Is College Worth It?

[Kathianne]

Not for most, it's becoming apparent:

http://www.minyanville.com/trading-and-investing/personal-finance/articles/Shocking-Chart-on-Tuition-Vs-Earnings/11/30/2012/id/46251


Shocking Chart on Tuition Vs. Earnings for College Grads

Student debt levels (http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Life-Money/Education/Student-Loans.aspx) have reached a new high – rising $42 billion in the last quarter to $956 billion, according to a report this week from the New York Fed (http://www.newyorkfed.org/newsevents/news/research/2012/an121127.html). At the same time, tuitionhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.minyanville.com/trading-and-investing/personal-finance/articles/Shocking-Chart-on-Tuition-Vs-Earnings/11/30/2012/id/46251#) rates have seen a staggering 72% increase since 2000.

As if those two upward trends weren’t hitting students hard enough, the average earnings for full-time workershttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/lb_icon1.png (http://www.minyanville.com/trading-and-investing/personal-finance/articles/Shocking-Chart-on-Tuition-Vs-Earnings/11/30/2012/id/46251#) ages 25-34 with bachelor’s degrees has also dropped 14.7% since 2000. The chart below from Citi shows the striking contrast:

http://image.minyanville.com/assets/FCK_Jan2011/images/Liz%20Nov%202012/studentloan.jpg

The diverging trends are taking a toll on students and recent grads. Studenthttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.minyanville.com/trading-and-investing/personal-finance/articles/Shocking-Chart-on-Tuition-Vs-Earnings/11/30/2012/id/46251#) loan delinquency rates now exceed those of credit card, mortgage, and all other types of consumer debt. And many indebted grads are being forced to delay buying homes, having children, and saving for retirement.

While President Obama has supported increasing the availability of student loanshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.minyanville.com/trading-and-investing/personal-finance/articles/Shocking-Chart-on-Tuition-Vs-Earnings/11/30/2012/id/46251#), others are questioning if student loans are becoming too easy to obtain (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324469304578145092893766844.html?u ser=welcome&mg=id-wsj), putting those who have no hope of paying off the loan into crushing life-long debt.

Read more: http://www.minyanville.com/trading-and-investing/personal-finance/articles/Shocking-Chart-on-Tuition-Vs-Earnings/11/30/2012/id/46251#ixzz2Dq7hAxDk

...

[Kathianne]

I'd give 8th graders books like this for 'graduation':

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591845610?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creativeASIN=1591845610&linkCode=xm2&tag=insta0c-20


The Education of Millionaires: Everything You Won't Learn in College About How to Be Successful [Paperback] Michael Ellsberg (http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Ellsberg/e/B002XNKKHK/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1) <input id="contributorASINB002XNKKHK" value="B002XNKKHK" type="hidden">
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[Robert A Whit]

When I used to post on AOL, at times I offered tips on how to get rich.

Sadly, democrats could not tolerate this so I gave up. Republicans of course liked it. I found that most republicans are not in need many tips.;)

[cadet]

Mechanical engineering degree is basically worthless too. I was designing stuff as a summer job. Add that to being a mechanic (On the job training) and to spend the money to get the degree is completely worthless.
there are people that could listen to a car and tell you exactly where your car needs fixed, know how to jerry rig it into perfection, and know ever type make and models engine, and yet they can't get a mechanical engineers job cause they don't have the degree.

My grandma knew her company inside and out, and could run the whole thing, they wouldn't give her the promotion to be in charge cause she didn't have a business degree. so they gave it to some punk strait out of college who screwed up horribly.

[Abbey Marie]

Not for most, it's becoming apparent:
While President Obama has supported increasing the availability of student loanshttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/icon1.png (http://www.minyanville.com/trading-and-investing/personal-finance/articles/Shocking-Chart-on-Tuition-Vs-Earnings/11/30/2012/id/46251#), others are questioning if student loans are becoming too easy to obtain (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324469304578145092893766844.html?u ser=welcome&mg=id-wsj), putting those who have no hope of paying off the loan into crushing life-long debt.
http://www.minyanville.com/trading-and-investing/personal-finance/articles/Shocking-Chart-on-Tuition-Vs-Earnings/11/30/2012/id/46251

Reminds me of the housing loans of the Barney Frank era.

[aboutime]

Mechanical engineering degree is basically worthless too. I was designing stuff as a summer job. Add that to being a mechanic (On the job training) and to spend the money to get the degree is completely worthless.
there are people that could listen to a car and tell you exactly where your car needs fixed, know how to jerry rig it into perfection, and know ever type make and models engine, and yet they can't get a mechanical engineers job cause they don't have the degree.

My grandma knew her company inside and out, and could run the whole thing, they wouldn't give her the promotion to be in charge cause she didn't have a business degree. so they gave it to some punk strait out of college who screwed up horribly.


cadet. So, you are now telling us "It's useless to become successful, more educated, or self reliant, and independent?"

That sounds like a pretty Negative example you are setting to others who might be more willing to become more successful than you.

[Kathianne]

Mechanical engineering degree is basically worthless too. I was designing stuff as a summer job. Add that to being a mechanic (On the job training) and to spend the money to get the degree is completely worthless.
there are people that could listen to a car and tell you exactly where your car needs fixed, know how to jerry rig it into perfection, and know ever type make and models engine, and yet they can't get a mechanical engineers job cause they don't have the degree.

My grandma knew her company inside and out, and could run the whole thing, they wouldn't give her the promotion to be in charge cause she didn't have a business degree. so they gave it to some punk strait out of college who screwed up horribly.

I don't know if you're saying 'worthless with or without a degree?' Salary.com says that Mechanical Engineer I makes an average of just over $65k. Mechanical Engineer II just over $72k. Mechanical Engineer III, avg about $85,500. Mechanical Engineer V averages over $112k per year.

That seems worth it to me.

Basically most employable BS degrees, stuff hard in math and science, will get one a decent salary.

What's not 'paying for the costs' are the liberal arts, which really can be self-taught in practice. No, you can't teach without a degree, but the basics underlying English, History, Geography, can be self-taught, without all that much effort.

I do tend to think this is where online education may well meet the prerequisites necessary and folks will turn to the universities only for the practical, hands on work they can deliver. I can see a time where those wishing to major in history, for example, complete their work on their own, take an online exam. If successful at a certain percentage, move on for practical teaching hours and student teaching and their credentials.

[Robert A Whit]

Khan academy sure looks good. You can ask them questions when you don't
get it.

[Kathianne]

Khan academy sure looks good. You can ask them questions when you don't
get it.

Never said the site wasn't top notch. Why do you look for fights?

[tailfins]

cadet. So, you are now telling us "It's useless to become successful, more educated, or self reliant, and independent?"

That sounds like a pretty Negative example you are setting to others who might be more willing to become more successful than you.

I'm looking at this and wondering. Is four years worth of Microsoft certification study worth as much as a degree? And if you do get a degree, perhaps a "bargain" state school is where it's still worth what you pay for the tuition. I paid $1,200/year for tuition in the late 1980s. The same school is now $8,000/year.

The deal I expect to offer my kids is this: I pay tuition, you live at home. Getting to school is your burden.

[Kathianne]

I'm looking at this and wondering. Is four years worth of Microsoft certification study worth as much as a degree? And if you do get a degree, perhaps a "bargain" state school is where it's still worth what you pay for the tuition.

Perhaps for most, 2 years at DeVry is better than 4 years at U of name it.

[tailfins]

Perhaps for most, 2 years at DeVry is better than 4 years at U of name it.

A Computer Science degree from DeVry is about $77,000 . A Computer Science degree from UCONN is about $40,000. Which would you pick?

[Robert A Whit]

Never said the site wasn't top notch. Why do you look for fights?

Final comment only by you.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Kathianne]

Never said the site wasn't top notch. Why do you look for fights?

Final comment only by you.

What the hell are you talking about?



Some problem here with quotes. So, the link he failed to provide:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?38049-Is-College-Worth-It&p=596891#post596891

[tailfins]

Never said the site wasn't top notch. Why do you look for fights?

Final comment only by you.

What the hell are you talking about?



Robert: Try to understand that we all come from RADICALLY different backgrounds. Remember when you asked a bona-fide question about Venn Diagrams and I thought it was an insult? You actually wanted to know about Venn Diagrams and weren't trying to say: "Hey stupid, do I need to draw you a picture".

[fj1200]

... at times I offered tips on how to get rich.

Are you rich?

[fj1200]

Not for most, it's becoming apparent:

Do you know that you would be appointed Czar of Reading Stuff in the fj/lr administration?

[Nukeman]

cadet. So, you are now telling us "It's useless to become successful, more educated, or self reliant, and independent?"

That sounds like a pretty Negative example you are setting to others who might be more willing to become more successful than you.I beleive you are misreading or interpreting what he said. I see it this way.

There are folks out there who can and will understand any profession better with OJT than they will with a degree with MANY useless classes added in to pad the college coffers.

He never stated that it is useless to be educated, successful, or self reliant. He stated that he felt sometimes degrees are over rated and redundant. Lots of careers that "require" a degree today are just looking for a piece of paper with no skill set, when they already have the skill sets in front of them but refuse to look at them due to no paper..

You don't have to go to college to be educated and know your career in fact I would hazard to state that MOST college graduates learn more in the first 2 years on the job than they EVER did in the 4 years of college.. College does NOT teach you your profession it gives you the information to find out how to do your chosen profession..

[tailfins]

I beleive you are misreading or interpreting what he said. I see it this way.

There are folks out there who can and will understand any profession better with OJT than they will with a degree with MANY useless classes added in to pad the college coffers.

He never stated that it is useless to be educated, successful, or self reliant. He stated that he felt sometimes degrees are over rated and redundant. Lots of careers that "require" a degree today are just looking for a piece of paper with no skill set, when they already have the skill sets in front of them but refuse to look at them due to no paper..

You don't have to go to college to be educated and know your career in fact I would hazard to state that MOST college graduates learn more in the first 2 years on the job than they EVER did in the 4 years of college.. College does NOT teach you your profession it gives you the information to find out how to do your chosen profession..

In large corporations requiring a degree is a means to filter out used car salesmen that talk a good game, but are not really competent in the profession. The worst boss I ever had was hired with a waiver of the degree requirement. Maybe letting certifications be considered would be ok.

[aboutime]

I beleive you are misreading or interpreting what he said. I see it this way.

There are folks out there who can and will understand any profession better with OJT than they will with a degree with MANY useless classes added in to pad the college coffers.

He never stated that it is useless to be educated, successful, or self reliant. He stated that he felt sometimes degrees are over rated and redundant. Lots of careers that "require" a degree today are just looking for a piece of paper with no skill set, when they already have the skill sets in front of them but refuse to look at them due to no paper..

You don't have to go to college to be educated and know your career in fact I would hazard to state that MOST college graduates learn more in the first 2 years on the job than they EVER did in the 4 years of college.. College does NOT teach you your profession it gives you the information to find out how to do your chosen profession..


I totally understand, and agree with you about the OJT, and how not everyone needs a college degree. We've all seen that personally, in many respects. What I wanted to say was just my way of saying...if someone wants to better themself in any way. If they have the opportunity to do so. Nobody should stand in their way, or suggest their intentions to better themselves would be harmful...FOR THEM.
Telling anyone IT'S NOT WORTH IT, when they have been spending much of their life, trying to succeed just isn't what I would call the American, or Logical way to tell them.
How many of us have always been told, or reminded...as Americans. How we can, and should become anything we put our mind to becoming in life?
In fact. Nobody knows better than those who have become successful, and even wealthy. Who have never attended a college, or worked for a degree.
I just think it's wrong to make a sweeping statement...especially from someone who has gone to college, gotten a degree, and still hasn't reached their goals of being what they hoped would be the result of their education. That is commonplace today in this nation, and most of us know. There are College students, and even grads who are working at menial jobs...like MacDonalds. But those jobs are, and should be TEMPORARY, and not LIFELONG answers to dreams of Degree's gone wrong.

If I sounded contradictory. I stated it wrong. And, since I am by no means the smartest person here...unlike Gabby, or others. I sometimes have trouble expressing myself properly.
In the end. I still believe. Anyone CAN, and SHOULD always Dream, and attempt to achieve whatever they want in life. But they should do it to PLEASE THEMSELF....not anyone else, or to impress others who really DO NOT CARE.

[Kathianne]

Do you know that you would be appointed Czar of Reading Stuff in the fj/lr administration?

No. Who? I'd like to be in the running. I'm pretty versed in 'reading stuff.' LOL!

[fj1200]

No. Who? I'd like to be in the running. I'm pretty versed in 'reading stuff.' LOL!

I know, you might even be overqualified for the position. :laugh:

[KitchenKitten99]

Not all degrees are useless. It all depends on what your end-goal is for career and outlook of the industry. I have an AAS in Culinary Arts from a private school. An expensive degree (and pretty unnecessary) if I was to become just a line cook or even an exec chef, which is not what I want to do.

However...I have found that my talents don't lay within slinging plates on a Friday night dinner rush. Mine are business management/development and creative design (menu and interior), and concept development.

Most restaurants now want managers (either FOH or BOH) to have a culinary degree (some accept the certificate). Same with restaurant consultant firms (there are a few here in MN).

I also am interested in nutrition education and I am exploring getting my Bachelor's in something along those lines, or maybe some sort of marketing/advertisement.

Because of the way the culture is going in this country, I think it would be smart for me to get into a semi-medical related field that will always have a use. Especially with my first-hand experience with diabetes (DH has it, as does his mom, and my ex's father too), and knowing people with gluten intolerance, etc.

I want to keep my career options open with my existing education because Obamacare laws and taxes are going to fuck the restaurant industry hardcore. Like "bend over buttercup, using sand, and no kiss" hardcore.

Most places I have looked into lately that have anything to do with nutrition/dietary want a BS in Nutrition or similar.

Problem is, with my culinary degree, there aren't that many programs for nutrition out there that would use my existing degree and then add to it with emphasizing nutrition/dietary, especially online. I don't have time for going to classes, except maybe 1-2 nights/week. Most of the BS degrees are from ground-up so I would have to start all over and the average cost of those programs runs about $90k. NO EFFING WAY. My AAS was $42k. I am not going to pile another $90k on for a career that averages about $60-80k/yr for salary depending on where/what you do.

I found one place that does offer a BS in Culinary Arts with emphasis on nutrition using my existing culinary arts degree and offers the online courses. I have requested info from them.

[cadet]

I beleive you are misreading or interpreting what he said. I see it this way.

There are folks out there who can and will understand any profession better with OJT than they will with a degree with MANY useless classes added in to pad the college coffers.

He never stated that it is useless to be educated, successful, or self reliant. He stated that he felt sometimes degrees are over rated and redundant. Lots of careers that "require" a degree today are just looking for a piece of paper with no skill set, when they already have the skill sets in front of them but refuse to look at them due to no paper..

You don't have to go to college to be educated and know your career in fact I would hazard to state that MOST college graduates learn more in the first 2 years on the job than they EVER did in the 4 years of college.. College does NOT teach you your profession it gives you the information to find out how to do your chosen profession..

THANK YOU, I was about to go off on everyone who posted after me, just to say "Too much emphasis on a piece of paper."

[jimnyc]

I think when we send a kid to college, it's more than just a piece of paper they get, it's also one hell of a learning experience and I think a priceless tool in helping them grow up. I WISH I had stayed at St. Johns long enough to earn my degree, Hell, maybe I'll go back and finish. I would love to see that degree hanging on my wall. It's like training for the real world and shows many employers you are willing to do what is necessary. Oh, and the skills learned aren't so bad either!

I think it still helps open doors and get ones foot in. I don't think it's a controlling factor in higher salaries though. Some of the best and brightest I have seen, made it to the top simply by hard work and experience.

I guess I still hold college as a big part though, as my son is basically registered at Penn State or Virginia Tech already (he's leaning heavily to VT).

[cadet]

...I WISH I had stayed at St. Johns long enough to earn my degree, Hell, maybe I'll go back and finish...

We all know why you'd really go back.... :cheers2:& :boobies:



you>:drool2:

[jimnyc]

We all know why you'd really go back.... :cheers2:& :boobies:



you>:drool2:

Well, admittedly, a man can only do so much to control his eyes, so I couldn't promise I wouldn't do some ogling! But honestly, my primary motivator would be to know I could do it, to prove to myself. And it couldn't hurt future prospects!

[Kathianne]

I think when we send a kid to college, it's more than just a piece of paper they get, it's also one hell of a learning experience and I think a priceless tool in helping them grow up. I WISH I had stayed at St. Johns long enough to earn my degree, Hell, maybe I'll go back and finish. I would love to see that degree hanging on my wall. It's like training for the real world and shows many employers you are willing to do what is necessary. Oh, and the skills learned aren't so bad either!

I think it still helps open doors and get ones foot in. I don't think it's a controlling factor in higher salaries though. Some of the best and brightest I have seen, made it to the top simply by hard work and experience.

I guess I still hold college as a big part though, as my son is basically registered at Penn State or Virginia Tech already (he's leaning heavily to VT).

It's more than a piece of paper, I agree with that. OTOH, the higher education bubble is making it economically foolish to major in liberal arts, unless the parents are 100% footing the bill and have $$$ to burn. That certainly doesn't describe most folks today.

With the exception of my ex, all I know in IT and related fields attended some college, but didn't graduate. The ex has BA in sociology, MA in same, and MBA. Really had 0 training for IT, but started at phone company as a service rep. ;) They paid him to learn computers with an interhouse transfer to IT. Requirement to have degree, (in anything), to get that entry IT job.

Years later, when the manager of project managers, he was able to get rid of BA/BS degree requirement. His first choice of schooling was Devry, but would consider 'self-taught.' The worst hire he had was a computer related honors grad from Northwestern. The guy thought 'he knew more than anyone,' yet he couldn't be trained on the newest languages and applications.

Generally if someone is majoring in a professional degree that's required: teaching, engineering, law, medicine, accounting, etc., the costs will be worth the degree.

[Robert A Whit]

[QUOTE=Robert A Whit;596916]

Robert: Try to understand that we all come from RADICALLY different backgrounds. Remember when you asked a bona-fide question about Venn Diagrams and I thought it was an insult? You actually wanted to know about Venn Diagrams and weren't trying to say: "Hey stupid, do I need to draw you a picture".

There is no way I had any idea that you think that way. Maybe you need to heed that same advice and understand my background is very different.

Now when I hear the term Venn Diagrams, I understand. I am too blunt to insult that way anyway. When I want to insult a person, It is not done lightly. I don't plan to insult anybody on this forum. i read some insults today that made me wonder how said person can post.

[Kathianne]

[QUOTE=tailfins;596919]

[quote]There is no way I had any idea that you think that way. Maybe you need to heed that same advice and understand my background is very different.


Now when I hear the term Venn Diagrams, I understand. I am too blunt to insult that way anyway. When I want to insult a person, It is not done lightly. I don't plan to insult anybody on this forum. i read some insults today that made me wonder how said person can post.

Bob, you seem to have a problem understanding others, I've been victimized often enough. He was trying to say, 'Remember when some jumped on your Venn post,' like myself. It seemed impossible to me that someone didn't know Venn. My hubris, which I apologized for.

He's saying to keep that in mind with these responses, instead you jump on him.

Then YOU feel victimized. Sheesh!

[gabosaurus]

Depends on what you are looking for.
I advise a lot of my kids to attend vocational classes at community colleges or specialty schools. Not everyone needs a full degree from a four-year college.
At the same time, many are served well by getting four-year degrees. My husband got a business degree from UCLA. His first job was with a company where the person doing the hiring had a degree from -- UCLA.
My job requires a masters degree. Which is what I obtained.

Also, not every degree has to be incredibly expensive. There are quite a lot of grants and scholarships available.
My husband and I both have degrees. Total cost to us -- zero.
My sister's charge is a high school senior who earned a scholarship to attend a college in Florida.

You can achieve what you want to achieve.

[aboutime]

Depends on what you are looking for.
I advise a lot of my kids to attend vocational classes at community colleges or specialty schools. Not everyone needs a full degree from a four-year college.
At the same time, many are served well by getting four-year degrees. My husband got a business degree from UCLA. His first job was with a company where the person doing the hiring had a degree from -- UCLA.
My job requires a masters degree. Which is what I obtained.

Also, not every degree has to be incredibly expensive. There are quite a lot of grants and scholarships available.
My husband and I both have degrees. Total cost to us -- zero.
My sister's charge is a high school senior who earned a scholarship to attend a college in Florida.

You can achieve what you want to achieve.


Gabby. Not everyone was aware that any MASTERS DEGREE was awarded for studies in Liberalism, and Stupidity. Congrats.

[Kathianne]

Depends on what you are looking for.
I advise a lot of my kids to attend vocational classes at community colleges or specialty schools. Not everyone needs a full degree from a four-year college.
At the same time, many are served well by getting four-year degrees. My husband got a business degree from UCLA. His first job was with a company where the person doing the hiring had a degree from -- UCLA.
My job requires a masters degree. Which is what I obtained.

Also, not every degree has to be incredibly expensive. There are quite a lot of grants and scholarships available.
My husband and I both have degrees. Total cost to us -- zero.
My sister's charge is a high school senior who earned a scholarship to attend a college in Florida.

You can achieve what you want to achieve.

No, not everyone can. Truth is the bubble is at breaking point. Unless the student is in one of the demand fields, they better look closely.

Not all will qualify for scholarships, by definition.

[KitchenKitten99]

No, not everyone can. Truth is the bubble is at breaking point. Unless the student is in one of the demand fields, they better look closely.

Not all will qualify for scholarships, by definition.

I probably won't qualify this time because now I am married. We actually waited to get married partly for that reason. I got a few scholarships based on the fact that I was a 'single mom'. I only owe about $32k because of that.

I am trying to get myself positioned to go into a culinary-related field knowing I might have to abandon the restaurant industry for a while. I can always stage at local places to stay 'in the know' with trends and techniques within the industry.

But I am thinking that diversifying my degree will help me with the ebb and flow of food-related career opportunities. I like to help people eat healthy and work towards their nutrition goals, being a person who has also struggled with my weight over my whole life. Experimenting and finding recipes to make so that family and friends with special dietary needs can enjoy the treats and meals I make without much worry.

[Robert A Whit]

=Kathianne;597291

Bob, you seem to have a problem understanding others, I've been victimized often enough. He was trying to say, 'Remember when some jumped on your Venn post,' like myself. It seemed impossible to me that someone didn't know Venn. My hubris, which I apologized for.

He's saying to keep that in mind with these responses, instead you jump on him.

Then YOU feel victimized. Sheesh!


Actually, had you asked me, I would have told you that indeed I have problems understanding posts like you just made. I fully understood what he was talking about. You know, I am 74. Don't you suppose that I have had decades to understand people. I also must see things you can't see. Such as what on earth compelled him to even bring that up?

I did not jump on him nor am I jumping on you.

Funny how you now admit you jumped me and apologized. So why jump me again? I am no victim. I believe you don't understand all that well.