Looks like Gen. Schwartzkopf is going to room temperature state

[Robert A Whit]

He died. I have his book too. Plan to read it one of these days.

An excellent book on Desert Storm is by General Fred Franks. An outstanding book.

[aboutime]

How disrespectful to the man, and his family could you get?

I met the General by accident in Saudi Arabia in 1991.

He and General Powell were two of the greatest, contemporary Military Leaders we have had since the 2nd World War.

I salute him, and our Nation should be saluting, and honoring his passing. Not making snide remarks.

[jimnyc]

How disrespectful to the man, and his family could you get?

I met the General by accident in Saudi Arabia in 1991.

He and General Powell were two of the greatest, contemporary Military Leaders we have had since the 2nd World War.

I salute him, and our Nation should be saluting, and honoring his passing. Not making snide remarks.

I had started a thread just a few minutes before him. http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?38421-Gen-Norman-Schwarzkopf-has-passed-away

I'm glad that my thread is separate, and titled differently. I always admired the man and he gave an awful lot back to his country.

[Robert A Whit]

How disrespectful to the man, and his family could you get?

I met the General by accident in Saudi Arabia in 1991.

He and General Powell were two of the greatest, contemporary Military Leaders we have had since the 2nd World War.

I salute him, and our Nation should be saluting, and honoring his passing. Not making snide remarks.

I realize you are just fucking around again.

My comment reflects the way Gen. Swartzkopf hogged all the credit and trashed Gen. Fred Franks. Franks commanded my former Army unit and did one hell of a good job.

Or course while Fred was out in the fight, Schwarzkopf was back at home base enjoying cocktails and entertaining reporters.

Oh did I mention that I don't give a fat shit who you met?

[Robert A Whit]

I had started a thread just a few minutes before him. http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?38421-Gen-Norman-Schwarzkopf-has-passed-away

I'm glad that my thread is separate, and titled differently. I always admired the man and he gave an awful lot back to his country.


Just as you had no idea I was starting a thread, I had no idea you did until I was done.

Who read Gen. Fred Franks fine book on that war?

"Into the Storm" and Tom Clancy / Fred Franks wrote the book.

Read it then tell me how good Swarzkopf is.

[Kathianne]

I can't say that I've read the book, but your posts certainly peaked my curiosity, so I went looking:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj98/sum98/waysum98.html


Into the Storm: A Review Essay MAJ J. P. HUNERWADEL, USAF


Popular author Tom Clancy created the “technothriller” genre almost single-handedly. His novels sell phenomenally well because they are concise, tightly plotted, and filled with technical details and jargon that impart an air of plausibility. Clancy admits to being fascinated with the technical details that fill his books, and the general reading public trusts his command of them. In the last few years, he has capitalized on this trust by publishing a series of nonfiction books that explain, often in excruciating detail, how various real-world military units or systems operate. These books have been valuable to the military by helping popularize, even glamorize, American war fighters and their capabilities.


In a recent book, however, Clancy seems to aim at a deeper understanding of military matters. Into the Storm,1 coauthored by retired Army general Fred Franks Jr., is a great deal more ambitious than Clancy’s previous efforts, which were narrowly focused and acronym-intensive. The book purports to be a “study in command,” part one of a four-volume study “of how leaders learn and grow.” If Clancy indeed intended a study of such weighty matters, he could have chosen better material. What his book in fact seems to be is a high-profile riposte to his coauthor’s critics. Clancy is clearly out of his depth here and should have recognized Franks as a poor subject for a study of inspired field command.

His coauthor is the same General Franks who led US Central Command’s VII Corps in Operation Desert Storm. Franks became embroiled in controversy during and after the war, accused by critics of not moving aggressively enough toward his—and the entire ground campaign’s—most important objective: destruction of the Iraqi Republican Guard. The theater commander, Gen H. Norman Schwarzkopf, had identified the Guard as the campaign’s most important operational center of gravity—the nexus of Saddam Hussein’s power. He assigned Franks’s heavy corps the job of destroying the Guard while the Marines on his right pinned Iraqi regular units in Kuwait and the XVIII Airborne Corps on his left maneuvered to cut off any Iraqi retreat. Franks’s corps failed in its most important task, and much has been written since the war trying to explain why that happened.


Into the Storm is Franks’s attempt to exculpate himself. One of his harshest critics has been General Schwarzkopf, who blamed Franks’s slowness and indecisiveness for the failure. Franks seems to be using Clancy’s name to fire back at Schwarzkopf, whose best-selling memoir, It Doesn’t Take a Hero,2 recounts the accusations. Clancy is apparently unaware of all this, preferring to get lost in the nuts and bolts of corps operations. He lets Franks recount the war himself in the book’s final three hundred pages—in numbing detail.

...


In fairness to Franks, he was not the only ground commander with this perspective. Most of them seemed to fight the war as if they were wearing blinders—as if nothing existed to either side or even in front of them beyond a certain range. What makes Into the Storm valuable is that this perspective comes through more clearly than in other writings. Airmen must understand that the nature and complexity of ground commanders’ tasks bind them to this limited perspective of war. Their focus must be tactical; as airmen, we must have a wider view.


What Franks and the other ground commanders lacked—and what Schwarzkopf possessed—was a truly joint vision of what the forces arrayed in the Gulf could do. Franks moved up strictly through Army channels to the pinnacle of field duty—command of a corps. Schwarzkopf moved to theater command from a variety of joint staff jobs. Some Army circles resented him for achieving “CINCdom” without having paid some Army dues. Franks is too gentlemanly to play to these notions, but something of the same attitude comes through between the lines in his and Clancy’s book.


It was precisely Schwarzkopf’s broader vision that made him the right man for the time and place. His joint experience gave him the necessary background to understand a type of warfare more ambitious than the one envisioned by his ground and air commanders. Schwarzkopf’s insistence on an air campaign with an operational and strategic focus extended the concepts of blitzkriegto the entire enemy system and achieved Desert Storm’s objectives.


Into the Storm’s biggest lesson, one that has been taught several times throughout military history, is for all war fighters. Franks was brilliant when building or training a force for battle. As head of the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command, he created several innovative “advanced war-fighter experiments” designed to move the Army forward intellectually. He was instrumental in remotivating the post-Vietnam European Army. Franks was also highly regarded by the troops he led. His careful, deliberate manner and his intellectual depth made him nearly the perfect peacetime general. On the field of battle, however, his innate caution took over. He missed great opportunities to dislocate and exploit the enemy because he was too focused on what the enemy might do to him.


Ultimately, Franks’s battle against the Republican Guard looked a lot like the battle of Antietam: the enemy conceded the field, losing the tactical battle—but the victor missed a larger opportunity. Antietam helped accomplish some political goals, but it could have shortened the Civil War by years. Similarly, destruction of the Guard might have accomplished the coalition’s second-order goal: the overthrow of Hussein’s regime. Schwarzkopf’s criticisms of Franks seem exactly in this context. Schwarzkopf stood in relation to Franks much as Abraham Lincoln stood in relation to Union general George McClellan—prodding and cajoling him into action. Both cases provide a valuable lesson: when cautious commanders focus more on what the enemy can do to them than on what they can do to the enemy, they will not win. General Franks did not lose his fight, but he certainly did not win it either. All of Tom Clancy’s writing skill and all of General Franks’s exculpatory detail cannot hide that fact.

[jimnyc]

Just as you had no idea I was starting a thread, I had no idea you did until I was done.

Who read Gen. Fred Franks fine book on that war?

"Into the Storm" and Tom Clancy / Fred Franks wrote the book.

Read it then tell me how good Swarzkopf is.

The man was a decorated vet from vietnam. He also went on to become a 4 star general. Now he just passed away. I think he served his country for MANY years, and admirably and respectfully so. At the very minimum, he has earned the right to not be disrespected prior to even being buried.

He's a hero and a man who dedicated a greater portion of his life to serving our country. He's got my gratitude and respect, regardless of what a book states.

[jimnyc]

A very small glimpse into the man he was, and why I call him a hero:


In Vietnam in March 1970, Schwarzkopf was involved in rescuing men of his battalion from a minefield.[4] He had received word that men under his command had encountered a minefield on the notorious Batangan Peninsula, and rushed to the scene in his helicopter, as was his custom while a battalion commander, in order to make his helicopter available. He found several soldiers still trapped in the minefield. Schwarzkopf urged them to retrace their steps slowly. Still, one man tripped a mine and was severely wounded but remained conscious. As the wounded man flailed in agony, the soldiers around him feared that he would set off another mine. Schwarzkopf, also wounded by the explosion, crawled across the minefield to the wounded man and held him down (using a "pinning" technique from his wrestling days at West Point) so another could splint his shattered leg. One soldier stepped away to break a branch from a nearby tree to make the splint. In doing so, he too hit a mine, which killed him and the two men closest to him, and blew an arm and a leg off Schwarzkopf's artillery liaison officer. Eventually, Schwarzkopf led his surviving men to safety, by ordering the division engineers to mark the locations of the mines with shaving cream. (Some of the mines were of French manufacture and dated back to the Indochina conflict of the 1950s; others were brought by Japanese forces in World War II). Schwarzkopf says in his autobiography It Doesn't Take a Hero that this incident firmly cemented his reputation as an officer who would risk his life for the soldiers under his command.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Schwarzkopf,_Jr.#Service_in_Vietnam

[jimnyc]

And the awards he has won:

Defense Distinguished Service Medal
Army Distinguished Service Medal
Navy Distinguished Service Medal
Air Force Distinguished Service Medal
Coast Guard Distinguished Service Medal
Silver Star
Defense Superior Service Medal
Legion of Merit
Distinguished Flying Cross
Bronze Star
Purple Heart

[Robert A Whit]

I did not attack Schwarzkopf but by the hits made against me, one could suppose I had.

Actually I stated the obvious about the man. All bodies end up at room temperature unless cooled further so it is no disrespect to admit to a state.

I think that Gen. Fred Franks, also a hero, that lost a leg to a mine when he soldiered in Vietnam, who fought hard to not be retired due to the loss of a leg, and has his dozens of medals too, get shit on by Schowarzkopf.

To defend himself, the entirely factual book was written to demonstrate that Schwarzkopf, sipping cocktails and entertaining brass and the press was wrong.

The actual cause of Franks pause was he needed fuel. And he was managing an army of close to a million men. And fought not only the enemy, but some sand storms.

Franks fought in the war. Franks led from the front. We did not see Gen. Fred Franks, also a 4 star, sipping cocktails while his men fought war.

Look up at what his Corps accomplished.

They killed the bulk of the enemy that Schwartakopf took credit for.

The book review by some Air Force guy, under the rank of General was not fair to Franks.

Bear in mind who let Saddam keep his armed helicopters. That decision fell on Schwartzkopf and none other. For Schwartzkopf to point fingers and whine that Franks was too slow can't be swept aside merely because Schwartzkopf is room temperature.

[Kathianne]

I realize you are just fucking around again.

My comment reflects the way Gen. Swartzkopf hogged all the credit and trashed Gen. Fred Franks. Franks commanded my former Army unit and did one hell of a good job.

Or course while Fred was out in the fight, Schwarzkopf was back at home base enjoying cocktails and entertaining reporters.

Oh did I mention that I don't give a fat shit who you met?

bump

[Robert A Whit]

At times, I have seen one word as a posters post.

That word is bump.

I would appreciate a lot if somebody translated it.

[jimnyc]

I did not attack Schwarzkopf but by the hits made against me, one could suppose I had.

If it were a loved one of yours that you just lost, would it bother you to read someone talking about "room temperature" and what not? I don't think anyone is challenging you about Franks, but rather honoring a decorated vet who became a 4 star general, and served his country for over 3 decades. The awards he won over that time weren't accidental. Just as when Franks time comes, I wouldn't disrespect him either. This isn't about attacks on either, simply the presentation of respect. Even if you don't think he deserves a boat load of respect - that doesn't mean he should be disrespected the day he dies.

[jimnyc]

At times, I have seen one word as a posters post.

That word is bump.

I would appreciate a lot if somebody translated it.

To bring it back to the top, to the forefront, a reminder...

[Robert A Whit]

If it were a loved one of yours that you just lost, would it bother you to read someone talking about "room temperature" and what not? I don't think anyone is challenging you about Franks, but rather honoring a decorated vet who became a 4 star general, and served his country for over 3 decades. The awards he won over that time weren't accidental. Just as when Franks time comes, I wouldn't disrespect him either. This isn't about attacks on either, simply the presentation of respect. Even if you don't think he deserves a boat load of respect - that doesn't mean he should be disrespected the day he dies.

Do you honestly think that merely because Schwartzkopf died that I have to forget what he did to another highly decorated officer? To make whom happy? You?

Well all due respect to you Jim, I don't operate like that. I could have insulted him. All
i did that you object to is state the obvious.

[Robert A Whit]

To bring it back to the top, to the forefront, a reminder...

So, context is important as well. I saw bump but the context made no sense. A reply bump means little even though you tried to explain it. Thanks a lot.

[Kathianne]

Do you honestly think that merely because Schwartzkopf died that I have to forget what he did to another highly decorated officer? To make whom happy? You?

Well all due respect to you Jim, I don't operate like that. I could have insulted him. All
i did that you object to is state the obvious.

A wasted effort to try and make you get it. Sorry to have bothered.

[jimnyc]

Do you honestly think that merely because Schwartzkopf died that I have to forget what he did to another highly decorated officer? To make whom happy? You?

Well all due respect to you Jim, I don't operate like that. I could have insulted him. All
i did that you object to is state the obvious.

Well, I simply think differently is all. You're 100% free to post as you please.

[Robert A Whit]

Those of you who lived a rich life, never having served in the Army, seem to me to not get it.

General Franks commanded 3rd Infantry during Desert Storm. Having read his book, where he got to explain the conditions he fought under and the goals and accomplishments of the men in nis command, I felt pissed that a cocktail drinking prima donna in the same mold as General Mac Arthur took time to shit on a very fine 4 star commander.

Those men that fought in VII corps did not have it easy. They were awesome to be sure, and they whipped up on Saddam like he was a rag doll, but the men and command of that corps that Franks headed did not deserve to be shit on.

Sure, from the luxury suite occupied by Schwartzkopf, he could drink cocktails and toss rocks, but he did not have to be out in the field as a commander. He could watch it all on TV.

I was in 3rd ID and if you don't think I will defend my former unit, just watch.

You know, all I said is that Schwartzkopf was room temperature. I find no insult there at all.

I guess when he attacked my former unit, it did not sit well with me.

He was pissing on a one legged man that actually lost skin in the game fighting for this country.

Why would Franks want to see his command killed?

In his book, Franks goes into a lot of detail on how it is to maneuver a million man army. How in sand storms when you can't see the other units, you are still expected to advance and keep firing. But units in areas with no land marks do encounter our own troops. Suppose to rush it along your son got shot by the unit next to him? Schwartzkopf not once went to the front to lead from the point, He sat around on his ass telling the press how great he was.

[Robert A Whit]

OK, I notice that when men die, some seem to wear wings and be subject to hero worship.

What I did not like about Gen. Schwarzkopf is how he pissed all over my former unit. And it's leader.

Franks was out in the action.

Do any of you realize how hard it was for Franks to keep into touch with the top command?

So to pay honor to Gen. Schwarzkopf, I plan to read his book and get pissed off at him again over his whining about General Franks. Franks was the one legged General and that man in my book is a real soldiers soldier.

[Kathianne]

I can't say that I've read the book, but your posts certainly peaked my curiosity, so I went looking:

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj98/sum98/waysum98.html

*bump*

[jimnyc]

RIP, General Schwarzkopf, you were a true American Hero and will be remembered as such. No one can take away your bravery and awards.

[Robert A Whit]

Well, I simply think differently is all. You're 100% free to post as you please.


Jim, there is still hope for you as I see this.

About the time you were starting kindergarten, I thought like you think.

It is evolved thinking.

Stick with it. It probably will happen to you too if I have anything to say about it.

When a man sticks my former unit in the eye, he has to live with what he did to the unit and when he dies the unit can still remember.

[Kathianne]

OK, I notice that when men die, some seem to wear wings and be subject to hero worship.

What I did not like about Gen. Schwarzkopf is how he pissed all over my former unit. And it's leader.

Franks was out in the action.

Do any of you realize how hard it was for Franks to keep into touch with the top command?

So to pay honor to Gen. Schwarzkopf, I plan to read his book and get pissed off at him again over his whining about General Franks. Franks was the one legged General and that man in my book is a real soldiers soldier.

Here is what you seem to fail to understand. Franks may have been a hell of a soldier, indeed all seems that he was, he still could have screwed up that one time and was justifiably brought to task for that.

[Kathianne]

Jim, there is still hope for you as I see this.

About the time you were starting kindergarten, I thought like you think.

It is evolved thinking.

Stick with it. It probably will happen to you too if I have anything to say about it.

When a man sticks my former unit in the eye, he has to live with what he did to the unit and when he dies the unit can still remember.

Condescension towards Jimnyc notwithstanding, Here is what you seem to fail to understand. Franks may have been a hell of a soldier, indeed all seems that he was, he still could have screwed up that one time and was justifiably brought to task for that.

[jimnyc]

OK, I notice that when men die, some seem to wear wings and be subject to hero worship.

What I did not like about Gen. Schwarzkopf is how he pissed all over my former unit. And it's leader.

Franks was out in the action.

Do any of you realize how hard it was for Franks to keep into touch with the top command?

So to pay honor to Gen. Schwarzkopf, I plan to read his book and get pissed off at him again over his whining about General Franks. Franks was the one legged General and that man in my book is a real soldiers soldier.

When good men die, we take the time to pay respects. You're free not to, if you please.

[aboutime]

OK, I notice that when men die, some seem to wear wings and be subject to hero worship.

What I did not like about Gen. Schwarzkopf is how he pissed all over my former unit. And it's leader.

Franks was out in the action.

Do any of you realize how hard it was for Franks to keep into touch with the top command?

So to pay honor to Gen. Schwarzkopf, I plan to read his book and get pissed off at him again over his whining about General Franks. Franks was the one legged General and that man in my book is a real soldiers soldier.


Sometimes, civil people say nothing, rather than disrespect others. 4211 I didn't like Richard Nixon. But I never lowered myself to disrespect his family, or his memory because I didn't agree, or like him.
Grow up. Join the adults here...For once.

[Robert A Whit]

Reading his book.

I plan to comment more as I move through his book. I was shocked that he admits to kicking his sister out of his home due to her trying to calm him down as they watched a movie. And he was at the time a field grade officer.

[jimnyc]

The man is a hero. Heroism and heroic acts don't disappear. He's EARNED his medals, part of which is in direct relation to his heroism. No amount of ranting can take that away from the man.

[Kathianne]

Reading his book.

I plan to comment more as I move through his book. I was shocked that he admits to kicking his sister out of his home due to her trying to calm him down as they watched a movie. And he was at the time a field grade officer.

You mean you'll cherry pick certain quotes or memories. Good luck with that.

[Robert A Whit]

Condescension towards Jimnyc notwithstanding, Here is what you seem to fail to understand. Franks may have been a hell of a soldier, indeed all seems that he was, he still could have screwed up that one time and was justifiably brought to task for that.

What happened is that Scwartzkopf blew it by not knowing the position of the troops. And it was Franks rather than Schwarzkopf that felt the war ended too early and fought for the extension.

It also was Schwarzkopf that allowed Saddam to retain his gun ships used to prevent the Iraqis from having a chance to win their freedom.

Franks made no errors.

One more thing, in print, Norman virtually ended the career of Gen. Franks who actually was in combat.

How many of you realize that Norman had a problem with booze? He admits it in his book.

[Kathianne]

What happened is that Scwartzkopf blew it by not knowing the position of the troops. And it was Franks rather than Schwarzkopf that felt the war ended too early and fought for the extension.

It also was Schwarzkopf that allowed Saddam to retain his gun ships used to prevent the Iraqis from having a chance to win their freedom.

Franks made no errors.

One more thing, in print, Norman virtually ended the career of Gen. Franks who actually was in combat.

How many of you realize that Norman had a problem with booze? He admits it in his book.

Um, hum. Slander and besmirching. Classy for sure.

[Robert A Whit]

You mean you'll cherry pick certain quotes or memories. Good luck with that.

Thanks since you are now being honest.

[jimnyc]

What happened is that Scwartzkopf blew it by not knowing the position of the troops. And it was Franks rather than Schwarzkopf that felt the war ended too early and fought for the extension.

It also was Schwarzkopf that allowed Saddam to retain his gun ships used to prevent the Iraqis from having a chance to win their freedom.

Franks made no errors.

One more thing, in print, Norman virtually ended the career of Gen. Franks who actually was in combat.

How many of you realize that Norman had a problem with booze? He admits it in his book.

Schwarzkopf was in combat as well, as stated.

You just look very petty trying to libel a mans long military career, at the time he has passed away. It's simply a respect thing, as a human being. That you argue that, and disagree with that, is very telling.

[Kathianne]

Thanks since you are now being honest.

This makes no sense. Never fear, we expect that from you.

[Robert A Whit]

Um, hum. Slander and besmirching. Classy for sure.

Hope to use your comment as a teaching moment.

It was done in writing. Ergo not slander, but Libel provided it was done with malicious purpose.

It failed that test.

The other test of being true or false also fails since what I reported is accurate.

I have a hard time forgiving a General that rather than take the blame, passed the buck and besmirched Gen. Franks good name.

A man that actually was at the point of the war, the tip of the spear. Who was with his troops.

While the whiner sat in luxury boozing it up.

[Kathianne]

Hope to use your comment as a teaching moment.

It was done in writing. Ergo not slander, but Libel provided it was done with malicious purpose.

It failed that test.

The other test of being true or false also fails since what I reported is accurate.

I have a hard time forgiving a General that rather than take the blame, passed the buck and besmirched Gen. Franks good name.

A man that actually was at the point of the war, the tip of the spear. Who was with his troops.

While the whiner sat in luxury boozing it up.

You know what? Playing linguistics won't change one damn thing. Not a whit. Not how others perceive your nonsense and wrongheadedness. So enjoy the word play.

[jimnyc]

Hope to use your comment as a teaching moment.

It was done in writing. Ergo not slander, but Libel provided it was done with malicious purpose.

It failed that test.

The other test of being true or false also fails since what I reported is accurate.

I have a hard time forgiving a General that rather than take the blame, passed the buck and besmirched Gen. Franks good name.

A man that actually was at the point of the war, the tip of the spear. Who was with his troops.

While the whiner sat in luxury boozing it up.

Your boring rants may pass legal muster, but lose on common decency and respect. Personally, I would rather get in trouble with the law than lose the other 2. But hey, that's just me.

[Robert A Whit]

Um, hum. Slander and besmirching. Classy for sure.


This makes no sense. Never fear, we expect that from you.

Perhaps when I said you were being honest you got confused??

[Robert A Whit]

Your boring rants may pass legal muster, but lose on common decency and respect. Personally, I would rather get in trouble with the law than lose the other 2. But hey, that's just me.

Jim

By attacking me, you are making a serious mistake.

I don't mind you trying to make your case for Norman but I am dealing with facts.

Nobody attacked you, yet.

Don't deny you attacked me since you made it not about the topic, but your personal view about one thing. The poster and how you don't respect honest arguments.

[aboutime]

All of the whining we have heard from Robert about the General, and Roberts division is like blaming ALL B-29 Pilots of the Second World War for acting like the ENOLA GAY the plane that dropped the first Nuke on Hiroshima.

Of course. In a perfect world...where Robert seems to pretend to be. If you, or anyone else ever said anything bad about the ARMY in general. You are now facing the ROBERT firing squad.

[Robert A Whit]

You know what? Playing linguistics won't change one damn thing. Not a whit. Not how others perceive your nonsense and wrongheadedness. So enjoy the word play.


Kathianne

You have this rather odd idea that you're supposed to post to attack me. Tell me. When I spoke of my admiration for General Fred Franks (not Tommy Franks who became CENTCOM CO later on), did I say your name or did I attack you?

No, I had not.

Suddenly I became the target. And you don't speak for anybody but yourself.

Why must you post in a way seeking trouble?

You pull this shit at least weekly.

[Robert A Whit]

All of the whining we have heard from Robert about the General, and Roberts division is like blaming ALL B-29 Pilots of the Second World War for acting like the ENOLA GAY the plane that dropped the first Nuke on Hiroshima.

Of course. In a perfect world...where Robert seems to pretend to be. If you, or anyone else ever said anything bad about the ARMY in general. You are now facing the ROBERT firing squad.


Ahh, you are just farting around again. I expect your form of attack.

[Robert A Whit]

All of the whining we have heard from Robert about the General, and Roberts division is like blaming ALL B-29 Pilots of the Second World War for acting like the ENOLA GAY the plane that dropped the first Nuke on Hiroshima.

Of course. In a perfect world...where Robert seems to pretend to be. If you, or anyone else ever said anything bad about the ARMY in general. You are now facing the ROBERT firing squad.

Your remarks are about ME.

My remarks have stayed on topic, namely the General. When he fecked up, he blamed it all on Gen. Fred Franks. I defend my old unit.

Got it?

You and Kath and even Jim need to stay on topic.

I am not the topic.

Are you catching on yet?

[aboutime]

Your remarks are about ME.

My remarks have stayed on topic, namely the General. When he fecked up, he blamed it all on Gen. Fred Franks. I defend my old unit.

Got it?

You and Kath and even Jim need to stay on topic.

I am not the topic.

Are you catching on yet?


​Whatever you say.

[Robert A Whit]

Schwarzkopf was in combat as well, as stated.

You just look very petty trying to libel a mans long military career, at the time he has passed away. It's simply a respect thing, as a human being. That you argue that, and disagree with that, is very telling.

You want to make this personal, between you and ME.

Fine then.

Tell you waht Jim, were you in the Army? Serving this country?

I WAS.

I have a right to tell the honest truth. When a man dies, his truth does not die.

Some of you not in the military types decided to make this about ME.

That is wrong. This is not about ME.

I did not end the war days too soon.

Guess who did?

It wasn't Gen. Fred Franks. Franks told HQ he wanted to do more to Saddam. He was called off.

Were it up to Franks, Saddam would never got to keep those gun ships that Saddam then used to kill more of the people of Iraq.

I doubt any of you that blast me knew any Generals.

Matter of fact, my commanding General over the division I served in was Gen. Frank Mildren. Turns out that Norman also worked for the same General.

[aboutime]

You want to make this personal, between you and ME.

Fine then.

Tell you waht Jim, were you in the Army? Serving this country?

I WAS.

I have a right to tell the honest truth. When a man dies, his truth does not die.

Some of you not in the military types decided to make this about ME.

That is wrong. This is not about ME.

I did not end the war days too soon.

Guess who did?

It wasn't Gen. Fred Franks. Franks told HQ he wanted to do more to Saddam. He was called off.

Were it up to Franks, Saddam would never got to keep those gun ships that Saddam then used to kill more of the people of Iraq.

I doubt any of you that blast me knew any Generals.

Matter of fact, my commanding General over the division I served in was Gen. Frank Mildren. Turns out that Norman also worked for the same General.

Robert. Since you claim all of this is about YOU.

To be honest with you Robert.

NOBODY GIVES A CRAP about your arguments.

This thread was about the Death of a General.

YOU, and YOU alone made it something else.

AND NOBODY GIVES A FLYING "F"!

By the way. Just a reminder.

I GAVE THIRTY YEARS (30) of my life to the U.S.Navy.
Do you hear me complaining about Admirals, or Generals?

I was there in the Persian Gulf in 1990-91, under the Command of General Schwatzkopf, and the other HALF MILLION American, and Allied troops.
Because a General you dislike didn't please you. Doesn't make you SPECIAL. Though I Salute, and Respectfully Thank You for your service as well.

THE WORLD DOES NOT, AND NEVER HAS REVOLVED AROUND YOU....ROBERT.
Until you recognize that fact. And stop thinking everyone is out to get you...for whatever reasons you imagine.
Nobody is going to care WHAT YOU SAY HERE.
That....IS A FACT, JACK.

[jimnyc]

You want to make this personal, between you and ME.

Fine then.

Tell you waht Jim, were you in the Army? Serving this country?

I WAS.

And yet you're still acting like a disrespectful dumbass. Generally, a military man would have more respect and common decency, but it doesn't work for everyone, I suppose.

[jimnyc]

Jim

By attacking me, you are making a serious mistake.

I don't mind you trying to make your case for Norman but I am dealing with facts.

Nobody attacked you, yet.

Don't deny you attacked me since you made it not about the topic, but your personal view about one thing. The poster and how you don't respect honest arguments.

I attacked no one. I simply pointed out that your words/actions are disrespectful. If you don't like it, don't be a disrespectful twit. Either way, I really don't give a crap, you're only making yourself look like even more of an ass with every post you make.

[Robert A Whit]

Abouttime.

It did not take you long to make it all about you.

I only stood up to Jim but you sure love to attack posters.

Rather odd why you a self admitted war hero wants to attack fellow vets.

Do you now feel better?

[jimnyc]

Abouttime.

It did not take you long to make it all about you.

I only stood up to Jim but you sure love to attack posters.

Rather odd why you a self admitted war hero wants to attack fellow vets.

Do you now feel better?

You being upset because someone attacked a "fellow vet" - while you attack the man who's jock strap you couldn't wash, let alone wear.

[aboutime]

And yet you're still acting like a disrespectful dumbass. Generally, a military man would have more respect and common decency, but it doesn't work for everyone, I suppose.


jimnyc: I have been asked to be more respectful to Robert. And, I have tried to do just that.

Whatever life has handed him seems to have brought him down. And I respect that. But I refuse to accept his accusations
that YOU and I are attacking him, or trying to undermine what he says here.
It appears he needs someone to blame, and at least three of us have become his prime targets.
So...we are all to blame for everything Robert experiences here.

Guess I'll just go EAT WORMS.

[jimnyc]

jimnyc: I have been asked to be more respectful to Robert. And, I have tried to do just that.

Whatever life has handed him seems to have brought him down. And I respect that. But I refuse to accept his accusations
that YOU and I are attacking him, or trying to undermine what he says here.
It appears he needs someone to blame, and at least three of us have become his prime targets.
So...we are all to blame for everything Robert experiences here.

Guess I'll just go EAT WORMS.

No attacks, and no undermining. Regardless of ones opinion of another, respect can still be given when someone passes away, and especially so when someone is an acknowledged hero and extremely decorated veteran. In other words, there is a time and a place for everything. For some people, politics and personal opinions trump respect and human decency. It enlightens the rest of us to ones character.

[Robert A Whit]

And yet you're still acting like a disrespectful dumbass. Generally, a military man would have more respect and common decency, but it doesn't work for everyone, I suppose.

Still wanting to make this about me.

Knock that shit off Jim.

[Robert A Whit]

No attacks, and no undermining. Regardless of ones opinion of another, respect can still be given when someone passes away, and especially so when someone is an acknowledged hero and extremely decorated veteran. In other words, there is a time and a place for everything. For some people, politics and personal opinions trump respect and human decency. It enlightens the rest of us to ones character.

Though I HAD not run down the General, I still got accused.

Look, if you guys dish it out, be ready to get it back.

I happen to have a hero worship for actual heros.

Abouttime loves to attack me then deny he attacked then whine like a baby when I mention what he does.

He even went so far to claim he was joking when he attacked me.

Her has to figure out what he is doing.

I suppose should I kiss Normans ass some of you will be pleased that you FORCED me to OBEY you.

Won't happen.

[jimnyc]

Though I HAD not run down the General, I still got accused.

Look, if you guys dish it out, be ready to get it back.

I happen to have a hero worship for actual heros.

Abouttime loves to attack me then deny he attacked then whine like a baby when I mention what he does.

He even went so far to claim he was joking when he attacked me.

Her has to figure out what he is doing.

I suppose should I kiss Normans ass some of you will be pleased that you FORCED me to OBEY you.

Won't happen.

Not at all. In fact, I really couldn't care less if you said nothing at all. It would be more respectful, in fact. But while I don't expect you to kiss Norman's ass, don't expect me to keep quiet if you disrespect the recently deceased.

[Robert A Whit]

jimnyc: I have been asked to be more respectful to Robert. And, I have tried to do just that.


Try harder. When you attack, i don't stand still for fools. You won't get any crap from me when you end your attacks. --Bob

Whatever life has handed him seems to have brought him down. And I respect that. But I refuse to accept his accusations

I did not accuse you of shit. It was you doing the accusing. I told the truth about Norman. Ane there you go making shit up about me. Nobody told you anything brought me down. You are confused. --Bob

that YOU and I are attacking him, or trying to undermine what he says here.

Ummmmm, you are badmouthing me. That is as much an attack on me as it is when somebody does it to you. Are you claimng you are dense? If the rules are we get to bad mouth each other as you do, and it is not an attack, why then I will do it to you all the time. Is that what you want? --Bob
It appears he needs someone to blame, and at least three of us have become his prime targets.
So...we are all to blame for everything Robert experiences here.

Guess I'll just go EAT WORMS.

Only the 3 doing the attacking. I laud the rest of the posters. But you ignored that. You seem to WANT to attack then you deny it then claim it is not your fault that you attack.

Oh and before I forget, some asked you to be nice because you were not nice. They noticed it and tried as you admit to be nice.

[jimnyc]

http://i47.tinypic.com/29v0yue.jpg

[Robert A Whit]

Not at all. In fact, I really couldn't care less if you said nothing at all. It would be more respectful, in fact. But while I don't expect you to kiss Norman's ass, don't expect me to keep quiet if you disrespect the recently deceased.

Jim, feel free to whine all you want to.

Bear in mind that it is in your mind that you think I should act in a fashion to suit you. Even at my personal expense.

I sure wish the whining had not started.

Time to end the whining.

[jimnyc]

http://i.imgur.com/Q1lJG.gif

[Robert A Whit]

When good men die, we take the time to pay respects. You're free not to, if you please.

Jim, I thank you for trying to parcel out my freedom to me. But I would appreciate it if you mean it.

Jim
Did you buy Normans book?

I did.

I put my money up to read his side of the story.

When you do, let me know.

Jim one more favor.

Try to end this crap about making the topic to be ME.

I prefer you guys discuss what you want and try to stop talking this way about Me.

That should not be too hard to do.

[Robert A Whit]

Sometimes, civil people say nothing, rather than disrespect others. 4211 I didn't like Richard Nixon. But I never lowered myself to disrespect his family, or his memory because I didn't agree, or like him.
Grow up. Join the adults here...For once.

Will you .... YES YOU, please end your whining? You his relative? I don't give a flying shit what you do. All I ask is you end this talking about ME. Nothing more. Your whining is pretty pathetic.

Did I tell you you can't worship the man?

You grow up.

[jimnyc]

I moved the crap posts from the thread I started to this running thread. I'd rather only one thread gets shit on per subject.

[Robert A Whit]

You being upset because someone attacked a "fellow vet" - while you attack the man who's jock strap you couldn't wash, let alone wear.

I defended from Normans attacks is all. But your way of talking is awful.

Did I shit in your mess kit?

Is Norman your relative?

You going to his funeral?

Why you and AT and Kath try to make this about me is annoying at best and boring at worst.

Why did I serve but you did not?

Jim, you are in error attacking me all the time. And you know you are.

Look how fucking personal you made it. I had not been doing that to you till you started in on me.

If the Generals family posts here, then let them tell me and I will be happy to straighten out that I am not disrespecting anybody. Truth is not disrespect.

Let me know if you are his family and I will happly take it personal on PM.

[jimnyc]

I defended from Normans attacks is all. But your way of talking is awful.

Did I shit in your mess kit?

Is Norman your relative?

You going to his funeral?

Why you and AT and Kath try to make this about me is annoying at best and boring at worst.

Why did I serve but you did not?

Jim, you are in error attacking me all the time. And you know you are.

Look how fucking personal you made it. I had not been doing that to you till you started in on me.

If the Generals family posts here, then let them tell me and I will be happy to straighten out that I am not disrespecting anybody. Truth is not disrespect.

Let me know if you are his family and I will happly take it personal on PM.

That's grand.

[aboutime]

Let's end this foolishness right here, right now.

Robert. Everything you say, and have said about everyone, and anything is exactly right.

There. Happy now?

Is that picking on you?

If so. As you told me a few weeks ago. "You need to see a psychiatrist for your anger management problems".

[Robert A Whit]

If you actually mean to quit doing what you have been doing AT, fine.

You will notice when you QUIT, I won't be quarreling with you.

[aboutime]

If you actually mean to quit doing what you have been doing AT, fine.

You will notice when you QUIT, I won't be quarreling with you.


Robert. If that's how you interpreted what I said. Go for it. Seems to me. I never mentioned the word QUIT. Since I am not a quitter.

[logroller]

Jim, there is still hope for you as I see this.

About the time you were starting kindergarten, I thought like you think.

It is evolved thinking.

Stick with it. It probably will happen to you too if I have anything to say about it.

When a man sticks my former unit in the eye, he has to live with what he did to the unit and when he dies the unit can still remember.
Yeah well; Patton was a great wartime general too, who also whined about not enough fuel...you know why he didn't get the fuel, piss poor politics on his part-- he didn't play well with others who, believe it or not, are keenly aware of the strategies necessary to win wars, not just battles. Strategies that involve garnering political, public and international support in order to actually get funding and authorization for those wars. While I'm sure the would be cannon fodder like yourself was thankful to be spared their return to room temperature, the long-term effect was deleterious, in that we would return to Iraq a decade later and more American lives were lost then due to a more entrenched enemy. But hey, Don't let the realities of geopolitical strategery rain on your hooraw parade.

[Robert A Whit]

Yeah well; Patton was a great wartime general too, who also whined about not enough fuel...you know why he didn't get the fuel, piss poor politics on his part-- he didn't play well with others who, believe it or not, are keenly aware of the strategies necessary to win wars, not just battles. Strategies that involve garnering political, public and international support in order to actually get funding and authorization for those wars. While I'm sure the would be cannon fodder like yourself was thankful to be spared their return to room temperature, the long-term effect was deleterious, in that we would return to Iraq a decade later and more American lives were lost then due to a more entrenched enemy. But hey, Don't let the realities of geopolitical strategery rain on your hooraw parade.

Franks did not whine. During combat, Stormin Norman only talked to Fred one time and led Franks to berlieve everything was fine. Franks had to deal with an added unit that was attached to him that was short of fuel and one of FRanks commanders fueled up that unit, leaving his own unit hoping for more fuel. Franks found out and kicked ass to find more fuel.

The problem was the army moved so far so fast (Franks army) that the fuel trucks could not keep up.

It was not Franks task to round up support from nations. That job was Stormins.

Stormin also gave Franks the idea he would have at least two more days to get the Republican guard handled then pulled the plug and halted the attacks.

Leaving a job not finished. Then Stormin decided it was fine for Saddam to keep his highly armed helicopters.

But in his book, Stormin passed the buck. I figured that sign was on his own desk.

If you have personal issues with me, by all means explain them.

[aboutime]

Franks did not whine. During combat, Stormin Norman only talked to Fred one time and led Franks to berlieve everything was fine. Franks had to deal with an added unit that was attached to him that was short of fuel and one of FRanks commanders fueled up that unit, leaving his own unit hoping for more fuel. Franks found out and kicked ass to find more fuel.

The problem was the army moved so far so fast (Franks army) that the fuel trucks could not keep up.

It was not Franks task to round up support from nations. That job was Stormins.

Stormin also gave Franks the idea he would have at least two more days to get the Republican guard handled then pulled the plug and halted the attacks.

Leaving a job not finished. Then Stormin decided it was fine for Saddam to keep his highly armed helicopters.

But in his book, Stormin passed the buck. I figured that sign was on his own desk.

If you have personal issues with me, by all means explain them.

ROBERT. All of those So-called Personal Issues you seem to have. Are all of Your Making.
Every time someone new enters the conversation, and you disagree with them, or they you.
YOU make it an assault on YOU, and cause it to be a Selfish, Self-centered Personal issue, or attack.

PARANOIA strikes deep. And Into it YOU CREEP.

[Kathianne]

Franks did not whine. During combat, Stormin Norman only talked to Fred one time and led Franks to berlieve everything was fine. Franks had to deal with an added unit that was attached to him that was short of fuel and one of FRanks commanders fueled up that unit, leaving his own unit hoping for more fuel. Franks found out and kicked ass to find more fuel.

The problem was the army moved so far so fast (Franks army) that the fuel trucks could not keep up.

It was not Franks task to round up support from nations. That job was Stormins.

Stormin also gave Franks the idea he would have at least two more days to get the Republican guard handled then pulled the plug and halted the attacks.

Leaving a job not finished. Then Stormin decided it was fine for Saddam to keep his highly armed helicopters.

But in his book, Stormin passed the buck. I figured that sign was on his own desk.

If you have personal issues with me, by all means explain them.



ROBERT. All of those So-called Personal Issues you seem to have. Are all of Your Making.
Every time someone new enters the conversation, and you disagree with them, or they you.
YOU make it an assault on YOU, and cause it to be a Selfish, Self-centered Personal issue, or attack.

PARANOIA strikes deep. And Into it YOU CREEP.



Notice Robert's last sentence (highlighted), when replying to LR's post, that contained nothing about Robert.

As AT and others have pointed out, it's always about Robert; until others strike back.

[aboutime]

Notice Robert's last sentence (highlighted), when replying to LR's post, that contained nothing about Robert.

As AT and others have pointed out, it's always about Robert; until others strike back.



Kathianne. I know I'm getting older by the day. But I still can't figure out what He's talking about, or why?

We should talk to jimnyc, and ask him to change the name of DEBATEPOLICY to ROBERT'S RUWLES!

[Kathianne]

Kathianne. I know I'm getting older by the day. But I still can't figure out what He's talking about, or why?

We should talk to jimnyc, and ask him to change the name of DEBATEPOLICY to ROBERT'S RUWLES!

I do believe that Robert has figured out that he's in charge. Notice the various 'warnings' he's given Jim? :laugh2:

[aboutime]

I do believe that Robert has figured out that he's in charge. Notice the various 'warnings' he's given Jim? :laugh2:


PREPARE for the worst today. After making such comments about Robert. I hope you know. Both of us are now targets in the Robert Crusade to challenge both of us to a DUEL.