Quiz: Find Out if You Are Calvinist, Arminian or Neither

[tailfins]

http://www.allthetests.com/quiz07/dasquiztd.php3?testid=1076416296

[Gaffer]

I'm neither, do I get a prize?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I am a believer in the Christian Holy Trinity (Father-God, the Son - Jesus and the Holy Spirit) and the triumph of good over evil.
I have no need for any Christian denomination's blessing although I acknowledge that may be an error .
Its just that I haven't found any that didnt put in manmade rules to follow that had nothing to do with Salvation or the Bible. Such isolation has its advantages and disadvantages. -Tyr

[aboutime]

No need to make any claims about myself here. But I am sure of one thing. I AM AN AMERICAN!

[Robert A Whit]

If you want to waste time, take the test.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

No need to make any claims about myself here. But I am sure of one thing. I AM AN AMERICAN!

You my friend , should have added in -Real and Patriotic-in regards to yourself and your service!!-:beer: -:salute:-Tyr

[aboutime]

You my friend , should have added in -Real and Patriotic-in regards to yourself and your service!!-:beer: -:salute:-Tyr



Thanks Tyr. But the great thing I am most proud of, other than being an American is. I have no need to explain, or make any excuses for, or to anyone else, for anything. If they don't like me. I don't care. If they disagree with me. I don't care.

Like you. We have no needs to apologize for being Americans...like Mr.Obama does so often.

Much like those who make fun of us for being Christians, or other religious beliefs. I have so much confidence in my faith. I don't care who wants to challenge it, or me. Telling me to explain myself.
They are NOBODY'S.....And Nobody's deserve Nothing.

By the way. That DUMB TEST in the link, sounds like it came from the Westboro Phony Baptist Church of Stupidity, and Ignorance...GONE WILD!

And. For anyone who comes here to Insist I NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN. That was taken care of, way back in 1947, in a hospital, in My home town, in Pennsylania. And my parents seemed to be very happy with the BIRTH at that time. Never said anything about a SECOND DELIVERY.

[Larrymc]

http://www.allthetests.com/quiz07/dasquiztd.php3?testid=1076416296Apperently im Armenian, makes sense, because i find no bases for predestination in Christianity. interesting though, how or we to determine who is Chosen, and why??

[revelarts]

Apperently im Armenian, makes sense, because i find no bases for predestination in Christianity...
you find no basis, c'mon Larry




Romans 8:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:29&version=KJV)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:30&version=KJV)
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1:5&version=KJV)
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1:11&version=KJV)
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:...

That's 4 direct references, there are many similar elsewhere


.... interesting though, how or we to determine who is Chosen, and why??

All we can do is go by what people say, if they say " I believe.". And how they live. If there lives shows SOME relation to their profession of belief. We can't know if anyone is or is not Chosen -for sure- that's God's business.

[Larrymc]

you find no basis, c'mon Larry

That's 4 direct references, there are many similar elsewhere



All we can do is go by what people say, if they say " I believe.". And how they live. If there lives shows SOME relation to their profession of belief. We can't know if anyone is or is not Chosen -for sure- that's God's business.no one is predestined for Heaven, this is talking about a few who God predestined to fulfill certain prophecy's, and those who except and follow Christ, there destination is planed of course, but who will follow Christ, and there for go to heaven, is not predestined

[aboutime]

no one is predestined for Heaven, this is talking about a few who God predestined to fulfill certain prophecy's, and those who except and follow Christ, there destination is planed of course, but who will follow Christ, and there for go to heaven, is not predestined


Larrymc. Think about it this way. No matter what anyone else suggests, or tells you here. There is NO WAY they will ever know, or prove what our beliefs, and faith tell us. As announced in the Bible.
In other words. NOBODY KNOWS.
So, without trying to find excuses, or trying to be reasonable with people who refuse to Reason about almost everything.
I'm happy to wait for ANYONE to prove how my beliefs, or faith are different.
Until then. Nobody can honestly tell us anything.

[revelarts]

no one is predestined for Heaven, this is talking about a few who God predestined to fulfill certain prophecy's, and those who except and follow Christ, there destination is planed of course, but who will follow Christ, and there for go to heaven, is not predestined

Please reread the Romans 8:22 - 25

I don't think it's what you've described


Larrymc. Think about it this way. No matter what anyone else suggests, or tells you here. There is NO WAY they will ever know, or prove what our beliefs, and faith tell us. As announced in the Bible.
In other words. NOBODY KNOWS.
So, without trying to find excuses, or trying to be reasonable with people who refuse to Reason about almost everything.
I'm happy to wait for ANYONE to prove how my beliefs, or faith are different.
Until then. Nobody can honestly tell us anything.

About
I'm not trying to tell anyone what they believe.
I'm just pointing out what the Bible says. The words have meaning. we just can't make them mean what we want. Well we can, but we shouldn't.

Many here are ready to quote the Koran to show that it says this or that.
Everyone expects that the words written there mean what they say in some sense.

When the Bible says something over and over in different ways, we should probably take it
seriously and as written.

NOBODY can tell you if what you believe is true, HOWEVER reason and faith Should work together to get you closer to the truth. And our faith will be in things that are either true/real or false/fantasy with a solid dose of raw mystery all around to be sure.

But just about ANYONE can tell you what the Bible SAYS -in many/most areas- by just reading the words in context.

[PostmodernProphet]

I started to take the test.......however, it soon became obvious that many of the questions had only stupid answers available.......at first I thought it was simply a thinly veiled attack on Calvinism.....then I realized I was wrong.....there was no veil at all.......

[darin]

Apperently im Armenian, makes sense, because i find no bases for predestination in Christianity. interesting though, how or we to determine who is Chosen, and why??
Not only no basis, Calvinism is decidedly anti-Christian; anti-god.

[aboutime]

Please reread the Romans 8:22 - 25

I don't think it's what you've described



About
I'm not trying to tell anyone what they believe.
I'm just pointing out what the Bible says. The words have meaning. we just can't make them mean what we want. Well we can, but we shouldn't.

Many here are ready to quote the Koran to show that it says this or that.
Everyone expects that the words written there mean what they say in some sense.

When the Bible says something over and over in different ways, we should probably take it
seriously and as written.

NOBODY can tell you if what you believe is true, HOWEVER reason and faith Should work together to get you closer to the truth. And our faith will be in things that are either true/real or false/fantasy with a solid dose of raw mystery all around to be sure.

But just about ANYONE can tell you what the Bible SAYS -in many/most areas- by just reading the words in context.


Rev. I agree with you. But just like anyone can tell me what the Bible says. I have the ability to read it, and INTERPRET the words the way I WANT TO INTERPRET THEM. I have no need for anyone to tell me WHAT I AM READING.
Just as I have no need to explain WHAT I believe, and WHY I have the faith I do.

And....the very same could be said for My Interpretation of Our Constitution. Which some have insisted IS ONLY IN THEIR INTERPRETATION.
That is NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS.

[revelarts]

DMP that's harsh,
in reply

Not only no basis,...
Except the all those uncomfortable Bible verses.



Calvinism is decidedly anti-Christian...
Only if Christianity is defined in some odd way other than what the Bible describes, maybe yes.



...anti-god.
Yes anti All gods that didn't create the universe and everything that ever was.

[Robert A Whit]

I don't plan to argue the Bible.

No more than I would argue with you over you over your wife or children. Makes no sense for me to do it.

You assume you know the Bible to the point you argue it. I don't. Some of you don't know what the Book of Mormon contains. So why would you argue the book?

[PostmodernProphet]

Not only no basis, Calvinism is decidedly anti-Christian; anti-god.

lol......people who know fuck-all about religion ought not try to argue it......

[aboutime]

lol......people who know fuck-all about religion ought not try to argue it......


That's really all they know how to do. If there is no way for them to argue honestly. They make stuff up to impress themselves, or to make others feel insecure, or less educated than they claim to be.
It's all that SMOKE and MIRRORS of Liberalism, and Hatred, hidden behind their Racism so easily directed at anyone who isn't THEM.

[darin]

Time out! That's all I know? What? am sorry if it hurts but Calvinism paints god the opposite of who he is - love. Calvinism and its unbiblical fantasies about how god relates to man is insulting to Christ and His work.


What do I know, though...Cept my doctrine studies at a Christian collage and time as an ordained pastor.

Calvinism= "oh, you wanna love me? Well, fuck you, I already decided and I won't allow it!" - God

[tailfins]

Time out! That's all I know? What? am sorry if it hurts but Calvinism paints god the opposite of who he is - love. Calvinism and its unbiblical fantasies about how god relates to man is insulting to Christ and His work.


What do I know, though...Cept my doctrine studies at a Christian collage and time as an ordained pastor.

Calvinism= "oh, you wanna love me? Well, f*** you, I already decided and I won't allow it!" - God

1) What's a pastor doing dropping an F-bomb?
2) Don't confuse Calvinism with Hyper-Calvinism.

[Kathianne]

1) What's a pastor doing dropping an F-bomb?
2) Don't confuse Calvinism with Hyper-Calvinism.

I like d personally, he's good people. We've always been at odds regarding religion, one of the reasons I nearly always avoid these types of posts.

I've not met a 'man of the cloth' that wasn't tolerant of other faiths. I've met quite a few, my uncle, RIP, was a Catholic priest. Met some imams, rabbis, many pastors from Protestant religions, for celebrations of his 25 and 50th anniversaries; met many during the Civil Rights marches in 60's though I was young, I was interested; met some at his funeral a few years back.

All were learned, they respected other men and other faiths. They all recognized their role in leading people to the message.

I didn't meet one that thought their 'take' was the one and only answer to the question of salvation.

[revelarts]

I like d personally, he's good people. We've always been at odds regarding religion, one of the reasons I nearly always avoid these types of posts.

I've not met a 'man of the cloth' that wasn't tolerant of other faiths. I've met quite a few, my uncle, RIP, was a Catholic priest. Met some imams, rabbis, many pastors from Protestant religions, for celebrations of his 25 and 50th anniversaries; met many during the Civil Rights marches in 60's though I was young, I was interested; met some at his funeral a few years back.

All were learned, they respected other men and other faiths. They all recognized their role in leading people to the message.

I didn't meet one that thought their 'take' was the one and only answer to the question of salvation.

But of cousre you do know that there are other learned Catholic priest, Imams, Rabbis, many pastors from Protestant religions that do in fact believe their 'take' is the one and only answer to the question of salvation.

And many are tolerant of other faiths, in the sense that they respect all peoples right to believe what the will. They just believe that others are sincere, but sincerely wrong.

That's not a crime or inconsistent with Christianity to take that view. And frankly it's been the teaching of Jesus the apostles and Christianity for most of the past 2000 years. If you look historically you'll find that the view "all/many roads leads to heaven" has only gained traction since the 1900's starting in Europe with some modern theologians.



John
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts
10 .......Peter said.. then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is“‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

[Kathianne]

But of cousre you do know that there are other learned Catholic priest, Imams, Rabbis, many pastors from Protestant religions that do in fact believe their 'take' is the one and only answer to the question of salvation. Actually no, I don't.


And many are tolerant of other faiths, in the sense that they respect all peoples right to believe what the will. They just believe that others are sincere, but sincerely wrong.

That's not a crime or inconsistent with Christianity to take that view. And frankly it's been the teaching of Jesus the apostles and Christianity for most of the past 2000 years. If you look historically you'll find that the view "all/many roads leads to heaven" has only gained traction since the 1900's starting in Europe with some modern theologians.

In spite of what you put forward as 'truth' like I quoted above, no, I'm not familiar with ignorant clergy. You are? Bully.

[revelarts]

Actually no, I don't.

In spite of what you put forward as 'truth' like I quoted above, no, I'm not familiar with ignorant clergy. You are? Bully.

Sorry Kath, It's not my intent to bully anyone, certainly not you.

[Kathianne]

Sorry Kath, It's not my intent to bully anyone, certainly not you.

It certainly seemed that way with your post.

While the 'religious right' may not like the reality of advanced education, indeed, may wish to retrench for those they feel more 'authentic', than learned; the educated lean towards more inclusion. Mind you, none of them know God's plan. They are all making their 'best guess.'

Except for the Calvinists, they've no control.

[PostmodernProphet]

Time out! That's all I know? What? am sorry if it hurts but Calvinism paints god the opposite of who he is - love. Calvinism and its unbiblical fantasies about how god relates to man is insulting to Christ and His work.


What do I know, though...Cept my doctrine studies at a Christian collage and time as an ordained pastor.

Calvinism= "oh, you wanna love me? Well, fuck you, I already decided and I won't allow it!" - God

I also have a masters in theology, and from a Calvinist institution.......if you actually know something about Calvinism you ought to begin revealing it instead of substituting ignorance in its place........let me guess, are you an ordained Baptist?......just last week I was compelled to comment that you can always identify a Baptist, because they devote so much of their time telling us how someone else isn't really a Christian.........

[revelarts]

It certainly seemed that way with your post.

While the 'religious right' may not like the reality of advanced education, indeed, may wish to retrench for those they feel more 'authentic', than learned; the educated lean towards more inclusion. Mind you, none of them know God's plan. They are all making their 'best guess.'

Except for the Calvinists, they've no control.

I don't claim any special education and I do not discount education. As a believer myself my primary source of information are the scriptures. The educated clergy you reference say that it's one source for them as well.

I'm not educated to the degree where i can explain away verses like these

John 14
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4
10 .......Peter said.. then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is“‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”


and inline with the topic of the thread, i pointed to several passages about predestination , all penned by Paul i think, but Jesus said this
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


I don't claim to have all of anything figured out. but i do not dismiss this and make claims contrary to the one I claim to be following. I may not ever be able to reconcile all the passages that indicate human freedom and Gods sovereignty but I'm not so bold as to deny that it's part of what I'm suppose to acknowledge and believe.

if pointing out Bible verses makes me a bully then I'm sorry I'll just have to be a bully.
Jesus said stuff that upset people. And that doesn't fit popular culture. or any culture really. He was killed for what he said. Not for Healing or kindness but for claiming to be the Son of God and the only way of salvation for the world

[PostmodernProphet]

those who fail to understand Calvin's doctrine of predestination serve only to fulfill the warning he raised about that misunderstanding....from Calvin, On Predestination.....


We shall never be clearly convinced as we ought to be, that our salvation flows from the fountain of God's free mercy, till we are acquainted with His eternal election, which illustrates the grace of God by this comparison, that He adopts not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what He refuses to others. Ignorance of this principle evidently detracts from the Divine glory, and diminishes real humility. But according to Paul, what is so necessary to be known, never can be known, unless God, without any regard to works, chooses those whom He has decreed. "At this present time also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise, grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise, work is no more work." If we need to be recalled to the origin of election, to prove that we obtain salvation from no other source than the mere goodness of God, they who desire to extinguish this principle, do all they can to obscure what ought to be magnificently and loudly celebrated, and to pluck up humility by the roots. In ascribing the salvation of the remnant of the people to the election of grace, Paul clearly testifies, that it is then only known that God saves whom upon which there can be no claim. They who shut the gates to prevent anyone from presuming to approach and taste this doctrine, do no less injury to man than to God; for nothing else will be sufficient to produce in us suitable humility, or to impress us with a due sense of our great obligations to God.

insinuating that predestination "closes gates" results, itself, in closing the gates of understanding what the doctrine means.....

[Larrymc]

Time out! That's all I know? What? am sorry if it hurts but Calvinism paints god the opposite of who he is - love. Calvinism and its unbiblical fantasies about how god relates to man is insulting to Christ and His work.


What do I know, though...Cept my doctrine studies at a Christian collage and time as an ordained pastor.

Calvinism= "oh, you wanna love me? Well, fuck you, I already decided and I won't allow it!" - Godmost of those with controversial beliefs our based on hidden messages or someones interpretation, but i fell the Bible is for the average person, to read and understand Gods character, nothing hidden, doesn't take a scholar. i once went to a One less church were they think reference to The Father and the Holy Spirit is not necessary , so to be baptized in the name of Jesus only was correct, i told them before i left that i would stick with what Jesus said which is be baptized in the name of the Father son and Holy Spirit, while God gave Jesus all the Glory it doesn't change the Holy Trinity

[Marcus Aurelius]

Time out! That's all I know? What? am sorry if it hurts but Calvinism paints god the opposite of who he is - love. Calvinism and its unbiblical fantasies about how god relates to man is insulting to Christ and His work.


What do I know, though...Cept my doctrine studies at a Christian collage and time as an ordained pastor.

Calvinism= "oh, you wanna love me? Well, fuck you, I already decided and I won't allow it!" - God

Pretty sure God wouldn't use the f-word.

Just sayin.

[tailfins]

I don't plan to argue the Bible.

No more than I would argue with you over you over your wife or children. Makes no sense for me to do it.

You assume you know the Bible to the point you argue it. I don't. Some of you don't know what the Book of Mormon contains. So why would you argue the book?

I was just trying to get a feel for my audience here. Apparently, no member of DP would meet another at a church on vacation.

[aboutime]

I also have a masters in theology, and from a Calvinist institution.......if you actually know something about Calvinism you ought to begin revealing it instead of substituting ignorance in its place........let me guess, are you an ordained Baptist?......just last week I was compelled to comment that you can always identify a Baptist, because they devote so much of their time telling us how someone else isn't really a Christian.........


And you, PostmodernProphet. Simply had to do exactly the very same thing you tell us Baptists do by bragging that you are more highly educated or knowledgeable????

Do you understand how the word Hypocrisy works here?

[PostmodernProphet]

And you, PostmodernProphet. Simply had to do exactly the very same thing you tell us Baptists do by bragging that you are more highly educated or knowledgeable????

Do you understand how the word Hypocrisy works here?

is it hypocrisy to acknowledge the fact I have a doctorate?.........at least I didn't claim you were anti-God or insulting to Christ OR even claim Baptists weren't Christians (which in fact would have been hypocritical).....all I did was point out the ignorance of those who had made the offending posts.......if you are denying your ignorance, demonstrate it......

[PostmodernProphet]

I was just trying to get a feel for my audience here. Apparently, no member of DP would meet another at a church on vacation.

I have visited a variety of denominations, including Catholic, Mormon, and even Baptist.........does that mean I'm not a member of DP?......

[aboutime]

is it hypocrisy to acknowledge the fact I have a doctorate?.........at least I didn't claim you were anti-God or insulting to Christ OR even claim Baptists weren't Christians (which in fact would have been hypocritical).....all I did was point out the ignorance of those who had made the offending posts.......if you are denying your ignorance, demonstrate it......


Don't ask me to deny your ignorance. I just pointed out...despite how impressed you seem to be with YOU. That hypocrisy in telling someone else NOT TO DO SOMETHING....as you did. Then DOING IT yourself. Is rather blatant, and yes. Hypocritical of you.

I personally could care less, whether you have a doctorate. That means nothing to me. But your obvious patronizing attitude belongs with JAFAR, wherever he happens to be at the moment. Birds of a Feather. As in FALSE PROPHETS just do not impress me at all.

[tailfins]

I have visited a variety of denominations, including Catholic, Mormon, and even Baptist.........does that mean I'm not a member of DP?......

All I'm saying is that I don't see much overlap, although I see some similarity between abouttime and myself. The difference there is I think I'm more weather beaten than he is where the street has made me a bit more practical and less hostile to other beliefs. Interaction does NOT imply acceptance.

If I were being mugged and someone from the Nation of Islam chased the offender away, all I would say is "Thank You".

[Larrymc]

I have visited a variety of denominations, including Catholic, Mormon, and even Baptist.........does that mean I'm not a member of DP?......i to have attended a variety that's why i will not go to any Denominational church, i find they tend to hold one part of the Bible more relevant than the rest,

[avatar4321]

Why do i need a quiz to tell me Im neither? I know Im not either. lol

[Kathianne]

And you, PostmodernProphet. Simply had to do exactly the very same thing you tell us Baptists do by bragging that you are more highly educated or knowledgeable????

Do you understand how the word Hypocrisy works here?

What is this obsession on education? Seriously.

[darin]

those who fail to understand Calvin's doctrine of predestination serve only to fulfill the warning he raised about that misunderstanding....from Calvin, On Predestination.....



insinuating that predestination "closes gates" results, itself, in closing the gates of understanding what the doctrine means.....

There's really a simple message: God 'decides' who is allowed to love him. That's the undercurrent of Calvinism and it's brutal.


God's will is supreme, yes? Allowing for God's will to be the ultimate deciding factor, nobody goes to hell, ever. Ever. Makes most other things some religious folk hold dear irrelevant.

[PostmodernProphet]

There's really a simple message: God 'decides' who is allowed to love him. That's the undercurrent of Calvinism and it's brutal.

except that is what Armenians claim that Calvin meant by predestination, rather than what it means........see the above quote where he predicts someone would make that very mistake......

[darin]

except that is what Armenians claim that Calvin meant by predestination, rather than what it means........see the above quote where he predicts someone would make that very mistake......

Except that is exactly what is meant by "but gives to some what He refuses to others".

Is God's will the deciding factor on "salvation"?

[PostmodernProphet]

Calvin, On Predestination Section IV
Profane persons, I confess, suddenly lay hold of something relating to the subject of predestination, to furnish occasion for objections, cavils, reproaches, and ridicule. But if we are frightened from it by their impudence, all the principal articles of the faith must be concealed, for there is scarcely one of them which such persons as these leave unviolated by blasphemy. The refractory mind will discover as much insolence, on hearing that there are three persons in the Divine essence, as on being told, that when God created man, He foresaw what would happen concerning him. Nor will they refrain from derision on being informed that little more than five thousand years have elapsed since the creation of the world. They will ask why the power of God was so long idle and asleep. Nothing can be advanced which they will not endeavor to ridicule. Must we, in order to check these sacrileges, say nothing of the Divinity of the Son and Spirit, or pass over in silence the creation of the world? In this instance, and every other, the truth of God is too powerful to dread the detraction of impious men; as is strenuously maintained by Augustine, in his treatise on the Perseverance of the Faithful. We see the false apostles, with all their defamation and accusation of the true doctrine of Paul, could never succeed to make him ashamed of it. Their assertion, that all this discussion is dangerous to pious minds, because it is inconsistent with exhortations, shakes their faith, and disturbs and discourages the heart itself, is without any foundation. Augustine admits, that he was frequently blamed, on these accounts, for preaching predestination too freely; but he readily and amply refutes them. But as many and various absurdities are crowded upon us here, we prefer reserving every one to be refuted in its proper place. I only desire this general admission, that we should neither scrutinize those things which the Lord has left concealed, nor neglect those which He has openly exhibited, lest we be condemned for excessive curiosity on the one hand, or for ingratitude on the other. For it is judiciously remarked by Augustine, that we may safely follow the Scripture, which proceeds as with the pace of a mother stooping to the weakness of a child. that it may not leave our weak capacities behind. But persons who are so cautious or timid, as to wish predestination to be buried in silence, lest feeble minds should be disturbed,-with what pretext, I ask, will they gloss over their arrogance, which indirectly charges God with foolish inadvertency, as though He foresaw not the danger which they suppose they have had the penetration to discover. Whoever, therefore, endeavors to raise prejudices against the doctrine of predestination, openly reproaches God, as though something had inconsiderately escaped from Him that is pernicious to the Church.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/calvin-predest.asp

[darin]

Does the Will of God dictate who achieves "salvation"?

[PostmodernProphet]

Does the Will of God dictate who achieves "salvation"?


no....it does not "dictate" it.....are you familiar with the concept of denying the Holy Spirit?.......

[darin]

no....it does not "dictate" it.....are you familiar with the concept of denying the Holy Spirit?.......

Thus we can thwart God's will - God can elect us to 'salvation' and we can deny Him eh?

Look - the writer of this blog is more insightful than Calvin - I whole-heartedly agree:



One of my firmest theological convictions is that a perfectly good God would do everything possible to enable people to be saved. A God who, before the foundation of the world, determines that some will suffer everlasting punishment, simply because this would be to his own greater glory (why would it be to his own greater glory anyway?) is as God whose motivations I absolutely do not understand. It isn't just that there is something mysterious here, it is that this kind of conduct is completely opposed to any ethical values that come from God's own commandments. God expects people to care deeply about the salvation of the people of the world, yet God could save a lot of people but just decides not to? Imagine the tortures of the Nazis extended through all of eternity. To say that this kind of torment will go on not because the damned make choices that make it impossible for God to save them, but rather simply because God has chosen this fate for them, is to attribute to God characterstics that, to my mind, conflict utterly and totally with the character of God revealed in Christ. The Bible does not say "For God so loved the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." And so when I read "God is not willing that any should perish" in II Peter 3:9, I take it to mean that, quite literally, God does not want anyone going to hell. Period, end of story. God said it, I believe it, that settles it.


http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2005/10/god-is-not-willing-that-any-should.html



Many Xtians believe upon His death, Christ decended into hell and brought-with him those who had gone before - and Christ secured the "gates of hell".

That right there tells me there probably is no hell as we know it for 'unbelievers'; as when Christ performed that service those contained therein were rescued.

[revelarts]

John 14
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 4
10 .......Peter said.. then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is“‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Jesus said this
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 3
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Mathew 13
49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.


Luke 13
24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.




Does the Will of God dictate who achieves "salvation"?

DMP
I suppose if it tried i could work away around those passages so they didn't mean some go to Hell, and God has no or little impact on peoples decisions on salvation.

But what do the above passages mean In your opinion?

Calvin didn't write those.

I promise you i will not debate your interpretation. I'm honestly curious.

[darin]

John 14
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Christ brings humans to God.



Acts 4
10 .......Peter said.. then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is“‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”


Christ's attonement sealed the deal - Christ saves humanity from itself.



Jesus said this
John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Christ is the passage by which we find God. Nobody can find God except Christ fulfills his mission.



John 3
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


God sent Christ to save the world; and through Christ, the World is saved.



Mathew 13
49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 51 “Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked.

At some point our hearts and attitudes will be made-accountable. Some of the "Church Folk" will be pissed when they see who is "saved". Some folk will live in the afterlife - at least at some point for at least some time - based on their hearts in this Life. Sorta. :)



Luke 13
24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.



Serving God is not for the afterlife - serving God is for right now. Right now to best-prepare us for the afterlife.



Does the Will of God dictate who achieves "salvation"?




dmp
I suppose if it tried i could work away around those passages so they didn't mean some go to Hell, and God has no or little impact on peoples decisions on salvation.

But what do the above passages mean In your opinion?

Calvin didn't write those.

I promise you i will not debate your interpretation. I'm honestly curious.

My thing is this - God knows who is in heaven because God is already there. With Christ securing the gates of hell, upon his death then resurrection, only Christ can allow entry. Because God is not willing ANY should perrish, I believe - at least I think I do - there's a good chance nobody will spent eternity in torment as we've been taught.

Christians today - really most faiths - are so arrogant and eliteist; simply flies in the face of who God claims to be: Love.

[revelarts]

Ok, thanks.

I guess my only request would be that if we are going to disagree that you wouldn't charaterize my or others positions as "elitist" "arrogant" anti god" etc.

If you notice. i've never given your position ANY disparaging terms.
I try to limit myself to saying that some positions are -wrong based on...- , -less than honest based on ... - or things along that line.

the name calling is kinda low, especially for someone who claims to be promoting and All loving God whos going to save everyone including the elites anti god arrogant Calvin.

[darin]

Ok, thanks.

I guess my only request would be that if we are going to disagree that you wouldn't charaterize my or others positions as "elitist" "arrogant" anti god" etc.

If you notice. i've never given your position ANY disparaging terms.
I try to limit myself to saying that some positions are -wrong based on...- , -less than honest based on ... - or things along that line.

the name calling is kinda low, especially for someone who claims to be promoting and All loving God whos going to save everyone including the elites anti god arrogant Calvin.


I'm saying Calvinism is anti-god and makes god an ellitist. I think if you really considered the implications of what Calvin taught, you'd probably come to see that, too. I'm saying it's best, probably, to NOT teach Calvin because he was so misguided in all likelihood.

[PostmodernProphet]

That right there tells me there probably is no hell as we know it for 'unbelievers'

if those who choose not to believe in him are no different than those who do, does that not, in itself, "thwart God's will"?.....I think you would be hard pressed to claim that it is God's will that we choose not to believe in him......


I believe - at least I think I do - there's a good chance nobody will spent eternity in torment as we've been taught.

lol.....except, apparently, Calvinists who are anti-God?.......


The Bible does not say "For God so loved the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." And so when I read "God is not willing that any should perish" in II Peter 3:9, I take it to mean that, quite literally, God does not want anyone going to hell. Period, end of story. God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

but humanity has a long history of acting in violation of God's will.....because you claim "elect" is a contradiction to "world" you reject the balance of the verse and made it into "For God so loved the world that he decided to send everyone to heaven whether they believed in his only begotten Son or not"........

.......election is not a doctrine intended to exclude anyone....it is intended to be an assurance to believers that their faith will be fulfilled for eternity, because they would not be concerned about the sufficiency of their faith if they were not chosen of God.....

[darin]

if those who choose not to believe in him are no different than those who do, does that not, in itself, "thwart God's will"?.....I think you would be hard pressed to claim that it is God's will that we choose not to believe in him......



No. That's not twarting God's will. Not sure how you reached that conclusion.



lol.....except, apparently, Calvinists who are anti-God?.......

No, Calvinists are misguided, who seem okay with anti-god theories on His nature.




but humanity has a long history of acting in violation of God's will.....because you claim "elect" is a contradiction to "world" you reject the balance of the verse and made it into "For God so loved the world that he decided to send everyone to heaven whether they believed in his only begotten Son or not"........

.......election is not a doctrine intended to exclude anyone....it is intended to be an assurance to believers that their faith will be fulfilled for eternity, because they would not be concerned about the sufficiency of their faith if they were not chosen of God.....

Absolutely Humanity does things God would rather us not do. The Election of those somehow "saved" by God alone violates OUR free will. That's the problem. It is most certainly a doctrine of exlusion.

[PostmodernProphet]

No. That's not twarting God's will. Not sure how you reached that conclusion.

since the logic path is clear in the section you quoted I'm puzzled by your puzzlement.....

[darin]

since the logic path is clear in the section you quoted I'm puzzled by your puzzlement.....

God's nature is to allow people to choose him or not. Because Love is incompatible with mind control/coersion, and other stuff Calvinism proposes, calvinism is not compatible with God. God's nature is to love and bless those who have not chosen to love him here on earth, as much and often more than those who do.

[revelarts]

God's nature is to allow people to choose him or not. Because Love is incompatible with mind control/coersion, and other stuff Calvinism proposes, calvinism is not compatible with God. God's nature is to love and bless those who have not chosen to love him here on earth, as much and often more than those who do.

ANd you know your definition of love and God's are the same becaaaause...

[PostmodernProphet]

God's nature is to allow people to choose him or not. Because Love is incompatible with mind control/coersion, and other stuff Calvinism proposes, calvinism is not compatible with God. God's nature is to love and bless those who have not chosen to love him here on earth, as much and often more than those who do.

the problem isn't your knowledge of God.....the problem is your lack of knowledge about Calvinism.....

[darin]

ANd you know your definition of love and God's are the same becaaaause...


..because if I can understand love to this Degree, I'm certain God - who is much older and wiser - has Love figured out even MORE. :)


I understand Calvinism - which is why I find the teaching terribly sad at best.

[aboutime]

the problem isn't your knowledge of God.....the problem is your lack of knowledge about Calvinism.....


Other than YOU PostmodernProphet. Who demands, or makes it compulsory to have any knowledge of Calvinism?

I've done quite well in my 65 years here on Earth. Never worried, or wondered about such a thing. Does that make me a bad person in your eyes?

[revelarts]

..because if I can understand love to this Degree, I'm certain God - who is much older and wiser - has Love figured out even MORE. :)


I understand Calvinism - which is why I find the teaching terribly sad at best.

So, what you understand about how love works is what counts and other's definitions of how the love of God might work otherwise doesn't count.

And God, your sure, agrees with what you've personally figured out on your own because your both wise but he's wiser.

Well that settles it then doesn't it?

[aboutime]

So, what you understand about how love works is what counts and other's definitions of how the love of God might work otherwise doesn't count.

And God, your sure, agrees with what you've personally figured out on your own because your both wise but he's wiser.

Well that settles it then doesn't it?


revelarts. NOBODY living today, or in the past can ever answer that question. All of us personally figure things out the way we want them to be figured out. There is no competition to see WHO is wiser, since NOBODY HERE can honestly claim they have spoken with the BIG GUY to ask him.
And. Since many believe the BIG GUY is a fictitious character in a Book. Who would they ask to DECIDE what the rest of us believe?

Personally. I have figured it out. Despite how I despise those who are determined to Kill me, and my family because I DO NOT BELIEVE as they believe. I still am bound by my beliefs, based on Christianity to Love My Neighbor. Even if he or she is my enemy.
I know that's hard for many to understand, or believe.
And Loving my neighbor as I would want him/her to love me IS ALL ANY OF US CAN ASK.
I am sure I know the meaning of Love, and nobody. NOT EVEN YOU, are qualified to question that.

[revelarts]

revelarts. NOBODY living today, or in the past can ever answer that question. All of us personally figure things out the way we want them to be figured out. There is no competition to see WHO is wiser, since NOBODY HERE can honestly claim they have spoken with the BIG GUY to ask him.
And. Since many believe the BIG GUY is a fictitious character in a Book. Who would they ask to DECIDE what the rest of us believe?

Personally. I have figured it out. Despite how I despise those who are determined to Kill me, and my family because I DO NOT BELIEVE as they believe. I still am bound by my beliefs, based on Christianity to Love My Neighbor. Even if he or she is my enemy.
I know that's hard for many to understand, or believe.
And Loving my neighbor as I would want him/her to love me IS ALL ANY OF US CAN ASK.
I am sure I know the meaning of Love, and nobody. NOT EVEN YOU, are qualified to question that.

About
DMP is the one questioning,
No, he's has decided that Calvinist are misguided and have no clear idea of what love is, or who God "really" is here.
I'm not sure why I'm getting the lecture here?

[PostmodernProphet]

Other than YOU PostmodernProphet. Who demands, or makes it compulsory to have any knowledge of Calvinism?

I've done quite well in my 65 years here on Earth. Never worried, or wondered about such a thing. Does that make me a bad person in your eyes?

any fool that claims Calvinism is anti-God had better have an understanding of it or keep his mouth shut.....if that isn't obvious to you, seek help......

[aboutime]

any fool that claims Calvinism is anti-God had better have an understanding of it or keep his mouth shut.....if that isn't obvious to you, seek help......

PostmodernProphet. Please show me, or anyone else here. Where I said anything about Calvinism being Anti, or Pro Anything.

As for seeking help. For what? Because YOU say so? Would you do me a huge favor and agree to pay all of my medical bills, and those of my wife? Then, and only then. If you agree to do so. Will I seek that HELP you comically suggested.

[PostmodernProphet]

PostmodernProphet. Please show me, or anyone else here. Where I said anything about Calvinism being Anti, or Pro Anything.

dude.....have you even read DMP's posts?......you're attacking my response to him, so you're stuck with what he said.....

[tailfins]

any fool that claims Calvinism is anti-God had better have an understanding of it or keep his mouth shut.....if that isn't obvious to you, seek help......

Thanks for the defense, however, the following verse comes to mind.

Matthew 5:22


But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

[darin]

So, what you understand about how love works is what counts and other's definitions of how the love of God might work otherwise doesn't count.

And God, your sure, agrees with what you've personally figured out on your own because your both wise but he's wiser.

Well that settles it then doesn't it?


No I'm saying If I can figure this out based on my human limitiations, our Creator knows it much-better.

God can't be anti-love. Calvinism is anti-love becuase it removes free will from humanity.

[PostmodernProphet]

I am sick of this shit.......first it's Mormons, now Calvinists......apparently the Baptists insist on being alone in heaven.......might as well give you a taste of what that would be like.....

[darin]

I am sick of this shit.......first it's Mormons, now Calvinists......apparently the Baptists insist on being alone in heaven.......might as well give you a taste of what that would be like.....


Thank God he's given us the absolute free will to decide we're sick of something. :) Calvin would likely say you being sick of that is only because God pre-destined you to be sick of it at this point. :)

;)

[tailfins]

I am sick of this shit.......first it's Mormons, now Calvinists......apparently the Baptists insist on being alone in heaven.......might as well give you a taste of what that would be like.....

Many Baptists ARE Calvinists. Baptist is a vague denomination. Calvinist is a set of beliefs. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the KKK are associated with Baptists.

[revelarts]

No I'm saying If I can figure this out based on my human limitiations, our Creator knows it much-better.

God can't be anti-love. Calvinism is anti-love because it removes free will from humanity.

here's the thing DMP, if we are just going on what we think well then,
I've figured out something different, Surely God agrees with me since he knows even better than I. And has a perfect understanding of his own words.

God's Sovereignty Isn't Anti Love. God's love is shown in it.
If you don't see it maybe it's because or those limitations you mentioned.

DMP look it's fine if we're going to disagree. You have every right to position. That's fine.
but if your going to try beat Calvinism down in favor of your own view you should bring more to table than your personal views of how love works and a side of conveniently agreeable 'interpretations' of scripture.

[darin]

here's the thing DMP, if we are just going on what we think well then,
I've figured out something different, Surely God agrees with me since he knows even better than I. And has a perfect understanding of his own words.

God's Sovereignty Isn't Anti Love. God's love is shown in it.
If you don't see it maybe it's because or those limitations you mentioned.

DMP look it's fine if we're going to disagree. You have every right to position. That's fine.
but if your going to try beat Calvinism down in favor of your own view you should bring more to table than your personal views of how love works and a side of conveniently agreeable 'interpretations' of scripture.


I don't want to beat calvinism down - I want folks who buy it to think for a few seconds. To apply what they know of God to Calvin's opinion and I'm very sure those folk will see the fallacy of what Calvin proposed. Calvin's misinterpretation of God's sovereignty isn't the question. In fact, if God's sovereignty is the center point of Calvinism, then nobody ever and for all time goes to hell. Are calvinists ready to be okay with that?

Frankly, Calvinism teaches an eliteness and petulence to God I cannot find anywhere in scripture.

[Abbey Marie]

But of cousre you do know that there are other learned Catholic priest, Imams, Rabbis, many pastors from Protestant religions that do in fact believe their 'take' is the one and only answer to the question of salvation.

And many are tolerant of other faiths, in the sense that they respect all peoples right to believe what the will. They just believe that others are sincere, but sincerely wrong.

That's not a crime or inconsistent with Christianity to take that view. And frankly it's been the teaching of Jesus the apostles and Christianity for most of the past 2000 years. If you look historically you'll find that the view "all/many roads leads to heaven" has only gained traction since the 1900's starting in Europe with some modern theologians.



John
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts
10 .......Peter said.. then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 Jesus is“‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

:clap:
Bravo, Rev. There is a big difference between "tolerating" another's different beliefs, and thinking those differences don't matter a whit.

I have also noticed that the more classroom-learned the individual pastor/rabbi, etc., the more they seem to stray from the harder truths of the Bible/Torah. I sometimes think these degrees should be more like "Masters in Homogenization" or "Bachelors in Relativism".

[tailfins]

:clap:
Bravo, Rev. There is a big difference between "tolerating" another's different beliefs, and believing those differences don't matter a whit.

I have also noticed that the more classroom-learned the individual pastor/rabbi, etc., the more they seem to stray from the harder truths of the Bible/Torah. I sometimes think these degrees should be more like "Masters in Homegenization" or "Bachelors in Relativism".

I tolerate Islam, I don't come anywhere close to believing it.

[darin]

I tolerate Islam, I don't come anywhere close to believing it.


Some teachings in Islam are spot-on. :) Other teachings incite masses to murder people.