Apostasy: “Whoever changes his (Islamic) religion, kill him”, by Abdallah al-Araby

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy-whoever-changes-his-islamic-religion-kill-him/

From a former Muslim, on apostasy in Islam.



For fourteen centuries, Muslims were able to conceal some of their most outrageous teachings from the rest of the world. Their deceptions were hidden behind language, cultural and geographic barriers. Modern technology and new communication methods have made it difficult for Muslims to hide the dark side of Islam any longer. Muslim advocates, especially in the West, are now faced with the tough task of explaining the discrepancies between how they want Islam perceived as a tolerant, civil and peaceful religion ; and the realities of some of its basic tenets, which are quite the opposite. They’re finding it hard to maintain the façades and to simultaneously remain faithful to the harsh doctrines that are essential to the practices of authentic Islam.


Damage control has become one of their main objectives in modern societies. It’s not unusual for various types of contradictions to happen as they do so. This was recently demonstrated by some rulings made by Sheikh Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt. He is Egypt’s superior authority in charge of issuing official fatwas (Islamic religious rulings).
Ali Gomaa issued a wide range of opinions on critical issues of Islam such as Jihad, women’s status and the right of Muslims to change religions. News agencies around the world published them in multiple languages. In regard to a Muslim’s right to renounce Islam and to join another religion that is called apostasy, his initial rulings sounded lenient. The Washington Post-Newsweek forum in English was one of the forums that published his decisions...

I had hopes that Islam was softening its extreme attitudes towards those who leave Islam. It seemed that the Grand Mufti was emphasizing that Muslims do have the freedom to change religions...

My hopes were soon shattered. A few days later, the Grand Mufti, issued another statement. This time he was speaking in Arabic in Cairo and what he said was completely different : “What I actually said was that Islam prohibits a Muslim from changing his religion and it’s a crime that must be punished.”

It was then that I realized that we had all been fooled, again. The Muslim strategy of only speaking half-truths was still alive and well. What is being said in places like Washington to English speaking groups is almost simultaneously retracted and rendered meaningless when they speak in Arabic in places like Cairo. What was originally presented as simply a rare and remote possible exception had become the general rule. Changing religions from Islam to another faith is interpreted as an act of apostasy. The Islamic mindset dictates that such apostasies can undermine the foundations of Muslim societies.



In order to cover the contradictions between the tone of the verses written in Mecca and those written in Medina, Mohammad came up with the doctrine of the abrogator and the abrogated. It nullifies the Quran’s Meccan revelations and replaces them with those of Medina. When Islamists quote the Mecca verses that sound peaceful and conciliatory they know full well that those verses have been rendered obsolete by the more recent Medinian verses.


Apostasy in Islam is equal to treason. In Islam, politics and religion are inseparably intertwined. A famous fundamental expression in Islam says it all, “Islam is a religion and a state.” It is obvious that treason within Islam has spiritual and cultural dimensions. It does not write-off the public rejection of its fundamentals as merely private matters of personal preference in regard to religion. Such actions are viewed as bad influences on Islamic societies as a whole that could escalate into widespread seditions. That is why they deal with it so harshly. So, death for treason is the exact same charge/punishment as death for apostasy, no separation of the two.


This article has stated the truth about what Islam teaches about apostasy. It has said things that you will never hear about from moderate Muslims. Many inquiring souls in the West venture into Islam. Such people naively think that there is no harm in trying it out to see whether or not it is a religion that suits them. They presume it’s easy in and easy out. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Islamists are very deceptive about the matter. They claim that there is freedom of religion in Islam. When you press them on the issue they say that people are free to join Islam or not. But, do people have the same freedom to leave Islam, if they later discovered that this is not what they wanted ? The answer is clear ; people have the right to either reject or accept Islam when it’s initially presented but it is practically impossible to get out of Islam without putting one’s own life at risks.


This last part above seems like a perfect description of our fellow poster, the Jahil.

[jafar00]

http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy-whoever-changes-his-islamic-religion-kill-him/

From a former Muslim, on apostasy in Islam.








So, death for treason is the exact same charge/punishment as death for apostasy, no separation of the two.




This last part above seems like a perfect description of our fellow poster, the Jahil.

If what you are trying to push is true (how many hours did you waste looking for clues?) Mohammed Higazi and others like him would have been executed for leaving Islam instead of having their day in court to try and get their ID card religion changed.


In 2008 Christian convert Mohammed Higazi was not allowed to have his identity changed to register his change of religion from Islam to Christianity. During a trial to have his religion changed on his identity papers, the opposing lawyer made death threats against Mr Higazi for converting to Christianity. The judge made no objection to these statements and expressed his loathing of the accused because of his conversion. The judge stated that he would never let Higazy be registered as a Christian. He defended his decision by saying that Islam is the principal religion in Egypt.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_identification_card_controversy#cite_note-11)

It has already been established that there is no worldly punishment for leaving Islam. Why do you keep trying to promote a lie?

[avatar4321]

It seems to me that if God wanted someone dead, He could make them dead. "Vengeance is mine saith the Lord." It was one of the first instructions to mankind. And spoken of in the matter of the worst villian, the first murderer, who killed his bother to obtain his wealth.

If God told the people not to kill him, then shouldn't those who leave the faith be left in the hands of God? Who knows, perhaps the person who leaves may return. If you murder him, he may not get the chance to.

[jafar00]

If God told the people not to kill him, then shouldn't those who leave the faith be left in the hands of God? Who knows, perhaps the person who leaves may return. If you murder him, he may not get the chance to.

God talks about people who believe then lose faith then believe again then leave the faith again and again in the Qur'aan

Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way. (4:137)

It doesn't take much to put 2+2 together and realise that with that verse alone, a worldy punishment for apostasy is not possible otherwise, how could someone reject faith again and again? They would have been killed the first time! I'm glad Marcus isn't in charge of making any laws. ;)

[darin]

^^ Hey brother - do you know any Muslims who would continue in the faith if Allah offered NO eternal reward?

[Marcus Aurelius]

...It has already been established that there is no worldly punishment for leaving Islam. Why do you keep trying to promote a lie?

It has not been established. You have claimed it continually, and other posters like myself continually show you real world examples of the fact you are wrong. You appear to be either too stupid, or too brainwashed, to accept reality.


God talks about people who believe then lose faith then believe again then leave the faith again and again in the Qur'aan

Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way. (4:137)

It doesn't take much to put 2+2 together and realise that with that verse alone, a worldy punishment for apostasy is not possible otherwise, how could someone reject faith again and again? They would have been killed the first time! I'm glad Marcus isn't in charge of making any laws. ;)


Jahil...

In order to cover the contradictions between the tone of the verses written in Mecca and those written in Medina, Mohammad came up with the doctrine of the abrogator and the abrogated. It nullifies the Quran’s Meccan revelations and replaces them with those of Medina. When Islamists quote the Mecca verses that sound peaceful and conciliatory they know full well that those verses have been rendered obsolete by the more recent Medinian verses.

who does the bolded parts below sound like???


http://www.bibleprobe.com/islamapostates.htm

Free At Last
2005/02/26

Apostate Success

I was born in an Islamic country to Muslim parents, but I was raised in the United States. Throughout my life, I considered myself to be a Muslim, and I maintained a large arsenal of uninformed apologies, explanations, and blind denials to promote and defend Islam. Of course, I had never once read the Qur'an, and I had relied exclusively on what I heard from my parents, my relatives, my Muslim friends, and the Islamic media.

Then one day, at the age of 26, I decided to read the Qur'an so that I could become a "better Muslim." The first three pages alone shocked me with their illogic and obvious contradictions with the constant claim that Allah was the "most merciful" and "most compassionate," but I closed my eyes, gritted my teeth, held on tightly, and pushed ahead with absolute certainty that it would all be explained and would get better. However, it only got worse -- much worse. After reading the Qur'an, I realized that I couldn't possibly endorse Islam as a religion, as a philosophy, as a moral standard, as an ethical code, or even as useful fiction. I determined that these philosophies and this image of Allah could only come from an extremely warped and disturbed person who suffered from an aggregation of the most severe and profound human weaknesses.

Since 1996, I've read and re-read the Qur'an and the Hadiths (which are even worse than the Qur'an), and I've always reached the same conclusion -- Islam is an absolute disaster for the entire world, for Christians, for Jews, for pagans, for atheists, for women, for children, and, most of all, for Muslims themselves.

I've discussed Islam's fundamental weaknesses endlessly with many relatives and friends, and nobody has ever been able to respond in any meaningful way. Nobody has ever been able to manufacture any legitimate story that indicates that Islam is a useful or positive force on this earth. From the Islamic apologists, I hear that somehow the Jews are responsible for my betrayal. I hear that I've been "brainwashed" by the media, which, according to them, is Jewish. I hear that I need to understand Islamic "history" to understand that the unlimited illogic, cruelty, internal inconsistency, and injustice. I hear that somebody, somewhere in some distant Islamic country could validly answer my questions, but the people I speak with can say only that there is some good explanation, but that they don't know enough to tell me. Of course, when those allegedly wise Muslims appear, they themselves can't possibly answer the questions and they play the same game -- it's the Jews, it's the media, I don't know enough Islamic history to understand, and they know somebody 8,000 miles away who could explain it all to me. Ultimately, nobody can sufficiently explain how the Qur'an is anything other than arbitrary, cruel, unjust, evil, and riddled with evidence that it is based on the most profound human weaknesses. I don't use those terms lightly or imprecisely or emotionally. As a matter of dispassionate fact, Islam -- as written in the Qur'an -- is arbitrary, cruel, unjust, and evil, and it contains endless conclusive evidence that the founder of this "religion" suffered from the most intense form of the worst human weaknesses on earth.

Of course, my life has improved drastically since I actually read the Qur'an and realized the obvious human weaknesses from which it originated. I sincerely hope that all Muslims will read the Qur'an and simply think about whether this religion comes from a good person or a bad person, from an intelligent person or from a fool, from good or from evil, from compassion or from cruelty, from justice or injustice, from decency or from depravity -- however anyone wants to define those terms.

I just found this site today, and I'm thrilled to say that I've found here precisely what I've been telling people for many years -- Islam is, in fact, the problem for the entire world, but the biggest problem on earth for Muslims themselves. Unfortunately, in addition to destroying themselves with Islam, the rest of the world is likely to meet its end as soon as true Muslims assemble the weaponry required to destroy the earth.

It's absolutely imperative that the people who I call "pretend Muslims" -- who are the vast majority of people who call themselves Muslims -- disassociate themselves from this bizarre superstition called Islam and from the few true-believers, who rely on the pretend Muslims for their strength and legitimacy. President Bush and others are dead wrong when they say that Islam is a great and peaceful faith that has been hijacked by a few extremists. In fact, Islam is a vile and violent faith that establishes extremism and that has been hijacked by the pretend Muslims who, by their own human decency, have given this barbaric superstition the appearance of legitimacy to the uninformed.

Best wishes to all,

Apostate Success


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqkxkqeCK8U&feature=player_embedded#!

the 1:26 mark...
4154
is that whoever enters Islam voluntarily, not forcibly-


the 1:31 mark...
4155
it is not permissible for him to apostatize from Islam.


The 1:35 mark...
4156
If he does that, the ruling upon him is death.


The 1:51 mark...
4157
This is the ruling in Islam.


Let me guess, Jahil... he isn't 'really' Islamic... right?

[Abbey Marie]

From Marcus' post above:

As a matter of dispassionate fact, Islam -- as written in the Qur'an -- is arbitrary, cruel, unjust, and evil, and it contains endless conclusive evidence that the founder of this "religion" suffered from the most intense form of the worst human weaknesses on earth.


Some powerful stuff there.

[jafar00]

I can play Youtube links too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRB3snGxgns#t=6m51s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRB3snGxgns#t=6m51s)

And stop trying to fool people with nonsense from Salafiyya. They are people who reject established scholarly opinion for their own or that of their own Sheikhs going back to Mohamed Ibn Abdul Wahhab who hailed from Najd in KSA.

What did the Prophet Mohamed (saw) have to say about Najd?


Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) reported the Prophet (Peace be upon him) as saying: "Oh Allah, bless us in our Syria; O Allah, bless us in our Yemen." Those present said: "And in our Najd, O Messenger of Allah!" But he said, "O Allah, bless us in our Syria; O Allah, bless us in our Yemen."Those present said, "And in our Najd, O Messenger of Allah!" Ibn Umar said that he thought that he said on the third occasion: "Earthquakes and fitnah are there, and there shall arise the horn of ash-Shaytaan." [Sahih al-Bukhari].

Since you have no idea who the Salafi are and what kind of twisted philosophy they are pushing (like Al Qaeda, Al Shabab et al) read this..
http://www.oocities.org/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/pro_new_world_order.html

[aboutime]

I can play Youtube links too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRB3snGxgns#t=6m51s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRB3snGxgns#t=6m51s)

And stop trying to fool people with nonsense from Salafiyya. They are people who reject established scholarly opinion for their own or that of their own Sheikhs going back to Mohamed Ibn Abdul Wahhab who hailed from Najd in KSA.

What did the Prophet Mohamed (saw) have to say about Najd?



Since you have no idea who the Salafi are and what kind of twisted philosophy they are pushing (like Al Qaeda, Al Shabab et al) read this..
http://www.oocities.org/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/pro_new_world_order.html


jafar. For your own convincing entertainment?

As if any of us will waste our time helping you prolong, or proliferate the known lies you claim do not exist?

I tried to find such video's in Youtube, and the Comedy/Lies section is full of crap like that. YOU LOSE!

Contemporary Issues would best be renamed Contemptable Issues.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I can play Youtube links too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRB3snGxgns#t=6m51s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRB3snGxgns#t=6m51s)

And stop trying to fool people with nonsense from Salafiyya. They are people who reject established scholarly opinion for their own or that of their own Sheikhs going back to Mohamed Ibn Abdul Wahhab who hailed from Najd in KSA.

What did the Prophet Mohamed (saw) have to say about Najd?



Since you have no idea who the Salafi are and what kind of twisted philosophy they are pushing (like Al Qaeda, Al Shabab et al) read this..
http://www.oocities.org/~abdulwahid/muslimarticles/pro_new_world_order.html

Translation of Jahil's post: He's not really Islamic, knows nothing of Islam. Trust me, I'm an expert.

You're an expert in complete bullshit. You have continuously claimed every single source posted showing that apostasy in Islam can be penalized by death, is wrong. You have continually claimed all YOUR sources are right.

You're full of shit, and you know it.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I can play Youtube links too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRB3snGxgns#t=6m51s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRB3snGxgns#t=6m51s)



Dr. Bilal Philips...

http://sheikyermami.com/2012/06/10/bilal-philips-believes-in-freedom-of-speech-absolutely-and-he-wants-homosexuals-killed/

Bilal Philips believes in freedom of speech, absolutely; and he wants homosexuals killed.

But the good news is “Dr” Philips doesn’t want to kill them in Canada, he wants to kill them only in lands where the sharia is firmly established.

Dr. Bilal Philips, a Canadian-born Muslim preacher with reputed links to terrorists who’s been ousted from several countries...

Philips was kicked out of Kenya earlier this year amid security concerns.

Britain and Australia have barred him and Germany kicked him out last year.

http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/1796


A radical Muslim cleric has been refused entry to Kenya just days before he was due to attend Islamic conferences in Nairobi and Mombasa.

Sheik Bilal Philips, a Canadian citizen who lives in Qatar was deported from Jomo Kenyatta International Airport, Nairobi on Wednesday hours after he had arrived.

He had been invited to give lectures in Nairobi and Mombasa. Anti-terror police officers and immigration officers deported him back to Qatar on realising he is in a list of those terror suspects banned in Australia, UK, US and other European countries.

Sheik Philips' ban was confirmed by senior police and Immigration officers in Nairobi on Thursday.

"He is not wanted here because he may poison our youth through his controversial preaching," said a senior immigration officer who participated in his deportation.

The US Government has named him an "unindicted co-conspirator" in the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing in New York City, and he was deported from the US in 2004.




You cite a homophobic, terrorist supporter and man who has been barred form various countries, as source of a peaceful Islam?

And you have the balls to whine like a little bitch about MY sources?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[aboutime]

Dr. Bilal Philips...

http://sheikyermami.com/2012/06/10/bilal-philips-believes-in-freedom-of-speech-absolutely-and-he-wants-homosexuals-killed/


http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/1796




You cite a homophobic, terrorist supporter and man who has been barred form various countries, as source of a peaceful Islam?

And you have the balls to whine like a little bitch about MY sources?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:



Marcus. Unfortunately for jafar. The TRUTH always hurts. And it is impossible to change the TRUTH. Which is a threat. No matter how anyone like jafar looks at it.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Color me completely unsurprised that Jahil fled this thread after I poo-pooed his source like he poo-poos everyone elses sources.

Guess Jahil and 'his' version of Islam can't take the heat.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Color me completely unsurprised that Jahil fled this thread after I poo-pooed his source like he poo-poos everyone elses sources.

Guess Jahil and 'his' version of Islam can't take the heat.

Maybe he is off enjoying his Christmas break by visiting his Egyptian friends. I offered he and his family a sincere Christmas greetings and blessing etc. --Tyr

[Marcus Aurelius]

No comment on post #11, Jahil?:laugh:

[jafar00]

Dr. Bilal Philips...

http://sheikyermami.com/2012/06/10/bilal-philips-believes-in-freedom-of-speech-absolutely-and-he-wants-homosexuals-killed/


http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/1796




You cite a homophobic, terrorist supporter and man who has been barred form various countries, as source of a peaceful Islam?

And you have the balls to whine like a little bitch about MY sources?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Check your links. They support Bilal in fact. You really should read your sources more carefully :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

As for the homophobe thing, I would support his stance. I would put to death gays who perform sex acts in public too. That's just sick and would tie in nicely with the death penalty for adultery which also requires 4 or more witnesses to the actual act of penetration (impossible to convict unless the two performed the act in public).


No comment on post #11, Jahil?:laugh:

Chill.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Check your links. They support Bilal in fact. You really should read your sources more carefully :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

As for the homophobe thing, I would support his stance. I would put to death gays who perform sex acts in public too. That's just sick and would tie in nicely with the death penalty for adultery which also requires 4 or more witnesses to the actual act of penetration (impossible to convict unless the two performed the act in public).



Chill.

Supporting or not supporting his stances is not the point, Jahil. You whine about the credibility of every source that contradicts you, then go and use a homophobic terrorist supporter as a source and expect us all to bow down and kiss your feet for it. You're really not very good at this.


Also, you've now gone from 'no stoning for adultery', to 'it requires 4 witnesses'?

First, you're a hypocritical dumb ass.
Second, you have no proof that witnesses are required.
Third, if you did have proof and provided it, you'd simply be proving point one... that you're a hypocritical dumb ass.

[jimnyc]

Imagine if we publicly called for the death of queers, whether having sex in public or not? I guess the charge in the USA would be lewd acts and a few other public indecency charges. And I'm FAR from a supporter of gay people, but death? I know in Iran they will hang you just for being gay, whether doing the deed in public or not. As much as I am against homosexuality, I just don't see death as an appropriate punishment for having sex in public, and certainly not just for being gay.

Jafar, why would you support death for this action? I'm with ya that it's immoral and every other disgusting thing you can think of, but death? Wouldn't strong fines or some jail time be more appropriate?

[jafar00]

Supporting or not supporting his stances is not the point, Jahil. You whine about the credibility of every source that contradicts you, then go and use a homophobic terrorist supporter as a source and expect us all to bow down and kiss your feet for it. You're really not very good at this.


Also, you've now gone from 'no stoning for adultery', to 'it requires 4 witnesses'?

First, you're a hypocritical dumb ass.
Second, you have no proof that witnesses are required.
Third, if you did have proof and provided it, you'd simply be proving point one... that you're a hypocritical dumb ass.

Here you go then.


http://www.sunnipath.com/img/bism01.jpgIn the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
Fornication (zina) and that which leads to fornication is completely unlawful and considered a major sin. The Qur�an and Sunnah are quite clear about this.
Allah Most High says:
�Do not come (even) near to adultery, for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road to other evils.� (Surah al-Isra, 32)
Thus, fornication and whatever that leads to it, such as touching, kissing, embracing, informal interaction are all considered to be major sins, hence must be avoided at all times.
As far as the Islamic legal punishment for fornication is concerned, the Hanafi jurist (faqih), Imam al-Mawsili (Allah have mercy on him) states:
�It (legal punishment) is established by evidence and confession. Evidence is that four people give testimony against a man and woman that they committed fornication. When they testify (in the courts), the judge (qadhi) will inquire from the witnesses the particulars and details of what took place, the place of incident, the time of incident, and the identity of the woman involved. When they give details of all of this and they state that the woman was unlawful upon the man in every way, and that they testify the observing of sexual intercourse taking place like they see a Kohl needle entering the Kohl bottle, and the four witnesses are considered upright both privately and publicly, then the judge will give the order for the legal punishment to be enforced upon the perpetrators.� (See: al-Ikhtiyar li ta�lil al-Mukhtar, 2/312-313)
We can see from the above text (and other such texts in the books of Fiqh) that there are detailed and stringent conditions for the legal punishment of fornication and adultery to be enforced upon an individual. If these conditions are not met, the punishment will not be enforced.
One should always keep in mind the objective and spirit of Shariah concerning the various legal punishments. The idea is not to enforce the punishment and make people suffer; rather the objective is to prevent harm, corruption and immorality in the society. Thus, legal punishments act as deterrents more than actually get people punished.
Allah Most High says:
�In the law of retaliation there is (saving of) life to you, O you men of understanding.� (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 179)
An example of this which comes to mind is that we see speed cameras being placed on many roads and streets (especially here in the UK!) in order to deter people from speeding in their vehicles. The idea behind these speed cameras is not to catch people speeding, rather to prevent people from speeding and causing accidents. If the aim was to catch people speeding, there would be no warning signs indicating that a camera is present. However, we see that whenever a speed camera is placed, many warnings are given that �beware this road has a speed camera�. Many of the times, the camera is not even in operation, hence, the idea is to stop people speeding rather than catch and punish them.
The same is with the various legal punishments prescribed by Shariah, in that they are prescribed to prevent people from committing unlawful actions and corrupting the society, yet the rules and conditions for a legal punishment to be enforced are so stringent that very rarely would an individual be punished. The legal punishment is considered a deterrent, but if an individual did involve him/herself in some unlawful activity, the objective now is not to get the individual punished rather to save him/her from the punishment.
This will become more evident with the following incident that took place in the time of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace):
Sayyiduna Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) narrates: �A man from amongst the people came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) while he (the Messenger of Allah) was sitting in the Masjid, and addressed him, saying: �O Messenger of Allah! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) turned his face away from him. The man came to that side to which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) had turned his face, and said: �O Messenger of Allah! I have committed illegal intercourse.� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) turned his face to the other side, and the man came to that side. When he confessed four times, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) called him and said: �Are you insane?� He said: �No, O Messenger of Allah!� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: �Are you married?� He said: �Yes, O Messenger of Allah!� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said (to the people): �Take him away and stone him to death.� (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6439)
The above incident shows the importance of trying to avert a legal punishment as much as possible. The man came and confessed to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) that he had committed unlawful sexual intercourse, yet the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) ignored him, in order that he may change his mind.
Similarly, Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that When Ma�iz ibn Malik came to the Messenger of Allah (and confessed that he had committed adultery), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said to him: �Probably you have only kissed (the woman), or touched, or looked at her?� He said: �No, O Messenger of Allah!� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), using no euphemism, said: �Did you have sexual intercourse with her?� The narrator said: At that moment, (i.e. after he confessed that he had sexual intercourse), the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) ordered that he be stoned.� (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6438)
This famous incident of Ma�iz ibn Malik also gives the same message, in that the Imam should try his best to avoid the legal punishment. This is the reason why it is recommended to say to the one who confesses committing fornication that �You may only have touched, you may only have kissed, are you sure you had sex, think again properly of what you are saying and think of the consequences of your confession, and other such things.
This (trying to avert a legal punishment) has been explicitly mentioned in one Hadith. Sayyida A�isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: �Keep the Muslims away from punishments as much as possible. If there is any way out for an offender to escape punishment, acquit him. It is better for a judge to make an error in acquittal than in conviction.� (Sunan Tirmidhi, no: 1424)
Due to the forgoing, the Fuqaha have laid down (based on the guidelines of the Qur�an and Sunnah) certain strict rules and conditions in order for a punishment to be established or enforced. These strict conditions can be seen in all of the various penalties that have been imposed. The following are certain rules and conditions for the punishment of committing adultery to be enforced, as mentioned in the books of Hanafi jurisprudence:
1) It is actual vaginal sexual intercourse (and not anal or oral intercourse) that takes place between a man and a woman.
2) The man and woman involved in this unlawful sexual intercourse are not married; neither is the woman a slave-girl of the man.
3) It is proven by four people testifying that they clearly observed the couple engaged in unlawful sexual intercourse without any doubt or ambiguity. They are able to say that they saw their private parts meet like the Kohl needle entering the Kohl bottle. The judge would ask them all the various details concerning the time and location of the incident, and who were the people involved and other such matters, in order to remove any doubt.
4) If the four witnesses take back their testimony before the actual punishment is enforced, then the punishment will be abandoned, and they (witnesses) will be punished for the crime of false accusation.
5) The witnesses are not allowed to delay their testimony from the time of the incident to the time of testifying. If they delayed testifying in the courts, the punishment will not be enforced, unless they were very distant from the Imam hence the delay was due to them travelling to the Imam.
6) The punishment of adultery is also proven if the perpetrator him/herself confesses to be guilty of the crime. He/she must be sane, mature (baligh) and must confess four separate times in four separate sessions that the crime was committed. The Imam will try to wave away the punishment as much as possible by saying to the confessor that �you may have only touched or kissed� and other such statements. The Imam will also inquire about the various details of the incident, and when the confessor explains everything without leaving any doubt or ambiguity, the punishment will be enforced.
7) If the confessor takes back his words before the punishment is enforced or during the punishment, he/she will be released and set free. (See: al-Ikhtiyar li ta�lil al-Mukhtar, 2/311-316 & other major Hanafi Fiqh references)
The legal punishment:
If the crime of fornication is carried out by an individual who is sane, mature, Muslim and is married to a spouse who is also sane, mature, Muslim, and that their marriage is consummated, then the legal punishment is that he/she will be stoned to death (rajm). The Imam, witnesses and other Muslims would take part in the stoning. If the witnesses refuse to take part in stoning the perpetrator, the punishment will be dropped, as this would be considered a sign of them taking back their testimony.
If the crime of fornication is carried out by an individual who does not qualify to be in the above category, then the punishment is that he/she will be given 100 lashes. These whips and lashes will be spread out over the body, avoiding the head, face and the private parts. A pregnant woman will not be whipped until she gives birth to her child and after her post natal bleeding (nifas). However, if she is to be stoned, then this may be carried out straight after giving birth.
Finally, one should remember that it is not necessary in order for one�s sin to be forgiven that he/she receives the legal punishment (hadd) for the sin committed. The reason being is that one is not obliged to confess that he/she committed adultery; hence one may keep the sin hidden and not inform the Islamic judge about it. Also the various Islamic legal punishments (hudud) are only carried out in an Islamic state (dar al-Islam) by the Imam, thus repenting to Allah Almighty will be sufficient.
The above are just some of the necessary elements concerning the legal punishment of fornication and adultery. There are other details also, but time does not allow me to discuss them, hence the above should be sufficient for now, Insha Allah.
And Allah knows best
Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
Darul Iftaa, Leicester, UK

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4208&CATE=42


Imagine if we publicly called for the death of queers, whether having sex in public or not? I guess the charge in the USA would be lewd acts and a few other public indecency charges. And I'm FAR from a supporter of gay people, but death? I know in Iran they will hang you just for being gay, whether doing the deed in public or not. As much as I am against homosexuality, I just don't see death as an appropriate punishment for having sex in public, and certainly not just for being gay.

Jafar, why would you support death for this action? I'm with ya that it's immoral and every other disgusting thing you can think of, but death? Wouldn't strong fines or some jail time be more appropriate?

The penalty for unlawful sex is quite clear in Sharia. Though it seems easy for the Taliban in their fantasy world to convict people of the crime, it is actually very difficult for a case to come to the punishment stage if Sharia is followed properly in the real world. So if 2 men were banging each other in a shopping mall in front of everyone, including children, I would not hesitate in being a witness to send them to death.

[jimnyc]

The penalty for unlawful sex is quite clear in Sharia. Though it seems easy for the Taliban in their fantasy world to convict people of the crime, it is actually very difficult for a case to come to the punishment stage if Sharia is followed properly in the real world. So if 2 men were banging each other in a shopping mall in front of everyone, including children, I would not hesitate in being a witness to send them to death.

Don't get me wrong, you won't find many people opposed to homosexuality more than I am. And the thought of doing it in public (even man and woman) is beyond the pale. But homosexual sex in front of children is despicable. I would easily support a few thousand dollar fine, maybe some mental hospital time, or even some jail time. It just seems that death for a sex crime is a bit much. Even sexual predators of children only get jail time here in the US, although I believe if someone raped a child that THEY should get death, no problem there as it's a child violated in the worst way. But kill someone over what I think is consensual sex? I'm assuming killing them, because others had to see their nastiness? I don't know, I don't think I could support that harsh of a penalty. Who is the victim of the crime, the witnesses? Is the harm done to them strong enough to support a death penalty? Can't ya just ship them off to Siberia or similar? LOL

[aboutime]

Here you go then.


http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4208&CATE=42



The penalty for unlawful sex is quite clear in Sharia. Though it seems easy for the Taliban in their fantasy world to convict people of the crime, it is actually very difficult for a case to come to the punishment stage if Sharia is followed properly in the real world. So if 2 men were banging each other in a shopping mall in front of everyone, including children, I would not hesitate in being a witness to send them to death.


jafar. Please explain HOW you managed to become a human being. I consider the act that caused your birth to be Unlawful for everyone else here. THAT IS...if you follow what your long RANT says below.

[jafar00]

Don't get me wrong, you won't find many people opposed to homosexuality more than I am. And the thought of doing it in public (even man and woman) is beyond the pale. But homosexual sex in front of children is despicable. I would easily support a few thousand dollar fine, maybe some mental hospital time, or even some jail time. It just seems that death for a sex crime is a bit much. Even sexual predators of children only get jail time here in the US, although I believe if someone raped a child that THEY should get death, no problem there as it's a child violated in the worst way. But kill someone over what I think is consensual sex? I'm assuming killing them, because others had to see their nastiness? I don't know, I don't think I could support that harsh of a penalty. Who is the victim of the crime, the witnesses? Is the harm done to them strong enough to support a death penalty? Can't ya just ship them off to Siberia or similar? LOL

At least we can agree on that! :)

[Marcus Aurelius]

Here you go then.


http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4208&CATE=42



The penalty for unlawful sex is quite clear in Sharia. Though it seems easy for the Taliban in their fantasy world to convict people of the crime, it is actually very difficult for a case to come to the punishment stage if Sharia is followed properly in the real world. So if 2 men were banging each other in a shopping mall in front of everyone, including children, I would not hesitate in being a witness to send them to death.

As I said...


Third, if you did have proof and provided it, you'd simply be proving point one... that you're a hypocritical dumb ass.

[jimnyc]

oops, more Muslims no knowing their religion, not knowing the law...


Somalia: Muslims shoot young man to death after identifying him as a convert from Islam to Christianity

Muhammad said: "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him" (Bukhari 9.84.57). The death penalty for apostasy is part of Islamic law according to all the schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Yet Muslim spokesmen such as Harris Zafar, Mustafa Akyol, Salam al-Marayati, M. Cherif Bassiouni, and Ali Eteraz (among many others) have assured us that Islam doesn't punish apostasy. I am confident that Zafar, Akyol, al-Marayati, Bassiouni, and Eteraz are making their way to Jamaame district in southern Somalia as we speak, so as to explain to Al Shabaab that they are getting Islam all wrong, wrong, wrong.

"Islamic Extremists in Somalia Kill Christian," from Morning Star News, June 20:

NAIROBI, Kenya (Morning Star News) – Islamic extremists from the rebel Al Shabaab in Somalia earlier this month publicly shot a young man to death after identifying him as a Christian, sources said.

The insurgents in Jamaame district in southern Somalia had been monitoring 28-year-old Hassan Hurshe since his arrival from a Kenya in 2010 and determined that he had become a Christian while in Kenya, said area Muslim sources whose names are withheld for security reasons.

Al Shabaab members on June 7 brought Hurshe to a public place in the town of Jilib and shot him in the head, they said.

“Many people watched this horrible action, including women and children,” said a witness.

Another area resident independently confirmed this account of the execution. A leader of the Somali underground church in Kenya who had also heard of the murder said Hurshe converted to Christianity in 2006, married in 2008 and fathered a baby boy in 2009.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/06/somalia-muslims-shoot-young-man-to-death-after-identifying-him-as-a-convert-from-islam-to-christiani.html

[jafar00]

oops, more Muslims no knowing their religion, not knowing the law...



http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/06/somalia-muslims-shoot-young-man-to-death-after-identifying-him-as-a-convert-from-islam-to-christiani.html

This again.....

This is a very weak Hadith and cannot be used for law. A Hadith with a transmission chain of one person who has also been discredited is not followed. In any case, even if it were a binding law, the Prophet Mohamed, never had anyone killed who simply left Islam but those who did so and ALSO committed high treason were punished with the death penalty. That is where the difference lies.


Here is an excerpt from a detailed article about the hadith (mis)quoted above. This is why your hate site should not be followed as they just take weak or fabricated hadiths and present them as fact.


First, when a law is given it is given in a public way so that maximum number of people can know about it and follow it. Even ordinary law-givers promulgate laws to make them known widely. In ancient times a town crier would go around and read the king’s decree in public squares. This point can be illustrated by another example: if a professor wants his students to do some homework for credit, he would not tell it only to one or two students. He would either himself announce it to the whole class or make sure that the students to whom he mentioned the assignment will pass the information about it to the other students. If the knowledge of the assignment remained limited to a very few students for weeks, then the assignment cannot be binding on the class. The same principle would apply to a much greater degree in case of the Islamic law, which is meant to be for all people and for all times, and in the particular case of a law that prescribes the taking of a human life. We can therefore be sure that if the Holy Prophet wanted to give a law prescribing death penalty for apostasy, he would make it known to a large number of Companions who would then make it known to even a larger number of Successors and so on. It is not conceivable that he would prescribe a law by telling it to only one or two Companions. Therefore a hadith prescribing such a death penalty would be reported by many Companions, and then by even a greater number of Successors and so on. It would then be known to every major scholar of later generations. But the fact is that we do not possess any such hadith about the death penalty for apostasy. Whatever ahadith we have in books are gharib, being narrated by a very few Companions and Successors. This is a strong argument to show that these ahadith are among those thousands that were fabricated or subjected to tahrif by some early Muslims.Second, some early Muslim scholars appear to be unaware of any hadith prescribing the death penalty. Thus a leading first-century jurist, Ibrahim al-Nakha‘i (d. 95), a teacher of Imam Abu Hanifah, ruled that an apostate is to be invited back to Islam as long as there is a hope for his repentance and is not to be condemned to death. A similar opinion is held in the second century by the hadith expert Sufyan al-Thawri (d. 161). This opinion is not likely to be held by a leading jurist and a leading hadith expert if there existed generally accepted ahadith in which the Prophet prescribed the death penalty for apostates. Our examination of the asanid of the ahadith in question would also suggest that these ahadith did not exist for most of the first century and might not have been generally known until well into the second century.Third, the ahadith about the death penalty are called into serious question by other ahadith that show that the Holy Prophet did not consider such a penalty for apostasy.Fourth, and most importantly, as we saw in Part I the death penalty for apostasy does not fit with the Qur`anic perspective, which rejects fitnah (persecution on religious grounds), rejects compulsion in religion, mentions apostasy many times but never mentions any legal penalty for it, and in fact permits less than the death penalty even when the crime of apostasy is accompanied by other crimes..
http://islamicperspectives.com/punishmentofapostasy_part2.html

[jimnyc]

This again.....

This is a very weak Hadith and cannot be used for law. A Hadith with a transmission chain of one person who has also been discredited is not followed. In any case, even if it were a binding law, the Prophet Mohamed, never had anyone killed who simply left Islam but those who did so and ALSO committed high treason were punished with the death penalty. That is where the difference lies.


Here is an excerpt from a detailed article about the hadith (mis)quoted above. This is why your hate site should not be followed as they just take weak or fabricated hadiths and present them as fact.


http://islamicperspectives.com/punishmentofapostasy_part2.html

Call it weak all you like, it doesn't change the point that is continually made - that whether or not it is supported by scripture is irrelevant - it's STILL something that happens very often in Islam, MANY still find it to be part of Islamic law, and it happens in many countries. Whether from a holy book, an individual, a law, a war, an extreme dislike - label it what you want, call it what you want. The bottom line is that it still happens often. It primarily only happens within Islam. It primarily only happens in Islamic countries. I understand why you would want to distance yourself from such behavior, but the facts are the facts.

You claim its "hate" that I point out a quote from that page - and meanwhile you can never find the time to condemn the killings that happen to people who try or have left the faith. It shouldn't matter whether it was commanded by a book, or if it's just a nut committing a murder, it should STILL be condemned. You're more interested in stating it has nothing to do with Islam, while as usual ignoring the actual problem.

So WHY are the extreme overwhelming majority of these deaths happening in Islamic countries and amongst Muslims? Why is it do you think that we barely, if ever, hear about this in other countries and from non-Muslims?