Jafar said this could never happen in Islamic courts...

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/17/wife-christian-pastor-on-edge-as-husband-faces-hanging-judge-in-iranian-court/


Naghmeh Abedini has been told by attorneys for her husband, Saeed, to expect the worst at Monday's trial, where the 32-year-old husband and father faces the capital charge of compromising national security. Supporters believe the charges are directly related to Abedini’s work nearly a decade ago starting a house church movement in Iran, and the judge he'll face, Abbas Pir-Abassi, is infamous for sending defendants to the gallows.




The specific allegations against Abedini have not been made public, but supporters say it is almost certainly related to his conversion from Islam to Christianity back in 2000 and his subsequent efforts to spread the gospel. Even Abedini does not know the charges against him, according to a letter he recently was able to sneak out of the prison, which is known for holding intellectuals and political prisoners.



Jafar claimed being part of Islam had to be voluntary, and that voluntarily leaving it was ok and never punished.

I guess Jafar lied.

[aboutime]

Let's ask jafar to explain what, and WHO is making those demands to release the Hostages in trade for the One eyed Idiot being held in American prison with another Idiot Terrorist?....
jafar probably hopes....will be used as a bargaining chip.

What do you want to tell us now jafar?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/17/wife-christian-pastor-on-edge-as-husband-faces-hanging-judge-in-iranian-court/







[/COLOR][/LEFT]
Jafar claimed being part of Islam had to be voluntary, and that voluntarily leaving it was ok and never punished.

I guess Jafar lied.

Jafar will say those that will sentence the pastor to death are not real muslims! That is if he is not released and does get the death penalty.-Tyr

[aboutime]

Jafar will say those that will sentence the pastor to death are not real muslims! That is if he is not released and does get the death penalty.-Tyr


Tyr. We must always remember how jafar attempts to act, speak, and even become Obama-like to the point that Intentional Non-disclosure of facts should never be confused with the Liberal Mind-set of Lies...for the sake of saving face.

[ConHog]

Tyr. We must always remember how jafar attempts to act, speak, and even become Obama-like to the point that Intentional Non-disclosure of facts should never be confused with the Liberal Mind-set of Lies...for the sake of saving face.

^ what the hell does that gibberish even mean? Anyone?

[jafar00]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/17/wife-christian-pastor-on-edge-as-husband-faces-hanging-judge-in-iranian-court/







[/COLOR][/LEFT]
Jafar claimed being part of Islam had to be voluntary, and that voluntarily leaving it was ok and never punished.

I guess Jafar lied.

I usually have you on ignore, but since you targeted me personally I must answer.

1) Iran's Shia'ism is different to Islam so I don't know why you are asking me about this
2) According to the story he was warned about evangelism which is illegal in Iran. If he decided to flout the law as many Christians do when they travel abroad and spread their religion where it is illegal, he has no leg to stand on in the court of that country.
3) I am not a liar.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I usually have you on ignore, but since you targeted me personally I must answer.

1) Iran's Shia'ism is different to Islam so I don't know why you are asking me about this
This dumb ass statement has been shown to be incorrect multiple times. Here... again...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam

Shia Islam (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): شيعة‎, Shīʿah) is the second largest denomination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches) of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam).


2) According to the story he was warned about evangelism which is illegal in Iran. If he decided to flout the law as many Christians do when they travel abroad and spread their religion where it is illegal, he has no leg to stand on in the court of that country.
And according to the story, he wasn't evangelizing, he was on a humanitarian mission which the government had previously said they'd be okay with. They arrested him anyway.


3) I am not a liar.
You are both stupid, AND a liar.




My comments in RED above.

In regards to #1, this guy says your a liar too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i56JhvEwH3s

[jafar00]

I don't need to take advice about my religion from a non Muslim who hates Islam in the first place.

The Shia are outside of Islam for many reasons which I have no need to discuss with someone who will reject my reasoning instantly and then resort to insults.

[tailfins]

I don't need to take advice about my religion from a non Muslim who hates Islam in the first place.

The Shia are outside of Islam for many reasons which I have no need to discuss with someone who will reject my reasoning instantly and then resort to insults.

In contrast to others on this board, to me your defining characteristic is being a socialist. Which is a REALLY strange characteristic for a businessman.

[aboutime]

Anyone who intentionally has to use the IGNORE function to protect their little, childish feelings only proves that COWARDS would rather hide, than be confronted with answering questions HONESTLY.

[jimnyc]

Anyone who intentionally has to use the IGNORE function to protect their little, childish feelings only proves that COWARDS would rather hide, than be confronted with answering questions HONESTLY.

No offense, but if others followed his lead I think the board would be much more pleasant at times. If using the feature will kill only 40% of the fighting, we would all be much better off for it.

[aboutime]

No offense, but if others followed his lead I think the board would be much more pleasant at times. If using the feature will kill only 40% of the fighting, we would all be much better off for it.


jimnyc. No offense taken. This is your forum. And....this is where I, and other members offer our OPINIONS. That (above) was my opinion.

[fj1200]

In contrast to others on this board, to me your defining characteristic is being a socialist. Which is a REALLY strange characteristic for a businessman.

I would say that might depend on how it's carried out. Some firms might love to get the responsibility for healthcare off their books or an entrepreneur go on a business venture without having to worry about being covered.

[ConHog]

I would say that might depend on how it's carried out. Some firms might love to get the responsibility for healthcare off their books or an entrepreneur go on a business venture without having to worry about being covered.

I'm pretty sure some firms would be okay with the government entirely taking over an industry also. As long as they benefited.


BUT, I have to wonder what being Musim has to do with being a socialist. I mean are capitalists not allowed in the Mosque?

[fj1200]

I'm pretty sure some firms would be okay with the government entirely taking over an industry also. As long as they benefited.


BUT, I have to wonder what being Musim has to do with being a socialist. I mean are capitalists not allowed in the Mosque?

Absolutely nothing. Tailfins went off the plantation.

[ConHog]

Absolutely nothing. Tailfins went off the plantation.

Good, it wasn't just me.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I don't need to take advice about my religion from a non Muslim who hates Islam in the first place.

The Shia are outside of Islam for many reasons which I have no need to discuss with someone who will reject my reasoning instantly and then resort to insults.

Translation: If someone doesn't agree with jahil, they are simply wrong.

I have shown multiple sources from Islam that disagree with your flawed idea that Shia is not part of Islam. The fact you choose to ignore them is telling.




http://insideislam.wisc.edu/2009/09/sunni-shia-or-just-muslim/


Since my family was of Sunni background, I was raised in that tradition. However, I was never taught to hate or harbor ill will towards the Shia. They were Muslims who shared much with Sunnis but had certain religious doctrines that we just agreed to disagree about.


Many people do not realize that the divide between Sunni and Shia (the two largest branches of Islam with several other groups resulting from this initial divide) was sparked initially by a political disagreement over who would succeed the Prophet Muhammad as the leader of the new Muslim community. It was not a fundamental rift in religious ideology. Those who were later to be called the Sunnis believed that he did not designate a successor and left it to the community to decide; while those who would later be called the Shia believed that Ali, the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet, was chosen by the Prophet to succeed him. Early on, though, there weren’t any doctrinal differences. Over time, this split developed and eventually there arose some points of religious disagreement.


Sunnis and Shia share the core beliefs of Islam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Lt5_WDx7w): the belief in the absolute oneness of God, the Prophet Muhammad, the pillars of Islam, and the Qur’an.


the Shia will look to the Imams, descendants of the Prophet, for guidance while Sunnis look to the scholars, the Ulama, without regard to lineage.



One example of an attempt towards unity is the Amman Message (http://ammanmessage.com/), in which scholars from both groups came together in 2004 to write a resolution that stated that followers of the four Sunni schools of thought and the two Shia schools are all Muslims.


They specifically recognized the validity of all 8 Mathhabs (legal schools) of Sunni, Shi'a and Ibadhi Islam; of traditional Islamic Theology (Ash'arism); of Islamic Mysticism (Sufism), and of true Salafi thought, and came to a precise definition of who is a Muslim.

[ConHog]

Translation: If someone doesn't agree with jahil, they are simply wrong.

I have shown multiple sources from Islam that disagree with your flawed idea that Shia is not part of Islam. The fact you choose to ignore them is telling.




http://insideislam.wisc.edu/2009/09/sunni-shia-or-just-muslim/

Isn't Jafar a Sunni?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Isn't Jafar a Sunni?

I believe so. And I have posted multiple Sunni based opinions that Shia IS indeed part of Islam. Jahil ignores them because it doesn't fit his world view.

[ConHog]

I believe so. And I have posted multiple Sunni based opinions that Shia IS indeed part of Islam. Jahil ignores them because it doesn't fit his world view.

because SOME Sunni's are more strict in their interpretation than others.

It's really no different than say a Christian argument about whether musical accompaniment is okay in church. Some sects say it is, some sects say it isn't. Some of those who say it isn't don't believe you're a real Christian if you think it's okay.


Either way , there is no factual answer. So hammering a guy claiming there is is in fact ridiculous.

I swear some of you REALLY need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=609374#post609374)

I believe so. And I have posted multiple Sunni based opinions that Shia IS indeed part of Islam. Jahil ignores them because it doesn't fit his world view.

because SOME Sunni's are more strict in their interpretation than others.

It's really no different than say a Christian argument about whether musical accompaniment is okay in church. Some sects say it is, some sects say it isn't. Some of those who say it isn't don't believe you're a real Christian if you think it's okay.


Either way , there is no factual answer. So hammering a guy claiming there is is in fact ridiculous.

I swear some of you REALLY need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.

Your analogy is flawed.

If Roman Catholics said Presbyterians were not really Christians because they have different core beliefs, THAT would be the same as Jahil saying Shia are not really Islam because they have different core beliefs.

[Little-Acorn]

Jafar said this....


Why are so many threads in this forum, about jafar?

You're supposed to ignore trolls, not publicize them.

.

[ConHog]

Your analogy is flawed.

If Roman Catholics said Presbyterians were not really Christians because they have different core beliefs, THAT would be the same as Jahil saying Shia are not really Islam because they have different core beliefs.

Okay, either way my point stands. Jafar may actually believe that Shia aren't Muslims, MANY Sunnis do, and some don't look at it that way.

[tailfins]

I'm pretty sure some firms would be okay with the government entirely taking over an industry also. As long as they benefited.


BUT, I have to wonder what being Musim has to do with being a socialist. I mean are capitalists not allowed in the Mosque?

I have always thought of Islam as a conservative religion. Seeing one of them side with socialism (an Athiest philosophy) is puzzling.

[ConHog]

I have always thought of Islam as a conservative religion. Seeing one of them side with socialism (an Athiest philosophy) is puzzling.

do not confuse backwards with conservative my friend. :coffee:

[jafar00]

I'm pretty sure some firms would be okay with the government entirely taking over an industry also. As long as they benefited.


BUT, I have to wonder what being Musim has to do with being a socialist. I mean are capitalists not allowed in the Mosque?

Capitalism is ok in Islam. There are rules for doing business in a Halal way. Where your profits come from, how they are used etc....

Socialism is compatible with Islam especially for the fact that the poor are looked after with Zakat (charity) the way the Qur'aan condemns those who hoard their wealth instead of spending it in way that benefits the community as a whole. However becoming much richer than others is fine. You just need to spend some of it to help those who are less fortunate along the way.


Isn't Jafar a Sunni?

Yes.


Jafar said this....


Why are so many threads in this forum, about jafar?

You're supposed to ignore trolls, not publicize them.

.

I dunno. They love me I guess. The ones I have on ignore are there because of the way they just insult me and follow me around just to insult me because I am the token Muslim around here. And they HATE everything Islam. I'm not here to be insulted. I'm here to discuss things in a friendly way.

This is just a forum after all.

[tailfins]

Capitalism is ok in Islam. There are rules for doing business in a Halal way. Where your profits come from, how they are used etc....

Socialism is compatible with Islam especially for the fact that the poor are looked after with Zakat (charity) the way the Qur'aan condemns those who hoard their wealth instead of spending it in way that benefits the community as a whole. However becoming much richer than others is fine. You just need to spend some of it to help those who are less fortunate along the way.

I don't see how politically aligning with an Atheist ideology (Socialism) and secularists can be compatible with Islam. I have been slow to condemn Islam because I thought it was somewhat compatible with Christian conservatism. Perhaps I was mistaken.

[jafar00]

I don't see how politically aligning with an Atheist ideology (Socialism) and secularists can be compatible with Islam. I have been slow to condemn Islam because I thought it was somewhat compatible with Christian conservatism. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I can't see how looking after the poor can be frowned upon. Surely that is compatible with Christian values?

[Marcus Aurelius]

I can't see how looking after the poor can be frowned upon. Surely that is compatible with Christian values?

It's the part where government wants to FORCE us to look after the poor that is frowned upon, Jahil. It should be our choice, not imposed from on high (federal government).

[tailfins]

It's the part where government wants to FORCE us to look after the poor that is frowned upon, Jahil. It should be our choice, not imposed from on high (federal government).

Furthermore you are putting the state into God's and the church's proper role. The state becomes God. Collectivist ideology clearly states that it is Atheist as well.

[bingster]

Your analogy is flawed.

If Roman Catholics said Presbyterians were not really Christians because they have different core beliefs, THAT would be the same as Jahil saying Shia are not really Islam because they have different core beliefs.

Why can't we just agree that the government of Iran is extreme and not cast a pall over Islam?

[bingster]

It's the part where government wants to FORCE us to look after the poor that is frowned upon, Jahil. It should be our choice, not imposed from on high (federal government).

Even when the government is voted on and elected? Even when all of the polls are in favor? Yes, I realize this isn't the case in Iran, but I detected another Obama slam.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Even when the government is voted on and elected? Even when all of the polls are in favor? Yes, I realize this isn't the case in Iran, but I detected another Obama slam.

Just because we elect someone, doesn't mean that we have to be stuck with any law or rule they decide is 'best for society'. We still have the right to vote them out if we don't like what they are doing or work against a particular goal of theirs if we so choose to do so.

As for 'all the polls', that is simply not the case. Every single poll, ever taken, indicates we should force people through taxation to 'help the poor'? List them.

You can 'detect' anything you like. Doesn't make you right. I don't care WHO is in office, what party is in control. I would equally resent Obama, Romney (whom I supported), Bush, Clinton, the Pope, whomever, if they tried to force me through taxation to do something I feel should be a choice.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Why can't we just agree that the government of Iran is extreme and not cast a pall over Islam?

Jahil is the one casting a pall over Islam, by claiming that people who make up almost 20% of it's membership, really are not members, even though the majority of Islam (as posted and sourced many times) disagrees with him.

[bingster]

Jahil is the one casting a pall over Islam, by claiming that people who make up almost 20% of it's membership, really are not members, even though the majority of Islam (as posted and sourced many times) disagrees with him.

A lot of Christians don't think Mormons are Christian. I agree with you, that Shia is classified as Muslim and everything you find on-line will support that. But ask a Shiite what they think of a Sunni.

[ConHog]

A lot of Christians don't think Mormons are Christian. I agree with you, that Shia is classified as Muslim and everything you find on-line will support that. But ask a Shiite what they think of a Sunni.

Generally speaking they think that the other has misinterpreted the word's of the Prophet and therefor they are not TRUE Muslims.

It goes deeper than that , but that's the gist of it, they hate each other.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Why can't we just agree that the government of Iran is extreme and not cast a pall over Islam?

Because the government of Iran, pay attention, is Islam!!!!!! Good grief are you that damn dense!??--Tyr

[ConHog]

Because the government of Iran, pay attention, is Islam!!!!!! Good grief are you that damn dense!??--Tyr

I did not realize that the government of Iran spoke for all of Islam. Interesting..............

[Marcus Aurelius]

A lot of Christians don't think Mormons are Christian. I agree with you, that Shia is classified as Muslim and everything you find on-line will support that. But ask a Shiite what they think of a Sunni.

I have two Shia friends (thus my interest in this topic). They have a difference of doctrinal opinion with Sunni's regarding Islam, but they consider them part of Islam.

[bingster]

I have two Shia friends (thus my interest in this topic). They have a difference of doctrinal opinion with Sunni's regarding Islam, but they consider them part of Islam.

I assume your two friends are sensible. Are all members of Islam sensible?