my more unpopular views on certain topics.

Does this mean I have changed my own stance on topics, or that I agree with Jafar? Nope, I still think some of his views are out in left field, or for the birds! :lol: That just makes him unpopular to some, not a bad guy.

[tailfins]

STILL waiting for you to tell us if you still take the Red Cross version of events in regards to the Holocaust and the murder of 6 million Jews by the Nazis.

First, they said it didn't happen... then you said THAT is what you trust and go by... then they said it really did happen... and you disappeared from the thread like a little bitch.

As an observation, I would say he doesn't answer because there's no point in looking for negativity. It will find you on it's own. There are so many points of view swirling around out there, it's easy to understand that almost any point of view will gain some followers. The best barometer is how they treat people who are in their presence.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=614703#post614703)
STILL waiting for you to tell us if you still take the Red Cross version of events in regards to the Holocaust and the murder of 6 million Jews by the Nazis.

First, they said it didn't happen... then you said THAT is what you trust and go by... then they said it really did happen... and you disappeared from the thread like a little bitch.



As an observation, I would say he doesn't answer because there's no point in looking for negativity. It will find you on it's own. There are so many points of view swirling around out there, it's easy to understand that almost any point of view will gain some followers. The best barometer is how they treat people who are in their presence.

Right, like I said... he's a little bitch.

[tailfins]

I don't agree with much religiously or politically with Jafar. But I often remind myself that he just takes a different stance, and is willing to place into words these stances and share it with us, even if it goes against what is popular here in the US or the UK. Does this make him a bad person? Nope, I think actions make someone a bad person. And other than being sarcastic via humor, he's never been anything but polite with everyone, even when faced with endless posts that are not quite as friendly in return. I believe, after awhile, the person who is truly behind the keyboard will expose themselves in their posts. Based on that, I'm of the belief that Jafar is a good man, a peaceful and caring man, a patient man, a loving man and a family man. He'd be loved here if it weren't for his religion and stance on certain hot topics around the world. I know I'm going to get nailed by some, stating that if he was peaceful he wouldn't be supporting Hamas or going against Israel... We all have our beliefs and opinions. I hope people don't think I'm a bad person based on some of my more unpopular views on certain topics.

Does this mean I have changed my own stance on topics, or that I agree with Jafar? Nope, I still think some of his views are out in left field, or for the birds! :lol: That just makes him unpopular to some, not a bad guy.


Outstanding post! What truly matters is how someone treats people who are in their presence. One learns that lesson when put in a position of needing to accept whatever help is given. If Hillary Clinton herself delivered a bag of groceries when my family was hungry, all I would say is "Thank you".

[Marcus Aurelius]

I don't agree with much religiously or politically with Jafar. But I often remind myself that he just takes a different stance, and is willing to place into words these stances and share it with us, even if it goes against what is popular here in the US or the UK. Does this make him a bad person? Nope, I think actions make someone a bad person. And other than being sarcastic via humor, he's never been anything but polite with everyone, even when faced with endless posts that are not quite as friendly in return. I believe, after awhile, the person who is truly behind the keyboard will expose themselves in their posts. Based on that, I'm of the belief that Jafar is a good man, a peaceful and caring man, a patient man, a loving man and a family man. He'd be loved here if it weren't for his religion and stance on certain hot topics around the world. I know I'm going to get nailed by some, stating that if he was peaceful he wouldn't be supporting Hamas or going against Israel... We all have our beliefs and opinions. I hope people don't think I'm a bad person based on some of my more unpopular views on certain topics.

Does this mean I have changed my own stance on topics, or that I agree with Jafar? Nope, I still think some of his views are out in left field, or for the birds! :lol: That just makes him unpopular to some, not a bad guy.

What makes him a bad guy are things like being more concerned about the welfare of someone who breaks into his home, than of his wife or children. He has already shown he'd do little to nothing if an intruder raped or killed his wife while he was there. THAT, is what makes him a bad guy.

[jimnyc]

What makes him a bad guy are things like being more concerned about the welfare of someone who breaks into his home, than of his wife or children. He has already shown he'd do little to nothing if an intruder raped or killed his wife while he was there. THAT, is what makes him a bad guy.

We have millions here in America that won't arm themselves in any way, shape or form, even for the defense of their families. I think they are naive in their stance. And God forbid they ever lost someone in that manner, and weren't able to protect them, I think they would change their stance fairly quickly. Many of us prefer to be prepared and never have to have a regret such as that. But I honestly don't see them as bad people. I shake my head at the line of thinking at times, but people make their own choices in life.

[aboutime]

The One, and Only thing I find even slightly powerful concerning jafar's testimony for Islam is. The endless attempts he has made, that I call persistence...in hoping his techniques. Much like those same techniques used by Obama, and the Democrats of Repeating Known Lies so often, that they eventually become true to those who repeat them.

In other words. Liars are the Masters of their Trade. And that trade is, and always will be DECEIT...better known as Lies.

[tailfins]

The One, and Only thing I find even slightly powerful concerning jafar's testimony for Islam is. The endless attempts he has made, that I call persistence...in hoping his techniques. Much like those same techniques used by Obama, and the Democrats of Repeating Known Lies so often, that they eventually become true to those who repeat them.

In other words. Liars are the Masters of their Trade. And that trade is, and always will be DECEIT...better known as Lies.

Lighten up, Francis.

[aboutime]

Lighten up, Francis.


I would agree with you if what I just posted was ITSELF a LIE. But Lightening UP...is exactly why, and how this nation has fallen into the spiral of endless stupidity by so many Americans who voted for someone who ALSO wanted them to Lighten Up...just long enough for him to Destroy our nation.

If we lighten up, and stop EXPOSING, or TELLING the truth.

We all lose. So. Tell someone else to lighten up. I haven't begun Defending myself, and our fellow Americans yet.

[tailfins]

I would agree with you if what I just posted was ITSELF a LIE. But Lightening UP...is exactly why, and how this nation has fallen into the spiral of endless stupidity by so many Americans who voted for someone who ALSO wanted them to Lighten Up...just long enough for him to Destroy our nation.

If we lighten up, and stop EXPOSING, or TELLING the truth.

We all lose. So. Tell someone else to lighten up. I haven't begun Defending myself, and our fellow Americans yet.

Trying to put a BILLION people in a little descriptive box defies logic. What if this truth you speak of only applies to 100 THOUSAND of them?

[aboutime]

Trying to put a BILLION people in a little descriptive box defies logic. What if this truth you speak of only applies to 100 THOUSAND of them?


Suppose you tell us WHICH 100 THOUSAND of them YOU are speaking about???

[tailfins]

Suppose you tell us WHICH 100 THOUSAND of them YOU are speaking about???

That task would take multiple lifetimes. Do remember the permutations and combinations from high school math? Think of 1 BILLION, choose 100 THOUSAND. I'm not doubting your information, only whether it is a representative sample of the whole of Islam.

[aboutime]

That task would take multiple lifetimes. Do remember the permutations and combinations from high school math? Think of 1 BILLION, choose 100 THOUSAND. I'm not doubting your information, only whether it is a representative sample of the whole of Islam.


Get back to all of us when you stop TALKING IN CIRCLES.

[Drummond]

Are you quite finished posting the hate?

'Hate', you say ?

I'll tell you what I have been posting, and that's THE TRUTH.


Ok, it's all in the interpretation of a Hadith and a proper scholar of Hadith sciences will take into account not just the text of the Hadith, but any related Hadiths and verses of the Qur'aan.

That Hadith may be a part of the picture, but even if you remove consideration of it altogether, you're still left with one simple reality: Hamas are TERRORISTS who commit TERRORIST ACTS against INNOCENTS.


Just so you know, and I think I have said this before. I don't support Hamas in many things that they do. In fact I would condemn a great many things they do.

Yeah ... sure. This is an understandable stance to take, since you know - when it comes down to it - that unreserved support for Hamas is indefensible. So, you're attempting a damage limitation exercise.


What I do support however is their struggle against Israeli tyranny.

I wonder how many times I'll have to say this, before the message is properly acknowledged, Jafar ? HAMAS IS A TERRORIST ORGANISATION.

Do you get that ?

They exist to be terrorists. They always have done, and to this day they will not renounce violence as their goal. You talk about 'Israeli tyranny', but Israel is a legitimate Nation State, NOT a band of terrorists committed to committing MURDER against a Nation State, as Hamas is.

Nowhere in your reply, Jafar, do you mention the Hamas Charter, which I already have. WHY ? Because, Jafar, in considering it, you'd have to acknowledge the extent of their 'hate' for Israel and for Jews. Further, you'd have to accept Hamas's assertion that Jihadist acts against Jews was seen as an Islamic act. Jafar .. this is what Hamas is all about. And Jafar, if you support Hamas AT ALL, and you claim YOU DO, then it is that hatred which you are supporting.

So do me a favour. Don't carp on about my supposed 'hate' ... not when you tie yourself by association to a terrorist organisation which exists purely to hate, and to convert that hatred into MASS MURDER.

[Drummond]

Trying to put a BILLION people in a little descriptive box defies logic. What if this truth you speak of only applies to 100 THOUSAND of them?

What makes you believe that the correct figure is 100,000 ? Based on what, exactly ?

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that the figure is accurate ... that it really amounts to that small a percentage of the 1 billion.

OK ... how many terrorists participated in 9/11 ? If the full 100,000 went ahead and launched further such attacks, how many 9/11's would that make ?

How many Hamas terrorists does it take to launch, and sustain, rocket attacks against Israel ? And from the daily accounts appearing on this forum of terrorist atrocities in the world ... how small a percentage of that 100,000 are responsible for them ?

Can you tell me of any Christian equivalent of these numbers ... or, these terrorist acts ? NO ... because you know that Christianity could never support such acts. So tell me ... how is it that Islam DOES ?

[aboutime]

'Hate', you say ?

I'll tell you what I have been posting, and that's THE TRUTH.



That Hadith may be a part of the picture, but even if you remove consideration of it altogether, you're still left with one simple reality: Hamas are TERRORISTS who commit TERRORIST ACTS against INNOCENTS.



Yeah ... sure. This is an understandable stance to take, since you know - when it comes down to it - that unreserved support for Hamas is indefensible. So, you're attempting a damage limitation exercise.



I wonder how many times I'll have to say this, before the message is properly acknowledged, Jafar ? HAMAS IS A TERRORIST ORGANISATION.

Do you get that ?

They exist to be terrorists. They always have done, and to this day they will not renounce violence as their goal. You talk about 'Israeli tyranny', but Israel is a legitimate Nation State, NOT a band of terrorists committed to committing MURDER against a Nation State, as Hamas is.

Nowhere in your reply, Jafar, do you mention the Hamas Charter, which I already have. WHY ? Because, Jafar, in considering it, you'd have to acknowledge the extent of their 'hate' for Israel and for Jews. Further, you'd have to accept Hamas's assertion that Jihadist acts against Jews was seen as an Islamic act. Jafar .. this is what Hamas is all about. And Jafar, if you support Hamas AT ALL, and you claim YOU DO, then it is that hatred which you are supporting.

So do me a favour. Don't carp on about my supposed 'hate' ... not when you tie yourself by association to a terrorist organisation which exists purely to hate, and to convert that hatred into MASS MURDER.



Sir Drummond. What I find most telling from jafar is. He admits he doesn't fully disagree with the actions of Hamas. He has admitted it several times.
But his problem is far more reaching, and deeper than he is willing to admit. Playing the Wordsmithing games with semantics, and rhetorical tricks that prevent him from fully disclosing his near TOTAL HATRED FOR ISRAEL.
Notice how he always finds a way to say "I have friends who are Jews, or Israeli...but I hate what their country stands for in their attempts to destroy, and kill his brethren in the Brotherhood of HATRED". A hatred we all know is...HAMAS.

[Drummond]

I don't agree with much religiously or politically with Jafar. But I often remind myself that he just takes a different stance, and is willing to place into words these stances and share it with us, even if it goes against what is popular here in the US or the UK. Does this make him a bad person? Nope, I think actions make someone a bad person. And other than being sarcastic via humor, he's never been anything but polite with everyone, even when faced with endless posts that are not quite as friendly in return. I believe, after awhile, the person who is truly behind the keyboard will expose themselves in their posts. Based on that, I'm of the belief that Jafar is a good man, a peaceful and caring man, a patient man, a loving man and a family man. He'd be loved here if it weren't for his religion and stance on certain hot topics around the world. I know I'm going to get nailed by some, stating that if he was peaceful he wouldn't be supporting Hamas or going against Israel... We all have our beliefs and opinions. I hope people don't think I'm a bad person based on some of my more unpopular views on certain topics.

Does this mean I have changed my own stance on topics, or that I agree with Jafar? Nope, I still think some of his views are out in left field, or for the birds! :lol: That just makes him unpopular to some, not a bad guy.

Jim, on this very thread I've posted evidence of what the Hamas Charter has to say. The Hamas Charter guides the thinking and the intent behind Hamas.

For all of Jafar's 'politeness', he remains (apparently, now, with certain limits ?) supportive of Hamas. To support the TERRORIST organisation of Hamas, he must support its aims.

Jafar is entitled to his views, as are we all. But he is also 'entitled' to take responsibility for them. That he expresses himself 'politely' doesn't excuse him from this.

Here's a link to an article about another polite individual ...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/a-polite-confident-young-man-born-to-great-wealth-20110502-1e588.html


From the age of 13 bin Laden attended the Western-style Al Thagh school in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. The teacher who tutored him in English remembers a tall, handsome and unfailingly polite teenager who stood out because of his serene self-confidence.I for one would rather address Jafar's continuing support for terrorists, than the manner of his expression. I happen to think it has relevance ...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I don't agree with much religiously or politically with Jafar. But I often remind myself that he just takes a different stance, and is willing to place into words these stances and share it with us, even if it goes against what is popular here in the US or the UK. Does this make him a bad person? Nope, I think actions make someone a bad person. And other than being sarcastic via humor, he's never been anything but polite with everyone, even when faced with endless posts that are not quite as friendly in return. I believe, after awhile, the person who is truly behind the keyboard will expose themselves in their posts. Based on that, I'm of the belief that Jafar is a good man, a peaceful and caring man, a patient man, a loving man and a family man. He'd be loved here if it weren't for his religion and stance on certain hot topics around the world. I know I'm going to get nailed by some, stating that if he was peaceful he wouldn't be supporting Hamas or going against Israel... We all have our beliefs and opinions. I hope people don't think I'm a bad person based on some of my more unpopular views on certain topics.

Does this mean I have changed my own stance on topics, or that I agree with Jafar? Nope, I still think some of his views are out in left field, or for the birds! :lol: That just makes him unpopular to some, not a bad guy.

He openly admits that he supports Hamas. Now if his support is purely ideological that's one thing but if its financial and/or based upon his actively giving of his time to their evil cause then its an entirely different ballgame IMHO!
The first is a mental activity that pretty much just harms himself only but the other directly harms innocent people.
How good or how bad he truly is depends upon exactly what kind of support he gives Hamas. Monetary support if he gives it puts him right into the pit with them IMHO.
Unless he volunteers such information we truly do not know. We can hazard a guess but knowing is not 100%..
I can see the possibility that he only gives "spiritual" support and have acted accordingly. He does his image no good when he censors my posts(ignores) by claiming that I insult him and rant too much. When he does not ignore another member that is far worse at doing that than I. That points to his actually putting me on ignore in order to dodge the TRUTH that I post complete with linked sources. I find that tactic by him to be cowardly and totally dishonest as well.-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

What makes you believe that the correct figure is 100,000 ? Based on what, exactly ?

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that the figure is accurate ... that it really amounts to that small a percentage of the 1 billion.

OK ... how many terrorists participated in 9/11 ? If the full 100,000 went ahead and launched further such attacks, how many 9/11's would that make ?

How many Hamas terrorists does it take to launch, and sustain, rocket attacks against Israel ? And from the daily accounts appearing on this forum of terrorist atrocities in the world ... how small a percentage of that 100,000 are responsible for them ?

Can you tell me of any Christian equivalent of these numbers ... or, these terrorist acts ? NO ... because you know that Christianity could never support such acts. So tell me ... how is it that Islam DOES ?

The acknowledged low estimate is 10% .. Ten percent of a billion is 100 million not 100 thousand!!
And that estimate is acknowledged by many experts on Islam as being low!

[Drummond]

The acknowledged low estimate is 10% .. Ten percent of a billion is 100 million not 100 thousand!!
And that estimate is acknowledged by many experts on Islam as being low!
:clap::clap::clap:

[gabosaurus]

I sense some serious religious intolerance here.
You people should actually admire jafar. He is a successful self-made businessman who has succeeded on his own. Yet you remain intolerant of his religion, even when he continues to distance himself from the more extremist factions.

It would be like me continually slagging Catholics for continuing to support a religion that tolerates the sexual abuse of children. Even the Pope is guilty. Perhaps he is a child molester himself.

[Drummond]

He openly admits that he supports Hamas. Now if his support is purely ideological that's one thing but if its financial and/or based upon his actively giving of his time to their evil cause then its an entirely different ballgame IMHO!
The first is a mental activity that pretty much just harms himself only but the other directly harms innocent people.
How good or how bad he truly is depends upon exactly what kind of support he gives Hamas. Monetary support if he gives it puts him right into the pit with them IMHO.
Unless he volunteers such information we truly do not know. We can hazard a guess but knowing is not 100%..
I can see the possibility that he only gives "spiritual" support and have acted accordingly. He does his image no good when he censors my posts(ignores) by claiming that I insult him and rant too much. When he does not ignore another member that is far worse at doing that then I. That points to his actually putting me on ignore in order to dodge the TRUTH that I post complete with linked sources. I find that tactic by him to be cowardly and totally dishonest as well.-Tyr

The boldened bit of the quote I have some slight trouble with, Tyr.

This 'mental activity' leads to the posts we see. Now, what if (and we've seen Tailfins's posts) Jafar's posts come across as sufficiently persuasive as to have an effect on others' perceptions ? What - depending on the individual involved - could that lead to ?

It doesn't necessarily follow that the harm will be limited to just one person.

This is partly why I think that replies to Jafar have value .. to make it starkly clear exactly what the realities in play truly are.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I sense some serious religious intolerance here.
You people should actually admire jafar. He is a successful self-made businessman who has succeeded on his own. Yet you remain intolerant of his religion, even when he continues to distance himself from the more extremist factions.

It would be like me continually slagging Catholics for continuing to support a religion that tolerates the sexual abuse of children. Even the Pope is guilty. Perhaps he is a child molester himself.

What do you know? You admitted your admiration of Islam. You now ignore his admitted support for Hamas!
Now you spew out a false comparison and think it clever.
Jafar ran from my linked sources then he had the gall and audacity to lie about why he did so.
Pissing into the wind seems to be a favorite past time of yours along with defending enemies of this nation!--Tyr

[Drummond]

I sense some serious religious intolerance here.
You people should actually admire jafar. He is a successful self-made businessman who has succeeded on his own. Yet you remain intolerant of his religion, even when he continues to distance himself from the more extremist factions.

It would be like me continually slagging Catholics for continuing to support a religion that tolerates the sexual abuse of children. Even the Pope is guilty. Perhaps he is a child molester himself.

You want me to ADMIRE a terrorist supporter ???

Gabby, go and read the Hamas Charter .. and see for yourself some REAL intolerance. And yes, it has a religious base. Oh, but wait ... are we all showing INTOLERANCE for not being TOLERANT to those supportive of such INTOLERANCE ?

You know, if Hamas were just a campus debating society, that would be one thing. But what we're talking about here is terrorists who convert their hatreds into perpetual persecution of a race ... which finds its expression as acts of murderous terrorism.

Enter Jafar on to the scene .. a supporter of the organisation responsible for those acts ... TERRORIST ACTS ....

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The boldened bit of the quote I have some slight trouble with, Tyr.

This 'mental activity' leads to the posts we see. Now, what if (and we've seen Tailfins's posts) Jafar's posts come across as sufficiently persuasive as to have an effect on others' perceptions ? What - depending on the individual involved - could that lead to ?

It doesn't necessarily follow that the harm will be limited to just one person.

This is partly why I think that replies to Jafar have value .. to make it starkly clear exactly what the realities in play truly are.
Yes, I debated with myself on leaving that in or changing it. However here I think his posts only get admiration from those already predisposed to do so. Not so much for their content but more for the good feeling they get helping him because he pretty much stands alone here. A pity and feel good glorification party some people seem to enjoy. Where they truly with him they would attempt to disprove the linked posts but instead they avoid those TOOOOOOOOOOO!-Tyr

[Drummond]

Yes, I debated with myself on leaving that in or changing it. However here I think his posts only get admiration from those already predisposed to do so. Not so much for their content but more for the good feeling they get helping him because he pretty much stands alone here. A pity and feel good glorification party some people seem to enjoy. Where they truly with him they would attempt to disprove the linked posts but instead they avoid those TOOOOOOOOOOO!-Tyr

Fair enough then. Although ... not everybody looking in on this forum will be a member of it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Fair enough then. Although ... not everybody looking in on this forum will be a member of it.

ahhh, point well scored Drummond. . I should have deleted that line but in some cases it stands well.

[tailfins]

I sense some serious religious intolerance here.
You people should actually admire jafar. He is a successful self-made businessman who has succeeded on his own. Yet you remain intolerant of his religion, even when he continues to distance himself from the more extremist factions.

It would be like me continually slagging Catholics for continuing to support a religion that tolerates the sexual abuse of children. Even the Pope is guilty. Perhaps he is a child molester himself.

I do actually admire Jafar for exactly those reasons. As far as the rest of your post, you're just supposed to think those things, not say them. It puts you on the same page as the pre-1930s KKK.

[Drummond]

I do actually admire Jafar for exactly those reasons. As far as the rest of your post, you're just supposed to think those things, not say them. It puts you on the same page as the pre-1930s KKK.

If you're so determined to admire Jafar, then go to it.

For my part, I have never admired a terrorist supporter (and one who picks and chooses what he prefers to recognise, ignoring everything else likely to get in the way). And .. I never will.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If you're so determined to admire Jafar, then go to it.

For my part, I have never admired a terrorist supporter. And I never will.


Well stated my friend and any man worth his salt will agree..

Damn sure will be a cold day in hell before I ever admire a terrorist or a terrorist supporter!--Tyr

[aboutime]

If you're so determined to admire Jafar, then go to it.

For my part, I have never admired a terrorist supporter (and one who picks and chooses what he prefers to recognise, ignoring everything else likely to get in the way). And .. I never will.


Sir Drummond. Almost sounds as if the THOUGHT POLICE are slowly working their way into our psych in subliminal ways. For a visitor, reading this thread for the first time. They might be led to believe a family relationship exists with jafar by some members.

[Drummond]

Well stated my friend and any man worth his salt will agree..

Damn sure will be a cold day in hell before I ever admire a terrorist or a terrorist supporter!--Tyr

... and again ... :clap::clap::clap:

[bingster]

Anyone see John Stewart's Daily Show?

Seems Iran just retrieved their monkey from space the other day. Three years ago they sent up a worm, turtle, and a mouse.

John Stewart is calling the Persian astronauts Shi'a Pets.

Get it?:laugh:

Sh Sh Sh Shia!!!!

[jafar00]

I wonder how many times I'll have to say this, before the message is properly acknowledged, Jafar ? HAMAS IS A TERRORIST ORGANISATION.

Do you get that ?

Yes I get it. And Hamas do some things that are forbidden in Islam such as that recent incident where they tied the corpse of an Israeli spy to a motorbike and dragged it through the street despite it being forbidden to desecrate a corpse. Any corpse.

However the old saying one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter rings true here.

You know MEK, and Jundullah are terrorists too right? However the US/UK supports them because they are attacking innocent Iranians instead. Just like the US/UK support for Iyyad Allawi and his group the Iraqi National Accord in Iraq. He was responsible for blowing up a bus full of schoolchildren before the fall of Saddam, yet he was rewarded by being installed at the Prime Minister of Iraq!

While Hamas may do many things I don't agree with, if they can achieve freedom for the Palestinians, they can have my support. Palestine has been under siege for over 60 years now. 60 years of war, oppression and misery.


Can you tell me of any Christian equivalent of these numbers ... or, these terrorist acts ? NO ... because you know that Christianity could never support such acts. So tell me ... how is it that Islam DOES ?

The Spanish Inquisition was supported by Christianity as were the crusades. What about the LRA? Joseph Kony claimed to be divinely inspired and the Irish have been at each other's throats for years over the Catholic/Protestant divide. It's slightly annoying that Christians are blind to atrocities committed in the name of their religion while pointing fingers at others.

The bottom line is that neither Christianity nor Islam support terrorism yet history is replete with examples of bad people doing bad things while claiming to be acting according to their religion despite being very wrong about it.

I've been asking people for years to come up with some evidence to support their claim that Islam condones terrorism, yet nobody has been able to come up with the goods. I regret typing that last sentence as I fully expect a copy/paste barrage from some hate blog to "prove" it.


Jim, on this very thread I've posted evidence of what the Hamas Charter has to say. The Hamas Charter guides the thinking and the intent behind Hamas.

For all of Jafar's 'politeness', he remains (apparently, now, with certain limits ?) supportive of Hamas. To support the TERRORIST organisation of Hamas, he must support its aims.

Jafar is entitled to his views, as are we all. But he is also 'entitled' to take responsibility for them. That he expresses himself 'politely' doesn't excuse him from this.

Here's a link to an article about another polite individual ...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/a-polite-confident-young-man-born-to-great-wealth-20110502-1e588.html

I for one would rather address Jafar's continuing support for terrorists, than the manner of his expression. I happen to think it has relevance ...

Ok, just call me Osama then.


Anyone see John Stewart's Daily Show?

Seems Iran just retrieved their monkey from space the other day. Three years ago they sent up a worm, turtle, and a mouse.

John Stewart is calling the Persian astronauts Shi'a Pets.

Get it?:laugh:

Sh Sh Sh Shia!!!!

I don't get it....

[fj1200]

...and one who picks and chooses what he prefers to recognise, ignoring everything else likely to get in the way...

pot... kettle... goose... gander...

[Marcus Aurelius]

I've been asking people for years to come up with some evidence to support their claim that Islam condones terrorism, yet nobody has been able to come up with the goods..

Islam does NOTHING to combat terrorism within its ranks. THAT, is the evidence, dumb ass.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

pot... kettle... goose... gander...

Practicing cooking or spelling???;)

[tailfins]

I don't get it....

Chia
http://stillinthestorm.com/sites/default/files/chia-pet.jpg

Shia
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2012/2/22/1329907609540/A-Shia-Muslim-man-in-pray-007.jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Islam does NOTHING to combat terrorism within its ranks. THAT, is the evidence, dumb ass.

That is the very damning evidence most people happily ignore.. There are no anti-terrorist groups going out and eliminating terrorists within the religion, the tribal and internecine combat between the major groups in Islam are not about that. All the groups agree infidels are to be killed and " Jihad is the way"-Tyr

[tailfins]

That is the very damning evidence most people happily ignore.. There are no anti-terrorist groups going out and eliminating terrorists within the religion, the tribal and internecine combat between the major groups in Islam are not about that. All the groups agree infidels are to be killed and " Jihad is the way"-Tyr

Maybe, maybe not. I will decide when I see for myself.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Maybe, maybe not. I will decide when I see for myself.

Well, I just hope your gained knowledge doesn't come when you are being executed like Daniel Pearl was!
He represented no opposition to the muslim cause yet he was captured and videoed being beheaded out of convenience. Presenting himself as a known and easy target. And one that provided a convenient execution to video to instill far greater fear of those that dare even question Islam's authority over all mankind!! Think about that..
I strongly suggest that you be extremely careful should you go there.-Tyr

[aboutime]

Practicing cooking or spelling???;)


Tyr. I see those two as a pair of JAFAR converts to defending Terrorism. They know who they are. No names needed. (sound like tailfins, and fj..Hint, Hint)

Just watch the reactions.

[Drummond]

Yes I get it. And Hamas do some things that are forbidden in Islam such as that recent incident where they tied the corpse of an Israeli spy to a motorbike and dragged it through the street despite it being forbidden to desecrate a corpse. Any corpse.

Perhaps you can explain something to me ?

How is it that, given what you say, Islam cares a lot more about the desecration of a corpse (.. EVEN IF HAMAS DOES NOT ..) than actually CAUSING corpses ??


However the old saying one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter rings true here.

It does nothing of the kind. Hamas don't even BEGIN to qualify as so-called 'freedom fighters'.

I've been asking you how your study of the Hamas Charter has been progressing ... and you've not answered. No matter. Perhaps I can assist you with a couple of telling quotes ?

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

From its Article 13 ...


Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.Could that be any clearer ???


There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."



Not 'peace seeking', are they, Jafar ? RATHER, THEY TOTALLY REJECT PEACE AS ANY MEANS OF RESOLUTION, PREFERRING MURDEROUS HATRED .. JIHAD.


Article Twenty-Three:

The Islamic Resistance Movement views other Islamic movements with respect and appreciation. If it were at variance with them on one point or opinion, it is in agreement with them on other points and understandings. It considers these movements, if they reveal good intentions and dedication to Allah, that they fall into the category of those who are trying hard since they act within the Islamic circle.

They clearly claim themselves to be broadly in line with Islamic thinking ... meaning, they don't consider Islam as any path to peace .. but the exact opposite.


Article Twenty-Eight:

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Much of the Hamas Charter is a message of bigoted hatred. That Article is an example of such teaching. Fact .. Hamas wants ONLY war .. ONLY bloodshed and murder.

Jafar, if - and I somehow doubt it - you ARE any seeker of 'peace', if terrorism at its worst revolts you, then read the Hamas Charter in its entirety. Understand from it that Hamas is totally dedicated to achieving its aims through murderous hatred, and absolutely rejects peace even as an option. Hamas only wants to destroy those it considers its adversaries.

When you speak of Israel's so-called 'tyranny', Jafar, BEAR THAT IN MIND.


You know MEK, and Jundullah are terrorists too right? However the US/UK supports them because they are attacking innocent Iranians instead.

I'd never heard of either group until now. So, I've done a bit of research .. 'naughty' ol' me, eh ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jundullah


Jundallah, or Jondollah ("Soldiers of God"), also known as People's Resistance Movement of Iran (PRMI), is a militant organization based in Pakistan that claimed to be fighting for the rights of Sunni Muslims in Iran. It was allegedly founded by Abdolmalek Rigu who was captured and executed in Iran in 2010. It is believed to have between 700 to 2,000 fighters and is said to be responsible for killing 154 and injuring 320 Iranian citizens since 2003, while Jundullah commanders claim the group has killed up to 400 Iranian soldiers.

The group has been designated a terrorist organisation by Iran, and the United States and it has been linked to, and taken credit for, numerous acts of terror, kidnapping and the smuggling of narcotics. According to many sources, the group is linked to al Qaeda ..

The US, then, supports a group that IT designates a terrorist group ??? Not very credible, now, is it ??

As for the MEK ..

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/26/us-iran-usa-idUSBRE88P0B420120926


(Reuters) - Iran condemned the planned removal of the Iranian dissident group Mujahadin-e Khalq (MEK) from the United States' list of terrorist organizations, Iranian media reported on Wednesday.

U.S. officials said last week that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had made the decision to remove MEK from the list, handing a political victory to a group once sheltered by Iraqi leader, and arch-foe of Iran, Saddam Hussein.

The group, also known as the People's Mujahideen Organization of Iran, calls for the overthrow of Iran's clerical leaders and fought alongside Saddam's forces in the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s. It also led a guerrilla campaign against the U.S. backed Shah of Iran during the 1970s, including attacks on American targets.

"By taking this step the government of America must be held accountable for the blood of thousands of Iranians and Iraqis assassinated by members of this sectarian group," said Ramin Mehmanparast, spokesman for the Iranian foreign ministry, the Mehr news agency reported on Wednesday.

The U.S. decision comes after years of intense lobbying by the MEK, which had seen many of its members stranded in Iraq even as the group fell out of Baghdad's favor after Saddam's downfall.

The United States added the MEK to its list of foreign terrorist organizations in 1997. But the group has since said it renounced violence and mounted a vigorous legal and public relations campaign to have the designation dropped, including endorsements by prominent former U.S. public officials.

... So, then. The MEK was formerly also on the US's terrorist list, and was only removed from it courtesy of Hillary Clinton, LAST YEAR.

NOW, JAFAR .. HOW COME THE FACTS DON'T MATCH YOUR CLAIM OF SUPPORT OF EACH OF THESE GROUPS BY THE US ???

I think I see something in common between each claim, however. Each assertion is in line, is it not, with what IRAN would prefer the world to believe.


While Hamas may do many things I don't agree with, if they can achieve freedom for the Palestinians, they can have my support. Palestine has been under siege for over 60 years now. 60 years of war, oppression and misery.

Well, Jafar, a proper reading of the Hamas Charter can leave the reader with no room for doubt .. Hamas ONLY wants war, ONLY wants to pursue its bloodlust against Jews, and in so doing, it claims to represent the spirit of Islam. If THAT is what you support, Jafar, SHAME ON YOU.


Ok, just call me Osama then.

... Fair enough ...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Perhaps you can explain something to me ?

How is it that, given what you say, Islam cares a lot more about the desecration of a corpse (.. EVEN IF HAMAS DOES NOT ..) than actually CAUSING corpses ??



It does nothing of the kind. Hamas don't even BEGIN to qualify as so-called 'freedom fighters'.

I've been asking you how your study of the Hamas Charter has been progressing ... and you've not answered. No matter. Perhaps I can assist you with a couple of telling quotes ?

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

From its Article 13 ...

Could that be any clearer ???



Not 'peace seeking', are they, Jafar ? RATHER, THEY TOTALLY REJECT PEACE AS ANY MEANS OF RESOLUTION, PREFERRING MURDEROUS HATRED .. JIHAD.



They clearly claim themselves to be broadly in line with Islamic thinking ... meaning, they don't consider Islam as any path to peace .. but the exact opposite.



Much of the Hamas Charter is a message of bigoted hatred. That Article is an example of such teaching. Fact .. Hamas wants ONLY war .. ONLY bloodshed and murder.

Jafar, if - and I somehow doubt it - you ARE any seeker of 'peace', if terrorism at its worst revolts you, then read the Hamas Charter in its entirety. Understand from it that Hamas is totally dedicated to achieving its aims through murderous hatred, and absolutely rejects peace even as an option. Hamas only wants to destroy those it considers its adversaries.

When you speak of Israel's so-called 'tyranny', Jafar, BEAR THAT IN MIND.



I'd never heard of either group until now. So, I've done a bit of research .. 'naughty' ol' me, eh ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jundullah



The US, then, supports a group that IT designates a terrorist group ??? Not very credible, now, is it ??

As for the MEK ..

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/26/us-iran-usa-idUSBRE88P0B420120926



... So, then. The MEK was formerly also on the US's terrorist list, and was only removed from it courtesy of Hillary Clinton, LAST YEAR.

NOW, JAFAR .. HOW COME THE FACTS DON'T MATCH YOUR CLAIM OF SUPPORT OF EACH OF THESE GROUPS BY THE US ???

I think I see something in common between each claim, however. Each assertion is in line, is it not, with what IRAN would prefer the world to believe.



Well, Jafar, a proper reading of the Hamas Charter can leave the reader with no room for doubt .. Hamas ONLY wants war, ONLY wants to pursue its bloodlust against Jews, and in so doing, it claims to represent the spirit of Islam. If THAT is what you support, Jafar, SHAME ON YOU.



... Fair enough ...

Appears that your vigilance has now put you squarely on Jafar's ignore list.. Hit him too hard with the truth and bingo, he turns on the truth-ignore button...- :laugh:--Tyr

[Drummond]

Appears that your vigilance has now put you squarely on Jafar's ignore list.. Hit him too hard with the truth and bingo, he turns on the truth-ignore button...- :laugh:--Tyr

'Heartbreaking news' .. !! .. :laugh::dance:

[aboutime]

'Heartbreaking news' .. !! .. :laugh::dance:



Wow! How terrible is that? Guess that explains why jafar never answers our questions as well. Liberally speaking. That's how a good terrorist supporter works. Like the famous school-yard bully who Throws Mud-balls...then hides to avoid being discovered.

[jafar00]

MEK was designated as a terrorist organisation as they killed Americans in the past and killed others in all sorts of horrible ways. After much lobbying and bribes to politicians and other high profile Americans, MEK was miraculously delisted.

As for Jundullah and other terrorist groups the US is supporting...

the CIA is giving arms-length support, supplying money and weapons, to an Iranian militant group, Jundullah, which has conducted raids into Iran from bases in Pakistan.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1552784/Bush-sanctions-black-ops-against-Iran.html)
America is secretly funding militant ethnic separatist groups in Iran in an attempt to pile pressure on the Islamic regime to give up its nuclear programme.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1543798/US-funds-terror-groups-to-sow-chaos-in-Iran.html)
One of the most active and violent anti-regime groups in Iran today is the Jundallah, also known as the Iranian People’s Resistance Movement, which describes itself as a resistance force fighting for the rights of Sunnis in Iran. “This is a vicious Salafi organization whose followers attended the same madrassas as the Taliban and Pakistani extremists,” Nasr told me. “They are suspected of having links to Al Qaeda and they are also thought to be tied to the drug culture.” The Jundallah took responsibility for the bombing of a busload of Revolutionary Guard soldiers in February, 2007. At least eleven Guard members were killed. According to Baer and to press reports, the Jundallah is among the groups in Iran that are benefitting from U.S. support.

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh#ixzz2KIc1nJLr

Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh reported that the US military trained members of an Iranian group in Nevada beginning in 2005, adding that American intelligence continues to be transferred to the MEK for use in operations that include the assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists.

According to Hersh, the training was conducted at a site located some 65 miles northwest of Las Vegas. He said the site was once used for nuclear testing and now includes a counterintelligence training facility and a private airport capable of handling Boeing 737 aircraft.

Wait.... so the US trained MEK in 2005, but they were still a listed terrorist organisation until 2012. Under US law <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2339B" href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2339B">18 USC § 2339B - Providing material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations<a/> shouldn't Bush be serving life in prison right now?

[Drummond]

MEK was designated as a terrorist organisation as they killed Americans in the past and killed others in all sorts of horrible ways. After much lobbying and bribes to politicians and other high profile Americans, MEK was miraculously delisted.

As for Jundullah and other terrorist groups the US is supporting...

the CIA is giving arms-length support, supplying money and weapons, to an Iranian militant group, Jundullah, which has conducted raids into Iran from bases in Pakistan.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1552784/Bush-sanctions-black-ops-against-Iran.html)
America is secretly funding militant ethnic separatist groups in Iran in an attempt to pile pressure on the Islamic regime to give up its nuclear programme.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1543798/US-funds-terror-groups-to-sow-chaos-in-Iran.html)
One of the most active and violent anti-regime groups in Iran today is the Jundallah, also known as the Iranian People’s Resistance Movement, which describes itself as a resistance force fighting for the rights of Sunnis in Iran. “This is a vicious Salafi organization whose followers attended the same madrassas as the Taliban and Pakistani extremists,” Nasr told me. “They are suspected of having links to Al Qaeda and they are also thought to be tied to the drug culture.” The Jundallah took responsibility for the bombing of a busload of Revolutionary Guard soldiers in February, 2007. At least eleven Guard members were killed. According to Baer and to press reports, the Jundallah is among the groups in Iran that are benefitting from U.S. support.

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh#ixzz2KIc1nJLr

Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh reported that the US military trained members of an Iranian group in Nevada beginning in 2005, adding that American intelligence continues to be transferred to the MEK for use in operations that include the assassination of Iranian nuclear scientists.

According to Hersh, the training was conducted at a site located some 65 miles northwest of Las Vegas. He said the site was once used for nuclear testing and now includes a counterintelligence training facility and a private airport capable of handling Boeing 737 aircraft.

Wait.... so the US trained MEK in 2005, but they were still a listed terrorist organisation until 2012. Under US law 18 USC § 2339B - Providing material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2339B) shouldn't Bush be serving life in prison right now?

A couple of points in answering you - -

Firstly, note (IF the reports you refer to are true !) what this boils down to.

Looking over the material you've provided, and IF I take the notice of it you'd like me to, apparently this so-called 'support' you speak of was part of a War on Terror initiative ? The US had highly understandable concerns about Iran's nuclear ambitions, so acted in pursuance of them. So - IF, I repeat, IF, there's anything to what you've posted, its point of origin must br Ahmadinejad's holocaustal threat to 'wipe Israel off the map', which his regime has striven to make good on, ever since !!!

Perhaps this is a case of terrorism breeding terrorism ?

Secondly .. should we take your material on face value ? Or, is there a lot more to be considered ?

I have a Leftie friend here in the UK. He sends me emails, and we argue political points in them. When he sends me 'sources' for his assertions, the first thing I do is to check whether they have a Left wing bias (.. for example, he took to sending me quotes from articles from sources, only for me to subsequently identify them as John Pilger rantings, and Pilger is about as Leftie as you can get !). So ... I checked out the author you've referenced, Seymour Hersh. Turns out .. SURPRISE, SURPRISE .. that Hersh is A LEFTIE. Moreover, he was writing against a President Bush 'initiative' .. meaning that what we REALLY have here is a bias piece, written by a Leftie, to attack his political opposition.

So, I ask myself, should I believe what's offered ? Or, should I reject it as a smear against a political opponent ? Or, should I assume that what 'facts' are presented are not quite as they seem, and that either distortions are present, or contexts missing ?

I note that Hersh has been quite a mudslinger in his time .. he specialises in that sort of thing (so no investigative agenda there, then !!). He is also happy to contribute to Left wing publications, much as Pilger has been happy to contribute to the Morning Star on occasions .. Britain's one COMMUNIST 'news'paper. Amongst these, Hersh contributed to 'The New Republic', for which Wikipedia reports ...


Domestically, TNR as of 2011 supports a largely modern liberal stance on fiscal and social issues, according to editor Franklin Foer, who stated that it "invented the modern usage of the term 'liberal', and it's one of our historical legacies and obligations to be involved in the ongoing debate over what exactly liberalism means and stands for." As of 2004, however, some, like Anne Kossedd and Steven Rendall, contend that it is not as liberal as it was before 1974 ..

Source ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Republic

'NOT AS LIBERAL' .. well .. see THIS ..


New Republic editor Michael Whitney Straight (1948 to 1956) was later discovered to be a spy for the KGB, recruited into the same network as Donald Maclean, Guy Burgess, Kim Philby and Anthony Blunt. Straight's espionage activities began at Cambridge during the 1930s; he later claimed that they ceased during World War II. Later, shortly before serving in Kennedy administration, he revealed his past ties and turned in fellow spy Anthony Blunt. In return for his cooperation, his own involvement was kept secret and he continued to serve in various capacities for the US Government until he retired. Straight admitted to his involvement in his memoirs; however, subsequent documents obtained from the former KGB after the fall of the Soviet Union indicated that he drastically understated the extent of his espionage activities ...

'No biases there, then ...'

As for its current editor ...


(Chris) Hughes was the coordinator of online organizing for Barack Obama's 2008 presidential campaign on My.BarackObama.com, the campaign's online social networking website

Hersh himself has commentary to offer on his own accuracy ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh


Hersh made a distinction between the standards of strict factual accuracy for his print reporting and the leeway he allows himself in speeches, in which he may talk informally about stories still being worked on or blur information to protect his sources. "Sometimes I change events, dates, and places in a certain way to protect people... I can’t fudge what I write. But I can certainly fudge what I say."

Some of Hersh's speeches concerning the Iraq War have described violent incidents involving U.S. troops in Iraq. In July 2004, during the height of the Abu Ghraib scandal, he alleged that American troops sexually assaulted young boys:

'Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children, in cases that have been recorded, the boys were sodomized, with the cameras rolling, and the worst above all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking. That your government has. They’re in total terror it’s going to come out.'

In a subsequent interview with New York magazine, Hersh regretted that "I actually didn’t quite say what I wanted to say correctly...it wasn’t that inaccurate, but it was misstated. The next thing I know, it was all over the blogs. And I just realized then, the power of—and so you have to try and be more careful."[/COLOR]
This 'reporter' had already been reporting for DECADES .. yet, he needed to learn an accuracy lesson THEN ??

So perhaps understandably, I have reason to question anything originating from Hersh !!!

Hersh has a long-standing reputation for muckraking, Jafar. He very happily contributes to Left-wing publications, whatever their past associations, and does so in such a way as to undermine, if he can, ONGOING Conservative policy initiatives. Like my Left wing friend here in the UK, Hersh has his Left wing agenda, which he continues to follow ... with admitted VARIABLE accuracy, ACCORDING TO HIS NEED OF IT AT THE MOMENT.

Hersh has his agenda. You have yours. You're pro-Hamas, a terrorist organisation. But you're more inclined, it seems, to be critical of terrorists working against the Ahmadinejad regime ? Now, why is that ?

There is a pattern. Hamas is virulently anti-Israel, as its Hamas Charter shows in all its thoroughly disgusting detail. Ahmadinejad's regime .. well, he's never retracted his threat to 'wipe Israel off the map', nor has he even slackened his rush to arm Iran with nukes.

... and as you recently admitted, Jafar, you have NEVER posted a pro-Israeli message on this forum yourself.

Need I say more ?

[Marcus Aurelius]

A couple of points in answering you - -

Firstly, note (IF the reports you refer to are true !) what this boils down to.

Looking over the material you've provided, and IF I take the notice of it you'd like me to, apparently this so-called 'support' you speak of was part of a War on Terror initiative ? The US had highly understandable concerns about Iran's nuclear ambitions, so acted in pursuance of them. So - IF, I repeat, IF, there's anything to what you've posted, its point of origin must br Ahmadinejad's holocaustal threat to 'wipe Israel off the map', which his regime has striven to make good on, ever since !!!

Perhaps this is a case of terrorism breeding terrorism ?

Secondly .. should we take your material on face value ? Or, is there a lot more to be considered ?

I have a Leftie friend here in the UK. He sends me emails, and we argue political points in them. When he sends me 'sources' for his assertions, the first thing I do is to check whether they have a Left wing bias (.. for example, he took to sending me quotes from articles from sources, only for me to subsequently identify them as John Pilger rantings, and Pilger is about as Leftie as you can get !). So ... I checked out the author you've referenced, Seymour Hersh. Turns out .. SURPRISE, SURPRISE .. that Hersh is A LEFTIE. Moreover, he was writing against a President Bush 'initiative' .. meaning that what we REALLY have here is a bias piece, written by a Leftie, to attack his political opposition.

So, I ask myself, should I believe what's offered ? Or, should I reject it as a smear against a political opponent ? Or, should I assume that what 'facts' are presented are not quite as they seem, and that either distortions are present, or contexts missing ?

I note that Hersh has been quite a mudslinger in his time .. he specialises in that sort of thing (so no investigative agenda there, then !!). He is also happy to contribute to Left wing publications, much as Pilger has been happy to contribute to the Morning Star on occasions .. Britain's one COMMUNIST 'news'paper. Amongst these, Hersh contributed to 'The New Republic', for which Wikipedia reports ...



Source ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Republic

'NOT AS LIBERAL' .. well .. see THIS ..



'No biases there, then ...'

As for its current editor ...



Hersh himself has commentary to offer on his own accuracy ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh


This 'reporter' had already been reporting for DECADES .. yet, he needed to learn an accuracy lesson THEN ??

So perhaps understandably, I have reason to question anything originating from Hersh !!!

Hersh has a long-standing reputation for muckraking, Jafar. He very happily contributes to Left-wing publications, whatever their past associations, and does so in such a way as to undermine, if he can, ONGOING Conservative policy initiatives. Like my Left wing friend here in the UK, Hersh has his Left wing agenda, which he continues to follow ... with admitted VARIABLE accuracy, ACCORDING TO HIS NEED OF IT AT THE MOMENT.

Hersh has his agenda. You have yours. You're pro-Hamas, a terrorist organisation. But you're more inclined, it seems, to be critical of terrorists working against the Ahmadinejad regime ? Now, why is that ?

There is a pattern. Hamas is virulently anti-Israel, as its Hamas Charter shows in all its thoroughly disgusting detail. Ahmadinejad's regime .. well, he's never retracted his threat to 'wipe Israel off the map', nor has he even slackened his rush to arm Iran with nukes.

... and as you recently admitted, Jafar, you have NEVER posted a pro-Israeli message on this forum yourself.

Need I say more ?

Jahil looked at your post, and all he saw was 'INFIDEL'.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Jahil looked at your post, and all he saw was 'INFIDEL'.

And he thought , "say more"!?? Crap, I need a crew of helpers just to start to try to spin against that TRUTH..:laugh2:

[Drummond]

Jahil looked at your post, and all he saw was 'INFIDEL'.:laugh::laugh::laugh2::laugh::cool:

[Drummond]

And he thought , "say more"!?? Crap, I need a crew of helpers just to start to try to spin against that TRUTH..:laugh2::clap::clap::clap:

[tailfins]

And he thought , "say more"!?? Crap, I need a crew of helpers just to start to try to spin against that TRUTH..:laugh2:

It's more likely that he took a break from a long queue of tasks to complete and asked himself: "Is this REALLY taking a break?"

[Drummond]

It's more likely that he took a break from a long queue of tasks to complete and asked himself: "Is this REALLY taking a break?"

Considering that we lack information on that 'long queue of tasks' .. how to judge ?

We don't even know if, or to what extent, that 'long queue of tasks' involves the dedicated pursuit of an agenda which friends of his may be pleased to set him ...

[tailfins]

Considering that we lack information on that 'long queue of tasks' .. how to judge ?

We don't even know if, or to what extent, that 'long queue of tasks' involves the dedicated pursuit of an agenda which friends of his may be pleased to set him ...

Jafar wants to get you A LOAN!

[Drummond]

Jafar wants to get you A LOAN!

Why ?

More importantly, using what funds, gathered .. HOW ?

[tailfins]

Why ?

More importantly, using what funds, gathered .. HOW ?

You're too angry to appreciate a good pun.

[Drummond]

You're too angry to appreciate a good pun.

A pun, eh ?

So, Jafar doesn't appreciate public debate where he fails to make the progress he hopes for ?

Well, this is his problem rather than mine, Tailfins. I didn't ask him to take the position he does .. he takes full responsibility for that.

He can (at least, I assume he can !!) abandon support for his terrorist chums, and abandon support for vicious rogue regimes (those ruling Gaza, Iran ..) any time he likes.

[jafar00]

A pun, eh ?

So, Jafar doesn't appreciate public debate where he fails to make the progress he hopes for ?

Well, this is his problem rather than mine, Tailfins. I didn't ask him to take the position he does .. he takes full responsibility for that.

He can (at least, I assume he can !!) abandon support for his terrorist chums, and abandon support for vicious rogue regimes (those ruling Gaza, Iran ..) any time he likes.

So your only response to me is that Seymour Hersh is a "Lefty"? And I tried so hard to keep partisanship out of the discussion.

And your only defence to the accusation of the US using terrorist groups aligned with Al Qaeda and the Taliban was that the US is concerned about Iran's nuclear program and Ahmedinejad's discredited wiped from the map mistranslation?

Is that really an excuse?

[Drummond]

So your only response to me is that Seymour Hersh is a "Lefty"? And I tried so hard to keep partisanship out of the discussion.

(Sigh) ... Jafar ... if you're going to reply to my posts, it really helps if you make an effort to READ what it is you're replying to !!

Yes, Seymour Hersh is indeed a Leftie And Jafar, who on this forum really doubts that Lefties are propagandists ?

But I said more than just that. I pointed out that Hersh is a muckraker, who's made a living out of exactly that 'style' of journalism. And more than that .. I supplied you with evidence, reported as coming from Hersh HIMSELF, that on occasions he can be .. well .. 'somewhat liberal' with accuracy.

So all of this, I suggest .. and it's an obvious conclusion that anybody engaging more than four brain cells can readily discern .. makes Hersh RATHER LESS THAN A TOTALLY RELIABLE A SOURCE OF 'INFORMATION'.


And your only defence to the accusation of the US using terrorist groups aligned with Al Qaeda and the Taliban was that the US is concerned about Iran's nuclear program and Ahmedinejad's discredited wiped from the map mistranslation?

WHAT 'mistranslation' .. ??

Are you an Ahmadinejad propagandist-wannabe, Jafar ?

You say it yourself. This issue of 'US using terrorist groups aligned with Al Qaeda and the Taliban' is an assertion reported as coming from a source who's outed HIMSELF as unreliable !!!!!!! How do any of us know any of it is true ?

For my part, Jafar, I prefer a combination of commonsense and decency, to doubt the report. But for your part, Jafar, you have your willingness to support Jew-hating terrorists, along with being an apologist for a Jew-hating maniacal dwarf, to guide you in believing what YOU find it more convenient to accept.


Is that really an excuse?

Nope. I don't think it is.

Talking about maniacal dwarfs, Jafar ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel


Exchanges between Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel have demonstrated strained relations between the Iranian President and the Jewish State. These exchanges have been characterized by contentious speeches and statements, including calls to "eliminate the Zionist regime" (Israel). Ahmadinejad has questioned the existence of the Holocaust, took part in a protest called "World Without Zionism" and has derided Israel on numerous occasions. He has urged regional powers to cut ties with Israel and halt oil sales. Tensions have risen over Iran's nuclear program.


On 11 December 2006, at the "International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust", a gathering of Holocaust deniers in Tehran, Ahmadinejad said: "Thanks to people's wishes and God's will the trend for the existence of the Zionist regime is [headed] downwards and this is what God has promised and what all nations want. The Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was, and humanity will achieve freedom."
Must be another of those, er'm, 'mistranslations', eh, Jafar ?


On Israel's 60th birthday, Ahmadinejad said:
Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken. Today the reason for the Zionist regime's existence is questioned, and this regime is on its way to annihilation."

Ahmadinejad also stated that Israel "has reached the end like a dead rat after being slapped by the Lebanese." Later, he said: "The Zionist regime is dying," and "The criminals imagine that by holding celebrations (...) they can save the Zionist regime from death." Ahmadinejad also stated that "They should know that regional nations hate this fake and criminal regime and if the smallest and briefest chance is given to regional nations they will destroy (it)".

Such a 'lovely gentleman', eh, Jafar .. and so often 'mistranslated' !!!


In July 2012, ahead of Qods Day, Ahmdainejad said that "any freedom lover and justice seeker in the world must do its best for the annihilation of the Zionist Regime in order to pave the path for the establishment of justice and freedom in the world," and that the ultimate objective of world forces must be the annihilation of the "Zionist regime".

... and 'mistranslated' AGAIN ...... !!!! .....


In August 2012, at an annual protest against the existence of Israel, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that "the very existence of the Zionist regime is an insult to humanity" and that "the Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumor. Even if one cell of them is left in one inch of (Palestinian) land, in the future this story (of Israel's existence) will repeat." Ahmadinejad also said that Israel would soon be finished off, and that “the nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land".

.... and so it continues ....

Ahmadinejad and Hamas. What's Ahmadinejad's thinking on Hamas ? See ...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/ahmadinejad-iran-will-support-hamas-until-collapse-of-israel-1.253714


Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad vowed Friday to keep supporting the Palestinian militant group Hamas until the "collapse of Israel."

The Iranian news agency Khabar quoted Ahmadinejad as telling Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh that Iran views the support of the Palestinian people as part of its religious and national duty and that Iran will stand behind the Palestinian nation "until the big victory feast which is the collapse of the Zionist regime."

In a phone conversation between the two leaders, the Iranian president said that the continued Hamas resistance against Israel and the group's achievements would always be "a source of pride for all Muslims."

Iran does not acknowledge the sovereignty of Israel and vowed to support Hamas until what Ahmadinejad calls "deliverance from Zionists (Israel)."

No surprises there. They both want the demise of Israel. QED.

And YOU, Jafar, want to continue to indicate SUPPORT of Iran, and notably Hamas ... don't you, Jafar ? Your support of Hamas terrorists has been stated. Your disapproval of terrorists who act against the Iranian regime is evident. And you try to dismiss Ahmadinejad anti-Israel statements (the 'wipe off the map' one, certainly) as a MISTRANSLATION.

Feeling proud, Jafar ?

[aboutime]

(Sigh) ... Jafar ... if you're going to reply to my posts, it really helps if you make an effort to READ what it is you're replying to !!

Yes, Seymour Hersh is indeed a Leftie And Jafar, who on this forum really doubts that Lefties are propagandists ?

But I said more than just that. I pointed out that Hersh is a muckraker, who's made a living out of exactly that 'style' of journalism. And more than that .. I supplied you with evidence, reported as coming from Hersh HIMSELF, that on occasions he can be .. well .. 'somewhat liberal' with accuracy.

So all of this, I suggest .. and it's an obvious conclusion that anybody engaging more than four brain cells can readily discern .. makes Hersh RATHER LESS THAN A TOTALLY RELIABLE A SOURCE OF 'INFORMATION'.



WHAT 'mistranslation' .. ??

Are you an Ahmadinejad propagandist-wannabe, Jafar ?

You say it yourself. This issue of 'US using terrorist groups aligned with Al Qaeda and the Taliban' is an assertion reported as coming from a source who's outed HIMSELF as unreliable !!!!!!! How do any of us know any of it is true ?

For my part, Jafar, I prefer a combination of commonsense and decency, to doubt the report. But for your part, Jafar, you have your willingness to support Jew-hating terrorists, along with being an apologist for a Jew-hating maniacal dwarf, to guide you in believing what YOU find it more convenient to accept.



Nope. I don't think it is.

Talking about maniacal dwarfs, Jafar ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel




Must be another of those, er'm, 'mistranslations', eh, Jafar ?



Such a 'lovely gentleman', eh, Jafar .. and so often 'mistranslated' !!!



... and 'mistranslated' AGAIN ...... !!!! .....



.... and so it continues ....

Ahmadinejad and Hamas. What's Ahmadinejad's thinking on Hamas ? See ...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/ahmadinejad-iran-will-support-hamas-until-collapse-of-israel-1.253714



No surprises there. They both want the demise of Israel. QED.

And YOU, Jafar, want to continue to indicate SUPPORT of Iran, and notably Hamas ... don't you, Jafar ? Your support of Hamas terrorists has been stated. Your disapproval of terrorists who act against the Iranian regime is evident. And you try to dismiss Ahmadinejad anti-Israel statements (the 'wipe off the map' one, certainly) as a MISTRANSLATION.

Feeling proud, Jafar ?



Sir Drummond. I'm beginning to feel as if jafar is the AL Jazzera version of our Jesse Jackson. Disenfranchising himself to show how it works in reality for those who have NO ability to think on their own.

[jafar00]

(Sigh) ... Jafar ... if you're going to reply to my posts, it really helps if you make an effort to READ what it is you're replying to !!

Yes, Seymour Hersh is indeed a Leftie And Jafar, who on this forum really doubts that Lefties are propagandists ?

But I said more than just that. I pointed out that Hersh is a muckraker, who's made a living out of exactly that 'style' of journalism. And more than that .. I supplied you with evidence, reported as coming from Hersh HIMSELF, that on occasions he can be .. well .. 'somewhat liberal' with accuracy.

So all of this, I suggest .. and it's an obvious conclusion that anybody engaging more than four brain cells can readily discern .. makes Hersh RATHER LESS THAN A TOTALLY RELIABLE A SOURCE OF 'INFORMATION'.

I could bring you more articles by Noam Chomsky or Edward S Herman, but they would be similarly dismissed as "Lefties" so there is no point.

I could also post from more right wing sources, however they really are loonies.




WHAT 'mistranslation' .. ??

Are you an Ahmadinejad propagandist-wannabe, Jafar ?

You say it yourself. This issue of 'US using terrorist groups aligned with Al Qaeda and the Taliban' is an assertion reported as coming from a source who's outed HIMSELF as unreliable !!!!!!! How do any of us know any of it is true ?

For my part, Jafar, I prefer a combination of commonsense and decency, to doubt the report. But for your part, Jafar, you have your willingness to support Jew-hating terrorists, along with being an apologist for a Jew-hating maniacal dwarf, to guide you in believing what YOU find it more convenient to accept.

Ok so if you won't believe me or a "lefty", how about confirmation from Israeli Deputy PM, Dan Meridor?


As the Guardian columnist Jonathan Steele explained in 2006 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/02/comment.usa), a more direct translation of Mr. Ahmadinejad’s remarks would be: “this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,” echoing a statement once made by the founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.
In an English translation (http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1510.htm) three days after the speech in 2005, the Middle East Media Research Institute, or Memri — which was founded by a former Israeli intelligence officer — rendered the sentence in a similar way: “Imam [Khomeini] said: ‘This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.’”
In an interview with The Lede on Tuesday, Hooman Majd, an Iranian-American writer whose father was an ambassador under the Shah, pointed out that Mr. Ahmadinejad had slightly misquoted Ayatollah Khomeini, using the Persian word for “page” instead of a similar-sounding word for “scene or stage.”
Israeli Minister Agrees Ahmadinejad Never Said Israel ‘Must Be Wiped Off the Map’ (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/israeli-minister-agrees-ahmadinejad-never-said-israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map/)

The Israeli regime will be forgotten in time is a more accurate interpretation.

[Drummond]

I could bring you more articles by Noam Chomsky or Edward S Herman, but they would be similarly dismissed as "Lefties" so there is no point.

I could also post from more right wing sources, however they really are loonies.

You're admitting bias, then, and a preference for using Left wing 'sources' ?

Now, why would you have such a preference, Jafar ?


Ok so if you won't believe me or a "lefty", how about confirmation from Israeli Deputy PM, Dan Meridor?


Israeli Minister Agrees Ahmadinejad Never Said Israel ‘Must Be Wiped Off the Map’ (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/israeli-minister-agrees-ahmadinejad-never-said-israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map/)

The Israeli regime will be forgotten in time is a more accurate interpretation.

From what I've seen, Meridor commented on Ahmadinejad's threat ... well, how many YEARS after it was issued ... SIX ? SEVEN ?

How come he was never moved to comment years earlier, when he knew how the world had interpreted the threat ??

So I have to wonder what else is going on .. such as whether Meridor has had political issues over the years. With Netanyahu, for example ...

As to your references to the Guardian, and 'Memri' .. well, the Guardian, as I'm sure you'll know from your stay in Britain, is a LEFT WING publication. As for 'Memri', they've been criticised for inaccurate translations in the past.

Oh, and you've overlooked the other pronouncements of anti-Israeli speeches, not least other wishes for Israel to cease to exist, that Ahmadinejad has made. I quoted a couple previously .. I suggest you re-read them.

You will find it a useful exercise. More useful, in fact, than trying to save Ahmadinejad's image ever could be.

[jafar00]

Oh, and you've overlooked the other pronouncements of anti-Israeli speeches, not least other wishes for Israel to cease to exist, that Ahmadinejad has made. I quoted a couple previously .. I suggest you re-read them.

I don't like Ahmedinejad however you must be fair. His subsequent speeches that contained any threat to Israel were in response to serious Israeli threats.

[Drummond]

I don't like Ahmedinejad however you must be fair. His subsequent speeches that contained any threat to Israel were in response to serious Israeli threats.

Oh, so, after having threatened to wipe Israel off the map, Israel's only 'legitimate' response was to meekly stay silent ???

Ahmadinejad, and his regime, STARTED all that. And, here's a thought you will really hate, Jafar ...

ISRAEL HAS EVERY RIGHT TO DEFEND HERSELF.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I don't like Ahmedinejad however you must be fair. His subsequent speeches that contained any threat to Israel were in response to serious Israeli threats.

Sure Jafar, somebody threatens to wipe out me and my entire family and when I make a threat back warning them of the consequences you fault(lay the blame) on me!!
Threatening nuke annihilation isn't serious?
How about showing me where Israel threatened replying with nukes in kind??-Tyr

[aboutime]

Sure Jafar, somebody threatens to wipe out me and my entire family and when I make a threat back warning them of the consequences you fault(lay the blame) on me!!
Threatening nuke annihilation isn't serious?
How about showing me where Israel threatened replying with nukes in kind??-Tyr




Tyr. This is just more proof that jafar is more like Ahmanutjob, and possibly related to him. There are no alternatives to jafar's hatred of Israel...per this guy...4502 whom jafar pretends NOT to like...while welcoming his hatred...fingers crossed.

[jafar00]

Oh, so, after having threatened to wipe Israel off the map, Israel's only 'legitimate' response was to meekly stay silent ???

Ahmadinejad, and his regime, STARTED all that. And, here's a thought you will really hate, Jafar ...

ISRAEL HAS EVERY RIGHT TO DEFEND HERSELF.

So Does Iran
Or any of the other countries threatened by Israel

[tailfins]

So Does Iran
Or any of the other countries threatened by Israel

Most information sources have an agenda. One must see things for themselves before trusting a source in general. Just what is Iran? The Iranian people? The rulers that likely are not governing with the consent of the governed? If a criminal government is a threat to US interests, it must be dealt with by whatever level of force necessary. If Israel is willing to do the dirty work in favor of US interests, the US should send them money.

[Drummond]

So Does Iran
Or any of the other countries threatened by Israel

Your dislike of Ahmadinejad didn't last long, did it, Jafar ?

Tell me why you're pro-terrorist when it comes to those terrorists who fire missiles at Israel ... and rather more 'anti' those terrorists operating in Iran !

But as for Iran's international situation .. your stance is simply offensive. I see it as akin to saying that Hitler's Germany had every right to defend itself from Allied forces who, upon discovering the genocidal intention behind the killing of millions of Jews, would've been 'wrong' to pose a threat to the Third Reich !!

I know you don't want to face this simple truth, but you really should: IRAN IS THE AGGRESSOR. AND IRAN HAS THREATENED GENOCIDE AGAINST ISRAEL, AND IS DEVELOPING THE TECHNOLOGY THAT COULD BRING THAT ABOUT.

[Drummond]

Most information sources have an agenda. One must see things for themselves before trusting a source in general. Just what is Iran? The Iranian people? The rulers that likely are not governing with the consent of the governed? If a criminal government is a threat to US interests, it must be dealt with by whatever level of force necessary. If Israel is willing to do the dirty work in favor of US interests, the US should send them money.

If Iran ever tried, physically tried, to make good on its holocaustal threat, this would automatically be against US interests. This is partly because Israel is your ally, and for you to fail to support Israel at a time of mortal danger would ensure, at minimum, that your other allies ceased to trust you.

That's at minimum. Standing by, not supportively acting, should Israel be attacked ... THAT would earn you worldwide condemnation, and be a black mark in America's history that she'd find it very hard to live down for GENERATIONS.

More generally, any substantial attack on Israel would considerably destabilise the Middle East, which would imperil the entire world.

I suggest you question Jafar on his support for Hamas, a TERRORIST organisation.

[aboutime]

So Does Iran
Or any of the other countries threatened by Israel


4506 jafar is trying to become a comedian too!
Hard to imagine a Laughing Suicide Bomber coming here to tell jokes.

[jafar00]

Your dislike of Ahmadinejad didn't last long, did it, Jafar ?

Tell me why you're pro-terrorist when it comes to those terrorists who fire missiles at Israel ... and rather more 'anti' those terrorists operating in Iran !

The terrorists operating in Iran are attacking people that haven't attacked them. Deliberately killing civilians. Hamas fire missiles in the general direction of Israel because they are constantly being attacked.

Perhaps if Hamas had as good intel as the Israelis and modern weapons, they might be better at targeting the artillery units firing at them.


But as for Iran's international situation .. your stance is simply offensive. I see it as akin to saying that Hitler's Germany had every right to defend itself from Allied forces who, upon discovering the genocidal intention behind the killing of millions of Jews, would've been 'wrong' to pose a threat to the Third Reich !!

Ah, Godwin's Law. The Nazis had attacked and invaded another country. Iran has not. In fact, when was the last time Iran attacked and invaded another country? A few thousand years ago? The same can't be said for the UK or USA can it?


I know you don't want to face this simple truth, but you really should: IRAN IS THE AGGRESSOR. AND IRAN HAS THREATENED GENOCIDE AGAINST ISRAEL, AND IS DEVELOPING THE TECHNOLOGY THAT COULD BRING THAT ABOUT.

Wrong. Please learn to comprehend without letting hysteria cloud your judgement. Iran has only threatened Israel with RETALIATION if attacked. Second, where is the proof that they have a Nuclear Weapons program?

[aboutime]

The terrorists operating in Iran are attacking people that haven't attacked them. Deliberately killing civilians. Hamas fire missiles in the general direction of Israel because they are constantly being attacked.

Perhaps if Hamas had as good intel as the Israelis and modern weapons, they might be better at targeting the artillery units firing at them.



Ah, Godwin's Law. The Nazis had attacked and invaded another country. Iran has not. In fact, when was the last time Iran attacked and invaded another country? A few thousand years ago? The same can't be said for the UK or USA can it?



Wrong. Please learn to comprehend without letting hysteria cloud your judgement. Iran has only threatened Israel with RETALIATION if attacked. Second, where is the proof that they have a Nuclear Weapons program?



jafar. You really should stop playing SWITCH with your thumbs. The reaction to the mixing of Anal with Mouth is threatening your ability to create sane thought. You also Intentionally Didn't mention Ahmadinejad's threat to WIPE Israel off the map. But then. Why would you ever say anything negative about one of your most prized HERO'S?

[Marcus Aurelius]

If Iran ever tried, physically tried, to make good on its holocaustal threat, this would automatically be against US interests. This is partly because Israel is your ally, and for you to fail to support Israel at a time of mortal danger would ensure, at minimum, that your other allies ceased to trust you.

That's at minimum. Standing by, not supportively acting, should Israel be attacked ... THAT would earn you worldwide condemnation, and be a black mark in America's history that she'd find it very hard to live down for GENERATIONS.

More generally, any substantial attack on Israel would considerably destabilise the Middle East, which would imperil the entire world.

I suggest you question Jafar on his support for Hamas, a TERRORIST organisation.

If they did, and managed to succeed, Jahil would simply deny Israel ever existed. He's say it was made up by the US, and cite a bogus Red Cross report to prove his claim. Then, when the Red Cross recanted its report, Jahil would disappear from any threads on the subject.

[Drummond]

If they did, and managed to succeed, Jahil would simply deny Israel ever existed. He's say it was made up by the US, and cite a bogus Red Cross report to prove his claim. Then, when the Red Cross recanted its report, Jahil would disappear from any threads on the subject.:clap::clap::laugh::laugh::laugh2::lol:

[Drummond]

The terrorists operating in Iran are attacking people that haven't attacked them. Deliberately killing civilians. Hamas fire missiles in the general direction of Israel because they are constantly being attacked.

Whatever happened to the principle of 'some terrorists are other peoples' freedom fighters, which you only recently posted ?

Isn't it a part of what terrorists do, to deliberately kill civilians ?

Hamas, Jafar, fire missiles at Israeli CITIES. Now, if Hamas had the slightest concern for killing innocents, why do they fire them, knowing what the outcome may be ?

And all of that hasn't prevented you supporting Hamas, now, has it ? SO ... why the objection to what the other terrorist groups are getting up to, in Iran ?


Perhaps if Hamas had as good intel as the Israelis and modern weapons, they might be better at targeting the artillery units firing at them.

Hamas have been firing their missiles all over Israel, not caring who they hit. To them, whether they kill military personnel, or innocent civilians .. it's all the same to them. They do NOT seek to just hit military targets !! Cite your proof that this is all Hamas are aiming at.


Ah, Godwin's Law. The Nazis had attacked and invaded another country. Iran has not. In fact, when was the last time Iran attacked and invaded another country? A few thousand years ago? The same can't be said for the UK or USA can it?

Maybe Iran is making up for that, by issuing GENOCIDAL THREATS ? Tell me, when did the UK or US ever threaten annihilation on such a scale ?


Wrong. Please learn to comprehend without letting hysteria cloud your judgement. Iran has only threatened Israel with RETALIATION if attacked. Second, where is the proof that they have a Nuclear Weapons program?

http://news.yahoo.com/iran-committed-full-annihilation-israel-says-top-iranian-033409439.html


Iran is dedicated to annihilating Israel, the Islamic regime’s military chief of staff declared Sunday.

“The Iranian nation is standing for its cause and that is the full annihilation of Israel,” Maj. Gen. Hassan Firouzabadi said in a speech to a defense gathering Sunday in Tehran.

His remarks came on the day International Atomic Energy Agency director Yukiya Amano flew to Tehran to negotiate for inspections of Iran’s nuclear program. They were reported by the Fars News Agency, the media outlet of the Revolutionary Guards Corps.

While many within the Islamic regime, including President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have often stated that Israel should be annihilated, until Sunday no one in the nation’s leadership has announced Iran’s determined intention to carry it out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20368030


Iran is ready to double the output at its underground uranium enrichment facility, the UN nuclear watchdog says.

A leaked report by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said there were 2,784 centrifuges at Fordo, and that Iran could soon double the number operating from 700 to 1,400.

The development is likely to fuel Western suspicions that Iran is seeking to develop nuclear weapons.

The government in Tehran insists the nuclear programme is entirely peaceful.

Talks this year about the uranium enrichment programme between Iran and the so-called P5+1 - the US, UK, France, China, Russia and Germany - have made little progress.

Iran's progress at Fordo was disclosed in a leaked report based on the findings of the IAEA's inspectors, who visit the facility regularly.

While the uranium enrichment plant is not yet fully operational - with only about 700 of the 3,000 centrifuges the facility is designed in use - experts say it could be within months.

The IAEA report said four new cascades of 174 centrifuges each "having been subjected to vacuum testing, were ready for feeding" with uranium hexafluoride (UF6) gas.

Once the new cascades were in operation, monthly production of 20%-enriched (medium-enriched) uranium would be about 25kg (55lb) per month, compared with 15kg at present, one official said.

The facility at Fordo, which is buried deep under a mountain inside a military base near the holy city of Qom, is designed to contain 16 cascades producing medium-enriched uranium, which experts say could be enriched to about 90%, or weapons-grade, in a relatively short time.

The IAEA also revealed in its report that Iran had produced about 233kg (512lb) of higher-grade enriched uranium since 2010, an increase of 43kg since August.

Earlier this year, the Atomic Energy Organisation of Iran (AEOI) used 96kg of its supply of 20%-enriched uranium for conversion into fuel for its medical research reactor in Tehran. Experts say it would be difficult to turn the fuel into weapons-grade uranium.

Nuclear fuel had also been removed from the core of the nuclear reactor at Bushehr without a reason being given by Iran, the IAEA added.

The report also said that "extensive activities" at the Parchin military site had seriously undermined an investigation into indications that experiments related to nuclear weapons might have been carried out there. Iran is suspected of attempting to removing evidence.

[aboutime]

If they did, and managed to succeed, Jahil would simply deny Israel ever existed. He's say it was made up by the US, and cite a bogus Red Cross report to prove his claim. Then, when the Red Cross recanted its report, Jahil would disappear from any threads on the subject.



Marcus. WE MUST ALL REMEMBER. Jafar/Jahil might be an Insurgent, on Assignment in Australia, pretending to melt into the population to fulfill his dreams of Martyrdom for the Muslim Brotherhood.

Ask jahil if he puts his fingers in his ears when SEARCHING FOR LANDMINES????

[Marcus Aurelius]

Thread title should read 'Jahil is a Fraud and a Liar'