Stolen Valor, should not be ignored!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.stripes.com/news/veterans/stolen-valor



Stolen Valor
Supreme Court strikes down Stolen Valor Act (http://www.stripes.com/news/supreme-court-strikes-down-stolen-valor-act-1.181587)

The Supreme Court on Thursday tossed out a 2006 law making it a federal misdemeanor to lie about receiving a military service medal, but left the door open for Congress to try again with a more finely tuned law.
16:54 June 28, 2012
Breaking down the Stolen Valor Act ruling (http://www.stripes.com/breaking-down-the-stolen-valor-act-ruling-1.181588)

Stories



Kentucky man to be sentenced for selling bogus military documents (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/kentucky-man-to-be-sentenced-for-selling-bogus-military-documents-1.188222)

Clinton Douglas Salyer is scheduled to be sentenced in federal court next week for producing phony military certificates and selling them online. Salyer was indicted in April on a charge of affixing fraudulent seals to military certificates. He pleaded guilty to the charge the following month.
16:48 September 5, 2012
Former PTSD Foundation counselor charged with altering military discharge papers (http://www.stripes.com/news/former-ptsd-foundation-counselor-charged-with-altering-military-discharge-papers-1.181704)

A federal grand jury has indicted Paul A. Schroeder, 40, of The Woodlands, Texas, The former director of counseling at a nonprofit for veterans in Houston,for unlawfully possessing and exhibiting a certificate of discharge from the military, “knowing the same to be forged, counterfeited, or falsely altered.”
16:25 June 29, 2012
http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.179669.1338951501!/image/1157355252.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_100/1157355252.jpg (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/military-disputes-tv-contestant-s-claim-of-combat-injuries-1.179668)Military disputes TV contestant's claim of combat injuries (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/military-disputes-tv-contestant-s-claim-of-combat-injuries-1.179668)

A contestant on "America's Got Talent" gained sympathy from the judges and applause from the audience when he described suffering a TBI in Afghanistan, but the military says it has no record of him being injured.
14:10 June 6, 2012
Law that makes it a crime to lie about military honors could be overturned (http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/04/21/3902403/law-that-makes-it-a-crime-to-lie.html)
Supreme Court hears 'stolen valor' case of false military heroism (http://www.stripes.com/news/supreme-court-hears-stolen-valor-case-of-false-military-heroism-1.169532)
Houston veterans mentor says he lied about his military record (http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Veterans-mentor-says-he-lied-about-his-military-3161064.php)
Ex-Virginia Beach man accused of posing as Navy officer (http://hamptonroads.com/2012/02/exva-beach-man-accused-posing-navy-officer)
Veteran’s claims of awards, service do not withstand scrutiny (http://www.stripes.com/news/veteran-s-claims-of-awards-service-do-not-withstand-scrutiny-1.164895)
Supreme Court to decide if Constitution allows lying about military heroism (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/supreme-court-to-decide-if-constitution-allows-lying-about-military-heroism-1.158052)
'Stolen Valor': a legal fight for the right to tell lies (http://www.stripes.com/news/stolen-valor-a-legal-fight-for-the-right-to-tell-lies-1.144139)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If those that served honorably take no interest in exposing these liars why should anybody else? We see that government has now reversed a law to now make it easier for the liars to continue, thus cheapening the service of those that served honorably. For such people convince others of their deeds then they having no honor lead others to believe heroes act the way they do!

One of my very good friends was an honorable Marine combat veteran that served in Vietnam. I remember vividly what outrage he expressed when seeing a liar attempt to steal that which others HAVE DIED OR BEEN WOUNDED ACTUALLY DOING! So much so that rather than ignore it ,he confronted the pretender and upon exposing the man to truly be the liar that he was, my friend would then proceed to kick his ass! And that ladies and gentlemen is how a Marine treats such lowlife , lying posers! Not by standing back ignoring , by jaw dropping awe or ignorant admiration but by forcing the truth to see light of day and then taking real action!

My other great friend that was a Korean War veteran I never got to see take action against such liars but he told me of two incidents where he too got fed up listening to a pretender and just walked over beat hell out of them . Not saying a word to anybody, just doing the deed and leaving. He was a fairly quiet man and such was his style. Quiet but by no means timid.

Sadly both men are passed on now but I was indeed lucky to have them as mentors in my young life. I respect the hell out of them because they were solid men of principles, quick to defend those fallen heroes's honor by not allowing such pretenders to steal that which should never be allowed to be stolen!!
This is one place where zero tolerance really should thrive IMHO.. --Tyr

[fj1200]

^Didn't you post this news last year and a rousing discussion ensued?

[ConHog]

^Didn't you post this news last year and a rousing discussion ensued?

do you suggest a possible ulterior motive for posting a duplicate thread may exist?

[CSM]

At the heart of it, there are already laws on the books for dealing with folks who try to make money or gain some advantage for misrepresenting themselves as veterans/heroes. Altering government documents, including service records, is already illegal. As a veteran, it does annoy the crap out of me when some clown represents himself as some kind of veteran/hero or victim when they are not and never served at all. That being said, I believe the truth will out sooner or later. Those who have served and exagerate their service ... well, I don't like it but tend to cut them a bit of slack. It is my experience that those who have served in combat generally do not talk about it at all (some exception when they are with others who have had similar experience). If there is some question, than as has been said in another post ... trust but verify. I will also point out that, as you desscribe in the post above, those who have been there and done that can tell who hasor has not been there too.

[fj1200]

do you suggest a possible ulterior motive for posting a duplicate thread may exist?

I didn't. ;)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

^Didn't you post this news last year and a rousing discussion ensued?

No, different link , new perspective and do you care to address the topic or just bitch about it being posted?
That I chose not to resurrect the old thread is -
1. My business not yours.
2. Didn't want a repeat of the same and thought a fresh perspective to be a better idea.

If do not like it , I suggest ignoring the thread as nobody is making you read or post in it.-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

do you suggest a possible ulterior motive for posting a duplicate thread may exist?

Thread topic is--Stolen Valor, now I kindly suggest that you stop attempting to derail this thread.
Nobody's name has been brought up in this thread.
Stop with the derailing, you have done a lot of that lately. Don't like the thread , I suggest that you ignore it .
Your name wasn't mentioned here.. -Tyr

[ConHog]

Thread topic is--Stolen Valor, now I kindly suggest that you stop attempting to derail this thread.
Nobody's name has been brought up in this thread.
Stop with the derailing, you have done a lot of that lately. Don't like the thread , I suggest that you ignore it .
Your name wasn't mentioned here.. -Tyr

I did not claim that my name was mentioned. I asked FJ a question in follow up to his previous post.

I also did not derail the thread, it was a single post . Don't like it, skip over my post, no one makes you read it. Isn't that the advice you just gave FJ?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

At the heart of it, there are already laws on the books for dealing with folks who try to make money or gain some advantage for misrepresenting themselves as veterans/heroes. Altering government documents, including service records, is already illegal. As a veteran, it does annoy the crap out of me when some clown represents himself as some kind of veteran/hero or victim when they are not and never served at all. That being said, I believe the truth will out sooner or later. Those who have served and exagerate their service ... well, I don't like it but tend to cut them a bit of slack. It is my experience that those who have served in combat generally do not talk about it at all (some exception when they are with others who have had similar experience). If there is some question, than as has been said in another post ... trust but verify. I will also point out that, as you desscribe in the post above, those who have been there and done that can tell who hasor has not been there too.

I agree. Those that have can always tell those that haven't. My friends were of the old school and the kind of men that took action. They believed they were honor bound to not ignore the lies told by those that never served and attempted to steal from those that had. I can tell you this I would have not liked having to fight either one of those guys and I am by no means a puny person myself in size or in ability.. -Tyr

[fj1200]

No, different link , new perspective and do you care to address the topic or just bitch about it being posted?
That I chose not to resurrect the old thread is -
1. My business not yours.
2. Didn't want a repeat of the same and thought a fresh perspective to be a better idea.

If do not like it , I suggest ignoring the thread as nobody is making you read or post in it.-Tyr

Yes, a new perspective I'm sure. :rolleyes: Pardon my questioning unnecessary redundancy.


If those that served honorably take no interest in exposing these liars why should anybody else? We see that government has now reversed a law to now make it easier for the liars to continue, thus cheapening the service of those that served honorably. For such people convince others of their deeds then they having no honor lead others to believe heroes act the way they do!

Who says they take no interest?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Yes, a new perspective I'm sure. :rolleyes: Pardon my questioning unnecessary redundancy.



Who says they take no interest?

Quite apparent to me that many take no interest when they fail to act when seeing it played out in front of them. My link had multiple examples of those exposed but there are countless examples where the pretender is just allowed to continue on and on , also the government reversed a law that would punish such people!-Tyr

[ConHog]

Quite apparent to me that many take no interest when they fail to act when seeing it played out in front of them. My link had multiple examples of those exposed but there are countless examples where the pretender is just allowed to continue on and on , also the government reversed a law that would punish such people!-Tyr

The government didn't reverse it, it was declared unconstitutional and stricken from the books.

A conservative should applaud the court doing so. That has no bearing on whether lying is okay or not, but a conservative should in fact applaud the court striking down a violation of the first amendment.

[fj1200]

Quite apparent to me that many take no interest when they fail to act when seeing it played out in front of them. My link had multiple examples of those exposed but there are countless examples where the pretender is just allowed to continue on and on , also the government reversed a law that would punish such people!-Tyr

So you use as example pretenders being "allowed" instances where they are charged, convicted, and publicly called out? And SCOTUS declaring unconstitutional is not the government reversing; there's quite a difference.

[ConHog]

So you use as example pretenders being "allowed" instances where they are charged, convicted, and publicly called out? And SCOTUS declaring unconstitutional is not the government reversing; there's quite a difference.

a liberal court slapping down a government over reach, who would have thunk it?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The government didn't reverse it, it was declared unconstitutional and stricken from the books.

A conservative should applaud the court doing so. That has no bearing on whether lying is okay or not, but a conservative should in fact applaud the court striking down a violation of the first amendment.

Last time I checked the courts were ALL part of the government. Or didn't you ever learn even that in school.-:laugh:

[ConHog]

Last time I checked the courts were ALL part of the government. Or didn't you ever learn even that in school.-:laugh:

Reversal is not the same as being stricken unconstitutional. IT was removed , not reversed.

I see though that you are unwilling to actually defend your thought, preferring instead to attack the poster who points out your error.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/popup?id=3631779


Operation Stolen Valor
The VA says it's in the midst of a crackdown on phony military heroes.
SEE THE LINK LISTED ABOVE....

[ConHog]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/popup?id=3631779


Operation Stolen Valor


The VA says it's in the midst of a crackdown on phony military heroes.


SEE THE LINK LISTED ABOVE....

No actually what your link says is that the VA is in the midst of cracking down on people who fraudulently try to use their services.

Good for them, and that is not a first amendment violation. It was already illegal to try to fraudulently obtain government services of any kind. All agencies should crack down.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Today, 11:54 AM<input type="checkbox" class="postimod" id="post_imod_checkbox_609992" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; position: absolute; right: 10px; top: 5px;">
ConHog (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?2163-ConHog)
I'm in YOUR head

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Doing exactly as Jim suggested, Jim is a very wise man!!!!!
Very wise suggestion Jim....-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So you use as example pretenders being "allowed" instances where they are charged, convicted, and publicly called out? And SCOTUS declaring unconstitutional is not the government reversing; there's quite a difference.

Yes, I presented cases where the pretenders were caught and action was taken. Something wrong with my linked source? -Tyr

[fj1200]

Yes, I presented cases where the pretenders were caught and action was taken. Something wrong with my linked source? -Tyr

No, just your logic and lack of support for the rest of your comments. Define "countless" and point out how those who served "take no interest."

[ConHog]

No, just your logic and lack of support for the rest of your comments. Define "countless" and point out how those who served "take no interest."

He actually did NOT present a link to any case where a person what caught and or punished for lying about service. What he DID present is a link to a case where a man was caught and punished for fraudulently trying to obtain VA services.

[fj1200]

^There were at least three links in the OP.

[ConHog]

^There were at least three links in the OP.

I was speaking of his second post, the one where he linked to the article about the VA. you know the one that happened after Stolen Valor was correctly, and conservatively, ruled unconstitutional.

[fj1200]

^OK.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://themongoosetrick.blogspot.com/2010/08/yeah-stolen-valor-but-whos-stealing.html

I detest, too, the “perfumed prince” who shows up on television before a national audience – to testify before congress, for instance – wearing a chestful of infantile merit badges, sometimes not one of which amounts to a Boy Scout Merit Badge in value that has to do with what it means. Often all but one or two of these “ribbons” says merely that the wearer was someplace. The four stars on this wannabe Leonidas were all too often earned in a college classroom or while training to fight - not fight.

There are four medals (and their ribbons) which connote valor: the Bronze Star with “V for Valor,” the Silver Star, the Distinguished Service Cross, and the Medal of Honor. Services other than the U.S. Army have medals equivalent to the DSC, medals which include the Navy Cross. I sincerely respect those medals and ribbons, but as one who doesn’t festoon his car with bumpers stickers or wear “message” tee-shirts, I haven’t much time for men who wear their honor on their sleeve – or chest. When it is a woman who shows up wearing a uniform sporting a "stack" of ribbons, I want to puke.

But this is about “Stolen Valor,” and The Stolen Valor Act of 2006 (18 US Code Section 704). As someone who has made a lifelong study of the science of propaganda – which is a form of lying – I see what is going on here. So – unless we are even stupider as a society and nation than I have reason to believe - does the Marine Colonel who this morning on FoxNews pontificated indignantly about a court having ruled the Stolen Valor Act of 2006 unconstitutional.

Trust me, this isn’t about "stolen valor." The government of the United States is not only arguably the biggest liar in human history, it is the biggest thief ever in history of the honor and credit – “valor." This unctuously phony Stolen Valor Act is about propaganda enhancement, a means of silencing “enemies of state” – anyone who disagrees with our colossally criminal, corporately owned and administered, government.

Who controls the record upon which everything concerning this kind of “valor” depends?

[fj1200]

^What was the point of that rant?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

^What was the point of that rant?

If you can not be bothered to click the link provided to read (and possibly find out), then I see no purpose to answering that question myself. Just remain in the darkness....-Tyr

[fj1200]

If you can not be bothered to click the link provided to read (and possibly find out), then I see no purpose to answering that question myself. Just remain in the darkness....-Tyr

I clicked it and found it to be a borderline incoherent rant about government for the sake of being a rant... Oh, now I see. ;)

[ConHog]

I clicked it and found it to be a borderline incoherent rant about government for the sake of being a rant... Oh, now I see. ;)

That's called being a "conservative" you dummy :D

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Now that our blessed government has ruled lying like a rug to be a-ok. We will see the usual roaches scurry back out into the limelight! A shame that such people get to steal from the sacrifices of others, from men and women that served honorably and many that gave their lives in heroic deeds. I pity people that think it no biog deal for by doing so they show zero appreciation of the sacrifices that have protected them their entire lives and their families as well! Simply a crying shame. I know I will never ignore such liars!!-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://scotty-stolenvaloroffendersexposed.blogspot.com/


<tbody>
PRAA = AIRCREW SURVIVAL EQUIPMENTMAN AIRMAN APPRENTICE

</tbody>


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Where do you even start here ??

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[logroller]

Plurality--
“Sworn testimony is quite distinct from lies not spoken under oath and simply intended to puff up oneself.”
(Clearly.)
“The remedy for speech that is false is speech that is true. This is the ordinary course in a free society.”
(We're either on an extraordinary course or are no longer a free society...likely a blend of both.)
“… the Act’s breadth of coverage could be diminished or eliminated by a more finely tailored statute, for example, a statute that requires a showing that the false statement caused specific harm or is focused on lies more likely to be harmful or on contexts where such lies are likely to cause harm.”
(how broad is the wording of law being challenged? )


“The statute seeks to control and suppress all false statements on this one subject in almost limitless times and settings. And it does so entirely without regard to whether the lie was made for the purpose of material gain.”
(This seems a lot like the requirements for slander and libel; reasonable limits on speech.)



Dissent--


“Because a sufficiently comprehensive database [of military awards] is not practicable, lies about military awards cannot be remedied by what the plurality calls ‘counterspeech.’”
( Should free speech be limited by that which is verifiable? )


“But much damage is caused, both to real award recipients and to the system of military honors, by false statements that are not linked to any financial or other tangible reward.”
(Not being a vet myself, I'm curious to know if veterans here feel if their own honorable service awards are damaged by posers? )

[ConHog]

Plurality--
“Sworn testimony is quite distinct from lies not spoken under oath and simply intended to puff up oneself.”
(Clearly.)
“The remedy for speech that is false is speech that is true. This is the ordinary course in a free society.”
(We're either on an extraordinary course or are no longer a free society...likely a blend of both.)
“… the Act’s breadth of coverage could be diminished or eliminated by a more finely tailored statute, for example, a statute that requires a showing that the false statement caused specific harm or is focused on lies more likely to be harmful or on contexts where such lies are likely to cause harm.”
(how broad is the wording of law being challenged? )


“The statute seeks to control and suppress all false statements on this one subject in almost limitless times and settings. And it does so entirely without regard to whether the lie was made for the purpose of material gain.”
(This seems a lot like the requirements for slander and libel; reasonable limits on speech.)



Dissent--


“Because a sufficiently comprehensive database [of military awards] is not practicable, lies about military awards cannot be remedied by what the plurality calls ‘counterspeech.’”
( Should free speech be limited by that which is verifiable? )


“But much damage is caused, both to real award recipients and to the system of military honors, by false statements that are not linked to any financial or other tangible reward.”
(Not being a vet myself, I'm curious to know if veterans here feel if their own honorable service awards are damaged by posers? )

Correct on your point about the law, the unconstitutional law did in fact make it illegal to say anything . Hell a little kid could have been arrested for saying he was a soldier during Halloween.

to your second question, couldn't care less what others claim, has no bearing on me or anything I did.

[fj1200]

Now that our blessed government has ruled lying like a rug to be a-ok.

So you're not OK with the First Amendment? Or we should let bad law stand just because you agree with it? You could start a thread about how you would repeal the First and replace it with one that meets with your approval, I dare say you might could get quite a bit of agreement on that.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So you're not OK with the First Amendment? Or we should let bad law stand just because you agree with it? You could start a thread about how you would repeal the First and replace it with one that meets with your approval, I dare say you might could get quite a bit of agreement on that.

The law just struck down was in effect for years ,only people affected by it were the lying b@stards that tried to steal glory from honorable men and women's sacrifices. No innocent people suffered.
Are you upset those lying b@stards could not so freely ply their trade? Do tell... :poke:--Tyr

[ConHog]

So you're not OK with the First Amendment? Or we should let bad law stand just because you agree with it? You could start a thread about how you would repeal the First and replace it with one that meets with your approval, I dare say you might could get quite a bit of agreement on that.

Tyr is a big believer in only defending the rights that HE agrees with. Fuck everyone else.

[fj1200]

The law just struck down was in effect for years ,only people affected by it were the lying b@stards that tried to steal glory from honorable men and women's sacrifices. No innocent people suffered.
Are you upset those lying b@stards could not so freely ply their trade? Do tell... :poke:--Tyr

5 and a half years from being signed to struck down. Not exactly "years" in Constitutional terms but yes the First does protect the lying bastards as well as the rest of us. I'd be upset if the Constitution were not upheld for your expedience.


Tyr is a big believer in only defending the rights that HE agrees with. Fuck everyone else.

That's apparently the only explanation here.

[ConHog]

5 and a half years from being signed to struck down. Not exactly "years" in Constitutional terms but yes the First does protect the lying bastards as well as the rest of us. I'd be upset if the Constitution were not upheld for your expedience.



That's apparently the only explanation here.

To be fair to Tyr, he's not alone. Look at two issues like gun ownership and gay marriage. Each has defenders who are simultaneously trying to take the other away from someone else.

People who don't understand that the rights which we should defend most strongly are those with which we disagree the most are stupid.

[fj1200]

... he's not alone.

No doubt, it takes courage and honor to stand up for the rights of even those you disagree with.

[ConHog]

No doubt, it takes courage and honor to stand up for the rights of even those you disagree with.

But it's easier to yell "shut up, dems bad you leave if you don't agree with me"

then to actually think and realize the truth of what we're saying here.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Recent research shows that those guilty of having Stolen Valor come out to defend their actions on blogs, forums , etc. They often do this by decrying the attack on the 1st Amendment!
While what they really mean is it's nobody's damn business how much the lying b@stards lie!!
I myself find such trash talk a poor substitute for defending honor and integrity.
And those vomiting it out to be shills of the lowest order IMHO.-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

No doubt, it takes courage and honor to stand up for the rights of even those you disagree with.

As it does for defending those unable to do so for themselves because in their sacrifice they died defending this great nation!
Defending somebody's right to be a damn lying b@stard seems to thrill you and your friend.
Usually defending honor and integrity is -Not about defending the right to lie and steal! That you think it is speaks volumes. -Tyr

[ConHog]

Recent research shows that those guilty of having Stolen Valor come out to defend their actions on blogs, forums , etc. They often do this by decrying the attack on the 1st Amendment!
While what they really mean is it's nobody's damn business how much the lying b@stards lie!!
I myself find such trash talk a poor substitute for defending honor and integrity.
And those vomiting it out to be shills of the lowest order IMHO.-Tyr

Have you any proof of this "recent research?"

I'm guessing not.

Making studies up without providing proof of such says a lot about a person's honor IMHO

[gabosaurus]

If it was a crime to lie, cheat and steal, this country wouldn't have any Congressional representatives. They would all be in jail.

As long as it is legal to buy and sell military ensignia, uniforms and medals, people are going to claim what they represent. Take care of the former before you protest about the latter.

[logroller]

As it does for defending those unable to do so for themselves because in their sacrifice they died defending this great nation!
Defending somebody's right to be a damn lying b@stard seems to thrill you and your friend.
Usually defending honor and integrity is -Not about defending the right to lie and steal! That you think it is speaks volumes. -Tyr
It's pretty easy to debunk someone saying they were KIA. If you and I split a nickel for every person that lied about their honor and integrity, we'd be rich men. But the reality is its not those deserving of such honor that are disenfranchised; its those that bestow such honor being mislead. I mean, the guys and gals that actually earned that aren't shorted. Most I talk to dont really care; they know the real deal from the farce. That's the thing about honor and integrity-- if you have it, no one can take it-- not even someone faking it.

[fj1200]

Recent research shows that those guilty of having Stolen Valor come out to defend their actions on blogs, forums , etc. They often do this by decrying the attack on the 1st Amendment!
While what they really mean is it's nobody's damn business how much the lying b@stards lie!!
I myself find such trash talk a poor substitute for defending honor and integrity.
And those vomiting it out to be shills of the lowest order IMHO.-Tyr

Interesting; A losing argument deflected by attacking an opponent. Honor? Perhaps Congress will get around to passing a better law, if possible, so the lying bastards will no longer get away with their shameful behavior... Oh wait, they don't all get away with it. Your own OP evidences that.


As it does for defending those unable to do so for themselves because in their sacrifice they died defending this great nation!
Defending somebody's right to be a damn lying b@stard seems to thrill you and your friend.
Usually defending honor and integrity is -Not about defending the right to lie and steal! That you think it is speaks volumes. -Tyr

You should try and grasp the difference between the public rightfully shaming despicable acts, and prosecuting where an option, and an overreach of government power that infringes on the BoR. For someone who whines and moans about BO and his power grabs you sure like to vest power in government when it suits your point of view. Whether it's this or something like torture, you're all about government power when wielded in your favor.

[ConHog]

Interesting; A losing argument deflected by attacking an opponent. Honor? Perhaps Congress will get around to passing a better law, if possible, so the lying bastards will no longer get away with their shameful behavior... Oh wait, they don't all get away with it. Your own OP evidences that.



You should try and grasp the difference between the public rightfully shaming despicable acts, and prosecuting where an option, and an overreach of government power that infringes on the BoR. For someone who whines and moans about BO and his power grabs you sure like to vest power in government when it suits your point of view. Whether it's this or something like torture, you're all about government power when wielded in your favor.

don't forget gay marriage and abortion.

Dude is all about HIS rights, fuck everyone else.

[fj1200]

don't forget gay marriage and abortion.

Dude is all about HIS rights, fuck everyone else.

Social Security, Medicare...

[ConHog]

Social Security, Medicare...

real conservative that eh?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If it was a crime to lie, cheat and steal, this country wouldn't have any Congressional representatives. They would all be in jail.

As long as it is legal to buy and sell military ensignia, uniforms and medals, people are going to claim what they represent. Take care of the former before you protest about the latter.

It is a crime to steal, to lie to when under oath and cheat too when defrauding an innocent person etc.

Nice to see "the little herd" all here ranting and protecting lying b@stards so valiantly .
Log is the only one that made any sense at all.
Even then he missed the point of the thread..
As all have done.. Law or no law we should should condemn and seek to protect the sanctity of the sacrifices of those that still defend and once defended us! We do not do that by cheering a law being struck down that has sought to stop the travesty being visited upon those that have served honorably and sacrificed so much!
I see who did not defend the law being struck down and applaud their wisdom .
The others are staking a claim to a rotten corpse IMHO.
Pitiful but hey tis' exactly what I expected.--Tyr

[ConHog]

It is a crime to steal, to lie to when under oath and cheat too when defrauding an innocent person etc.

Nice to see "the little herd" all here ranting and protecting lying b@stards so valiantly .
Log is the only one that made any sense at all.
Even then he missed the point of the thread..
As all have done.. Law or no law we should should condemn and seek to protect the sanctity of the sacrifices of those that still defend and once defended us! We do not do that by cheering a law being struck down that has sought to stop the travesty being visited upon those that have served honorably and sacrificed so much!
I see who did not defend the law being struck down and applaud their wisdom .
The others are staking a claim to a rotten corpse IMHO.
Pitiful but hey tis' exactly what I expected.--Tyr

^ this guy is truly dumb.

He doesn't even understand the difference between defending the behavior and defending the right to display the behavior.

That's why he and other idiots fail when we're discussing gay marriage or abortion. You defend someone's right to it and what's he scream ? "You agree with gay marriage!!!!!!!!!" no idiot, I agree that others have the right to do so without my approval.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Interesting; A losing argument deflected by attacking an opponent. Honor? Perhaps Congress will get around to passing a better law, if possible, so the lying bastards will no longer get away with their shameful behavior... Oh wait, they don't all get away with it. Your own OP evidences that.



You should try and grasp the difference between the public rightfully shaming despicable acts, and prosecuting where an option, and an overreach of government power that infringes on the BoR. For someone who whines and moans about BO and his power grabs you sure like to vest power in government when it suits your point of view. Whether it's this or something like torture, you're all about government power when wielded in your favor.

You should try to grasp that the principle is more important than the law standing or not...
That you fail to get it is not a surprise to me..-:laugh:--Tyr

[fj1200]

You should try to grasp that the principle is more important than the law standing or not...
That you fail to get it is not a surprise to me..-:laugh:--Tyr

This. \/


He doesn't even understand the difference between defending the behavior and defending the right to display the behavior.

Excellent, spot on, would read again. Just like I have heard many who served say something to the effect of, "I may not agree with what you say but I'll fight to the death your ability to say it."

tyr, if you spent more time analyzing your logic and less time attacking those who disagree with you, you might see the duplicity of your position. If you had actually taken the time to read my posts you would see that I agreed with your characterization of those who lie about serving their country.

[ConHog]

This. \/



Excellent, spot on, would read again. Just like I have heard many who served say something to the effect of, "I may not agree with what you say but I'll fight to the death your ability to say it."

tyr, if you spent more time analyzing your logic and less time attacking those who disagree with you, you might see the duplicity of your position. If you had actually taken the time to read my posts you would see that I agreed with your characterization of those who lie about serving their country.

FJ , he doesn't care . I'm actually surprised he hasn't just placed you on ignore and pretended like you're an idiot yet.

He ONLY cares about his own preconceived notions and dismisses anyone and anything that disagrees with those.

And again, that isn't just Tyr, it's Americans in general, and is a big part of why our nation is falling apart. Look at the way Obama dismisses anyone who has differing opinions "the elections over , and I won"

Sad indictment on America IMHO.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

This. \/



Excellent, spot on, would read again. Just like I have heard many who served say something to the effect of, "I may not agree with what you say but I'll fight to the death your ability to say it."

tyr, if you spent more time analyzing your logic and less time attacking those who disagree with you, you might see the duplicity of your position. If you had actually taken the time to read my posts you would see that I agreed with your characterization of those who lie about serving their country.

No thanks, the duplicity is you saying "spot on " to the gross misrepresentation of my views as I presented here in numerous posts. Along with you agreeing with so many of his personal attacks on me.
Spare me the self-righteous blather.. I do not buy misrepresented goods .. -Tyr

[ConHog]

No thanks, the duplicity is you saying "spot on " to the gross misrepresentation of my views as I presented here in numerous posts. Along with you agreeing with so many of his personal attacks on me.
Spare me the self-righteous blather.. I do not buy misrepresented goods .. -Tyr

Translation:

"I am not interested in any view which does not agree with my own, and also people who I disagree with should be held to a higher standard than myself"

Tyr must be a Congressman.

[fj1200]

No thanks, the duplicity is you saying "spot on " to the gross misrepresentation of my views as I presented here in numerous posts. Along with you agreeing with so many of his personal attacks on me.
Spare me the self-righteous blather.. I do not buy misrepresented goods .. -Tyr

That's a blatant pot, kettle argument right there. As far as him misrepresenting? He didn't.

[ConHog]

That's a blatant pot, kettle argument right there. As far as him misrepresenting? He didn't.

correct I didn't . I believe Tyr is sincere in his disdain for people who "steal valor"

I also think he is absolutely only concerned with rights when those rights are exercised by people HE agrees with.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's a blatant pot, kettle argument right there. As far as him misrepresenting? He didn't.

:laugh: :laugh2: :laugh:, ok Tonto....--Tyr

[ConHog]

:laugh: :laugh2: :laugh:, ok Tonto....--Tyr

^ either completely oblivious or well I prefer to believe he's oblivious.

[fj1200]

:laugh: :laugh2: :laugh:, ok Tonto....--Tyr

I see you take the easy way out instead of having the wherewithal to argue your own point.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I see you take the easy way out instead of having the wherewithal to argue your own point.

Why rehash my point to you that reject it's essential message. I was arguing far past the striking down of the law but you guys didn't really get that or if you did you pretended not to.
After a while I get bored of such weaseling tactics coming from my opposition..
By the way, next time you agree with my basic premise (as you calimed) try not to be saying "spot on " about its misrepresentation by a no nothing clod.-Tyr

[ConHog]

Why rehash my point to you that reject it's essential message. I was arguing far past the striking down of the law but you guys didn't really get that or if you did you pretended not to.
After a while I get bored of such weaseling tactics coming from my opposition..
By the way, next time you agree with my basic premise (as you calimed) try not to be saying "spot on " about its misrepresentation by a no nothing clod.-Tyr

is an insult that makes no sense an insult at all? An interesting question.

But I digress. FJ I just think he simply doesn't get it. Arguing that a right exists doesn't mean you agree with how some exercise that right.

[fj1200]

Why rehash my point to you that reject it's essential message. I was arguing far past the striking down of the law but you guys didn't really get that or if you did you pretended not to.
After a while I get bored of such weaseling tactics coming from my opposition..
By the way, next time you agree with my basic premise (as you calimed) try not to be saying "spot on " about its misrepresentation by a no nothing clod.-Tyr

Because its essential message is muddled. Should it be ignored? No. Should it be criminal? Not if it infringes 1A. I didn't expect you to consider the Constitution a 'weasel tactic.' :dunno:

[ConHog]

Because its essential message is muddled. Should it be ignored? No. Should it be criminal? Not if it infringes 1A. I didn't expect you to consider the Constitution a 'weasel tactic.' :dunno:


That's gonna leave a mark.

[aboutime]

:laugh: :laugh2: :laugh:, ok Tonto....--Tyr


4408 "Tonto want know. What mean in English....FJ?"

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Because its essential message is muddled. Should it be ignored? No. Should it be criminal? Not if it infringes 1A. I didn't expect you to consider the Constitution a 'weasel tactic.' :dunno:

That was directed solely at my opposition on this thread and not at the Constitution.
Perhaps reading it again will help ya buddy..
How could the Constitution be employing weasel tactics against me here? It can not , so obviously its you attempting to muddle things here, Hoss.-Tyr

[logroller]

If those that served honorably take no interest in exposing these liars why should anybody else? We see that government has now reversed a law to now make it easier for the liars to continue, thus cheapening the service of those that served honorably. For such people convince others of their deeds then they having no honor lead others to believe heroes act the way they do!

One of my very good friends was an honorable Marine combat veteran that served in Vietnam. I remember vividly what outrage he expressed when seeing a liar attempt to steal that which others HAVE DIED OR BEEN WOUNDED ACTUALLY DOING! So much so that rather than ignore it ,he confronted the pretender and upon exposing the man to truly be the liar that he was, my friend would then proceed to kick his ass! And that ladies and gentlemen is how a Marine treats such lowlife , lying posers! Not by standing back ignoring , by jaw dropping awe or ignorant admiration but by forcing the truth to see light of day and then taking real action!

My other great friend that was a Korean War veteran I never got to see take action against such liars but he told me of two incidents where he too got fed up listening to a pretender and just walked over beat hell out of them . Not saying a word to anybody, just doing the deed and leaving. He was a fairly quiet man and such was his style. Quiet but by no means timid.

Sadly both men are passed on now but I was indeed lucky to have them as mentors in my young life. I respect the hell out of them because they were solid men of principles, quick to defend those fallen heroes's honor by not allowing such pretenders to steal that which should never be allowed to be stolen!!
This is one place where zero tolerance really should thrive IMHO.. --Tyr


[/COLOR]
That's criminal battery.

[ConHog]

That's criminal battery.

Perfectly acceptable as long as its done for the right reasons.





Thats sarcasm in case lady shitslinger shows up and doesnt recognize it

[fj1200]

That was directed solely at my opposition on this thread and not at the Constitution.
Perhaps reading it again will help ya buddy..
How could the Constitution be employing weasel tactics against me here? It can not , so obviously its you attempting to muddle things here, Hoss.-Tyr

Clearly you are having trouble with your own position.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Clearly you are having trouble with your own position.

All to clear that you are having trouble with my position not me. After all you are arguing for a victory that in essence condones stealing ,lying and outright fraud. Paint you pig and put a fancy dress on it but its till a damn pig..
Enjoy....-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's criminal battery.

Yes it was.. No denying that it was.
What you people miss is that it was justice delivered. And by Marines that still knew how and when to do so!!
Myself, Id love to have a friendly chat in person with anybody that dare to call my two friends unworthy of the right to defend their honor and that of their fallen friends! Before you start, that's not a damn threat. It means exactly as it reads.. -Tyr

[fj1200]

All to clear that you are having trouble with my position not me. After all you are arguing for a victory that in essence condones stealing ,lying and outright fraud. Paint you pig and put a fancy dress on it but its till a damn pig..
Enjoy....-Tyr

It appears you can neither state my position clearly nor your own. Sometimes the First is ugly but we have it for a reason.

[logroller]

Yes it was.. No denying that it was.
What you people miss is that it was justice delivered. And by Marines that still knew how and when to do so!!
Myself, Id love to have a friendly chat in person with anybody that dare to call my two friends unworthy of the right to defend their honor and that of their fallen friends! Before you start, that's not a damn threat. It means exactly as it reads.. -Tyr
That's criminal assault.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's criminal assault.

Repeating an accusation does not make it valid. Or prove it is correct.
If you are referencing my reply with that then I have to say, you are daft.-Tyr

quote-
"Myself, Id love to have a friendly chat in person with anybody that dare to call my two friends unworthy of the right to defend their honor and.."

"Before you start, that's not a damn threat. It means exactly as it reads"..

Clearly I anticipated where you would attempt to take my reply...-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It appears you can neither state my position clearly nor your own. Sometimes the First is ugly but we have it for a reason.

I do believe I was first to point out that you and others replying here were misrepresenting my position in an ATTEMPT TO MUDDY THE WATERS!
Your copycat response surely only impresses you and your sidekick. Enjoy being lazy and dishonest...-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Back on topic.... As I'm done with tending to blather from dishonest clowns here. This thread deserves better than that IMHO.-Tyr

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NEW ORLEANS — A Louisiana State University student has been charged with falsely claiming he was awarded the Purple Heart and with wearing military medals without authorization.

[logroller]

Yes it was.. No denying that it was.
What you people miss is that it was justice delivered. And by Marines that still knew how and when to do so!!
Myself, Id love to have a friendly chat in person with anybody that dare to call my two friends unworthy of the right to defend their honor and that of their fallen friends! Before you start, that's not a damn threat. It means exactly as it reads.. -Tyr
Are you friends with such people? Why have the convo in person? Can you have it here, with me....chat away. How does posing offend their honor? It may be seen as dilution, but that's hardly offensive. If there's damage done, let them show tort and the courts would award damages.
Using your jusification of defending honor, What say you of honor killings? if honor, or its insult justifies physical violence to you, then you don't hold individual freedom nearly as high as you would lead on. And what you defend is not honor, but pride.

[Abbey Marie]

I haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps missed something on point.

My thoughts: Framing this as a free speech issue only, or even primarily, downplays the fact that the sacrifices of those who served are diluted when someone lies about their service and fools people. Since there aren't always tangible damages in such a case, I think it's a good thing in very specific and rare circumstances to recognize some things as a crime nonetheless.
This is one of those circumstances.

[ConHog]

I haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps missed something on point.

My thoughts: Framing this as a free speech issue only, or even primarily, downplays the fact that the sacrifices of those who served are diluted when someone lies about their service and fools people. Since there aren't always tangible damages in such a case, I think it's a good thing in very specific and rare circumstances to recognize some things as a crime nonetheless.
This is one of those circumstances.

and who decides which rare cases we make lying a crime? Thought yall didn't trust the government with any more power than necessary?

[fj1200]

I do believe I was first to point out that you and others replying here were misrepresenting my position in an ATTEMPT TO MUDDY THE WATERS!
Your copycat response surely only impresses you and your sidekick. Enjoy being lazy and dishonest...-Tyr

It seems you were doing that quite well on your own. I'm not sure why you complain about someone openly misrepresenting your position when you have no compunction against doing the same.

[ConHog]

It seems you were doing that quite well on your own. I'm not sure why you complain about someone openly misrepresenting your position when you have no compunction against doing the same.

:laugh:

[aboutime]

At the heart of it, there are already laws on the books for dealing with folks who try to make money or gain some advantage for misrepresenting themselves as veterans/heroes. Altering government documents, including service records, is already illegal. As a veteran, it does annoy the crap out of me when some clown represents himself as some kind of veteran/hero or victim when they are not and never served at all. That being said, I believe the truth will out sooner or later. Those who have served and exagerate their service ... well, I don't like it but tend to cut them a bit of slack. It is my experience that those who have served in combat generally do not talk about it at all (some exception when they are with others who have had similar experience). If there is some question, than as has been said in another post ... trust but verify. I will also point out that, as you desscribe in the post above, those who have been there and done that can tell who hasor has not been there too.


CSM. As veterans. I mean...real veterans. Most of us know how to identify the phonies whenever they pop up. As for anyone questioning mine, or any other veteran, as to credibility. None of us need to worry, or care about providing proof to anyone here.
Matter of fact. With all due respect to Jim, the Admin of this forum. None of us who HONORABLY served have any need to explain, or disclose any portion of our past...just to prove to someone who MEANS NOTHING...that we actually are who we are.

I have not been able to find any website, or forum anywhere on the Internet that is important enough to me...to disclose any part of my life to anyone else. If there is such a requirement..for membership, or participation. It is a RED FLAG to me, and should always be to others. How such RED FLAGS are based on PHISHING, or Gathering personal Information. All of which is a Privacy matter that should never be breached....anywhere, by anyone.

If there are member of this forum who believe, or think I am a phony because of my exposure of my 30 years in uniform as nothing but a ruse, or lies. That's too bad for them.
I have nothing to prove to anyone else as long as my Military retirement is deposited each month.
OR..in extreme circumstances. It will only matter to me IF....ANY MEMBER here...promises to PAY ALL OF OUR BILLS until the day I die.

[fj1200]

As for anyone questioning mine, or any other veteran, as to credibility.

Did I miss where someone was questioning your service?

[aboutime]

Did I miss where someone was questioning your service?


No. Just preparing for the obvious.

[fj1200]

No. Just preparing for the obvious.

Someone was obviously going to question your service?

[ConHog]

Did I miss where someone was questioning your service?



Who? What?

[fj1200]

Who? What?

:dunno: It's obvious though.

[ConHog]

:dunno: It's obvious though.

That's different.





somehow.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Are you friends with such people? Why have the convo in person? Can you have it here, with me....chat away. How does posing offend their honor? It may be seen as dilution, but that's hardly offensive. If there's damage done, let them show tort and the courts would award damages.
Using your jusification of defending honor, What say you of honor killings? if honor, or its insult justifies physical violence to you, then you don't hold individual freedom nearly as high as you would lead on. And what you defend is not honor, but pride.

You damn right I was friends with those honorable men. Why discuss it any deeper here?
You sent the reply, "That's criminal assault".
I replied , "yes it is" .. What more do you want? Me to bow down and praise the rest of your post?
They both were Marines and they both took immediate action. I applaud them for it and you condemn them for it.
Nothing left to say about that except.
Honor and pride are two peas in the same pod, Hoss. -Tyr

[Abbey Marie]

and who decides which rare cases we make lying a crime? Thought yall didn't trust the government with any more power than necessary?

Who decides anything? That's a specious argument; with all due respect. If that is the criterion for having any laws, we'd have none.

[ConHog]

Who decides anything? That's a specious argument; with all due respect. If that is the criterion for having any laws, we'd have none.

Actually our laws are anything but specious. I have that debate elsewhere when people cry about the DUI laws stating that tickets should only be written if a person is driving poorly rather than base it off of BAC.

A hard line has to be drawn somewhere and adhered to else we may as well fall back to the days when a dude wearing a silly crown decided out of the blue that different standards applied to people he liked.

Our law is free speech, not free speech as long as it's true, or in some cases free speech unless a person who doesn't like you declares it to be untrue without a single shred of evidence.

No matter how horrific some judge the lie, free speech applies.

Of course that only applies to the government and making things criminal.

[Abbey Marie]

Actually our laws are anything but specious. I have that debate elsewhere when people cry about the DUI laws stating that tickets should only be written if a person is driving poorly rather than base it off of BAC.

A hard line has to be drawn somewhere and adhered to else we may as well fall back to the days when a dude wearing a silly crown decided out of the blue that different standards applied to people he liked.

Our law is free speech, not free speech as long as it's true, or in some cases free speech unless a person who doesn't like you declares it to be untrue without a single shred of evidence.

No matter how horrific some judge the lie, free speech applies.

Of course that only applies to the government and making things criminal.

Actually, slander laws are an exception to unbridled free speech. For an example.
You are making a tenuous slippery slope argument that I cannot agree with. Making an exception does not mean the whole first amendment goes under.

[ConHog]

Actually, slander laws are an exception to unbridled free speech. For an example. You are making a tenuous slippery slope argument that I cannot agree with. Making an exception does not mean the whole first amendment goes under..Incorrect abbey. Slander is notna criminal offense.

[logroller]

You damn right I was friends with those honorable men. Why discuss it any deeper here?
You sent the reply, "That's criminal assault".
I replied , "yes it is" .. What more do you want? Me to bow down and praise the rest of your post?
They both were Marines and they both took immediate action. I applaud them for it and you condemn them for it.
Nothing left to say about that except.
Honor and pride are two peas in the same pod, Hoss. -Tyr
No no, not those who served, those who dare to challenge;with whom you'd like to have a "friendly chat...in person". What's so friendly- are they your friends? By in person-- you gonna pat them in the back? Buy them a beer? Saying "this isn't a threat" doesn't make it not so. A veiled threat is still a threat. That you applaud confronting false speech with violence speaks against your character, not in favor of it IMO. Taking pleasure in another's suffering at the hands of another man is hedonism at its most egregious. This is testament to the weakness of man; preferring violence to non-violence. If another chooses to covet the honorable actions of another, it is not man who shall exact vengeance.

Nothing more to say...except pride:honor::vengeance:justice.

[ConHog]

No no, not those who served, those who dare to challenge;with whom you'd like to have a "friendly chat...in person". What's so friendly- are they your friends? By in person-- you gonna pat them in the back? Buy them a beer? Saying "this isn't a threat" doesn't make it not so. A veiled threat is still a threat. That you applaud confronting false speech with violence speaks against your character, not in favor of it IMO. Taking pleasure in another's suffering at the hands of another man is hedonism at its most egregious. This is testament to the weakness of man; preferring violence to non-violence. If another chooses to covet the honorable actions of another, it is not man who shall exact vengeance.

Nothing more to say...except pride:honor::vengeance:justice.

Excellent post would read and rep again.

No sarcasm..

[gabosaurus]

No no, not those who served, those who dare to challenge;with whom you'd like to have a "friendly chat...in person". What's so friendly- are they your friends? By in person-- you gonna pat them in the back? Buy them a beer? Saying "this isn't a threat" doesn't make it not so. A veiled threat is still a threat. That you applaud confronting false speech with violence speaks against your character, not in favor of it IMO. Taking pleasure in another's suffering at the hands of another man is hedonism at its most egregious. This is testament to the weakness of man; preferring violence to non-violence. If another chooses to covet the honorable actions of another, it is not man who shall exact vengeance.


Some people are like that. Which is why I fear these people having a lot of weapons in their hands.
That was the case in the Houston college shooting. Some guy bumped another guy in a hallway. The bumped person took offense and used a gun to display his feelings.

I asked my dad's best friend about this. He went to social gathering once to confront a guy who had been bragging about winning medals in Viet Nam. Instead of punching the guy in face because he is a liar, they merely trapped him with details and exposed him to ridicule.
There are tons of people who might be feeling shame or envy because they didn't serve. Perhaps they were too cowardly at the time. So they make up stuff. To me, it is no different than making up lies about why you stole from your company or cheated on your wife.
Take Ted Nugent. He took the coward's way out in the 60's and avoided the draft. Now he feels guilt and covers it up by playing Mr. Macho Gun Lover who is in favor of killing his enemies.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

No no, not those who served, those who dare to challenge;with whom you'd like to have a "friendly chat...in person". What's so friendly- are they your friends? By in person-- you gonna pat them in the back? Buy them a beer? Saying "this isn't a threat" doesn't make it not so. A veiled threat is still a threat. That you applaud confronting false speech with violence speaks against your character, not in favor of it IMO. Taking pleasure in another's suffering at the hands of another man is hedonism at its most egregious. This is testament to the weakness of man; preferring violence to non-violence. If another chooses to covet the honorable actions of another, it is not man who shall exact vengeance.

Nothing more to say...except pride:honor::vengeance:justice.

First , let me get this on the record. You want to direct this thread into a witch hunt about my character when its about the character of those that lie ,steal and cheat. ABOUT THOSE THAT STEAL VALOR WITH LIES , FRAUD AND EVEN FAKE DOCUMENTS!

Do try to discuss the subject of the thread.

Your telling me what I meant is a bit like a prostitute telling a John how great her services are! Its totally self-serving and insulting to boot. What, did you feel that you should be accosted for your reply? If so, why? If not why not take my word about it not being a threat, which it wasn't.
I had decided THAT I had talked enough about my two friends and wanted to reveal no more because they both are deceased. I decided -NOT- to speak anymore on the subject about those two men.
If you don't like that then tough shat ,Hoss. It's my call not yours.

Along this line nothing more to say except, your blade pierces not my armor and I find your deceit in this matter to be a clever maneuver to carry on a grudge you hold against me.
That's fine, stab any time you like but not when it concerns the life and honor of those two men!!

Is that honor that I hold for those two men why you think you would be in danger should we talk face to face??
I really did mean a friendly talk but seeing how you have now played this I say we should not meet. In fact, I would never meet you as I do not indulge the arrogance and bullshat of strangers with timid and kind thoughts..
I guess I am too much like those two men, for they too were men unlike you that knew the difference between their ass and a hole in a ground!-
You had your say, now I've had mine , I suggest that you kindly stay on topic.-Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

At the heart of it, there are already laws on the books for dealing with folks who try to make money or gain some advantage for misrepresenting themselves as veterans/heroes. Altering government documents, including service records, is already illegal. As a veteran, it does annoy the crap out of me when some clown represents himself as some kind of veteran/hero or victim when they are not and never served at all. That being said, I believe the truth will out sooner or later. Those who have served and exagerate their service ... well, I don't like it but tend to cut them a bit of slack. It is my experience that those who have served in combat generally do not talk about it at all (some exception when they are with others who have had similar experience). If there is some question, than as has been said in another post ... trust but verify. I will also point out that, as you desscribe in the post above, those who have been there and done that can tell who hasor has not been there too.

I agree entirely. I spoke on AOL of my service in the Army but Democrat supporters raised hell because I said I had never served in Combat. When I mentioned that in Germany our main enemy we trained for was the Soviets, in 1962-4, I was told that I stared down the red menace is all.

However the detractors only voted for Democrats.

[logroller]

Some people are like that. Which is why I fear these people having a lot of weapons in their hands.
That was the case in the Houston college shooting. Some guy bumped another guy in a hallway. The bumped person took offense and used a gun to display his feelings.

I asked my dad's best friend about this. He went to social gathering once to confront a guy who had been bragging about winning medals in Viet Nam. Instead of punching the guy in face because he is a liar, they merely trapped him with details and exposed him to ridicule.
There are tons of people who might be feeling shame or envy because they didn't serve. Perhaps they were too cowardly at the time. So they make up stuff. To me, it is no different than making up lies about why you stole from your company or cheated on your wife.
Take Ted Nugent. He took the coward's way out in the 60's and avoided the draft. Now he feels guilt and covers it up by playing Mr. Macho Gun Lover who is in favor of killing his enemies.
Unfortunately people are like that; that's why we've a right to bear arms. Understand this-- anger and violence are not contingent upon access to weaponry; nor civility and reason contingent upon their prohibition. The contentious issues of our times are far from unprecedented. The fervor of mass communication networks have overwhelmed our sensibilities; but I shudder to think censoring such would be to the benefit of society. It is by no coincidence that the first amendment is followed by the second; they are synergistic.

[Robert A Whit]

Some people are like that. Which is why I fear these people having a lot of weapons in their hands.
That was the case in the Houston college shooting. Some guy bumped another guy in a hallway. The bumped person took offense and used a gun to display his feelings.

I asked my dad's best friend about this. He went to social gathering once to confront a guy who had been bragging about winning medals in Viet Nam. Instead of punching the guy in face because he is a liar, they merely trapped him with details and exposed him to ridicule.
There are tons of people who might be feeling shame or envy because they didn't serve. Perhaps they were too cowardly at the time. So they make up stuff. To me, it is no different than making up lies about why you stole from your company or cheated on your wife.
Take Ted Nugent. He took the coward's way out in the 60's and avoided the draft. Now he feels guilt and covers it up by playing Mr. Macho Gun Lover who is in favor of killing his enemies.

If you lived during the 1960s, and saw the protests about the Vietnam war, perhaps you could find it in your heart to forgive Ted Nugent. For he and many other young men resisted the draft as did Clinton and like Clinton fled the USA.

Do you also have such hard feelings for one William Clinton the draft dodger?

[logroller]

First , let me get this on the record. You want to direct this thread into a witch hunt about my character when its about the character of those that lie ,steal and cheat. ABOUT THOSE THAT STEAL VALOR WITH LIES , FRAUD AND EVEN FAKE DOCUMENTS!

i thought this was about protecting the honor of those so deserving...not witch hunts. I simply don't believe the honorable thing to do is exact vengeance. You introduced that into the discussion, not I.


Do try to discuss the subject of the thread.

Bump


Plurality--
“Sworn testimony is quite distinct from lies not spoken under oath and simply intended to puff up oneself.”
(Clearly.)
“The remedy for speech that is false is speech that is true. This is the ordinary course in a free society.”
(We're either on an extraordinary course or are no longer a free society...likely a blend of both.)
“… the Act’s breadth of coverage could be diminished or eliminated by a more finely tailored statute, for example, a statute that requires a showing that the false statement caused specific harm or is focused on lies more likely to be harmful or on contexts where such lies are likely to cause harm.”
(how broad is the wording of law being challenged? )


“The statute seeks to control and suppress all false statements on this one subject in almost limitless times and settings. And it does so entirely without regard to whether the lie was made for the purpose of material gain.”
(This seems a lot like the requirements for slander and libel; reasonable limits on speech.)



Dissent--


“Because a sufficiently comprehensive database [of military awards] is not practicable, lies about military awards cannot be remedied by what the plurality calls ‘counterspeech.’”
( Should free speech be limited by that which is verifiable? )


“But much damage is caused, both to real award recipients and to the system of military honors, by false statements that are not linked to any financial or other tangible reward.”
(Not being a vet myself, I'm curious to know if veterans here feel if their own honorable service awards are damaged by posers? )


Your telling me what I meant is a bit like a prostitute telling a John how great her services are! Its totally self-serving and insulting to boot. What, did you feel that you should be accosted for your If so, why? If not why not take my word about it not being a threat, which it wasn't.
so you're likening me to a whore. That's self-serving and insulting to boot. Nothing illustrates a point better than hypocrisy. Understand that communication is a two way street; its not just what you say, its how its received.


I had decided THAT I had talked enough about my two friends and wanted to reveal no more because they both are deceased. I decided -NOT- to speak anymore on the subject about those two men.


If you don't like that then tough shat ,Hoss. It's my call not yours.
Then quit responding to the subject. You introduced them, and if you continue defending actions which I find disagreeable, my responses will continue until such time as I decide, not you.



Along this line nothing more to say except, your blade pierces not my armor and I find your deceit in this matter to be a clever maneuver to carry on a grudge you hold against me.
That's fine, stab any time you like but not when it concerns the life and honor of those two men!!
dude, I don't have a grudge against you. Just your constant attacks upon any who dare disagree. I don't know those two; you did. You brought them up and what they did and I disagree that the story you told of them demonstrates honor. Sorry if that offends you, but I know of someone who was reprimanded and lost their stripes over such an incident-- so its certainly not the position of the US Army that using violence against words is honorable.


Is that honor that I hold for those two men why you think you would be in danger should we talk face to face?? I didn't see why a meeting face to face would be necessary.

I really did mean a friendly talk but seeing how you have now played this I say we should not meet. In fact, I would never meet you as I do not indulge the arrogance and bullshat of strangers with timid and kind thoughts. well I wasn't booking a flight there friend.


I guess I am too much like those two men, for they too were men unlike you that knew the difference between their ass and a hole in a ground!-
You had your say, now I've had mine , I suggest that you kindly stay on topic.-Tyr I'll do your friends a solid and hold my toungue; saying only that if you use that expression, you might be redneck. To the topic-- See my bumped post above. There's another too. Ill bump it for ya.

[logroller]

Bumped
It's pretty easy to debunk someone saying they were KIA. If you and I split a nickel for every person that lied about their honor and integrity, we'd be rich men. But the reality is its not those deserving of such honor that are disenfranchised; its those that bestow such honor being mislead. I mean, the guys and gals that actually earned that aren't shorted. Most I talk to dont really care; they know the real deal from the farce. That's the thing about honor and integrity-- if you have it, no one can take it-- not even someone faking it.

[ConHog]

I find it totally fucked up that a person would advocate making free speech a crime while at the same time exhorting the honor of assaulting someone you disagree with .

[jimnyc]

I find it totally fucked up that a person would advocate making free speech a crime while at the same time exhorting the honor of assaulting someone you disagree with .

Not far fetched. If someone walked down my block and attempted to light an American Flag on fire, I might be a little testy as to how I put the flames out, to say the least. I understand that this may be his right to do so, based on "free speech", but I also feel sometimes an honorable man might step in.

No assault here, but reminded me of one of the greatest baseball plays of all time:

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IrV8QPQAhxo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jimnyc]

^Then again, that flag didn't belong to Rick Monday - I wonder if he should be charged with theft? :lol:

[gabosaurus]

If you lived during the 1960s, and saw the protests about the Vietnam war, perhaps you could find it in your heart to forgive Ted Nugent. For he and many other young men resisted the draft as did Clinton and like Clinton fled the USA.

Do you also have such hard feelings for one William Clinton the draft dodger?

Do you even research that STUPID statement before you made it?
Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. Which allowed him to study at Oxford. The U.S. government routinely granted exemptions for college students, particularly Rhodes Scholars.
Ted Nugent, on the other hand, smeared peanut butter and excrement over himself before his draft hearing and stated that he would be a danger to others if he was drafted.
My dad was drafted and gained the same exemption given to full time students in regular attendance at an institution for higher learning.

Robert, perhaps you are getting too senile to keep your facts in order.

[jimnyc]

Do you even research that STUPID statement before you made it?
Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. Which allowed him to study at Oxford. The U.S. government routinely granted exemptions for college students, particularly Rhodes Scholars.
Ted Nugent, on the other hand, smeared peanut butter and excrement over himself before his draft hearing and stated that he would be a danger to others if he was drafted.
My dad was drafted and gained the same exemption given to full time students in regular attendance at an institution for higher learning.

Robert, perhaps you are getting too senile to keep your facts in order.

Interesting, did GWB get the same respect for his actual service, although he got an easier gig than most?

[gabosaurus]

Interesting, did GWB get the same respect for his actual service, although he got an easier gig than most?

GW Bush had no "actual service." He joined the National Guard to avoid the draft.

Rick Monday's actions, while valiant and honorable, had nothing to do with baseball. Thus, it should not be classified as one of the "greatest plays in baseball."

[jimnyc]

GW Bush had no "actual service." He joined the National Guard to avoid the draft.

Rick Monday's actions, while valiant and honorable, had nothing to do with baseball. Thus, it should not be classified as one of the "greatest plays in baseball."

So one who actually serves his country is a draft dodger, and the one who doesn't serve and goes abroad is a good fella? I don't know why I waste my time.

[gabosaurus]

So one who actually serves his country is a draft dodger, and the one who doesn't serve and goes abroad is a good fella? I don't know why I waste my time.

Obviously it is beyond your capabilities to understand what a Rhodes Scholar is. I don't know why I waste my time. :rolleyes:

[ConHog]

Not far fetched. If someone walked down my block and attempted to light an American Flag on fire, I might be a little testy as to how I put the flames out, to say the least. I understand that this may be his right to do so, based on "free speech", but I also feel sometimes an honorable man might step in.

No assault here, but reminded me of one of the greatest baseball plays of all time:

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IrV8QPQAhxo" allowfullscreen="" width="480" frameborder="0" height="360"></iframe>

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm just saying that running around declaring that your actual crime is honorable while questioning the honor of others seems a little stupid to me.

I dare say you wouldn't put much a man who burned a flag in your neighborhood then go in and tell your kids that it was the honorable thing to do.

Sort of related to the topic of torture where I stated that I believe certain things we do are torture, and that is wrong, but sometimes you just have to do things, even if they are wrong.

[jimnyc]

Obviously it is beyond your capabilities to understand what a Rhodes Scholar is. I don't know why I waste my time. :rolleyes:

Sometimes you actually think you are brighter than others here. I've personally offered to debate you one on one on quite a few subjects. And just like your dream boy, you run to another country out of fear.

[jimnyc]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm just saying that running around declaring that your actual crime is honorable while questioning the honor of others seems a little stupid to me.

I dare say you wouldn't put much a man who burned a flag in your neighborhood then go in and tell your kids that it was the honorable thing to do.

Sort of related to the topic of torture where I stated that I believe certain things we do are torture, and that is wrong, but sometimes you just have to do things, even if they are wrong.

Honestly, if I saw my neighbor sock a guy a few times as he took a burning flag away from him, I would invite him over for a steak and some brews. I would then explain to my son all about Old Glory, where she's been and how longs she's flown.

My thoughts are best said by Kenny Rogers...

Dad:
"Promise me, son, not to do the things I've done.
Walk away from trouble if you can.
Now it won't mean you're weak if you turn the other cheek.
I hope you're old enough to understand:
Son, you don't have to fight to be a man."


Son:
"I promised you, Dad, not to do the things you done.
I've walked away from trouble when I can.
Now please don't think I'm weak, I didn't turn the other cheek,
And Papa, I sure hope you understand:
Sometimes you gotta fight when you're a man."

[ConHog]

Sometimes you actually think you are brighter than others here. I've personally offered to debate you one on one on quite a few subjects. And just like your dream boy, you run to another country out of fear.

Quite a few pull that trick. "hey if you think you're smarter than me let's debate one on one"

next thing you see is

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMqq9Bl5pUpW9xfQeQhIgMfU66J8ec8--HSbqv0Hl7J7b5LYICWA


in the other direction LOL

[ConHog]

Honestly, if I saw my neighbor sock a guy a few times as he took a burning flag away from him, I would invite him over for a steak and some brews. I would then explain to my son all about Old Glory, where she's been and how longs she's flown.

My thoughts are best said by Kenny Rogers...

Dad:
"Promise me, son, not to do the things I've done.
Walk away from trouble if you can.
Now it won't mean you're weak if you turn the other cheek.
I hope you're old enough to understand:
Son, you don't have to fight to be a man."


Son:
"I promised you, Dad, not to do the things you done.
I've walked away from trouble when I can.
Now please don't think I'm weak, I didn't turn the other cheek,
And Papa, I sure hope you understand:
Sometimes you gotta fight when you're a man."

Sometimes you do have to fight when you're man, doesn't make it honorable. Exactly as I said.

[jimnyc]

Sometimes you do have to fight when you're man, doesn't make it honorable. Exactly as I said.

I'm of the belief, that the few times in life where fighting is necessary, it IS for honor.

[ConHog]

I'm of the belief, that the few times in life where fighting is necessary, it IS for honor.

no, it is for pride, an altogether different thing.

To paraphrase Roadhouse

"do we fight if they call our momma a whore?"
"is she?"

its all about pride, not honor.

Honor , I believe the Muslims use that excuse when they kill people for "crimes"

[jimnyc]

no, it is for pride, an altogether different thing.

To paraphrase Roadhouse

"do we fight if they call our momma a whore?"
"is she?"

its all about pride, not honor.

Honor , I believe the Muslims use that excuse when they kill people for "crimes"

Maybe YOU see it as pride, I don't. I think we should honor our Flag, just as we honor our military vets, just as we honor those we have lost in wars.

[ConHog]

Maybe YOU see it as pride, I don't. I think we should honor our Flag, just as we honor our military vets, just as we honor those we have lost in wars.

Honoring our flag and what it stands for would mean standing by while people exercise their rights, wouldn't it? Or is that only if they exercise their rights in a manner that suits you?

This is the same discussion I've had with you about gay marriage Jim. If we truly believe that we are the land of the free and home of the brave and that we cherish individual rights above all else, then that means we even cherish the rights of people with whom we disagree.

What we feel personally should have NO bearing on whether we agree a person CAN do it. Burn a flag, lie about service, fuck a guy in the ass. These are all disgusting and repugnant to most of us.

BUT nowhere in the COTUS does it say "rights are to be curtailed if the activity disgusts, irritates, or otherwise annoys other people"

Nope, you have to prove that exercising those rights jeopardizes other people or their rights before you can take those rights away.

This is why, for example, its illegal to yell fire in a crowded theater (though I often wonder is it illegal to yell fire in an empty theater?)

Either we're all free, or were none free.

[jimnyc]

Thank you for the lesson, teach, but whether society finds me right or wrong, I still have an opinion. I acknowledged that it's legitimately protected by law. I simply don't care. Personally, I would rather deal with the assault case then let someone burn a flag near me. I guess I would only get so many chances before getting locked up though, so I suppose I best make them count when it happens. I'll gladly take a bit of punishment for protecting even one flag from being burnt, right or wrong in some peoples eyes.

[ConHog]

Thank you for the lesson, teach, but whether society finds me right or wrong, I still have an opinion. I acknowledged that it's legitimately protected by law. I simply don't care. Personally, I would rather deal with the assault case then let someone burn a flag near me. I guess I would only get so many chances before getting locked up though, so I suppose I best make them count when it happens. I'll gladly take a bit of punishment for protecting even one flag from being burnt, right or wrong in some peoples eyes.

There's no reason to get snarky at the tail end of a civil discussion Jim. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion, and in point of fact I actually agreed with you when you said that sometimes you just have to say fuck it and do it anyway.

[jimnyc]

There's no reason to get snarky at the tail end of a civil discussion Jim. I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion, and in point of fact I actually agreed with you when you said that sometimes you just have to say fuck it and do it anyway.

If you think calling you "teach", or rambling about what I would do, is "snarky", then apparently you don't read a lot of my posts. Either way, don't get butt hurt over me laughing about a lecture. I thought it was funny, it just didn't change my mind is all.

[ConHog]

If you think calling you "teach", or rambling about what I would do, is "snarky", then apparently you don't read a lot of my posts. Either way, don't get butt hurt over me laughing about a lecture. I thought it was funny, it just didn't change my mind is all.

who's butt hurt? Oh and I've read enough of your posts to know that you would NEVER change your mind about ANYTHING so no worries on that front.
:coffee:

[jimnyc]

who's butt hurt? Oh and I've read enough of your posts to know that you would NEVER change your mind about ANYTHING so no worries on that front.
:coffee:

I've been known to change my mind, just not from your crap! :lol:

[ConHog]

I've been known to change my mind, just not from your crap! :lol:

Disagree all you want with my OPINION, but what I have posted in this thread in particular is not crap Jim.

[jimnyc]

Disagree all you want with my OPINION, but what I have posted in this thread in particular is not crap Jim.

Yep, and reminds me of when I was a kid. I used to go out in the yard to clean up after the dog. I used a leaf rake and would pull it all into one spot before getting the shovel and brown bag. It was one big 'ol pile of crap, just like your posts here! LOL

Damn, chill out dude. People will tell others their posts or opinions are for the birds all the time. No need to be so damn touchy, especially if it's coming from me.

[Robert A Whit]

Recent research shows that those guilty of having Stolen Valor come out to defend their actions on blogs, forums , etc. They often do this by decrying the attack on the 1st Amendment!
While what they really mean is it's nobody's damn business how much the lying b@stards lie!!
I myself find such trash talk a poor substitute for defending honor and integrity.
And those vomiting it out to be shills of the lowest order IMHO.-Tyr

Why brag at all about the military?

Take me for instance. There is not one thing being in the Army did that can get me to brag about the Army.

Some points.
1. I got drafted. Clearly since I waited till age 23 for the long arm of the selective service to come get me, means that is nothing to brag about.
2. Benefits. When i was discharged from Ft. Dix, NJ in January 1964, the public was not speaking at all about the Vietnam war. So why not? Well, Johnson had not yet invaded Vietnam. When an Army enters a country it is not soverign in, in the hundreds of thousands, even if welcome, it still amounts to an invasion. Why? Due to the fact that when you take the citizens of that nations wishes into account, perhaps they want zero war but with an invasion you get a huge war. As to my benefits upon being discharged, I believe my only so called benefit was I was entitled to a burial spot and a head stone. I think any funeral was to be provided for by somebody other than the Government.

Did I get GI bill rights? Nope. Did I get going to college rights? Nope.

When did I get those rights?

Congress around 1972 finalized a new law that brought in those that served honorably past 1955.

1955 had been the cut off. Those serving before 1955 had full rights due mainly to the Korean War. I got swept in by the duty of the Vietnam war. I was never in that war but Congress simply changed the law. To this day, i don't believe those rights created by congress have not expired. Seems this country finds ways to keep our men in wars.

I feel blessed that given I wanted no part of the Army, I happened to somehow or the other end up having perhaps the best duty any soldier can ask for. I got special priviledges for much of my service.

The other men had to do kitchen police jobs. Not me.
They had to perform guard duty. Not me.
They had to stand in morning formations. I did it till I became the company commanders clerk. I took direction from him and his first Sgt. Most of the time I was not being told what to do. I was on automatic pilot. I quickly got very good at the job so I did much of my work because I knew just what to do.

So, I got lucky.

When the company went out into the field, most of the time we kept back a few people to keep the lights on and the doors open, so to speak. I went out into the field two times. The rest of the guys went out many more times to train in the snow.

I am telling some of you the life of how it was for a lucky person to serve in Schweinfurt Germany. Rock of the Marne was our unit motto. We had not only 3rd division blue and white patches on our uniforms, we had these pins we put on our fatigue caps. If somebody wants to axk me technical stuff about the Army, I can tell you how it was from 1962-64.

But there is nothing to brag about. I had to do my duty or get a lot of pro9blems leading to a discharge on unfavorible terms.

Since I took care of the paperwork for men who were devoted to being as pain in the ass to the point they got kicked out, I know how that was done too.

I got to Schweinfurt and at an early point ran into a PFC Crose. Why do I recall his last name? I know his first name too. I typed those mens names so often that how can I forget?

Crose dressed very smartly. Most of the guys out on duty in their fatigues got to looking as if they slept in their garb. Not Crose. Crose always looked like he was made of starch.

One day he told me he was sick of the Army. He said he planned to get booted out. I believe he wanted a 208 discharge. We had 209 discharges too and though this happened well over 50 years ago, those numbers are in my brain. Crose started causing problems. First he looked like shit. Everybody saw his rapid change. The Commanding officer suddenly found Crose in his office where he did his best to keep Crose out of hot water. Crose got his way. I processed him out of the unit and he went back to the States. He would have been discharged at Ft. Dix, NJ since the Army had the guys come there for discharge. I did not see a lot of Ft. Dix but I recall the billets there for men on the way out. I visited the post HQ since I knew a CSM who was the highest ranking NCO at Ft. Dix and a hell of a nice guy and he drove me to personnel trying to get me out a few days earlier. You can imagine that my last name starts with W so I would often sit in the back of a class room and be one of the last the Army called to process. I never got called first due to my last name.

Hell, I recall the layout of Ledward Barracks in Schweinfurt. And Conn Barracks as well. Con Barracks is where the airfield and most of the M-60 tanks too. Ledward had several M-60 tanks assigned to the HQ unit. I believe that we had 2 Bn at Ledward.

But those nut cases that tell you they were in the military always seem to have been in combat. Many men have been in combat. They suffered. So how can those turds claim they also were in combat? They are crazy. If they wanted combat, all they had to do is join the military.

Simple as that.

[ConHog]

Yep, and reminds me of when I was a kid. I used to go out in the yard to clean up after the dog. I used a leaf rake and would pull it all into one spot before getting the shovel and brown bag. It was one big 'ol pile of crap, just like your posts here! LOL

Damn, chill out dude. People will tell others their posts or opinions are for the birds all the time. No need to be so damn touchy, especially if it's coming from me.

Get's old Jim.

This time it is YOU who took what was a good discussion and made it something different. Would be nice if once in awhile I could be involved in a discussion that someone didn't turn into a food fight.

I'm chill, just wanting more out of a message board I guess. My bad.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by ConHog http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=612739#post612739)
Disagree all you want with my OPINION, but what I have posted in this thread in particular is not crap Jim.






Jim with humor recalls: Yep, and reminds me of when I was a kid. I used to go out in the yard to clean up after the dog. I used a leaf rake and would pull it all into one spot before getting the shovel and brown bag. It was one big 'ol pile of crap, just like your posts here! LOL

Damn, chill out dude. People will tell others their posts or opinions are for the birds all the time. No need to be so damn touchy, especially if it's coming from me.

Hot damn. Glad you finally said that.

This guy reminds me of that arrogant jail bird on Bering Sea Gold (Discovery channel) that can't get along with anybody.

I only said reminds me. This guy was hired by some other guy to run his tiny gold dredge. They put divers down in shallow water and with suction hoses go for the gold. That arrogant SOB has been in and out of jail since he won't pay his child support. He only works under the threat of being put back in jail. Last season which lasts for the summer, despite his shouting, his name calling, his firing of other guys and so forth, got less than 1 oz of gold. He sucked big time. Nobody else came out of those same waters with less than about 12 oz and one captain got over $300,000 in gold. But this so called expert got under 1 oz. He got into a brawl with the boats owner. The owner believes this jerk took gold from him.

But this guy somehow this season managed to get investers to back him so he created his own dredge and it is barely stable in the sea unless the ocean is pure calm. Small waves impact on it's stability. The rest of the dredge owners wondered how he could make a dredge that simply is a bad design.

That guy is abrasive. And if he is an expert, I am a full time captain of the largest cruise ship in the world. LMAO

Ranger danger seems hell bent to piss people off. So he may not smell like pee Jim but he is all urine. (your'n)

[ConHog]

Hot damn. Glad you finally said that.

This guy reminds me of that arrogant jail bird on Bering Sea Gold (Discovery channel) that can't get along with anybody.

I only said reminds me. This guy was hired by some other guy to run his tiny gold dredge. They put divers down in shallow water and with suction hoses go for the gold. That arrogant SOB has been in and out of jail since he won't pay his child support. He only works under the threat of being put back in jail. Last season which lasts for the summer, despite his shouting, his name calling, his firing of other guys and so forth, got less than 1 oz of gold. He sucked big time. Nobody else came out of those same waters with less than about 12 oz and one captain got over $300,000 in gold. But this so called expert got under 1 oz. He got into a brawl with the boats owner. The owner believes this jerk took gold from him.

But this guy somehow this season managed to get investers to back him so he created his own dredge and it is barely stable in the sea unless the ocean is pure calm. Small waves impact on it's stability. The rest of the dredge owners wondered how he could make a dredge that simply is a bad design.

That guy is abrasive. And if he is an expert, I am a full time captain of the largest cruise ship in the world. LMAO

Ranger danger seems hell bent to piss people off. So he may not smell like pee Jim but he is all urine. (your'n)


I actually get along with several on here, Jim included for the most part, quite well. LOL You'fe know me all of about two weeks but feel you can judge me eh?

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Abbey http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=612483#post612483)
Actually, slander laws are an exception to unbridled free speech. For an example. You are making a tenuous slippery slope argument that I cannot agree with. Making an exception does not mean the whole first amendment goes under.






.Incorrect abbey. Slander is notna criminal offense.

Besides being a boob for calling her wrong, I would love to see you prove she mentioned criminal laws at all? Slander is spoken; Libel is in print, both are torts.

[Robert A Whit]

Thank you for the lesson, teach, but whether society finds me right or wrong, I still have an opinion. I acknowledged that it's legitimately protected by law. I simply don't care. Personally, I would rather deal with the assault case then let someone burn a flag near me. I guess I would only get so many chances before getting locked up though, so I suppose I best make them count when it happens. I'll gladly take a bit of punishment for protecting even one flag from being burnt, right or wrong in some peoples eyes.

Jim, I realize you are emotional about the flag.

Think of the flag as personal property and you won't get too upset when a person burns a flag or spits on it or takes a dump on it.

The flag began as some sort of threads woven into fabric that was either dyed after completion or colored thread was the material.

It belonged to the factory. They may toss many out for defects. They may even wipe their asses with some of them.

But it is sold to the store. At the store, it is the property of the store. Then one of us buys the flag. We now own personal property. Sure it is the flag, but that in no way means it is your property to defend, or my property to defend, that is the property of the person that paid for it.

My flag of the USA that flew on the mast for that purpose, at Pearl Harbor on the AZ that is sunken, certified to time and date it flew is my flag to defend. I would just about shoot somebody that tried to grab it or use it improperly, but it is my property.

If you bought a flag and used it as your dogs blanket, how can that be my business?

Defend your flag, but when others own theirs, it is theirs to act foolishly with. That is my take on this.

A moment ago, I finally read what you were told by that Bering Sea Gold dredge captain. LOL

I think he could have improved on how he spoke to this topic but if you analyze his words accurately, windy or not, he is dead right.

[jimnyc]

Get's old Jim.

This time it is YOU who took what was a good discussion and made it something different. Would be nice if once in awhile I could be involved in a discussion that someone didn't turn into a food fight.

I'm chill, just wanting more out of a message board I guess. My bad.

If I wanted to I could point out a fat handful of posts where you solely posted the "poop" smiley. I engaged you here, we had a decent amount of back and forth. I got a tad silly at the end, or humorous. It won't happen again. I'm not going to engage people that are going to whine over a few funny posts, even if at their expense (Lord knows no one else here has fun!).

Whatever, let's just move along then.

[Robert A Whit]

Some people are like that. Which is why I fear these people having a lot of weapons in their hands.
That was the case in the Houston college shooting. Some guy bumped another guy in a hallway. The bumped person took offense and used a gun to display his feelings.

I asked my dad's best friend about this. He went to social gathering once to confront a guy who had been bragging about winning medals in Viet Nam. Instead of punching the guy in face because he is a liar, they merely trapped him with details and exposed him to ridicule.
There are tons of people who might be feeling shame or envy because they didn't serve. Perhaps they were too cowardly at the time. So they make up stuff. To me, it is no different than making up lies about why you stole from your company or cheated on your wife.
Take Ted Nugent. He took the coward's way out in the 60's and avoided the draft. Now he feels guilt and covers it up by playing Mr. Macho Gun Lover who is in favor of killing his enemies.

Liars lie. They will lie about service they did not have, they will lie about any and all things.

I hate to see some veterans say they won't post their experiences. Hell, I own history books to get what vets said and did.

There are millions of vets. Must I always see them as all liars and fear telling my own experiences since some may claim they got lied to? Bingster and I chatted on this forum about our military experineces. I believe the man. We won't agree on a lot of politics, but I believe he served.
Some of you guys don't want to read anybody's experiences unless it is you doing the telling. I run into people who are very friendly but others are just as unfriendly. I feel bad they are living lives where they flat don't want to share.

I enjoy Jim's stories and yet he does not say he was in the military. But he tells some damned good stories. And he is frank. I think he is very honest. I may be wrong. But I still accord him that he is honest until I see proof he is not.

I don't presume all of you guys and gals are not honest. I will figure it out given time. Till you give me cause to think you are not honest in what you claim, I believe you. Nothing can go wrong with my life by believing you. But if you do lie to me, i will see you as a liar forever more.

Bank on that.

[gabosaurus]

We need the best and brightest to run our country, and the companies that make it great.
We need the bravest and the sturdiest to defend our country.

I am totally baffled why anyone would confuse the two. If you don't recognize what a Rhodes Scholar is, you have been playing in the mud too long.

If you come from a military background, you recognize the contributions that the military have made to our country.
If you come from an education background, you recognize the contributions that educated people have made to our country.

You might look at a flag or an old uniform and recognize what it means. I can go to a library, gaze upon historical volumes and artifacts, and recognize what they mean.

None of us are above the other. The fact that you served in military makes you honorable. It doesn't make you better than someone who contributed to the economy. Nor does it mean that your shit doesn't stink.

[jimnyc]

Jim, I realize you are emotional about the flag.

Think of the flag as personal property and you won't get too upset when a person burns a flag or spits on it or takes a dump on it.

I look at it a tad differently, our flag....

I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.
I stand watch in America's halls of justice.
I stand side by side with the Maple Leaf on the worlds longest undefended border.
I fly majestically over institutions of learning.
I stand guard with power in the world.
Look up and see me.

I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.
I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.

When I am flown with my fellow banners,
my head is a little higher,
my colors a little truer.

I bow to no one! I am the Statue and I stand for Old Glory
I am recognized all over the world.
I am honored - I am saluted.
I am loved - I am revered.
I am respected -- and I am feared.

I have fought in every battle of every war for more then 200 years. I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg, Shiloh and Appomattox. I was there at San Juan Hill, the trenches of France, in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome and the beaches of Normandy, Guam, Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon Vietnam.
Know me,
I was there.

I led my troops, I was dirty, battle worn and tired,
but my soldiers cheered me, And I was proud.
I have been burned, torn and trampled on the streets of countries I have helped set free. It does not hurt,
for I am invincible.

I have been soiled upon, burned, torn and trampled on the streets of my country. And when it's by those whom I've served in battle -- it hurts.
But I shall overcome -- for I am strong.

I have slipped the bonds of Earth and stood watch over the uncharted frontiers of space from my vantage point on the moon.
I have borne silent witness to all
of America's finest hours.

But my finest hours are yet to come.
When I am torn into strips and used as bandages for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldiers,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms of a grieving parent at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,
I am proud.

MY NAME IS OLD GLORY


http://lovethissite.com/oldglory/

[ConHog]

If I wanted to I could point out a fat handful of posts where you solely posted the "poop" smiley. I engaged you here, we had a decent amount of back and forth. I got a tad silly at the end, or humorous. It won't happen again. I'm not going to engage people that are going to whine over a few funny posts, even if at their expense (Lord knows no one else here has fun!).

Whatever, let's just move along then.

Perhaps I over reacted, just as others over react to me.

[Robert A Whit]

We need the best and brightest to run our country, and the companies that make it great.
We need the bravest and the sturdiest to defend our country.

I am totally baffled why anyone would confuse the two. If you don't recognize what a Rhodes Scholar is, you have been playing in the mud too long.

If you come from a military background, you recognize the contributions that the military have made to our country.
If you come from an education background, you recognize the contributions that educated people have made to our country.

You might look at a flag or an old uniform and recognize what it means. I can go to a library, gaze upon historical volumes and artifacts, and recognize what they mean.

None of us are above the other. The fact that you served in military makes you honorable. It doesn't make you better than someone who contributed to the economy. Nor does it mean that your shit doesn't stink.

Most of that I can agree with. I bolded what I don't accept as fact. I looked up when Clinton was president how one qualifies as a Rhodes scholar. I accept that those who get one must be well above average in intelligence. But most people, even the smartest, never go to Cambridge on that scholarship. Their shit smells as bad as the most stupid person's shit smells.

I did reseach into each of this countries wars.
Wars can be classified in a few ways.
1. Self defense
2. Offense
3. Vital to the survival of this country
4. An issue that the current government (current at the time of war) backs in other lands. I mean that any administration can back a particular war that some other administration would shun like the plague.

It is extremely arrogant of this country to attack other nations who did not invade us and pretend the battles were all just. (I believe that if the people of other lands obtain freedom with our army, it is much easier to say it was just than other times)

Then as part of this, I took note of which political party has dragged we taxpayers into their wars.

Some of you may be shocked. But it is a FACT that the bulk of our wars were committed to by Democrats. Yet they chide republicans over their few wars.

A republican holds the record for the most killed in combat. (Lincoln)

What is very strange to me is that same president is among the top presidents according to historians. I believe that the majority of historians are democrats. That is a hunch though.

[Robert A Whit]

I look at it a tad differently, our flag....

I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.
I stand watch in America's halls of justice.
I stand side by side with the Maple Leaf on the worlds longest undefended border.
I fly majestically over institutions of learning.
I stand guard with power in the world.
Look up and see me.

I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.
I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.

When I am flown with my fellow banners,
my head is a little higher,
my colors a little truer.

I bow to no one! I am the Statue and I stand for Old Glory
I am recognized all over the world.
I am honored - I am saluted.
I am loved - I am revered.
I am respected -- and I am feared.

I have fought in every battle of every war for more then 200 years. I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg, Shiloh and Appomattox. I was there at San Juan Hill, the trenches of France, in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome and the beaches of Normandy, Guam, Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon Vietnam.
Know me,
I was there.

I led my troops, I was dirty, battle worn and tired,
but my soldiers cheered me, And I was proud.
I have been burned, torn and trampled on the streets of countries I have helped set free. It does not hurt,
for I am invincible.

I have been soiled upon, burned, torn and trampled on the streets of my country. And when it's by those whom I've served in battle -- it hurts.
But I shall overcome -- for I am strong.

I have slipped the bonds of Earth and stood watch over the uncharted frontiers of space from my vantage point on the moon.
I have borne silent witness to all
of America's finest hours.

But my finest hours are yet to come.
When I am torn into strips and used as bandages for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldiers,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms of a grieving parent at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,
I am proud.

MY NAME IS OLD GLORY


http://lovethissite.com/oldglory/

Jim, I believe every word of that is true. So how do we see personal property rights differently?

[jimnyc]

Jim, I believe every word of that is true. So how do we see personal property rights differently?

Because I believe our Flag should be treated as a long standing, long living 'object'. While one can buy one, or come upon one via other means, that's why we even have ways of disposing of a retired flag. I'm a sentimental fucker, what can I say?

[ConHog]

Because I believe our Flag should be treated as a long standing, long living 'object'. While one can buy one, or come upon one via other means, that's why we even have ways of disposing of a retired flag. I'm a sentimental fucker, what can I say?

Apparently he doesn't understand that we don't honor the flag, we honor what it represents. Which is what makes burning it so disgusting. They are literally destroying what our flag represents.

They have the right to do so of course, but it sickens me.

[Robert A Whit]

Because I believe our Flag should be treated as a long standing, long living 'object'. While one can buy one, or come upon one via other means, that's why we even have ways of disposing of a retired flag. I'm a sentimental fucker, what can I say?

Jim, may we agree that the Flag represents rights?

The right to private property is higher in standing than a piece of cloth.

I, many years ago seem to recall I took more of your view. The worst person in my view is one that in public defaces the flag.

But when one tries to claim as his or her right, the right to what you own as a flag, or my flags, I get more upset they want to remove my right than that they pissed all over the flag.

If we can't defend personal property, at some point that flag may indeed be replaced by some other flag. What then? If they manage to replace our flag with a new one, do you then get upset over the new flag? Maybe they make it as law that the flag with the hammer and sythe of the new empire is a flag you may not shit on or cut to pieces.

You know Jim, first they will force you to use your personal property (your flag) as they see fit. Next they will force you to obey a new flag.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by jimnyc http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=612784#post612784)
Because I believe our Flag should be treated as a long standing, long living 'object'. While one can buy one, or come upon one via other means, that's why we even have ways of disposing of a retired flag. I'm a sentimental fucker, what can I say?




Apparently he doesn't understand that we don't honor the flag, we honor what it represents. Which is what makes burning it so disgusting. They are literally destroying what our flag represents.

They have the right to do so of course, but it sickens me.

By removing the condition word HE, the rest represents your view but i am not certain it represents Jim's view.

We are discussing not what it represents, but the actual flag owned by a free human being.

I am disgusted to the max when that flag is defaced or shit on.

But private property is one of the ultimate rights we value the most.

My private property extends to my income. I see no reason for those turds in DC to remove my private property so they can misuse the funds. Let me misuse my own funds. But when they shit on me, I feel like I am the Flag.

[ConHog]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png




By removing the condition word HE, the rest represents your view but i am not certain it represents Jim's view.

We are discussing not what it represents, but the actual flag owned by a free human being.

I am disgusted to the max when that flag is defaced or shit on.

But private property is one of the ultimate rights we value the most.

My private property extends to my income. I see no reason for those turds in DC to remove my private property so they can misuse the funds. Let me misuse my own funds. But when they shit on me, I feel like I am the Flag.


By he I meant you not jim.

[Voted4Reagan]

Thread topic is--Stolen Valor, now I kindly suggest that you stop attempting to derail this thread.
Nobody's name has been brought up in this thread.
Stop with the derailing, you have done a lot of that lately. Don't like the thread , I suggest that you ignore it .
Your name wasn't mentioned here.. -Tyr

Put him on IGNORE Tyr....

You wont regret it... Promise

[Syrenn]

interesting thread.

This was my more or less "invitation" link to the site.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

interesting thread.

This was my more or less "invitation" link to the site.

Nice that you could make it. :beer:

[Robert A Whit]

Because I believe our Flag should be treated as a long standing, long living 'object'. While one can buy one, or come upon one via other means, that's why we even have ways of disposing of a retired flag. I'm a sentimental fucker, what can I say?

Oh crist. I thought this was over and done with.

Jim, did I mention it is cloth. Did I mention it is a person's private property? Did I mention that it started as thread that was dyed?

If one rips off the flag that hangs say on the Capitol in DC and spits on it, defaces it and burns it, he did wrong. But that flag was not private property. It was the entire public's property.

But if you have a US Flag and you wish to let your dog use it as the floor of his dog house and the dog shits on the flag, the reason you can do that is it belongs to you. Your private property rights are sacred. While the Flag flown by the Government is definitely a symbol of your rights, your rights belong to you and not to the Government. Bear in mind that you did not create/select this particular flag. When you purchased the flag, it was your cash being spent. Your cash represents time you spent earning. All in all, it all is your private property.

Now, do not ever get the idea I am in favor of not respecting the Flag. I do respect it. But I am really respecting your private property rights even more. The flag can change. During my life I have seen the flag change two times. But your rights so far as I am concerned should not change.

Note to explain.

As a boy, the flag had but 48 stars. We would never fly that flag today. Then it got 49 stars. Same thing, do not use that flag. We now have 50 stars.

[jimnyc]

Oh crist. I thought this was over and done with.

So did I, that post was from a month ago, geezer :poke:

[Robert A Whit]

So did I, that post was from a month ago, geezer :poke:

I have been experimenting with your tools and by golly look what the cat drug in. I found Syrenn mentioned by Conhog and I thought it is him that drug this back for more comment.

I have to report that I have figured out some of the board tools. no more *** marks needed.

Hey Jim, it might shock you but to a lot of people, you are also a geezer. LMAO:clap:

[jimnyc]

I have been experimenting with your tools and by golly look what the cat drug in. I found Syrenn mentioned by Conhog and I thought it is him that drug this back for more comment.

I have to report that I have figured out some of the board tools. no more *** marks needed.

Hey Jim, it might shock you but to a lot of people, you are also a geezer. LMAO:clap:

I know, I was talking to a friend about that earlier. I have to move books and such a little further away from my face at times to read. I have noticed a difference in my vision while driving. My nighttime vision is horrible, and 3x worse if it's raining at night. My bones hurt in the morning. And my brain is awfully fried, but that's half hitting the mid-life and half past drug use! :coffee:

[Syrenn]

I know, I was talking to a friend about that earlier. I have to move books and such a little further away from my face at times to read. I have noticed a difference in my vision while driving. My nighttime vision is horrible, and 3x worse if it's raining at night. My bones hurt in the morning. And my brain is awfully fried, but that's half hitting the mid-life and half past drug use! :coffee:



and here you said you didnt need nitroglycerine!!!! :laugh:

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jimnyc http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=620499#post620499)
I know, I was talking to a friend about that earlier. I have to move books and such a little further away from my face at times to read. I have noticed a difference in my vision while driving. My nighttime vision is horrible, and 3x worse if it's raining at night. My bones hurt in the morning. And my brain is awfully fried, but that's half hitting the mid-life and half past drug use! :coffee:






Syrenn says: and here you said you didnt need nitroglycerine!!!! :laugh:

I tell you, when I was his age, it was hard for days and days. Besides that I never was sick. LMAO

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I know, I was talking to a friend about that earlier. I have to move books and such a little further away from my face at times to read. I have noticed a difference in my vision while driving. My nighttime vision is horrible, and 3x worse if it's raining at night. My bones hurt in the morning. And my brain is awfully fried, but that's half hitting the mid-life and half past drug use! :coffee:

A sure sign that you have officially joined the old geezer class amigo.
Enjoy and then you die.;)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jimnyc http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=620499#post620499)
I know, I was talking to a friend about that earlier. I have to move books and such a little further away from my face at times to read. I have noticed a difference in my vision while driving. My nighttime vision is horrible, and 3x worse if it's raining at night. My bones hurt in the morning. And my brain is awfully fried, but that's half hitting the mid-life and half past drug use! :coffee:







I tell you, when I was his age, it was hard for days and days. Besides that I never was sick. LMAO

^^^^^^^^^^ Are you talking about Math again Robert? :laugh:

[Robert A Whit]

^^^^^^^^^^ Are you talking about Math again Robert? :laugh:

Uh huhhh. Yezzir. Unredoubately. Wid no doubt.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Uh huhhh. Yezzir. Unredoubately. Wid no doubt.


Here is a math question.

Frog falls into a well 30 feet deep. Every time the frog jumps he leaps 3 feet and falls back 2 feet. What is the number of jumps until he clears the well at the top?
Anybody?-Tyr

[logroller]

Here is a math question.

Frog falls into a well 30 feet deep. Every time the frog jumps he leaps 3 feet and falls back 2 feet. What is the number of jumps until he clears the well at the top?
Anybody?-Tyr
this should have gone in the "how smart are you" thread. A far better question than the one there IMO.
After 27 jumps the frog will come to rest three feet from the top of the well; if the frog can get just one toe beyond three feet on the 28th jump, it'll clear the well..otherwise, it'll fall back to within two feet of the top and clear it on the 29th jump.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

this should have gone in the "how smart are you" thread. A far better question than the one there IMO.
After 27 jumps the frog will come to rest three feet from the top of the well; if the frog can get just one toe beyond three feet on the 28th jump, it'll clear the well..otherwise, it'll fall back to within two feet of the top and clear it on the 29th jump.

Give that man a cigar, 29th jump is correct . When I was 8 years old my dad told me he would buy me a soda and a candy bar if I got it correct using my head with no writing on paper, 15 seconds later I told him 29th jump the frog clears the well. Later that day we went to the store and I got my Orange Crush soda and a Hollywood candy bar .

[Robert A Whit]

Give that man a cigar, 29th jump is correct . When I was 8 years old my dad told me he would buy me a soda and a candy bar if I got it correct using my head with no writing on paper, 15 seconds later I told him 29th jump the frog clears the well. Later that day we went to the store and I got my Orange Crush soda and a Hollywood candy bar .

Do any of you remember those candy bars called Jumbo? They came with an orange wrapper and were chocolate fudge.

God I used to eat those things each time i had 5 cents to spare.

Mom and dad owned a small neighborhood food store for close to 2 years. Imagine all the soda pop and candy I had at my disposal? LMAO

I ate some of the best school lunches packed at that store too. Any kind of lunch meat and cheese I wanted.

Something else only about fishing.

A guy pulls into the store parking lot one warm day and told me to come see the fish he caught.

I think it probably was a bass.

Anyway, this fish has to be 3 feet long.

I was telling some kid about his fish and he scoffed. I told him to check with the guy with the pickup and that damned guy said the fish was about one foot long. I was stunned. Most of these guys say it was bigger but this clown downplayed it for some very odd reason.