NRA wants armed security at schools

[Robert A Whit]

I assume you smart people know that the NRA announced a program.

Naturally as expected, Democrats flock forth to attack the idea of armed security at schools.

If you suggested to Democrats, all armed security surrounding Obama be removed immediately, they would burst forth enmasse with a cacaphony to deafen you to say HELL NO.

I was surprised by the NRA, but think about the idea. It makes perfect sense.

Protect the chilren by security at school. Many schools due to student violence do have cops. We don't hear of mass killings at those schools. They are protected by cops. We don't need cops at school if there are some designated armed people that protect the students. Arming the teachers may or may not be the right way. We might not want every teacher armed. The idea is that the school is known to have protection.

Any ideas about this are welcome.

[tailfins]

Enough panic already! Has it ever occurred to anybody that the panic itself traumatizes kids? I'm opposed to the NRA's approach and the left's approach. Just more carefully follow current procedures about preventing unauthorized people onto school grounds. Fences with intrusion sensors and other unnoticeable measures are also a good idea.

[Robert A Whit]

Enough panic already! Has it ever occurred to anybody that the panic itself traumatizes kids? I'm opposed to the NRA's approach and the left's approach. Just more carefully follow current procedures about preventing unauthorized people onto school grounds. Fences with intrusion sensors and other unnoticeable measures are also a good idea.

An instance where that failed was last week in CT. I am not panic stricken nor is the NRA. The idea is that no longer will schools be a soft target. Bear in mind that this crazy youth shot the window out per reports I saw on my local news.

The left will not accept your suggestion. Got some other idea?

[tailfins]

An instance where that failed was last week in CT. I am not panic stricken nor is the NRA. The idea is that no longer will schools be a soft target. Bear in mind that this crazy youth shot the window out per reports I saw on my local news.

The left will not accept your suggestion. Got some other idea?

If people insist on armed security, at least station them in out of sight video control rooms not seen by the students.

[Little-Acorn]

If people insist on armed security, at least station them in out of sight video control rooms not seen by the students.

I see the usual hysteria is running full flag, as always.

When you see a cop walking down the street, do you freak out and go flying around the room screaming, as you are doing here? You KNOW he has a gun, of course. And you KNOW he will use it on a bad guy who is threatening innocent people, of course.

No, you don't do that. I think.

And neither will school kids who see that nice Mr. Simpson, the guy in the uniform who has been there every day for the last year, who carries that awesome-looking gun snapped in a holster.

It seems that every leftist who screams in horror over the idea of normal, law-abiding people carrying a gun for defense, is required to have a hysterical, oh-my-gawd-its-all-so-awful mental outlook that even 6-year-olds find comical.

Do you strange people ever come down to earth and act like normal humans? Or is your affectation of horror and insanity in the face of normalcy, permanent?

[Robert A Whit]

If people insist on armed security, at least station them in out of sight video control rooms not seen by the students.

Schools with cops on campus don't hide them in such rooms.

I like the idea of video that fully covers the campus and parking lots. Seems like a metal detector at all entries can trigger an alarm too. But the perp needs to realize he faces people that are armed.

[Robert A Whit]

OK, the NRA plan has not been put out yet. Asa Hutchinson and a committee will come up with answers.

I would say that schools must have on campus video at the least able to monitor all areas.
Second, metal detector alarms should be in place. Doors locked as well.

We keep the courts safe in CA by having just that with deputies taking care of the metal detectors and making sure nobody has harmful metal on them to get inside the building.

A lot better than banning guns.

[Kathianne]

Maybe it's that I live close to a major urban area? Perhaps that the districts have the money to provide. None of our schools are without video coverage in parking lots, within school, and at all entrances. While the front office monitors the front and the field house areas, banks of video are monitored in a nearby office, so that all entrances are monitored at all times.

Both high schools and middle schools have an armed police officer assigned to each, paid for by the police. These officers work with students and with social worker. If there's a 'troubled child' it will be brought to the officer's attention.

None of our schools have metal detectors, but most if not all in the city do.

Additional fencing is not necessary, as anyone in the community has the right to walk up to the door, though not necessarily gain entrance.

[tailfins]

I see the usual hysteria is running full flag, as always.

When you see a cop walking down the street, do you freak out and go flying around the room screaming, as you are doing here? You KNOW he has a gun, of course. And you KNOW he will use it on a bad guy who is threatening innocent people, of course.

No, you don't do that. I think.

And neither will school kids who see that nice Mr. Simpson, the guy in the uniform who has been there every day for the last year, who carries that awesome-looking gun snapped in a holster.

It seems that every leftist who screams in horror over the idea of normal, law-abiding people carrying a gun for defense, is required to have a hysterical, oh-my-gawd-its-all-so-awful mental outlook that even 6-year-olds find comical.

Do you strange people ever come down to earth and act like normal humans? Or is your affectation of horror and insanity in the face of normalcy, permanent?

If I see a cop following me in traffic, I will pull into a gas station or something before he uses me to fulfill his ticket quota. I'm opposed to living in a police state. The cops are only marginally better than the criminals they arrest.

Here is a video for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUv3A4hscc0

[Robert A Whit]

If I see a cop following me in traffic, I will pull into a gas station or something before he uses me to fulfill his ticket quota. I'm opposed to living in a police state. The cops are only marginally better than the criminals they arrest.

Here is a video for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUv3A4hscc0

Good video.

BTW, when my son in law was a cop working for the City of San Mateo in CA, he told me that at his department they did not have quotas for anything.

Of course this did not mean that management would not discover if any officer was or was not doing their jobs properly.

Quotas are wrong in my opinion.

Cops have a way to know what efforts to cut back speeding, crimes and so forth are doing and a decline in numbers probably means the programs are working.

[aboutime]

http://youtu.be/s3QNC8_wP4k


Or...better yet...
http://youtu.be/FPp4qb-phrA

[Robert A Whit]

http://youtu.be/s3QNC8_wP4k


Or...better yet...
http://youtu.be/FPp4qb-phrA

Sir, heed your own advice which you have thus far failed to do.

These daily crap fests you start with posters must end.

Your advice sir.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/29375.html) "

[tailfins]

Sir, heed your own advice which you have thus far failed to do.

These daily crap fests you start with posters must end.

Your advice sir.

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/29375.html) "

It's the Friday before Christmas and he is messing around. You're not supposed to take him seriously. Given the mood he is in, you should be grateful for not switching out the first letter of your last name.:grenade:


I do understand where you are coming from, but it's just a joke.

[pete311]

Columbine had armed security guards. lot of good that did

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/DEPUTIES_TEXT.htm

[aboutime]

It's the Friday before Christmas and he is messing around. You're not supposed to take him seriously.


Thanks tailfins. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Guess we're somehow not supposed to have some fun, considering all of the terrible things taking place around us these days.

Besides. I'm looking forward to having a great time soon, when our entire family will be together...for the first time in THREE YEARS.

If coming here, and pointing out things I don't like is disagreeable to any other member.

They do have the Option of Ignoring whatever frustrates, insults, offends, or ruins their :clap:Psychiatric training programs????:laugh::dance::laugh2:

[Robert A Whit]

It's the Friday before Christmas and he is messing around. You're not supposed to take him seriously. Given the mood he is in, you should be grateful for not switching out the first letter of your last name.:grenade:


I do understand where you are coming from, but it's just a joke.

My friend, Dare I say you are not on the end of his attacks? Do you know his history with me? Daily attacks have become normal for him. His wild ass accusations are crazy talk.

Something is wrong with a man who talks like he does. I suggested he get anger managment.

If this is his idea of fun, something even worse must be the matter with him.
:salute:

[aboutime]

My friend, Dare I say you are not on the end of his attacks? Do you know his history with me? Daily attacks have become normal for him. His wild ass accusations are crazy talk.

Something is wrong with a man who talks like he does. I suggested he get anger managment.

If this is his idea of fun, something even worse must be the matter with him.
:salute:


I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ROBERT. Thanks for the advice.

THERE IS SOMETHING THE MATTER. Take a guess???????:lol:

[Gaffer]

Cops don't have quotas, they are free to issue as many tickets as they want.

There are paper hangers out there. Those are the hotdogs that like to fish and see what they can catch in a casual traffic stop.

Sometimes a specific area is targeted and, based on past tickets in that area, a cop who isn't reaching a certain number over a few days is probably goofing off. Then there are small towns whose only source of revenue are traffic tickets. Those cops are usually part timers whose sole purpose is to write tickets. Crimes in those areas are handled by the sheriff or state patrol.

Tailfins, your exactly the kind of guy I would follow into that parking lot to check you out, because your acting paranoid.

[tailfins]

My friend, Dare I say you are not on the end of his attacks? Do you know his history with me? Daily attacks have become normal for him. His wild ass accusations are crazy talk.

Something is wrong with a man who talks like he does. I suggested he get anger managment.

If this is his idea of fun, something even worse must be the matter with him.
:salute:

When you throw gasoline on a fire, it gets bigger. You have to decide if you like fire. Here is a video on the topic:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8WCmkwRRnk

[tailfins]

Cops don't have quotas, they are free to issue as many tickets as they want.

There are paper hangers out there. Those are the hotdogs that like to fish and see what they can catch in a casual traffic stop.

Sometimes a specific area is targeted and, based on past tickets in that area, a cop who isn't reaching a certain number over a few days is probably goofing off. Then there are small towns whose only source of revenue are traffic tickets. Those cops are usually part timers whose sole purpose is to write tickets. Crimes in those areas are handled by the sheriff or state patrol.

Tailfins, your exactly the kind of guy I would follow into that parking lot to check you out, because your acting paranoid.

Maybe I'm nonchalant not to attract any attention, especially in the city. If a cop were to follow me somewhere, I would just explain I neither like nor trust cops in general and that his following me just confirms my suspicions. I would repeatedly ask "Are you detaining me?" "Am I free to go"?, getting a chance to practice the training provided by Flex Your Rights. I suspect cops know civil rights training when they see it. Good cops don't become hostile to it. Bad cops deserve formal complaints and lawsuits.

[Robert A Whit]

Columbine had armed security guards. lot of good that did

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/columbine.cd/Pages/DEPUTIES_TEXT.htm

Since the report did not state the resource officer was armed, how do you know he was?

Next, those shooters should have been spotted before they could enter the school.

This is the actual problem. While the community resource officer was spying on smokers, he was out of position to see the shooters enter the school.

A well constructed safety needs more than one cop. It needs cameras. It needs a person watching the monitors. It requires some sort of communication set up. And locked doors. That comes first.

My daughter was hired by a city to be a community service officer and I shall ask her to find out if she was armed. She had been highly trained in the use of police weapons of various types.

[Robert A Whit]

When you throw gasoline on a fire, it gets bigger. You have to decide if you like fire. Here is a video on the topic:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8WCmkwRRnkI will give that ass hat some fire repellent. He must think he is fucking with an amateur. I have seen his sort of flame wars many times in other forums.

[Robert A Whit]

Maybe I'm nonchalant not to attract any attention, especially in the city. If a cop were to follow me somewhere, I would just explain I neither like nor trust cops in general and that his following me just confirms my suspicions. I would repeatedly ask "Are you detaining me?" "Am I free to go"?, getting a chance to practice the training provided by Flex Your Rights. I suspect cops know civil rights training when they see it. Good cops don't become hostile to it. Bad cops deserve formal complaints and lawsuits.

I have had some cops as clients. Some acted like tough guys at times. My son in law is a retired cop. I have yet to meet a police department that preaches to cops to evade the constitution.

We don't like cops until we are in some store that is being robbed and by god, we have no way to stop it. We don't carry a gun. The robber has one though. But at that moment, any cop you see will be your best friend.

If you get stopped by cops, a lot, why do you think it happens?

[Robert A Whit]

Cops don't have quotas, they are free to issue as many tickets as they want.

There are paper hangers out there. Those are the hotdogs that like to fish and see what they can catch in a casual traffic stop.

Sometimes a specific area is targeted and, based on past tickets in that area, a cop who isn't reaching a certain number over a few days is probably goofing off. Then there are small towns whose only source of revenue are traffic tickets. Those cops are usually part timers whose sole purpose is to write tickets. Crimes in those areas are handled by the sheriff or state patrol.

Tailfins, your exactly the kind of guy I would follow into that parking lot to check you out, because your acting paranoid.

My son in law would not try to speak for all police departments, but he assured me his department had no quotas. Matter of fact, his largest complaint was that in his jurisdiction, the court had judges who tossed out tickets like confetti. So he lost interest in writing many tickets. They never called him in to explain either.

[fj1200]

Since the report did not state the resource officer was armed, how do you know he was?

Next, those shooters should have been spotted before they could enter the school.

This is the actual problem. While the community resource officer was spying on smokers, he was out of position to see the shooters enter the school.

A well constructed safety needs more than one cop. It needs cameras. It needs a person watching the monitors. It requires some sort of communication set up. And locked doors. That comes first.

My daughter was hired by a city to be a community service officer and I shall ask her to find out if she was armed. She had been highly trained in the use of police weapons of various types.

The report told that he returned fire. The shooters were students, what would have indicated to stop them?

[Robert A Whit]

The report told that he returned fire. The shooters were students, what would have indicated to stop them?

I kept reading about various cops and what they did. If I made that error, I will check the report again. But I suspect you are correct. But he was not where he was needed when he was eating food in his car where smokers hang out. Keep in mind, a cops job has nothing to do with smoking. He should have been by some exit that was not locked.

What do you want to bet that after the shootings, the school and cops made some important changes?

[fj1200]

^And all that presumes that a small contingent can truly protect that many kids. I'm doubtful to say the least and a one-size fits all approach is not the answer.

[jimnyc]

So long as they must have extensive background searches, qualification, training and other such things to know the best are being placed in there. I wouldn't want some green guy in there that's really never fired a weapon. If they fit the criteria, I would have no problem with schools being armed. Do I think it would stop every last incident, if someone was hell bent on getting around them? Nope. But the odds increase dramatically that they could help in some way if not stop any deaths from happening at all. In other words, I don't see what it could hurt, other than funding. I think our children are worth it, and also a small cost considering it would go towards preserving our rights.

Banning guns, and not allowing the guards in school = still armed criminals out there and no one can help prevent such attacks or minimize.

[DragonStryk72]

Enough panic already! Has it ever occurred to anybody that the panic itself traumatizes kids? I'm opposed to the NRA's approach and the left's approach. Just more carefully follow current procedures about preventing unauthorized people onto school grounds. Fences with intrusion sensors and other unnoticeable measures are also a good idea.

Problem is, it still wouldn't have stopped what happened, though I do agree that the panic on both sides of the spectrum is harmful. Children take their cues from us, the parents and adults. If we are calm, they assume everything's fine, but when we panic, they realize something's going horribly wrong.

This is why child psychiatrists have to be so very careful with children. It's easy to lead a kid into believing the wrong thing, or that there is something wrong with them that doesn't exist.

No precautions that would have gone unnoticed by the kids could have stopped what happened in CT. Gun control didn't stop it, morality didn't stop it. The sad point is that there is really nothing we can do against something like this.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Obama never tries to solve any problems he just uses them to justify implementing his leftist/anti-american agenda.
1. Example, we have a MASSIVE DEBT due primarily to insane spending. Obama's answer to that is not the obvious stop the insane spending instead it is raise more money by raising taxes!
2. Example, we have a tragic school security problem. Obama answer to that is more gun restrictions , more attacks on the 2nd amendment, more attacks on our freedoms. Instead of setting up proper security in every school.

NOW IN EXAMPLE ONE HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT MASSIVELY SPENDING/WASTING TRILLIONS BUT IN EXAMPLE TWO HE WILL AND LIKELY ALREADY HAS REJECTED ARMED GUARDS IN SCHOOLS DUE TO THE MASSIVE COSTS IT WOULD INCUR. SEE EACH EXAMPLE ALLOWS FOR HIS AGENDA TO CARRIED FORTH WITH ZERO REGARD FOR ACTUALLY SOLVING THE PROBLEM!

He is a destroyer first and foremost. -Tyr

[tailfins]

Obama never tries to solve any problems he just uses them to justify implementing his leftist/anti-american agenda.
1. Example, we have a MASSIVE DEBT due primarily to insane spending. Obama's answer to that is not the obvious stop the insane spending instead it is raise more money by raising taxes!
2. Example, we have a tragic school security problem. Obama answer to that is more gun restrictions , more attacks on the 2nd amendment, more attacks on our freedoms. Instead of setting up proper security in every school.

NOW IN EXAMPLE ONE HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT MASSIVELY SPENDING/WASTING TRILLIONS BUT IN EXAMPLE TWO HE WILL AND LIKELY ALREADY HAS REJECTED ARMED GUARDS IN SCHOOLS DUE TO THE MASSIVE COSTS IT WOULD INCUR. SEE EACH EXAMPLE ALLOWS FOR HIS AGENDA TO CARRIED FORTH WITH ZERO REGARD FOR ACTUALLY SOLVING THE PROBLEM!

He is a destroyer first and foremost. -Tyr

Keep Boehner and company in line and the rest is just noise. Give Johnny a call, you'll make him so happy that he will cry and beg the rest of the GOP caucus to vote against any further gun restrictions. They will be so impressed with Johnny's humility that they will do as he asks. Did and done.

[Kathianne]

Problem is, it still wouldn't have stopped what happened, though I do agree that the panic on both sides of the spectrum is harmful. Children take their cues from us, the parents and adults. If we are calm, they assume everything's fine, but when we panic, they realize something's going horribly wrong.

This is why child psychiatrists have to be so very careful with children. It's easy to lead a kid into believing the wrong thing, or that there is something wrong with them that doesn't exist.

No precautions that would have gone unnoticed by the kids could have stopped what happened in CT. Gun control didn't stop it, morality didn't stop it. The sad point is that there is really nothing we can do against something like this.

There actually seemed to be little panic going on in that school, the adults in charge did all they could with what had been deemed possible at that point. It seems to me that the Sandy Hook school had all the security they could: video monitoring, double door entering, office only enter. They did not allow the shooter through the first set of doors, he blasted his way in.

He shot in the administrative area and kept going. The principal, psychologist, and vice principal tried to rush him in a hall, probably diverting him for precious seconds or minutes. Two of them died. One was injured.

Inadvertently or not, the PA system forewarned teachers that something terrible was underway and procedures were followed. They kept the children from being in visual site through doors and windows. In the first grade classrooms this wasn't enough. The class that was totally eliminated was led by a 'permanent short-term sub' for a maternity leave. Was she given the same training as regular staff? Don't know. The second classroom hit was by the 'hero' teacher that used her body as a shield. 6 children still died, but by this time, 20 minutes after first call, first responders were through the doors and the shooter killed himself.

What more could be done? Adults had rushed a shooting man. Teachers did all they could to protect their kids.

What if the administrators were trained and had guns available? From all accounts he wore body armor, but a head or limb shot may have stopped some or all? What if when he busted into a room, the teacher was armed and fired?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Keep Boehner and company in line and the rest is just noise. Give Johnny a call, you'll make him so happy that he will cry and beg the rest of the GOP caucus to vote against any further gun restrictions. They will be so impressed with Johnny's humility that they will do as he asks. Did and done.

IF BY JOHNNY YOU MEAN BONER GOT NOTHING TO SAY TO THE MAN.
He has let obama treat him like a six year old child! Congress has the purse but this idiot seems to think it must beg obama to be allowed to use its power.
The guy is not a true leader. A true leader would stand on principles and not kiss obama's ring so much..
The Republican pary needs to start electing fighters not pansy ass career ladder climbing appeasors.
The respect these worms give obama is sickening to any true American!!!-Tyr

[Kathianne]

Boehner is not my favorite, but a damned site better than Pelosi. With what the far right in the House appear to be leading up to, we may well see a majority of (R) in the House, with Pelosi as Speaker. Not a wise move.

[aboutime]

MARK MY WORDS HERE.

Congress, and Obama are going to have an agreement before January 1st.

And that agreement will be. STATUS QUO. Kicking the can down the road with temporary fixes that allow the POOR Members to go home for Christmas, and The NEW YEAR....of more BULLSHIT.

[Kathianne]

MARK MY WORDS HERE.

Congress, and Obama are going to have an agreement before January 1st.

And that agreement will be. STATUS QUO. Kicking the can down the road with temporary fixes that allow the POOR Members to go home for Christmas, and The NEW YEAR....of more BULLSHIT.

Possible. More likely IMO is that the (R) are splintering and destroying from within. Some see this as a move forward. I hope they are correct, but experience says they will rue the day.

[DragonStryk72]

There actually seemed to be little panic going on in that school, the adults in charge did all they could with what had been deemed possible at that point. It seems to me that the Sandy Hook school had all the security they could: video monitoring, double door entering, office only enter. They did not allow the shooter through the first set of doors, he blasted his way in.

He shot in the administrative area and kept going. The principal, psychologist, and vice principal tried to rush him in a hall, probably diverting him for precious seconds or minutes. Two of them died. One was injured.

Inadvertently or not, the PA system forewarned teachers that something terrible was underway and procedures were followed. They kept the children from being in visual site through doors and windows. In the first grade classrooms this wasn't enough. The class that was totally eliminated was led by a 'permanent short-term sub' for a maternity leave. Was she given the same training as regular staff? Don't know. The second classroom hit was by the 'hero' teacher that used her body as a shield. 6 children still died, but by this time, 20 minutes after first call, first responders were through the doors and the shooter killed himself.

What more could be done? Adults had rushed a shooting man. Teachers did all they could to protect their kids.

What if the administrators were trained and had guns available? From all accounts he wore body armor, but a head or limb shot may have stopped some or all? What if when he busted into a room, the teacher was armed and fired?

Actually one shotgun with even bird shot in it would have been enough on that end. They may not have panicked in the midst of the crisis, but now, in the aftermath, we seem to be doing nothing but panicking, which is what I was referring to.

It's like with airport security after 9/11. We really only needed one small move, the addition of federal marshalls on planes in plain clothes, so that nobody knew who the marshall was. But the people panicked, and the admin played up the panic, so we went horribly overboard.

[Kathianne]

Actually one shotgun with even bird shot in it would have been enough on that end. They may not have panicked in the midst of the crisis, but now, in the aftermath, we seem to be doing nothing but panicking, which is what I was referring to.

It's like with airport security after 9/11. We really only needed one small move, the addition of federal marshalls on planes in plain clothes, so that nobody knew who the marshall was. But the people panicked, and the admin played up the panic, so we went horribly overboard.

Perhaps people not involved, but those on the scene? Seems little to no panic. More for the argument to arm willing staff in schools.

[Robert A Whit]

^And all that presumes that a small contingent can truly protect that many kids. I'm doubtful to say the least and a one-size fits all approach is not the answer.

They can game it out and tailor it to each school system.

I see a more complex solution and want to offer it in it's rough form now.

Say we assume the school is attacked by a dozen killers. We know from past experience this would be a worst case event. Getting a dozen men that want to kill kids together at one time and place would be hard short of them being terrorists.

First set up layers of defense.
Two, ensure the school is covered by enough hard to spot cameras. This to keep them from being shot out. Given the cost of manpower, such as cops, this is a much lower cost system to install.
Three, Have electric locks that work by pushing 1 button and have buttons in offices and classes. At exits, teachers should be able to push an exit button allowing students to escape. Indicator light should show dorrs locks or not locked.
And last, but with openings to improve, some weapon must be in the hands of teachers. I am not suggesting each teacher has a gun. Some who are well trained can have guns. Some may have tasers. Some may have a pepper spray.

It can be worked out. Drilled a few times and they all get the idea.

As I said, this can be improved or modified to fit conditions.

[fj1200]

I see a more complex solution and want to offer it in it's rough form now.

Say we assume the school is attacked by a dozen killers.

You're kidding right?

[DragonStryk72]

Perhaps people not involved, but those on the scene? Seems little to no panic. More for the argument to arm willing staff in schools.

But the public panicking at large is still affecting those children, plus other all across the country. My bet is that all of the children in Sandy Hook have been sent to counseling, without waiting to see if they actually need therapy, or if they maybe just need a hug from their parents and a good cry.

One of the first things I was taught by mom in first aid was essentially the Hippocratic oath. She taught me to observe, and make certain that I was not making the situation worse. The same is true in almost any crisis, to be certain that the actions you take do not worsen the situation, because yes, sometimes the worst thing you can do is involve yourself, and that is the hardest lesson for us to learn.

It's a little strange, but people don't fear an assault rifle as much as they fear a shotgun. My thought is that it's the cocking sound when you chamber a round. It's so incredibly distinctive, it cause you to automatically pay attention to it.

[DragonStryk72]

They can game it out and tailor it to each school system.

I see a more complex solution and want to offer it in it's rough form now.

Say we assume the school is attacked by a dozen killers. We know from past experience this would be a worst case event. Getting a dozen men that want to kill kids together at one time and place would be hard short of them being terrorists.

First set up layers of defense.
Two, ensure the school is covered by enough hard to spot cameras. This to keep them from being shot out. Given the cost of manpower, such as cops, this is a much lower cost system to install.
Three, Have electric locks that work by pushing 1 button and have buttons in offices and classes. At exits, teachers should be able to push an exit button allowing students to escape. Indicator light should show dorrs locks or not locked.
And last, but with openings to improve, some weapon must be in the hands of teachers. I am not suggesting each teacher has a gun. Some who are well trained can have guns. Some may have tasers. Some may have a pepper spray.

It can be worked out. Drilled a few times and they all get the idea.

As I said, this can be improved or modified to fit conditions.

Sandy Hook fortress elementary school? Thanks, but no. Not a chance in hell I would send my kid anywhere that requires that much protection.

[Robert A Whit]

I stipulated it to be a worst case event. I would not expect a dozen killers to show up unless they were terrorists.

Or maybe government.

[DragonStryk72]

I stipulated it to be a worst case event. I would not expect a dozen killers to show up unless they were terrorists.

Or maybe government.

That's not the worst case event. Here, I'll give it to you: The dozen killers show up, break in through a window, thus making the electronic locks superfluous, take control of the school. The cameras that were installed are now under their control, and the fences allow them the tactical capacity when combined with even one of them having a rifle, to hold off the cops, as well as have time to kill off every man, woman and child in the school.

Further, thanks to the cafeteria, they have an indefinite supply of food, and the nurses office provide them with basic first aid. The very act of setting up greater defense has now granted the attackers a base to operate out of. When the cops storm the place, the tires on the SWAT van are taken out by AP sniper fire, and now they have those arms and bullet-proof armors added to their arsenal.

That is the worst case. That all of your efforts and planning have only made the situation worse.

[Robert A Whit]

That's not the worst case event. Here, I'll give it to you: The dozen killers show up, break in through a window, thus making the electronic locks superfluous, take control of the school. The cameras that were installed are now under their control, and the fences allow them the tactical capacity when combined with even one of them having a rifle, to hold off the cops, as well as have time to kill off every man, woman and child in the school.

Further, thanks to the cafeteria, they have an indefinite supply of food, and the nurses office provide them with basic first aid. The very act of setting up greater defense has now granted the attackers a base to operate out of. When the cops storm the place, the tires on the SWAT van are taken out by AP sniper fire, and now they have those arms and bullet-proof armors added to their arsenal.

That is the worst case. That all of your efforts and planning have only made the situation worse.

Actually had you included my OP, you would have pulled out all stops to add to the defense rather than attack my comments.

Or would you?

Do you want the country disarmed?

I don't.

I think if honest men of good will got their heads together, this is a problem that can be solved.

[Robert A Whit]

That's not the worst case event. Here, I'll give it to you: The dozen killers show up, break in through a window, thus making the electronic locks superfluous, take control of the school. The cameras that were installed are now under their control, and the fences allow them the tactical capacity when combined with even one of them having a rifle, to hold off the cops, as well as have time to kill off every man, woman and child in the school.

Further, thanks to the cafeteria, they have an indefinite supply of food, and the nurses office provide them with basic first aid. The very act of setting up greater defense has now granted the attackers a base to operate out of. When the cops storm the place, the tires on the SWAT van are taken out by AP sniper fire, and now they have those arms and bullet-proof armors added to their arsenal.

That is the worst case. That all of your efforts and planning have only made the situation worse.


I give your plan odds of maybe 1 percent of working against the school that has trained teachers, some with side arms, some with shot guns, etc and your armed thugs that were spotted as soon as they approached the school were fired at upon attempts to break into the school.

I have to say too that were you this defeatist as a member of the armed forces, no doubt such an attitude has weakened our armed forces.

We might add more defense to my system and that my friend was the purpose of my remarks.

We have to defeat the plans of the democrats. Our constitution depends on it.

[DragonStryk72]

Actually had you included my OP, you would have pulled out all stops to add to the defense rather than attack my comments.

Or would you?

Do you want the country disarmed?

I don't.

I think if honest men of good will got their heads together, this is a problem that can be solved.

Wow, how deep into your ass did you have to reach for that one?

I don't even think schools should be gun-free zones, but I am flatly against making them fortresses. Your attempt to twist what I said is just weak, and you really need to stop doing that to people. This "with me or against me" crap is a weak way of arguing.

I just laid out the "worst case" scenario, and you have no rebuttal but to attack me. So basically, I'm right, and you have no argument.

[DragonStryk72]

I give your plan odds of maybe 1 percent of working against the school that has trained teachers, some with side arms, some with shot guns, etc and your armed thugs that were spotted as soon as they approached the school were fired at upon attempts to break into the school.

I have to say too that were you this defeatist as a member of the armed forces, no doubt such an attitude has weakened our armed forces.

We might add more defense to my system and that my friend was the purpose of my remarks.

We have to defeat the plans of the democrats. Our constitution depends on it.

Doesn't matter. Completely immaterial to the worst-case scenario. The killers came in too quickly for a proper response, some of the staff accidentally kill another in the crossfire, and the killers now have more guns, way to go.

Again, the "worst case" is that your attempts to stop things from happening only make it worse. Come on, give me more ammo. The point is, you're completely missing what I'm saying.

[Kathianne]

Doesn't matter. Completely immaterial to the worst-case scenario. The killers came in too quickly for a proper response, some of the staff accidentally kill another in the crossfire, and the killers now have more guns, way to go.

Again, the "worst case" is that your attempts to stop things from happening only make it worse. Come on, give me more ammo. The point is, you're completely missing what I'm saying.

I agree. If a school is being 'attacked' by a small army, there's no way that staff if going to be able to deal with, no matter how many chose to arm themselves. They are not police, nor for that matter the US Army. :rolleyes:

Realistically if given the option of training and safe places to keep weapons; I bet most schools would find 1-3 out of every 15 teachers/staff or so willing to do so. One does not make up 'worse case scenarios' for schools, other than for after a homicidal suicider has breached the building or entered a playground. While Columbine had a pair, usually this is a one man op, just like someone hellbent on assassinating the president. Just as rare.

Most schools today seem to have basic precautions in place for keeping the 'bad guys' out, within reason. If reason doesn't prevail, as at Sandy Hook, having one, two, or three trained staff could prevent or at least slow down a shooter to buy the minutes for the police. Could 'innocents' be harmed by the gunfire? Goes without saying, but keep in mind that they did have the 'seconds or minutes' in the office to know someone was trying to breach, seconds where thinking does kick in. Thus the adults pursuing the 'bad guy.' If one of them had been armed, would it have made a difference? One must say, possibly.

Speaking of teachers, schools, arming staff with tazers, pepper spray, long guns, etc? No.

[Kathianne]

But the public panicking at large is still affecting those children, plus other all across the country. My bet is that all of the children in Sandy Hook have been sent to counseling, without waiting to see if they actually need therapy, or if they maybe just need a hug from their parents and a good cry.

One of the first things I was taught by mom in first aid was essentially the Hippocratic oath. She taught me to observe, and make certain that I was not making the situation worse. The same is true in almost any crisis, to be certain that the actions you take do not worsen the situation, because yes, sometimes the worst thing you can do is involve yourself, and that is the hardest lesson for us to learn.

It's a little strange, but people don't fear an assault rifle as much as they fear a shotgun. My thought is that it's the cocking sound when you chamber a round. It's so incredibly distinctive, it cause you to automatically pay attention to it.

I agree, surprisingly. Not all kids need counseling if they have a good support system at home, which it seems most of these students do. Indeed, there's an argument to be made that the 'specialists' would be far better advised to observe and find the most vulnerable amongst that population. The shooter would have been one, if he'd been a 'survivor' in the scenario he wrought.
Healthy children have an incredible ability to overcome the most difficult situations.

[Gaffer]

The attack by a large organized mob of gunmen has already occurred back in the 90's in Russia. Chechnian separatists if I remember correctly, also muslims.

[Robert A Whit]

Wow, how deep into your ass did you have to reach for that one?

I don't even think schools should be gun-free zones, but I am flatly against making them fortresses. Your attempt to twist what I said is just weak, and you really need to stop doing that to people. This "with me or against me" crap is a weak way of arguing.

I just laid out the "worst case" scenario, and you have no rebuttal but to attack me. So basically, I'm right, and you have no argument.

As deep as you did when you twisted my comments. I did not call for schools to be fortresses but now that you mention it, why not?

I am not clear why you attacked me just now. Actually, you are not coming out well in your reply. It is not even a thinly veiled attack. It's more blame me. I am not the topic.

I simply told you that you could have added to this discussion rather than blast me for my remarks. Did you think I would not notice the heat from your blast?

I believe I HAD stated that arming teachers is a good idea. That handing them a gun is not enough. That not all teachers would be armed is a given. No rational human believes you can put a gun into the hands of a teacher that is against guns. I don't know what your beef is but clearly you have a beef.

[Robert A Whit]

Doesn't matter. Completely immaterial to the worst-case scenario. The killers came in too quickly for a proper response, some of the staff accidentally kill another in the crossfire, and the killers now have more guns, way to go.

Again, the "worst case" is that your attempts to stop things from happening only make it worse. Come on, give me more ammo. The point is, you're completely missing what I'm saying.

I want to know something.

What makes you such an authority? Were you designated the hit man on my posts? You want to make this about ME. I am not the topic. And you assumption has holes in it. Come on, your actually going to tell me you think a dozen men will rush a school to kill children?

Can you give me any examples of more than 2 boys doing something like that?

What is your goal?

My goal is to offer comments trying to protect children. Your goal seems to satisfy some beef you appear to have with me. I base this on a number of your snotty remarks.

Back off. Not a good time for you to pick a fight with me.

[DragonStryk72]

As deep as you did when you twisted my comments. I did not call for schools to be fortresses but now that you mention it, why not?

I am not clear why you attacked me just now. Actually, you are not coming out well in your reply. It is not even a thinly veiled attack. It's more blame me. I am not the topic.

I simply told you that you could have added to this discussion rather than blast me for my remarks. Did you think I would not notice the heat from your blast?

I believe I HAD stated that arming teachers is a good idea. That handing them a gun is not enough. That not all teachers would be armed is a given. No rational human believes you can put a gun into the hands of a teacher that is against guns. I don't know what your beef is but clearly you have a beef.

Because no parents would send their child to it. Thus you have succeeded in putting people out of work, and decreasing the community. Way to go.

you said worst case scenario. If you don't know what the term means, then don't damn well use it.

[DragonStryk72]

I want to know something.

What makes you such an authority? Were you designated the hit man on my posts? You want to make this about ME. I am not the topic. And you assumption has holes in it. Come on, your actually going to tell me you think a dozen men will rush a school to kill children?

Can you give me any examples of more than 2 boys doing something like that?

What is your goal?

My goal is to offer comments trying to protect children. Your goal seems to satisfy some beef you appear to have with me. I base this on a number of your snotty remarks.

Back off. Not a good time for you to pick a fight with me.

You said dozen killers. I went with it. Don't use what you don't want people to bring up.

[Kathianne]

I want to know something.

What makes you such an authority? Were you designated the hit man on my posts? You want to make this about ME. I am not the topic. And you assumption has holes in it. Come on, your actually going to tell me you think a dozen men will rush a school to kill children?

Can you give me any examples of more than 2 boys doing something like that?

What is your goal?

My goal is to offer comments trying to protect children. Your goal seems to satisfy some beef you appear to have with me. I base this on a number of your snotty remarks.

Back off. Not a good time for you to pick a fight with me.

No one has is trying to 'pick a fight' with you. You set up straw man argument, saying teachers should be armed not only with conceal carry weapons, but pepper spray, long guns, tazers, then when anyone questions the scenario you built, you fall back on the probable case scenario.

On two threads now you've done the same and slime anyone who answers, accusing them of trying to make 'you' look bad. That dog don't hunt.

[Robert A Whit]

I agree. If a school is being 'attacked' by a small army, there's no way that staff if going to be able to deal with, no matter how many chose to arm themselves. They are not police, nor for that matter the US Army. :rolleyes:

Realistically if given the option of training and safe places to keep weapons; I bet most schools would find 1-3 out of every 15 teachers/staff or so willing to do so. One does not make up 'worse case scenarios' for schools, other than for after a homicidal suicider has breached the building or entered a playground. While Columbine had a pair, usually this is a one man op, just like someone hellbent on assassinating the president. Just as rare.

Most schools today seem to have basic precautions in place for keeping the 'bad guys' out, within reason. If reason doesn't prevail, as at Sandy Hook, having one, two, or three trained staff could prevent or at least slow down a shooter to buy the minutes for the police. Could 'innocents' be harmed by the gunfire? Goes without saying, but keep in mind that they did have the 'seconds or minutes' in the office to know someone was trying to breach, seconds where thinking does kick in. Thus the adults pursuing the 'bad guy.' If one of them had been armed, would it have made a difference? One must say, possibly.

Speaking of teachers, schools, arming staff with tazers, pepper spray, long guns, etc? No.

I too don't agree that a dozen armed men will storm school to kill students. Were a group to assemble, it would be noticed. A dozen highly armed men would be a serious chore for cops to deal with. And the army is not going to be there to count on. It would take maybe a day to get many of an army to show up. Cops are more available.

Still, there was no reason to attack me over my comments as he did. I don't know what dragon's beef is since he makes claims about ME that are not appropriate.

I said we need layers of defense to protect the studens and the teachers. We can't ignore teachers and other staff.

I expected debate on some of my ideas. I am open to debate. I am not open to ME being turned into the topic and being attacked. Dragon crossed the line.

I agree with your comments. If we buy 5 minutes for teachers and staff, that means the cops might show up in force.

If we protrect the teachers as we protect cops, teachers who ar willing can perform a vital life saving service. Teachers are not of one mind. A lot no doubt would shun holding a gun. They hate guns. No rational system puts a gun into the hands of the unwilling. But that teacher who shuns guns might not shun pepper spray or a taser.

The principal was early to confront the killer. What if she was armed. She could have protected herself and of course other teachers and the kids.

My goal is to stop killers and save the kids.

I don't like being attacked since that is my goal.

And no Kath, you did not attack me.

[Robert A Whit]

No one has is trying to 'pick a fight' with you. You set up straw man argument, saying teachers should be armed not only with conceal carry weapons, but pepper spray, long guns, tazers, then when anyone questions the scenario you built, you fall back on the probable case scenario.

On two threads now you've done the same and slime anyone who answers, accusing them of trying to make 'you' look bad. That dog don't hunt.

You are wrong. I am correct. Since you butted in, how can you not notice a couple that attacked me? Why are you making this about me again?

It is no strawman in my view to want both teachers and students to be protected. If cops can protect them, how do they do it? They come to campus with guns. Suippose you armed only 1 out of ten cops. Think that over. I am not saying to arm teachers not willing to be armed, but if you have a gunman or two of them, one has to believe the gunmen have to realize that they may die before they get off a shot. I want gunmen to fear attacking schools. What is wrong with that?

Kath, I don't wish to make you the topic. But for some rather odd reason, you wish to make me the topic. Why is that?

[Kathianne]

I too don't agree that a dozen armed men will storm school to kill students. Were a group to assemble, it would be noticed. A dozen highly armed men would be a serious chore for cops to deal with. And the army is not going to be there to count on. It would take maybe a day to get many of an army to show up. Cops are more available.

Still, there was no reason to attack me over my comments as he did. I don't know what dragon's beef is since he makes claims about ME that are not appropriate.

I said we need layers of defense to protect the studens and the teachers. We can't ignore teachers and other staff.

I expected debate on some of my ideas. I am open to debate. I am not open to ME being turned into the topic and being attacked. Dragon crossed the line.

I agree with your comments. If we buy 5 minutes for teachers and staff, that means the cops might show up in force.

If we protrect the teachers as we protect cops, teachers who ar willing can perform a vital life saving service. Teachers are not of one mind. A lot no doubt would shun holding a gun. They hate guns. No rational system puts a gun into the hands of the unwilling. But that teacher who shuns guns might not shun pepper spray or a taser.

The principal was early to confront the killer. What if she was armed. She could have protected herself and of course other teachers and the kids.

My goal is to stop killers and save the kids.

I don't like being attacked since that is my goal.

And no Kath, you did not attack me.

First the bolded. You have a unique perspective on messageboards, being 'attacked' is not the primary purpose of anyone. Those that are, tend to bring it upon themselves, repeatedly.

As for the content, the idea that one puts forth a cafeteria menu for teachers/staff in a school, is nonsensical from the get go.

The only reason to be discussing this topic at all is lethal threat to children/school staff. The only possible response is lethal. As stated, school staff at any level are not a police force. 99.9 percent will never deal with any of this. It's so rare, but garners headlines. The price for that small percentage though, is too high.

[Robert A Whit]

You said dozen killers. I went with it. Don't use what you don't want people to bring up.

So it means you have to blast me? Do you know what I want?

I want kids protected. Teachers are on the scene. I can't actually imagine that you can get a gang to attack a school. But should a gang show up, at least I am saying we need to protect teachers and students and what are you saying?

Do you want teachers to be able to defend themselves or what

You came at me full force as if I was against protecting kids. What made you act that way?

[Robert A Whit]

First the bolded. You have a unique perspective on messageboards, being 'attacked' is not the primary purpose of anyone. Those that are, tend to bring it upon themselves, repeatedly.

As for the content, the idea that one puts forth a cafeteria menu for teachers/staff in a school, is nonsensical from the get go.

The only reason to be discussing this topic at all is lethal threat to children/school staff. The only possible response is lethal. As stated, school staff at any level are not a police force. 99.9 percent will never deal with any of this. It's so rare, but garners headlines. The price for that small percentage though, is too high.

I have been attacked. I can name dozens of posters who have replied to me, thanked me, built my reputation that have not one time attacked me.

I blame a tiny fringe who seem hell bent to make it personal. They bring out my replies back to them. If they don't want me to defend, they need to end attacks.

I have chaired many committees. I work very well with groups of people. I realize how to seek ideas. I was asking for help not to be mocked or ridiculed.

I have suggested remedies is all. No reason to make it personal as Dragon did.

You are alleging my concept of having teachers decide if they want to be armed is nonsense.

Again, why do you claim it is nonsense?

I agree that a won't happen to over 99 percent of schools.

We can't roll our eyes and toss up our hands and say we can't do something that helps teachers save their lives and students lives. This forum won't change a thing in government. I know that. But posters ideas need not be mocked either just to satisfy some posters ego.


This is what I believe will happen. School districts will sit and discuss this issue.
They will look over their budgets. They will pose to teachers if they want arms at school.

I see this as a local issue. Schools that feel they may be in danger will take action. Some schools may figure it can't happen to them. They won't change a thing. Till next time.

[Kathianne]

I have been attacked. I can name dozens of posters who have replied to me, thanked me, built my reputation that have not one time attacked me.

I blame a tiny fringe who seem hell bent to make it personal. They bring out my replies back to them. If they don't want me to defend, they need to end attacks. No one needs to respond to your paranoia. That some of us do, to ridicule your paranoia, is not required, just a bonus.


I have chaired many committees. I work very well with groups of people. I realize how to seek ideas. I was asking for help not to be mocked or ridiculed.

I have suggested remedies is all. No reason to make it personal as Dragon did. If you act in committees as you do on this board, you were either tone deaf or the other members decided to leave you out of the loop.

Your remedies are outside the realm of practical or constructive on this issue.


You are alleging my concept of having teachers decide if they want to be armed is nonsense.

Again, why do you claim it is nonsense? Well except that wasn't what I said, from the get go. I disagreed with your program of making a paramilitary force within schools. Not the place, not the personnel, not their job. Believe it or not, the proper use of tazers, even pepper spray to disarm someone, not just ward off an attack, takes training. So does the use of guns, which is why if some staff volunteers agree, the training should be provided. However, the staff doesn't need 50 hours of other training in tazers and other non-lethal force weapons. That's for the police.


I agree that a won't happen to over 99 percent of schools.

We can't roll our eyes and toss up our hands and say we can't do something that helps teachers save their lives and students lives. This forum won't change a thing in government. I know that. But posters ideas need not be mocked either just to satisfy some posters ego.


This is what I believe will happen. School districts will sit and discuss this issue.
They will look over their budgets. They will pose to teachers if they want arms at school.

I see this as a local issue. Schools that feel they may be in danger will take action. Some schools may figure it can't happen to them. They won't change a thing. Till next time.

When a school is attacked by a paramilitary force of a dozen, give or take, I agree, they will not be able to overcome.

When that day arrives, school days will be the least of our problems.

[Robert A Whit]

Kathianne says "I agree. If a school is being 'attacked' by a small army, there's no way that staff if going to be able to deal with, no matter how many chose to arm themselves. They are not police, nor for that matter the US Army. :rolleyes:"

Maybe I taxed a couple of brains too much by speaking of a dozen attackers. I did not intend to claim that attacks are in fact by a dozen. I believe that there are limits to what can be done to protect both staff and students. Since this is a forum of ideas, I see no good purpose to mock posters ideas. There is too much of that here. As Jim says, it probably won't stop. But on some topics, that mocking may be a way to end discussion. It sure did not make me feel like adding to the discussion as to how to save students and staff of schools.

Since the past school events normally deals with 1 or maybe 2 attackers, any idea that schools can put to use to save lives is a good idea. Maybe some will think the idea has no merit. But we won't make those decisions.

Those who manage schools will meet and decide for their schools.

I suspect as a school I heard of in TX have chosen to arm the school we can use such schools as a way to measure if it works or not

[Robert A Whit]

Kath, please leave me out of your discussions. I have decided that you won't change.
Since you lead with attacks against me, I will from now on shun you.

You keep making this personal.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I assume you smart people know that the NRA announced a program.

Naturally as expected, Democrats flock forth to attack the idea of armed security at schools.

If you suggested to Democrats, all armed security surrounding Obama be removed immediately, they would burst forth enmasse with a cacaphony to deafen you to say HELL NO.

I was surprised by the NRA, but think about the idea. It makes perfect sense.

Protect the chilren by security at school. Many schools due to student violence do have cops. We don't hear of mass killings at those schools. They are protected by cops. We don't need cops at school if there are some designated armed people that protect the students. Arming the teachers may or may not be the right way. We might not want every teacher armed. The idea is that the school is known to have protection.

Any ideas about this are welcome.

Since no link was provided, I found one.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/21/nra-schools-armed-guards/1784619/



In an effort to prevent future tragedies, LaPierre announced the formation of National School Shield Emergency Response Program that would help schools prepare for potential threats. Former representative Asa Hutchinson, R-Ark., will lead that program, LaPierre said.


Hutchinson said the new initiative will employ independent security experts to help school officials, parents and communities craft "a comprehensive strategy for school security" and all them to tailor it to their needs – including armed security personnel.

"School safety is a complex issue with no simple, single solution," he said. "But I believe trained, qualified, armed security is one key component among many that can provide the first line of deterrence as well as the last line of defense."



Sounds to me like the NRA is saying that is one piece of the puzzle, not the best/only solution. Sounds reasonable to me.

[Kathianne]

Kath, please leave me out of your discussions. I have decided that you won't change.
Since you lead with attacks against me, I will from now on shun you.

You keep making this personal.

and once again you find yourself attacking those that are calling you out. Not my problem. I look forward to your 'shunning.'

[Robert A Whit]

By Kathianne "When a school is attacked by a paramilitary force of a dozen, give or take, I agree, they will not be able to overcome.

When that day arrives, school days will be the least of our problems."

Since this part is not an attack on me or my comments, again let me clarify. I don't for one instant see an actual attack by a group of disgruntled people who collected together to assualt a school to kill students and teachers.

There seems to me to be only a couple of posters who resist the idea of helping schools operater in self defense. At least it appears that way based on the shunning of some of my ideas. I am not vested in my own ideas. If they are wrong, schools will refuse to use any of my ideas. This did not have to be about me. Matter of fact, I can only name two posters who decided it was about me. To the point it got personal again.

School districts all over the USA will meet to decide. If they feel the need to be armed, they will arm. If they don't want arms, they won't obtain arms.

There was no need to post as if i decide policy for all schools. I don't decide policy for any school.

And calling me paranoid evades the way I get attacked. 99 percent of posters do not attack me. Even when they don't agree, they speak in a tone, a manner that shows they want to discuss. Trying to act as if I am the bad guy ... that dog don't hunt. I am not the problem.
I REACT. When some person makes it personal, I REACT to defend myself. I don't want to attack any poster nor make it about them.

That should be very easy to understand.

[Robert A Whit]

and once again you find yourself attacking those that are calling you out. Not my problem. I look forward to your 'shunning.'

Though I had not attacked you, it did not stop you from claiming you got attacked. But at last, you admit attacking me in your own words. Admittng your guilt has helped.

YES, you and one or two others make it a habit of this so called calling me out. I spoke to you of this when you started.

You are what is known as a very aggressive poster. All I have ever wanted is peace.

[Robert A Whit]

Since no link was provided, I found one.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/21/nra-schools-armed-guards/1784619/




Sounds to me like the NRA is saying that is one piece of the puzzle, not the best/only solution. Sounds reasonable to me.

I watched the NRA live on TV. What they propose makes perfect sense to me.

Any implementation by schools will only happen at schools that agree they want and need to be self defended.

[Kathianne]

Since this part is not an attack on me or my comments, again let me clarify. I don't for one instant see an actual attack by a group of disgruntled people who collected together to assualt a school to kill students and teachers.

There seems to me to be only a couple of posters who resist the idea of helping schools operater in self defense. At least it appears that way based on the shunning of some of my ideas. I am not vested in my own ideas. If they are wrong, schools will refuse to use any of my ideas. This did not have to be about me. Matter of fact, I can only name two posters who decided it was about me. To the point it got personal again.

School districts all over the USA will meet to decide. If they feel the need to be armed, they will arm. If they don't want arms, they won't obtain arms.

There was no need to post as if i decide policy for all schools. I don't decide policy for any school.

And calling me paranoid evades the way I get attacked. 99 percent of posters do not attack me. Even when they don't agree, they speak in a tone, a manner that shows they want to discuss. Trying to act as if I am the bad guy ... that dog don't hunt. I am not the problem.
I REACT. When some person makes it personal, I REACT to defend myself. I don't want to attack any poster nor make it about them.

That should be very easy to understand.

So much for your shunning, that lasted less than 10 minutes.

Offensive:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?38370-Arm-Teachers&p=601565#post601565

There was another, haven't found it yet; the scenario of 12 worst case attackers. The teachers are to be ready to attack.

[Robert A Whit]

Because no parents would send their child to it. Thus you have succeeded in putting people out of work, and decreasing the community. Way to go.

you said worst case scenario. If you don't know what the term means, then don't damn well use it.

You really got pissed off over the worst case scenario. Frigh it then. Don't worry about a worse case scenario.

I don't propose a school become a fortress. What have you offered to this discussion that leads to more children protected? You love to make it about me, what about your ideas?

Tell me, since you claim that if teachers can self defend themselves and students that parents will shun such schools, why do people like security such as cops and security at sporting events? They don't shun security. Do you really think teachers are the danger to students? That is what I believe you are implying.

[Kathianne]

You really got pissed off over the worst case scenario. Frigh it then. Don't worry about a worse case scenario.

I don't propose a school become a fortress. What have you offered to this discussion that leads to more children protected? You love to make it about me, what about your ideas?

Tell me, since you claim that if teachers can self defend themselves and students that parents will shun such schools, why do people like security such as cops and security at sporting events? They don't shun security. Do you really think teachers are the danger to students? That is what I believe you are implying.

You set up the scenario that others are disagreeing with. That is a straw man you built and are now abandoning, blaming others for attacking.

The right response would be, 'I went overboard, obviously schools should not base their plans on a frontal assault by a paramilitary group. A step too far.' I was perhaps a bit over wrought by the Sandy Hook scene, along with too many other tragedies. Walking it back a bit.'

[Robert A Whit]

You set up the scenario that others are disagreeing with. That is a straw man you built and are now abandoning, blaming others for attacking.

The right response would be, 'I went overboard, obviously schools should not base their plans on a frontal assault by a paramilitary group. A step too far.' I was perhaps a bit over wrought by the Sandy Hook scene, along with too many other tragedies. Walking it back a bit.'

I see. You can't contain that urge to blame can you? It was a damned suggestion. The remarks back to me were way out of bounds. I blame only the couple of posters who attacked. Acorn did not agree yet he managed to not attack. I like his post even though he has elements he does not agree with. Use him for a model.

Stop being ultra aggrsessive. And take responsibility for your own words that by this time you know have genuine impact.

I am no child you can lecture. I don't know what posseses you to keep talking down to me.

As you now admit, I am not wedded to all items in my OP. So carry on.

[Kathianne]

I see. You can't contain that urge to blame can you? It was a damned suggestion. The remarks back to me were way out of bounds. I blame only the couple of posters who attacked. Acorn did not agree yet he managed to not attack. I like his post even though he has elements he does not agree with. Use him for a model.

Stop being ultra aggrsessive. And take responsibility for your own words that by this time you know have genuine impact.

I am no child you can lecture. I don't know what posseses you to keep talking down to me.

As you now admit, I am not wedded to all items in my OP. So carry on.

Read what you wrote and apply to yourself, it was more to you than anyone.

[tailfins]

I see. You can't contain that urge to blame can you? It was a damned suggestion. The remarks back to me were way out of bounds. I blame only the couple of posters who attacked. Acorn did not agree yet he managed to not attack. I like his post even though he has elements he does not agree with. Use him for a model.

Stop being ultra aggrsessive. And take responsibility for your own words that by this time you know have genuine impact.

I am no child you can lecture. I don't know what posseses you to keep talking down to me.

As you now admit, I am not wedded to all items in my OP. So carry on.

I have to ask: How many people have fat-fingered the first letter of your last name by typing one key too low?

[Kathianne]

I have to ask: How many people have fat-fingered the first letter of your last name by typing one key too low?

He truly doesn't see his problem.

[tailfins]

He truly doesn't see his problem.

I'm just playing. I hope you are too.

[Robert A Whit]

I have to ask: How many people have fat-fingered the first letter of your last name by typing one key too low?

None. Are you certain that you want to join in with Kath and her fight?

I offered her the option.

Model on the post made by Acorn. Notice he expressed his disagreement and did not provoke a fight.

I don't slap first. But when slapped, I slap back.

Kath has problems. She even jumped on Abbey and when Abbey asked why, she apologized to Abbey. (different topic should you ask) She is too damned aggressive to posters. That is a problem Kathianne has to cure.

[tailfins]

None. Are you certain that you want to join in with Kath and her fight?

I offered her the option.

Model on the post made by Acorn. Notice he expressed his disagreement and did not provoke a fight.

I don't slap first. But when slapped, I slap back.

Kath has problems. She even jumped on Abbey and when Abbey asked why, she apologized to Abbey. (different topic should you ask) She is too damned aggressive to posters. That is a problem Kathianne has to cure.

For the record, if *I* give you crap, it's intended all in good fun.

[Robert A Whit]

He truly doesn't see his problem.

I see my problem.

Way over 90 percent of posters get along just fine. When they don't agree with me, they are civil. Two, or maybe 3 posters are not civil to me.

Hell, they not only are not civil to me, one insulted Abbey and when Abbey asked why, Abbey then got a much needed apology. And that same woman stalks my posts making remarks to me and about me that are for one purpose only. To mock or maybe she thinks she hurts me in some way.

She needs to stop that awful aggression. She got aggressive with Abbey and I hope it has ended.

[Robert A Whit]

For the record, if *I* give you crap, it's intended all in good fun.

Thanks. If you want to slash and burn, do you mind getting it right back?

[Robert A Whit]

I'm just playing. I hope you are too.

It sure would be nice to see her claim she is only playing.

[Kathianne]

None. Are you certain that you want to join in with Kath and her fight?

I offered her the option.

Model on the post made by Acorn. Notice he expressed his disagreement and did not provoke a fight.

I don't slap first. But when slapped, I slap back.

Kath has problems. She even jumped on Abbey and when Abbey asked why, she apologized to Abbey. (different topic should you ask) She is too damned aggressive to posters. That is a problem Kathianne has to cure.

I'm fairly certain that if there was a problem between Abbey, myself, and you, if I was being reasonable, which I've been, if a push comes to shove, you'll lose. So why go there?

Please tell me you can read this board.

There's been issues before you deigned to grace us with your presence, there will be issues while you post, and if you choose to leave, there will issues when you are gone. You are a blip.

[tailfins]

Thanks. If you want to slash and burn, do you mind getting it right back?

I'm cool with it. If I throw a pie in someone's face, I figure on getting the milk poured over my head. Moral of the story: Don't throw pie in expensive clothes.

[Kathianne]

I find everything about killing kids and prevent such hilarious! So glad the rest of you do too! Mine was sarcastic, not so with you all.

[Robert A Whit]

I'm fairly certain that if there was a problem between Abbey, myself, and you, if I was being reasonable, which I've been, if a push comes to shove, you'll lose. So why go there?

Please tell me you can read this board.

There's been issues before you deigned to grace us with your presence, there will be issues while you post, and if you choose to leave, there will issues when you are gone. You are a blip.

I have bent over backwards trying to find out why you are so god damned aggressive. Even Abbey has had a problem with you. Lucky her, at least you apologized.

For some unknown reason, you love to take out your anger against my posts.

I don't get into these pissing matches with Abbey. She is most gracious.

What is your problem?

Why must you reply with attacks all the time?

I have given you ample opportunity to back off. But for some damned reason, you intend to stay planted in my face.

What is worse, you deny you even do it.

I don't accuse Abbey of doing this. I only accuse a couple of posters. Could you please stop being the problem.

I don't mind your solution. But harassing me is not a solution. You accuse me of stalking. Then you do it.

[tailfins]

I find everything about killing kids and prevent such hilarious! So glad the rest of you do too! Mine was sarcastic, not so with you all.

People at a funeral could use a good joke.

[Robert A Whit]

I'm cool with it. If I throw a pie in someone's face, I figure on getting the milk poured over my head. Moral of the story: Don't throw pie in expensive clothes.

I think most posters don't use their real names because behind a fake name, they can taunt, insult, harass and more. I use my name though not my full last name. I would even have used my last name but for limits on how long names can be. Jim knows my entire name.

When we act like children to taunt each other, it says more about the taunter than the taunted.

[Kathianne]

People at a funeral could use a good joke.

Not really. They can use a word or two to make them smile. Just talked to a 30 year friend of my dad today. He spoke of his words like today. Dad's been gone 7 years now. God, I miss him.

[tailfins]

I think most posters don't use their real names because behind a fake name, they can taunt, insult, harass and more. I use my name though not my full last name. I would even have used my last name but for limits on how long names can be. Jim knows my entire name.

When we act like children to taunt each other, it says more about the taunter than the taunted.


That's like being proud of showing your hand in a poker game. I guess you could claim you're giving the other players a handicap. No one who has minor children in the home should post personally identifiable information; it invites the likes of Adam Lanza.

[SassyLady]

The attack by a large organized mob of gunmen has already occurred back in the 90's in Russia. Chechnian separatists if I remember correctly, also muslims.

More recently:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis

The Beslan school hostage crisis (also referred to as the Beslan school siege or Beslan massacre)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#cite_note-legacy-4) of early September 2004 lasted three days and involved the capture of over 1,100 people as hostages (including 777 children),[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#cite_note-unicef-5) ending with the death of over 380 people.

The crisis began when a group of armed Islamic separatist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist)militants, mostly Ingush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingush_people) and Chechen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_people), occupied School Number One (SNO) in the town of Beslan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan), North Ossetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ossetia%E2%80%93Alania) (an autonomous republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_republic) in the North Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Caucasus) region of the Russian Federation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia)) on 1 September 2004.

The hostage-takers were the Riyadus-Salikhin Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riyadus-Salikhin_Reconnaissance_and_Sabotage_Battalion_of_ Chechen_Martyrs), sent by the Chechen separatist warlord Shamil Basayev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamil_Basayev), who demanded recognition of the independence of Chechnya at the UN and Russian withdrawal from Chechnya.

On the third day of the standoff, Russian security forces entered the building with the use of tanks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank), incendiary rockets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPO-A_Shmel_(Bumblebee)) and other heavy weapons.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#cite_note-Satter-6)

At least 334 hostages were killed as a result of the crisis, including 186 children,[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#cite_note-last_casualty-7)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis#cite_note-8) with a significant number of people injured and reported missing.

[Robert A Whit]

Not really. They can use a word or two to make them smile. Just talked to a 30 year friend of my dad today. He spoke of his words like today. Dad's been gone 7 years now. God, I miss him.

Mom died too early in 1980 (age 59) and suddenly with no warning. Dad in Dec 1976. And like you, I miss my parents so much. Dad suffered in the AM a massive bleeding in his head and by 3 AM the next morning he was gone. No idea it could happen to him.

I was posting on an AOL forum and a professor from TX was posting there too. And suddenly one day, we got word he died. I looked it up and found an article talking about him dying and his job at the university. I had a poster, also on AOL that used to fight me like you do. Her and I took it to e mail and became super friends. She died last year too. God I miss her too. I never met her in person. But We got to know each other very well.

[Robert A Whit]

tailfuck


That's like being proud of showing your hand in a poker game. I guess you could claim you're giving the other players a handicap. No one who has minor children in the home should post personally identifiable information; it invites the likes of Adam Lanza.

I suppose those of you thinking that way see it that way.

[Gaffer]

More recently:

Thanks sassy, that's the one I was thinking of, but thought it was late 90's.

[SassyLady]

Thanks sassy, that's the one I was thinking of, but thought it was late 90's.

You were close ... and that's all that counts when you get to be as old as we are!!

[Gaffer]

You were close ... and that's all that counts when you get to be as old as we are!!

Yep, we have a lot more memories to sift through, and dates get in the way. :laugh:

[Kathianne]

The attack by a large organized mob of gunmen has already occurred back in the 90's in Russia. Chechnian separatists if I remember correctly, also muslims.

True, but that was a terrorist attack not the same as a school attack as suicide with fame. Did I miss something here?

[Gaffer]

True, but that was a terrorist attack not the same as a school attack as suicide with fame. Did I miss something here?

You missed nothing. I was responding to the comment about a large group attacking a school. I was just stating that it has been done.

[Kathianne]

You missed nothing. I was responding to the comment about a large group attacking a school. I was just stating that it has been done.

Thanks. I thought this was perhaps a response to Robert's 'worst case scenario' at a school and his suggestion that schools should prepare for worst? I don't think that schools can or should prepare for such, indeed if schools become target for terrorists, parents will stop sending their offspring to school.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Thanks sassy, that's the one I was thinking of, but thought it was late 90's.

I find myself with the same problem Gaffer. Often can remember vividly incidents in life and in the news but the exact date eludes me. Usually lucky if I can get the year right. However 99% of the time if it involved my direct participation I can remember the date exactly or at least the year and month. This getting old , sho' ain't all that its cracked up to be but I'm not a big fan of the alternative myself.-;)-Tyr

[Kathianne]

As I said previously, the districts I work in already have armed police at all middle and high schools. I'm not sure on grammar schools, I don't sub below 6th grade.

However, they are not at the doors, which is where shooters are the problem:

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/marlboro-new-jersey-armed-guards-schools-newtown-nra-reaction-184514471.html



New Jersey Town Plans to Place Armed Guards in Schools The mayor of Marlboro Township in New Jersey said Friday there would be armed security guards at the district's nine schools starting in January
By Andrew Siff (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/results/?keywords=%22Andrew+Siff%22&byline=y&sort=date) | Monday, Dec 24, 2012...

On the same day the National Rifle Association spoke publicly for the first time since last week's elementary school massacre in Connecticut, one local school district announced plans to place armed police officers in every school.


The mayor of Marlboro Township in New Jersey said Friday there would be armed security guards at the district's nine schools starting in January.

"This is not such a major change-- we're not putting in SWAT teams," said Mayor Jon Hornik.

Hornik, who has three school-aged children, told NBC 4 New York he was still shaken from the Newtown shooting, and he "hasn't stopped hugging" his five-year-old.

He statements about safety and protecting children echoed those made by the NRA earlier in the day.

"Just like what happened on 9/11-- air travel changed," he said. "In my opinion last Friday, school security changed, and you can sit by and hope that it doesn't happen at your school or you can take action."

The NRA's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, suggested armed guards be placed at every school.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," he said.

...

[Robert A Whit]

Thanks. I thought this was perhaps a response to Robert's 'worst case scenario' at a school and his suggestion that schools should prepare for worst? I don't think that schools can or should prepare for such, indeed if schools become target for terrorists, parents will stop sending their offspring to school.

Oh hell no. We can't and MUST not protect students and staff at schools.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Kathianne]

Oh hell no. We can't and MUST not protect students and staff at schools.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Not for terrorists attacks you ninny. Honestly, how paranoid are you?

[Robert A Whit]

Somebody tell me the difference in a cop and an armed teacher or staff of a school please?

Assume you are the shooter and you come face to face with either the cop or the willing to carry teacher or staff?

I am not like Kath. I happen to feel that in each school there likely is a willing teacher able to carry. Sassy sure is willing to protect herself and I bet she damned sure could protect students were she teaching in schools. I keep asking myself, is it that she lives in the Chicago area that makes her so damned aggressive when it comes to me? They say give peace a chance. I even apologized. No effect what so ever.

[Kathianne]

Somebody tell me the difference in a cop and an armed teacher or staff of a school please?

Assume you are the shooter and you come face to face with either the cop or the willing to carry teacher or staff?

I am not like Kath. I happen to feel that in each school there likely is a willing teacher able to carry. Sassy sure is willing to protect herself and I bet she damned sure could protect students were she teaching in schools. I keep asking myself, is it that she lives in the Chicago area that makes her so damned aggressive when it comes to me? They say give peace a chance. I even apologized. No effect what so ever.

Actually, if you read what others posted instead of making up out of whole cloth, you'd see that I too was for arming voluntary staff. I also stated that at most schools, at least 1-3 per 15 staff member would likely be willing.

You are so involved with your own perceptions of yourself and your 'visions' that you ignore all else. That is why you are stuck some place of 50 years ago.

[Robert A Whit]

Not for terrorists attacks you ninny. Honestly, how paranoid are you?

Something is seriously wrong in your life. More than what you admit to. Did you see me use the word terrorist?

Go look.

Back yet?

See, I did not.

You operated as if I have the power to edict that all schools arm all teachers, yadda yadda.

My god, did you ever get pissed off. Enough so you are back to name calling.

[Kathianne]

Something is seriously wrong in your life. More than what you admit to. Did you see me use the word terrorist?

Go look.

Back yet?

See, I did not.

You operated as if I have the power to edict that all schools arm all teachers, yadda yadda.

My god, did you ever get pissed off. Enough so you are back to name calling.

Your 'worst case scenario' is nothing but a terror attack. D'oh.

[Robert A Whit]

Actually, if you read what others posted instead of making up out of whole cloth, you'd see that I too was for arming voluntary staff. I also stated that at most schools, at least 1-3 per 15 staff member would likely be willing.

You are so involved with your own perceptions of yourself and your 'visions' that you ignore all else. That is why you are stuck some place of 50 years ago.

Hell, if you think it got done to you, read your posts where you did it to me only worse.

Kath, this is not about me. And it would not be about you if you got rid of that damned aggression.

And you constantly belittle me by acting as if I don't read others posts. I damned sure read all of them.

I called for armed schools and you had a god damned fit about it.

[Robert A Whit]

Your 'worst case scenario' is nothing but a terror attack. D'oh.

I was asking some fucking questions nit wit. God damned you are so dense. And you seem to think you are the board authority on far too much.

[Kathianne]

Hell, if you think it got done to you, read your posts where you did it to me only worse.

Kath, this is not about me. And it would not be about you if you got rid of that damned aggression.

And you constantly belittle me by acting as if I don't read others posts. I damned sure read all of them.

I called for armed schools and you had a god damned fit about it.

Once again, totally leave behind the topic and build strawman.

You seem to have comprehension issues, more likely personality disorder.

[Robert A Whit]

Read it and read it. I said nothing for you to drift off the rails. I plan to post next the post where I tried to ask questions over how well to arm schools.

(I apologize for all bold but I tried to unbold the below but could not.)



NRA wants armed security at schools
I assume you smart people know that the NRA announced a program.

Naturally as expected, Democrats flock forth to attack the idea of armed security at schools.

If you suggested to Democrats, all armed security surrounding Obama be removed immediately, they would burst forth enmasse with a cacaphony to deafen you to say HELL NO.

I was surprised by the NRA, but think about the idea. It makes perfect sense.

Protect the chilren by security at school. Many schools due to student violence do have cops. We don't hear of mass killings at those schools. They are protected by cops. We don't need cops at school if there are some designated armed people that protect the students. Arming the teachers may or may not be the right way. We might not want every teacher armed. The idea is that the school is known to have protection.

Any ideas about this are welcome.

<!-- edit note -->
Last edited by Robert A Whit; 12-21-2012 at 08:58 AM. <!-- / edit note -->

[Kathianne]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?38370-Arm-Teachers

[Robert A Whit]

So long as they must have extensive background searches, qualification, training and other such things to know the best are being placed in there. I wouldn't want some green guy in there that's really never fired a weapon. If they fit the criteria, I would have no problem with schools being armed. Do I think it would stop every last incident, if someone was hell bent on getting around them? Nope. But the odds increase dramatically that they could help in some way if not stop any deaths from happening at all. In other words, I don't see what it could hurt, other than funding. I think our children are worth it, and also a small cost considering it would go towards preserving our rights.

Banning guns, and not allowing the guards in school = still armed criminals out there and no one can help prevent such attacks or minimize.

And I second what Jim of NYC stated.