European Christianity may soon fall.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12333#.UIWeK8VZXni

where the number of Muslims has tripled over the past 30 years. One third of all European children will be born to Muslim families by 2025.Demography is the most important symptom of exhaustion: without a cradle, you can't sustain a civilization.
To understand this historic process one has to see the number of churches converted into mosques.
In the Netherlands, more than 250 buildings where Catholics, Lutherans and Calvinists have prayed for centuries, have changed owners. Like the Fatih Camii Mosque in Amsterdam, which once was a Catholic church, the Saint Ignatius. Or the church of S. Vincentius, which was put on sale along with the benches, the crucifixes and the chandeliers. Today more than half of the Dutch population is “buitenkerkelijk”, it means free from any religious affiliation, as well as Catholics decreased by 70 percent.
Islam is now considered the “most widely practiced religion” in the Netherlands. The Oude Kerk, the oldest church in Amsterdam, built in 1309, stands solidly in the heart of downtown. Around it is the red-light district with the South American and Eastern European prostitutes knocking on the glass to attract the attention of passersby. The Neuwe Kerk, the church where the Dutch kings were crowned, is a museum. The only "church" in the city that is crowded is that of Scientology, which offers free stress tests.
4,400 church buildings remain in the Netherlands. Each week, two close their doors forever. A synagogue in The Hague was turned into the al Aqsa Mosque.
In Duisburg, Germany, the Catholic church closed six churches. In Marxloh, the only church that survives, that of St. Peter and Paul, will close at the end of 2012. In Germany 400 churches have been closed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Low birth rates among Christians, abandoning their religion and muslim aggression may soon doom most of Europe.
All this is why muslkim aggression will continue to grow until it creates an all out war. Britain and France could fall and if they do all of Europe will fall with them.

All this while we deal with a muslim in hiding destroying our nation. Allah be damned this American says ff-them all.-Tyr

[tailfins]

You seem to be letting the Europeans off the hook. They are at fault from becoming secularists with their support for abortion and devaluing parenthood. Which enemy occupies their land is irrelevant, SOME enemy is occupying their land because Europe turned their back on God. Which enemy is the wrong focus; which principles is the right focus. A right nation resists any enemy like a healthy body resists sickness.

Leviticus 26:27-33

27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; 28 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/26-28.htm)Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. 29 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/26-29.htm)And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. 30 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/26-30.htm)And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. 31 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/26-31.htm)And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. 32 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/26-32.htm)And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. 33 (http://bible.cc/leviticus/26-33.htm)And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

[Noir]

Europeans are at fault for growth in Islam because of the rise of secularism?

[tailfins]

Europeans are at fault for growth in Islam because of the rise of secularism?

It's called God's judgement. Mechanically the rise of abortion and resistance to parenthood has produced a thinning, aging population.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You seem to be letting the Europeans off the hook. They are at fault from becoming secularists with their support for abortion and devaluing parenthood. Which enemy occupies their land is irrelevant, SOME enemy is occupying their land because Europe turned their back on God. Which enemy is the wrong focus; which principles is the right focus. A right nation resists any enemy like a healthy body resists sickness.

Leviticus 26:27-33

Actually my point was to admonish them for their insane self-destruction.. Sure they turned their back on God and yes they will pay a VERY, VERY STEEP PRICE for doing so. JUST AS WE MAY FOR ALLOWING TENS OF MILLIONS BABIES TO BE MURDERED IN THE WOMB.
That 'ole wheel of justice may grind ever so exceedingly slow but it also grinds ever so exceedingly fine!!! None shall escape it , for it serves in this world and the next one as well.
They placed their faith in liberalism and socialism which is a recipe for disasteriou failure..-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Europeans are at fault for growth in Islam because of the rise of secularism?

Sure, cut down the vegetables in a garden and watch how the weeds thrive and grow. Nature abhors a vaccum.
Make yourself weaker and your enemy almost always thrives because of it.-Tyr

[Noir]

It's called God's judgement. Mechanically the rise of abortion and resistance to parenthood has produced a thinning, aging population.

So god wants this to happen?

[tailfins]

So god wants this to happen?

In the sense similar to a cop that wants to arrest a shoplifter, yes. Of course that cop would prefer that offender had not shoplifted in the first place. That may be part of why I disagree with bitterness against Muslims, it just might be the REAL God's judgement to let a false religion occupy the land. The irony is that Islam severely punishes the licentiousness that secularists love. One day they will long for Christian fundamentalists to rule the land. Think about it: Would you rather live in Tehran under Muslim authority or an Amish settlement in the US?

[Noir]

In the sense similar to a cop that wants to arrest a shoplifter, yes. Of course that cop would prefer that offender had not shoplifted in the first place. That may be part of why I disagree with bitterness against Muslims, it just might be the REAL God's judgement.

But surly Muslims are also shoplifters, no?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So god wants this to happen?

GOD GAVE MAN FREE WILL. The results of that is man will ff up and then reap the harvest from doing so.
Just as a child must learn so must man.. turn from God and what you get will be extremely unpleasant.
Man keeps repeating the same mistake over and over..
Europe chose liberalism/socialism over God, they will reap the fruits of that choice.. -Tyr

[Noir]

GOD GAVE MAN FREE WILL. The results of that is man will ff up and then reap the harvest from doing so.
Just as a child must learn so must man.. turn from God and what you get will be extremely unpleasant.
Man keeps repeating the same mistake over and over..
Europe chose liberalism/socialism over God, they will reap the fruits of that choice.. -Tyr

There is a difference in 'reaping what you sow' and 'being punishment by judgement.'

[tailfins]

But surly Muslims are also shoplifters, no?

I'm using shoplifter as a metaphor for all sin. I'm still undecided whether secularism or Islam is worse. I do respect Muslim diligence.


There is a difference in 'reaping what you sow' and 'being punishment by judgement.'

Why?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There is a difference in 'reaping what you sow' and 'being punishment by judgement.'

Not really, often they are the same.. For reaping what you sow may or may not be punishment. Sow good seeds , reap a good harvest. Sow bad seeds reap a bad harvest which will be its on punishment .-Tyr

[Dilloduck]

I guess Christians better get off their ass and reproduce and convert huh ?

[Noir]

I'm using shoplifter as a metaphor for all sin. I'm still undecided whether secularism or Islam is worse. I do respect Muslim diligence.

Yes but the metaphor fails to account for whether or not Islam is a cause, or an effect.



Why?

Linked with my above answer, reaping what you sow, in a cause based consequence, punishment for judgement is an effect based consequence.

Also its worth noting that comments about 'gods judgement' makes ya sound a lil like that dingbat westbro baptist idiots.

[tailfins]

Yes but the metaphor fails to account for whether or not Islam is a cause, or an effect.




Linked with my above answer, reaping what you sow, in a cause based consequence, punishment for judgement is an effect based consequence.

Also its worth noting that comments about 'gods judgement' makes ya sound a lil like that dingbat westbro baptist idiots.

And you sound like the anti-Islam chest thumpers. I actually put radical Islamists in the same category as Phred Phelps: It's all in how you implement it. I don't fault Phred Phelps for his beliefs; it's his actions. If he carried his signs outside of a gay bar instead of funerals, he wouldn't be a lightning rod.

[Abbey Marie]

Noir, I would think this thread title brings you great happiness.

[jafar00]

Beware the powerful WMD that is the Muslim woman's womb? Should there be a ban on wombs Tyr? ^^

[aboutime]

Beware the powerful WMD that is the Muslim woman's womb? Should there be a ban on wombs Tyr? ^^

No. Just lift the ban on Abortions. Problem solved. And Partial Birth Abortions too! No ROE V. WADE in Europe.

[Noir]

Noir, I would think this thread title brings you great happiness.

What makes me happy is people having the free will to believe in whatever they want, as long as that is covered then the actual details of what people believe are just that, details.

[aboutime]

What makes me happy is people having the free will to believe in whatever they want, as long as that is covered then the actual details of what people believe are just that, details.

Noir. If what you said is true. Perhaps you should go back and review, or re-read all of your previous posts here. Then, when you comprehend fully, what you said above.

Look in the mirror at the Liar.

[glockmail]

Its not a religious argument, but a cultural one. Mexicans are doing this in the US; it is an exact parallel.

Muslims tried it in the past and Europe fought back with the Crusades, driving them back to the Mideast. Mexicans claimed most of what became the SW United States and we drove them back across the Rio Grande. Both wars continue on but instead of more bullets they produce more babies. They find a foothold and breed their way to a majority to use the inherent goodness of a democracy against itself.

[mundame]

What makes me happy is people having the free will to believe in whatever they want, as long as that is covered then the actual details of what people believe are just that, details.


I see a big, big, big, big problem with that.

What people believe, especially with religious beliefs, is that other people should be coerced or killed into doing what they want.

Thousands of people were burned alive because they wouldn't believe Christs body and blood was eaten by everyone at every Mass. Girls of 12 were and still are forced into multiple-wife "marriages" with Muslims and Mormons, and whipped till they cooperate. Many men believe all women should have to carry to term grossly retarded babies or babies got on them by black rapists jumping out of alleys, and care for them by themselves all their childhood. Muslim men routinely, frequently, murder their daughters and wives and sisters for what they consider "religious" reasons.

I, too, think people can believe WHATEVER craziness they are pleased to believe, and I plan to do it too, but I think the crucial point is that no one should ever, ever be able to force anyone else to do what these crazy religious beliefs make them want them to do.

But that's not what the world is like. Because of religion, people commonly make horrific laws to force other people into terrible binds and torments.

This is the problem with freedom of religion: people always, always use it to coerce other people or kill them.

[Noir]

I see a big, big, big, big problem with that.

What people believe, especially with religious beliefs, is that other people should be coerced or killed into doing what they want.

Thousands of people were burned alive because they wouldn't believe Christs body and blood was eaten by everyone at every Mass. Girls of 12 were and still are forced into multiple-wife "marriages" with Muslims and Mormons, and whipped till they cooperate. Many men believe all women should have to carry to term grossly retarded babies or babies got on them by black rapists jumping out of alleys, and care for them by themselves all their childhood. Muslim men routinely, frequently, murder their daughters and wives and sisters for what they consider "religious" reasons.

I, too, think people can believe WHATEVER craziness they are pleased to believe, and I plan to do it too, but I think the crucial point is that no one should ever, ever be able to force anyone else to do what these crazy religious beliefs make them want them to do.

But that's not what the world is like. Because of religion, people commonly make horrific laws to force other people into terrible binds and torments.

This is the problem with freedom of religion: people always, always use it to coerce other people or kill them.

Be free to think whatever you want, but not do whatever you want because of your belief, simple IMO.

[Noir]

Noir. If what you said is true. Perhaps you should go back and review, or re-read all of your previous posts here. Then, when you comprehend fully, what you said above.

Look in the mirror at the Liar.

I fear it is you who should be doing the re-reading. As a secularist the most important thing we have is freedom of choice in belief.
Don't mistake asking questions / having a discussion about different philosophies or religions as forcing beliefs upon people.

[avatar4321]

I think European Christianity fell over 100 years ago.

[mundame]

Be free to think whatever you want, but not do whatever you want because of your belief, simple IMO.

It's simple to say, isn't it? Just one easy line.

Meanwhile, all over this country state legislators, all male, are trying to get women raped with transvaginal sonogram devices that no woman ever wants in such a situation. Men including some running for president would forbid birth control by women for "religious" reasons and would pass laws forcing true life disasters on raped women, disasters that would never bother these men in the least, just because of some religious ideas they happen to have that they think privileges them to destroy women's lives, women they don't even know.

I think it's crucial to stop having the organized, institutional respect for religious beliefs that makes it okay to kill people who carry Bibles into Saudi Arabia; to let all the schoolgirls caught in a terrible fire burn to death because they couldn't get to their burkas before running out of the burning building. We say it's okay! that people with religious beliefs make laws or common conventions that support those beliefs, and so very often those beliefs involve terrible, terrible harm to other people: female genital mutilation, or killing teenage girls who want to talk to a boy. So it's okay that they do these awful things, because we have "respect" for religion! That's a terrible kind of respect.

I think we should never allow religion to be actualized for ANYone other than the person, in the moment, who believes what he believes. He can believe anything about himself, and he can believe in killing the whole world if he wants, and millions do believe that, who don't agree with him ----- but he can't be allowed to do anything about it, formally by law or informally by custom. No one gets to enforce any of his beliefs on anyone ever, no matter what, no matter who.

Coercive religion being enforced onto people who want NONE of it is perhaps the biggest problem in the world.

[mundame]

I fear it is you who should be doing the re-reading. As a secularist the most important thing we have is freedom of choice in belief.
Don't mistake asking questions / having a discussion about different philosophies or religions as forcing beliefs upon people.


As you are a secularist, I see I am preaching to the choir. I see no problem with people believing ANYthing including that they wish lots of people would be burned at the stake -------------

As long as a rigidly secular society never lets them make any headway on that.

[aboutime]

I fear it is you who should be doing the re-reading. As a secularist the most important thing we have is freedom of choice in belief.
Don't mistake asking questions / having a discussion about different philosophies or religions as forcing beliefs upon people.



Noir. Thanks for confirming what I thought about you. Nothing more needs to be said.

[Abbey Marie]

What makes me happy is people having the free will to believe in whatever they want, as long as that is covered then the actual details of what people believe are just that, details.

That sounds all good, but I don't think this jibes with your constant attacks on the details of Christianity.

[Noir]

That sounds all good, but I don't think this jibes with your constant attacks on the details of Christianity.

I jibe at all religions when i get the chance, that doesn't mean the people who believe whatever they do should be forced to believe something else.

[aboutime]

That sounds all good, but I don't think this jibes with your constant attacks on the details of Christianity.



Abbey. Noir is now under the impression that...Only Noir is able, or permitted to decide such World-Wide things.

Actually. People like Noir are experiencing ORGASM'S over such things because people like Noir have only one purpose in life. And that is to share the anger, hatred, misery, and stupidity fairly...Like an Obama Puppet in many respects.

The more people suffer. The happier people like Noir become. Thus, the endless Orgasm that makes them drool openly. Much like a German tyrant did during WWII, as he authorized the terror, and deaths of millions....all of whom MADE HIM HAPPY...all the way to his own Suicide.

[Abbey Marie]

I jibe at all religions when i get the chance, that doesn't mean the people who believe whatever they do should be forced to believe something else.

Jibe means = aligns with, in harmony with.


We've discussed this before. Was it you who claimed you go after non-Christian religions on other sites? In any event, you doing so here is practically non-existent, compared to your posts against Christianity.

And does nothing to defend your claim that you don't care about the details of religion.

[aboutime]

Jibe means = aligns with, in harmony with.


We've discussed this before. Was it you who claimed you go after non-Christian religions on other sites? In any event, you doing so here is practically non-existent, compared to your posts against Christianity.

And does nothing to defend your claim that you don't care about the details of religion.



Abbey. See how Proud Noir is to be recognized for his hatred. Making light of the word jibe, in his case. Is nothing less than his pure hatred, woven into stupidity.

[Noir]

Jibe means = aligns with, in harmony with.


We've discussed this before. Was it you who claimed you go after non-Christian religions on other sites? In any event, you doing so here is practically non-existent, compared to your posts against Christianity.

And does nothing to defend your claim that you don't care about the details of religion.

Jibe also means to taunt or jeer.

and yeah i use to when i was at uni, infact i remember making a topic (because you'd brought it up) that included messages i'd received from someone saying i only attacked Muslims etc, as well as links to froums (that i have since been banned from) like islamicawakening, turntoislam and others.

In any case - Details are interesting to discuss and you can learn a lot from them. A great example over the past week has been Mormonism, heck, some of the questions i have asked have lead to a Mormon discovering more about his religion!

In summery - Someone is free to believe whatever they want, *that* is the most important thing.
All the rest, the 'details' can be debated, argued, learned, and forgotten again from now ad finitum.
But something that can *not* be argued, ever, is whether or not someone has the right to private beliefs.
Because there is no arguemnt there, yes they do.

[glockmail]

Jibe also means to taunt or jeer.

... No that's "jive", dummy. :slap:

[Noir]

No that's "jive", dummy. :slap:

No, a jive is a dance.
Jibe, from the french giber, means to taunt etc.

[mundame]

I think European Christianity fell over 100 years ago.

You do? With the God Is Dead stuff from Nietzsche?


I don't agree with that timing. I think European Christianity suffered from the Enlightenment in the 18th century. That is what secularism developed from, of course.


But I think Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular has REALLY taken a body blow from all the grotesque child abuse scandals --- worldwide.

Someone pointed out on another forum, however, that the Catholic Church survived getting split in half when the Eastern Catholics split off; the Antipopes and the Babylonian Captivity; it survived widespread medieval heresy and the terrible and hated Inquisition it initiated to deal with that; and finally it even survived the Reformation, when it lost yet another half of its control of European religion.

So it will probably survive the apparently nonstop pedophilia of so many priests and the anger of the public about that. It is this that has encouraged secularism, I think. Well, the pedophilia and the world wars. The wars in Europe seem to have coincided with a lot of people giving up on Christianity.

Anyhow, that's the timeline I see.

[mundame]

No, a jive is a dance.
Jibe, from the french giber, means to taunt etc.

Gibe, right? You CAN spell it either way, according to Merriam-Webster but it is usually spelled with a "g."

Jib; gaol or jail; jig or gig; jive, gibe --- those g's and j's!

[Noir]

I think European Christianity fell over 100 years ago.

I guess it depends more country to country...like it was still considered important enough in my country for two groups of Christians to shoot, bomb, and otherwise imaginatively murder each other as little as 15 years ago.

[mundame]

But something that can *not* be argued, ever, is whether or not someone has the right to private beliefs.
Because there is no arguemnt there, yes they do.


Are you sure? What is a "right"?

I would say you only have a right to what you are able to do, allowed to do, don't get caught doing, like that.

For instance, none of us have a right to life. Because we all die. So much for "rights."

In many periods of history and places now people have gone through a lot of trouble to make "windows into men's souls" and pick out what exactly they believe so they can be executed for it. Used to be the Christians were into that, now it's the Muslims more.


Purity of belief, that's the ticket.

Then if they are heretics, kill them all, God will know his own. (Simon de Montfort)

[avatar4321]

You do? With the God Is Dead stuff from Nietzsche?


I don't agree with that timing. I think European Christianity suffered from the Enlightenment in the 18th century. That is what secularism developed from, of course.


But I think Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular has REALLY taken a body blow from all the grotesque child abuse scandals --- worldwide.

Someone pointed out on another forum, however, that the Catholic Church survived getting split in half when the Eastern Catholics split off; the Antipopes and the Babylonian Captivity; it survived widespread medieval heresy and the terrible and hated Inquisition it initiated to deal with that; and finally it even survived the Reformation, when it lost yet another half of its control of European religion.

So it will probably survive the apparently nonstop pedophilia of so many priests and the anger of the public about that. It is this that has encouraged secularism, I think. Well, the pedophilia and the world wars. The wars in Europe seem to have coincided with a lot of people giving up on Christianity.

Anyhow, that's the timeline I see.

Christianity has not been the force it could be in Europe since World War 1.

I would love to see them turn back to Christ. Heck, Id be happy if those who professed Christ lived according to their faith, but unfortunately, that group of individuals is not nearly as strong as it was say two hundred years ago.

[Abbey Marie]

Jibe also means to taunt or jeer.

and yeah i use to when i was at uni, infact i remember making a topic (because you'd brought it up) that included messages i'd received from someone saying i only attacked Muslims etc, as well as links to froums (that i have since been banned from) like islamicawakening, turntoislam and others.

In any case - Details are interesting to discuss and you can learn a lot from them. A great example over the past week has been Mormonism, heck, some of the questions i have asked have lead to a Mormon discovering more about his religion!

In summery - Someone is free to believe whatever they want, *that* is the most important thing.
All the rest, the 'details' can be debated, argued, learned, and forgotten again from now ad finitum.
But something that can *not* be argued, ever, is whether or not someone has the right to private beliefs.
Because there is no arguemnt there, yes they do.

Not in the sentence I wrote. Wouldn't make sense.

[Robert A Whit]

It's called God's judgement. Mechanically the rise of abortion and resistance to parenthood has produced a thinning, aging population.

Steyn uses math to prove the rise of the Muslims who are taking over countries using not a lot more than hordes of babies. And nations are aging.

Let's look at the raw figure to keep a population stable. two point one, 2.1 children per couple will hold the population level.

So, what does Canada have? 1.48 The USA is right at 2.1, the right number.
Europe as a whole has 1.38, Japan 1.32 and Russia 1.14. And Muslims replace the population. So what is their rate of reproduction, their breeding factor?

Astoundingly it is far higher than ours is. Afghanistan for instance is about 7.5 per couple.

We have to name a country then name it's rate but where you find Muslims, they out perform Europe and America's figures for child birth.

What do you suppose those children are going to learn?

Hmmmm?

[Noir]

Not in the sentence I wrote. Wouldn't make sense.

Yes i know.
And I used jibe in a different sense, otherwise what I said wouldn't make sense (:

[glockmail]

No, a jive is a dance.
Jibe, from the french giber, means to taunt etc. Then you spelled it wrong.

[tailfins]

Yes but the metaphor fails to account for whether or not Islam is a cause, or an effect.




Linked with my above answer, reaping what you sow, in a cause based consequence, punishment for judgement is an effect based consequence.

Also its worth noting that comments about 'gods judgement' makes ya sound a lil like that dingbat westbro baptist idiots.

If you actually want your question answered, don't include a put-down. It's an interesting question whether Islam is a cause or effect. That may underline why there is a difference of opinion between me and the hard core anti-Islamists. In my book error is error and you correct error by re-dedicating adherence to right principles. For the US that means re-dedication to our founding principles and Christian principles.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I guess Christians better get off their ass and reproduce and convert huh ?

Convert to what? Or would that be convert who? Clarify, as both are possibilities because you did not post enough info..-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Steyn uses math to prove the rise of the Muslims who are taking over countries using not a lot more than hordes of babies. And nations are aging.

Let's look at the raw figure to keep a population stable. two point one, 2.1 children per couple will hold the population level.

So, what does Canada have? 1.48 The USA is right at 2.1, the right number.
Europe as a whole has 1.38, Japan 1.32 and Russia 1.14. And Muslims replace the population. So what is their rate of reproduction, their breeding factor?

Astoundingly it is far higher than ours is. Afghanistan for instance is about 7.5 per couple.

We have to name a country then name it's rate but where you find Muslims, they out perform Europe and America's figures for child birth.

What do you suppose those children are going to learn?

Hmmmm?

Yes, Islam teaches to wage total war against infidels. They are taught to birth as many Jihadist warriors as their time on earth allows! We in the Western World are not openly given knowledge of this but in their religious centers it is taught and having lots and lots of sex isnt exactly a punishment is it ? Its also why they are allowed to have many wives..
They practice total war! Americans had better wake up or we will find ourselves in the same sad state as is Britain right now! We had better turn back to Christianity, stop the damn abortions and stop Islam . We do not we just doomed ourselves and our children to murderous deaths and slavery!
Europe is very close to finding that out!..--Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Convert to what? Or would that be convert who? Clarify, as both are possibilities because you did not post enough info..-Tyr

Convert non Christians to Christians. It'd be sorta stupid for Christians to convert to Islam if Christians wanna be in control.
Odds aren't looking good right now but Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world anyway.

[Noir]

Then you spelled it wrong.

Dear blesses,
The spelling can be either jibe or gibe, more commonly jibe.
Is this going anywhere? I attest suggest you google the word before trying to tell me it was the 'wrong' one, again, again.

[mundame]

Steyn uses math to prove the rise of the Muslims who are taking over countries using not a lot more than hordes of babies. And nations are aging.




Mark Steyn is such a fun writer -- dramatic and charming. What book is that math from, if it's not an article? I would be interested in reading it. Though I know he writes a lot of right-wing articles, for papers like Investors Business Daily.

[mundame]

If you actually want your question answered, don't include a put-down.

I may need to requote this excellent line over and over on forums --- it's basic to my point of view these days.

Why talk to enemies? There is just no point.

In fact, I'm going to put it in my Quotes file right now so I won't forget the wording.

Thank you, tailfins.

[mundame]

I guess it depends more country to country...like it was still considered important enough in my country for two groups of Christians to shoot, bomb, and otherwise imaginatively murder each other as little as 15 years ago.

But wait ------

Are the Irish Troubles really about RELIGION?? Per se?

Often religion serves as a marker for ethnic identity, and then the wars become who gets the territory and resources: usual war reasons. The Irish Troubles are about who gets to control the whole island Ireland, right? The (Catholic) Irish or the (Protestant) English-ruled or associated Northern Irish.

Same deal to some extent with Muslims: they do have many repugnant and aggressive religious habits, for sure, but the MAIN problem is that they are invading or encroaching in vast numbers, much as they took over so much of Europe in the 7th--8th century and later, though they used troops more then. The Latin Americans are also encroaching and moving north in vast numbers, and we don't like them, either, but they aren't Muslims.

So I think sometimes people confuse hating people because of their religion when in fact a good reason to hate them is that they are trying very hard to take over the territory and government of the whole country! And that is certainly going on over the whole world now. It's a big problem. But probably not strictly a religious problem.

[Noir]

If you actually want your question answered, don't include a put-down. It's an interesting question whether Islam is a cause or effect. That may underline why there is a difference of opinion between me and the hard core anti-Islamists. In my book error is error and you correct error by re-dedicating adherence to right principles. For the US that means re-dedication to our founding principles and Christian principles.

If it hurts your feelings - Man up.
As soon as people start saying 'x is judgement for y' they are on a comparable scale with that church, which of course should be considered an insult.

In any case, your argument is beyond convoluted, so try and work it out, but like a change in immigration policy would do much more than Christian principles.

[mundame]

As soon as people start saying 'x is judgement for y' they are on a comparable scale with that church...

If you believe people should get to think whatever they want, I don't see why that's a problem for you.

People can believe X is God's Judgement on Women Having Sex or Y is God's Judgement on Openly Acknowledging Homosexuality, and why shouldn't they? It does no harm ---- unless they try to change the laws to harm people!!

People can say catastrophes are God's Judgement against A thru Z, but if they don't picket veteran's funerals and do other obnoxious things, who cares? It's free speech.

Free speech means you get to say whatever nonsense you like without the government putting you in jail or burning you alive. Free speech does NOT mean you get to change the laws so that everyone you don't like gets punished till they pretend to believe like you do or they spend 20 years in jail!

[Noir]

If you believe people should get to think whatever they want, I don't see why that's a problem for you.

People can believe X is God's Judgement on Women Having Sex or Y is God's Judgement on Openly Acknowledging Homosexuality, and why shouldn't they? It does no harm ---- unless they try to change the laws to harm people!!

People can say catastrophes are God's Judgement against A thru Z, but if they don't picket veteran's funerals and do other obnoxious things, who cares? It's free speech.

Free speech means you get to say whatever nonsense you like without the government putting you in jail or burning you alive. Free speech does NOT mean you get to change the laws so that everyone you don't like gets punished till they pretend to believe like you do or they spend 20 years in jail!

Yeah. I believe he should be free to believe whatever he wants, as he does.
But I'm also free to call him an idiot for believing such nonsense.

You can respect the right of someone to we views, without respecting their views. Surely that's a given =/

[Abbey Marie]

If you believe people should get to think whatever they want, I don't see why that's a problem for you.

People can believe X is God's Judgement on Women Having Sex or Y is God's Judgement on Openly Acknowledging Homosexuality, and why shouldn't they? It does no harm ---- unless they try to change the laws to harm people!!

People can say catastrophes are God's Judgement against A thru Z, but if they don't picket veteran's funerals and do other obnoxious things, who cares? It's free speech.

Free speech means you get to say whatever nonsense you like without the government putting you in jail or burning you alive. Free speech does NOT mean you get to change the laws so that everyone you don't like gets punished till they pretend to believe like you do or they spend 20 years in jail!

I've yet to see the group that gets more offended over mere speech than Muslims. Cartoons, etc., all beheading-worthy.

[mundame]

Yeah. I believe he should be free to believe whatever he wants, as he does.
But I'm also free to call him an idiot for believing such nonsense.

You can respect the right of someone to we views, without respecting their views. Surely that's a given =/


True --- I agree with you. Calling someone an idiot for his views is also free speech.

It's not friendly, of course, but it is government protected.

Here's a quote I can't get out of my head lately --- I don't think it's correct, though, for modern times in civilized countries ---


Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. Martyrdom is the test. (http://www.debatepolicy.com/quotes/quotes/s/samueljohn157371.html)

Samuel Johnson (http://www.debatepolicy.com/quotes/authors/s/samuel_johnson.html)
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/knock.html#XQYzS4DlvpwgtPxz.99

[Noir]

But wait ------

Are the Irish Troubles really about RELIGION?? Per se?

Often religion serves as a marker for ethnic identity, and then the wars become who gets the territory and resources: usual war reasons. The Irish Troubles are about who gets to control the whole island Ireland, right? The (Catholic) Irish or the (Protestant) English-ruled or associated Northern Irish..

I'm in work and for have time to go into a looong post, but in short, the 'was it religion or nationalism' etc misses the point, because bother were one and the same. ie the Republicans wanted nationalism for a Catholic state.

Nowadays they're not really killing for the notion of nationalism etc, they just want some more Protestants/Catholics dead.

[mundame]

I've yet to see the group that gets more offended over mere speech than Muslims. Cartoons, etc., all beheading-worthy.


! Good point. No, Muslims definitely missed the whole Enlightenment.

[Noir]

I've yet to see the group that gets more offended over mere speech than Muslims. Cartoons, etc., all beheading-worthy.

Exactly.
Here is a group that expects use to find cartoons offensive, and beheadings as acceptable.
The human condition is an odd one indeed.

[glockmail]

Dear blesses,
The spelling can be either jibe or gibe, more commonly jibe.
Is this going anywhere? I attest suggest you google the word before trying to tell me it was the 'wrong' one, again, again.

Do you attest or suggest? Those don't mean the same thing either. :slap:

[aboutime]

I've yet to see the group that gets more offended over mere speech than Muslims. Cartoons, etc., all beheading-worthy.


Abbey. In your haste to let us know. I suspect. It was just an oversight here. But you managed to not include a Home Grown group here in the United States that seems to become much more offended over mere free speech, than Muslims. And that group is the same group that created, and now clings to Political Correctness.

Of course. I am speaking of the perpetually, miserable, often fully under-educated Liberal wing of politics we know as DEMOCRATS.

[Noir]

Do you attest or suggest? Those don't mean the same thing either. :slap:

Attest should of been 'at least'. Autocorrect.

[mundame]

Attest should of been 'at least'. Autocorrect.

You may at some point wish to turn that off; it's easy to find. Autocorrect is serving you poorly in a number of posts. Your own writing is better than the computer's speculation.

[mundame]

There was a relevant cartoon in this week's New Yorker ---


A man is tied to a stake with wood stacked around him. Another man is standing there with a lighted torch, and he says -- "You do have some good points, though."

[Noir]

You may at some point wish to turn that off; it's easy to find. Autocorrect is serving you poorly in a number of posts. Your own writing is better than the computer's speculation.

I can't turn it off.
Mixing autocorrect and dyslexia/word blindness leads to a lot of errors lol.

Scratch that - you *can* turn it off, idk when this feature came in, but yay!

[mundame]

Okay. Carry on. :cool:

[Drummond]

Adding a comment or 2 of my own ...

Secularism largely dominates both the UK and mainland Europe.

Now .. secularism, that's to say, a society run along that 'principle', is one where - in theory - religion is separated out from societal direction. Religions are tolerated, but, they aren't dominant forces. They don't of themselves guide society.

That's the theory ..

The practice, though, turns out notably differently.

There are two reasons why that's so. One, because Socialists, to be 'politically correct', both encourage and arrange very loose immigration regimes, because, as they'd try to impress upon people, it's 'enlightened' to let mass immigration occur, i.e, it's 'racist' NOT TO. So, an influx of people by the hundreds of thousands occurs, but, are they CHRISTIANS ? Invariably not. A variety of other religions are represented by that influx, but, sure enough, it's Muslims who in particular spread to country after country. And in true Leftie fashion, these bastions of multiculturalism then work to defer their guts out to see to it that the 'minority' religions strengthen their hold .. not because any one religion is favoured, but because NOT to is .. you guessed it .. 'racist'.

Hello, strangers .. goodbye indigenous culture and belief-systems, over time ...

But that just accounts for one factor. The other is this .. Islam is a highly AGGRESSIVE religion. Its practitioners are not at all interested in integration. No, they form their communities, effectively 'terraforming' the areas they move into. Goodbye churches, hello mosques aplenty. Lefties in 'enlightened' fashion, and in a display of not wanting Christian values to predominate, are happy to see to it that 'a more level playing field' comes about. BUT .. this deferral doesn't take into account the aggressiveness of Islam. More and more communities form, excluding any influence that isn't Islamic. More mosques appear. Pressure groups form, make representations, then insist upon more and more deferential treatment.

And it never stops.

Islam pursues conquest of foreign lands, until eventually they become less foreign to them. In the name of 'religious equality', a wholly UNEQUAL reality forms ...

... because Islam doesn't want equality. It wants dominion.

You get the likes of Anjem Choudary pushing and pushing for his beliefs. He makes no secret of the fact that he wants universal Sharia Law, and the overthrow of democratic systems. He's preached as much on American TV shows. His 'Islam4uk' was tolerated in true multicultural fashion by our Lefties, until one day they wanted to march through THE English town most associated with reverential displays of remembrance of our returning war dead, to protest at the British military presence, as it then was, in Afghanistan ... to effectively spit in the faces of those mourning those deaths. Then .. and ONLY then, when Islam4uk's real nature couldn't be disguised, COULDN'T be excused, did the Government ban them.

But Islamism continues to grow. Its encroachment is strengthening .. even despite the broadly SECULAR environment. If Islam weren't aggressive, determined to conquer, we wouldn't see it in such strength, nor would we see its failure to integrate. BUT THE TRUTH TELLS A DIFFERENT STORY.

Islam rides on the back of secularism. It exploits it. Its sheer arrogance negates the neutrality secularism might otherwise offer. And, we're ALL DUPED.

[Noir]

Adding a comment or 2 of my own ...

Secularism largely dominates both the UK and mainland Europe.

Now .. secularism, that's to say, a society run along that 'principle', is one where - in theory - religion is separated out from societal direction. Religions are tolerated, but, they aren't dominant forces. They don't of themselves guide society.

That's the theory ..

I dont see it like that.
I think we like to think we are a very secular society. But in really we are very much tied to religion.

The most obvious display of this is primary and secondary school. Children are taught the Christian religion as fact, while they learn to read and write etc. (One could almost refer to it as the 4 R's..)

And more especially in Northern Ireland, as i am experiencing right now, your job prospects can suffer because you aren't the right type of Christian (Im sure you can imagine how infuriating that is with me being an atheist). Are society has and inbuilt Christian basis, of that there is no doubt, a secular society would have no such bias.

[aboutime]

I dont see it like that.
I think we like to think we are a very secular society. But in really we are very much tied to religion.

The most obvious display of this is primary and secondary school. Children are taught the Christian religion as fact, while they learn to read and write etc. (One could almost refer to it as the 4 R's..)

And more especially in Northern Ireland, as i am experiencing right now, your job prospects can suffer because you aren't the right type of Christian (Im sure you can imagine how infuriating that is with me being an atheist). Are society has and inbuilt Christian basis, of that there is no doubt, a secular society would have no such bias.



Noir. Blaming others because you are an Atheist is just weak, and cowardly. Who decided that you were an Atheist?

You should be blaming them for making you so biased against something, nearly the entire World Population follows. But for some reason. You refuse, or have been told to accept any kind of religious thinking. So. Why blame everyone else if your life isn't going as you think it should???

[jafar00]

Exactly.
Here is a group that expects use to find cartoons offensive, and beheadings as acceptable.
The human condition is an odd one indeed.

The US also executes criminals. Jus' sayin'

[jimnyc]

The US also executes criminals. Jus' sayin'

Except the USA executes long after appeals are exhausted and when there is an outstanding amount of proof against the accused - not because they drew a cartoon or tried to leave the religion. That's animals.

[mundame]

I your job prospects can suffer because you aren't the right type of Christian (Im sure you can imagine how infuriating that is with me being an atheist). .


Suggestion: shut up about being an atheist!! Not here, but in society. It's no one's business what you are and you owe them no explanation that will disadvantage you. Most young people are atheist, and this is totally normal whatever happens later. So you could admit to being "ethnically" whatever you are and keep quiet about your beliefs ---- I study heresy and people have been doing this since 1040, and probably a lot longer, but that's as far back as I've gone so far. So it's perfectly all right not to tell, and probably a lot better for you.

No point in getting both sides against you if you can avoid it.

[Drummond]

I dont see it like that.
I think we like to think we are a very secular society. But in really we are very much tied to religion.

The most obvious display of this is primary and secondary school. Children are taught the Christian religion as fact, while they learn to read and write etc. (One could almost refer to it as the 4 R's..)

And more especially in Northern Ireland, as i am experiencing right now, your job prospects can suffer because you aren't the right type of Christian (Im sure you can imagine how infuriating that is with me being an atheist). Are society has and inbuilt Christian basis, of that there is no doubt, a secular society would have no such bias.

I think Northern Ireland is different, Noir, because there's a greater sectarianism there, which in turn keeps Christian sensibilities - to the extent this can be said to be true - more alive.

You make a fair point, I suppose, in that Christianity is taught in British schools. However .. IS it taught in such a way as to totally depart from secularism ? I really don't think so.

And you're wholly ignoring the part that Muslim education is playing these days. Check this article out, originating, remarkably, from the Leftie Guardian ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/nov/28/muslim-schools-growth


Demand for Islamic education in England is growing fast and schools – official and unofficial – are springing up to meet it. Now some local authorities are concerned that there is insufficient regulation.

At about eight o'clock on a dull autumnal morning, a mother is preparing breakfast for her young son in the kitchen of an unassuming private house on a little modern estate in Leicester. The doorbell rings. Outside, a series of people carriers and estate cars are rolling up one by one; out of them tumbling a succession of children in twos and threes, all in traditional Islamic dress.

By 8.30, 26 children – some of them only just old enough for school, some almost grown – are sitting in tight rows on the floor of a little inner room, reciting morning prayers in Arabic and in English. By 9.30, the conservatory has become an infant classroom, the dining room has been taken over by the juniors and in the living room, year 7 and 8 girls are preparing to spread their geography projects across the laminate flooring.

By now, the mother has vanished – she doesn't want her name or address to be used, she says, because already families are turning up at odd hours asking to look round the "school" – and Fatima D'Oyen, director of Manara Education, has taken charge with her small team of staff.

There's no doubting that the Manara academy is a most unusual educational institution. But it's also part of a national trend. Although the number of Islamic schools (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/schools) is still small – around 140 at the latest count, just 12 of them state-funded – it is growing fast. About 60 of these schools have opened in the last 10 years; several in the last couple of months. And the demand from parents seems to be huge – one school in Birmingham recently attracted 1,500 applications for just 60 places. At least five Islamic schools have recently applied to be free schools, although so far only one has been approved.

Manara is one of two Islamic schools that have opened in Leicester this autumn – although in its case, the word "school" can only be used loosely. Manara operates just three mornings a week, and its pupils are registered as home-educated.

Because Manara operates on a part-time basis, it does not need to register with the Department for Education as a school. But the rise in the number of Islamic schools has raised some concerns. Leicester City Council has called for national guidance to ensure that parents who send their children to "flexi schools" like Manara can be sure the staff have criminal record checks and their buildings are safe. And in some areas, full-time schools have opened without registration – meaning that there are no checks on the suitability of their staff or the quality of their curriculum.

D'Oyen aims to open a fully registered, full-time school next year. Until recently, she was the headteacher of another Muslim school in Leicester, but left earlier this year – and decided to start her own school. She quickly found that the formalities required were much more cumbersome than in her native US, where she had previously helped to set up an Islamic school in New Mexico.

"The Department for Education wanted everything done six months in advance; they wanted a plan of the building, they wanted to come and inspect," she says. "They wanted to see our curriculum plans in detail – a lot of rigmarole. And we wanted to be open in September. So legally we are a private tuition service – like a supplementary school, but during the day."

Despite its unconventional setting – D'Oyen was invited to tea with the family who live here and seized on the idea that the house could be turned into a school – the children seem contented and the curriculum varied. Manara is experimenting with Montessori teaching methods, and religious education includes moral and personal discussions as well as study of the Qur'an. The time spent by many children learning the Qur'an at madrasas – often 10 hours a week or more – can rob them of their childhood, D'Oyen believes, and she hopes to provide a more humane alternative. The pupils will learn about gardening and alternative technologies, and have access to the garden, which is used as an outdoor classroom.

"We'd like to teach a long morning, which would include some Islamic education, and then in the afternoons children would have more choice of activities – arts, crafts, PE," D'Oyen says. "We want the children to have creativity in their lives, and to follow some of their interests."

She foresees no problems at all in finding pupils – another Islamic school in Leicester already has five applications for each place. The demand from Muslim parents for an education outside the mainstream is growing, she says.

There is more to read, but I take it you get the point. Muslim teaching is on the rise, more such establishments are opening, there's even a drive to circumvent regulation where that regulation might be an impediment. And .. note even the concern that no proper checks on criminal records might, in some instances, be being carried out.

As for the nature of some of these schools .. see ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1150753/Some-Muslim-schools-make-children-despise-West-Ban-cricket-Harry-Potter.html


Some Islamic schools are promoting fundamentalist views and encouraging children to despise Western society, a report warns.

An investigation by the Civitas social policy think-tank found websites of some of the UK’s 166 Muslim schools are spreading extreme teachings, while a handful had links to sites promoting jihad, or holy war.

Examples include web forums forbidding Muslims from reading Harry Potter books, playing chess or cricket and listening to Western music.

The Civitas report, entitled Music, Chess and Other Sins, claims Ofsted inspectors are incapable of scrutinising Muslim faith schools properly, and demands an inquiry by MPs.

Many of the websites featured in the report were shut down or edited in the hours before it was published.

Islamic schools educate thousands of Muslim children. Most operate in the private sector although increasing numbers are seeking state funding.

Examples include the website of the Madani Girls’ School in East London which stated: ‘Our children are exposed to a culture that is in opposition with almost everything Islam stands for.

‘If we oppose the lifestyle of the West then it does not seem sensible that the teachers and the system which represents that lifestyle should educate our children.’

As I've said, and as this amply illustrates, Noir, Islam and its practitioners act arrogantly against any teachings, any standards, not their own. There are Muslim schools today which act to indoctrinate Muslim children to hate Western values - FACT.

[Noir]

Noir. Blaming others because you are an Atheist is just weak, and cowardly. Who decided that you were an Atheist?

You should be blaming them for making you so biased against something, nearly the entire World Population follows. But for some reason. You refuse, or have been told to accept any kind of religious thinking. So. Why blame everyone else if your life isn't going as you think it should???

Two things.

Firstly, IMO, if you are applying for a job that has nothing to do with religion, then your religion (or lack of) should not be a requirement, help, or hindrance.

Secondly, because my country is a mess, i am (for the purposes of job applications) considered a Christian Protestant. Which is the group they're least likely to hire.

So, here i am, an Atheist, applying for public sector jobs, who must identify as a protestant, when the prospective employer states on the job applications that they are most interested in hiring Catholics. You think I'm to blame for that?

[mundame]

Secondly, because my country is a mess, i am (for the purposes of job applications) considered a Christian Protestant. Which is the group they're least likely to hire.

So, here i am, an Atheist, applying for public sector jobs, who must identify as a protestant, when the prospective employer states on the job applications that they are most interested in hiring Catholics. You think I'm to blame for that?


It's not about religion.

It's about ethnic identification. They don't care what you BELIEVE, they care what you ARE.

[Noir]

It's not about religion.

It's about ethnic identification. They don't care what you BELIEVE, they care what you ARE.

And I am not a protestant, any more than i am a catholic, a jew, or a double decker bus.

[Drummond]

Two things.

Firstly, IMO, if you are applying for a job that has nothing to do with religion, then your religion (or lack of) should not be a requirement, help, or hindrance.

Secondly, because my country is a mess, i am (for the purposes of job applications) considered a Christian Protestant. Which is the group they're least likely to hire.

So, here i am, an Atheist, applying for public sector jobs, who must identify as a protestant, when the prospective employer states on the job applications that they are most interested in hiring Catholics. You think I'm to blame for that?

If what you say is true, Noir, then Northern Ireland must differ from the rest of the UK more than I'd thought.

http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/employment/discrimination/8504.html


It is against the law for an employer to discriminate against you because of your religion or belief. You are also protected against harassment or victimisation at work. Find out about your rights and what you can do if you are treated unfairly because of your religion or belief.Protection from discrimination

There is no specific list that sets out what religion or belief discrimination is. The law defines it as any religion, religious or philosophical belief. This includes all major religions, as well as less widely practised ones.

You are also protected against discrimination if you do not follow any religion or belief, and your employer discriminates against you because of this. Political beliefs are not counted as a religion or belief.

If you are not sure what counts as a religion or belief under the law, you should seek further advice. In some cases you can apply to an Employment Tribunal to decide if you are being discriminated against for your religion or belief (or lack of religion or belief).

You are protected against discrimination through any recruitment process and in employment, including your terms and conditions of employment, pay, status, training, promotion and transfer opportunities, redundancy and dismissal and benefits such as pensions.

Employment practices and religion or belief

Giving information to your employer

You do not have to give information to your employer about your religious beliefs ....

Doesn't it follow from all this that, whether OR NOT you have a religious belief, the employer isn't legally entitled either to be judgmental on such grounds, to act on or pursue such thinking ? The whole question of what beliefs you may or may not hold is deemed, legally, totally irrelevant.

[mundame]

And I am not a protestant, any more than i am a catholic, a jew, or a double decker bus.

I thought you said you were obliged to identify as a protestant, ethnically?

[Noir]

If what you say is true, Noir, then Northern Ireland must differ from the rest of the UK more than I'd thought.

http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/employment/discrimination/8504.html

Doesn't it follow from all this that, whether OR NOT you have a religious belief, the employer isn't legally entitled either to be judgmental on such grounds, to act on or pursue such thinking ? The whole question of what beliefs you may or may not hold is deemed, legally, totally irrelevant.

^You'd think so.

But they're allowed to be as blatant as they like in their discrimination.

You find notes like this at the bottom of countless job applications (i think this one was either the Police service, or Prison service)

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/jonathan-mcc/77ee1052.jpg

[Noir]

I thought you said you were obliged to identify as a protestant, ethnically?

I have to identify as 'coming from a protest community'
Even though that literally means nothing by a way of describing me.

[mundame]

Wow.

And we think WE have problems with too much affirmative action!

Very interesting, Noir.

[glockmail]

Attest should of been 'at least'. Autocorrect. You can't even take responsibility for your grammatical errors?

[aboutime]

You can't even take responsibility for your grammatical errors?



glockmail. There's a really easy explanation for that. He thinks he is Obama. And we all know. Obama never takes responsibility for anything. Kinda "Birds of a Feather" sort of image.

[Drummond]

^You'd think so.

But they're allowed to be as blatant as they like in their discrimination.

You find notes like this at the bottom of countless job applications (i think this one was either the Police service, or Prison service)

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/jonathan-mcc/77ee1052.jpg

Yes, Noir, I found it ...

http://www.psni.police.uk/joint_advert_13_6_11.pdf

... mentioned in just that way, as this PDF document shows. Noir is correct - this is one time when we must agree.

And there it is, folks .. something of a variation on the Leftie bog-standard practice of trying to exercise what they've been pleased to call 'positive discrimination' for DECADES. More usually, it's to increase the quota of women to equal men. But, here ...

Such is the way these things are politically manipulated.

[jafar00]

As I've said, and as this amply illustrates, Noir, Islam and its practitioners act arrogantly against any teachings, any standards, not their own. There are Muslim schools today which act to indoctrinate Muslim children to hate Western values - FACT.

Of course, we are the bad parents who want to limit our children from accessing inappropriate western ideals?

NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hkwtZ29uFc

also NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTFwQP86BRs

[glockmail]

glockmail. There's a really easy explanation for that. He thinks he is Obama. And we all know. Obama never takes responsibility for anything. Kinda "Birds of a Feather" sort of image.
I don't think he's THAT delusional. But still, it is a Liberal trait to not want to take personal responsibility. Noir has that in common with The Obama.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Of course, we are the bad parents who want to limit our children from accessing inappropriate western ideals?

]

Yes, like freedom of speech and tolerance for other religions. Even tolerance for gays, right? Islam condemns all that right?-Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Yes, like freedom of speech and tolerance for other religions. Even tolerance for gays, right? Islam condemns all that right?-Tyr

As do many Christians.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

As do many Christians.

Sure some Christians do especially about the gays primarily. However Islam/Koran teaches it , wheras the bible does not teach hatred and use of violence against other religions or even against gays.
You tried to broadstroke it and that doesnt fit amigo.


By the way, where is my thanks for posting this thread to cheer you up? I thought the title alone would send you into fits of happiness..-;)
And I do not even get a thank you....-Tyr

[Dilloduck]

Sure some Christians do especially about the gays primarily. However Islam/Koran teaches it , wheras the bible does not teach hatred and use of violence against other religions or even against gays.
You tried to broadstroke it and that doesnt fit amigo.


By the way, where is my thanks for posting this thread to cheer you up? I thought the title alone would send you into fits of happiness..-;)
And I do not even get a thank you....-Tyr

I don't treat " thanks you's" as if they are entitlements, bro. You gotta earn em.

[tailfins]

I don't treat " thanks you's" as if they are entitlements, bro. You gotta earn em.

To honor the Democrats among us, we should offer a way to apply for free, automated "Thank Yous" for the those who are "Thank You" poor.

[Abbey Marie]

Except the USA executes long after appeals are exhausted and when there is an outstanding amount of proof against the accused - not because they drew a cartoon or tried to leave the religion. That's animals.

:clap: Nice try at making these two disparate things equal, Jafar.

[Drummond]

Of course, we are the bad parents who want to limit our children from accessing inappropriate western ideals?

NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hkwtZ29uFc

also NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTFwQP86BRs

I looked carefully, Jafar, and certain features were missing in these videos. I refer to some sort of 'Western equivalent' of ...

Suicide bombers (e.g kids with bombs strapped to them, forced to blow themselves and others to smithereens).

Planes being flown into skyscrapers.

Buses, tube trains, blown up.

Stonings to death of alleged 'adulterers'.

Honour killings.

Beheadings ...

... and the like ...

Kids attending Muslim schools are taught to hate Western values, Jafar, but what replaces them ?

I'd rather watch the kind of video you've posted, Jafar, than some graphic depiction of a victim blown to bits by a Jihadist bomber, entrails splattered everywhere, other survivors writhing in varying states of agony.

.. Wouldn't YOU ?

[Drummond]

I don't treat " thanks you's" as if they are entitlements, bro. You gotta earn em.

Tell you what. If you ever do answer my question about whether or not you're a Muslim (somehow, I doubt you ever will ..) .. I'll thank you for it.

Now, can I be any fairer than that ?

[Dilloduck]

Tell you what. If you ever do answer my question about whether or not you're a Muslim (somehow, I doubt you ever will ..) .. I'll thank you for it.

Now, can I be any fairer than that ?

If I answered you couldn't believe me anyway cuz muslim are sneaky.
Why should I care about "thank yous"?

[aboutime]

If I answered you couldn't believe me anyway cuz muslim are sneaky.
Why should I care about "thank yous"?



Dilloduck. So. You are now telling us how SNEAKY you are?

[Drummond]

If I answered you couldn't believe me anyway cuz muslim are sneaky.
Why should I care about "thank yous"?

Interesting !! Do I detect an indirect admission in that statement of yours that you ARE a Muslim ?

And I take your point about the "thank yous". I've lost count of the posts I've seen from you which haven't earned any. If you don't care about them, it's as well you don't.

[Dilloduck]

Dilloduck. So. You are now telling us how SNEAKY you are?

No I'm telling you that you can't find out if someone is a muslim or not by asking them.

[Drummond]

No I'm telling you that you can't find out if someone is a muslim or not by asking them.

You didn't refer to 'someone'. Your reference to yourself was plain ... with the words ...


If I answered you couldn't believe me anyway cuz ...

[Dilloduck]

You didn't refer to 'someone'. Your reference to yourself was plain ... with the words ...

You can't even have my name, rank or serial #. :laugh:

[Drummond]

You can't even have my name, rank or serial #. :laugh:

Not even if I, er'm, 'demanded' it ? :laugh:

[aboutime]

No I'm telling you that you can't find out if someone is a muslim or not by asking them.


Yeah. We know. You are telling us that liars never are willing to tell the truth. Because doing so would ruin your record as a liar.