Fast Food workers demand higher wages

[Thunderknuckles]

http://www.myfoxny.com/story/20216614/fast-food-workers-protest-for-higher-wages

So, a bunch of McDonald's workers walked out on the job and are demanding an increase in pay to $15/hour and the right to unionize.
I can't even begin to comprehend the minds of these individuals. They actually believe they have a right to be paid a "living wage" for a no skill, entry level job that I did when I was 15. The local McDonald's where I grew up even hired a mentally handicapped student from my High School and that guy became a shift manager for Gods sake. This is a job that a trained chimpanzee could accomplish for the price of a few bananas.


My question to these people is how did you so epically fail in your life that the sum of all your life's experience, knowledge, and wisdom amounted to nothing more than the ability to flip a burger. Really, I don't see how any responsible adult would end up this way. It seems to me that it would take a great deal of effort to fail so miserably.
Effort that could have been better spent on a more productive career pursuit.
I won't even bother with the effect this would have on McDondald's ability to stay in business. Even my 8 year old understands that concept.


On a side note:
Think of all the challenges this country has faced and the achievemnets it has made in its short history.
It is an impressive resume worthy of placing us in the company of human history's greatest nations.
Surely we will face even greater challenges in the future and if it is people like this who will be there to meet those challenges, we will surely fail.

[Larrymc]

http://www.myfoxny.com/story/20216614/fast-food-workers-protest-for-higher-wages

So, a bunch of McDonald's workers walked out on the job and are demanding an increase in pay to $15/hour and the right to unionize.
I can't even begin to comprehend the minds of these individuals. They actually believe they have a right to be paid a "living wage" for a no skill, entry level job that I did when I was 15. The local McDonald's where I grew up even hired a mentally handicapped student from my High School and that guy became a shift manager for Gods sake. This is a job that a trained chimpanzee could accomplish for the price of a few bananas.


My question to these people is how did you so epically fail in your life that the sum of all your life's experience, knowledge, and wisdom amounted to nothing more than the ability to flip a burger. Really, I don't see how any responsible adult would end up this way. It seems to me that it would take a great deal of effort to fail so miserably.
Effort that could have been better spent on a more productive career pursuit.
I won't even bother with the effect this would have on McDondald's ability to stay in business. Even my 8 year old understands that concept.


On a side note:
Think of all the challenges this country has faced and the achievemnets it has made in its short history.
It is an impressive resume worthy of placing us in the company of human history's greatest nations.
Surely we will face even greater challenges in the future and if it is people like this who will be there to meet those challenges, we will surely fail.these is the same minds that think raising the minimum wage will effect them a raise

[pete311]

Trader Joe's and Costco give living wages and benefits. Looks like those companies are doing pretty well.

[darin]

Trader Joe's and Costco give living wages and benefits. Looks like those companies are doing pretty well.

The military provides a living wage and benefits, too!

How about folks UNHAPPY with their pay find another job? Simple.

When everyone makes $50/hr, those BigMacs will cost $36 each. So - throwing money at unskilled, the base, the entry-level of the workforce will only make everything more expensive for everyone.

[Larrymc]

Trader Joe's and Costco give living wages and benefits. Looks like those companies are doing pretty well.when you me and them are paying thirty to forty bucks for a burger they will net nothing, Common Sense

[pete311]

The military provides a living wage and benefits, too!

How about folks UNHAPPY with their pay find another job? Simple.

When everyone makes $50/hr, those BigMacs will cost $36 each. So - throwing money at unskilled, the base, the entry-level of the workforce will only make everything more expensive for everyone.


when you me and them are paying thirty to forty bucks for a burger they will net nothing, Common Sense

Sure the dollar menu might go away, but gimmie a break. These companies are rolling in the dough. Do you have any actual statistical backing for your hyperboles or is it just another hot air rant? Whether or not you agree with giving them a pay raise, people have the right to organize and strike/protest. It's done all the time in big business and sports. Pay me more money or I leave. Sometimes they are let go. Fine. That is how the system works. Don't hate the system. Why would you just leave your job if there was a chance to get more money?

[darin]

Sure the dollar menu might go away, but gimmie a break. These companies are rolling in the dough. Do you have any actual statistical backing for your hyperboles or is it just another hot air rant? Whether or not you agree with giving them a pay raise, people have the right to organize and strike/protest. It's done all the time in big business and sports. Pay me more money or I leave. Sometimes they are let go. Fine. That is how the system works. Don't hate the system. Why would you just leave your job if there was a chance to get more money?


You said it - if they dont like their pay, they should leave. I support people unionizing. I think its stupid because it destroys businesses. But yeah - as long as they can be fired at ANY time, and they are NOT forced to join the union as a condition of employment. More power to them.


But - look, Pete. They should be let go if they aren't loyal to their employer. If they aren't or cannot be loyal to the company paying them a wage commensurate with what they offer the business in return, they should find new work.

Do you REALLY need me to somehow PROVE a very very common-sense idea: When everyone has more money, everything costs more?

[Larrymc]

Sure the dollar menu might go away, but gimmie a break. These companies are rolling in the dough. Do you have any actual statistical backing for your hyperboles or is it just another hot air rant? Whether or not you agree with giving them a pay raise, people have the right to organize and strike/protest. It's done all the time in big business and sports. Pay me more money or I leave. Sometimes they are let go. Fine. That is how the system works. Don't hate the system. Why would you just leave your job if there was a chance to get more money?why would anyone in that position unless they are educated enough to move up think there going to get more, while staying in the same job, i mean are they so ignorant that they don't know that's a bottom rung job

[pete311]

You said it - if they dont like their pay, they should leave.

Why would they leave? No different than you going to your boss and saying, I think I'm worth this, pay it, or I leave.



But - look, Pete. They should be let go if they aren't loyal to their employer. If they aren't or cannot be loyal to the company paying them a wage commensurate with what they offer the business in return, they should find new work.


This really is the debate question. How much are they worth. I don't know exactly and I be delighted if you could figure it out. $8 seems low. Yes they are flipping burgers and punching buttons, but I would make $20/hr mowing lawns. The skill set isn't much more complicated, if anything working a cash machine is more difficult than pushing a lawn mower. As i said before, both Trader Joe's and CostCo give their stockers and checkout ppl benefits and a living wage. They are successful companies.



Do you REALLY need me to somehow PROVE a very very common-sense idea: When everyone has more money, everything costs more?

Sounds like a vote for higher taxes. We don't want to get too much money. Will make all prices go up. Good thing the gov is there to save us from collecting too much money.

[aboutime]

How many of us? The present members here. While growing up. Ever heard any of our friends, or even strangers in school, or college classes say "Someday. I want to be a MacDonalds Flipper, and French Fries Dipper!" ?

And. Other than the MacDonalds...so-called college for Franchisee's. Is anyone aware of ANY Institute, College, University, or school building ANYWHERE in this entire nation that awards "DEGREE'S" for Flippers, and Dippers?

Not once in my entire life of 65 years have I ever heard anyone's child, or grandchild say
"Someday. I will succeed with Burgers, and Milk Shakes!"

[tailfins]

$15/hr in NYC is like $2.50/hr in Florida or other low cost area. Before Obama wrecked the economy, $12/hr was possible in fast food in some urban locations. McDonald's pays the wage they seek ($15/hr) in Williston, ND.

http://money.msn.com/investing/unemployed-go-to-north-dakota-cnbc.aspx

[pete311]

How many of us? The present members here. While growing up. Ever heard any of our friends, or even strangers in school, or college classes say "Someday. I want to be a MacDonalds Flipper, and French Fries Dipper!"

What difference does that make?

Some of you bitch and moan about gov assistance, aka food stamps and then bitch about workers wanting fair pay which would allow them to get off gov assistance. Either mcdonalds pays their workers living wage or you got a shit ton of ppl getting food stamps. which is it?

[aboutime]

What difference does that make?

Some of you bitch and moan about gov assistance, aka food stamps and then bitch about workers wanting fair pay which would allow them to get off gov assistance. Either mcdonalds pays their workers living wage or you got a shit ton of ppl getting food stamps. which is it?


Pete. Let's just imagine for a second. You are suddenly out of work after being laid-off from your 15 dollar per hour job in whatever profession you claim.
And then. At your lunch hour. You stop at a MacDonalds for a quick burger, drink and fries and a High School student who works there after school...is making exactly the same amount as you.

THAT'S A DIFFERENCE YOU HAVE TO DECIDE.

[pete311]

Pete. Let's just imagine for a second. You are suddenly out of work after being laid-off from your 15 dollar per hour job in whatever profession you claim.
And then. At your lunch hour. You stop at a MacDonalds for a quick burger, drink and fries and a High School student who works there after school...is making exactly the same amount as you.

THAT'S A DIFFERENCE YOU HAVE TO DECIDE.

The problem with your example is that $15/hr for any job is still likely unskilled. $28k/yr is still a joke.

[aboutime]

The problem with your example is that $15/hr for any job is still likely unskilled. $28k/yr is still a joke.


If you say so. Now. Since you totally ignored responding to my question about you, lunch, and a teenager making the same as you (as an example). You told me the PROBLEM with my example, and sounded more liberally like Obama. Dodging a question.

Would you kindly just answer my question instead of telling me MY PROBLEM...according to you?

[pete311]

If you say so. Now. Since you totally ignored responding to my question about you, lunch, and a teenager making the same as you (as an example). You told me the PROBLEM with my example, and sounded more liberally like Obama. Dodging a question.

Would you kindly just answer my question instead of telling me MY PROBLEM...according to you?

I read your scenario and failed to see a problem with it. So what?

[aboutime]

I read your scenario and failed to see a problem with it. So what?


Never mind. Thanks Mrs. Pelosi.

[Thunderknuckles]

Either mcdonalds pays their workers living wage or you got a shit ton of ppl getting food stamps. which is it?
Neither. How about picking up a skill that earns you a living instead of it being handed to you for doing a job any child over the age of 10 could do.
How does any human being go through life without picking up even a modest skill, capitalizing on a god given talent, or pursuing a passion?
This is not a choice that would have been acceptable to the prior generations of Americans who had the drive, imagination, and entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great
How sad it is to me that you see nothing wrong with this entire scenario. My grandfather would have beaten me with a stick had I brought a family into the world and flipping a burger was all I could do to provide for them....and he be right to do it!

[tailfins]

Neither. How about picking up a skill that earns you a living instead of it being handed to you for doing a job any child over the age of 10 could do.
How does any human being go through life without picking up even a modest skill, capitalizing on a god given talent, or pursuing a passion?
This is not a choice that would have been acceptable to the prior generations of Americans who had the drive, imagination, and entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great
How sad it is to me that you see nothing wrong with this entire scenario. My grandfather would have beaten me with a stick had I brought a family into the world and flipping a burger was all I could do to provide for them....and he be right to do it!

Maybe they should visit JFK or LaGuardia and apply with the TSA. I hear they pay $15+/hr and they would all be qualified.

[aboutime]

Neither. How about picking up a skill that earns you a living instead of it being handed to you for doing a job any child over the age of 10 could do.
How does any human being go through life without picking up even a modest skill, capitalizing on a god given talent, or pursuing a passion?
This is not a choice that would have been acceptable to the prior generations of Americans who had the drive, imagination, and entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great
How sad it is to me that you see nothing wrong with this entire scenario. My grandfather would have beaten me with a stick had I brought a family into the world and flipping a burger was all I could do to provide for them....and he be right to do it!


Thanks Thunder. But I do understand Pete's attitude very well. I have seen it countless times over the years. He has little, if any incentives to succeed more than allowing someone to work at a MacDonalds because. He probably has never tried to succeed more than he has accepted his position in life today. Whatever that happens to be.
Our entire society seems to have settled on just GETTING BY. Not worried about actually Succeeding in life, and happy to JUST GET ALONG. Being the New Slaves of a Government that thrives on Uselessness, and gets paid for Nothingness.
No goals in life when Instant Gratification, and Selfishness get you everything from the Govt. you need...without working for it.

[pete311]

Neither. How about picking up a skill that earns you a living instead of it being handed to you for doing a job any child over the age of 10 could do.
How does any human being go through life without picking up even a modest skill, capitalizing on a god given talent, or pursuing a passion?
This is not a choice that would have been acceptable to the prior generations of Americans who had the drive, imagination, and entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great
How sad it is to me that you see nothing wrong with this entire scenario. My grandfather would have beaten me with a stick had I brought a family into the world and flipping a burger was all I could do to provide for them....and he be right to do it!

you are opening a major can of worms on the current state of american poverty. yes there are plenty of examples where people pull themselves out of poverty, but in vast majority of cases poverty breeds poverty and it becomes generational. this is the problem with destroying the middle class. i would bet most career burger flippers are from generational poverty where they had no parental or environmental support system. what do you do with these people?

[Thunderknuckles]

what do you do with these people?
Teach them how to fish.

[aboutime]

Teach them how to fish.



Thunderknuckles. I believe PETE was actually asking "What can I do as a poor person?"

[Larrymc]

Why would they leave? No different than you going to your boss and saying, I think I'm worth this, pay it, or I leave.



This really is the debate question. How much are they worth. I don't know exactly and I be delighted if you could figure it out. $8 seems low. Yes they are flipping burgers and punching buttons, but I would make $20/hr mowing lawns. The skill set isn't much more complicated, if anything working a cash machine is more difficult than pushing a lawn mower. As i said before, both Trader Joe's and CostCo give their stockers and checkout ppl benefits and a living wage. They are successful companies.



Sounds like a vote for higher taxes. We don't want to get too much money. Will make all prices go up. Good thing the gov is there to save us from collecting too much money. there is and has always been bottom rung jobs, if you want more than you must make an effort, get educated, move to a field that has higher pay at the bottom, mowing lawns requires many skills a operation lawn equipment, drivers license, towing a trailer, some kind a money handling, equipment maintenance, all may seem trivial, but to many who have those first jobs its a lot, not to mention its hot, cold, hard labor, so really no comparison, if you ask me its just another example of spoiled people in this country who think, even though they make no extra effort, they deserve the same as everyone else, but they got it honestly so to speak the liberals have tout them that,

[Larrymc]

Neither. How about picking up a skill that earns you a living instead of it being handed to you for doing a job any child over the age of 10 could do.
How does any human being go through life without picking up even a modest skill, capitalizing on a god given talent, or pursuing a passion?
This is not a choice that would have been acceptable to the prior generations of Americans who had the drive, imagination, and entrepreneurial spirit that made this country great
How sad it is to me that you see nothing wrong with this entire scenario. My grandfather would have beaten me with a stick had I brought a family into the world and flipping a burger was all I could do to provide for them....and he be right to do it!now that's the truth

[pete311]

there is and has always been bottom rung jobs, if you want more than you must make an effort, get educated, move to a field that has higher pay at the bottom, mowing lawns requires many skills a operation lawn equipment, drivers license, towing a trailer, some kind a money handling, equipment maintenance, all may seem trivial, but to many who have those first jobs its a lot, not to mention its hot, cold, hard labor, so really no comparison, if you ask me its just another example of spoiled people in this country who think, even though they make no extra effort, they deserve the same as everyone else, but they got it honestly so to speak the liberals have tout them that,

meh, I mowed lawns for 5 years in high school and I was an idiot.

Why is someone who asks for a raise spoiled? Happens all the time in jobs. These people aren't exactly asking a lot. $15/h is still rubbish. btw, how is someone working at burger kind supposed to get educated? I don't think they'll have enough for a decent college. Pay these people a fair price and they will be happy and loyal. That is a good business.

[jimnyc]

So, a bunch of McDonald's workers walked out on the job and are demanding an increase in pay to $15/hour and the right to unionize.

Let them walk. Advertise new job openings at 10 cents more an hour than these idiots and the lines will be out the door tomorrow. You get what the employer offers, or you apply elsewhere. No employee should be allowed to work somewhere, and then down the line DEMAND what more they should receive. It matters not how much money the company makes, it's THEIR business.

[pete311]

Let them walk. Advertise new job openings at 10 cents more an hour than these idiots and the lines will be out the door tomorrow. You get what the employer offers, or you apply elsewhere. No employee should be allowed to work somewhere, and then down the line DEMAND what more they should receive. It matters not how much money the company makes, it's THEIR business.

People ask for a raise all the time. I've threaten to leave a job if I didn't get a raise and guess what, I got the raise.

[jimnyc]

What difference does that make?

Some of you bitch and moan about gov assistance, aka food stamps and then bitch about workers wanting fair pay which would allow them to get off gov assistance. Either mcdonalds pays their workers living wage or you got a shit ton of ppl getting food stamps. which is it?

What if small time landscapers? And paper route delivery? And some data entry? And every other job that pays small wages but barely enough to "live" on? Should they all HAVE TO pay higher wages, just so that others don't hold their hands out for freebies? How about maybe these people get better jobs, or a 2nd to supplement the extra money they do need?

McDonalds has almost always been a job for kids out of school and those wishing for a P/T job to add to their income. I never knew anyone, outside of mgmt, who went to McDonald's for a career. It's just the way they run their business. Either work there knowing that, or don't.

It's similar to most UPS warehouse jobs. They won't give the majority of workers enough hours to be FT, and they keep costs and benefits down. They do pay a much higher hourly rate, but not enough to where people can live off of the money they get from those 16-20hrs. Should UPS be forced to pay more, or extend their hours to FT hours? Nope.

[jimnyc]

People ask for a raise all the time. I've threaten to leave a job if I didn't get a raise and guess what, I got the raise.

Yes, they ASK. And I've seen MORE people get turned down, and then go back to work, or seek another job. No employee gets to DEMAND more money unless they have a written contract stipulating as much.

[Larrymc]

you are opening a major can of worms on the current state of american poverty. yes there are plenty of examples where people pull themselves out of poverty, but in vast majority of cases poverty breeds poverty and it becomes generational. this is the problem with destroying the middle class. i would bet most career burger flippers are from generational poverty where they had no parental or environmental support system. what do you do with these people?all you can do other than what the liberals do which raise and feed them for life, instead offer resources that with some effort can help them up, and nothing else, you would be surprised how many would stand on there on to feet, and be proud to do so, but with the system we have why should they, its not easy for those who have some kind of incentive, but its imposable for those without

[Larrymc]

meh, I mowed lawns for 5 years in high school and I was an idiot.

Why is someone who asks for a raise spoiled? Happens all the time in jobs. These people aren't exactly asking a lot. $15/h is still rubbish. btw, how is someone working at burger kind supposed to get educated? I don't think they'll have enough for a decent college. Pay these people a fair price and they will be happy and loyal. That is a good business.the real question is what's a fair price for a burger, when a burger cost as much as a steak im eating steak,

[Thunderknuckles]

btw, how is someone working at burger kind supposed to get educated? I don't think they'll have enough for a decent college.
Who said anything about affording college? Even the unemployment office offers training in various trade skills. There are countless avenues one can pursue to acquire valuable skills.
Stop making excuses for these people. You seem to view these folks through the lens of a medieval caste system as if this is their predetermined lot in life.

[pete311]

What if small time landscapers? And paper route delivery? And some data entry? And every other job that pays small wages but barely enough to "live" on? Should they all HAVE TO pay higher wages, just so that others don't hold their hands out for freebies? How about maybe these people get better jobs, or a 2nd to supplement the extra money they do need?

Look, personally I couldn't care less what happens. This isn't an ideological debate for me. All I see is that a group of people think they deserve more for what they do. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Either McD's accepts, declines or negotiates. I don't care who is wrong or right. If a landscaper or a paper boy thinks they deserve more for what they do, then all the power to them. Go get that money. Now, with saying that, these people should fully accept the risk they may be fired. I'm not saying anyone has to do anything, but I see no problem with someone asking for what they think they deserve if they understand the possible consequence.


Yes, they ASK. And I've seen MORE people get turned down, and then go back to work, or seek another job. No employee gets to DEMAND more money unless they have a written contract stipulating as much.

And McD's has the right to turn them down, but I'm guessing they will negotiate for something in the middle. They don't need any bad PR.

[aboutime]

meh, I mowed lawns for 5 years in high school and I was an idiot.

Why is someone who asks for a raise spoiled? Happens all the time in jobs. These people aren't exactly asking a lot. $15/h is still rubbish. btw, how is someone working at burger kind supposed to get educated? I don't think they'll have enough for a decent college. Pay these people a fair price and they will be happy and loyal. That is a good business.


Pete. If you owned a business and had employee's who needed jobs to live. Who would decide what that FAIR WAGE IS?

What if they all refused to apply for employment if you couldn't afford to pay them what THEY DEMAND?

Who would decide whether 15, 20, or even 100 dollars an hour would be a FAIR WAGE?

And how would you stay in business if the product, or service your company provided cost less than what the employee's demanded as pay?

If anyone wants to better themselves...HONESTLY. They find ways to get the education, and the wherewithall to make themselves better without GOVT. supporting them.

Or. They can do as you suggest and NEVER become a real success, or get the education needed to get out of dependency on govt.

[aboutime]

Look, personally I couldn't care less what happens. This isn't an ideological debate for me. All I see is that a group of people think they deserve more for what they do. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Either McD's accepts, declines or negotiates. I don't care who is wrong or right. If a landscaper or a paper boy thinks they deserve more for what they do, then all the power to them. Go get that money. Now, with saying that, these people should fully accept the risk they may be fired. I'm not saying anyone has to do anything, but I see no problem with someone asking for what they think they deserve if they understand the possible consequence.



And McD's has the right to turn them down, but I'm guessing they will negotiate for something in the middle. They don't need any bad PR.


Pete. The only BAD PR. MacDonalds might face is asking their customers to pay 15 dollars for a burger, and fries to support paying their Inexperienced help.

[Thunderknuckles]

Hell, I'd fire the lof of them for walking out on the job and head over to the local high school with job offers. Teenagers have the highest unemployment of any demographic and they also happen to be the biggest freeloaders :p I'd be doing a great service to the community.

[Larrymc]

Pete. If you owned a business and had employee's who needed jobs to live. Who would decide what that FAIR WAGE IS?

What if they all refused to apply for employment if you couldn't afford to pay them what THEY DEMAND?

Who would decide whether 15, 20, or even 100 dollars an hour would be a FAIR WAGE?

And how would you stay in business if the product, or service your company provided cost less than what the employee's demanded as pay?

If anyone wants to better themselves...HONESTLY. They find ways to get the education, and the wherewithall to make themselves better without GOVT. supporting them.

Or. They can do as you suggest and NEVER become a real success, or get the education needed to get out of dependency on govt.the point is when your working at a minimum wage job, unless you have enough education your not going any where, its common sense, the only reason there bold enough to demand more is people like you, who don't expect any thing more from them, why don't you open a burger joint and pay $25 an hour you'll have plenty of employees, although with the prices you would have to charge you would be short on customers

[aboutime]

the point is when your working at a minimum wage job, unless you have enough education your not going any where, its common sense, the only reason there bold enough to demand more is people like you, who don't expect any thing more from them, why don't you open a burger joint and pay $25 an hour you'll have plenty of employees, although with the prices you would have to charge you would be short on customers


Larrymc. Read my other post.

[pete311]

Pete. If you owned a business and had employee's who needed jobs to live. Who would decide what that FAIR WAGE IS?


The Living Wage (A wage that is high enough to maintain a normal standard of living) is a statistical calculation based on the area you live. It's not a made up phrase. MIT has a nice tool to check what the Living Wage is in your area
http://livingwage.mit.edu/



What if they all refused to apply for employment if you couldn't afford to pay them what THEY DEMAND?

Businesses always have this possibility.



If anyone wants to better themselves...HONESTLY. They find ways to get the education, and the wherewithall to make themselves better without GOVT. supporting them.


Absolutely, but the reality is these career burger flippers can't afford the formal education needed to better themselves.


the point is when your working at a minimum wage job, unless you have enough education your not going any where, its common sense, the only reason there bold enough to demand more is people like you, who don't expect any thing more from them, why don't you open a burger joint and pay $25 an hour you'll have plenty of employees, although with the prices you would have to charge you would be short on customers

As I've mentioned before, Trader Joe's and CostCo give all their employees at least a living wage and benefits. Both companies are very successful. I have a friend who picked up a part time job at Trader Joe's and she's a very happy and productive employee.

[Larrymc]

Larrymc. Read my other post. ok messed that one, your right, anyone has the right to ask, its the expecting that bothers me,

[jimnyc]

As I've mentioned before, Trader Joe's and CostCo give all their employees at least a living wage and benefits. Both companies are very successful. I have a friend who picked up a part time job at Trader Joe's and she's a very happy and productive employee.

I have a friend who works at Costco. When he worked there for a few years in NJ, no way in hell was he going to "live" off what he earned. He was $12 an hour @ 30hrs per week. Certainly not bad money, but barely enough for an apartment where he lived let alone all other living expenses. With his wife working as well, they were able to survive. He transferred to a store in SC where the cost of living is much, much cheaper. He eventually made warehouse manager and now makes $18 an hour. He said the benefits are decent. I would call this a fair job for an awful lot of work they are expected to do, a LOT MORE than what your typical McDonald's employee does.

I live about 200yrds or so from our local Trader Joe's. Excellent little store that we buy tons of stuff from. They pay less than the $15 an hour that these employees are demanding. They do pay more for the warehouse workers and managers, but the typical person you see at the register and on the floors make less than $15 an hour. That's why it's young'uns working there too, as where I live you "might" get a run down studio filled with roaches for that monthly salary.

[Larrymc]

Hell, I'd fire the lof of them for walking out on the job and head over to the local high school with job offers. Teenagers have the highest unemployment of any demographic and they also happen to be the biggest freeloaders :p I'd be doing a great service to the community.the reason they have the highest unemployment is, they fell there worth the same as those who have been in the work force for years, the concept of working your self up is foreign to them,

[pete311]

I have a friend who works at Costco. When he worked there for a few years in NJ, no way in hell was he going to "live" off what he earned. He was $12 an hour @ 30hrs per week. He eventually made warehouse manager and now makes $18 an hour. He said the benefits are decent. I would call this a fair job for an awful lot of work they are expected to do, a LOT MORE than what your typical McDonald's employee does.

I agree it's still very difficult to have a comfortable life at that wage. Warehouse manager would definitely be more skilled than fast food.



I live about 200yrds or so from our local Trader Joe's. Excellent little store that we buy tons of stuff from. They pay less than the $15 an hour that these employees are demanding. They do pay more for the warehouse workers and managers, but the typical person you see at the register and on the floors make less than $15 an hour. That's why it's young'uns working there too, as where I live you "might" get a run down studio filled with roaches for that monthly salary.
The Living Wage is different for each city. Check the MIT link I posted above. NYC wants $15/h, where say Tulsa might only demand $10-$12/h.

[aboutime]

The Living Wage (A wage that is high enough to maintain a normal standard of living) is a statistical calculation based on the area you live. It's not a made up phrase. MIT has a nice tool to check what the Living Wage is in your area
http://livingwage.mit.edu/



Businesses always have this possibility.



Absolutely, but the reality is these career burger flippers can't afford the formal education needed to better themselves.



As I've mentioned before, Trader Joe's and CostCo give all their employees at least a living wage and benefits. Both companies are very successful. I have a friend who picked up a part time job at Trader Joe's and she's a very happy and productive employee.


Pete. I fully understand where you are going with this. But. The question still remains. WHO DECIDES what that Living Wage should be?
You can go across this country, and find thousands of different Economic conditions, based on geography, and closeness to supply, and demand terminals, like farms, or manufacturing.

Would someone in Iowa be willing to pay what someone in New York City pays for a Burger and Fries? Or the Real Estate taxes?

[pete311]

Pete. I fully understand where you are going with this. But. The question still remains. WHO DECIDES what that Living Wage should be?
You can go across this country, and find thousands of different Economic conditions, based on geography, and closeness to supply, and demand terminals, like farms, or manufacturing.

Would someone in Iowa be willing to pay what someone in New York City pays for a Burger and Fries? Or the Real Estate taxes?

I'm not sure who created the equation for the Living Wage, but the MIT link I provided does a great job of illustrating it. Not sure how to answer your last questions.

[jimnyc]

I agree it's still very difficult to have a comfortable life at that wage. Warehouse manager would definitely be more skilled than fast food.


The Living Wage is different for each city. Check the link I posted above. NYC wants $15/h, where Tulsa might only demand $12/h.

I agree it'll be different in different areas. I know my buddy at Costco for example, took a small pay cut when he moved South, but the change in taxes and cost of living more than made up for it. All I'm saying, is that it's NOT the responsibility of an employer to make sure that their employees can "live off" of their pay. Their responsibility is to make money. Their only responsibility to the employee is what the law affords for. Of course the majority do more, as you get better employees with more money and benefits offered, but in no way should this be mandatory. If that were the case, then the minimum wage laws would be totally different and much higher. A company like McDonald's is not going to give the shareholders and CEO's cuts all around just so that they can pay all their employees the best of wages. They've made it as far as they have with their working model and I don't see that changing. It's been a company that HS and graduates have chosen for many generations, and all of them going in knew it was a part time job or a job to supplement their income. If someone needs more than that, then they're at the wrong place. But they have no RIGHT to walk out and make demands.

[Larrymc]

I agree it's still very difficult to have a comfortable life at that wage. Warehouse manager would definitely be more skilled than fast food.


The Living Wage is different for each city. Check the MIT link I posted above. NYC wants $15/h, where say Tulsa might only demand $10-$12/h.

you can blame Unions for the great divide, in skilled labor jobs, minimum wage jobs is just that, no one should expect to make a living from one,

[Thunderknuckles]

the reason they have the highest unemployment is, they fell there worth the same as those who have been in the work force for years, the concept of working your self up is foreign to them,
It wasn't like that 20 years ago. Teenagers did all the entry level jobs that many of today's adults make careers out of. A major point of these entry level jobs was to give young adults basic workforce skills before moving on to higher paying jobs, hence the high employee turnaround.

[pete311]

All I'm saying, is that it's NOT the responsibility of an employer to make sure that their employees can "live off" of their pay. Their responsibility is to make money. Their only responsibility to the employee is what the law affords for. Of course the majority do more, as you get better employees with more money and benefits offered, but in no way should this be mandatory.

I agree, but I think an interesting topic for debate would be to question whether "cut-throat" business is good business, now or in the future as society changes. Certainly you can't question it's success in the past, but there could be a day not far off where business is "pressured" by a market that favors better working conditions and atmosphere. Similarly to the "green/organic" movement businesses have jumped on to. It will be interesting because McD is so damn big, it becomes inflexible. Trader Joe's and Costco work because they began with better working conditions and scaled slowly. There is no question I'd rather work at either of those compared to McD.

[pete311]

you can blame Unions for the great divide, in skilled labor jobs, minimum wage jobs is just that, no one should expect to make a living from one,

That is your opinion. The workers think differently. We'll see what happens.

[Larrymc]

It wasn't like that 20 years ago. Teenagers did all the entry level jobs that many of today's adults make careers out of. A major point of these entry level jobs was to give young adults basic workforce skills before moving on to higher paying jobs, hence the high employee turnaround.i know that's right, that's the way it always was, but now we can't make it on one income anymore, the time were thinking of was when for the most part mothers stayed home, most house holds had one job or at less one main job now it takes all both can make

[SassyLady]

People ask for a raise all the time. I've threaten to leave a job if I didn't get a raise and guess what, I got the raise.

Did you stand outside their door with all the other employees and disrupt the place of business? Perhaps you were worth the raise.

Most McDonalds are a franchise and are privately owned. Not all of them make the same profit margins. Why should there be an edict that all Macs pay their entry level employees $15/hr.

If you want people to make a living wage, perhaps you should go on strike against the government and quit paying taxes.

[Gaffer]

It's all very simple. Unions want to get into Mcd's it means more money and power for them. And they will eventually force Mcd's out of business with their demands like they have done with so many industries and businesses. Just look at who's behind it and follow the money.

[logroller]

Chicken nuggets. 'Nuf said!

[Larrymc]

Did you stand outside their door with all the other employees and disrupt the place of business? Perhaps you were worth the raise.

Most McDonalds are a franchise and are privately owned. Not all of them make the same profit margins. Why should there be an edict that all Macs pay their entry level employees $15/hr.

If you want people to make a living wage, perhaps you should go on strike against the government and quit paying taxes.hey im in south east Texas and $15 an hour is for from the bottom rung here, so it depends on were you are when talking about fair pay

[Larrymc]

Chicken nuggets. 'Nuf said! Fo sure

[Missileman]

That is your opinion. The workers think differently. We'll see what happens.

If you double the wages of unskilled labor, then you'll need to double the wages of skilled labor also...that would only make sense. So now you've nearly doubled every company's operating costs personnel wise. Prices will skyrocket and the end result will be that $15 only being worth $7.50 anyways...nothing is gained.

[Kathianne]

Why would they leave? No different than you going to your boss and saying, I think I'm worth this, pay it, or I leave. Actually it is. In most jobs if you 'walk off' you are done.




This really is the debate question. How much are they worth. I don't know exactly and I be delighted if you could figure it out. $8 seems low. Yes they are flipping burgers and punching buttons, but I would make $20/hr mowing lawns. The skill set isn't much more complicated, if anything working a cash machine is more difficult than pushing a lawn mower. As i said before, both Trader Joe's and CostCo give their stockers and checkout ppl benefits and a living wage. They are successful companies.

A kid with dad's lawnmower is getting paid for the job, not by the hour. Nearly always in cash, which gives them more, though they likely don't know that yet.

An adult with a landscaping business, is not paying his workers $20 an hour. He's likely making that, perhaps a bit more. He's also unlikely to be paying for their healthcare or come within the guidelines of doing so, yet.

Costco and Trader Joe's pay around $12-13 an hour. There are many physical requirements one must meet to work at Costco. Trader Joe's has approximately 10-12 people per shirt, they run efficiently and their prices are not low. I like both stores, but it's not the same as working at McD's, which is why you won't find high school students in either of those businesses.



Sounds like a vote for higher taxes. We don't want to get too much money. Will make all prices go up. Good thing the gov is there to save us from collecting too much money.

Or a good argument for pricing salaries more in line with worth and skills. There are reasons that jobs are flooding overseas.

[logroller]

Actually it is. In most jobs if you 'walk off' you are done.
A kid with dad's lawnmower is getting paid for the job, not by the hour. Nearly always in cash, which gives them more, though they likely don't know that yet.

An adult with a landscaping business, is not paying his workers $20 an hour. He's likely making that, perhaps a bit more. He's also unlikely to be paying for their healthcare or come within the guidelines of doing so, yet.

Costco and Trader Joe's pay around $12-13 an hour. There are many physical requirements one must meet to work at Costco. Trader Joe's has approximately 10-12 people per shirt, they run efficiently and their prices are not low. I like both stores, but it's not the same as working at McD's, which is why you won't find high school students in either of those businesses.

Or a good argument for pricing salaries more in line with worth and skills. There are reasons that jobs are flooding overseas.
i know Costco is union; by request of management. :dunno:
I can speak first hand to landscaping though, and often my employees at $10/hr made more than I did. Of course, I had my car, insurance, fuel, etc paid for, but its not lucrative work. as far as the previously mentioned pushing of lawnmowers, it can be done poorly, and frequently is. It's just a question of how permanent the job the is-- screw up a lawn job, a month later you'd never know, but id have to schmooze that customer to keep the account. i have to say that any craft can be masterfully done; whether pushing a lawnmower or digging a ditch, there is a skill involved (possibly). I believe that even a McDonald's employee can achieve mastery, but I don't believe McDonald's is where that level of skill belongs. It's an entry level job. I think anybody worth their salt could find a job elsewhere and open the position at McD's for another upstart. Seriously, if you find yourself working entry level food service past the drinking age you're either occupationally challenged or just plain lazy. Neither deserves a living wage; you should be happy someone's willing to give you work.

[fj1200]

I'm not sure who created the equation for the Living Wage, but the MIT link I provided does a great job of illustrating it. Not sure how to answer your last questions.

Why do you want to consign those who aren't worth a "living wage" to unemployment?

[pete311]

Did you stand outside their door with all the other employees and disrupt the place of business? Perhaps you were worth the raise.

Most McDonalds are a franchise and are privately owned. Not all of them make the same profit margins. Why should there be an edict that all Macs pay their entry level employees $15/hr.

If you want people to make a living wage, perhaps you should go on strike against the government and quit paying taxes.

The Living Wage is different everywhere. NYC Is $15/h. Why do you accept the min wage so easily? Suddenly the min wage is some holy number that we should respect. <sarcasm> Why should McD pay $8/h? Clearly these people are worth $3/h. </sarcasm>

btw, I'd be perfectly fine with people protesting for lower taxes. What is wrong about that?

[Larrymc]

If you double the wages of unskilled labor, then you'll need to double the wages of skilled labor also...that would only make sense. So now you've nearly doubled every company's operating costs personnel wise. Prices will skyrocket and the end result will be that $15 only being worth $7.50 anyways...nothing is gained.Seems like common sense huh,

its like raising the minimum wage it helps no one

[tailfins]

The Living Wage is different everywhere. NYC Is $15/h. Why do you accept the min wage so easily? Suddenly the min wage is some holy number that we should respect. <sarcasm> Why should McD pay $8/h? Clearly these people are worth $3/h. </sarcasm>

btw, I'd be perfectly fine with people protesting for lower taxes. What is wrong about that?

That's called the TEA Party.

[Trigg]

What difference does that make?

Some of you bitch and moan about gov assistance, aka food stamps and then bitch about workers wanting fair pay which would allow them to get off gov assistance. Either mcdonalds pays their workers living wage or you got a shit ton of ppl getting food stamps. which is it?

fast food joints were never intended to be Careers for the VAST percentage of their workers. The jobs were intended for teenagers and college kids. It was never ment to be a living wage for adults supporting families.

NOW if you did want to make it your career McDonalds does provide management training and career advacement.

[pete311]

fast food joints were never intended to be Careers for the VAST percentage of their workers. The jobs were intended for teenagers and college kids. It was never ment to be a living wage for adults supporting families.

That's pure opinion. There was no official intention one way or the other. The setup simply favored young temp workers.

[aboutime]

That's pure opinion. There was no official intention one way or the other. The setup simply favored young temp workers.

pete. Let's hear your opinion then. Would you tell your children (if you have any), to look forward to a lifelong career at MacDonalds? Not as the Owner/Manager/Franchisee but just your normal, mop the floor, clean the rest-rooms, unload the trucks, milkshake maker kind of Career oriented life's Dream?

Only a YES, or NO answer will do.

In fact. Put yourself in place of your children, or future children. Tell us how much of a career to success that would be for you?

[pete311]

No but that isn't the point. The proposed living wage full time is not that far from poverty level.

[Kathianne]

That which is unsustainable will not be sustained. I posted this on another thread, but seems applicable here:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-27/when-work-punished-tragedy-americas-welfare-state

http://cdn.pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/welfarecliff-600x449.jpg (http://cdn.pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/welfarecliff.jpg)

[Larrymc]

pete. Let's hear your opinion then. Would you tell your children (if you have any), to look forward to a lifelong career at MacDonalds? Not as the Owner/Manager/Franchisee but just your normal, mop the floor, clean the rest-rooms, unload the trucks, milkshake maker kind of Career oriented life's Dream?

Only a YES, or NO answer will do.

In fact. Put yourself in place of your children, or future children. Tell us how much of a career to success that would be for you?only a complete idiot would think they could make a live in a place like that, now unfortunately in this economy some are having to try to make do, and they need an alternative, a way to move on, now that's something to talk about, but the truth is most of those people, haven't made an effort to move up nor are they planing to, think that if that's all they want to do then it should pay enough, sorry it don't work that way in the real world, and people like you encourage them to do so, instead of trying to better them selves, you said your self the only alternative is food stamps, how about give them opportunity and if they wont take it, then only give them the absolute necessity's

[fj1200]

No but that isn't the point. The proposed living wage full time is not that far from poverty level.


Why do you want to consign those who aren't worth a "living wage" to unemployment?

:)

[taft2012]

Sure the dollar menu might go away, but gimmie a break. These companies are rolling in the dough. Do you have any actual statistical backing for your hyperboles or is it just another hot air rant? Whether or not you agree with giving them a pay raise, people have the right to organize and strike/protest. It's done all the time in big business and sports. Pay me more money or I leave. Sometimes they are let go. Fine. That is how the system works. Don't hate the system. Why would you just leave your job if there was a chance to get more money?

The gov't plan was originally to encourage employers to provide health care. This was done via incentive, i.e., tax deductions.

Since someone else was always paying for health care, patients were indifferent to rising costs and now we have multi-millionaire doctors.

Now health care costs are out of range of the average person and employers no longer are given incentives, but rather mandates.

Government tinkering created this problem.

[Nukeman]

The gov't plan was originally to encourage employers to provide health care. This was done via incentive, i.e., tax deductions.

Since someone else was always paying for health care, patients were indifferent to rising costs and now we have multi-millionaire doctors.

Now health care costs are out of range of the average person and employers no longer are given incentives, but rather mandates.

Government tinkering created this problem.
You are quite right on this but not how you think I believe.. "Multi-millionaire doctors" I find this funny since the VAST majority of doctors make between 130-180k a year. Most with there level of education and liability do "OK"!!

the rising cost of health care is a direct result of govt involvement with the start of HMO's and PPO's mandated by the fed. This was coupled with the organization known as CMS that regularly interferes with how hospitals and clinics are paid.

Did you ever wonder why a hospital charges 10,000 dollars for something that should only be 2,000. Well its because the CMS (center for medicaid/Medicare services) only pays 0.22 cents on the dollar for medicare and 0.04 cents on the dollar for medicaid. If they would just set a price, a real price not some jumbled up, convoluted, back pay mess and make a pay structure based on testing and performance and NOT on how much you charge you would see a drastic reduction in cost...

The big issue is that the "list" price of studies is NEVER what someone pays its like the list price of a car. You negotiate that down and yes even private citizens who are paying by cash can do this very easily. In fact if you are willing to pay in full up front with cash you can expect a 50-70% reduction in cost. For every dollar received upfront it is equal to 200 dollars after the fact... It is all a game that has been manipulated by the Federal govt for the sole purpose of attempting to get a single payer system.

Its funny how you and others like to vilify the doctors for making some money. YOU do realize that they do NOT start making money until 12-17 years after graduating high school don't you. YOU think it unfair that a doctor can charge higher prices for his enormous liability he has to carry for STUPID people. They start their careers later in life with high liability and you are jealous of that?? I rarely see folks like you bashing the federal employees that clean up with insider trading and are millionaires by the time they are 30, you know when most doctors are just STARTING their careers with 200,000 in debt.. Pathetic!!!!!

[taft2012]

"Multi-millionaire doctors" I find this funny since the VAST majority of doctors make between 130-180k a year. Most with there level of education and liability do "OK"!!



Your grapeshots at civil servants and Wall Street types is a bit confusing, but I never said the "VAST majority" of doctors are multi-millionaires. But they are out there....

So, for valid comparison purposes in terms of education, how about we compare physicians with dentists?

For the most part, dental work isn't covered by health care plans. I don't have any numbers handy, but how would you reckon the number of multi-millionaire physicians stacks up against the number of multi-millionaire dentists?

[Trigg]

Your grapeshots at civil servants and Wall Street types is a bit confusing, but I never said the "VAST majority" of doctors are multi-millionaires. But they are out there....

So, for valid comparison purposes in terms of education, how about we compare physicians with dentists?

For the most part, dental work isn't covered by health care plans. I don't have any numbers handy, but how would you reckon the number of multi-millionaire physicians stacks up against the number of multi-millionaire dentists?

I'd say there are just as many general practitioners, pediatricians and internal medicine doctors as there are family dentists. NONE of whom are multi-millionairs.

Now if we're going to compare heart surgeons, orthopedic surgeons and other highly specialized physicians to oral surgeons and maxillofacial surgeons. I'd say there may be fewer of the dental surgeons.

Also, I don't know where you work, but Dental insurance programs have been included in every job I've ever had.

[taft2012]

Also, I don't know where you work, but Dental insurance programs have been included in every job I've ever had.

Odd, I've never had it. At two jobs I had some coverage through a union, but at the non-union job I had.... bupkis.

[Kathianne]

Odd, I've never had it. At two jobs I had some coverage through a union, but at the non-union job I had.... bupkis.

I've only held non-union positions since 1981. All had dental insurance. Truth of the matter, like vision coverage, it's very limited. After deductible and co-pay, it's like 70% coverage, with a yearly limit.

[Trigg]

Odd, I've never had it. At two jobs I had some coverage through a union, but at the non-union job I had.... bupkis.


I've had jobs in 4 different states and never worked at a union shop. Neither has hubby or my parents or in-laws. They've always had dental coverage.

[fj1200]

I've only held non-union positions since 1981. All had dental insurance. Truth of the matter, like vision coverage, it's very limited. After deductible and co-pay, it's like 70% coverage, with a yearly limit.

Dental and vision (optometrists anyway), probably the two least important types of health insurance IMO. They are probably easily self-financed for those with half an ounce of cash-planning abilities.

[Kathianne]

Dental and vision (optometrists anyway), probably the two least important types of health insurance IMO. They are probably easily self-financed for those with half an ounce of cash-planning abilities.

I agree. The very idea that folks had 'insurance' raised the costs of both with administrators to handle the paper. Never should have been there.

Which brings back my point, now moot, that 'health insurance' outside of catastrophic has been the prime factor in the rise of health care cost. As I said, now moot.

[MtnBiker]

Fast Food workers demand higher wages......


hmmmm, anybody purchase a Twinkie lately?

[MtnBiker]

I agree, but I think an interesting topic for debate would be to question whether "cut-throat" business is good business, now or in the future as society changes. Certainly you can't question it's success in the past, but there could be a day not far off where business is "pressured" by a market that favors better working conditions and atmosphere.


Ummm, so how are the working conditions and atmosphere in China where a good majority of product that supplies Costco are produced?

[DragonStryk72]

Trader Joe's and Costco give living wages and benefits. Looks like those companies are doing pretty well.

They also employ fewer people, and require more training in the field. More than a quarter million of the new jobs in the last year or two have been in fast food. Why is that relevant? Because if you can $15/hour flipping burgers, that becomes the new standard pay for entry level jobs. Yeah, that's right, that means that anything that requires any degree of training or experience has to bump their wages up to compete.

This means that companies must then raise their prices and cut labor hours, either through less time or less people, in order to stay afloat. This all gets dumped back who? That's right, the poor, who will now be, again, in the same exact place they were before.

Wages are not the problem, and never have been. The problem is the rising cost of living, and when that get's addressed properly, then $7.25 becomes a living wage, and everyone wins, because prices go down, and people are able to get by on much less money.

[DragonStryk72]

You know what? I'm gonna further expound on this. Most McD's employees are temporary at best, with a number getting fired for poor performance, not being able to keep up, or no-call/no-showing. Those that don't do that are just buying time.

Most people do not understand how to articulate the problem, and this is a fault of education. We don't teach finance in high school, meaning that people get a horribly skewed version of how the economy works. They don't understand how the base wage effects the overall economy, and thus, they see it from the "If we make more, it'll be better" school of thought, but that's not the actual issue.

Like I said above, it is the cost of living that needs to be changed, and that can never be brought down by raising the base wage. When you raise the base wage of employees, you have to raise the cost of goods and service to take that into account, or you're not going to be in business. Sure, making more feels good, but at that rate, it's actually counter productive to the goal.

This, in my belief, is due to ignorance, and lack of ability to articulate their concerns. For instance, let's say you're working full-time at $7.25/hour. This means you're pulling down basically $290 a week before taxes/benefits. Now, if the cost of living is up around the $1,000/month mark, then yes, you are likely in the shit. However, if instead, the cost of living is closer to $600/month, then you have a couple hundred of wiggle room.

Now, why is NY sucking so bad? Well, some of it is simply the current economy, but that's really only a minimal bit of the problem. NY at this point does a really horrible job of balancing the budget, and has a highly regulated economy that actively works against bringing down the cost of living, or even just keeping it at the same level. More targeted, less-invasive regulations would greatly improve this situation. A perfect example of this is the legislation a year ago that was trying to make so that nobody could sell any fountain-style drink greater than 20 oz.. Why? Because they're trying to force people to be healthy, which this actually does nothing to make a reality. All it does is trim profits from businesses, while those of us who love our Dr. P just buy the 1.5-2 Liter bottles, and move on with our lives.

But we also have to talk about entitlement programs, which are horribly abused in NY. The way we do welfare and food stamps needs to change in a fundamental way, or it's just going to get worse all around. This isn't a matter of just defunding or adding funding to the programs, it's a matter of getting them to a point where the programs do what they are supposed to do.

[avatar4321]

What difference does that make?

Some of you bitch and moan about gov assistance, aka food stamps and then bitch about workers wanting fair pay which would allow them to get off gov assistance. Either mcdonalds pays their workers living wage or you got a shit ton of ppl getting food stamps. which is it?

How is it a fair pay to give people lots of money to do something that creates little value?

[gabosaurus]

You know what? I'm gonna further expound on this. Most McD's employees are temporary at best, with a number getting fired for poor performance, not being able to keep up, or no-call/no-showing. Those that don't do that are just buying time.

Most people do not understand how to articulate the problem, and this is a fault of education. We don't teach finance in high school, meaning that people get a horribly skewed version of how the economy works. They don't understand how the base wage effects the overall economy, and thus, they see it from the "If we make more, it'll be better" school of thought, but that's not the actual issue.


Dragonstryk is quite correct on this one. Too many kids grow up with an inflated sense of entitlement. Their parents tell they are wonderful and give them whatever they want. Thus, they grow up believing that they can get what they want with very little effort required.
So what happens when they get an entry level job that pays minimum wage? A very rude awakening.
They are doing what my dad always called "grunt work" -- serving burgers, waiting tables and putting up with supervisors who treat them like worms. And they don't like it.

They do teach economics and finance in high school. Trouble is, they are not required courses. I think they should be.

[DragonStryk72]

Dragonstryk is quite correct on this one. Too many kids grow up with an inflated sense of entitlement. Their parents tell they are wonderful and give them whatever they want. Thus, they grow up believing that they can get what they want with very little effort required.
So what happens when they get an entry level job that pays minimum wage? A very rude awakening.
They are doing what my dad always called "grunt work" -- serving burgers, waiting tables and putting up with supervisors who treat them like worms. And they don't like it.

They do teach economics and finance in high school. Trouble is, they are not required courses. I think they should be.

Right, but the thing is, not all high schools have it, and like you said, it's not mandatory in those schools. French? Yes. Basic knowledge of the economy you'll be dumped into? No. And even in the schools where it is offered, it's often not put forward to the students at all. So basically, only the geeks who read the course offerings themselves, like me, took it in high school. It's also why I know basic accounting.

[Nukeman]

Right, but the thing is, not all high schools have it, and like you said, it's not mandatory in those schools. French? Yes. Basic knowledge of the economy you'll be dumped into? No. And even in the schools where it is offered, it's often not put forward to the students at all. So basically, only the geeks who read the course offerings themselves, like me, took it in high school. It's also why I know basic accounting.
When I was in HS we were required to take a general Business course.. None of my kids have had to do this.. Hell most kids can't even balance a check book anymore.. Pathetic IMHO!!!!

[tailfins]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by taft2012 http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=597000#post597000)

Odd, I've never had it. At two jobs I had some coverage through a union, but at the non-union job I had.... bupkis.



I've only held non-union positions since 1981. All had dental insurance. Truth of the matter, like vision coverage, it's very limited. After deductible and co-pay, it's like 70% coverage, with a yearly limit.




I've only held non-union positions since 1981. All had dental insurance. Truth of the matter, like vision coverage, it's very limited. After deductible and co-pay, it's like 70% coverage, with a yearly limit.

A liberal would tell you, "See, Obamacare is going to make your life significantly better."

[Marcus Aurelius]

It is ridiculous to think that if places like McDonald's suddenly have to double the average workers salary, that they won't pass that increased cost on to the customers. Not interested in pay 8.00 for a Big Mac.

[tailfins]

I've only held non-union positions since 1981. All had dental insurance. Truth of the matter, like vision coverage, it's very limited. After deductible and co-pay, it's like 70% coverage, with a yearly limit.


It is ridiculous to think that if places like McDonald's suddenly have to double the average workers salary, that they won't pass that increased cost on to the customers. Not interested in pay 8.00 for a Big Mac.

They already cost $5+ on the Massachusetts Turnpike service centers. McDonald's CAN'T pass all the cost on. However other undesirable effect can occur: Hiring less staff, have fewer locations. People will get their burgers at owner operated burger joints.

[Marcus Aurelius]

They already cost $5+ on the Massachusetts Turnpike service centers. McDonald's CAN'T pass all the cost on. However other undesirable effect can occur: Hiring less staff, have fewer locations. People will get their burgers at owner operated burger joints.

Of course they can. The question is 'will they?'. My guess is probably. That's what businesses do.

[tailfins]

Of course they can. The question is 'will they?'. My guess is probably. That's what businesses do.

If McDonald's charges $7 for a BigMac and a family run burger joint with few or no employees charges $3 for a quarter pound burger, which would most people buy?

[Marcus Aurelius]

If McDonald's charges $7 for a BigMac and a family run burger joint with few or no employees charges $3 for a quarter pound burger, which would most people buy?

Did I say they would not lose business? No.

I said they would pass on the cost to their customers, and they would. The idea that a business will not pass on increased costs to their customers is ludicrous.

[aboutime]

If McDonald's charges $7 for a BigMac and a family run burger joint with few or no employees charges $3 for a quarter pound burger, which would most people buy?


How long would the family run burger joint stay in business after getting more customers, needing a larger store, bigger parking lot, and more employee's to handle the growing number of customers while selling $3 dollar burgers?

And then. How long would those $3 dollar burgers be able to stay at $3 dollars while losing all profits in Rent, Maint., and employee's who work for More than the Profits earned by those $3 dollar burgers?????

Common sense like that is why McDonalds put the FAMILY RUN burger joints out of business in the first place.

Think about it.

[tailfins]

How long would the family run burger joint stay in business after getting more customers, needing a larger store, bigger parking lot, and more employee's to handle the growing number of customers while selling $3 dollar burgers?

And then. How long would those $3 dollar burgers be able to stay at $3 dollars while losing all profits in Rent, Maint., and employee's who work for More than the Profits earned by those $3 dollar burgers?????

Common sense like that is why McDonalds put the FAMILY RUN burger joints out of business in the first place.

Think about it.

As an example if charging $4 for an item results in selling 80 million units, generating revenue of $320 million. If a $5 price results in selling 60 million units, the revenue would be $300 million. Raising the prices results in less revenue. A well run business has already set a revenue maximizing price. Costs do not directly affect the demand-price curve. Other decisions have to be made such as closing locations. In the family run business example, expanding might not be a profitable decision. Not having employees has its benefits.

[Larrymc]

Odd, I've never had it. At two jobs I had some coverage through a union, but at the non-union job I had.... bupkis.i have never had Dental, but that's no endorsement of Unions, i think there usefulness has passed

[gabosaurus]

i have never had Dental, but that's no endorsement of Unions, i think there usefulness has passed

Would you rather have a return to the early 1900's, when workers were paid near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions? Where employers could pay as little as they wanted? Where sweat shops were the norm and those injured on the job were sent home and docked a day's pay?
Perhaps you could use a small history lesson.

[Thunderknuckles]

Would you rather have a return to the early 1900's, when workers were paid near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions? Where employers could pay as little as they wanted? Where sweat shops were the norm and those injured on the job were sent home and docked a day's pay?
Perhaps you could use a small history lesson.
I don't think anyone wants that. The problem here is that the pendulum has swung too far in favor of unions, public unions in particular. Some balance needs to be restored.

[jimnyc]

I don't think anyone wants that. The problem here is that the pendulum has swung too far in favor of unions, public unions in particular. Some balance needs to be restored.

And, employers can't pay as little as they want, at least not below minimum wage. If an employee wants higher wages, they should earn it and get a different job. If NO ONE will take a job at low wages, then it's the businesses problem, and they'll either fold or increase wages.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Would you rather have a return to the early 1900's, when workers were paid near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions? Where employers could pay as little as they wanted? Where sweat shops were the norm and those injured on the job were sent home and docked a day's pay?
Perhaps you could use a small history lesson.

the vast majority of jobs in this country are non-union jobs, and we do not have near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions. Sweat shops are not the norm and those injured on the job are not sent home and docked a day's pay.

[Marcus Aurelius]

And, employers can't pay as little as they want, at least not below minimum wage. If an employee wants higher wages, they should earn it and get a different job. If NO ONE will take a job at low wages, then it's the businesses problem, and they'll either fold or increase wages.


:clap:

[Larrymc]

Would you rather have a return to the early 1900's, when workers were paid near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions? Where employers could pay as little as they wanted? Where sweat shops were the norm and those injured on the job were sent home and docked a day's pay?
Perhaps you could use a small history lesson. there's no denying the Unions were badly needed, at one time. and they have given us some great labor laws, but there like a Liberal project its starts out with a Great and badly needed purpose, then turns into something ridicules, Unions only serve to smother Big Business, and Union scale which most of us don't make, but drives the cost of everything up, and fills the pockets of the Union bosses and Politicians, is not fair to anyone, look at what those arrogant fools did to NY, how about the auto industry, but they felt entitled to do so, and why not they were paying for a President

[tailfins]

Would you rather have a return to the early 1900's, when workers were paid near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions? Where employers could pay as little as they wanted? Where sweat shops were the norm and those injured on the job were sent home and docked a day's pay?
Perhaps you could use a small history lesson.

That's a straw man argument. When burdens are placed on business, the effect of those burdens need to be properly studied. If forcing higher wages make automation and workforce reduction cost effective, have you accomplished anything?

[gabosaurus]

And, employers can't pay as little as they want, at least not below minimum wage. If an employee wants higher wages, they should earn it and get a different job. If NO ONE will take a job at low wages, then it's the businesses problem, and they'll either fold or increase wages.

I totally agree with this. This is why entry level jobs have such a high turnover rate. Workers either can't cut it or they find a job with higher pay.
I have always seen unions as necessary for skilled labor positions. The idea of a union for temporary jobs is ludicrous.

[Robert A Whit]

By Abouttime
Would you kindly just answer my question instead of telling me MY PROBLEM...according to you?

NOW do you get it Abouttime why you offended me when you told me to go to a psychiatrist?

Funny now that it happened to you how does it feel? I am talking only of the problem accordting to you part.

[aboutime]

NOW do you get it Abouttime why you offended me when you told me to go to a psychiatrist?

Funny now that it happened to you how does it feel? I am talking only of the problem accordting to you part.


Robert. Do you feel better now that you've had the opportunity to come here and RUB it in my face?

You really do sound like a spoiled little kid at times. How's that feel?

[Larrymc]

I totally agree with this. This is why entry level jobs have such a high turnover rate. Workers either can't cut it or they find a job with higher pay.
I have always seen unions as necessary for skilled labor positions. The idea of a union for temporary jobs is ludicrous.i agree Unions for minimum wage jobs is just crazy, but then i think Unions in general have out lived there useful purpose,

[tailfins]

Robert. Do you feel better now that you've had the opportunity to come here and RUB it in my face?

You really do sound like a spoiled little kid at times. How's that feel?

Why do you think they call it a second childhood? I do, however question the ordinal of second. It could be third, fourth or more! :poke:

Bob, you do know it's all PLAY, don't you? Don't take any of this seriously. Sorry about time (for tipping him off), but it's possible that Bob doesn't see what is being done.

[Robert A Whit]

Would you rather have a return to the early 1900's, when workers were paid near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions? Where employers could pay as little as they wanted? Where sweat shops were the norm and those injured on the job were sent home and docked a day's pay?
Perhaps you could use a small history lesson.

Do you want to know what is wrong with your argument?

It is all in your head. You learned democrats talking points so that is your automatic reflex reply.

But the FACTS are different than you claim. Very few regular jobs are unionized. By my last report, 7 percent of the non Government jobs workers are in any union. They don't want to be in a union.

Where governments have unionized, take a good look at the financials of the Government paying those wages.

Benefits to former government workers are so high, no wonder cities go broke.

[aboutime]

i agree Unions for minimum wage jobs is just crazy, but then i think Unions in general have out lived there useful purpose,


Larrymc. Believe it or not. Unions actually push for the increases in Minimum wages. It gives them more bargaining power during negotiations over contracts. If the Minimum wage goes up. The can claim their members also need a raise as well.

[Robert A Whit]

I once put up a Weinersnitzel store up for sale. If you have a great location with high volumn, sure, you can make a lot of money. This store was struggling and I never sold it for the owner.

I heard a lot about the guy that owns all the McDonalds francises in my city. He was an important SUIT for McDonalds many years ago and retired from the company. He got my city as his reward and I think he has a half dozen McDonalds in this local area.

McDonalds charges you perhaps a half million dollars today to get a store. Clearly they make tons of money. I admit that I have not verified the half million figure but many years ago in the 70s I believe they cost about a quarter million dollars. At least in the SF Bay area.

Kids working there in this area get paid more than 8 dollars per hour. I have a niece who said she was paid over 12 per hour I believe.

I know that the guy in my area that has his stores sure lives very well. I hear he is a millionaire many times over.

I don't know why he could not aford to pay his kitchen help $20 per hour or more.

[tailfins]

I once put up a Weinersnitzel store up for sale. If you have a great location with high volumn, sure, you can make a lot of money. This store was struggling and I never sold it for the owner.

I heard a lot about the guy that owns all the McDonalds francises in my city. He was an important SUIT for McDonalds many years ago and retired from the company. He got my city as his reward and I think he has a half dozen McDonalds in this local area.

McDonalds charges you perhaps a half million dollars today to get a store. Clearly they make tons of money. I admit that I have not verified the half million figure but many years ago in the 70s I believe they cost about a quarter million dollars. At least in the SF Bay area.

Kids working there in this area get paid more than 8 dollars per hour. I have a niece who said she was paid over 12 per hour I believe.

I know that the guy in my area that has his stores sure lives very well. I hear he is a millionaire many times over.

I don't know why he could not aford to pay his kitchen help $20 per hour or more.


I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with you, but you do know you're making the leftist's argument here, right?

[red states rule]

Would you rather have a return to the early 1900's, when workers were paid near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions? Where employers could pay as little as they wanted? Where sweat shops were the norm and those injured on the job were sent home and docked a day's pay?
Perhaps you could use a small history lesson.

Gabby, I guess you "forgot" how unions drove three counties in CA into bankruptcy. Or how the voters in CA and WI said YES to cutting the benefits unions were getting thanks to the taxpayers. You run into issues when the union workers make MORE money then the people who are paying them (ie the taxpayers)

[DragonStryk72]

When I was in HS we were required to take a general Business course.. None of my kids have had to do this.. Hell most kids can't even balance a check book anymore.. Pathetic IMHO!!!!

Yeah, and that's just the basics. Understanding how credit works, and how the economy works is intrinsically important to getting by these days.

[DragonStryk72]

How long would the family run burger joint stay in business after getting more customers, needing a larger store, bigger parking lot, and more employee's to handle the growing number of customers while selling $3 dollar burgers?

And then. How long would those $3 dollar burgers be able to stay at $3 dollars while losing all profits in Rent, Maint., and employee's who work for More than the Profits earned by those $3 dollar burgers?????

Common sense like that is why McDonalds put the FAMILY RUN burger joints out of business in the first place.

Think about it.

Ah, but you're forgetting an important point: What happens to employee wages at Burger King, Wendy's and such? They cant keep their employees if they could make $8/hr more to do the same job at another location. So the only way to retain employees? Raise wages. Same in the $3 burger restaurant for the scenario. It's the domino effect, and that's how it works. The unions proposed by the workers would quickly expand to cover all fast food places, even the mom and pops

[DragonStryk72]

Would you rather have a return to the early 1900's, when workers were paid near starvation wages for six-day weeks in unsafe conditions? Where employers could pay as little as they wanted? Where sweat shops were the norm and those injured on the job were sent home and docked a day's pay?
Perhaps you could use a small history lesson.

Minimum wage laws

Minimum wage laws

Occupational Safety and Health Administration (Osha), as well as laws on the books to keep employers from doing that. As well, workers beyond a certain numbers of hours MUST be given access to medical insurance. We also have disability, both short and long-term, to help cover those who get injured on the job.

Perhaps you could use the lesson. Every single thing you mentioned is already covered without union involvement. This is what we're talking about. Yes, back then, unions were a necessity to provide a safe place to work, but those things are covered now. So what are unions doing now that we cannot do without?

[red states rule]

Gabby, I found this gem regarding the perks of being a union executive. So much for the union being for the benefit of its members
We tend to pay a lot of attention to what teachers’ unions spend on politics, but even that lofty amount pales in comparison to what they what they spend on themselves. Like teaching, union work is a labor-intensive enterprise. Unlike teaching, the structure of union benefits resembles an inverted pyramid, where a lot of people receive similar perks and only the lowest level employees receive standard workplace accommodations.
Wage amounts are usually public record, but are perilously difficult to pin down. What a union executive makes can be inflated in the record by sick leave accrual or severance payouts, or can be understated because of tax deferments or allowances in lieu of pay. Still, with that caveat in place, an examination of 2010-11 tax records reveals wages of the highest paid employees of the National Education Association and its state affiliates – defined here as the money reported in box 1 of a W-2 form – ranged from almost $540,000 down to less than $92,000.
Financial records also show that certain perks are common among NEA and state affiliate executives, while others are controversial even in the corporate world.
Housing allowances are prevalent. Union officers often will receive a cash payment to cover the costs of maintaining a home near union headquarters, usually located in the state capital. Some affiliates actually provide a home. Which officers receive a housing allowance and for how much varies from state to state, but it ranges from 20 percent of salary all the way down to $800 per month.
One would expect the union to cover the costs of executive travel, but some affiliates allow first-class travel and many also reimburse for the cost of companion travel – in one case up to $2,000 per year. Unions have been known to reimburse officers for home, pet and garden care while they are away on business, although it isn’t known whether these kinds of perks have survived recent budget shortfalls. Auto allowances and gas cards are also common.
A growing number of officers receive payment for annual health or social club dues and initiation fees, with one affiliate offering up to $1,000 a year in “wellness-related expenses.” A handful of affiliates also provide the president with a discretionary spending account or clothing allowances.
Accounting for these varied forms of compensation can get complicated, so some unions provide free tax preparation. At least one affiliate even offers relief if a union officer’s accumulation of previously deferred payments or leave buy-outs leads to higher tax obligations – in the form of the “gross-up” payment.
If you are unfamiliar with the term, that’s when the employer picks up the tab for the additional tax the employee will have to pay for a unusually large lump sum payment. Of course, the “gross-up” payment itself is taxable, so it is often made large enough to help cover that extra tax as well. The practice has come under fire in corporate America (http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-03-04/when-shareholders-pay-the-ceos-tax-bill), so it’s ironic to see it turn up in a union.
Since much of this alternative compensation is hidden, it will be difficult to discern how much it will be affected by membership losses and budget cuts. When revenues can’t cover payroll, union staffers are laid off. But executive officers are elected. Some have accepted pay freezes, but I haven’t heard any talk of rolling back these kinds of benefits. If done, it will be done quietly, so as not to alert the rank-and-file to their existence in the first place.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/12/03/the-perks-of-being-a-union-executive/

[Larrymc]

Ah, but you're forgetting an important point: What happens to employee wages at Burger King, Wendy's and such? They cant keep their employees if they could make $8/hr more to do the same job at another location. So the only way to retain employees? Raise wages. Same in the $3 burger restaurant for the scenario. It's the domino effect, and that's how it works. The unions proposed by the workers would quickly expand to cover all fast food places, even the mom and popsi think the point your missing is burger joints or a Cheep place to grab a bite, let the Unions in and they will put them out of business quick, people wont pay Stack and Sea food prices for a burger

[Larrymc]

Gabby, I found this gem regarding the perks of being a union executive. So much for the union being for the benefit of its membersas usual good info, people who support Unions can't see pass there nose, there not concerned with the business, or even there on job, they just want all they can get right now, and or genuinely Shocked when the Business closes

[red states rule]

as usual good info, people who support Unions can't see pass there nose, there not concerned with the business, or even there on job, they just want all they can get right now, and or genuinely Shocked when the Business closes
In Gabby's case it is her blue nose. (The nose she looks down upon people with)

[aboutime]

Yeah, and that's just the basics. Understanding how credit works, and how the economy works is intrinsically important to getting by these days.


DragonStryk. Not only do they not know how to use a checkbook, or balance one. Most of them never have touched ACTUAL cold, hard cash. Since Bank cards, Debit Cards, and Credit cards NEVER RUN OUT...when someone else is paying.

Those BASICS we all learned while in school have become BASIC Appreciation for People who are Different, and BASIC tv channel surfing, only surpassed by TEXTING, DOWNLOADING, and I-PHONE communications that PREVENT all FACE-TO-FACE contact with other Human beings.

[DragonStryk72]

i think the point your missing is burger joints or a Cheep place to grab a bite, let the Unions in and they will put them out of business quick, people wont pay Stack and Sea food prices for a burger

Ah yes, but remember that the union would be across ALL fast food workers, not just McDonald's. I was referring to a side point of what would happen should they manage to remain afloat long enough for the changes to domino effect.

[red states rule]

I am sure unions will do to fast food what they did to the auto industry, the airlines, and the taxpayers footing the cost of public sector unions. Enough said

[aboutime]

I am sure unions will do to fast food what they did to the auto industry, the airlines, and the taxpayers footing the cost of public sector unions. Enough said


red states rule. I agree. And when they do. Only government run, union member employee's will be making, and handing out 25 Dollar, UNION MADE burgers and fries to....Nobody.

[tailfins]

red states rule. I agree. And when they do. Only government run, union member employee's will be making, and handing out 25 Dollar, UNION MADE burgers and fries to....Nobody.

Then people start selling bootleg burgers.

[red states rule]

Then people start selling bootleg burgers.

and that would piss off the "revenuers"

[DragonStryk72]

I am sure unions will do to fast food what they did to the auto industry, the airlines, and the taxpayers footing the cost of public sector unions. Enough said

And then of course, the other unions will pitch a fit that "burger flippers" (McDonald's now using something like a Foreman Grill, so there is no flipping involved) make almost as much as they do, and demand more money.