Mega-church hypocrisy?

[KitchenKitten99]

I have been toying with the idea of going back to church. I am searching locally, and I think I have found a few I would like to visit.

Through this search, I have even looked at the mega-churches that I already know about, and have been to (mostly to see what makes them so popular). One I was member of until my grandmother passed away. I pretty much stopped going after her funeral there. Haven't set foot in the place since then, and that was 17 years ago. I have been in churches since then, just not that one. It is a fairly large church, but one of the smaller of the 'mega churches'. I don't really have an issue with that one in particular. I think it just feels part of my past life, and I don't ever really remembering liking it there. My grandmother did, which is why we went. I think after her funeral there... I also 'laid to rest' my desire to attend there. I was pretty angry with God for a while after that. Well, that and I really never felt a sense of belonging there to begin with. I always felt like an outsider.

There is another church locally, called the Living Word Christian Center. I guess the pastor, Mac Hammond, is pretty well known, even nationally.

I see this place and it is the size of two city blocks. Seriously. And they just expanded and added a flashy new LED sign that stands over the highway. There used to be someone's home that sat where that sign did. I watched them in the process of moving it a month or so ago, not realizing it was the church expanding.

Anyway... why does this church just reek of hypocrisy? I see the size of the place... if you walk from one end to the other, it takes 10 minutes. Now they do have a school there, but still. I am told that their annual budget is $35 million. I can't imagine the cost of the overhead for heating/power/water, etc.

Then there is the fact that Mac Hammond drives a Porche Cayenne. My husband used to attend this church with his ex-wife. Other than during school hours, the building is closed to the public most of the time. How is this supposed to make those seeking Him feel welcome?

Their new wing cost something around $7-10 million.

This 'church' is set in one of the lowest-income areas in the Twin Cities suburbs. It is riddled with crime and poverty.

They couldn't spend the $7-10 million on helping some of the people in the community?

To me, I see this Mac Hammond guy not really doing this for the love of His word and the desire to 'shepherd' the flock and bring those who seek Him in. I see this guy as profiting off His word. With multiple homes and even a private plane... this to me speaks of hypocrisy.

If all were taken away and he was no longer given such a lavish lifestyle by that church...would he still do what he does? Would he actually go out and find a regular job/career to support his family, and ultimately his lavish lifestyle?

Is he really in it for the love of His word, or for the love of the easy money and carefree lifestyle.

I suppose I could preach a good sermon myself if it meant I got the life he does. I wouldn't do it, because personally I believe someone spreading His word, would do so for free.

Now... I would like to think not all 'mega churches' are like LWCC. However I am curious to know why all of them need such expensive equipment and surroundings. They seem to spend more money and time doing things that don't really help the community directly. Much of it seems very self-fulfilling and have very little outside effect. Which leads me to feel like most of these massive churches are really just a money-making scheme with a religious facade.

I have googled and read various online blogs and articles with the same kind of concerns I have. Even several investigations about all the 'goings on'.

Thoughts...?

[tailfins]

I'm undecided on your topic. The larger the SUCCESSFUL organization, the more skill required of its chief executive, thereby worthy of more compensation. A 7-10 million dollar building could serve the poor very well if used for showers, counseling, job workshops, soup kitchens, etc.

[Marcus Aurelius]

seems like they are helping the community...

http://www.lwcc.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1608&Itemid=171

http://www.cufi.org/site/PageNavigator/about_directors_hammond

Today some of the outreaches that spring from Living Word include...

Maranatha Christian Academy, a fully-accredited, pre-K through 12th grade Christian school

Maranatha College, an evening and weekend college with an uncompromising Christian environment

Living Free Recovery Services, a state licensed outpatient treatment facility for chemical dependency

Club 3 Degrees, a cutting-edge Christian music club which is smoke/alcohol free

The Compassion Center, a multi-faceted outreach to inner-city residents

CFAITH, an online cooperative missionary outreach of hundreds of national and international organizations providing faith-based content and a nonprofit family oriented ISP

and a national and international media outreach that includes hundreds of audio/video teaching series, Winner’s Way broadcast, Prayer Notes publication, and Winner’s Way magazine.

[mundame]

I have googled and read various online blogs and articles with the same kind of concerns I have. Even several investigations about all the 'goings on'.

Thoughts...?

That's the part of your post that would worry me. So many of these megachurches have pastors who are doing wild sex orgies, sometimes homosexuality as we have read in the papers. If anything like that is going on, I would suggest not getting involved in such a church!!

As for the "take all you have and give it to the poor" part of your concern, the tension between great wealth and control versus lives of poverty and "leveling" (the communism that pops up every century or two because it IS in the Bible) has been going on since exactly 313 (Constantine) and that is an even 1700 years. So you can choose what you prefer; both systems can be defended. But if you are into leveling and giving as much as possible to the poor, you are not going to like a rich church that spends money like water for its facilities and staff, however long a history that may have within Christianity.

But the thing about cults -- and I think the megachurches are simply the latest installation of the cult phenomenon that is always, always with us forever -- is that they MUST have a charismatic cult leader who is very personable, sexy, controlling, and usually, frankly, into weird sex practices and a lot of it. That IS and always has been the norm, and it's why so many megachurch preachers fall from grace when their "goings-on" are discovered by a fascinated congregation.

The number of outed weirdos and con men in the evangelical/megachurch/television preacher contingent is so large that I would never get involved. My daughter and son-in-law go for the megachurches, and so far haven't gotten hurt. But you are saying you have a bad feeling about this megachurch. People know more than they know they know: I'd go with your gut feeling! It's tapping into something you don't have words for yet.

Interesting issue!

[PostmodernProphet]

there are lots of different churches.....I think mine is pretty nice......we have around 150 families that are members.....services are usually full.....we have an overflow room where some watch the service on a video screen.....we also broadcast the service live over the internet (been doing that for over ten years and were one of the first in the country to do so).....

a while back we made a decision to not expand the church building.....instead we bought an old hospital a few blocks away and turned it into a ministry center......now there are over fifty non-profits that operate out of it, including a food pantry, a health clinic, and a restaurant that lets people pay what they have for meals.....

we have a long history of people being involved in helping others......one boy who grew up in our church started a ministry called Kid's Hope USA which now operates in over thirty states......we were supporting an orphanage in Lesotho, Africa and when its founder retired a young family pulled up roots and moved to Africa to take over......we were also working with a poverty ministry in West Virginia and two families from the church moved there to work in that ministry.......

those are the big stories, but there are hundreds of little ones......a homeless girl and her baby living in the spare bedroom of a young family......a woman who met a crying Pakistani in the diaper aisle at the local store......found out that they had newborn twins, no family and his wife was ill.....within a day she had three shifts of volunteers providing 24 hour care for three weeks till the mother recovered.....a youth pastor providing counseling to a teenager who had killed his best friend with a knife while stoned out of his mind.....

I guess we qualify as a mega-church.....in size at least I've heard we are in the top 1% in the country......

a church isn't what you find it to be......a church is what you make it to be.....

[fj1200]

Anyway... why does this church just reek of hypocrisy? I see the size of the place... if you walk from one end to the other, it takes 10 minutes. Now they do have a school there, but still. I am told that their annual budget is $35 million. I can't imagine the cost of the overhead for heating/power/water, etc.

Then there is the fact that Mac Hammond drives a Porche Cayenne.

As my Sunday School leader said many wealthy church attendees/deacons don't like to be preached to by someone who makes considerably less than them or doesn't have the same station in life.

[mundame]

As my Sunday School leader said many wealthy church attendees/deacons don't like to be preached to by someone who makes considerably less than them or doesn't have the same station in life.

It's the classic split in the Church that has been going on for 1700 years. (Before the Emperor Constantine gave Christianity power and money and position and prestige, Christians were pretty much all poor, and persecuted right up through 311!)

It took a huge amount of money to build those huge, beautiful European cathedrals, to support the papacy for so many centuries in wealth and velvets and luxury. And they made a sort of empire of religion that replaced Rome to some extent, with all that use of money from churchgoers put to wealth and power.

But always in the shadows were the levellers, who remembered the commandment about taking ALL you have and giving it away.....and frequently, every century, they would break out, in heresies with many names, in religious wars, finally in the Reformation (which is heresy that won, like religions are cults that succeeded). The levellers have a slight edge right now, though not as much as two or three centuries ago when there were much stricter levellers like Puritans.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://joinus.campuscrusadeforchrist.com/discerning-gods-will/questions-about-staff/paul-was-a-tent-maker-he-didnt-ask-for-gifts-shouldnt-i-follow-his-example/

Paul was a tent maker. He didn’t ask for gifts. Shouldn’t I follow his example?

The apostle Paul writes in I Corinthians 9:14, “so also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.” He explains that God set up a system of financial support for His workers. He also writes that even though he had the right to be supported by the Corinthians, he chose to make tents. This was an exception, however, to Paul’s normal method of ministry.
Paul wanted to make sure that the Corinthians to whom he preached had no reason to question his motives. He chose to live on a smaller salary and take less from the Corinthians in order to validate his character, his faith and his ministry. With the Corinthian church Paul may have supplemented his income by sewing canvas, but he did rely on gifts from supporters.
Many times in the New Testament (Philippians 4:10- 16; 2 Corinthians 8:1-5) we see that the churches gave sacrificially to support Paul’s work. He commended them for their support and reminded them of the eternal profit of their gifts. “Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account” (Philippians 4:17).
This great missionary willingly received financial support from other Christians and churches, and he asked for support. “When I go to Spain…I hope to have you assist me on my journey” (Romans 15:24). The original language in this verse confirms Paul’s request for money. John also made reference to support: “For they went out for the sake of the Name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles. Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth” (3 John 7,8).
In examining Scripture it is clear that Paul was a support- raising missionary, and his part-time job in Corinth was a special exception to God’s financial plan for His full-time workers. The lifestyle of supported ministry that he was called to was little different than the models followed by both Levites of the Old Testament and Jesus Himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, ministers can receive support for doing their work,
BUT WHEN I SEE A MINISTER LIVING A HIGH AND LAVISH LIFESTYLE FROM DOING THAT WORK I QUESTION WHERE HIS PRIORITIES TRULY ARE!
ITS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT WHERE YOU SEE THE VERY WEALTHY AND THE HOOTY TOOTY ARROGANT PEOPLE FLOCK TO AND FEEL SO COMFORTABLE AT IS NOT THE PLACE TO WORSHIP! AT LEAST FOR ME ITS NOT.
ANY MINISTER LIVING A RICH AND LUXURIOUS LIFESTYLE IS NOT IN MY OPINION TRUE TO HIS SUPPOSED FAITH! THEY DO NOT HAVE TO LIVE AS PAUPERS BUT NEITHER SHOULD THEY BE ALLOWED TO LIVE AS WEALTHY ELITES IMHO..
A CHURCH CAN BE JUDGED BY ITS CONGREGATION AND BY ITS MINISTERS. -TYR

[tailfins]

http://joinus.campuscrusadeforchrist.com/discerning-gods-will/questions-about-staff/paul-was-a-tent-maker-he-didnt-ask-for-gifts-shouldnt-i-follow-his-example/

Paul was a tent maker. He didn’t ask for gifts. Shouldn’t I follow his example?

The apostle Paul writes in I Corinthians 9:14, “so also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.” He explains that God set up a system of financial support for His workers. He also writes that even though he had the right to be supported by the Corinthians, he chose to make tents. This was an exception, however, to Paul’s normal method of ministry.
Paul wanted to make sure that the Corinthians to whom he preached had no reason to question his motives. He chose to live on a smaller salary and take less from the Corinthians in order to validate his character, his faith and his ministry. With the Corinthian church Paul may have supplemented his income by sewing canvas, but he did rely on gifts from supporters.
Many times in the New Testament (Philippians 4:10- 16; 2 Corinthians 8:1-5) we see that the churches gave sacrificially to support Paul’s work. He commended them for their support and reminded them of the eternal profit of their gifts. “Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account” (Philippians 4:17).
This great missionary willingly received financial support from other Christians and churches, and he asked for support. “When I go to Spain…I hope to have you assist me on my journey” (Romans 15:24). The original language in this verse confirms Paul’s request for money. John also made reference to support: “For they went out for the sake of the Name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles. Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth” (3 John 7,8).
In examining Scripture it is clear that Paul was a support- raising missionary, and his part-time job in Corinth was a special exception to God’s financial plan for His full-time workers. The lifestyle of supported ministry that he was called to was little different than the models followed by both Levites of the Old Testament and Jesus Himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, ministers can receive support for doing their work,
BUT WHEN I SEE A MINISTER LIVING A HIGH AND LAVISH LIFESTYLE FROM DOING THAT WORK I QUESTION WHERE HIS PRIORITIES TRULY ARE!
ITS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT WHERE YOU SEE THE VERY WEALTHY AND THE HOOTY TOOTY ARROGANT PEOPLE FLOCK TO AND FEEL SO COMFORTABLE AT IS NOT THE PLACE TO WORSHIP! AT LEAST FOR ME ITS NOT.
ANY MINISTER LIVING A RICH AND LUXURIOUS LIFESTYLE IS NOT IN MY OPINION TRUE TO HIS SUPPOSED FAITH! THEY DO NOT HAVE TO LIVE AS PAUPERS BUT NEITHER SHOULD THEY BE ALLOWED TO LIVE AS WEALTHY ELITES IMHO..
A CHURCH CAN BE JUDGED BY ITS CONGREGATION AND BY ITS MINISTERS. -TYR

This church was part of my reason for leaving the South:

They are EXACTLY the type of church you speak of:
http://frbc.com/

[gabosaurus]

KK99, I think you are looking at the wrong things. The size or location of the church should not matter.
When my husband I looked for a church after moving to Huntington Beach from the Bay Area, I had a few qualifications. Mainly -- does the church speak to me? Does their philosophy and values mirror my own?

The church I attended in the Bay Area was located in a strip mall. The minister had another full time job. But his message spoke volumes, and the members were very devoted.
The church I attend now is larger. There are two pastors, a youth minister and a minister of music. It was recommended to me and I was impressed the first time I went. The lead pastor has a loud, commanding voice, and the service moves everyone. It is almost like a rock concert at time.
What I like best is the congregation. There are blacks, whites, Latinos and anyone who wants to wander in off the street. No offering plate is passed (the offering is taken in the foyer) and no one hawks their book.
I recommend attending a church that interests you and see how you are moved and how you are welcomed.

[mundame]

There are blacks, whites, Latinos and anyone who wants to wander in off the street. No offering plate is passed (the offering is taken in the foyer) and no one hawks their book.


No one hawks their book? :laugh: I love it.


Blacks, latinos, anyone who wanders in off the street? Ho, boy. Sounds like Baltimore. I would pay money --- in a regular collection plate --- to avoid a church like that. Sounds like a prime mugger's hunting ground.

But I'm glad you found one that suits you.

[KitchenKitten99]

Yes, ministers can receive support for doing their work,
BUT WHEN I SEE A MINISTER LIVING A HIGH AND LAVISH LIFESTYLE FROM DOING THAT WORK I QUESTION WHERE HIS PRIORITIES TRULY ARE!
ITS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT WHERE YOU SEE THE VERY WEALTHY AND THE HOOTY TOOTY ARROGANT PEOPLE FLOCK TO AND FEEL SO COMFORTABLE AT IS NOT THE PLACE TO WORSHIP! AT LEAST FOR ME ITS NOT.
ANY MINISTER LIVING A RICH AND LUXURIOUS LIFESTYLE IS NOT IN MY OPINION TRUE TO HIS SUPPOSED FAITH! THEY DO NOT HAVE TO LIVE AS PAUPERS BUT NEITHER SHOULD THEY BE ALLOWED TO LIVE AS WEALTHY ELITES IMHO..
A CHURCH CAN BE JUDGED BY ITS CONGREGATION AND BY ITS MINISTERS. -TYR

This is what I was trying to say.

I am not saying give all you have to others less fortunate. It is good to help others, yes, but no to the point where you then become impoverished.

I just see this guy living with a private jet, several luxury cars, and about 3-4 homes in various parts of the US and think it is morally wrong to profit off spreading His word.

If Mac Hammond actually had a regular career that he excelled at to live the lifestyle he does, and was a pastor/preacher on the side, I might see him differently.

He says he has a 'calling'... what, you mean a calling to be a soaker of over 50% of the church's annual budget?

To me, if one truly has a calling, that person would do it for free, if not far less than the 6-figures he gets paid plus the additional benefits of the church paying for the private jet and luxury homes. He and his wife, and I believe a few of their relatives make up the 'board' who decides what perks he gets.

He says God wants us to be Winners in all areas of life. The only winning I see, is his pocketbook getting filled by the suckers who buy his 'tithing' speeches every week so he can buy the newest model Porche.

Don't take this as being envious of what he has and that I don't have. There are plenty of people who walk through my shop doors who are millionaires several times over. I really don't care about stuff like that. I only see someone profiting off His word, and to me that seems very wrong. Why would I want to put more money in his pocket when there are plenty of other churches around who do even more work, and are just as effective, without the massive budget and the need for TV broadcasts weekly?

[mundame]

Whoa, I think you've answered your question, KK. You need a different church from that one. A very different church.

I agree with you. That one would creep me out, and I'm not even much of a leveller.

[KitchenKitten99]

Whoa, I think you've answered your question, KK. You need a different church from that one. A very different church.

I agree with you. That one would creep me out, and I'm not even much of a leveller.

I never really had a question on anything other than opinions of churches that have pastors like this.

I know I am looking at other places. One is a very nice and quaint little church. I am going to have to sit in for a service or two first but I like the location and their online blog shows a very active community.

[Robert A Whit]

I have been toying with the idea of going back to church. I am searching locally, and I think I have found a few I would like to visit.

Through this search, I have even looked at the mega-churches that I already know about, and have been to (mostly to see what makes them so popular). One I was member of until my grandmother passed away. I pretty much stopped going after her funeral there. Haven't set foot in the place since then, and that was 17 years ago. I have been in churches since then, just not that one. It is a fairly large church, but one of the smaller of the 'mega churches'. I don't really have an issue with that one in particular. I think it just feels part of my past life, and I don't ever really remembering liking it there. My grandmother did, which is why we went. I think after her funeral there... I also 'laid to rest' my desire to attend there. I was pretty angry with God for a while after that. Well, that and I really never felt a sense of belonging there to begin with. I always felt like an outsider.

There is another church locally, called the Living Word Christian Center. I guess the pastor, Mac Hammond, is pretty well known, even nationally.

I see this place and it is the size of two city blocks. Seriously. And they just expanded and added a flashy new LED sign that stands over the highway. There used to be someone's home that sat where that sign did. I watched them in the process of moving it a month or so ago, not realizing it was the church expanding.

Anyway... why does this church just reek of hypocrisy? I see the size of the place... if you walk from one end to the other, it takes 10 minutes. Now they do have a school there, but still. I am told that their annual budget is $35 million. I can't imagine the cost of the overhead for heating/power/water, etc.

Then there is the fact that Mac Hammond drives a Porche Cayenne. My husband used to attend this church with his ex-wife. Other than during school hours, the building is closed to the public most of the time. How is this supposed to make those seeking Him feel welcome?

Their new wing cost something around $7-10 million.

This 'church' is set in one of the lowest-income areas in the Twin Cities suburbs. It is riddled with crime and poverty.

They couldn't spend the $7-10 million on helping some of the people in the community?

To me, I see this Mac Hammond guy not really doing this for the love of His word and the desire to 'shepherd' the flock and bring those who seek Him in. I see this guy as profiting off His word. With multiple homes and even a private plane... this to me speaks of hypocrisy.

If all were taken away and he was no longer given such a lavish lifestyle by that church...would he still do what he does? Would he actually go out and find a regular job/career to support his family, and ultimately his lavish lifestyle?

Is he really in it for the love of His word, or for the love of the easy money and carefree lifestyle.

I suppose I could preach a good sermon myself if it meant I got the life he does. I wouldn't do it, because personally I believe someone spreading His word, would do so for free.

Now... I would like to think not all 'mega churches' are like LWCC. However I am curious to know why all of them need such expensive equipment and surroundings. They seem to spend more money and time doing things that don't really help the community directly. Much of it seems very self-fulfilling and have very little outside effect. Which leads me to feel like most of these massive churches are really just a money-making scheme with a religious facade.

I have googled and read various online blogs and articles with the same kind of concerns I have. Even several investigations about all the 'goings on'.

Thoughts...?

The LDS church is large enough to serve the local area. You will never be asked to put cash into any collection plate.
The churches are designed to fit the neighborhood and are not ostentatious.
You will not find a paid minister. The Bishop is paid nothing. If you want to make a lot of money by preaching, shun the Mormon Church.

Do you feel pressure once inside during services.

NO.

Is Sunday School handled during services?

NO

When one attends church, that time is for God and Jesus. It is their time. After services, then you can study doctrine, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, etc.

The church may be just what you seek.

Bear in mind, church is not entertainment. You won't find bands playing as you do in many Xtian churches. We call the church a Ward and if need be, more than one ward meets in the same building, staggered as to time of service.

Unlike some churches, you are not grilled to answer questions during church. Loud services are not part of the system. Check it out.

[Robert A Whit]

Experience can sure help in a selection. God is serious to me. The LDS Bishop (in charge of a ward) receives no pay. The LDS church has a range of things to do.

Sunday is the day of the services. We have one evening for family get togethers in the middle of the week.

Trying to make sure no member falls between the cracks, you can expect, once a member, that your well being will be checked on and if you are in need, be looked after.

The unmarried woman, even with no children, may be in such need that the church gives her food, pays her rent or home payments and so forth. Services are not rambuctionous. There is none of that standing and clapping hands or shouting during service.

No man should seek leadership in the church to obtain some fancy car or home. Church is not for that purpose.

I have attended a fair number of churches. I found some real Bible experts at the various churches. Some annoyed me since they appear to me to be a way for some pastor to make a lot of money. Songs are fine, Mormons also sing. But we revere God. We revere Jesus. I have never heard of Jesus being loud, receiving lots of money for his time nor raising hell during services.

We don't do any of that.

[KitchenKitten99]

The LDS church is large enough to serve the local area. You will never be asked to put cash into any collection plate.
The churches are designed to fit the neighborhood and are not ostentatious.
You will not find a paid minister. The Bishop is paid nothing. If you want to make a lot of money by preaching, shun the Mormon Church.

Do you feel pressure once inside during services.

NO.

Is Sunday School handled during services?

NO

When one attends church, that time is for God and Jesus. It is their time. After services, then you can study doctrine, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, etc.

The church may be just what you seek.

Bear in mind, church is not entertainment. You won't find bands playing as you do in many Xtian churches. We call the church a Ward and if need be, more than one ward meets in the same building, staggered as to time of service.

Unlike some churches, you are not grilled to answer questions during church. Loud services are not part of the system. Check it out.

Thank you for your input. However I am thinking that the Wesleyan church is probably what will best fit me. There are a couple around here.

On another note, I came across this article while looking at blogs mentioning various things about Mac Hammond and I wanted to know if it was just rumors, or if there was any truth. Interesting to say the least...

This was 2 years ago and obviously they are not in foreclosure anymore. Not sure who is the actual owner now, and the property tax records aren't popping up because of the recent land acquisition for their new wing and sign, thus it is being re-platted, etc.

http://minnesotaindependent.com/63977/mac-hammonds-living-word-christian-church-facing-foreclosure

(emphases not mine; they were links that didn't copy over. See full article for the links)


Property owned by Living Word Christian Center has gone into foreclosure, according to the Hennepin County Sheriff’s office. On July 28, four parcels of land owned by the Brooklyn Park mega-church was bought at a sheriff’s sale for $5.1 million. Pastor Mac Hammond (http://minnesotaindependent.com/tag/mac-hammond), who preaches a “prosperity gospel,” has been plagued by financial problems over the last few years. The church took millions from a man who was later convicted of fraud, and the IRS opened an investigation into the church’s finances stemming from favorable financial dealings between the church and Hammond. ...
[snip]

In early 2008, the church began to fall behind on its budget by $40,000 to $70,000 (http://www.startribune.com/local/north/15724587.html), prompting Hammond to sell off his jet and forcing the church to cut its hour-long television broadcast to a half hour.
In May, the church was served with papers demanding the return of $2.2 million in money it received from Gerard Cellette, who had been convicted of fraud. Cellette ran a Ponzi scheme and lawyers for the victims were attempting to collect the money from Living Word for remuneration.
The church said in a statement in May (http://twincities.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2010/05/10/daily49.html) that it felt it shouldn’t have to give the money back to the victims because of its status as a church. “This lawsuit, on behalf of Mr. Cellette’s investors, to take back the funds from LWCC and repay the investors is unfair. Our church is essentially being asked to be the guarantor to principally out-of-state, sophisticated investors that made bad investments with Mr. Cellette.”
It’s not the first time the church has invoked religious privilege following questions about its finances.
In 2007, the Minnesota Independent reported (http://minnesotaindependent.com/1232/second-irs-violation-filed-against-living-word-christian-center-and-pastor-mac-hammond)that Living Word had arranged favorable loans for Hammond and that Hammond had bought a stunt plane from the church and then leased it back to the church. That reporting led to an IRS investigation, and in 2008 the church sued to block the IRS from investigating.
The IRS wanted a look at Hammond’s and Living Word’s financial books, but Hammond invoked religious privilege. (http://minnesotaindependent.com/11468/living-word-fights-irs-investigation-in-district-court) ...

[Abbey Marie]

Hey KK,

I don't think the size of the church necessarily means it has spiritual problems. Wanting a larger building to be able to reach a larger congregation is fine. But I think your instincts are good on this particular church. IMO, a pastor who is right with God, filled with the holy spirit, would not be living such a lavish lifestyle. It seems like a big red flag to me.

You will know the right church when sit through a service. The only thing that truly matters is the spiritual heart of your pastor, and based on your post, I'll bet you will have a feel for that when you hear him speak. Everything else is extraneous.

I wish you the very best in your search! It's so important for your children.

-Abbey

[mundame]

In May, the church was served with papers demanding the return of $2.2 million in money it received from Gerard Cellette, who had been convicted of fraud. Cellette ran a Ponzi scheme and lawyers for the victims were attempting to collect the money from Living Word for remuneration.
The church said in a statement in May (http://twincities.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2010/05/10/daily49.html) that it felt it shouldn’t have to give the money back to the victims because of its status as a church. “This lawsuit, on behalf of Mr. Cellette’s investors, to take back the funds from LWCC and repay the investors is unfair. Our church is essentially being asked to be the guarantor to principally out-of-state, sophisticated investors that made bad investments with Mr. Cellette.”
It’s not the first time the church has invoked religious privilege following questions about its finances.

Oh, good, the church got involved in money laundering for a Ponzi scheme. It only lacked that. This church is crooked as a dogleg.

[fj1200]

Oh, good, the church got involved in money laundering for a Ponzi scheme. It only lacked that. This church is crooked as a dogleg.

Uh, it appears that they only received funds from a scammer, not being involved in money laundering. A big difference not that they didn't do other questionable things.

[Robert A Whit]

Thank you for your input. However I am thinking that the Wesleyan church is probably what will best fit me. There are a couple around here.

On another note, I came across this article while looking at blogs mentioning various things about Mac Hammond and I wanted to know if it was just rumors, or if there was any truth. Interesting to say the least...

This was 2 years ago and obviously they are not in foreclosure anymore. Not sure who is the actual owner now, and the property tax records aren't popping up because of the recent land acquisition for their new wing and sign, thus it is being re-platted, etc.

http://minnesotaindependent.com/63977/mac-hammonds-living-word-christian-church-facing-foreclosure

(emphases not mine; they were links that didn't copy over. See full article for the links)

As I have reported, I have been to many churches. Some appear to be in it for the money.
I had a pastor of a Baptist church as a client one time. We were riding around in my car and he admitted to me that to him, church is a business. I was at his church and it was rather modest so I doubt he was getting rich. I saw his car and it was just a used car of modest cost.

As to the church you believe fits, at least with the LDS, they all teach the same thing on the same Sunday. I enjoy the no pressure environment. I enjoy the way the people are all pro family and pro honesty.

I only hoped to see if you might check the church out. I would sit in the church on Sunday rather than sit down with the missionaries. We know that they have a goal. I don't have a goal. I only offered this word on the church since you sought advice.

I don't know why some treat church as a money making business. I saw it happen over and over with various churches.

Despite this, the Mormon church is far from poor. They don't pass collection plates but if members are willing to pay thithes, that can set you back about 10 percent. That adds up to a lot of cash. But they also do lots of good things even for non members. Such as helping those in need during and post Katrina.

[mundame]

Uh, it appears that they only received funds from a scammer, not being involved in money laundering. A big difference not that they didn't do other questionable things.


If you read carefully it looks like money laundering, and they had a track record of doing this sort of thing. I know something about this stuff because I know a woman who got involved in the Ponzi scheme that the FBI just shut down, Zeekler. They try to launder the money however they can because the law says the feds can "clawback" the money and give it back to the defrauded participants. I would guess the church was "holding" it for her for a while for a percentage, but the feds are onto this strategem.

I expect the staff of this church will be spending some time in jail shortly. They sound remarkably corrupt.

[fj1200]

If you read carefully it looks like money laundering, and they had a track record of doing this sort of thing. I know something about this stuff because I know a woman who got involved in the Ponzi scheme that the FBI just shut down, Zeekler. They try to launder the money however they can because the law says the feds can "clawback" the money and give it back to the defrauded participants. I would guess the church was "holding" it for her for a while for a percentage, but the feds are onto this strategem.

I expect the staff of this church will be spending some time in jail shortly. They sound remarkably corrupt.

I did, I disagree. Unless you have some better info. You have this uncanny ability to make huge leaps of logic.

[mundame]

In May, the church was served with papers demanding the return of $2.2 million in money it received from Gerard Cellette, who had been convicted of fraud. Cellette ran a Ponzi scheme and lawyers for the victims were attempting to collect the money from Living Word for remuneration.
The church said in a statement in May (http://twincities.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2010/05/10/daily49.html) that it felt it shouldn’t have to give the money back to the victims because of its status as a church. “This lawsuit, on behalf of Mr. Cellette’s investors, to take back the funds from LWCC and repay the investors is unfair. Our church is essentially being asked to be the guarantor to principally out-of-state, sophisticated investors that made bad investments with Mr. Cellette.”
It’s not the first time the church has invoked religious privilege following questions about its finances.


1. A Ponzi-scammer GAVE them $2.2 million? Very unlikely.

2. This woman was convicted of fraud for her Ponzi scheme and this was the money she had made from it. We know this because victims' lawyers were trying to "claw back" this money, that she "gave" to the church.

3. The church is trying to stonewall the money recovery, on the basis that it's a church, as if that mattered.

4. They have invoked religious privilege before when their financial dealings were challenged. We don't know exactly what that means, but it looks to me as though they set themselves up as a money-laundering facility for a cut of the profits sequestered under the concept of church privilege.

5. My guess is that they will keep a percentage of the $2.2 million and give her back the rest under the table after the trouble dies down, or at least that's the scheme.

[fj1200]

1. A Ponzi-scammer GAVE them $2.2 million? Very unlikely.

2. This woman was convicted of fraud for her Ponzi scheme and this was the money she had made from it. We know this because victims' lawyers were trying to "claw back" this money, that she "gave" to the church.

3. The church is trying to stonewall the money recovery, on the basis that it's a church, as if that mattered.

4. They have invoked religious privilege before when their financial dealings were challenged. We don't know exactly what that means, but it looks to me as though they set themselves up as a money-laundering facility for a cut of the profits sequestered under the concept of church privilege.

5. My guess is that they will keep a percentage of the $2.2 million and give her back the rest under the table after the trouble dies down, or at least that's the scheme.

1. Even crooks give money.

2. And? Nothing new here.

3. OK.

4. Conjecture based on prejudice.

5. So we come to the conclusion that all of the above is just a "guess." :rolleyes:

[logroller]

1. A Ponzi-scammer GAVE them $2.2 million? Very unlikely.

2. This woman was convicted of fraud for her Ponzi scheme and this was the money she had made from it. We know this because victims' lawyers were trying to "claw back" this money, that she "gave" to the church.

3. The church is trying to stonewall the money recovery, on the basis that it's a church, as if that mattered.

4. They have invoked religious privilege before when their financial dealings were challenged. We don't know exactly what that means, but it looks to me as though they set themselves up as a money-laundering facility for a cut of the profits sequestered under the concept of church privilege.

5. My guess is that they will keep a percentage of the $2.2 million and give her back the rest under the table after the trouble dies down, or at least that's the scheme.
1. "It is undisputed that Living Word and Go Ministries accepted these funds in good faith and honesty," Larson (the judge in the case) wrote. Even, "David Wymore, a Plymouth attorney, said he has seven clients who he believes lost a total of about $4 million. The money Cellette gave to the church was never his to donate because he acquired it by fraud, Wymore said. 'In essence, he was donating other people's money to the church,' Wymore said."
http://m.startribune.com/?id=103973258

2. "She"??? Gerard Celette? After a cursory read, you'll find that Celette is a man.

3 & 4. The church's argument was that Celette had colluded with investors to defraud, and thus were ineligible to be made whole. It had nothing to do with "being a church". Nonetheless, The argument failed.
5. Last Thing mentioned anywhere is an agreement to return the funds was reached between the church and the receiver. Have you evidence otherwise?

[avatar4321]

I'm undecided on your topic. The larger the SUCCESSFUL organization, the more skill required of its chief executive, thereby worthy of more compensation. A 7-10 million dollar building could serve the poor very well if used for showers, counseling, job workshops, soup kitchens, etc.

Preaching the Word of God should be done without financial compensation. Otherwise, you may be looking at priestcraft, which is the preaching to get money and fame rather than for the glory of God.

I've never been impressed with the mega churches personally. I won't begrudge anyone who find God through them. But I don't think that's really the way God wants us to live. I suppose if I did, Id be part of a Mega Church.

My suggestion for finding a Church:

1) Study the scriptures. Make sure they are preaching correct principles.
2) Get on your knees and humbly ask God for direction in this process.

I can't over emphasize number 2 my friend. God gives all men wisdom liberally. (Im confident women are included in that promise). He has a plan for you and if you are looking for the best way to worship Him, then the best source for direction on that is Him.

[avatar4321]

As my Sunday School leader said many wealthy church attendees/deacons don't like to be preached to by someone who makes considerably less than them or doesn't have the same station in life.

Then, no offense to wealthy church attendees, they are fools.

[avatar4321]

KK99, I think you are looking at the wrong things. The size or location of the church should not matter.
When my husband I looked for a church after moving to Huntington Beach from the Bay Area, I had a few qualifications. Mainly -- does the church speak to me? Does their philosophy and values mirror my own?

The church I attended in the Bay Area was located in a strip mall. The minister had another full time job. But his message spoke volumes, and the members were very devoted.
The church I attend now is larger. There are two pastors, a youth minister and a minister of music. It was recommended to me and I was impressed the first time I went. The lead pastor has a loud, commanding voice, and the service moves everyone. It is almost like a rock concert at time.
What I like best is the congregation. There are blacks, whites, Latinos and anyone who wants to wander in off the street. No offering plate is passed (the offering is taken in the foyer) and no one hawks their book.
I recommend attending a church that interests you and see how you are moved and how you are welcomed.

I may be going off topic, but shouldn't the question be "Does the Church teach the values of God?" rather than than "Does the Church's philosophy and values mirror my own?"

What's the point of going to Church if you aren't trying to learn God's will? What's the point if you aren't willing to repent and actually make changes in your life as you learn what God wants?

[KitchenKitten99]

Hey KK,

I don't think the size of the church necessarily means it has spiritual problems. Wanting a larger building to be able to reach a larger congregation is fine. But I think your instincts are good on this particular church. IMO, a pastor who is right with God, filled with the holy spirit, would not be living such a lavish lifestyle. It seems like a big red flag to me.

You will know the right church when sit through a service. The only thing that truly matters is the spiritual heart of your pastor, and based on your post, I'll bet you will have a feel for that when you hear him speak. Everything else is extraneous.

I wish you the very best in your search! It's so important for your children.

-Abbey

I have no issues with preachers/pastors who live a luxury life--if that life is supported by a career outside the church, not because of the church.

[fj1200]

Then, no offense to wealthy church attendees, they are fools.

Possibly but that's not necessarily what makes them foolish. Live by the prosperity gospel, die by the prosperity gospel.

[Abbey Marie]

I have no issues with preachers/pastors who live a luxury life--if that life is supported by a career outside the church, not because of the church.

A pastor who can spend the time to earn that kind of money outside the church is not going to have time for his congregation's needs. There are only so many hours in a week.

[KitchenKitten99]

A pastor who can spend the time to earn that kind of money outside the church is not going to have time for his congregation's needs. There are only so many hours in a week.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of careers or ways of earning the income level for a life like that which don't take up more time than the average job, and some even less. One could have started a business well before they became a pastor... and that business took off, and was then sold or any number of possibilities.

I know plenty of pastors who have full time jobs outside their church. My ex and I were married by one. He is a good friend of the family as well. He certainly doesn't live a lavish lifestyle, but he is very comfortable and is always able to tend to his congregation's needs.

[gabosaurus]

A pastor who can spend the time to earn that kind of money outside the church is not going to have time for his congregation's needs. There are only so many hours in a week.

The nation's largest mega-church is in Houston. Lakewood Church meets in a refurbished sports area that can seat around 16,000.
If you ever listen to the pastor, Joel Osteen, you will find his messages have very little to do with God and religion. They are more about hope, understand, love and peach.
Lakewood Church has been described as "Jesus Light," or church for those who are undecided about religion.
Osteen is fabulously wealthy, and stays that way be being very ambivalent about most issues. Like the Sandy Hook massacre.


Osteen also appeared with his wife, Victoria, on the "Today" show to discuss the Newtown shootings. Host Matt Lauer asked Osteen whether he felt a responsibility, given the reach of his ministry, to take a stand on gun-control policy.

"No I really don't, Matt," Osteen said, "because political issues divide us."

http://www.chron.com/newtownshooting/article/Osteen-says-Sandy-Hook-should-serve-as-a-wake-up-4151901.php

[gabosaurus]

I prefer to attend a church where the pastor knows every regular member (about 300 or so) on a personal basis.
I doubt someone like Joel Osteen has ever met the vast majority of his congregation. Though he is known to socialize with the wealthier ones.

[aboutime]

A pastor who can spend the time to earn that kind of money outside the church is not going to have time for his congregation's needs. There are only so many hours in a week.



Abbey. I think you really hit on something there. REPLACE the word 'pastor' above with 'President', and it makes much more sense. Unless those many hours in the week are spent ON A GOLF COURSE...in Hawaii!

[KitchenKitten99]

The nation's largest mega-church is in Houston. Lakewood Church meets in a refurbished sports area that can seat around 16,000.
If you ever listen to the pastor, Joel Osteen, you will find his messages have very little to do with God and religion. They are more about hope, understand, love and peach.
Lakewood Church has been described as "Jesus Light," or church for those who are undecided about religion.
Osteen is fabulously wealthy, and stays that way be being very ambivalent about most issues. Like the Sandy Hook massacre.



http://www.chron.com/newtownshooting/article/Osteen-says-Sandy-Hook-should-serve-as-a-wake-up-4151901.php

I believe that Mac Hammond serves on the board of that church. It might be a different church he serves as a board on but the name rings a bell from an article I came across...

Honestly I really don't care about their material wealth and possessions. It's HOW they are obtaining them I see as immoral.

As far as Osteen's response to the Sandy Hook tragedy, I commend him for staying out of the political aspects and just doing what he SHOULD be doing. He has a far outreach, yes. But that outreach can be overstepped when interjecting into something you weren't asked to do. If one side or another wants his help and wants to utilize his resources, it is up to him to say ok. It is not conducive to be where he's not wanted and speak when no one wants to hear.

Kind of like a Hollywood celebrity refusing to comment on politics (regardless of their 'side') as well. Then again, most liberals look to Hollyweirdos as if they are preachers. Nevermind most of them make a living creating fiction.

[Robert A Whit]

A pastor who can spend the time to earn that kind of money outside the church is not going to have time for his congregation's needs. There are only so many hours in a week.


We have many Mormon Bishops who are very wealthy and they have plenty of time to attend to the needs of the church.

Being AT church need not consume as much time as to do it full time.

[Robert A Whit]

I prefer to attend a church where the pastor knows every regular member (about 300 or so) on a personal basis.
I doubt someone like Joel Osteen has ever met the vast majority of his congregation. Though he is known to socialize with the wealthier ones.

In our Mormon church, oru Bishop knows every person that attends that ward. And those who have money earned it at some job. Our Bishops get a lot of help from the members too.

[Abbey Marie]

We have many Mormon Bishops who are very wealthy and they have plenty of time to attend to the needs of the church.

Being AT church need not consume as much time as to do it full time.

Our pastor knows us, and will come to the hospital, etc., or just to pray with us, if we need him. Not to mention the time he spends on ministries. Pastors who work outside cannot just leave their jobs to do these things when they are needed. Especially the kind of jobs that produce lavish lifestyles.

I wouldn't think of staying at a church where I couldn't rely on our pastor to do such things when needed. But everyone is free to go where they like. At least for now.

[Robert A Whit]

Our pastor knows us, and will come to the hospital, etc., or just to pray with us, if we need him. Not to mention the time he spends on ministries. Pastors who work outside cannot just leave their jobs to do these things when they are needed. Especially the kind of jobs that produce lavish lifestyles.

I wouldn't think of staying at a church where I couldn't rely on our pastor to do such things when needed. But everyone is free to go where they like. At least for now.

Hospitals allow visits qute late in this area. Our Bishop also has plenty of help. Patients don't go ignored.

[gabosaurus]

There are many who attend church services to seek the word of God. Or to seek comfort in their time of need.
This is my main beef with churches who emphasize stewardship, or regular contributions. I have heard Mormon leaders state that you can be a good member without giving 10 percent of your income to the church. To be fair, other churches and religions state the same thing.


Gordon B. Hinckley, prior President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said: “Our major source of revenue is the ancient law of the tithe. Our people are expected to pay 10 percent of their income to move forward the work of the Church. The remarkable and wonderful thing is that they do it. Tithing is not so much a matter of dollars as it is a matter of faith. It becomes a privilege and an opportunity, not a burden.

[darin]

That's the part of your post that would worry me. So many of these megachurches have pastors who are doing wild sex orgies, sometimes homosexuality as we have read in the papers. If anything like that is going on, I would suggest not getting involved in such a church!!

I couldn't get past this logical fallacy to continue reading - what is 'so many'? If you can tell us what 'so many' equals, I'd like to know how you've done your research. Is 3 'so many'? 15?

What's your baseline? What's a "megachurch" and how many are there in the USA? In the world? What percentage do the things you describe?

[Robert A Whit]

There are many who attend church services to seek the word of God. Or to seek comfort in their time of need.
This is my main beef with churches who emphasize stewardship, or regular contributions. I have heard Mormon leaders state that you can be a good member without giving 10 percent of your income to the church. To be fair, other churches and religions state the same thing.

Any Mormon can be a good Mormon and not pay tithing. But the church does have a lock on you should you want to do work in the Temple. They also won't perform certain things for you if you won't tithe.

They do so much good with the money that at least it is not money spent to pay for leaders.
We don't pay leaders. We don't supply them with fancy homes or cars.

[Trinity]

Just a thought....why do you feel that you need to attend or belong to a church?

[logroller]

Just a thought....why do you feel that you need to attend or belong to a church?
to get to heaven of course. :laugh2:

[gabosaurus]

Any Mormon can be a good Mormon and not pay tithing. But the church does have a lock on you should you want to do work in the Temple. They also won't perform certain things for you if you won't tithe.

They do so much good with the money that at least it is not money spent to pay for leaders.
We don't pay leaders. We don't supply them with fancy homes or cars.

The Mormon church owns the largest newspaper and the largest TV station in Utah. They have a stake in many of the largest businesses. They have built multimillion dollar shopping malls.
If the LDS don't pay their leaders, how have the leaders become so wealthy?

[Robert A Whit]

Just a thought....why do you feel that you need to attend or belong to a church?

Since this followed my message about the mormon Church, I shall reply.

I am very lazy when it comes to going to church. I can't deny my baptism.

I have been thinking about going back to church. Why?

Fellowship. Remind myself that there is something out there more important than serving only myself.

[aboutime]

The Mormon church owns the largest newspaper and the largest TV station in Utah. They have a stake in many of the largest businesses. They have built multimillion dollar shopping malls.
If the LDS don't pay their leaders, how have the leaders become so wealthy?


Gabby. Try asking that same question about OBAMA and members of Congress.

Otherwise. Your hatred for what seems like ANYTHING related to, or connected with Mormonism is nothing but BIGOTRY.

[KitchenKitten99]

Just a thought....why do you feel that you need to attend or belong to a church?

If you're addressing this question to me... I have several reasons, but I do not feel the need to explain or justify my decision to anyone.

[Robert A Whit]

The Mormon church owns the largest newspaper and the largest TV station in Utah. They have a stake in many of the largest businesses. They have built multimillion dollar shopping malls.
If the LDS don't pay their leaders, how have the leaders become so wealthy?

That as I have discovered is a hard nut to crack. I believe my research shows that the church plays no role in active management.

The Church does not pay leaders. Any leaders that got rich did it in ways such as Romney did. My uncle got rich in Utah as a church member by building tract homes and custom homes and commercial buildings. The only church cash he got was when he built mormon churches.

I can't explain how all of them got rich but it is well known to church members that leaders do not get paid to do church work.

[Trinity]

If you're addressing this question to me... I have several reasons, but I do not feel the need to explain or justify my decision to anyone.


Nope wasn't addressing anyone in particular...just curious. :D

[avatar4321]

There are many who attend church services to seek the word of God. Or to seek comfort in their time of need.
This is my main beef with churches who emphasize stewardship, or regular contributions. I have heard Mormon leaders state that you can be a good member without giving 10 percent of your income to the church. To be fair, other churches and religions state the same thing.

Again, isn't the point of going to Church to learn God's will and help you live by it? The law of tithing is a pretty specific commandment. God said that those who didn't pay it are robbing Him, very pointedly in the scriptures. And it comes with a promise to have the windows of heaven be poured out upon you with compliance. I know my life isn't nearly as good when I am not paying tithes as when I am. God pours out blessings I don't expect with it.

Ultimately, it's an exercise of faith. Do you have the faith to return to God 10% of what He has already given you? And He has provided one of the greatest promises for compliance, in Malachi Chapter 3 with an invitation to prove Him. So do it. Exercise some faith. Because if you don't have faith to give 10% of what you have, how can you possibly get the faith to give everything, which is what God is truly asking us for.

[avatar4321]

Just a thought....why do you feel that you need to attend or belong to a church?

Christianity isn't just about our personal reconciliation with God. It's also about our reconciliation with our fellow man. That's what Church is for. To help us build our communities, to serve our brethren, to lift one another.