Engineering fail!

[logroller]

I noticed my dad's car, an '04 Chrysler Concorde, had a headlamp out. Being the good son I am I volunteered to swap it out for him. Little did I realize that the HID lamp assembly fits in there so perfectly. How perfectly you ask...it requires the removal of the front bumper cover to remove the whole assembly in order to access the bulb. With that type of engineering I should be thankful it doesn't have square wheels. :lame2:

[jimnyc]

I noticed my dad's car, an '04 Chrysler Concorde, had a headlamp out. Being the good son I am I volunteered to swap it out for him. Little did I realize that the HID lamp assembly fits in there so perfectly. How perfectly you ask...it requires the removal of the front bumper cover to remove the whole assembly in order to access the bulb. With that type of engineering I should be thankful it doesn't have square wheels. :lame2:

So, is the bumper sitting next to the car? LOL

[logroller]

So, is the bumper sitting next to the car? LOL
Still prying fasteners. What a pain in the ass. I'm changing both lamps. Temped to run down to the parts store and buy high same and turn lamps too. I sure don't want to do this again anytime soon, if ever.

[jimnyc]

Still prying fasteners. What a pain in the ass. I'm changing both lamps. Temped to run down to the parts store and buy high same and turn lamps too. I sure don't want to do this again anytime soon, if ever.

I remember the good old days, open the hood, take out like 6 screws and remove the lamp and a socket, pop a new one in, tighten the screws and job done in less than 10 minutes! They probably do this so that you can return to the dealerships and pay $3-500 for swapping lamps!!

[cadet]

I remember the good old days, open the hood, take out like 6 screws and remove the lamp and a socket, pop a new one in, tighten the screws and job done in less than 10 minutes! They probably do this so that you can return to the dealerships and pay $3-500 for swapping lamps!!

Gotta stay in business. A lot of stuff designed is either made to break, (like an air conditioner, it literally has a magnet that slowly falls off breaking the connection causing you to hire a professional) or is made to have so many replacing items that you may as well buy a new one each time. Learned about this while job shadowing.

[mundame]

I remember the good old days, open the hood, take out like 6 screws and remove the lamp and a socket, pop a new one in, tighten the screws and job done in less than 10 minutes! They probably do this so that you can return to the dealerships and pay $3-500 for swapping lamps!!


See, they need an upgrade path. :rolleyes: They have to be able to keep making money off you after the initial purchase.

[Noir]

Gotta stay in business. A lot of stuff designed is either made to break, (like an air conditioner, it literally has a magnet that slowly falls off breaking the connection causing you to hire a professional) or is made to have so many replacing items that you may as well buy a new one each time. Learned about this while job shadowing.

This is an obvious failing in capitalist business structure. Building something that lasts, damages the company that builds it.

[PostmodernProphet]

I remember a car back in the seventies, you had to pull the engine to replace spark plugs.....

[aboutime]

I remember a car back in the seventies, you had to pull the engine to replace spark plugs.....


Anyone remember when WE could personally perform a TUNE-UP, and change the Oil ourselves?

Today. There is NO such thing as a Tune-up. Everything under the hood is controlled by computer chips, and Electronic Diagnosis machines that nearly require thousands of dollars worth of equipment...in a shop, being used by a trained Expert in STEALING MONEY LEGALLY.

Yes. They need to stay in business. But they won't get my business.

[Robert A Whit]

I can replace my light bulbs in my caddy in 10 minutes.

I changed oil for the first time recently and it took me maybe 20 minutes tops and included changing the oil filter. Prior to this, I had always taken it in for service.

Prior to Obama, I got oil changes including the oil and filter at Wal Mart for about $23 taxes included.

I had planned to have them change oil the last time but purchased oil for about $14 and saved a lot since Wal Mart had raised the price to about $50. Thanks Obama for making sure CA won't drill for our own oil.

[tailfins]

I noticed my dad's car, an '04 Chrysler Concorde, had a headlamp out. Being the good son I am I volunteered to swap it out for him. Little did I realize that the HID lamp assembly fits in there so perfectly. How perfectly you ask...it requires the removal of the front bumper cover to remove the whole assembly in order to access the bulb. With that type of engineering I should be thankful it doesn't have square wheels. :lame2:

Never owned a Mopar and likely never will. Thanks for confirming my bias.

[tailfins]

I can replace my light bulbs in my caddy in 10 minutes.

I changed oil for the first time recently and it took me maybe 20 minutes tops and included changing the oil filter. Prior to this, I had always taken it in for service.

Prior to Obama, I got oil changes including the oil and filter at Wal Mart for about $23 taxes included.

I had planned to have them change oil the last time but purchased oil for about $14 and saved a lot since Wal Mart had raised the price to about $50. Thanks Obama for making sure CA won't drill for our own oil.

Maybe IN THIS CASE Walmart is the problem.

http://static.pepboys.com/images/coupons/nov2012/12759-08_Holidaylanding_2499oilchange_exp11-30_spservice.jpg

[Robert A Whit]

Pep Boys closed here. Still, just to use that coupon, I have no plans to have them drain my brand new oil or install an inferior oil finter just to claim I saved money.

[Robert A Whit]

I noticed a bit of fogging up on one of my tail lights and figured it was time to replace the lense.

Well, Caddy informed me the system is one unit.

What does that unit cost I asked.

About $450 as I remember.

I still have a tail light that has some bit of fog in bad weather. It does not cut down on the light to the rear so as long as it costs that much, I plan to leave it alone.

Front head lights are about $500. Fortunately bulbs are cheap and are easily changed.

[logroller]

All that work and its an electric short. Curses mopar. CURSES!!!!!!!

[jimnyc]

All that work and its an electric short. Curses mopar. CURSES!!!!!!!

Wow, you just getting out from under the car this morning? :coffee:

[Marcus Aurelius]

I noticed my dad's car, an '04 Chrysler Concorde, had a headlamp out. Being the good son I am I volunteered to swap it out for him. Little did I realize that the HID lamp assembly fits in there so perfectly. How perfectly you ask...it requires the removal of the front bumper cover to remove the whole assembly in order to access the bulb. With that type of engineering I should be thankful it doesn't have square wheels. :lame2:

three plastic pegs in the front, and a couple screws on each side, and that is all that holds your bumper cover on. It's a 3 minute removal, if that.

[ConHog]

three plastic pegs in the front, and a couple screws on each side, and that is all that holds your bumper cover on. It's a 3 minute removal, if that.

UM WHAT? lol had one in shop the other day put headlights in. 2009 chevy malibu. had to remove the front bumper entirely to change headlights. 3 hour job

http://s13.postimage.org/b8nxm1mub/20130110_104704.jpg?noCache=1357845364

look at that bullshit to change a headlight bulb. of course changed all 4 and the turn signal bulbs while we had it apart.

[Marcus Aurelius]

UM WHAT? lol had one in shop the other day put headlights in. 2009 chevy malibu. had to remove the front bumper entirely to change headlights. 3 hour job

http://s13.postimage.org/b8nxm1mub/20130110_104704.jpg?noCache=1357845364

look at that bullshit to change a headlight bulb. of course changed all 4 and the turn signal bulbs while we had it apart.

Yeah, those have a lot more holding the bumper cover on than the the a fore mentioned Concord. Still, you could pull the pins in the wheel well, and the crap load of bolts above the radiator, and just gently bend it down like they did in the 3:00 Minute mark here...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zUO_hlNL8o

[tailfins]

UM WHAT? lol had one in shop the other day put headlights in. 2009 chevy malibu. had to remove the front bumper entirely to change headlights. 3 hour job

http://s13.postimage.org/b8nxm1mub/20130110_104704.jpg?noCache=1357845364

look at that bullshit to change a headlight bulb. of course changed all 4 and the turn signal bulbs while we had it apart.

They call it Government Motors for a reason.

[logroller]

three plastic pegs in the front, and a couple screws on each side, and that is all that holds your bumper cover on. It's a 3 minute removal, if that.
Perhaps you missed the point of this endeavor: changing the headlamp, not removing the bumper (plus the time to reinstall the bumper and align everything) It takes me about three minutes to remove my toilet too; but it would be an idiotic design of toilet that a simple clog required removing the toilet. On other vehicles I've owned it took all of a minute to change and test both bulbs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Did I mention the bulbs were fine, it was a separate fuse not listed in the owners manual or on the fuse box cover. This was a clear-cut case of after-thought engineering.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=610232#post610232)
three plastic pegs in the front, and a couple screws on each side, and that is all that holds your bumper cover on. It's a 3 minute removal, if that.



Perhaps you missed the point of this endeavor: changing the headlamp, not removing the bumper (plus the time to reinstall the bumper and align everything) It takes me about three minutes to remove my toilet too; but it would be an idiotic design of toilet that a simple clog required removing the toilet. On other vehicles I've owned it took all of a minute to change and test both bulbs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Did I mention the bulbs were fine, it was a separate fuse not listed in the owners manual or on the fuse box cover. This was a clear-cut case of after-thought engineering.

point is, it's not a big deal to do it. it's a piece of cake. Not the engineer fault if you can't manage 3 plastic pegs and a set of screws.

the engineers job is to make it functional, and look good so it sells. Not necessarily to make it easy for you to change a freaking bulb.

[revelarts]

Gotta stay in business. A lot of stuff designed is either made to break, (like an air conditioner, it literally has a magnet that slowly falls off breaking the connection causing you to hire a professional) or is made to have so many replacing items that you may as well buy a new one each time. Learned about this while job shadowing.


This is an obvious failing in capitalist business structure. Building something that lasts, damages the company that builds it.

Another reason why electric cars are not rolling out as fast. Bad for big biz after sales repairs

there's very little extra engine work to do.
no oil changes, gas engine adjustments to make, no air filters .
The ancillary after sales regular repairs drops off like a stone.
Leaving a whole in the dealerships bottom line.

[Robert A Whit]

Another reason why electric cars are not rolling out as fast. Bad for big biz after sales repairs

there's very little extra engine work to do.
no oil changes, gas engine adjustments to make, no air filters .
The ancillary after sales regular repairs drops off like a stone.
Leaving a whole in the dealerships bottom line.

They are not rolling out in large numbers because the public does not want them given their many problems.

[Little-Acorn]

I noticed my dad's car, an '04 Chrysler Concorde, had a headlamp out. Being the good son I am I volunteered to swap it out for him. Little did I realize that the HID lamp assembly fits in there so perfectly. How perfectly you ask...it requires the removal of the front bumper cover to remove the whole assembly in order to access the bulb. With that type of engineering I should be thankful it doesn't have square wheels. :lame2:

In the 1960s, Ford came out with a model of the Mustang where, if you wanted to tune it up, you had to unbolt the entire engine and lift it up out of the car to get access to the spark plugs to change them.

And just try to change the spark plugs in a 1973 VW bug with air conditioning..... :death:

[logroller]

They are not rolling out in large numbers because the public does not want them given their many problems.
Problems you say? Like range. Well according to one poster such "problems" are "no big deal"; plugging in an electric is even easier than plastic rivets and a screw...just saying. Not as easy as refueling a gas engine, but still a piece of cake. You're just being cynical. :laugh:

[Robert A Whit]

Problems you say? Like range. Well according to one poster such "problems" are "no big deal"; plugging in an electric is even easier than plastic rivets and a screw...just saying. Not as easy as refueling a gas engine, but still a piece of cake. You're just being cynical. :laugh:

Let's be practical just the same way the public is.

Given the short range of the electric auto, plus the extreme out of service period of time of same auto, plus the general tiny size of said auto, for most it is not practical.

It is a niche vehicle. Were it not, the government would not need to pay out billions in fees to buyers to get them to buy one.

Bear in mind that when the Feds pay a lot of cash out, they do it to overcome market resistance. Market resistance is fair in that it suits what the market really wants. Even the Volt, a better idea, is a slow seller, despite the enormous kick back of cash to them, despite they may not have paid any taxes yet get paid to buy a car.

[Robert A Whit]

In the 1960s, Ford came out with a model of the Mustang where, if you wanted to tune it up, you had to unbolt the entire engine and lift it up out of the car to get access to the spark plugs to change them.

And just try to change the spark plugs in a 1973 VW bug with air conditioning..... :death:

I purchased several of the twin to the mustang, the Cougar, for my child and dang if I had any problem changing spark plugs. I keep scratching my head wondering what you are talking about.

As to the VW, not part of my resume of knowledge. I did own a Corvair and changed it's plugs. Seems it was easy. But the problem with it was leaking oil from the push rod tubes.

I had my guys in my shop yank the engine out and rebuild it. It still leaked at the push rod tubes.

Trouble was, the air around the engine was also used to heat the car and oil fumes came into the car. I ended up having it hauled off for scrap.

[glockmail]

Never owned a Mopar and likely never will. Thanks for confirming my bias.

An '04 Mopar is nothing like a '13. They've gone through a few owners since then. They've benefited from their German, now their Italian owners.

All I've done on my '12 Jeep so far is change the oil. Due to a very elegant design, it's a no-drip process.

[glockmail]

I noticed my dad's car, an '04 Chrysler Concorde, had a headlamp out. Being the good son I am I volunteered to swap it out for him. Little did I realize that the HID lamp assembly fits in there so perfectly. How perfectly you ask...it requires the removal of the front bumper cover to remove the whole assembly in order to access the bulb. With that type of engineering I should be thankful it doesn't have square wheels. :lame2:

Are you sure? Many front light assemblies are accessed through the inner wheel fenders. Jack the car up, remove the wheels, and use a upholstery fork to remove the plastic retainers.

Replace every bub in the car at the same time. While you're at the store buy replacement plastic retainers.

[Little-Acorn]

I purchased several of the twin to the mustang, the Cougar, for my child and dang if I had any problem changing spark plugs.

Any of them have the 390?

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=633266#post633266)

I purchased several of the twin to the mustang, the Cougar, for my child and dang if I had any problem changing spark plugs.



Any of them have the 390?

Ah haa

No, none of hers did. Hers had the smaller block engines.

Her stepfathers cougar I believe did but I never worked on his car.

Funny but last time I worked on a Cougar was probably 1984. When you asked about the 390, a light turned on. Thanks for bringing up that larger block engine.

To be honest here, I can't recall how much larger the 390 is compared to the smaller engine. I was remembering the pretty large space for the engine. or I thought so anyway.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Are you sure? Many front light assemblies are accessed through the inner wheel fenders. Jack the car up, remove the wheels, and use a upholstery fork to remove the plastic retainers.

Replace every bub in the car at the same time. While you're at the store buy replacement plastic retainers.

Yeah, on the '04 Concorde you have to remove the headlamp housing assembly, to get to the back where you then could just remove the bulb from the back of the housing... not enough clearance to remove the buld without pulling the housing first.

http://www.justanswer.com/chrysler/409nw-replace-headlight-bulbs-2004-chrysler.html

[glockmail]

Ah haa

No, none of hers did. Hers had the smaller block engines.

Her stepfathers cougar I believe did but I never worked on his car.

Funny but last time I worked on a Cougar was probably 1984. When you asked about the 390, a light turned on. Thanks for bringing up that larger block engine.

To be honest here, I can't recall how much larger the 390 is compared to the smaller engine. I was remembering the pretty large space for the engine. or I thought so anyway.

The 390 is the "FE" engine, developed in the late 50's and considered by Ford to be a "medium block" back in the day. It's a lot larger and heavier than the small block that was developed later.

The base casting for the FE is 352 cubic inches, bored and stroked by the factory up to 428. The largest small block displaced 351.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=633303#post633303)

Ah haa

No, none of hers did. Hers had the smaller block engines.

Her stepfathers cougar I believe did but I never worked on his car.

Funny but last time I worked on a Cougar was probably 1984. When you asked about the 390, a light turned on. Thanks for bringing up that larger block engine.

To be honest here, I can't recall how much larger the 390 is compared to the smaller engine. I was remembering the pretty large space for the engine. or I thought so anyway.



The 390 is the "FE" engine, developed in the late 50's and considered by Ford to be a "medium block" back in the day. It's a lot larger and heavier than the small block that was developed later.

The base casting for the FE is 352 cubic inches, bored and stroked by the factory up to 428. The largest small block displaced 351.

Thanks for clearing that up. Her block was the same block as the 351 but had less displacement. I really did not want to buy her cars to use for high speeds.

This topic is one I had thought I forgot about.

Back when she had the cars, it had to be almost 30 years ago. Her mom was a fan of the Cougar and I paid cash for hers. When my daughter got into her teen years, she wanted one also. Plus her step dad drove one too.

[glockmail]

Her block was the same block as the 351 but had less displacement. '67 or older would have been the 289; later years the 302 which was an identical casting, the same stroke and slightly larger bore. The 351 derived from that had the same bore and 1/2" longer stroke, achieved by a taller deck height. It resulted in an engine about 1.5" wider. Built in Windsor Canada, it became the 351W.

Mid '70's Ford went to a newer engine of the same displacement and built it in Cleveland- the 351C. It was relatively short-lived, probably because of the oil embargo. The 302 lived on until the late 90's as the 5.0 (liters).

The 5.0 Coyote that Ford built for the 2011 Mustang is nothing at all like the old small block 5.0. It's a completely modern engine using double overhead cams and four valves per cylinder. It also looks like a piece of art:

4901

[Robert A Whit]

'67 or older would have been the 289; later years the 302 which was an identical casting, the same stroke and slightly larger bore. The 351 derived from that had the same bore and 1/2" longer stroke, achieved by a taller deck height. It resulted in an engine about 1.5" wider. Built in Windsor Canada, it became the 351W.

Mid '70's Ford went to a newer engine of the same displacement and built it in Cleveland- the 351C. It was relatively short-lived, probably because of the oil embargo. The 302 lived on until the late 90's as the 5.0 (liters).

The 5.0 Coyote that Ford built for the 2011 Mustang is nothing at all like the old small block 5.0. It's a completely modern engine using double overhead cams and four valves per cylinder. It also looks like a piece of art:

4901

Thanks again. You are correct that her engine was the 289. I recall she was hoping to get the Cleveland engine. This really is almost ancient history for me. I believe her engine had the 2 barrel and the Cleveland had a 4 barrel Carburetor. My car has the double overhead cams and with the 4 valve set up too and has plenty of power and it is not as large in displacement as hers was.

My engine

4902

[glockmail]

Thanks again. You are correct that her engine was the 289. I recall she was hoping to get the Cleveland engine. This really is almost ancient history for me. I believe her engine had the 2 barrel and the Cleveland had a 4 barrel Carburetor. My car has the double overhead cams and with the 4 valve set up too and has plenty of power and it is not as large in displacement as hers was.

My engine

4902

All of the small block engines were available in high performance 4V (V= venturi, in other words 4 barrel carburetors) versions.

Never been a GM fan. My Dad had a '75 Cadillac Coupe De-ville. In the height of the Carter years the only engine available was the 500 cubic inch big block. What dummies those GM execs were, and still are. He was lucky to get 8 or 9 mpg while I was humming along averaging 17 in my '72 full sized Ford.

About ten years ago my wife's company gave her a new Chevy Trailblazer. It drove and rode exactly like my old man's Caddy. It also sucked gas like an elephant drinks water. Glad to get rid of it.

I've had Fords forever, and enjoyed much better fuel economy and a tighter, more responsive ride. My last one was an Expedition with IRS and rear air suspension. Except for the fuel economy similar to my '72 it was a great vehicle. At the time I needed a large vehicle but now I don't. The new Explorer is a FWD platform; nothing more than a glorified minivan and I won't have a FWD vehicle in my garage.

My current daily driver is a '12 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the Overland package. It's built on a Mercedes chassis, 51-49 weight distribution with fully independent air suspension and ride-height selectable from a dial in the cabin. It has the new Pentastar 3.6L V6, which is all aluminum, DOHC, twin variable valve timing, 290 HP and tuned to a flat torque band between 1400-6200 rpm. It's a sweet ride, and is by far a much better vehicle than any Ford or GM vehicle out there. And it was a lot less expensive.

[Voted4Reagan]

http://classichrome.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/440-six-pack.jpg

[Robert A Whit]

http://classichrome.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/440-six-pack.jpg

if that is yours, congratulations. Heck of a nice job. Looks good enough for car shows.

[Robert A Whit]

All of the small block engines were available in high performance 4V (V= venturi, in other words 4 barrel carburetors) versions.

Never been a GM fan. My Dad had a '75 Cadillac Coupe De-ville. In the height of the Carter years the only engine available was the 500 cubic inch big block. What dummies those GM execs were, and still are. He was lucky to get 8 or 9 mpg while I was humming along averaging 17 in my '72 full sized Ford.

About ten years ago my wife's company gave her a new Chevy Trailblazer. It drove and rode exactly like my old man's Caddy. It also sucked gas like an elephant drinks water. Glad to get rid of it.

I've had Fords forever, and enjoyed much better fuel economy and a tighter, more responsive ride. My last one was an Expedition with IRS and rear air suspension. Except for the fuel economy similar to my '72 it was a great vehicle. At the time I needed a large vehicle but now I don't. The new Explorer is a FWD platform; nothing more than a glorified minivan and I won't have a FWD vehicle in my garage.

My current daily driver is a '12 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the Overland package. It's built on a Mercedes chassis, 51-49 weight distribution with fully independent air suspension and ride-height selectable from a dial in the cabin. It has the new Pentastar 3.6L V6, which is all aluminum, DOHC, twin variable valve timing, 290 HP and tuned to a flat torque band between 1400-6200 rpm. It's a sweet ride, and is by far a much better vehicle than any Ford or GM vehicle out there. And it was a lot less expensive.

My northstar has got as much as 30 mpg. As heavy as it is, I consider that very good. I have owned both Fords and GM. This car is the best of all of them. I admit to never trying the Jeep. If I decide to get another new car, I shall plan to check them out given your high marks, Mine has computer controlled suspension but no air ride. I really want to try out the air ride. You have plenty of power too. I am guessing but it sounds like your cams are variable timing. To get a flat torque that makes sense to me.

[glockmail]

http://classichrome.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/440-six-pack.jpg

Sweet. :salute:

[glockmail]

My northstar has got as much as 30 mpg. As heavy as it is, I consider that very good. I have owned both Fords and GM. This car is the best of all of them. I admit to never trying the Jeep. If I decide to get another new car, I shall plan to check them out given your high marks, Mine has computer controlled suspension but no air ride. I really want to try out the air ride. You have plenty of power too. I am guessing but it sounds like your cams are variable timing. To get a flat torque that makes sense to me.

Yeah, "twin variable valve timing" means that the cam timing is variable. The Pentastar idles at 500 rpm in gear, near silently.

ChyCo uses a variant of my Jeep chassis in the 300/ Charger, as well as the Challenger. The Pentastar is available in each, tuned a bit differently to take advantage of the lighter vehicles.

Ford no longer makes a RWD car. Their large car is now based on a variant of a Volvo FWD chassis. My dad has owned a succession of Lincoln Town Car for years, and I've convinced him to look at the Chrysler 300 for his next. It would be the car that I'd have if I didn't need the cargo capacity of the Jeep.

[taft2012]

I noticed my dad's car, an '04 Chrysler Concorde, had a headlamp out. Being the good son I am I volunteered to swap it out for him. Little did I realize that the HID lamp assembly fits in there so perfectly. How perfectly you ask...it requires the removal of the front bumper cover to remove the whole assembly in order to access the bulb. With that type of engineering I should be thankful it doesn't have square wheels. :lame2:

For future reference,you might want to check YouTube for videos on such DIY projects. I found this which would have been of assistance I'm sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBjiQvshmzU

Yet even so, I agree. An unnecessary nuisance to change a headlamp.

[logroller]

For future reference,you might want to check YouTube for videos on such DIY projects. I found this which would have been of assistance I'm sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBjiQvshmzU

Yet even so, I agree. An unnecessary nuisance to change a headlamp.
I did watch that video, among others, but the prevailing truth on DIY videos is they don't show the entirety of the process that often (read:always) includes challenges. Its like watching a thirty minute episode of this old house and thinking you can restore a Victorian home.

[Robert A Whit]

Yeah, "twin variable valve timing" means that the cam timing is variable. The Pentastar idles at 500 rpm in gear, near silently.

ChyCo uses a variant of my Jeep chassis in the 300/ Charger, as well as the Challenger. The Pentastar is available in each, tuned a bit differently to take advantage of the lighter vehicles.

Ford no longer makes a RWD car. Their large car is now based on a variant of a Volvo FWD chassis. My dad has owned a succession of Lincoln Town Car for years, and I've convinced him to look at the Chrysler 300 for his next. It would be the car that I'd have if I didn't need the cargo capacity of the Jeep.

In late 61 to early 62, I was working on a variable cam timing system and had to go into the army ala the draft.

I plan to see how they do it today to see how close my system was to theirs.

The cam can't vary itself, but it can be slightly moved to a new position to in effect vary the timing.

[glockmail]

In late 61 to early 62, I was working on a variable cam timing system and had to go into the army ala the draft.

I plan to see how they do it today to see how close my system was to theirs.

The cam can't vary itself, but it can be slightly moved to a new position to in effect vary the timing.

The cam gear is connected to the shaft through a mechanism that changes the angle, and that angle is chosen by the computer. Ford uses hydraulic oil pressure. I'm not exactly sure how ChyCo does it.

BMW varies the valve lift as well. It's a lever system that acts on the lifters. Again, the position is chosen by the computer. This takes the place of the throttle butterfly valve. Personally I think it's overly complex, and on my wife's little sedan, I don't like the throttle response at all.

[Robert A Whit]

The cam gear is connected to the shaft through a mechanism that changes the angle, and that angle is chosen by the computer. Ford uses hydraulic oil pressure. I'm not exactly sure how ChyCo does it.

BMW varies the valve lift as well. It's a lever system that acts on the lifters. Again, the position is chosen by the computer. This takes the place of the throttle butterfly valve. Personally I think it's overly complex, and on my wife's little sedan, I don't like the throttle response at all.

Today I read up on all systems as explained on the internet. i am sure at the factories research departments, there is more even more current, not explained for legal reasons, probably.

I am now well versed on the various systems.

My system conceived I believe in 1961 was different. It is very primitive compared to the current systems. It was a bit of fun looking this up. I recall well the desmodromic system and how MBZ was using it. I was so busy building race engines that my time to work on the cam system was limited. Getting out of the Army and getting married soon after took me away from the race business.
Yes, I realize they also vary valve lift. Glad to hear more about throttle response. If it has a exhaust turbo system, perhaps that is why.

I used to own a Studebaker Golden Hawk with a super charger and I seem to recall that it too had a bit of sluggish response. Actually it had another problem that I tried to repair in Germany involving the carburetor system. A float was leaking and I did my best using what was available at the motor pool to fix it. I soldered it back together. Still had problems. I was about to leave Germany and sadly had to abandon the Hawk and I was later told it was crushed by the Germans who were told to pick it up.

I gave the keys to a guy I thought was trustworthy but he let the ball drop since he did not own it. He promised to sell it and take a commission then send me the balance. Never heard a word from him again. I knew the unit phone number so called them from the USA and learned it was destroyed. That had the huge Packard engine.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Today I read up on all systems as explained on the internet. i am sure at the factories research departments, there is more even more current, not explained for legal reasons, probably.

I am now well versed on the various systems.



You are now, as full of shit as you always were.

A few minutes of Internet research does not make even a narcissistic nutjob like you, 'well versed' in anything.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/well-versed


well-versed [wel-vurst]

adjective highly experienced, practiced, or skilled; very knowledgeable; learned:

[aboutime]

You are now, as full of shit as you always were.

A few minutes of Internet research does not make even a narcissistic nutjob like you, 'well versed' in anything.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/well-versed


Marcus. Wait till Robert discovers how he can get a MASTER'S degree in almost anything he wants on the Internet...IF the price is right..almost Overnight!

[Marcus Aurelius]

Marcus. Wait till Robert discovers how he can get a MASTER'S degree in almost anything he wants on the Internet...IF the price is right..almost Overnight!

you can get anything over the Internet. I myself am an ordained minister in the Universal Church of Light. Doesn't mean I am well versed in all aspects of religion or ministry.

[aboutime]

you can get anything over the Internet. I myself am an ordained minister in the Universal Church of Light. Doesn't mean I am well versed in all aspects of religion or ministry.


Marcus. Exactly. Though I refuse to brag about myself like many feel they must here.

I am very proud of my Primary, and First, Honest Degree.....which is Humanity...'98.6'.

[Marcus Aurelius]

now, to get back on track with the thread topic...

http://static2.beanscdn.co.uk/modules/SbPicture/picture/epic-engineering-fail-1.jpg

http://www.lincolninteractive.org/html/CES%20Introduction%20to%20Engineering/Unit%203/u3l3_files/ces_intro_engineering_u3l3_pic1_pisa.jpg

https://forums.playfire.com/_proxy/?url=http%3A%2F%2Finsultants.files.wordpress.com%2 F2008%2F04%2Fepic-fail2.jpg&hmac=fa6d9a7ca2ec952794b141d0a9016f6b

[glockmail]

Yes, I realize they also vary valve lift. Glad to hear more about throttle response. If it has a exhaust turbo system, perhaps that is why.
.

No turbo on wife's BMW. Normally aspirated 3.0L inline 6 cylinder. More than enough displacement for what should be crisp throttle response in such a small car (3 series). It seems to have a sight hesitation, then spins up to 6000 rpm, sort of like a delayed on-off switch. She say's she's used to it. I think it's crap.

When we were buying that car for her I test drove an Audi which is nearly identical in size and weight. It had a 2.0L 4 cyl turbo. There was no lag whatsoever and nice crisp throttle response. It was a better car than the MW, but she didn't like the color of the dash lights.

Turbos have come a long way since the 60's. There is no lag with a well engineered set-up.

[glockmail]

now, to get back on track with the thread topic...

http://static2.beanscdn.co.uk/modules/SbPicture/picture/epic-engineering-fail-1.jpg

http://www.lincolninteractive.org/html/CES%20Introduction%20to%20Engineering/Unit%203/u3l3_files/ces_intro_engineering_u3l3_pic1_pisa.jpg

https://forums.playfire.com/_proxy/?url=http%3A%2F%2Finsultants.files.wordpress.com%2 F2008%2F04%2Fepic-fail2.jpg&hmac=fa6d9a7ca2ec952794b141d0a9016f6b

Leave it to you to notice the shadows on the first picture. :laugh: That would be, however, an architectural fail.

[Robert A Whit]

Glock, apparently the conversation you and i are having has made two posters upset. So much so, we are now the topic.

You and I understand what we are discussing yet for a rather odd reason, only one of us is being whined about. i now discover that some poster believes he is in charge of the topic and demands we do as he tells us.

As to my well versed remark, I have a long history of being versed in auto design. Since I had been designing a system to vary cams, I came to this topic with a background so it is nothing special that I am versed on cams.

But since it upsets two posters, should you want to discuss this further, maybe by PM.

thanks for your assistance.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Glock, apparently the conversation you and i are having has made two posters upset. So much so, we are now the topic.

You and I understand what we are discussing yet for a rather odd reason, only one of us is being whined about. i now discover that some poster believes he is in charge of the topic and demands we do as he tells us.

As to my well versed remark, I have a long history of being versed in auto design. Since I had been designing a system to vary cams, I came to this topic with a background so it is nothing special that I am versed on cams.

But since it upsets two posters, should you want to discuss this further, maybe by PM.

thanks for your assistance.

upset, hardly. Just pointing out another of your narcissistic lies. So far, you're an self proclaimed expert on HOA's, law, CA in general, and now cam design.

Tell us, numbnuts...is there ANY subject you've ever discussed on this board, in which you are NOT a self described 'expert'?

Please.. show me the post where I claimed to be in charge, or demanded anything. A copy/paste would suffice, or a link to said demanding post.

[jimnyc]

Glock, apparently the conversation you and i are having has made two posters upset. So much so, we are now the topic.

You and I understand what we are discussing yet for a rather odd reason, only one of us is being whined about. i now discover that some poster believes he is in charge of the topic and demands we do as he tells us.

As to my well versed remark, I have a long history of being versed in auto design. Since I had been designing a system to vary cams, I came to this topic with a background so it is nothing special that I am versed on cams.

But since it upsets two posters, should you want to discuss this further, maybe by PM.

thanks for your assistance.

I came to this thread to see what was up based on a reported post. But I see you are handling yourself and engaging the issue yourself. It's stupid to complain about others, and then discuss them in your next post. It would be wiser if you report a post, to ignore said individuals until staff can help fix the thread.

[Robert A Whit]

No turbo on wife's BMW. Normally aspirated 3.0L inline 6 cylinder. More than enough displacement for what should be crisp throttle response in such a small car (3 series). It seems to have a sight hesitation, then spins up to 6000 rpm, sort of like a delayed on-off switch. She say's she's used to it. I think it's crap.

When we were buying that car for her I test drove an Audi which is nearly identical in size and weight. It had a 2.0L 4 cyl turbo. There was no lag whatsoever and nice crisp throttle response. It was a better car than the MW, but she didn't like the color of the dash lights.

Turbos have come a long way since the 60's. There is no lag with a well engineered set-up.

Have you had her car checked by a BMW technician? The Hawk did not have a turbo. It had a belt driven supercharger. Maybe a call to a BMW service guy could see if she should live with it or have it looked at.

[Robert A Whit]

I came to this thread to see what was up based on a reported post. But I see you are handling yourself and engaging the issue yourself. It's stupid to complain about others, and then discuss them in your next post. It would be wiser if you report a post, to ignore said individuals until staff can help fix the thread.

(slapping my head)

Now, given it was reported, one might think their posts would have been addressed FIRST.

No names were used though in talking to Glockmail, I am sure he too noticed.

I seem to be the only one chided here. So, since I did notice AFTER, they got dealt with on a different thread, I plan to see if they get chided first. As you request.

[Marcus Aurelius]

and back on topic we go...

http://scienceblogs.com/worldsfair/wp-content/blogs.dir/389/files/2012/04/i-4b4928e5f645e47d673c636f74d83b21-Pic5.jpg

http://www.funny-pics.biz/images/failures-design.jpg

http://organizationalphysics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Bad-Design.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JCXRRfSAIM0/TTzvhGrmYJI/AAAAAAAAABE/2ISts-8q4Fc/s1600/Bad-design-463x314.jpg

[Marcus Aurelius]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6594921984/hF70A0794/

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_Xq9IMig1s4/UNCVRl6qmoI/AAAAAAAA5bc/G3CMqp2nIjU/w497-h373/598371_543753548969503_1215760333_n.jpg

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/construction-mistakes-fail-funny-34.jpg?w=500&h=639&h=639

[jimnyc]

(slapping my head)

Now, given it was reported, one might think their posts would have been addressed FIRST.

No names were used though in talking to Glockmail, I am sure he too noticed.

I seem to be the only one chided here. So, since I did notice AFTER, they got dealt with on a different thread, I plan to see if they get chided first. As you request.

The point of reporting a post is to alert staff to the issue to be handled, not to report it to be handled and then respond about it yourself 2 seconds later before staff can even read any report. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Robert A Whit]

The point of reporting a post is to alert staff to the issue to be handled, not to report it to be handled and then respond about it yourself 2 seconds later before staff can even read any report. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You went after me in public. Keep in mind I addressed Glockmail and discussed our part of the topic.

Let me remind us all that the topic was over problems with automobiles. Glock and I discussed problems.

I shall wait to see if the same public treatment is given to him is all I am saying. As it stands, I suspect he thinks you approve what he says. I can't say for certain though.

[Marcus Aurelius]

As it stands, I suspect he thinks you approve what he says. I can't say for certain though.

you can suspect anything you like. However, it will be a cold day in Hell when you know what 'I' am thinking.

[aboutime]

and back on topic we go...

http://scienceblogs.com/worldsfair/wp-content/blogs.dir/389/files/2012/04/i-4b4928e5f645e47d673c636f74d83b21-Pic5.jpg

http://www.funny-pics.biz/images/failures-design.jpg

http://organizationalphysics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Bad-Design.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JCXRRfSAIM0/TTzvhGrmYJI/AAAAAAAAABE/2ISts-8q4Fc/s1600/Bad-design-463x314.jpg


Thanks Marcus. Funny stuff. That last one...just above had to be for NBA players...MAYBE????

[glockmail]

Glock, apparently the conversation you and i are having has made two posters upset. So much so, we are now the topic.

You and I understand what we are discussing yet for a rather odd reason, only one of us is being whined about. i now discover that some poster believes he is in charge of the topic and demands we do as he tells us.

As to my well versed remark, I have a long history of being versed in auto design. Since I had been designing a system to vary cams, I came to this topic with a background so it is nothing special that I am versed on cams.

But since it upsets two posters, should you want to discuss this further, maybe by PM.

thanks for your assistance.

As anyone who knows me can attest, I'll say what I want, where and when I want to. :laugh:

[glockmail]

and back on topic we go...

http://scienceblogs.com/worldsfair/wp-content/blogs.dir/389/files/2012/04/i-4b4928e5f645e47d673c636f74d83b21-Pic5.jpg

http://www.funny-pics.biz/images/failures-design.jpg

http://organizationalphysics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Bad-Design.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JCXRRfSAIM0/TTzvhGrmYJI/AAAAAAAAABE/2ISts-8q4Fc/s1600/Bad-design-463x314.jpg

Dude these are all architectural failures and photoshops. Stick with the subject! :slap:

[glockmail]

Have you had her car checked by a BMW technician? The Hawk did not have a turbo. It had a belt driven supercharger. Maybe a call to a BMW service guy could see if she should live with it or have it looked at.

She doesn't need a service guy to tell her she can live with it. :slap:

[Marcus Aurelius]

Dude these are all architectural failures and photoshops. Stick with the subject! :slap:

You've never heard of architectural engineering? Structural engineering? Mechanical, electrical, plumbing (MEP) engineering?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_engineering

[glockmail]

You've never heard of architectural engineering? Structural engineering? Mechanical, electrical, plumbing (MEP) engineering?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_engineering

Yes, and I've been involved at one time or another in all of those. In a building project, the architect is the lead designer. Per your examples:


He tells us where the urinals are to be placed. A mechanical engineer will put together a schematic drawing showing the plumbing, usually an isometric. It has few dimensions, if any. A contractor, in this case a plumber, will then install the fixtures according to the architectural plans, then plumb up to them. Most plumbers will tell the architect: 'hey dummy, are you sure you want this here?" But others will install it exactly per plan, then get paid for a change order when the architect finds his mistake and makes a change.
Similar with the door handle, except it would be done by a carpenter. An engineer wouldn't be involved whatsoever.
Escalator that hits a ceiling, purely an architectural error.
The kiddie ride? Some ride designer. The engineer who designed the mechanism to run it would probably never see the product plans overall, and wouldn't be in a position to comment on it, never mind change it.
The disconnected bridge is a photoshop.
The penis shadows from the bridge railing, purely an architectural form.
The Tower of Pisa? It was built before the science of engineering was born.
I don't see any example of structural engineering failures posted here.

[jimnyc]

I was once referred to as a 'Petroleum Dispensing Engineer'

[Marcus Aurelius]

I was once referred to as a 'Petroleum Dispensing Engineer'

careful, or you'll get told you're off topic. :rolleyes:

[Marcus Aurelius]

Yes, and I've been involved at one time or another in all of those. In a building project, the architect is the lead designer. Per your examples:


He tells us where the urinals are to be placed. A mechanical engineer will put together a schematic drawing showing the plumbing, usually an isometric. It has few dimensions, if any. A contractor, in this case a plumber, will then install the fixtures according to the architectural plans, then plumb up to them. Most plumbers will tell the architect: 'hey dummy, are you sure you want this here?" But others will install it exactly per plan, then get paid for a change order when the architect finds his mistake and makes a change.
Similar with the door handle, except it would be done by a carpenter. An engineer wouldn't be involved whatsoever.
Escalator that hits a ceiling, purely an architectural error.
The kiddie ride? Some ride designer. The engineer who designed the mechanism to run it would probably never see the product plans overall, and wouldn't be in a position to comment on it, never mind change it.
The disconnected bridge is a photoshop.
The penis shadows from the bridge railing, purely an architectural form.
The Tower of Pisa? It was built before the science of engineering was born.
I don't see any example of structural engineering failures posted here.




really? Buildings fall under civil engineering...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_engineering

Engineering has been an aspect of life since the beginnings of human existence. The earliest practice of civil engineering may have commenced between 4000 and 2000 BC in Ancient Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt) and Mesopotamia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia) (Ancient Iraq) when humans started to abandon a nomadic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad) existence, creating a need for the construction of shelter. During this time, transportation became increasingly important leading to the development of the wheel and sailing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_history).
Until modern times there was no clear distinction between civil engineering and architecture, and the term engineer and architect were mainly geographical variations referring to the same person, often used interchangeably.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_engineering#cite_note-7) The construction of Pyramids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramids) in Egypt (circa 2700–2500 BC) might be considered the first instances of large structure constructions. Other ancient historic civil engineering constructions include the Qanat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat) water management system (the oldest older than 3000 years and longer than 71 km,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_engineering#cite_note-8)) the Parthenon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenon) by Iktinos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iktinos) in Ancient Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) (447–438 BC), the Appian Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian_Way) by Roman engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_engineering) (c. 312 BC), the Great Wall of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_China) by General Meng T'ien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Tian) under orders from Ch'in Emperor Shih Huang Ti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang) (c. 220 BC)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_engineering#cite_note-Oakes-6) and the stupas constructed in ancient Sri Lanka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lanka) like the Jetavanaramaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetavanaramaya) and the extensive irrigation works in Anuradhapura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuradhapura). The Romans developed civil structures throughout their empire, including especially aqueducts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct), insulae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulae), harbors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbors), bridges, dams and roads.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=633756#post633756)
Have you had her car checked by a BMW technician? The Hawk did not have a turbo. It had a belt driven supercharger. Maybe a call to a BMW service guy could see if she should live with it or have it looked at.


She doesn't need a service guy to tell her she can live with it. :slap:

I see.

[aboutime]

really? Buildings fall under civil engineering...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_engineering


Marcus. Actually. Technically, and Honestly speaking. EVERYTHING created by man, invented, built, designed, and used began with a plan of some kind. And...an engineer had a vital role in making just about everything Human beings used today, become reality.
All of those photo's you submitted here would not have been possible. Nor would this INTERNET mode of communications be possible without an Engineer.

[Robert A Whit]

Looks like Glockmail did a great job explaining the so called failures. Either the so called failures are photo shop presentations or done on purpose for some effect and so forth, but he is correct that the leaning tower of pizza was a mistake since at the time they had not perfected all they needed to properly engineer a foundation.

More modern errors can be such examples as the bridge in Washington state where high wends caused it to fall.

Even today, we in the SF Bay Area know all about the failed brand new bolts that snapped on the yet not open to the public Bay Bridge.

They did not properly test the bolts prior to installing them. I believe we were told the bolts were made in China. CA should have tested them first. There is no way short of destroying part of the bridge that they can put in new bolts. The engineers are trying to solve it and not change bolts.

But I prefer changing a lamp in a car to solving the problem at the SF Oakland Bay Bridge.

Examiner article

Bay Bridge bolt fix narrowed to two options—more answers coming in two weeks
By: Will Reisman (http://www.sfexaminer.com/people/will-reisman) | 04/24/13 9:14 PM
SF Examiner Staff Writer

http://www.sfexaminer.com/files/imagecache/large_scaled/blog_images/BridgeBolt1.0425.jpg (http://www.sfexaminer.com/files/blog_images/BridgeBolt1.0425.jpg)


Mike Koozmin/S.F. Examiner File Photo
Dozens of cracked steel rods were found on a section of the Bay Bridge’s new eastern span, prompting seismic safety concerns.

Transportation officials said Wednesday that it is still too early to determine if a batch of broken bolts on the new Bay Bridge eastern span will prevent the planned Labor Day opening, since major answers about the repairs are still two weeks away.
In March, inspectors discovered more than 30 broken steel rods — which bolt the bridge’s deck to its tower piers for seismic safety — on the new eastern span. Originally, officials said the problem would not interfere with the planned opening of the span, but they backed off that assertion earlier this month.
Bridge officials are still considering two potential fixes for the broken bolts, who will be on the hook to pay for the needed repairs, and whether another batch of bolts made by the same manufacturer need to be removed, too.


Read more at the San Francisco Examiner: http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2013/04/bay-bridge-bolt-fix-narrowed-two-options-more-answers-coming-two-weeks#ixzz2RVLN5DZ3

[Marcus Aurelius]

it would appear that some people have no sense of humor. Not overly surprising.

[Robert A Whit]

it would appear that some people have no sense of humor. Not overly surprising.

I too have noticed and I suppose others have also noticed.

[glockmail]

I was once referred to as a 'Petroleum Dispensing Engineer' The term is routinely abused. In my state, and probably many others, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you are licensed by the state engineering board.

[glockmail]

really? Buildings fall under civil engineering...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_engineering
Yes, as well as roads, bridges, pipelines, dams, etc. But an architect is charged with the basic design of a building: overall dimensions, use of space, finishes, aesthetics, placement of exits, heights of fixtures, types and intensity of lighting, windows and doors, thermal and moisture protection, etc. He then hands the design over to the engineers who work on their specialties: structural, mechanical, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, etc.

A civil engineer has no requisite training in building design.

[glockmail]

it would appear that some people have no sense of humor. Not overly surprising.

The architectural failures that you showed are indeed funny. Engineering failures, however, are rarely funny, since they usually result in death and destruction:

http://listverse.com/2007/12/04/top-10-worst-engineering-disasters/

[jimnyc]

The term is routinely abused. In my state, and probably many others, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you are licensed by the state engineering board.

I don't think anyone is going to turn in a $6 an hour gas station worker for using the term! (nor do I think anyone ever believed it as an "engineer" anyway)

[aboutime]

The term is routinely abused. In my state, and probably many others, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you are licensed by the state engineering board.


Anyone remember how Married, Stay-at-home Mom's used to call themselves....'DOMESTIC ENGINEERS'?

Tell them they need a license and enjoy sleeping on the couch, and all of your meals end up in the Dog's Bowl...if you are lucky:) !