Requirements to be a Christian

[jimnyc]

This had me wondering yesterday, as some seem to think there are very strict requirements to be a Christian and gain entry into heaven. I think this picture tells the story best.

http://i.imgur.com/yuk0v.jpg

[Noir]

Kinda hammers home much of what i find off putting about religions, making people think they are weak, wicked, and sick.

[jimnyc]

Kinda hammers home much of what i find off putting about religions, making people think they are weak, wicked, and sick.

That's retarded, knowing that I have admitted my faults to God and have sought forgiveness, and have allowed Christ to be my guide, makes me think I am stronger, way less wicked and healthier. How you can read about someone admitting their faults in this world and following the path of Christ, as somehow making them weak and sick, is way beyond me. Quite frankly, I would see those who refuse to acknowledge sin, refuse to acknowledge God, refuse to see that they are not perfect, refuse to acknowledge Christ as our savior - those are the people I pity and see as weak.

Absolutely amazing how you can look at someone else's religion and then tell those people that they should feel weak, wicked and sick. Maybe it would be wiser to simply not follow another persons religion if you disagree instead of continually finding new and newer ways to insult? Someone that can't find a way to let others live their lives without popping their nose in to tell them they are "wrong" in some sense seems more the definition of weak, wicked and sick to me.

[Noir]

Quite frankly, I would see those who refuse to acknowledge sin, refuse to acknowledge God, refuse to see that they are not perfect, refuse to acknowledge Christ as our savior - those are the people I pity and see as weak.


This is my point.
People who are religious are made to feel that humans are weak, sick etc, and only through god can be strong, healthy etc.

The above part I quoted shows this perfectly. If you see me as weak because i don't believe in a god, that is because of the impression you have of humans by the belief in god that you have.

[glockmail]

What's your neck size Noir, like a 13?

:lol:

[jimnyc]

This is my point.
People who are religious are made to feel that humans are weak, sick etc, and only through god can be strong, healthy etc.

The above part I quoted shows this perfectly. If you see me as weak because i don't believe in a god, that is because of the impression you have of humans by the belief in god that you have.

No one is made to feel any way at all. That's not the Bible you are reading but one person's excellent description of how they define a Christian. All humans have weaknesses, ALL of us. Some of us aren't afraid to admit it is all. This is US admitting our faults and sins and allowing our faith to make us stronger. You see it as a bad thing as you have nothing to make you stronger, you are empty inside and are convinced when life ends you spend eternity in blackness in the dirt. That's your choice, I'm sure not trying to convince you otherwise.

And we sure can be strong and healthy via good eating and working out, no one said anything different, other than you making things up. Hell, no offense, but I'd say living your life the way you do has left you weaker and less healthy. :lol:

[jimnyc]

What's your neck size Noir, like a 13?

:lol:

Noir put weight on? Started eating meat like normal people? :coffee:

[Noir]

No one is made to feel any way at all.

Its a shame you missed the talks the priests gave at our school, telling us that we were ill, but Jesus was the greatest doctor who ever lived etc etc.


]you are empty inside

There's some more of that condescending talk, so i'm weak, empty inside, and worthy of pity, anything else? ^,^

[jimnyc]

Its a shame you missed the talks the priests gave at our school, telling us that we were ill, but Jesus was the greatest doctor who ever lived etc etc.



There's some more of that condescending talk, so i'm weak, empty inside, and worthy of pity, anything else? ^,^

You say our religion does a certain thing, insulting what I posted and my faith, but "I" am the condescending one?

[Noir]

You say our religion does a certain thing, insulting what I posted and my faith, but "I" am the condescending one?

I'm just repeating what religious people say, they say that people are weak, ill, sick, in need of god etc.

If someone says "I'm weak, i need god" and i say "You're weak" they can hardly have a go at me for repeating what they said.

And ofcourse what happens is (like you did) people say 'i was empty without god, and you are without god, therefore you are empty'

[tailfins]

There's no somehow about it:

John 14:6


Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mark 16:16

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It doesn't say might or could be saved but SHALL be saved.

[Abbey Marie]

I'm just repeating what religious people say, they say that people are weak, ill, sick, in need of god etc.

If someone says "I'm weak, i need god" and i say "You're weak" they can hardly have a go at me for repeating what they said.

And ofcourse what happens is (like you did) people say 'i was empty without god, and you are without god, therefore you are empty'

Look around you, Noir. People ARE weak, ill, sick, etc. Wars, terrorism, drug-addiction, alcoholism, rape, murder, greed, envy, lust, cruelty to animals, etc. These are sicknesses of the heart and the soul. I suspect you can see it all too well.
Your obsession with Christianity belies your alleged indifference.

[Noir]

Look around you, Noir. People ARE weak, ill, sick, etc. Wars, terrorism, drug-addiction, alcoholism, rape, murder, greed, envy, lust, cruelty to animals, etc. These are sicknesses of the heart and the soul. I suspect you can see it all too well.
Your obsession with Christianity belies your alleged indifference.

And what about your average, non-raping, non-alcholholic, non-murdering human. Are they sick too?

[glockmail]

Noir put weight on? Started eating meat like normal people? :coffee:
LOL So he's a veeeee gun as well as a libtard and an atheistard?
:lol:

[tailfins]

And what about your average, non-raping, non-alcholholic, non-murdering human. Are they sick too?


Romans 3:23


For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[Noir]

Romans 3:23

That would be the bible, saying people, all people, are 'sick', yes?

[Abbey Marie]

And what about your average, non-raping, non-alcholholic, non-murdering human. Are they sick too?

Yes, Noir. Many, and I would wager, most of us, are sick at heart. And all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Christians too. Maybe Christians especially, since we know better.

And you conveniently left off your list all of the more common human failings I listed in my post.

[Noir]

Yes, Noir. Many, and I would wager, most of us, are sick at heart. And all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Christians too. Maybe Christians especially, since we know better.

And you conveniently left off your list all of the more common human failings I listed in my post.

Greed and lust et al don't make you sick, unless you take them to excess, for example, excessive lust (which would result in rape etc). If you regard lust as a sickness then everyone who is strongly attracted to their partner is sick for doing so =/

I guess its just a fundemetal difference in perspective, you see most people has being sick at heart, i don't. And i think that religions do their bit to make us feel like we are all sick at heart.

[gabosaurus]

This is my point.
People who are religious are made to feel that humans are weak, sick etc, and only through god can be strong, healthy etc.

The above part I quoted shows this perfectly. If you see me as weak because i don't believe in a god, that is because of the impression you have of humans by the belief in god that you have.

Christians are not weak, sick or oppressed. Just forgiven in the eyes of God.

The ONLY requirement to be a Christian is to confess your sins and give your life to God.

[Abbey Marie]

Greed and lust et al don't make you sick, unless you take them to excess, for example, excessive lust (which would result in rape etc). If you regard lust as a sickness then everyone who is strongly attracted to their partner is sick for doing so =/

I guess its just a fundemetal difference in perspective, you see most people has being sick at heart, i don't. And i think that religions do their bit to make us feel like we are all sick at heart.

Greed and lust by definition are excessive failings.

Noir, you need to see with your inner being, your heart, your soul, not your intellect. And it is not to say that people are always this way. We all stumble.

[KarlMarx]

This had me wondering yesterday, as some seem to think there are very strict requirements to be a Christian and gain entry into heaven. I think this picture tells the story best.



That's a popular misconception. A pastor once taught that it's as simple as "ABC"...

Accept Christ as your Lord and Savior
Believe Christ is the Son of God and came to die for your sins
Confess your sins

there... you are saved....

Not by works, but by Grace

[tailfins]

Greed and lust et al don't make you sick, unless you take them to excess, for example, excessive lust (which would result in rape etc). If you regard lust as a sickness then everyone who is strongly attracted to their partner is sick for doing so =/

I guess its just a fundemetal difference in perspective, you see most people has being sick at heart, i don't. And i think that religions do their bit to make us feel like we are all sick at heart.

If you define sickness as being closer to death ....

Romans 6:23


For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Dilloduck]

Kinda hammers home much of what i find off putting about religions, making people think they are weak, wicked, and sick.

Only weaker, more wicked and sicker than an omnipotent God. Christians are merely acknowledging their mortality.

[tailfins]

You say our religion does a certain thing, insulting what I posted and my faith, but "I" am the condescending one?

Just answer him with pure scripture:


Isaiah 55:11


So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Give him this..

John 1:12 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/John/1-12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:16 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/John/3-16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 14:6 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/John/14-6) Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
Romans 1:16 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/Romans/1-16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God to salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 3:9 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/Romans/3-9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 6:23 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/Romans/6-23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 10:9 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/Romans/10-9) That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/2-Corinthians/5-17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/Ephesians/2-8) For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/bible/Ephesians/2-9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[avatar4321]

Confessing one's sins is not enough. We need to repent and turn away from our sins. Confession is just the First (and often hardest) step in that.

This thread raises an interesting question that I've been pondering lately. What does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus Christ?

[Nell's Room]

This had me wondering yesterday, as some seem to think there are very strict requirements to be a Christian and gain entry into heaven. I think this picture tells the story best.

http://i.imgur.com/yuk0v.jpg

I like that. Whoever wrote it is probably one of those decent Christians, who doesn't judge and treats everyone as equals.

[DragonStryk72]

Requirements to be a Christian:

1. Believe in Christ and his message.
2. Keep doing number 1

[KarlMarx]

Confessing one's sins is not enough. We need to repent and turn away from our sins. Confession is just the First (and often hardest) step in that.

This thread raises an interesting question that I've been pondering lately. What does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus Christ?

I think you bring up a good point. One has to confess not only with their mouth, but with their heart and soul, too. That's difficult, because every day you are going to fail at being the perfect non sinful person (which is actually impossible) and every day, you get a chance to try again. Christianity requires that you change your ways, no doubt about it. I think that's why it's not very popular in some circles.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think you bring up a good point. One has to confess not only with their mouth, but with their heart and soul, too. That's difficult, because every day you are going to fail at being the perfect non sinful person (which is actually impossible) and every day, you get a chance to try again. Christianity requires that you change your ways, no doubt about it. I think that's why it's not very popular in some circles.

It requires that you not only profess Jesus Christ as your Saviour but that you attempt to lead a Christian life with full knowledge that by your faith are you saved thru Christ not by an of your deeds no matter how good and noble they are. For Salvation is a gift from God by way of the sacrifice of God's son Jesus. In essence, Jesus's love and sacrifice saved all of mankind. There is no forcing of acceptance of the gift. It must be a voluntary act and repentance of your sins is necessary part. After that a Christian is covered by the blood of Christ! Not perfect in flesh here and now but instead perfect in Christ..-Tyr

[Noir]

Greed and lust by definition are excessive failings.

Noir, you need to see with your inner being, your heart, your soul, not your intellect. And it is not to say that people are always this way. We all stumble.

You are taught (and seemingly teach) that lust etc is an excessive feeling.

Finding someone sexually attractive does not make you sick.

Finding someone sexually attractive to the point that you'd rape them, does.

[Noir]

Only weaker, more wicked and sicker than an omnipotent God. Christians are merely acknowledging their mortality.

I don't think you'll find any atheists who don't acknowledge their own mortality.

Far from it - when an athiest dies, we don't then expect immorality.

[tailfins]

You are taught (and seemingly teach) that lust etc is an excessive feeling.

Finding someone sexually attractive does not make you sick.

Finding someone sexually attractive to the point that you'd rape them, does.

Matthew 5:28


But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

[Noir]

Matthew 5:28



Thanks for reinforcing my point with scripture (:

[Abbey Marie]

You are taught (and seemingly teach) that lust etc is an excessive feeling.

Finding someone sexually attractive does not make you sick.

Finding someone sexually attractive to the point that you'd rape them, does.

I never said being sexually attracted to someone means you are sick. Finding someone sexually attractive is not necessarily getting to the level of lust. You're a guy- is this really news to you?
Just as enjoying owning expensive things doesn't necessarily rise to the level of greed. Etc.

[cadet]

You are taught (and seemingly teach) that lust etc is an excessive feeling.

Finding someone sexually attractive does not make you sick.

Finding someone sexually attractive to the point that you'd rape them, does.

The point is, i can see someone is fairly attractive. But there reaches a point where you start thinking about what's under her skirt, that's when you start sinning.

[cadet]

Confessing one's sins is not enough. We need to repent and turn away from our sins. Confession is just the First (and often hardest) step in that.

This thread raises an interesting question that I've been pondering lately. What does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus Christ?

:clap:
To be a disciple of Jesus is not to read his word, pray, and not sin.
To be a disciple, you have to go out and teach the word to others, and you must WANT to do good deeds, not be forced to. That's a common misconception, many people think the commandments are there to say what you CAN'T do. The commandments are there for beginner Christians, just a rough guild line of what our morals are, and what aren't seen as good deeds. Just to start out your idea, but it's supposed to expand into you caring and loving all of your brothers and sisters, including the ones that have yet to find Christ.

[tailfins]

:clap:
To be a disciple of Jesus is not to read his word, pray, and not sin.
To be a disciple, you have to go out and teach the word to others, and you must WANT to do good deeds, not be forced to. That's a common misconception, many people think the commandments are there to say what you CAN'T do. The commandments are there for beginner Christians, just a rough guild line of what our morals are, and what aren't seen as good deeds. Just to start out your idea, but it's supposed to expand into you caring and loving all of your brothers and sisters, including the ones that have yet to find Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and
that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not
of works, lest any man should boast.

[Abbey Marie]

This thread makes me think of this beautiful, absolutely beautiful, song.


http://youtu.be/OjP006gcFm8

[cadet]

Ephesians 2:8-9


James 4:17

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Mathew 6:1-4

Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Colossians 3:17 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Colossians-3-17/)
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.


^I can play that game too.

[Noir]

I never said being sexually attracted to someone means you are sick. Finding someone sexually attractive is not necessarily getting to the level of lust. You're a guy- is this really news to you?
Just as enjoying owning expensive things doesn't necessarily rise to the level of greed. Etc.

The word lust means strong sexual desire.


The point is, i can see someone is fairly attractive. But there reaches a point where you start thinking about what's under her skirt, that's when you start sinning.

So when a man feels lust for his wife, sick?

[jimnyc]

I would just recommend for some to just ignore others who want to dismiss your faith and be argumentative about it's existence. If they don't believe, so be it. It's obvious some aren't going to ever believe, and therefore likely posting against Christians just to get a rise.

[Noir]

I would just recommend for some to just ignore others who want to dismiss your faith and be argumentative about it's existence. If they don't believe, so be it. It's obvious some aren't going to ever believe, and therefore likely posting against Christians just to get a rise.

Regardless of what belief someone has as soon as they start saying that a totally natural thing like lust makes us sick, i'd want to take issue with it.

So i would take up the same issue with an atheist moral absolutist, if they proposed the similar thoughts.

[tailfins]

I would just recommend for some to just ignore others who want to dismiss your faith and be argumentative about it's existence. If they don't believe, so be it. It's obvious some aren't going to ever believe, and therefore likely posting against Christians just to get a rise.

Matthew 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Proverbs 14:6

A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth .

Proverbs 1:24-29

24 (http://bible.cc/proverbs/1-24.htm)Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 (http://bible.cc/proverbs/1-25.htm) But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 (http://bible.cc/proverbs/1-26.htm)I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 (http://bible.cc/proverbs/1-27.htm) When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 (http://bible.cc/proverbs/1-28.htm)Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 (http://bible.cc/proverbs/1-29.htm) For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

[Abbey Marie]

Regardless of what belief someone has as soon as they start saying that a totally natural thing like lust makes us sick, i'd want to take issue with it.

So i would take up the same issue with an atheist moral absolutist, if they proposed the similar thoughts.


Suuuure. I'd be hard pressed to find one Christian claim that you don't take issue with.

Jim is right of course. You are always trying to denigrate Christian faith, and spread your atheistic views. Nothing new here.

The upside is, we still get the word out there, and your constant negativity gives us an opportunity to let our faith shine even brighter.
:cool:

[aboutime]

Suuuure. I'd be hard pressed to find one Christian claim that you don't take issue with.

Jim is right of course. You are always trying to denigrate Christian faith, and spread your ateististic views. Nothing new here.

The upside is, we still get the word out there, and your constant negativity gives us an opportunity to let our faith shine even brighter.
:cool:

Abbey. Actually. I rather enjoy hearing, and seeing what so-called Non-believers have to say when trying to defend THEMSELVES against the beliefs of others.

The great thing about My Faith, as a Proud Christian is. I have no reason to make excuses. Nor do I have any responsibility to defend my faith, or beliefs to someone who means nothing, can do nothing, and doesn't care anyhow.
As a Christian. I know how people like Noir, and millions of others often, and happily try to destroy Christians like me, yet they defend others...such as those from the Muslim faith, who are sworn to Kill, and Destroy...what they call non-believers...as in Christians.

So. Being Lame, full of Hatred, Ignorance, and Stupidity is something MY Faith teaches..should be tolerated, and accepted. Primarily because. THOSE WHO WANT TO KILL US...as Christians. Happily practice the Bastardization of something they call A Peaceful Religion, in order to ignore, and abuse anyone who dares to ignore their Hatred.

[tailfins]

James 4:17


Mathew 6:1-4


Colossians 3:17 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Colossians-3-17/)[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana]


^I can play that game too.


Did you get SweetTarts or Tootsie Rolls when you won?

[cadet]

Did you get SweetTarts or Tootsie Rolls when you won?

You are damn right i did! :laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Suuuure. I'd be hard pressed to find one Christian claim that you don't take issue with.

Jim is right of course. You are always trying to denigrate Christian faith, and spread your atheistic views. Nothing new here.

The upside is, we still get the word out there, and your constant negativity gives us an opportunity to let our faith shine even brighter.
:cool:

He condemns others for the splinter in their eye while he pretends that the log in his eye is a beauty mark.
Atheists are usually combative and almost always wrong about everything. They think that they have found a great truth and then they stumble about trying to prove its both real and true. An impossible task when its neither. Their truth that there is no God consumes them and a great many of them recant when on their deathbeds. I have a feeling that Noir isnt bright enough to ever recant.-Tyr

[Noir]

He condemns others for the splinter in their eye while he pretends that the log in his eye is a beauty mark.
Atheists are usually combative and almost always wrong about everything. They think that they have found a great truth and then they stumble about trying to prove its both real and true. An impossible task when its neither. Their truth that there is no God consumes them and a great many of them recant when on their deathbeds. I have a feeling that Noir isnt bright enough to ever recant.-Tyr

"Almost always wrong about everything"
I like that.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

"Almost always wrong about everything"
I like that.

Good, then maybe there is hope for you yet..-;)

[Noir]

Good, then maybe there is hope for you yet..-;)

I want to think so, but then I'm almost always wrong about everything so I reckon I'm better playing the odds and not thinking so (:

[avatar4321]

Ephesians 2:8-9

I dont think anyone's saying otherwise.

[aboutime]

He condemns others for the splinter in their eye while he pretends that the log in his eye is a beauty mark.
Atheists are usually combative and almost always wrong about everything. They think that they have found a great truth and then they stumble about trying to prove its both real and true. An impossible task when its neither. Their truth that there is no God consumes them and a great many of them recant when on their deathbeds. I have a feeling that Noir isnt bright enough to ever recant.-Tyr

No real need to worry, or bother with the self-proclaimed Non-Believers. They spend more time trying to figure ways to convince themselves about not believing, than they do, actually being able to reason WHY they are non-believers.

If there is nothing to claim....As in, Does Not Exist. They have no purpose for anything.

[darin]

some christians sure seem like arrogant pricks. Everyone probably knows the type -

Christianity is nothing anyone can claim or proclaim - it's only defined by one's actions-driven-by-attitude. Sorta like homosexuality - or any other behaviour-based label. We are what we do; or, actually, what we do defines who we are.

Do you love people? I mean really love them in a pure and true sense? If so, you're following Christ. Do you berate those who bother you? Maybe you aren't as christian as you proclaim - nor as enlightened?

[gabosaurus]

Do you love people? I mean really love them in a pure and true sense? If so, you're following Christ.

Exactly. I think back to this phrase quite often:

Judge not, that ye be not judged

Meaning: Do not judge others if you do not want to be judged by others. Only God can judge. And we will eventually judge everyone.
Do not judge by skin color, ethnic heritage, religious preference, sexual preference or physical stature before you judge yourself to be without sin. Let God be the judge of all his people. It is not your place.

[cadet]

some christians sure seem like arrogant pricks. Everyone probably knows the type -

Christianity is nothing anyone can claim or proclaim - it's only defined by one's actions-driven-by-attitude. Sorta like homosexuality - or any other behaviour-based label. We are what we do; or, actually, what we do defines who we are.

Do you love people? I mean really love them in a pure and true sense? If so, you're following Christ. Do you berate those who bother you? Maybe you aren't as christian as you proclaim - nor as enlightened?

Suffice it to say, this is exactly why i never go to church at home.

[jimnyc]

some christians sure seem like arrogant pricks. Everyone probably knows the type -

Christianity is nothing anyone can claim or proclaim - it's only defined by one's actions-driven-by-attitude. Sorta like homosexuality - or any other behaviour-based label. We are what we do; or, actually, what we do defines who we are.

Do you love people? I mean really love them in a pure and true sense? If so, you're following Christ. Do you berate those who bother you? Maybe you aren't as christian as you proclaim - nor as enlightened?

Good to see you in here, young man! Don't be a stranger! :salute:

[Kathianne]

Good to see you in here, young man! Don't be a stranger! :salute:

I'm always shocked by how many 'Christians' choose to disenfranchise so many Catholics. Some of your 'best friends.' Indeed, they are much more comfortable with others with no 'ties' to Jesus. Then again, they believe Catholics worship Mary.

Brings me back to the abuse of my childhood.

[Noir]

Exactly. I think back to this phrase quite often:

Judge not, that ye be not judged

Meaning: Do not judge others if you do not want to be judged by others. Only God can judge. And we will eventually judge everyone.
Do not judge by skin color, ethnic heritage, religious preference, sexual preference or physical stature before you judge yourself to be without sin. Let God be the judge of all his people. It is not your place.

Things like that may sound nice, but really, we have to judge. If we didn't, then nothing would be considered worthy of condemnation, so no, we should judge, and IMO we do it pretty well on the whole in westernised, liberal cultures.

[revelarts]

Noir you points about "religion" characterizing people as weak, sick and sinful needing help is somewhat correct.
The question is whether it's true or false. You seem to say you don't like it. heck I don't like it, but it doesn't mean it's not true.
You say lust is really not bad "unless it goes to far"
greed is really not bad "unless it goes to far"
and MOST people don't go to far.

Can you say that there are very many people that in your view at one time or another have gone too far is some moral issue.
Have you done things that's you've genuinely should have apologize for, because you've done it out of selfish anger? Have you stolen anything?

I'm not trying to guilt you, seriously. it's just that most people will admit that they have not lived everyday full of love and righteousness. Or even lived up our own skewed personal standards of right and wrong.
Even our own conscious's tells just we're wrong. Without having much in the way of "religious" teaching.
Something is set in us as little children that says "that's not fair", "that's not right", "that's not nice" "i'm sorry".

Why aren't we "fair" because we are NOT weak?
why aren't we "right" because we are NOT sick?
Why aren't we "nice" because we are NOT sinners?


you may not like "religions" codification of morals and plain speak about right and wrong but you can't honestly say that people are naturally always good, kind and moral by default. i think we all know that religious and Non religious people COULD be better. And it would be GREAT if we all lived up to what we know is right and good. But we don't. So we have contracts and laws and locked doors on our houses and cars and bikes, politicians lie, companies lie, preachers cheat on their wives, moral atheist cheat on their wives, people cheat from their jobs, kids steal money from grandma, Neighbors play music much louder than they know their neighbors want to hear, we fight animals for sport, we excuse/justify our faults and demand blood from others for theirs, we pass by people in need everyday and don't help, and often don't even grant small acts of kindness to others etc etc etc

I could list plenty more, so i'd say the fact that we do not live up to what we all know is right and good is proof of our weakness.
If we go farther than most that it shows we are morally sick.
Either or shows we are sinners.

But maybe your the 2nd exception.

[gabosaurus]

Brings me back to the abuse of my childhood.

They abused little girls? I thought it was just boys.

[tailfins]

some christians sure seem like arrogant pricks. Everyone probably knows the type -

Christianity is nothing anyone can claim or proclaim - it's only defined by one's actions-driven-by-attitude. Sorta like homosexuality - or any other behaviour-based label. We are what we do; or, actually, what we do defines who we are.

Do you love people? I mean really love them in a pure and true sense? If so, you're following Christ. Do you berate those who bother you? Maybe you aren't as christian as you proclaim - nor as enlightened?

There seems to be a higher concentration of that type South of the Mason-Dixon line. Moving to New England probably saved my faith. I wonder if I can even bring myself to visit a church when visiting down South.

[DragonStryk72]

You are taught (and seemingly teach) that lust etc is an excessive feeling.

Finding someone sexually attractive does not make you sick.

Finding someone sexually attractive to the point that you'd rape them, does.

Yes, just like some anger is okay, as is some pride, but Christianity doesn't require anyone give those up entirely. Yes, no murdering people, just don't do it. And no fantasizing about nailing your's neighbor's wife, or taking his shit. Pretty much everything else falls under "It would be wonderful to avoid them, but let's be honest, we know you're going to screw up at some point, so we've also laid out a basic framework for forgiveness."

When the 7 deadly sins come up, people make the mistake of believing that Christianity believes that you cannot show any of them at all in any way. This is incorrect. When the bible talks about Lust as a cardinal sin, it's talking about your second example, not the first one.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There seems to be a higher concentration of that type South of the Mason-Dixon line.....

Yes, ALL Southerners are redneck sinners that fall far short of the magnificence that you are gifted with. The devil really does live in Georgia. Your bias clearly puts you into the arrogant crowd that lusts in its own supposed magnificent status , absolutely convinced that you are superior to Southern bible thumpers. Pat yourself on the back some more while gloating in your imagined arrogance. Im starting to get a kick out of reading your flattering self-praising.-:laugh2:-Tyr

[tailfins]

Yes, ALL Southerners are redneck sinners that fall far short of the magnificence that you are gifted with. The devil really does live in Georgia. Your bias clearly puts you into the arrogant crowd that lusts in its own supposed magnificent status , absolutely convinced that you are superior to Southern bible thumpers. Pat yourself on the back some more while gloating in your imagined arrogance. Im starting to get a kick out of reading your flattering self-praising.-:laugh2:-Tyr

They fall short of common decency.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

They fall short of common decency.

Well ,why complain here ? Go back there and complain to your indecent friends and relatives..-Tyr

[avatar4321]

Exactly. I think back to this phrase quite often:

Judge not, that ye be not judged

Meaning: Do not judge others if you do not want to be judged by others. Only God can judge. And we will eventually judge everyone.
Do not judge by skin color, ethnic heritage, religious preference, sexual preference or physical stature before you judge yourself to be without sin. Let God be the judge of all his people. It is not your place.

That is one of the most misunderstood and misquoted scriptures.

John 7:24 provides context:

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Christ wasn't telling us not to judge. He was telling us how to judge.

[darin]

That is one of the most misunderstood and misquoted scriptures.

John 7:24 provides context:

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Christ wasn't telling us not to judge. He was telling us how to judge.

Bingo.


Judging has nothing to do with love, ultimately - of course, our judgments will be based from Love - but they are not 'either-or'

[taft2012]

And what about your average, non-raping, non-alcholholic, non-murdering human. Are they sick too?

What criteria would you use to convince raping murdering alcoholics that their lifestyle is evil?

In fact, how would you first define "evil" to them?

[tailfins]

Well ,why complain here ? Go back there and complain to your indecent friends and relatives..-Tyr

Those kind of friends? I don't think so. Relatives? Those kind already know they'd be hauled away in handcuffs if they ever darken my doorstep, which isn't an issue being that those relatives wouldn't be caught dead in New England.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That is one of the most misunderstood and misquoted scriptures.

John 7:24 provides context:

"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Christ wasn't telling us not to judge. He was telling us how to judge.

Exactly, one must make judgements all the time. Evil presents itself(Satan) constantly and Christians must make the judgement to either partake in it or not! Temptation for the lusts of the flesh being a primary offering =prostitution, adultery, etc.. The world is all about sin and Christians have to judge how to both be and act Christlike..
Judging is a part of life..-Tyr

[Noir]

What criteria would you use to convince raping murdering alcoholics that their lifestyle is evil?

In fact, how would you first define "evil" to them?

By the criteria that they are destroying other people's lives.

Things like 'good' and 'evil' are ofcourse subjective, and require intense debate, discussion, and thought, to reach a consensus.

[Noir]

When the 7 deadly sins come up, people make the mistake of believing that Christianity believes that you cannot show any of them at all in any way. This is incorrect. When the bible talks about Lust as a cardinal sin, it's talking about your second example, not the first one.

My point is that you're taught that these perfectly natural feelings are what make you sick.

Am I to have it right that you are saying that not all lust is sinful, only some types of lust?

[Noir]

Noir you points about "religion" characterizing people as weak, sick and sinful needing help is somewhat correct.
The question is whether it's true or false. You seem to say you don't like it. heck I don't like it, but it doesn't mean it's not true.
You say lust is really not bad "unless it goes to far"
greed is really not bad "unless it goes to far"
and MOST people don't go to far.

Can you say that there are very many people that in your view at one time or another have gone too far is some moral issue.
Have you done things that's you've genuinely should have apologize for, because you've done it out of selfish anger? Have you stolen anything?

I'm not trying to guilt you, seriously. it's just that most people will admit that they have not lived everyday full of love and righteousness. Or even lived up our own skewed personal standards of right and wrong.
Even our own conscious's tells just we're wrong. Without having much in the way of "religious" teaching.
Something is set in us as little children that says "that's not fair", "that's not right", "that's not nice" "i'm sorry".

Why aren't we "fair" because we are NOT weak?
why aren't we "right" because we are NOT sick?
Why aren't we "nice" because we are NOT sinners?

you may not like "religions" codification of morals and plain speak about right and wrong but you can't honestly say that people are naturally always good, kind and moral by default. i think we all know that religious and Non religious people COULD be better. And it would be GREAT if we all lived up to what we know is right and good. But we don't. So we have contracts and laws and locked doors on our houses and cars and bikes, politicians lie, companies lie, preachers cheat on their wives, moral atheist cheat on their wives, people cheat from their jobs, kids steal money from grandma, Neighbors play music much louder than they know their neighbors want to hear, we fight animals for sport, we excuse/justify our faults and demand blood from others for theirs, we pass by people in need everyday and don't help, and often don't even grant small acts of kindness to others etc etc etc

I could list plenty more, so i'd say the fact that we do not live up to what we all know is right and good is proof of our weakness.
If we go farther than most that it shows we are morally sick.
Either or shows we are sinners.

But maybe your the 2nd exception.

Except according to most religions I have gone too far, far too far, simply by existing. And (using most Christian religions as an example) unless I seek forgiveness for existing, then I deserve the eternity in hell that's waiting for me in a few years.

That is a moral problem, and ofcourse whether of not its disagreeable doesn't alter the fact of whether of not that is how we are judged, it is nevertheless obviously flawed.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Except according to most religions I have gone too far, far too far, simply by existing. And (using most Christian religions as an example) unless I seek forgiveness for existing, then I deserve the eternity in hell that's waiting for me in a few years.

That is a moral problem, and ofcourse whether of not its disagreeable doesn't alter the fact of whether of not that is how we are judged, it is nevertheless obviously flawed.

God is not flawed but obviously we all are. God provided a way but you reject it , can't blame that on God amigo.That was and still is your choice to make or not.. Tyr

[cadet]

Except according to most religions I have gone too far, far too far, simply by existing. And (using most Christian religions as an example) unless I seek forgiveness for existing, then I deserve the eternity in hell that's waiting for me in a few years.

That is a moral problem, and ofcourse whether of not its disagreeable doesn't alter the fact of whether of not that is how we are judged, it is nevertheless obviously flawed.

Allow me to put it this way, it's not you're going to hell because you didn't seek forgiveness and it's not that you deserve it for trying to be a nice guy but not being christian.
It's for denying god. Imagine, your child flat out says no to you and denies your forgiveness. Your kid then turns around and flat out bashes you and then tries to be a good person. Are you really going to feel good about that? That's why non-believers go to hell.

[Noir]

Allow me to put it this way, it's not you're going to hell because you didn't seek forgiveness and it's not that you deserve it for trying to be a nice guy but not being christian.
It's for denying god. Imagine, your child flat out says no to you and denies your forgiveness. Your kid then turns around and flat out bashes you and then tries to be a good person. Are you really going to feel good about that? That's why non-believers go to hell.

So i deserve eternity in hell because i've hurt a gods feelings? xD
In any case, it doesn't really matter, i'm either going to hell or i'm not. What i'd be more concerned about would be if i was say a Jew, someone who believed in god, tried to live a life by that god etc, only to find that at death i'm off to hell because i didn't meet that gods requirements.

I mean, just looking through this thread, there are obvious disagreements about what it is to be a christian, just words? Or must there be deeds? Is praying to Mary worshiping a false idle? etc. One of my Aunties and my Mum are pretty big christians, but my Auntie goes to a church that teaches you must go to church to get into heaven, were my mum is only ever in churches for weddings, christenings, or funerals.

I think the ambiguity that ripples through christians should be much more troubling that what an atheist thinks.

[darin]

Except according to most religions I have gone too far, far too far, simply by existing. And (using most Christian religions as an example) unless I seek forgiveness for existing, then I deserve the eternity in hell that's waiting for me in a few years.

That is a moral problem, and ofcourse whether of not its disagreeable doesn't alter the fact of whether of not that is how we are judged, it is nevertheless obviously flawed.


That is a paradox with popular Christianity - While Adam's sin is enough to cover all of mankind, from then to eternity - with our without man's choice, Christ's attonement - it seems - is NOT enough to cover all mankind from then to eternity. Seems like the Power of being 'born-into Sin' through Adam is stronger than the power of redemption through Christ.

I'm fairly convinced most of what we think we understand about God and what God "requires" will ultimately be proven as bullshit. There's nothing we can do, period, for God's grace and forgiveness. If there's nothing we can 'do' - and grace is bestowed absolutely apart from ANY works, then I sumise "proclaiming christ" in the traditional christian way of 'asking forgiveness' won't matter. I'm starting to think God created us for a reason - to exist into eternity. Would be short-sighted of God to "Lose" more souls to Hell than he "won" to heaven.

That brings into topic historical reglion's attempt at social engineering and behaviour modification by deciding what behavior is sinful or not.

[avatar4321]

Christ's Atonement does cover all mankind. He makes us innocent from birth and responsible for only our own sins. Because of His resurrection every one of us will rise from the dead into Immortality regardless of our choices.

Because of the Atonement we do have a choice. We are free to choose good or evil.

[aboutime]

During most of my long, adult life. I have learned, as a Christian to be forgiving of those who claim Not to believe. And it is also important to me, based on my experiences in life. Never to attempt to convince anyone who claims to be a NON-Believer, to change their mind, or tell them they are wrong because they DO NOT BELIEVE as I believe.

Truth is. As I have also learned, from others of all ages, races, and religious beliefs. Claiming NOT TO BELIEVE, is nothing more than an easy kind of excuse most use to Ignore, or Disobey what we Christians know as the TEN COMMANDMENTS, or the accepted Rules of Man.

If the Non-believers can say they are not held responsible to follow, or obey the Ten Commandments, or Common, accepted Rules of man. They have an instant out to BREAK any Rules they like, and feel no responsibility to obey laws they disagree with, or do not want.

Atheists seem to be phony to me. They need to claim being Non-believers, or Atheist in order to Justify their ignorance, intolerance of rules, laws, or common courtesy to other human beings who TIE THEMSELVES DOWN with Anti-Atheist kinds of Silly rules...like Murder, Incest, Rape, Stealing, or Adultery.

In other words. If they deny a God, and those silly Ten Rules...they have freedom to break any laws they like, without feeling any responsibility to others.

[Robert A Whit]

This had me wondering yesterday, as some seem to think there are very strict requirements to be a Christian and gain entry into heaven. I think this picture tells the story best.

http://i.imgur.com/yuk0v.jpg

Wild applause. Thanks a lot for that. :clap:

[Robert A Whit]

My warfare is, and has been for years, to get the people to understand that if they do not take care of themselves they will not be taken care of; that if we do not lay the foundation to feed and clothe and shelter ourselves we shall perish with hunger and with cold; we might also suffer in the summer season from the direct rays of the sun upon our naked and unprotected bodies - Brigham Young

I hope no true Christian refuses to vote for Mitt Romney because the man is a Mormon. I am one as well.

Some support a man being married to a man or a woman being married to a woman yet resist the belief that a man can have more than one wife. They want no rules placed on homsexuals while at the same time vigorously defending rules set down to keep adults from marrying those who are relatives. Take this case for example. CA arrested a mother and her adult son and charged them with incest. They had two children. The rest of the story is the son had been put up for adoption when he was an infant. His mother did not raise him. She all but forgot him. As an adult, he found out about his adoption. He wanted to meet the woman who gave birth to him. I can't tell you why, but apparently the attraction she had felt towards his father got transfered to her son. I can't prove it but I think that perhaps she had a love for the father and somehow the son fit the bill. I don't know who seduced whom. But I know that despite them having 2 kids, the cops arrested both.

The people who support homosexuals refuse to support that mother and her son.

My church gave up polygamy about 120 years ago. Those in the splinter group call themselves Mormons and I guess they are. But the main church does not promote or accept polygamy. They also don't accept any form of incest even though what I described was between two consenting adults. Let's not go ugly by trying to approve kids being victimized.

But another point we believe. We believe one does not deliberately harm his own body. That is what is behind the word of wisdom. Some things hurt your body. The word of Wisdom has been validated by modern science.

We believe in making sure none of our members goes hungry or lacks money to pay for shelter. We go so far as to pay rent or mortgages when the need is learned of. Some don't realize that our leaders do not collect wages for doing church work. They do it all for the love of humans.

Mitt is a very good man. Notice he has during his life gone out of his way to put up his own cash to help others to the point he and his family have lots of hands on experience at taking care of those in need.

[Robert A Whit]

Those kind of friends? I don't think so. Relatives? Those kind already know they'd be hauled away in handcuffs if they ever darken my doorstep, which isn't an issue being that those relatives wouldn't be caught dead in New England.

Are you actually saying that New England is free of those types? You know your own family far better than any of us could know them. And what it sounds like is you came from bad stock.

Yet you try to equate your family to those living in the South. I happen to know a lot of people living in the South and for the most part, they are very decent human beings.

Take Ky for instance. Yes, his first name is really Ky. I met the man and met his wife. Ky lives in TX. Ky graduated from the Military academy at West Point and served as an Armored officer. Ky to this day, though he has long been out of the Army, serves his community. And believe me, he deals with the poor. Ky if you asked him to vote for Obama would lose his cookies. No way does he support that clown.

[Robert A Whit]

Mormons and hell.

We believe in 3 levels where the departed wind up being.

I can't remember any mention of hell in any of our classes. I doubt that Mitt Romeny would say somebody can end up in hell.

We do believe in 3 places.

We believe in the level that is as I understand this, just like the Earth is.

We believe in a next higher abode area where those who have learned much more about GOD and Jesus and have been much more virtuous than those living in the lower place.

We believe in one more level, even higher where God and Jesus spend much of their time. This would be for the very extreme good people.

But no, i never hear of hell but from some types that have yet not had their eyes opened.

[aboutime]

I hope no true Christian refuses to vote for Mitt Romney because the man is a Mormon. I am one as well.

Some support a man being married to a man or a woman being married to a woman yet resist the belief that a man can have more than one wife. They want no rules placed on homsexuals while at the same time vigorously defending rules set down to keep adults from marrying those who are relatives. Take this case for example. CA arrested a mother and her adult son and charged them with incest. They had two children. The rest of the story is the son had been put up for adoption when he was an infant. His mother did not raise him. She all but forgot him. As an adult, he found out about his adoption. He wanted to meet the woman who gave birth to him. I can't tell you why, but apparently the attraction she had felt towards his father got transfered to her son. I can't prove it but I think that perhaps she had a love for the father and somehow the son fit the bill. I don't know who seduced whom. But I know that despite them having 2 kids, the cops arrested both.

The people who support homosexuals refuse to support that mother and her son.

My church gave up polygamy about 120 years ago. Those in the splinter group call themselves Mormons and I guess they are. But the main church does not promote or accept polygamy. They also don't accept any form of incest even though what I described was between two consenting adults. Let's not go ugly by trying to approve kids being victimized.

But another point we believe. We believe one does not deliberately harm his own body. That is what is behind the word of wisdom. Some things hurt your body. The word of Wisdom has been validated by modern science.

We believe in making sure none of our members goes hungry or lacks money to pay for shelter. We go so far as to pay rent or mortgages when the need is learned of. Some don't realize that our leaders do not collect wages for doing church work. They do it all for the love of humans.

Mitt is a very good man. Notice he has during his life gone out of his way to put up his own cash to help others to the point he and his family have lots of hands on experience at taking care of those in need.



Robert. As a true Christian. I will have no problem voting for Romney...despite his beliefs. What scares me is someone like Obama, pretending to be a Christian, when most of us know. FALSE PROPHETS never succeed, even in politics.

[Robert A Whit]

Robert. As a true Christian. I will have no problem voting for Romney...despite his beliefs. What scares me is someone like Obama, pretending to be a Christian, when most of us know. FALSE PROPHETS never succeed, even in politics.

I and Mitt are both true Christians. There is no if or but about it. If you believe that the entire Bible is in the Bible we so often have at our hand, you may not believe in the view of Heavan we believe in. If you believe you or others may end up in Hell, perhaps your religion is not very Christian at all. I don't know what you believe. But I know that Obama is the false prophet and that Mitt is not one. Can you cite or think of any instance that Jesus promised Hell to anybody?

[cadet]

I and Mitt are both true Christians. There is no if or but about it. If you believe that the entire Bible is in the Bible we so often have at our hand, you may not believe in the view of Heavan we believe in. If you believe you or others may end up in Hell, perhaps your religion is not very Christian at all. I don't know what you believe. But I know that Obama is the false prophet and that Mitt is not one. Can you cite or think of any instance that Jesus promised Hell to anybody?


No... You're Mormons...
Christianity and Mormonism might both talk about being saved, but the two are nowhere near the same. I'm sorry, but no.

(not saying i'm not voting for him, i already sent my absentee vote in.)

[Noir]

No... You're Mormons...
Christianity and Mormonism might both talk about being saved, but the two are nowhere near the same. I'm sorry, but no.

(not saying i'm not voting for him, i already sent my absentee vote in.)

What exactly is the difference in terms of the belief that Jesus is the son of god?

[cadet]

What exactly is the difference in terms of the belief that Jesus is the son of god?

My main concern with Mormonism is getting a planet if you're good enough. It, It's a cult. No other way to say that.

Some of you people on here bash Muslims, even though their views come from the same branch as the rest, (Jews, Christians, etc.) They at least are smart enough to not call themselves Christians. I actually dislike Mormonism more then Islam.

[007]

SUUM CIQUE!!
Thats my view on religion.

most athiests are angered when I say this!

[Noir]

My main concern with Mormonism is getting a planet if you're good enough. It, It's a cult. No other way to say that.

Some of you people on here bash Muslims, even though their views come from the same branch as the rest, (Jews, Christians, etc.) They at least are smart enough to not call themselves Christians. I actually dislike Mormonism more then Islam.

Not really an answer to the question i asked - What do Mormons this in regards to Jesus being the son of God that separates them from Christians?

[Robert A Whit]

My main concern with Mormonism is getting a planet if you're good enough. It, It's a cult. No other way to say that.

Some of you people on here bash Muslims, even though their views come from the same branch as the rest, (Jews, Christians, etc.) They at least are smart enough to not call themselves Christians. I actually dislike Mormonism more then Islam.

Well pal

You damned sure hate me then. Your main concern is that some Mormons might get a planet?

Good lord. Why would that worry you so much? Actually though there is the original creater known as GOD, Jesus and others are also GODS. I hate to break it to you this way but the term GOD is not as you believe it is. No it is not a cult. Islam is since the Muslims will murder you for making terrible comments about Mohammed. We don't kill over somebody making awful things up about Joseph Smith. All Smith did is bring us back to the more accurate path. But we don't preach if you don't do it our way, you go to hell. Too many churches preach it is their way or you go to hell.

Look, I sure won't end up with any planet. I am not rigid in going along with all of the church teaching. At my age, if it comes to coffee on Sunday or church, I take care of my coffee.

Mormons believe in 3 stages after death. Death of the body is not your end. I don't believe I have ever read any poster that I think shall end up in hell. I never heard Mormons mention hell in church. We don't worship Joseph Smith. We see him as one more prophet. We teach that he got a gift of a visit from an angel. We don't teach that he was visited by God or Jesus. I believe since I read some of the Koran that they teach Mohammed got personal visits from God.

Yet you defend that. Go figure.

[avatar4321]

My main concern with Mormonism is getting a planet if you're good enough. It, It's a cult. No other way to say that.

Some of you people on here bash Muslims, even though their views come from the same branch as the rest, (Jews, Christians, etc.) They at least are smart enough to not call themselves Christians. I actually dislike Mormonism more then Islam.

Your main concern is something completely irrelevant to Mormon teachings and is about as anncillary as how many angles can fit on the top of a pin? The idea comes from the Bibles claims that we are joint heirs with Christ and will recieve everything the Father has with Him.

And what are the Fundamentals of Mormonism as defined by Joseph Smith:


“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth.”

Concerning the Resurrection of Christ:


“Those who have died in Jesus Christ may expect to enter into all that fruition of joy when they come forth, which they possessed or anticipated here. … I am glad I have the privilege of communicating to you some things which, if grasped closely, will be a help to you when earthquakes bellow, the clouds gather, the lightnings flash, and the storms are ready to burst upon you like peals of thunder. Lay hold of these things and let not your knees or joints tremble, nor your hearts faint; and then what can earthquakes, wars and tornadoes do? Nothing. All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful. By the vision of the Almighty I have seen it. …

“God has revealed His Son from the heavens and the doctrine of the resurrection also; and we have a knowledge that those we bury here God will bring up again, clothed upon and quickened by the Spirit of the great God; and what mattereth it whether we lay them down, or we lay down with them, when we can keep them no longer? Let these truths sink down in our hearts, that we may even here begin to enjoy that which shall be in full hereafter.”


Concerning the Atonement of Christ:



"The Father of our spirits [provided] a sacrifice for His creatures, a plan of redemption, a power of atonement, a scheme of salvation, having as its great objects, the bringing of men back into the presence of the King of heaven, crowning them in the celestial glory, and making them heirs with the Son to that inheritance which is incorruptible, undefiled, and which fadeth not away.”

Concerning our Walk with Christ:


“When we reflect upon the holiness and perfections of our great Master, who has opened a way whereby we may come unto him, even by the sacrifice of himself, our hearts melt within us for his condescension. And when we reflect also, that he has called us to be perfect in all things, that we may be prepared to meet him in peace when he comes in his glory with all the holy angels, we feel to exhort our brethren with boldness, to be humble and prayerful, to walk indeed as children of the light and of the day, that they may have grace to withstand every temptation, and to overcome every evil in the worthy name of our Lord Jesus Christ. For be assured, brethren, that the day is truly near when the Master of the house will rise up and shut the door, and none but such as have on a wedding garment will be permitted to enjoy a seat at the marriage supper!”

http://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-3?lang=eng

I know there are those who like to proclaim that Mormonism isn't Christian. But that's false. Christ is our Lord. The Center of our Faith. Without His Atonement and Resurrection, we would be lost. It is only through Him that we can be reconciled with God. It is only by His grace that we can become Born of the Spirit. It is only through Him that we are empowered with repentence and only through Him that we can overcome trials and temptations to become the children of God in deed as well as in name.

I can tell you that I know through the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is my Savior. It was that same Spirit that taught me that the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. The Holy Spirit taught me that Joseph Smith was a Prophet and that the Fulness of Christianity has been restored. I believe the Spirit. The Lord has given me no reason to doubt and I've seen amazing things, including miracles, since then to confirm that.

If you want to claim that I am not Christian, you can do so. But I know I am. And God knows I am. And that's what is important.

[avatar4321]

Well pal

You damned sure hate me then. Your main concern is that some Mormons might get a planet?

Good lord. Why would that worry you so much? Actually though there is the original creater known as GOD, Jesus and others are also GODS. I hate to break it to you this way but the term GOD is not as you believe it is. No it is not a cult. Islam is since the Muslims will murder you for making terrible comments about Mohammed. We don't kill over somebody making awful things up about Joseph Smith. All Smith did is bring us back to the more accurate path. But we don't preach if you don't do it our way, you go to hell. Too many churches preach it is their way or you go to hell.

Look, I sure won't end up with any planet. I am not rigid in going along with all of the church teaching. At my age, if it comes to coffee on Sunday or church, I take care of my coffee.

Mormons believe in 3 stages after death. Death of the body is not your end. I don't believe I have ever read any poster that I think shall end up in hell. I never heard Mormons mention hell in church. We don't worship Joseph Smith. We see him as one more prophet. We teach that he got a gift of a visit from an angel. We don't teach that he was visited by God or Jesus. I believe since I read some of the Koran that they teach Mohammed got personal visits from God.

Yet you defend that. Go figure.

Not really sure where you are going here. God and Jesus did visit Joseph. Christ also appeared before Joseph and Oliver in the Kirtland Temple when the Keys of the Priesthood were restored. There are also accounts of the Father and the Son Appearing to the School of the Prophets. If you read the new Lorenzo Snow manual the Church will be using for Priesthood/Relief Society next year, you will also read an account of Christ appearing to him as well.

Also, this life is a period of repentence for a reason. There is always time to repent.

[taft2012]

By the criteria that they are destroying other people's lives.

Things like 'good' and 'evil' are ofcourse subjective, and require intense debate, discussion, and thought, to reach a consensus.

If your criteria of "evil" is that certain behaviors "are destroying other people's lives" then I could categorize Obama as "evil."

If a consensus of the population gives its elected leaders the green light to go ahead and engage in actions that destroy other people's live, is that then "evil"? Or is it merely democracy? Do you have such great trust in humanity, with its track record, to be the sole determining voice in what is "evil" and what is not?

[Noir]

If your criteria of "evil" is that certain behaviors "are destroying other people's lives" then I could categorize Obama as "evil."

If a consensus of the population gives its elected leaders the green light to go ahead and engage in actions that destroy other people's live, is that then "evil"? Or is it merely democracy? Do you have such great trust in humanity, with its track record, to be the sole determining voice in what is "evil" and what is not?

As I said, the philosophy of what is good and what is evil is remarkably complex, and as such has been the subject of countless books through millennia of free thought.

And ofcourse the 'majority' can enact evil. Evil and democracy are not at odds with each other.

[Noir]

As for the above few posts regarding Mormonism. It's fascinating, is it not. To people like myself, and most Christians etc, the story of the Mormon church is so obviously fraudulent as to be embarrassing.

But to people who believe it, it *is* the word and actions of a divine, omnipotent being, and a record of fact.

It's only a step down from Scientology in the obvious fakery, and yet well meaning, hard working, intelligent, and honest, people, believe whole heatedly in it.

[cadet]

Not really an answer to the question i asked - What do Mormons this in regards to Jesus being the son of God that separates them from Christians?

http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine





God came from another planet
God is a man with a body of flesh and bones
There is a mother goddess
God and his goddess wife are married
You can become gods

this is my issue. that, and a guy had comandments that disapeared after he got them? and only he could read them?


In October 1827, Smith and his pregnant[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-44) wife moved from Palmyra to Harmony (now Oakland, Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland_Township,_Susquehanna_County,_Pennsylvania )) [46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-45) aided by money from a comparatively prosperous neighbor Martin Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Harris_(Latter_Day_Saints)).[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-46) Living near his in-laws,[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-47) Smith transcribed some of the characters (what he called "reformed Egyptian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian)") engraved on the plates and then dictated a translation to his wife.[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-48)
In February 1828, Martin Harris arrived to assist with the translation.[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-49) Harris took a sample of the characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthon_transcript) to a few prominent scholars,[51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-50)including Charles Anthon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Anthon), who Harris said initially authenticated the characters and their translation, then recanted upon hearing that Smith had received the plates from an angel.[52] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-51) Anthon later denied this claim[53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-52) but Harris returned to Harmony in April 1828 motivated to act as Smith's scribe.[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-53)
Translation continued until mid-June 1828, until Harris began having doubts about the existence of the golden plates.[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-54) Harris convinced Smith to let him take the existing 116 pages of manuscript (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_116_pages) to Palmyra to show a few family members.[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-55) Harris then lost the manuscript–of which there was no copy–at about the same time as Smith's wife Emma gave birth to a stillborn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stillbirth) son.[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-56) Smith said that as punishment for losing the manuscript the angel took away the plates and he had lost his ability to translate[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#cite_note-57) until September 22, 1828, when Smith said that the plates were restored

That sounds like a load of malarkey.

[cadet]

...No it is not a cult. Islam is since the Muslims will murder you for making terrible comments about Mohammed. We don't kill over somebody making awful things up about Joseph Smith. All Smith did is bring us back to the more accurate path. But we don't preach if you don't do it our way, you go to hell. Too many churches preach it is their way or you go to hell....

Where that's true, i'm sure i've heard a story or two about mormons bullying people into going to their church.

http://trappedbythemormons.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/religious-bullying-proof-that-the-lds-church-does-influence-their-members/

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/53341059-79/state-liquor-utah-laws.html.csp

(not sure about the validity of this next one) http://www.janishutchinson.com/agenda.html

http://www.rationalrevelation.com/library/bite.html

[darin]

Funny to me - the professed Mormons here are conducting their discussion with a LOT more 'christ-type' compassion or calm than the others.


Few things are more anti-christian than personal insults about another's faith of choice. I think folks may want to consider their hearts as they profess their views on God.

[Nukeman]

I am just going to reply with, It is a matter of personal belief. If you believe in treating others well and leading a moral life I really don't care which religion you follow. You have to be true to yourself, I would rather someone be completely honest, trustworthy, and moral than be a fake Sunday Christian...

That is all I will say on this.

[Noir]

http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine


this is my issue. that, and a guy had comandments that disapeared after he got them? and only he could read them?

That sounds like a load of malarkey.

Again, nothing with regards to my question. Trust me, I think it sounds even more nonsensical that Christianity, you don't need to prove anything about the convicted fraudster Smith, to me.

What I am asking, simply, is do Mormons hold dear to them the 'truth' that Jesus was the son of God?

[tailfins]

Where that's true, i'm sure i've heard a story or two about mormons bullying people into going to their church.

http://trappedbythemormons.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/religious-bullying-proof-that-the-lds-church-does-influence-their-members/

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/53341059-79/state-liquor-utah-laws.html.csp

(not sure about the validity of this next one) http://www.janishutchinson.com/agenda.html

http://www.rationalrevelation.com/library/bite.html

There are so many false religions out there, that one could occupy (read waste) their entire life learning about them. There's Islam, Buddhism, Mormonism, Unitarianism, Catholicism, Hindu, etc. Just making the list is too much work! If you knew a truck load of currency was counterfeit, why would you bother examining each bank note? I guess that's why people obsessed with Islam annoy me.


Again, nothing with regards to my question. Trust me, I think it sounds even more nonsensical that Christianity, you don't need to prove anything about the convicted fraudster Smith, to me.

What I am asking, simply, is do Mormons hold dear to them the 'truth' that Jesus was the son of God?

They present a radically different Jesus than others.

[jimnyc]

There are so many false religions out there, that one could occupy (read waste) their entire life learning about them. There's Islam, Buddhism, Mormonism, Unitarianism, Catholicism, Hindu, etc. Just making the list is too much work! If you knew a truck load of currency was counterfeit, why would you bother examining each bank note? I guess that's why people obsessed with Islam annoy me.
.

I don't think it's that people are obsessed with Islam, but rather that it's the only religion that I'm aware of that is involved in killing on such a massive scale since 9/11. I don't think following the news or posting facts is necessarily an "obsession".

[cadet]

Again, nothing with regards to my question. Trust me, I think it sounds even more nonsensical that Christianity, you don't need to prove anything about the convicted fraudster Smith, to me.

What I am asking, simply, is do Mormons hold dear to them the 'truth' that Jesus was the son of God?

Yes, and that is one of the very few things they have in common with Christianity.

But they differ so much from Christianity that I can't put them in the same category. They're not even a denomination of Christianity.

[Noir]

Yes, and that is one of the very few things they have in common with Christianity.

And that is the key component of Christianity. Which is good enough for me.

All the rest (whether you should pray to Mary, if your churches should be fancy or plain, if the afterlife is another planet etc) are just details, that (you'd hope) god would overlook. Cus damn it would suck to go to hell on a technicality...

[cadet]

And that is the key component of Christianity. Which is good enough for me.

All the rest (whether you should pray to Mary, if your churches should be fancy or plain, if the afterlife is another planet etc) are just details, that (you'd hope) god would overlook. Cus damn it would suck to go to hell on a technicality...

Ok, allow me to try to write this out better.

I don't agree with Mormons asossiating themselves with Christians because they're not Christian. The separate denominations of Christianity are just different interpretations of the bible. Whereas Mormons have changed the Bible, just as Muslims have changed the Bible.
Same as Christians added to the old testament, so that we're not considered Jewish either.

So no, they've changed so much in the bible that it's not the bible anymore. It's nowhere near a denomination of anything. It's its own separate religion.

[tailfins]

And that is the key component of Christianity. Which is good enough for me.

All the rest (whether you should pray to Mary, if your churches should be fancy or plain, if the afterlife is another planet etc) are just details, that (you'd hope) god would overlook. Cus damn it would suck to go to hell on a technicality...

Praying to Mary when the Bible tells us that Jesus is the only way to God is like saying you can substitute water for gasoline in a vehicle because they are both liquid.

[darin]

Praying to Mary when the Bible tells us that Jesus is the only way to God is like saying you can substitute water for gasoline in a vehicle because they are both liquid.

What if praying to mary IS praying to Jesus? What if because of Christ the way to God is already set, and now nothing else matters because our sins are now covered?

God does NOT need the bible to bring people to Him. Sometimes God brings people to him despite the bible - specifically, what SOME try to claim are rules based therein.


Ok, allow me to try to write this out better.

I don't agree with Mormons asossiating themselves with Christians because they're not Christian. The separate denominations of Christianity are just different interpretations of the bible. Whereas Mormons have changed the Bible, just as Muslims have changed the Bible.
Same as Christians added to the old testament, so that we're not considered Jewish either.

So no, they've changed so much in the bible that it's not the bible anymore. It's nowhere near a denomination of anything. It's its own separate religion.


Christians change the bible all the time. From the day the scriptures were cannonized, folks have changed what they thought God wanted us to know.

[cadet]

Christians change the bible all the time. From the day the scriptures were cannonized, folks have changed what they thought God wanted us to know.

Name one example. There are different TRANSLATIONS of the bible, but Christians don't CHANGE the bible.

(hence why most of us read a few diffrent versions of a verse to get a closer idea to what it means)

[darin]

Name one example. There are different TRANSLATIONS of the bible, but Christians don't CHANGE the bible.

(hence why most of us read a few diffrent versions of a verse to get a closer idea to what it means)


The base texts for just about ever translations have probably 5% variance. The books selected to be IN the bible (see: constantine) were done so at a meeting-of-the-minds, so to speak. Because of this those deciding of course used their personal opinion - as well as other methods - to decide which books used were 'officially' inspired of God. The Bibles used by christains over time were different (hence the council in the first place).

Even today, among the translations, people put their spin on what they are reading without much thought as to the more-important aspect: What God wants us to know about Him is VASTLY more important than what the bible specificially reads.

Using the Bible as a way to insult (opposite of love) those claiming Christ is terrible. Hell, Christ himself said those who claim him and are not against him, are therefore FOR Him.

:)

[aboutime]

Anyone discussing Christianity, the Bible, or anything else related to your SO-CALLED "requirements". Are just wasting your time.

There are NO requirements to be a Christian. Either you are, or your aren't. And no Christian has any need to defend, or explain anything to anyone who feels they must question, or determine what the requirements are.

If you try to do that. Try this. How bout a discussion about the "requirements" to be an Atheist????

[avatar4321]

As for the above few posts regarding Mormonism. It's fascinating, is it not. To people like myself, and most Christians etc, the story of the Mormon church is so obviously fraudulent as to be embarrassing.

But to people who believe it, it *is* the word and actions of a divine, omnipotent being, and a record of fact.

It's only a step down from Scientology in the obvious fakery, and yet well meaning, hard working, intelligent, and honest, people, believe whole heatedly in it.

I've found that most of those who think its fraudulent haven't really understood it.

Read the Book of Mormon sometime. It may surprise you. I've met plenty of people who have read it in an attempt to disprove it that ended up being converted by the power of the Spirit. There is power in the book.

[Robert A Whit]

Yes, and that is one of the very few things they have in common with Christianity.

But they differ so much from Christianity that I can't put them in the same category. They're not even a denomination of Christianity.

We are Christians. Why do you suppose when the leaders named our church the entire name is thus:

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Church of whom?

Sadly, some Christians seem bound to distance themselves from us.

[avatar4321]

http://carm.org/comparison-between-christian-doctrine-and-mormon-doctrine

[/LIST]
this is my issue. that, and a guy had comandments that disapeared after he got them? and only he could read them?



That sounds like a load of malarkey.

You can read the Book of Mormon yourself. It's published in English. We give free copies away. You can find one here: http://mormon.org/free-book-of-mormon

I invite you to read it for yourself and take Moroni's challenge:


Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:3-5 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng))


Please. Take the challenge. Paul invited us to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1 Thess 5:21) The Lord can and will reveal the truth of all things by the Power of the Holy Ghost. Put your faith in God and take the Challenge. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain from it.

[avatar4321]

Funny to me - the professed Mormons here are conducting their discussion with a LOT more 'christ-type' compassion or calm than the others.


Few things are more anti-christian than personal insults about another's faith of choice. I think folks may want to consider their hearts as they profess their views on God.

Odd. I haven't seen many personal insults at all. Maybe I missed them.

But it realley shouldn't surprise you that we might conduct discussion with Christ-like compassion. We believe in being Christ-like. We encourage people to come to Christ and follow His example:


"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot." (Moroni 10:32-33 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng))

Or my personal favorite:


"Behold, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I have been called of him to declare his word among his people, that they might have everlasting life." (3 Nephi 5:13 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/5?lang=eng))

[avatar4321]

I am just going to reply with, It is a matter of personal belief. If you believe in treating others well and leading a moral life I really don't care which religion you follow. You have to be true to yourself, I would rather someone be completely honest, trustworthy, and moral than be a fake Sunday Christian...

That is all I will say on this.

I can't disagree with you there brother. I believe strongly in my faith. And I will share it. But if I can't persuade you my way is better, I am all for lifting you in whatever way I can. I'd much rather see people be good and moral with no official religion or another religion than be fake and immoral and proclaim to follow Christ.

[avatar4321]

Again, nothing with regards to my question. Trust me, I think it sounds even more nonsensical that Christianity, you don't need to prove anything about the convicted fraudster Smith, to me.

What I am asking, simply, is do Mormons hold dear to them the 'truth' that Jesus was the son of God?

Yes. I am sure I could elaborate if you wanted me to. But Yes pretty much sums up the answer.

[avatar4321]

Ok, allow me to try to write this out better.

I don't agree with Mormons asossiating themselves with Christians because they're not Christian. The separate denominations of Christianity are just different interpretations of the bible. Whereas Mormons have changed the Bible, just as Muslims have changed the Bible.
Same as Christians added to the old testament, so that we're not considered Jewish either.

So no, they've changed so much in the bible that it's not the bible anymore. It's nowhere near a denomination of anything. It's its own separate religion.

But we are Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ. We follow Jesus Christ. We Prophesy of Jesus Christ. We teach Jesus Christ.

We simply believe that God hasn't stopped talking and has continued to reveal His will. We believe that He revealed Himself to other people, like the ancient inhabitants of America who were visited by the Resurrected Christ who taught them His Gospel. We have that record in the Book of Mormon that stands as a second witness of Jesus Christ with the Bible. The record of Judah and the record of Joseph testify to the world that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the world. They testify that Christ rose from the dead. They testify of the First principles of the Gospel or the Doctrines of Christ. And we believe that God will continue to reveal Himself to the world and prepare the world for Christ's second coming.

The Book of Mormon is not the Bible. It's a newly revealed scripture. And as the Bible says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16). The Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the Book of Mormon is scripture. It is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, adn for the instruction of Righteousness.

Read it for yourself. You have nothing to lose by reading it. You have everything to gain. We are told that we are to live off every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. If that is true, isn't it our obligations as Christians to read and study ALL the scriptures. and not just the ones found in the Bible? Aren't we obligated as Christians to take the challenge the Book of Mormon gives and find out from God whether it's true or not?

[Robert A Whit]

I've found that most of those who think its fraudulent haven't really understood it.

Read the Book of Mormon sometime. It may surprise you. I've met plenty of people who have read it in an attempt to disprove it that ended up being converted by the power of the Spirit. There is power in the book.

I keep asking, why do a few Christians, note it is but a few, that make it a habit of running down my church. I don't waste my time running down their church.

We are so secure in our faith that we can even attend other churches and are told that to compare is right.


I see it this way. A true Christian has no time to be running down my church.

And I have compared. I have also gone to denomination churches. I have attended non demonination churches that seem to not bother the other guy at all.

We don't have paid bands performing. We don't hire our leaders. We don't pay the pastor to do what he does.

We are very involved in family welfare. We of all churches make sure our members don't go hungry.

Take Katrina for instance. As a church we rushed aid to those victims. It did not matter what religion they were, we assisted them. How you ask? A family that lost everything needed to be fed. We fed them. We clothed them. We assisted them in many other ways.

I think it is bizarre to run down a church that does the public so much good.

Romney has done a lot for many people and does it not only in his public life, but in his private life. He hits home runs. Can Obama bunt yet?

[avatar4321]

Name one example. There are different TRANSLATIONS of the bible, but Christians don't CHANGE the bible.

(hence why most of us read a few diffrent versions of a verse to get a closer idea to what it means)

Where does God say He can't change something? Where does He say He can't clarify the scriptures? Or provide more information and enlightenment?

A silent God is unbiblical.

[avatar4321]

Anyone discussing Christianity, the Bible, or anything else related to your SO-CALLED "requirements". Are just wasting your time.

There are NO requirements to be a Christian. Either you are, or your aren't. And no Christian has any need to defend, or explain anything to anyone who feels they must question, or determine what the requirements are.

If you try to do that. Try this. How bout a discussion about the "requirements" to be an Atheist????

Then why did Christ say:


¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)


I'm curious what you say to that.

[avatar4321]

:dance:
I keep asking, why do a few Christians, note it is but a few, that make it a habit of running down my church. I don't waste my time running down their church.

We are so secure in our faith that we can even attend other churches and are told that to compare is right.


I see it this way. A true Christian has no time to be running down my church.

And I have compared. I have also gone to denomination churches. I have attended non demonination churches that seem to not bother the other guy at all.

We don't have paid bands performing. We don't hire our leaders. We don't pay the pastor to do what he does.

We are very involved in family welfare. We of all churches make sure our members don't go hungry.

Take Katrina for instance. As a church we rushed aid to those victims. It did not matter what religion they were, we assisted them. How you ask? A family that lost everything needed to be fed. We fed them. We clothed them. We assisted them in many other ways.

I think it is bizarre to run down a church that does the public so much good.

Romney has done a lot for many people and does it not only in his public life, but in his private life. He hits home runs. Can Obama bunt yet?

I am not going to make a determination who is or isnt a true Christian. I'll leave that up to God. I would like to think that they are concerned about the salvation of souls, much as we are.

[Robert A Whit]

Ok, allow me to try to write this out better.

I don't agree with Mormons asossiating themselves with Christians because they're not Christian. The separate denominations of Christianity are just different interpretations of the bible. Whereas Mormons have changed the Bible, just as Muslims have changed the Bible.
Same as Christians added to the old testament, so that we're not considered Jewish either.

So no, they've changed so much in the bible that it's not the bible anymore. It's nowhere near a denomination of anything. It's its own separate religion.

Cadet, you know virtually nothing about my church. I speak of the Christian Church that includes Jesus in the name.

It is not the MORMON church since that is only slang.

The actual name is this. THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.
We love Jesus. As to your claim about the Bible, let me ask this.

Christians follow Jesus. The Jews don't follow Jesus.

So, why do you use their book? Don't you think that once Jesus died, the Jews fussed that we Christians used our book? The New Testament is the Bible of Christians.

The Book of Mormon is not part of the New Testament thus we did not change the Christian Bible.

The book we also add, like you add the Old Testament in your Bible simply has more detail starting in the Old Testament and expands to the area called North America.

Before so called Christians examine our cupboard, let them examine their own first.

When you include the OT, you have added to the Christian Bible.

[Robert A Whit]

:dance:

I am not going to make a determination who is or isnt a true Christian. I'll leave that up to God. I would like to think that they are concerned about the salvation of souls, much as we are.

Why would you suppose my church would not try to help save humans who have souls? We do a lot for all of humanity.

[Robert A Whit]

Ok, allow me to try to write this out better.

I don't agree with Mormons asossiating themselves with Christians because they're not Christian. The separate denominations of Christianity are just different interpretations of the bible. Whereas Mormons have changed the Bible, just as Muslims have changed the Bible.
Same as Christians added to the old testament, so that we're not considered Jewish either.

So no, they've changed so much in the bible that it's not the bible anymore. It's nowhere near a denomination of anything. It's its own separate religion.

Were that true
it would shock the worlds LDS since we always carry the OT/NT with us to church. We avidly study the OT and NT. We love Jesus to the point his name is in the name of our Church.

[Robert A Whit]

Not really sure where you are going here. God and Jesus did visit Joseph. Christ also appeared before Joseph and Oliver in the Kirtland Temple when the Keys of the Priesthood were restored. There are also accounts of the Father and the Son Appearing to the School of the Prophets. If you read the new Lorenzo Snow manual the Church will be using for Priesthood/Relief Society next year, you will also read an account of Christ appearing to him as well.

Also, this life is a period of repentence for a reason. There is always time to repent.

I, having been raised in the LDS church can't recall the part where you claim GOD and Jesus did visit. If this is true, I have to get back to Church since I can't recall ever hearing about that. I know about the restoration of the Priesthood but am not aware of the event you mention at Kirtland.

I shall do what I can do to get caught up. Thanks for the heads up.

[aboutime]

Were that true
it would shock the worlds LDS since we always carry the OT/NT with us to church. We avidly study the OT and NT. We love Jesus to the point his name is in the name of our Church.

Robert. It seems cadet is much younger, less experienced, and less knowledgeable about such topics.

That is what most every Human being experiences during their lifetime. Not unusual. But sometimes. It takes much longer for the reality to take hold, and that comes with experience, wisdom, and general common sense.

Like we hear many young people declare. And as many of us once declared. They are here to straighten everyone else out as to the ways of life because of their young minds, and their intent to demand Only they can be correct, all the time.

I remember back in the 70's, when I was in my twenties, when I personally declared that "Anyone over 30, has no idea what they are talking about!"

Sad thing we all learn...much later is. WE are now those people OVER 30 who have no idea what those under 30 are talking about. And we can all happily laugh at them. REMINDING them....they will eventually be JUST LIKE US.

[Robert A Whit]

this is my issue. that, and a guy had comandments that disapeared after he got them? and only he could read them?

Say, has anybody found the TEN COMMANDMENTS yet?

You forget that Joseph Smith translated with adult witnesses watching him do it.

Why do you waste your time attacking our beliefs?

Science has learned there probably are millions of planets. Why would you be worried if some of us got a planet?

Most will end up on a planet. All planets probably will have leadership. Even our church has leaders. I add they don't get paid for their work that I am aware of. I know the Bishops don't get paid. My father served in the Bishopric. I know he got no pay.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Were that true
it would shock the worlds LDS since we always carry the OT/NT with us to church. We avidly study the OT and NT. We love Jesus to the point his name is in the name of our Church.

Do Mormons accept that Jesus is the Saviour of all mankind? That he is the Son of God and only thru him may a person receive Salvation? If yes then they are Christians if answer is no then they are not. Just that simple.

[Robert A Whit]

Robert. It seems cadet is much younger, less experienced, and less knowledgeable about such topics.

That is what most every Human being experiences during their lifetime. Not unusual. But sometimes. It takes much longer for the reality to take hold, and that comes with experience, wisdom, and general common sense.

Like we hear many young people declare. And as many of us once declared. They are here to straighten everyone else out as to the ways of life because of their young minds, and their intent to demand Only they can be correct, all the time.

I remember back in the 70's, when I was in my twenties, when I personally declared that "Anyone over 30, has no idea what they are talking about!"

Sad thing we all learn...much later is. WE are now those people OVER 30 who have no idea what those under 30 are talking about. And we can all happily laugh at them. REMINDING them....they will eventually be JUST LIKE US.

By the late summer of 1958, I was in my 20s and of course by 1968 I was out.

To be frank here, I at no time saw the older people as having less wisdom than I had. But I realize that by the 70s and later, it was far easier to see the older in the way you say. Even when I was a teen I am sure some of my peers figured they knew it all. I have no clue why they thought that way.

I feel sorry for the current crop of wise acres since later they will be amazed at what they don't know and that when they do finally know, they will look back in the rear view of history and be ashamed.

[Robert A Whit]

Do Mormons accept that Jesus is the Saviour of all mankind? That he is the Son of God and only thru him may a person receive Salvation? If yes then they are Christians if answer is no then they are not. Just that simple.

YES. I am happy to make it that simple for you.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

By the late summer of 1958, I was in my 20s and of course by 1968 I was out.

To be frank here, I at no time saw the older people as having less wisdom than I had. But I realize that by the 70s and later, it was far easier to see the older in the way you say. Even when I was a teen I am sure some of my peers figured they knew it all. I have no clue why they thought that way.

I feel sorry for the current crop of wise acres since later they will be amazed at what they don't know and that when they do finally know, they will look back in the rear view of history and be ashamed.

I disagree with the looking back part. The current wiseacres are to stupid to ever look back. You are thinking of your and my generations with that line of thought IMHO. THOSE SO ENLIGHTENED IN LIBERAL STUPIDITY ARE FAR , FAR LESS LIKELY TO EVER LOOK BACK. They are far too busy scheming how to defeat the truth and reality in order to destroy what is right so as to replace it with their insane fantasy of a socialistic paradise. This is in sanity is being taught in our public schools and colleges.-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

YES. I am happy to make it that simple for you.

Right happy that you are happy..-:beer:--Tyr

[aboutime]

By the late summer of 1958, I was in my 20s and of course by 1968 I was out.

To be frank here, I at no time saw the older people as having less wisdom than I had. But I realize that by the 70s and later, it was far easier to see the older in the way you say. Even when I was a teen I am sure some of my peers figured they knew it all. I have no clue why they thought that way.

I feel sorry for the current crop of wise acres since later they will be amazed at what they don't know and that when they do finally know, they will look back in the rear view of history and be ashamed.

Right you are Robert. You reminded me of an expression, former Defense Secretary Rumsfeld used a few times, that says just about the very same thing. And it means so much when we try to explain to the (as you called them) Wise Acres....better known as WHIPPERSNAPPERS.
And that expression applies so very well when trying to be honest with them, sharing information they Obviously Do Not Wish to hear.

He said "They Don't know, what they don't know...they don't know!"

If they take time to think about just that one sentence. There is no way they could disagree.

[Robert A Whit]

I disagree with the looking back part. The current wiseacres are to stupid to ever look back. You are thinking of your and my generations with that line of thought IMHO. THOSE SO ENLIGHTENED IN LIBERAL STUPIDITY ARE FAR , FAR LESS LIKELY TO EVER LOOK BACK. They are far too busy scheming how to defeat the truth and reality in order to destroy what is right so as to replace it with their insane fantasy of a socialistic paradise. This is in sanity is being taught in our public schools and colleges.-Tyr

I am quite certain that far too many fit the pattern you accurately described. A shame isn't it?

[Robert A Whit]

Right you are Robert. You reminded me of an expression, former Defense Secretary Rumsfeld used a few times, that says just about the very same thing. And it means so much when we try to explain to the (as you called them) Wise Acres....better known as WHIPPERSNAPPERS.
And that expression applies so very well when trying to be honest with them, sharing information they Obviously Do Not Wish to hear.

He said "They Don't know, what they don't know...they don't know!"

If they take time to think about just that one sentence. There is no way they could disagree.

Youi will know when you are my friend when you start calling me Bob.

Did you read Don's book? I have read his book, Bush's book and Cheney's book. Taken in whole, one can learn a lot. Much of what was in Gen. Tommy Franks book was confirmed as true. That not confirmed still was true since Franks was the commander of all forces in those two wars.

We agree on what you said.

[aboutime]

I am quite certain that far too many fit the pattern you accurately described. A shame isn't it?



More than a shame. Our entire Educational system in this nation is a shameful example of Politics, Money, and Power, all directed toward targets that DO NOT INCLUDE our Children First.

We all know it. And those who claim to be Politicians across this nation know. MONEY TALKS, and Uneducated Americans DO NOT CARE.

[Noir]

Say, has anybody found the TEN COMMANDMENTS yet?

You forget that Joseph Smith translated with adult witnesses watching him do it.

Why do you waste your time attacking our beliefs?

Science has learned there probably are millions of planets. Why would you be worried if some of us got a planet?

Most will end up on a planet. All planets probably will have leadership. Even our church has leaders. I add they don't get paid for their work that I am aware of. I know the Bishops don't get paid. My father served in the Bishopric. I know he got no pay.

That quote wasn't by me, though i'd like to respond anyways.

As for translating with other adults around, am i right in saying that a woman, who's name i can't recall, stole a hundred pages or so, and asked Smith to translate them again, as they would be exact copies (what a brilliant woman!) and Smiths reply was that he would be able to retell the general story, but he could not make an exact copy, as god had changed the books?...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I am quite certain that far too many fit the pattern you accurately described. A shame isn't it?

More than just a shame, its downright dangerous to our nation's security and our way of life.
If not corrected it will evetually lead to our destruction.-Tyr

[cadet]

Hmmm... interesting, the founder Joseph Smith Jr was a con man wanted for a huge number of crimes...

[Noir]

Hmmm... interesting, the founder Joseph Smith Jr was a con man wanted for a huge number of crimes...

Again, the only worse example i can think of is $cientology and L. Ron Hubbard. For there was a man who said "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion." Which he said to a public audience,

There are other great quotes too like "Whenever he was talking about being hard up he often used to say that he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion" From a journalist who shared a room with him for a while.

And yet so many genuinely believe in Hubbard and Smith. Once you get over that fact, that the people who believe just don't care, you suddenly realise what a task you have before you.

(random mix of fonts by copypasta from Wikipedia)

[aboutime]

Youi will know when you are my friend when you start calling me Bob.

Did you read Don's book? I have read his book, Bush's book and Cheney's book. Taken in whole, one can learn a lot. Much of what was in Gen. Tommy Franks book was confirmed as true. That not confirmed still was true since Franks was the commander of all forces in those two wars.

We agree on what you said.

Thank you. I will tell you my real name in private PM. Sorry we got off on the wrong foot here. Sounds like You and I share much more than just agreements about topics here.

We're not that far apart on the Real Things that matter. Sad to say. I haven't done enough reading...offline over the last many years. I'll make no excuses, other than admit our financial situation, downgraded with large medical bills not covered by the shrinking, former military health care...has prevented many of the luxuries...even books, from being part of our life.
The computer has become my temporary resting place when I'm not in pain, or unable to sit for long periods.
Enough about that.
I am glad you are here to help us further educate the Un-educated, and Under-educated who defend themselves by calling me, and others the Uneducated...to hide their ignorance.

[Robert A Whit]

More than a shame. Our entire Educational system in this nation is a shameful example of Politics, Money, and Power, all directed toward targets that DO NOT INCLUDE our Children First.

We all know it. And those who claim to be Politicians across this nation know. MONEY TALKS, and Uneducated Americans DO NOT CARE.

Going back to my days in high school, I lived in a farming area. While the downtown was a small city, the city limits went well out and we still had many farms. The high school was built in 1926 and was greek or roman construction. It had very tall columns. It spanned 300 acres and included a farm that is currently another high school.

Anyway, my point is that my family was democrats but I can't tell you what most of the rest of the school was. I recall a pal whose parents were Republicans. Politics was not on the plate for discussion with my pals.

What could you learn at that high school?
You could get an excellent higher math background. you could learn any of 4 languages. We had all sorts of shops. You could learn what you needed to go to a university or take shops. And learn to work on diesel or gasoline products. Radio shop, wood working and many others were there. If you did not want to go to college, you could show up on a job knowing what to do.

We did not learn how to feel. We learned facts. We did not get taught the democrats credo. I can't tell you what party any of my teachers belonged to but one. And he was working as both a teacher and in the state assembly and was a democrat. He did not wear his party on his sleeve.

Today you have kids where their teacher is trying to convert them to socialism. Back then, not at all.

[Robert A Whit]

That quote wasn't by me, though i'd like to respond anyways.

As for translating with other adults around, am i right in saying that a woman, who's name i can't recall, stole a hundred pages or so, and asked Smith to translate them again, as they would be exact copies (what a brilliant woman!) and Smiths reply was that he would be able to retell the general story, but he could not make an exact copy, as god had changed the books?...

If by accident I misquoted you, I truly apologize. It is not my intent to make false claims.

Smith would still have to kept the plates in his possession to retranslate. I never heard that story ever that you told.

Somebody claims Smith was a wanted criminal. Smith was murdered by a mob. I know the story but I never read any stories by the townspeople who murdered him. Maybe they wrote something up to try to justify why they killed him.

I suspect were you to have stole that many pages of the Bible from the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, they would have to also paraphrase it.

[Robert A Whit]

Hmmm... interesting, the founder Joseph Smith Jr was a con man wanted for a huge number of crimes...

Ronald Reagan used to say that Democrats know so very much that just is not true.

[taft2012]

As I said, the philosophy of what is good and what is evil is remarkably complex, and as such has been the subject of countless books through millennia of free thought.

And ofcourse the 'majority' can enact evil. Evil and democracy are not at odds with each other.

Which is why societies have traditionally anchored their values on something "higher" than the mere mechanations of public discourse, be it Christianity, some sort of collectivist theory, Islam, etc.

Western society anchored itself to Christianity, and with the normal growing pains that societies endure, managed to elevate itself to the most civilized and advanced part of the globe.

When there's an earthquake in Japan, Turkey, or Haiti, people suffering on the ground don't look forlornly to the skies asking "When are the Saudis going to get here with aid?" or "When are the Chinese going to arrive?"

They're always waiting for the west, particularly the USA. Because they know the nature of true Christian charity will come to the aid of those suffering.


Sorry, but that "good" doesn't come from anywhere else but Christianity.

[PostmodernProphet]

Kinda hammers home much of what i find off putting about religions, making people think they are weak, wicked, and sick.

that's okay, Noir.....maybe someday you'll also come to realize you're just like the rest of us.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Things like that may sound nice, but really, we have to judge. If we didn't, then nothing would be considered worthy of condemnation, so no, we should judge, and IMO we do it pretty well on the whole in westernised, liberal cultures.

well, there's always arrogance......

[Noir]

Smith would still have to kept the plates in his possession to retranslate. I never heard that story ever that you told.

I shall look up more details on the story, I'm almost certain I have books that reference it happening.



I suspect were you to have stole that many pages of the Bible from the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, they would have to also paraphrase it.

Yes but the point was that he was translating directly from the gold plates. So unless you accept that the actual translation is only a generalised, and paraphrased one, then there would be very few inconsistencies between the two texts.

[PostmodernProphet]

So i deserve eternity in hell because i've hurt a gods feelings?

no, just for disobedience....

[PostmodernProphet]

only to find that at death i'm off to hell because i didn't meet that gods requirements.

and instead, you think it's enough to meet your own?......if you create your own requirements you'd best be in a position to create your own paradise......

[Noir]

Which is why societies have traditionally anchored their values on something "higher" than the mere mechanations of public discourse, be it Christianity, some sort of collectivist theory, Islam, etc.

Western society anchored itself to Christianity, and with the normal growing pains that societies endure, managed to elevate itself to the most civilized and advanced part of the globe.

When there's an earthquake in Japan, Turkey, or Haiti, people suffering on the ground don't look forlornly to the skies asking "When are the Saudis going to get here with aid?" or "When are the Chinese going to arrive?"

They're always waiting for the west, particularly the USA. Because they know the nature of true Christian charity will come to the aid of those suffering.

Sorry, but that "good" doesn't come from anywhere else but Christianity.

If you're of the opinion that good only comes from Christianity then fair enough, you're on the extreme wing of the discussion, just as it would be if I said that only evil steams from Christianity. I haven't much time for talking with extremists, soz.

[Noir]

and instead, you think it's enough to meet your own?......if you create your own requirements you'd best be in a position to create your own paradise......

I'm not conceited enough to think that anything I do on earth should be in pay for some sort of paradise after death. *Everyone* lives by their own moral requirements.

[PostmodernProphet]

Hmmm... interesting, the founder Joseph Smith Jr was a con man wanted for a huge number of crimes...

and today there are millions of people who are making choices to believe that Jesus was the son of God and died to save them from their sins.....which is more important in determining whether someone is a Christian......what the guy who started their religion believed, or what they believe......

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm not conceited enough to think that anything I do on earth should be in pay for some sort of paradise after death. *Everyone* lives by their own moral requirements.

is it conceit to believe that the things we do on earth might result in punishment, then?.....

[Noir]

is it conceit to believe that the things we do on earth might result in punishment, then?.....

Who believes in punishment in an afterlife except those who think they're going to paradise?

[PostmodernProphet]

Who believes in punishment in an afterlife except those who think they're going to paradise?

fair enough.....let me rephrase.....is it conceit to disbelieve?......

[Noir]

fair enough.....let me rephrase.....is it conceit to disbelieve?......

I'm not sure, i don't think the words quiet describe the concept, but that's probably more a failure of language.

Like, there is a difference in saying 'There is a paradise, and I deserve it' and 'I don't think there is a hell'. If there is a hell i may well deserve it, idk, its up to whatever and however it is judged. It would be conceited for me to say 'I don't think there is a hell, but if there is, i don't deserve to go to it.'

So in summery - being an atheist doesn't mean you're not conceited about rewards/punishment in an afterlife. I guess.

[taft2012]

If you're of the opinion that good only comes from Christianity then fair enough, you're on the extreme wing of the discussion, just as it would be if I said that only evil steams from Christianity. I haven't much time for talking with extremists, soz.

Nor do I have time to talk with those who deliberately mischaracterize what I say. I was speaking about a specific good, and indicated as much by putting "that" in quotations.

You removed those quotations and characterized what I said as "that good only only comes from Christianity."

Such deliberate manipulation of language can only come from an extremist.

[avatar4321]

I, having been raised in the LDS church can't recall the part where you claim GOD and Jesus did visit. If this is true, I have to get back to Church since I can't recall ever hearing about that. I know about the restoration of the Priesthood but am not aware of the event you mention at Kirtland.

I shall do what I can do to get caught up. Thanks for the heads up.

You're not familiar with the First Vision where The Father and Son appeared to Joseph Smith to open the dispensation? It's an event missionaries teach in the First discussion.

Christ's appearance to Oliver and Joseph is recorded in D&C 110 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/110?lang=eng).

Appearance of the Father and Son (http://www.ldswitness.com/zebedee-coltrin-sees-god-the-father-and-jesus-christ-at-the-school-of-the-prophets/) to the School of Prophets.

[avatar4321]

Do Mormons accept that Jesus is the Saviour of all mankind? That he is the Son of God and only thru him may a person receive Salvation? If yes then they are Christians if answer is no then they are not. Just that simple.

Yes. The answer to that question will always be Yes.

Which is one of the reasons I have no doubt Christ knows that I follow Him.

[cadet]

and today there are millions of people who are making choices to believe that Jesus was the son of God and died to save them from their sins.....which is more important in determining whether someone is a Christian......what the guy who started their religion believed, or what they believe......


Revelations 19


I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19&version=NIV#fen-NIV-31033a)] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair,“Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

No, i don't think you're right. Twisting the words of the Bible is much worse.
What's that quote... "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[avatar4321]

More than a shame. Our entire Educational system in this nation is a shameful example of Politics, Money, and Power, all directed toward targets that DO NOT INCLUDE our Children First.

We all know it. And those who claim to be Politicians across this nation know. MONEY TALKS, and Uneducated Americans DO NOT CARE.

It truly is shameful. We need to totally change our education system.

[avatar4321]

Hmmm... interesting, the founder Joseph Smith Jr was a con man wanted for a huge number of crimes...

And yet, he wasnt convicted of any.

Is that really the path you want to go down? Im sure there are many anti-Christians who say Jesus was a con man put to death for treason and other crimes. We all know that isn't true.

If the Son of God, being holy, could be slandered as a criminal, how much easier would it be to slander a servant of the Son who is unholy?

Do you want to know Joseph's crimes? He said God spoke from Heaven. He testified that He saw Christ.

[avatar4321]

If by accident I misquoted you, I truly apologize. It is not my intent to make false claims.

Smith would still have to kept the plates in his possession to retranslate. I never heard that story ever that you told.

Somebody claims Smith was a wanted criminal. Smith was murdered by a mob. I know the story but I never read any stories by the townspeople who murdered him. Maybe they wrote something up to try to justify why they killed him.

I suspect were you to have stole that many pages of the Bible from the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, they would have to also paraphrase it.

I'm alittle confused by some of your comments. How can you be a Mormon unaware of the First vision, or any of the other appearances of the Father and the Son? How do you not know about the First 116 pages of the Book of Mormon which were stolen?

[avatar4321]

Ronald Reagan used to say that Democrats know so very much that just is not true.

That's true of alot of people. Regardless of parties.

[avatar4321]

If you're of the opinion that good only comes from Christianity then fair enough, you're on the extreme wing of the discussion, just as it would be if I said that only evil steams from Christianity. I haven't much time for talking with extremists, soz.

So you don't have a response for his points?

[Abbey Marie]

Hmmm... interesting, the founder Joseph Smith Jr was a con man wanted for a huge number of crimes...

Instead of looking for individual problems, I believe we should acknowledge that that which binds us together as Christians is far greater than that which sets us apart from one another. There are enough forces, both of this world and not of it, attacking us, that we don't need to turn on each other.

[cadet]

And yet, he wasnt convicted of any.

Is that really the path you want to go down? Im sure there are many anti-Christians who say Jesus was a con man put to death for treason and other crimes. We all know that isn't true.

If the Son of God, being holy, could be slandered as a criminal, how much easier would it be to slander a servant of the Son who is unholy?

Do you want to know Joseph's crimes? He said God spoke from Heaven. He testified that He saw Christ.

Noir already said it for me. :rolleyes:


There are other great quotes too like "Whenever he was talking about being hard up he often used to say that he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a religion" From a journalist who shared a room with him for a while.

[cadet]

Instead of looking for individual problems, I believe we should acknowledge that that which binds us together as Christians is far greater than that which sets us apart from one another. There are enough forces, both of this world and not of it, attacking us, that we don't need to turn on each other.

The point is, is if you twist the word of god, it's no longer the word of god. It's a mockery. Revelations 16-19 talks about using scripture and twisting it. It sounds good, nothing bad about it, sept it's false.

In my opinion, that part of scripture is happening now.

[aboutime]

cadet. Would you like to share, what you seem to be suggesting about your WEALTH of education concerning Mormon's, and LDS?

Happens that you failed to also include WHAT YEAR, what century, and decade your JOSEPH SMITH accusations took place, in reference to what TODAY's world, and people living today, who worship as Mormon's has to do with Joseph Smith.

After all. If you want to be factual. You should also tell us about Thomas Jefferson, who actually Worshiped, Every Sunday in the U.S. Capitol Building in Washington DC. And people like you, who seem to want to re-write history to meet your blind needs, must also remind us how TERRIBLE Thomas Jefferson was...since he OWNED HUMAN BEINGS...called Slaves.

You should be an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY accuser...before you put your Foot in your Mouth.

[cadet]

cadet. Would you like to share, what you seem to be suggesting about your WEALTH of education concerning Mormon's, and LDS?

Happens that you failed to also include WHAT YEAR, what century, and decade your JOSEPH SMITH accusations took place, in reference to what TODAY's world, and people living today, who worship as Mormon's has to do with Joseph Smith.

After all. If you want to be factual. You should also tell us about Thomas Jefferson, who actually Worshiped, Every Sunday in the U.S. Capitol Building in Washington DC. And people like you, who seem to want to re-write history to meet your blind needs, must also remind us how TERRIBLE Thomas Jefferson was...since he OWNED HUMAN BEINGS...called Slaves.

You should be an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY accuser...before you put your Foot in your Mouth.

1829. Roughly 200 years ago.
"Glass looking" (whatever that is) and less then legal business practices screwing over other farmers, putting them out of home.

Now, do his crimes matter today? No. Does it matter if you're going to devote yourself to what he says? yeah. I'd like to know that the guy who started my religion wasn't some guy who most likely was trying to make bank.

I'm not saying that Mormons are a bunch of con artist crooks. I'm not even saying they're bad people. I'm just saying that there's no way the religion is still part of Christianity after all the changes. Besides, if we're going to say that all you need is Jesus to be christian, we're gonna have to start saying Muslims are Christian too.

Now, i'm not going to get into the slave thing, as i think it's wrong. But you have to remember that not all slave owners were terrible people. The vast majority treated their slaves very nicely, cause they didn't breed quickly, and were expensive as hell.

[aboutime]

1829. Roughly 200 years ago.
"Glass looking" (whatever that is) and less then legal business practices screwing over other farmers, putting them out of home.

Now, do his crimes matter today? No. Does it matter if you're going to devote yourself to what he says? yeah. I'd like to know that the guy who started my religion wasn't some guy who most likely was trying to make bank.

I'm not saying that Mormons are a bunch of con artist crooks. I'm not even saying they're bad people. I'm just saying that there's no way the religion is still part of Christianity after all the changes. Besides, if we're going to say that all you need is Jesus to be christian, we're gonna have to start saying Muslims are Christian too.

Now, i'm not going to get into the slave thing, as i think it's wrong. But you have to remember that not all slave owners were terrible people. The vast majority treated their slaves very nicely, cause they didn't breed quickly, and were expensive as hell.


Good, Non-answer. Go back and read EVERYTHING you first said. Then read what you said above, and tell us what you thought you were saying, as compared to what you Didn't say.

[cadet]

Good, Non-answer. Go back and read EVERYTHING you first said. Then read what you said above, and tell us what you thought you were saying, as compared to what you Didn't say.

Alright, this is what i've been trying to say. I'm not an English major, so bear with me.

The title of the thread is "Requirements to be a Christian", correct?

1. Accept Jesus as your savior.
2. Follow the Bible (not the book of Mormon, the Bible.)
3. Accept that God is an Omnipotent being. (not a man of flesh and blood)
4. God created the universe. (again, not too preexisting matter and put it together)
5. Want to do good deeds, not have to.

I'm simply arguing that Mormonism is not Christianity.

[Noir]

Noir already said it for me. :rolleyes:



Those quotes where by fellow religion maker-uper L Ron Hubbard, just invade there was some confusion there.

[aboutime]

Alright, this is what i've been trying to say. I'm not an English major, so bear with me.

The title of the thread is "Requirements to be a Christian", correct?

1. Accept Jesus as your savior.
2. Follow the Bible (not the book of Mormon, the Bible.)
3. Accept that God is an Omnipotent being. (not a man of flesh and blood)
4. God created the universe. (again, not too preexisting matter and put it together)
5. Want to do good deeds, not have to.

I'm simply arguing that Mormonism is not Christianity.

Why do you feel any need to JUDGE whether what you say is true, or not? Seems to me, as a Christian. No-one has any need, or right to ask me why I am a Christian, nor why I choose to be a Christian.
God Fearing Christians like the two of us, have no business Judging others, even if they are Mormon, and have decided to include themselves in the Christian ways of worship, faith, and treatment of fellow Human beings...without judging them. Which NONE of us can, or should ever do.
In other words. Who are you to question WHY anyone else worships as they do? Be it Mormon, Muslim, Catholic, or Jewish.
It's really none of YOUR'S or MY business.
And that reason alone is why the World's religions are always in turmoil with each other. PEOPLE have to learn to MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS.

[cadet]

Why do you feel any need to JUDGE whether what you say is true, or not? Seems to me, as a Christian. No-one has any need, or right to ask me why I am a Christian, nor why I choose to be a Christian.
God Fearing Christians like the two of us, have no business Judging others, even if they are Mormon, and have decided to include themselves in the Christian ways of worship, faith, and treatment of fellow Human beings...without judging them. Which NONE of us can, or should ever do.
In other words. Who are you to question WHY anyone else worships as they do? Be it Mormon, Muslim, Catholic, or Jewish.
It's really none of YOUR'S or MY business.
And that reason alone is why the World's religions are always in turmoil with each other. PEOPLE have to learn to MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS.

That does it, i'm just going to throw scripture for the rest of this.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+4%3A3-4&version=ESV)
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.


Isaiah 9-16

Those who guide this people mislead them, and those who are guided are led astray.

Phesians 5:6

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things comes the wrath of God on the children of disobedience

Mark 13

5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.

Matthew 7:15

Jesus said to his disciples: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing,but underneath are ravenous wolves.

[aboutime]

That does it, i'm just going to throw scripture for the rest of this.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+4%3A3-4&version=ESV)

Isaiah 9-16


Phesians 5:6


Mark 13


[B][FONT=arial]Matthew 7:15
[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Trebuchet MS]



cadet. Giving up that way says much about you. Come to think of it. It kinda sounds sort of Chickenish of you since I, or anyone with a Bible can do the very same thing you have chosen to do above.

What was it? My telling you the truth, or something I didn't get to say?

By the way. What do all of those verses have to do with Anything in this thread that makes any sense? Unless....
you are directing them at OBAMA and his playing the FALSE PROPHET to Americans.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'm not sure, i don't think the words quiet describe the concept, but that's probably more a failure of language.

Like, there is a difference in saying 'There is a paradise, and I deserve it' and 'I don't think there is a hell'. If there is a hell i may well deserve it, idk, its up to whatever and however it is judged. It would be conceited for me to say 'I don't think there is a hell, but if there is, i don't deserve to go to it.'

So in summery - being an atheist doesn't mean you're not conceited about rewards/punishment in an afterlife. I guess.

to me, it seems that atheists are arguing...."I'm good enough to deserve paradise whether or not I accept or reject what your claimed deity requires....if he isn't willing to accept MY standards he isn't much of a deity".......

[PostmodernProphet]

No, i don't think you're right. Twisting the words of the Bible is much worse.

/shrugs....what if that makes you the false prophet?....after all, the Bible also says that anyone who believes in Him is not condemned (John 3:18).......are you going to add "and doesn't go to a Mormon church"?......

[Noir]

to me, it seems that atheists are arguing...."I'm good enough to deserve paradise whether or not I accept or reject what your claimed deity requires....if he isn't willing to accept MY standards he isn't much of a deity".......

Lolol, okay, i don't know what atheists you know, but apparently they're idiots.

[Robert A Whit]

I'm alittle confused by some of your comments. How can you be a Mormon unaware of the First vision, or any of the other appearances of the Father and the Son? How do you not know about the First 116 pages of the Book of Mormon which were stolen?

I am well aware of the first vision. That was by Moroni. I apologize to anybody that thinks I know of a time that Joseph was visited by the Father and Son.

I have not heard till yesterday of 116 pages being stolen.

I was baptized and hold the priesthood is how I can be a Mormon.

[aboutime]

to me, it seems that atheists are arguing...."I'm good enough to deserve paradise whether or not I accept or reject what your claimed deity requires....if he isn't willing to accept MY standards he isn't much of a deity".......

PostmodernProphet. I was under the impression that Atheists didn't believe in Paradise.

[Robert A Whit]

1829. Roughly 200 years ago.
"Glass looking" (whatever that is) and less then legal business practices screwing over other farmers, putting them out of home.

Now, do his crimes matter today? No. Does it matter if you're going to devote yourself to what he says? yeah. I'd like to know that the guy who started my religion wasn't some guy who most likely was trying to make bank.

I'm not saying that Mormons are a bunch of con artist crooks. I'm not even saying they're bad people. I'm just saying that there's no way the religion is still part of Christianity after all the changes. Besides, if we're going to say that all you need is Jesus to be christian, we're gonna have to start saying Muslims are Christian too.

Now, i'm not going to get into the slave thing, as i think it's wrong. But you have to remember that not all slave owners were terrible people. The vast majority treated their slaves very nicely, cause they didn't breed quickly, and were expensive as hell.

Enough of libeling my church with such talk.

We believe this. Jesus is the son of God and infact is a God as is Adam and Eve and many others. God has absolutely awesome power. I can't explain how much power he has since it compares to no other power in this vast universe. I don't know if Jesus can make stars, but God did. I surmise that since Jesus is God's son, he has the same sort of power.

I spent time to quote you the last pasages of the Book of Mormon and damned this forum, I suddenly found that I was turned back into a guest and the goblins had eliminated my prose.

I am going to resort to composing such things on Word then I will have my own record to post.

In that prose, I pointed out that Joseph being a youth was hardly a person trying to make bank as you claim.

My church has this "bad habit" of not paying our clergy. Unlike many if not most other churches, our leaders don't get rich doing this job. Bishops all over the world devote a full day to a job for pay, then taking time that otherwise might be family time, they devote to helping others of our faith. Do you know that even with the wealth of our church, the Missionaries are family funded? If you want to get rich as a church leader, try some other church.

[Robert A Whit]

Alright, this is what i've been trying to say. I'm not an English major, so bear with me.

The title of the thread is "Requirements to be a Christian", correct?

1. Accept Jesus as your savior.
2. Follow the Bible (not the book of Mormon, the Bible.)
3. Accept that God is an Omnipotent being. (not a man of flesh and blood)
4. God created the universe. (again, not too preexisting matter and put it together)
5. Want to do good deeds, not have to.

I'm simply arguing that Mormonism is not Christianity.

1. We do.
2. We do. Clearly you do not comprehend what the Book of Mormon actually is and I doubt you understand what the so called Bible is. Much of the OT and NT is pure history. Though not cross verified very well against other histories, it remains as much history and in this you should glean a lot that is useful to manage your way to the good area of the afterlife.
3. We do. When we speak of God as much like a man, it is because of what was said in the OT and NT. For instance in the easily accepted common Bible you learn that God created man in his own image.
4. Precisely what we LDS believe.
5. Clearly in the Book of Mormon you can learn that we do in fact believe that accepting Christ who shed his blood for us and accepting in full faith GOD, why you get the benefits you speak of in shallow terms.

[cadet]

Alright, took a bit to read through the bible.

Sorry. Is as much as I can say.

Ran into this verse...

Romans 14

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to lifeso that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28291a)]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28292b)]

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

(in a nut shell if you don't want to read that, don't worry about differing views, we'll find out when we're dead.)

[aboutime]

Alright, took a bit to read through the bible.

Sorry. Is as much as I can say.

Ran into this verse...

Romans 14


(in a nut shell if you don't want to read that, don't worry about differing views, we'll find out when we're dead.)


WHAT is your intent in all of this cadet? What do you think you are accomplishing? Why are you so angry, when all you needed to do is tell the rest of us, whom....by the way, have no problem admitting we are Christians too! That you have a hatred for Romney, and most of that hatred is directed his way because...He is a Mormon. And you have a large HARD-ON for Romney because he isn't afraid to use the same words You, and I use as Christians.

Why cadet? Why?

[Trigg]

WHAT is your intent in all of this cadet? What do you think you are accomplishing? Why are you so angry, when all you needed to do is tell the rest of us, whom....by the way, have no problem admitting we are Christians too! That you have a hatred for Romney, and most of that hatred is directed his way because...He is a Mormon. And you have a large HARD-ON for Romney because he isn't afraid to use the same words You, and I use as Christians.

Why cadet? Why?

I wasn't going to jump into this, but you are going to far.

Cadet has already voted.....for Romney. He doesn't hate anyone, he disagrees with the Mormon religion.

[Robert A Whit]

What Cadet believes or does not believe is not of my concern.

I will state my beliefs and he can do the same.

I think we all would be raving mad to not question all of our own beliefs. Cadet seems to not wish to question his own beliefs and in my opinion that is his fatal flaw.

He already thinks he knows all he needs to know about my Church. I doubt he has so much as attended our services to try to learn what really happens. He would enter humble services not arrogant ones.

Most of the Christian world says quite smugly that each word in the two testaments is totally accurate. This causes them to get their tits in the wringer when it comes to science.

If they accept the two testaments as 100 percent accurate, they then claim the Earth can't be over 7,000 years old and that in their belief system each animal and plant was created about 7,000 years ago and of course this makes science laugh.

We Mormons accept the Bible as it is ACCURATELY TRANSLATED.

When I used to attend Church, and I admit that it was as a Teen, I did not learn each of our doctrines. DC as quoted by a poster showed me something new today. The part about Kirtland and that Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith. I don't know why, but I either forgot that or never heard of it.

My science background sides with evolution.

I really prefer to speak of Abiogenesis though and not evolution. Abiogenesis is the start of life. Why mess around with evolution when the greater mystery is the beginning of all life forms?

Evolution is seen in your own family. Naturally you don't all look the same or people would get very confused and wonder which of the males was John and which was Ralph and so forth.

We look different. Thsi itself shows evolution in operation. The son is not the spitting image of the father. Thus the changes are evolution. As t0 claims you started out as a bacterium and now you are human, that part is very tough for me to swallow. Some end that argument by the old human and chimp argument. They may not realize that the full message of Darwinism is you came from bacteria. They would be the earliest known life form or perhaps a plant was first. Bacteria has left a vast record. We can test for it's beginnings.

I believe that the Bible is loaded with stories. That the men who authored those stories thought as men of those eras thought. They could not even imagine what a TV or cell phone would be like. They did not think in modern man terms. We have to account for that major problem. Nor can we very well think in Moses terms. We sure have a tough time with Adam's terms. To simply use the Bible as if all it says can be verified in the scientific method is in my view the wrong thing to do.

Thus you must extract the true nuggets of the Bible.

Can anybody prove that God did not create life? Not so far. Can I prove he did it?

Well, I don't believe in magic so if somebody ever looks around and finds somebody creating life, I have to go to what makes most sense. Common sense does not tell me that life just was an accident and it created itself. Life has a special quality to it. Some life, human life, thinks. I tend to doubt your dog is concerned one bit with the Bible nor evolution.

Not all life is equal.

Anyway, we can further develop this as it warrants.

If some of you get confused, forgive me. I know my thought process. What I understand just might confuse you and again, I am sorry. It's my fault that you may not understand. I take the blame.

[Nukeman]

What Cadet believes or does not believe is not of my concern.

I will state my beliefs and he can do the same.

I think we all would be raving mad to not question all of our own beliefs. Cadet seems to not wish to question his own beliefs and in my opinion that is his fatal flaw.

He already thinks he knows all he needs to know about my Church. I doubt he has so much as attended our services to try to learn what really happens. He would enter humble services not arrogant ones.

Most of the Christian world says quite smugly that each word in the two testaments is totally accurate. This causes them to get their tits in the wringer when it comes to science.

If they accept the two testaments as 100 percent accurate, they then claim the Earth can't be over 7,000 years old and that in their belief system each animal and plant was created about 7,000 years ago and of course this makes science laugh.

We Mormons accept the Bible as it is ACCURATELY TRANSLATED.

When I used to attend Church, and I admit that it was as a Teen, I did not learn each of our doctrines. DC as quoted by a poster showed me something new today. The part about Kirtland and that Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith. I don't know why, but I either forgot that or never heard of it.

My science background sides with evolution.

I really prefer to speak of Abiogenesis though and not evolution. Abiogenesis is the start of life. Why mess around with evolution when the greater mystery is the beginning of all life forms?

Evolution is seen in your own family. Naturally you don't all look the same or people would get very confused and wonder which of the males was John and which was Ralph and so forth.

We look different. Thsi itself shows evolution in operation. The son is not the spitting image of the father. Thus the changes are evolution. As t0 claims you started out as a bacterium and now you are human, that part is very tough for me to swallow. Some end that argument by the old human and chimp argument. They may not realize that the full message of Darwinism is you came from bacteria. They would be the earliest known life form or perhaps a plant was first. Bacteria has left a vast record. We can test for it's beginnings.

I believe that the Bible is loaded with stories. That the men who authored those stories thought as men of those eras thought. They could not even imagine what a TV or cell phone would be like. They did not think in modern man terms. We have to account for that major problem. Nor can we very well think in Moses terms. We sure have a tough time with Adam's terms. To simply use the Bible as if all it says can be verified in the scientific method is in my view the wrong thing to do.

Thus you must extract the true nuggets of the Bible.

Can anybody prove that God did not create life? Not so far. Can I prove he did it?

Well, I don't believe in magic so if somebody ever looks around and finds somebody creating life, I have to go to what makes most sense. Common sense does not tell me that life just was an accident and it created itself. Life has a special quality to it. Some life, human life, thinks. I tend to doubt your dog is concerned one bit with the Bible nor evolution.

Not all life is equal.

Anyway, we can further develop this as it warrants.

If some of you get confused, forgive me. I know my thought process. What I understand just might confuse you and again, I am sorry. It's my fault that you may not understand. I take the blame.Umm did you miss post 188.. i believe he may have found something that made him think about what he was posting... I think through your years you would agree that a lot of times things in print do not come across in the same manner as spoken, inflection and question are not as easily conveyed.. Just my observation..

[avatar4321]

Instead of looking for individual problems, I believe we should acknowledge that that which binds us together as Christians is far greater than that which sets us apart from one another. There are enough forces, both of this world and not of it, attacking us, that we don't need to turn on each other.

I conquor with this sentiment. I hope we can all work together and be brethren.

[Robert A Whit]

Umm did you miss post 188.. i believe he may have found something that made him think about what he was posting... I think through your years you would agree that a lot of times things in print do not come across in the same manner as spoken, inflection and question are not as easily conveyed.. Just my observation..

I shall check 188.

I agree entirely with your final point. I hope you award me with the same tolerance that you awarded the other person.

[avatar4321]

Noir already said it for me. :rolleyes:

If that was his goal, he failed miserably, dying broke, murdered because of his faith doesn't seem like a good way to make money.

Joseph's words and actions also betray theory of his motivations. He tried running a shop once. Failed at it miserably because he kept giving away his goods to those in need. That doesn't sound like someone motivated to make money.

Heck, the scriptures that were revealed to him even said he would not be successful making wealth and that it wasnt his calling to make money.

[Robert A Whit]

No, I had not missed post 188. I had digested every word of the post.

[avatar4321]

1829. Roughly 200 years ago.
"Glass looking" (whatever that is) and less then legal business practices screwing over other farmers, putting them out of home.

Now, do his crimes matter today? No. Does it matter if you're going to devote yourself to what he says? yeah. I'd like to know that the guy who started my religion wasn't some guy who most likely was trying to make bank.

I'm not saying that Mormons are a bunch of con artist crooks. I'm not even saying they're bad people. I'm just saying that there's no way the religion is still part of Christianity after all the changes. Besides, if we're going to say that all you need is Jesus to be christian, we're gonna have to start saying Muslims are Christian too.

Now, i'm not going to get into the slave thing, as i think it's wrong. But you have to remember that not all slave owners were terrible people. The vast majority treated their slaves very nicely, cause they didn't breed quickly, and were expensive as hell.

There isn't a crime called glass looking. and joseph was never found guilty of anything.

[avatar4321]

That does it, i'm just going to throw scripture for the rest of this.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+4%3A3-4&version=ESV)



Isaiah 9-16


Phesians 5:6
[COLOR=#001320][FONT=Arial]

Mark 13


[B][FONT=arial]Matthew 7:15


I particularly like the last one there. "Beware of false prophets". Not "Beware of anyone who ever claims to be a Prophet." Just "Beware of false prophets."

So what about the true Prophets? Do we need to beware of them? i should hope not. In fact, Paul stated: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" (Eph 4:11-13 (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/eph/4?lang=eng))

So we know from the scriptures that there are false prophets. But we also know that Christ has sent us True prophets (among other offices) to perfect the Saint, to work the ministry, to edify the Church until we are all United. So the question becomes Who are those true prophets? and how do we recognize them? And how can we tell whether Joseph Smith is one?

The Answer is given in Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

So what are the Fruits of Joseph Smith's ministry?

1) The Book of Mormon. You can read it for yourself. You can study the doctrines in the Book of Mormon. You cant taste of the fruits, whether they are good or bad. You can experiment on the teachings and take the Book of Mormon challenge
2) The other revelations he provided: Same as above. You can experiment on them as well.
3) Look at the lives of the people who have learned from Him

I would add look at his own life. But he has been maligned so much if you can't tell what's accurate or not it's difficult to discern the truth of who he was without the Spirit.

Number one, in particular, is completely objective. The Book of Mormon is there. You can touch it. You can read it. You don't have to discern whether someone else is telling the truth about someone. You can simply study the doctrines and talk to the Lord about it and He can and will show you it's true.

With the Lord all things are possible.

[Kathianne]

I'll not get into an argument of knowing who's right or wrong. Not Protestants, nor Catholics, nor Mormons, nor Jews, nor Muslims.

It seems to me that the message of God was clear. It's people thinking they 'know' God's will that pervert it.

[avatar4321]

I am well aware of the first vision. That was by Moroni. I apologize to anybody that thinks I know of a time that Joseph was visited by the Father and Son.

I have not heard till yesterday of 116 pages being stolen.

I was baptized and hold the priesthood is how I can be a Mormon.

But Moroni's visit wasn't the First vision.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

I don't doubt that you've been baptized or hold the Priesthood. I am just not understanding some of the things you are saying. What office in the Priesthood are you?

[avatar4321]

Enough of libeling my church with such talk.

We believe this. Jesus is the son of God and infact is a God as is Adam and Eve and many others. God has absolutely awesome power. I can't explain how much power he has since it compares to no other power in this vast universe. I don't know if Jesus can make stars, but God did. I surmise that since Jesus is God's son, he has the same sort of power.

I spent time to quote you the last pasages of the Book of Mormon and damned this forum, I suddenly found that I was turned back into a guest and the goblins had eliminated my prose.

I am going to resort to composing such things on Word then I will have my own record to post.

In that prose, I pointed out that Joseph being a youth was hardly a person trying to make bank as you claim.

My church has this "bad habit" of not paying our clergy. Unlike many if not most other churches, our leaders don't get rich doing this job. Bishops all over the world devote a full day to a job for pay, then taking time that otherwise might be family time, they devote to helping others of our faith. Do you know that even with the wealth of our church, the Missionaries are family funded? If you want to get rich as a church leader, try some other church.

Okay. Now I am starting to doubt that you've been baptized because that makes no freakin sense.

[avatar4321]

Alright, took a bit to read through the bible.

Sorry. Is as much as I can say.

Ran into this verse...

Romans 14


(in a nut shell if you don't want to read that, don't worry about differing views, we'll find out when we're dead.)

I am scratching my head a little. I guess I dont know why you think this is relevant. Maybe it's being sick lately. My head hasnt been working properly.

But why wait till we are dead, when we can ask God now and learn from the Spirit?

[avatar4321]

WHAT is your intent in all of this cadet? What do you think you are accomplishing? Why are you so angry, when all you needed to do is tell the rest of us, whom....by the way, have no problem admitting we are Christians too! That you have a hatred for Romney, and most of that hatred is directed his way because...He is a Mormon. And you have a large HARD-ON for Romney because he isn't afraid to use the same words You, and I use as Christians.

Why cadet? Why?

I don't know that I've seen Cadet angry. He just doesn't believe Mormons are Christians. An opinion he is free to hold. Not sure what this has to do Romney since we are in a thread talking about being a Christian.

[avatar4321]

I wasn't going to jump into this, but you are going to far.

Cadet has already voted.....for Romney. He doesn't hate anyone, he disagrees with the Mormon religion.

That was my understanding as well.

[avatar4321]

What Cadet believes or does not believe is not of my concern.

I will state my beliefs and he can do the same.

I think we all would be raving mad to not question all of our own beliefs. Cadet seems to not wish to question his own beliefs and in my opinion that is his fatal flaw.

He already thinks he knows all he needs to know about my Church. I doubt he has so much as attended our services to try to learn what really happens. He would enter humble services not arrogant ones.

Most of the Christian world says quite smugly that each word in the two testaments is totally accurate. This causes them to get their tits in the wringer when it comes to science.

If they accept the two testaments as 100 percent accurate, they then claim the Earth can't be over 7,000 years old and that in their belief system each animal and plant was created about 7,000 years ago and of course this makes science laugh.

We Mormons accept the Bible as it is ACCURATELY TRANSLATED.

When I used to attend Church, and I admit that it was as a Teen, I did not learn each of our doctrines. DC as quoted by a poster showed me something new today. The part about Kirtland and that Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith. I don't know why, but I either forgot that or never heard of it.

My science background sides with evolution.

I really prefer to speak of Abiogenesis though and not evolution. Abiogenesis is the start of life. Why mess around with evolution when the greater mystery is the beginning of all life forms?

Evolution is seen in your own family. Naturally you don't all look the same or people would get very confused and wonder which of the males was John and which was Ralph and so forth.

We look different. Thsi itself shows evolution in operation. The son is not the spitting image of the father. Thus the changes are evolution. As t0 claims you started out as a bacterium and now you are human, that part is very tough for me to swallow. Some end that argument by the old human and chimp argument. They may not realize that the full message of Darwinism is you came from bacteria. They would be the earliest known life form or perhaps a plant was first. Bacteria has left a vast record. We can test for it's beginnings.

I believe that the Bible is loaded with stories. That the men who authored those stories thought as men of those eras thought. They could not even imagine what a TV or cell phone would be like. They did not think in modern man terms. We have to account for that major problem. Nor can we very well think in Moses terms. We sure have a tough time with Adam's terms. To simply use the Bible as if all it says can be verified in the scientific method is in my view the wrong thing to do.

Thus you must extract the true nuggets of the Bible.

Can anybody prove that God did not create life? Not so far. Can I prove he did it?

Well, I don't believe in magic so if somebody ever looks around and finds somebody creating life, I have to go to what makes most sense. Common sense does not tell me that life just was an accident and it created itself. Life has a special quality to it. Some life, human life, thinks. I tend to doubt your dog is concerned one bit with the Bible nor evolution.

Not all life is equal.

Anyway, we can further develop this as it warrants.

If some of you get confused, forgive me. I know my thought process. What I understand just might confuse you and again, I am sorry. It's my fault that you may not understand. I take the blame.

I think I'm alittle less confused now. You attended Church as a teen. does that mean you havent since? am I understanding that correctly?

[avatar4321]

I'll not get into an argument of knowing who's right or wrong. Not Protestants, nor Catholics, nor Mormons, nor Jews, nor Muslims.

It seems to me that the message of God was clear. It's people thinking they 'know' God's will that pervert it.

The only way we can know God's will is to study the scriptures and through revelation. And we can't know what God has and hasnt taught anyone else.

We all just need to live up to as much light and knowledge that we've recieved.

[Kathianne]

The only way we can know God's will is to study the scriptures and through revelation. And we can't know what God has and hasnt taught anyone else.

We all just need to live up to as much light and knowledge that we've recieved.

Avatar, that's your opinion and I respect it. Do the same.

[Nukeman]

I shall check 188.

I agree entirely with your final point. I hope you award me with the same tolerance that you awarded the other person.Definitely.. When it comes to religion I am of the belief that as long as you believe and live a honorable and just life I don't care what path you take as long as you take a path.. I think all the paths lead to the final destination we all seek It's a different route there...

I think that Cadet is still attempting to find solid footing and at times that can be difficult, I would say that with your years on this earth you have come to know a great many things that he has not yet experienced.. I know that things in print (especially a message board) can come across other than the intent. Than when things escalate to the point that neither side wished to back down you have problems. I believe in post 188 he found the Biblical quote that has him reevaluating his stance and that is what was meant by his apology to you and Avatar, coupled with the quote.. IMHO

Remember our young are there to question us and to learn from our experiences, sometimes that can be a painful process but in the end it usually turns out good!!:beer:

[avatar4321]

Avatar, that's your opinion and I respect it. Do the same.

kathi I will always respect your opinion, my friend.

[avatar4321]

I'm a bit disappointed. This thread's become very contentious and I know that was not my intention in participating in it. I was hoping for a more uplifting and edifying discussion. I had no intention of upsetting anyone or hurting anyone's feelings so I apologize to you if I have. I hope that we can continue to have discussions and perhaps seek the Spirit to edify one another instead of tearing each other down whether intentional or not.

[Robert A Whit]

I'll not get into an argument of knowing who's right or wrong. Not Protestants, nor Catholics, nor Mormons, nor Jews, nor Muslims.

It seems to me that the message of God was clear. It's people thinking they 'know' God's will that pervert it.

Did you intend to contradict yourself?

To wit: You stated that the message is clear.

Then you also claimed that if one says they know Gods will, they perverted it.

I can't and won't ever try to speak for GOD. I only defend against those that run down my Church and most of the time they plainly are just ignorant.

[Robert A Whit]

But Moroni's visit wasn't the First vision.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

I don't doubt that you've been baptized or hold the Priesthood. I am just not understanding some of the things you are saying. What office in the Priesthood are you?

When Joseph Smith gave his account, he named the first person that appeared to him and the name is Moroni. Moroni is so important his statue is on the top of the Salt Lake Temple and perhaps all other Temples.

My office, given I attended all the time until about the age of 18 is Priest. I realize I should be higher but facts are facts. Feb 12, 1956 is the exact day of the office.

[cadet]

What Cadet believes or does not believe is not of my concern.

I will state my beliefs and he can do the same.

I think we all would be raving mad to not question all of our own beliefs. Cadet seems to not wish to question his own beliefs and in my opinion that is his fatal flaw.


I just questioned my beliefs. I found a few passages about upholding Christians, all they said was to accept that they accepted Jesus and continue to praise with them.

And for your information, me being a year old christian, i'd had quite alot of my life to look into alot of other religions. I've read bits of the Koran, looked into buddism a bit, etc. But the only one i felt anything in was Christianity. I cried like a babe during my first service here at college.



He already thinks he knows all he needs to know about my Church. I doubt he has so much as attended our services to try to learn what really happens. He would enter humble services not arrogant ones.

Most of the Christian world says quite smugly that each word in the two testaments is totally accurate. This causes them to get their tits in the wringer when it comes to science.

If they accept the two testaments as 100 percent accurate, they then claim the Earth can't be over 7,000 years old and that in their belief system each animal and plant was created about 7,000 years ago and of course this makes science laugh.

The TRUTH, isn't the TRUTH? Is that what you're saying?



We Mormons accept the Bible as it is ACCURATELY TRANSLATED.

When I used to attend Church, and I admit that it was as a Teen, I did not learn each of our doctrines. DC as quoted by a poster showed me something new today. The part about Kirtland and that Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith. I don't know why, but I either forgot that or never heard of it.

My science background sides with evolution.

I really prefer to speak of Abiogenesis though and not evolution. Abiogenesis is the start of life. Why mess around with evolution when the greater mystery is the beginning of all life forms?

Evolution is seen in your own family. Naturally you don't all look the same or people would get very confused and wonder which of the males was John and which was Ralph and so forth.

We look different. Thsi itself shows evolution in operation. The son is not the spitting image of the father. Thus the changes are evolution. As t0 claims you started out as a bacterium and now you are human, that part is very tough for me to swallow. Some end that argument by the old human and chimp argument. They may not realize that the full message of Darwinism is you came from bacteria. They would be the earliest known life form or perhaps a plant was first. Bacteria has left a vast record. We can test for it's beginnings.

I believe that the Bible is loaded with stories. That the men who authored those stories thought as men of those eras thought. They could not even imagine what a TV or cell phone would be like. They did not think in modern man terms. We have to account for that major problem. Nor can we very well think in Moses terms. We sure have a tough time with Adam's terms. To simply use the Bible as if all it says can be verified in the scientific method is in my view the wrong thing to do.

Thus you must extract the true nuggets of the Bible.

Can anybody prove that God did not create life? Not so far. Can I prove he did it?


Hopefully, it's in black an white that Adam was created by dust.



Well, I don't believe in magic so if somebody ever looks around and finds somebody creating life, I have to go to what makes most sense.


Frankenstein.



Common sense does not tell me that life just was an accident and it created itself. Life has a special quality to it. Some life, human life, thinks. I tend to doubt your dog is concerned one bit with the Bible nor evolution.

Not all life is equal.

Anyway, we can further develop this as it warrants.

If some of you get confused, forgive me. I know my thought process. What I understand just might confuse you and again, I am sorry. It's my fault that you may not understand. I take the blame.

[avatar4321]

When Joseph Smith gave his account, he named the first person that appeared to him and the name is Moroni. Moroni is so important his statue is on the top of the Salt Lake Temple and perhaps all other Temples.

My office, given I attended all the time until about the age of 18 is Priest. I realize I should be higher but facts are facts. Feb 12, 1956 is the exact day of the office.

But I just posted a link of Joseph writing the First vision in his own words. and then later about Moroni's visit.

[Abbey Marie]

WHAT is your intent in all of this cadet? What do you think you are accomplishing? Why are you so angry, when all you needed to do is tell the rest of us, whom....by the way, have no problem admitting we are Christians too! That you have a hatred for Romney, and most of that hatred is directed his way because...He is a Mormon. And you have a large HARD-ON for Romney because he isn't afraid to use the same words You, and I use as Christians.

Why cadet? Why?

Why do you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is a lib, or in this particular case, anti-Romney? There is nothing in this thread (or any other, IIRC) to indicate that about Cadet. Not everything is black and white, nor about politics.

[avatar4321]

When Joseph Smith gave his account, he named the first person that appeared to him and the name is Moroni. Moroni is so important his statue is on the top of the Salt Lake Temple and perhaps all other Temples.

My office, given I attended all the time until about the age of 18 is Priest. I realize I should be higher but facts are facts. Feb 12, 1956 is the exact day of the office.

Thought I'd quote from what Joseph wrote in the History of the Church. This is just a portion of where we seem to have a disagreement.



After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. (Joseph Smith - History 1:15-20)


You really haven't heard that before? I am surprised I must say. But if it's been as long as it has since you've last been to Church, I can see how that might have happened.

Were you raised Mormon? Have you not been attending for a long time? I am curious. Though I suppose if you don't want to talk about it that much on the messageboard in public, I could understand.

[Robert A Whit]

But I just posted a link of Joseph writing the First vision in his own words. and then later about Moroni's visit.

So sorry you had to do that.

I on the other hand just opened up my Book of Mormon and read what it said. I had read it ahead of my first post but when you claimed it was not Moroni, I simply double checked and of course i am correct.

[Robert A Whit]

Thought I'd quote from what Joseph wrote in the History of the Church. This is just a portion of where we seem to have a disagreement.




You really haven't heard that before? I am surprised I must say. But if it's been as long as it has since you've last been to Church, I can see how that might have happened.

Were you raised Mormon? Have you not been attending for a long time? I am curious. Though I suppose if you don't want to talk about it that much on the messageboard in public, I could understand.

I have been referring to my Book of Mormon and how it came to pass. But after reading what you wrote, that does sound like the story i grew up knowing as to how he was told not to join other churches. I realized just now that my account is later on than your account. So yes, i do recall your story.

As a child, mom remarried a Mormon man. Prior to that, I was not attending any church. Dad died in Dec 1995 and that is the last time I was in the church for his service. My youngest sister remains very active in her ward. I was a pretty steady attender until I bought the first new car late in 1956. Mom and Dad at the time also was not going to church quite as much and since I could go as i pleased, I just got out of the habit. Over the years, they moved 5 hrs north into the CA redwoods and there they were very active. I was sealed in the Manti Temple to my parents when I was 17 when they got the temple marriage performed.

My family was among the founders of Salt Lake City and in that city we have a time capsule that is opened each half century. The last time it was opened, we were able to Xerox documents dating to the 1800s that had lots of rich church history in them.

[Noir]

Smith would still have to kept the plates in his possession to retranslate. I never heard that story ever that you told.

I suspect were you to have stole that many pages of the Bible from the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, they would have to also paraphrase it.

Small wiki quote regarding the story -


Harris, prompted by his wife, Lucy Harris, repeatedly requested that Smith lend him the current pages that had been translated. Smith reluctantly acceded to Harris' requests. Lucy Harris is thought to have stolen the first 116 pages.[18] After the loss, Smith recorded that he had lost the ability to translate, and that Moroni had taken back the plates to be returned only after Smith repented.[19][20][21][22] Smith later stated that God allowed him to resume translation, but directed that he begin translating another part of the plates. In 1829, with the assistance of Oliver Cowdery, work on the Book of Mormon recommenced, and was completed in a remarkably short period (April–June 1829).

That doesn't sound suspicious at all.

[tailfins]

Small wiki quote regarding the story -



That doesn't sound suspicious at all.

I consider the Mormons just as lost as you are.

[PostmodernProphet]

Lolol, okay, i don't know what atheists you know, but apparently they're idiots.

???....I thought that was a prerequisite......

[PostmodernProphet]

PostmodernProphet. I was under the impression that Atheists didn't believe in Paradise.

I've been debating with atheists on the internet for over a decade.......there are definite patterns that belie the platitudes.....they will claim that they believe there is nothing after death........but then, you get the famous "I would rather rule in hell than serve a deity like that in heaven" line....delivered in ignorance that they might actually qualify for leadership there, of course, but still revealing of their underlying uncertainty......or the equally common complaint about the arrogance of Christianity in thinking there is only one path to paradise.....does this not demonstrate a belief that there might actually be somewhere to go after death.....merely objecting to the possibility there's a standard they cannot meet on their own terms?.......

so I don't buy it.....atheists will tell you they don't believe in paradise but they haven't convinced me or themselves of it yet.....

[PostmodernProphet]

But why wait till we are dead, when we can ask God now and learn from the Spirit?

because people who did still hold a variety of opinions on what he said......if you accept Jesus as your savior we can get together in paradise and share notes on baptism and popes and transcendental mitigation over a bottle of wine......until then it doesn't matter that much.....


I've read bits of the Koran, looked into buddism a bit, etc. But the only one i felt anything in was Christianity. I cried like a babe during my first service here at college.

well good....then you can join avatar and I at that table....

[aboutime]

I've been debating with atheists on the internet for over a decade.......there are definite patterns that belie the platitudes.....they will claim that they believe there is nothing after death........but then, you get the famous "I would rather rule in hell than serve a deity like that in heaven" line....delivered in ignorance that they might actually qualify for leadership there, of course, but still revealing of their underlying uncertainty......or the equally common complaint about the arrogance of Christianity in thinking there is only one path to paradise.....does this not demonstrate a belief that there might actually be somewhere to go after death.....merely objecting to the possibility there's a standard they cannot meet on their own terms?.......

so I don't buy it.....atheists will tell you they don't believe in paradise but they haven't convinced me or themselves of it yet.....


PostmodernProphet. Instead of getting buried in all of this bantering over the Foolish idea that someone has to accept a phony requirement to be a Christian, for whatever sick reasons the question was asked in the first place.

I merely remember...I believe it was 1955, when I went to a Sunday movie with both of my parents, my older sister, and little brother.
The movie was "THE ROBE" With Victor Mature, and Debra Kerr.
But the one, and only...most important line I heard, and have always remembered. Took place right after Jesus died on the Cross. I remember the loud, almost deafening Thunder clap, with the music as the Last Words of Jesus from the cross...in the movie, were...

"FATHER, FORGIVE THEM. FOR THEY KNOW NOT...WHAT THEY DO!"

Those words are a reminder to me. And I follow them as real whenever anyone attempts to question my faith, or my honesty.

[cadet]

I've been debating with atheists on the internet for over a decade.......there are definite patterns that belie the platitudes.....they will claim that they believe there is nothing after death........but then, you get the famous "I would rather rule in hell than serve a deity like that in heaven" line....delivered in ignorance that they might actually qualify for leadership there, of course, but still revealing of their underlying uncertainty......or the equally common complaint about the arrogance of Christianity in thinking there is only one path to paradise.....does this not demonstrate a belief that there might actually be somewhere to go after death.....merely objecting to the possibility there's a standard they cannot meet on their own terms?.......

so I don't buy it.....atheists will tell you they don't believe in paradise but they haven't convinced me or themselves of it yet.....


I was reminded of this phrase while i read this.
"Communist until you're rich, feminist until you're married, atheist until the plane starts falling."

[aboutime]

I was reminded of this phrase while i read this.
"Communist until you're rich, feminist until you're married, atheist until the plane starts falling."



cadet. That also applies to soldiers, and Marines in Fox holes under fire from others who are trying to kill them.

[Robert A Whit]

Small wiki quote regarding the story -



That doesn't sound suspicious at all.

Sooner or later I will get the hang of obtaining all the material so I can both quote it and then discuss point by point. Sorry but somebody will have to read message 219 if they don't understand this message. Noir observed the above about missing pages of the Book of Mormon.

Here is what I do not understand. I have yet to see any posters challenge the Koran. I am talking of going at the book over the text?

Also, do they challenge the validity of the Old Testament based on nobody having clue one where the ten commandments are today? What about the Ark of the Covenant? Matter of fact, though I believe the teachings of Jesus and believe he is our savior, I must ask the non believers, or believers, just where are the Roman records of that period by the Romans? I have plenty of Roman history. I have studied Roman history trying to glean that they knew a person called Jesus. One *historian happens to mention a guy named Jesus but his history was nearly a hundred years later. Romans of Herods day kept very good records. *(Josephus)

I want to have some person explain to me why they get all fluffed up over the Book of Mormon to the point they pretty much attack it.

I am assailed with stories of hoodwinking. Some woman wanted to trick Joseph so she had her husband use a ruse so she could lay her hands on the text.

How many of you know of the 11 witness to what Joseph Smith did?

I will say this in defense of my church.

I have gone to various churches in the span of 74 years. I have seen some strange things go on. But never in the LDS church. I was taken to Patton's church in Oakland CA as a kid and if you want wierd, that was wierd. And Patton later was convicted of federal crimes connected to his church. To this day, there is still that Patton school and church in Oakland. I won't bore you with all the details that I saw when my cousin roped me into riding the bus and going to that church. Till he died, my cousin was loyal to that church. Patton for instance had to know who had money and who did not. I recall vividly that around 1946 or 47, watching Patton take money from his audience. All he did was say ... GOD SAYS FOR YOU TO GIVE THE CHURCH $5.00 and some guy would take out his five dollars and hand it over. Patton then barked, GOD SAYS FOR YOU TO GIVE THE CHURCH $100.00 and the sucker pulled out the bill and handed it over. I mean it was awful.

I have also gone to Methodist churches with family. I enjoyed their holiday shows. But Mormons have them too. I can't say I was alarmed in their churches.

I have been married once to a Jehovah Witness. Talk about a wild ride. I did not like that church one bit. I felt it was a cult of some sort. To me, that is what a Cult feels like.

My church at no time has such a feeling.

My church also does not bilk you of your money merely because you show up for services.

Some of you, should you attend would assume you would need your donation in reach when we pass the plate.

Wrong. We do not pass any plate seeking money.

Well you ask, we must have that collection box then??

NO, we don't have any collection box that you would put money in.

You may well know of the thithing. Well, if you won't tithe or can't afford it, you don't tithe.

The church does depend on tithing but you won't be shot if you don't tithe.

Soem of you claim we don't believe that Jesus is the savior of man. Wrong.

WRONG AND WRONG.

Anyway, I am not here to preach to anybody. If you want to visit our church to see for yourself, nobody will bite you or stalk you to your home.

[aboutime]

Sooner or later I will get the hang of obtaining all the material so I can both quote it and then discuss point by point. Sorry but somebody will have to read message 219 if they don't understand this message. Noir observed the above about missing pages of the Book of Mormon.

Here is what I do not understand. I have yet to see any posters challenge the Koran. I am talking of going at the book over the text?

Also, do they challenge the validity of the Old Testament based on nobody having clue one where the ten commandments are today? What about the Ark of the Covenant? Matter of fact, though I believe the teachings of Jesus and believe he is our savior, I must ask the non believers, or believers, just where are the Roman records of that period by the Romans? I have plenty of Roman history. I have studied Roman history trying to glean that they knew a person called Jesus. One *historian happens to mention a guy named Jesus but his history was nearly a hundred years later. Romans of Herods day kept very good records. *(Josephus)

I want to have some person explain to me why they get all fluffed up over the Book of Mormon to the point they pretty much attack it.

I am assailed with stories of hoodwinking. Some woman wanted to trick Joseph so she had her husband use a ruse so she could lay her hands on the text.

How many of you know of the 11 witness to what Joseph Smith did?

I will say this in defense of my church.

I have gone to various churches in the span of 74 years. I have seen some strange things go on. But never in the LDS church. I was taken to Patton's church in Oakland CA as a kid and if you want wierd, that was wierd. And Patton later was convicted of federal crimes connected to his church. To this day, there is still that Patton school and church in Oakland. I won't bore you with all the details that I saw when my cousin roped me into riding the bus and going to that church. Till he died, my cousin was loyal to that church. Patton for instance had to know who had money and who did not. I recall vividly that around 1946 or 47, watching Patton take money from his audience. All he did was say ... GOD SAYS FOR YOU TO GIVE THE CHURCH $5.00 and some guy would take out his five dollars and hand it over. Patton then barked, GOD SAYS FOR YOU TO GIVE THE CHURCH $100.00 and the sucker pulled out the bill and handed it over. I mean it was awful.

I have also gone to Methodist churches with family. I enjoyed their holiday shows. But Mormons have them too. I can't say I was alarmed in their churches.

I have been married once to a Jehovah Witness. Talk about a wild ride. I did not like that church one bit. I felt it was a cult of some sort. To me, that is what a Cult feels like.

My church at no time has such a feeling.

My church also does not bilk you of your money merely because you show up for services.

Some of you, should you attend would assume you would need your donation in reach when we pass the plate.

Wrong. We do not pass any plate seeking money.

Well you ask, we must have that collection box then??

NO, we don't have any collection box that you would put money in.

You may well know of the thithing. Well, if you won't tithe or can't afford it, you don't tithe.

The church does depend on tithing but you won't be shot if you don't tithe.

Soem of you claim we don't believe that Jesus is the savior of man. Wrong.

WRONG AND WRONG.

Anyway, I am not here to preach to anybody. If you want to visit our church to see for yourself, nobody will bite you or stalk you to your home.


Robert. What you are seeing, and experiencing here with this useless, self-indulgent thread. Meant to please a few small minded individuals who must tear everyone else...who does not share their opinions down.

In other words. We are seeing pure Ignorance at work. And they are proving how hard they had to work in order to achieve their top levels of Ignorance..if only to appease, or please them for a short moment in time. When nobody else really cares what they think. Much like that dose of 15 minutes of fame...only they will feel. While everyone else just laughs at them for being so Ignorant.

[revelarts]

wow
what a thread.
Ok lets get out the score card.
If i might be allowed to generalize very specific comments without offense.


•Some folks think If you live a decent life if doesn't matter WHAT you believe your A- Ok with them and God too i guess.

•Some folks think as long as you believe a few basics about Christianity and/or Jesus your in the club.

•A few think that You must believe very Specific things and NOT other things about Christianity and Jesus then your in the club.

•Some, well one, so far thinks the Mormon Club is farther off base than the general Christian Club but the religion Club is basically not fair.


i guess the 1st question that comes to my mind here is.
Ok, when we say Christian it means SOMETHING right?
Does it mean whatever anybody wants it to mean? And if it means Something then who has the criteria to judge it's boundaries. Who gets to draw the circle?

I think most would agree that God does finally. But until then most people look to the words of Scripture as God's word to get an Idea of what's required right now. So we don't have to guess or be unsure. not much really.
Seems to me.


concerning the 1st generalization
•Some folks think If you live a decent life if doesn't matter WHAT you believe your A- Ok with them and God too i guess.
I just do NOT see in the Bible where all the nice people go to paradise. Nearly the opposite sinners made righteous go to paradise. The sinners who believe in Jesus Christ, the only begotten son, of the Father, the one and only, creator of the universe.

Someone posted early on in the thread many Scriptures about the "belief" in Jesus Christ.

I don't understand how some can say that God will let ANYone in who just is a decent person, without faith in Christ. Sure Folks can think that if they like, but it is NOT what Jesus or the Apostles taught. It's Just Not. You can disagree with them if you like.
and saying we don't like it is fine too. but that's just the facts.
"i am the way the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the father except by me"
Jesus said that.
Not me. i'm not trying to be mean or exclusive i'm trying to be HONEST with all of the text. I've read some people who quote other scriptures that say that the good get to paradise but they leave out the Above and other scriptures that qualify those passages. Those who do that are just not being honest.

They are trying to be nice and include as many as possible which is very kind, but it's lie to claim that's what the Bible teaches.

[Noir]

Sooner or later I will get the hang of obtaining all the material so I can both quote it and then discuss point by point. Sorry but somebody will have to read message 219 if they don't understand this message. Noir observed the above about missing pages of the Book of Mormon.

I shall await your answer (:


Here is what I do not understand. I have yet to see any posters challenge the Koran. I am talking of going at the book over the text?

There are very few (iirc just two) active posters who are Muslim here, and i don't think either have posted in this thread. There would be little point in me posting about the scribblings of some illiterate child rapist (PBUH), when all anyone would do is agree.


Also, do they challenge the validity of the Old Testament based on nobody having clue one where the ten commandments are today? What about the Ark of the Covenant? Matter of fact, though I believe the teachings of Jesus and believe he is our savior, I must ask the non believers, or believers, just where are the Roman records of that period by the Romans? I have plenty of Roman history. I have studied Roman history trying to glean that they knew a person called Jesus. One *historian happens to mention a guy named Jesus but his history was nearly a hundred years later. Romans of Herods day kept very good records. *(Josephus)

+1, the old testament seems to skate wildly between the ridiculous, the reasonable (but with no records) and the reasonable (with reasonable records).
Though, being a Mormon, you believe in Jesus, has your questioning into the records not cast questions over the Mormon faith?


I want to have some person explain to me why they get all fluffed up over the Book of Mormon to the point they pretty much attack it.


Can't speak for everyone, but personally i'm happy to raise questions about any proposition (whether or not you regard that as an 'attack' is up to you)


I am assailed with stories of hoodwinking. Some woman wanted to trick Joseph so she had her husband use a ruse so she could lay her hands on the text.


She didn't want to trick him, she was trying to put his claims to the test. And as far as i can see, he failed.


How many of you know of the 11 witness to what Joseph Smith did?

Tell me more about them, like, how many of them saw the plates themselves?


I will say this in defense of my church.

I have gone to various churches in the span of 74 years. I have seen some strange things go on. But never in the LDS church. I was taken to Patton's church in Oakland CA as a kid and if you want wierd, that was wierd. And Patton later was convicted of federal crimes connected to his church. To this day, there is still that Patton school and church in Oakland. I won't bore you with all the details that I saw when my cousin roped me into riding the bus and going to that church. Till he died, my cousin was loyal to that church. Patton for instance had to know who had money and who did not. I recall vividly that around 1946 or 47, watching Patton take money from his audience. All he did was say ... GOD SAYS FOR YOU TO GIVE THE CHURCH $5.00 and some guy would take out his five dollars and hand it over. Patton then barked, GOD SAYS FOR YOU TO GIVE THE CHURCH $100.00 and the sucker pulled out the bill and handed it over. I mean it was awful.


It is disgusting how some church leaders will effectively bully people into making financial commitments like that ):

As for the rest of your post - Not ignoring it, but i don't think i have anything to add to it. My main queries here revolve around Smith, not the modern church as such.

[Noir]

Robert. What you are seeing, and experiencing here with this useless, self-indulgent thread. Meant to please a few small minded individuals who must tear everyone else...who does not share their opinions down.

In other words. We are seeing pure Ignorance at work. And they are proving how hard they had to work in order to achieve their top levels of Ignorance..if only to appease, or please them for a short moment in time. When nobody else really cares what they think. Much like that dose of 15 minutes of fame...only they will feel. While everyone else just laughs at them for being so Ignorant.

I know right!
I'm so ignorant on the issue that i mentioned a matter of history regarding a church leader, which a member of that church was not aware of.
If only i was less ignorant and didn't know such things.

[aboutime]

I know right!
I'm so ignorant on the issue that i mentioned a matter of history regarding a church leader, which a member of that church was not aware of.
If only i was less ignorant and didn't know such things.



Noir. Show me when, and where I said that about You. If it didn't apply to you. Why be so defensive?

I offered my opinion. You disagree. But I did not mention any particular name. Check it out. See for yourself.

My words should only bother those who have something to disagree with, or about. So, where does that place you?

[Noir]

Some people are such twats.

[revelarts]

•Some folks think as long as you believe a few basics about Christianity and/or Jesus your in the club.

This is, i'm sure, often true. There are many through out the world and history who have believed the Bare minimum and gone to paradise. the thief on the Cross for instance. In the book of Acts an Ethiopian man -a Jewish convert-, Just learned that Jesus was the Messiah and only knew little more. A Roman soldier, also Jewish Convert, knew very little. But was "saved". Once the Apostle Paul and Barnabas went to a city where the people worshiped Zeus. When the apostles performed miracles the Priest of Zeus came out and worshiped THEM as Zeus and Mercury in the flesh and when the Apostles realized what was going on they said STOP IT. God wants you to turn away from these vain things and worship the living and true God.

When Jesus was traveling through Samaria he met a women at a well.
here's the last part

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”


Did Jesus Just tell someone their worship was Wrong? wasn't she sincere? Sure, but wrong.
She and her people didn't KNOW WHAT they were worshiping. But they did have SOME facts correct. they Knew a Messiah was coming and She had the spiritual sense to submit to him without debate once she was corrected.

This is hard for me to say frankly
Concerning the Mormon faith I'm sure many are are sincere and truly worshiping God to the best of theire ability and knowledge. But frankly as i read the scriptures and Mormon teachings it's clear that there are conflicts.
The problem include some details that are not vital but the it's the main points,
who is the Jesus, the who is the God, the Mormons are talking about.

if some guy came on the board and says that Noir is an Asian man from South America Whos an Agnostic/Atheist who's mostly vegetarian but eats fish once a month and is over 50 yrs old.
Most everyone here would say Um No he's from the U.K.. and he's -if I remember - Irish not Asian. etc etc.
If the guy insisted on his version of Noir privately but usually acknowledged the facts we have in common publicly that, Noir has Black hair (so far), That he's Atheist (so far), generally fair skinned, has 10 fingers and toes and is a carbon based life form.
Well it's all the same then right? Deatil are meaningless Noir is Noir. Why would anyone be so narrow as to dare correct the new guy, he's sincere, and NICER than many here.
If the new person speaks to Noir is he speaking to the same person we are. hmm well yes maybe. maybe not. Will Noir acknowledge that version of himself sometimes maybe, but maybe not. If the new person says they are going to visit Noir do you think they'll get to him?


Mormonism Claims a God that was once a physical man like us. (D. & C. 130:22)
Christianity via the Bible teaches that God is is uniquely eternal and Spirit.
it is a different God.


Mormonism Teaches that we came become A god similar to God progressively and will be able to populate new earths with our own 'spiritual' children. Part of the reason for many wives.
Christianity teaches that humans will be perfected humans and will live in eternity with the 1 and only creator God in the new heaven and Earth.
Different view of men and the afterlife, no coffee then, Avatar's off the make his own worlds.

Mormonism teaches that there are already MANY legitimate Gods and you can be one of them.
Christianity teaches there ONLY one GOD. ALL other gods are false.
Different view of God.

Mormonism Teaches Jesus Christ was just a man and not God at 1st as Jesus and the new testament asserts. And that Jesus is One of the 3 main but separate gods. The father the son and the holy ghost
A different Father, Different Jesus, different Holy Spirit.

God say he's ONE God. And Jesus is one in being with the father and holy Spirit.

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.

Colossians 1
16 For by Him (Jesus) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold

I won't to make this any longer with more core differences. But suffice it to mention those for a start. So when a Mormon say "Jesus" or "God" and most Christians say "Jesus" or "God" they are probably not talking about the same person. Sure it's the same words/names and there are A LOT of other similarities but some things are vastly different. To the point that it's gone beyond the circle of scripture, the apostles teachings and the 1st 1800 years of Christianity. Against of the core doctrines of the faith. Despite the sincerity and kindness of it's adherents.

[aboutime]

Some people are such twats.

Thanks Noir. Until you mentioned it. I would have never considered using that word to describe you. But, if the shoe fits....

[Robert A Whit]

I shall await your answer (:



There are very few (iirc just two) active posters who are Muslim here, and i don't think either have posted in this thread. There would be little point in me posting about the scribblings of some illiterate child rapist (PBUH), when all anyone would do is agree.



+1, the old testament seems to skate wildly between the ridiculous, the reasonable (but with no records) and the reasonable (with reasonable records).
Though, being a Mormon, you believe in Jesus, has your questioning into the records not cast questions over the Mormon faith?



Can't speak for everyone, but personally i'm happy to raise questions about any proposition (whether or not you regard that as an 'attack' is up to you)



She didn't want to trick him, she was trying to put his claims to the test. And as far as i can see, he failed.



Tell me more about them, like, how many of them saw the plates themselves?



It is disgusting how some church leaders will effectively bully people into making financial commitments like that ):

As for the rest of your post - Not ignoring it, but i don't think i have anything to add to it. My main queries here revolve around Smith, not the modern church as such.


•Some folks think as long as you believe a few basics about Christianity and/or Jesus your in the club.

This is, i'm sure, often true. There are many through out the world and history who have believed the Bare minimum and gone to paradise. the thief on the Cross for instance. In the book of Acts an Ethiopian man -a Jewish convert-, Just learned that Jesus was the Messiah and only knew little more. A Roman soldier, also Jewish Convert, knew very little. But was "saved". Once the Apostle Paul and Barnabas went to a city where the people worshiped Zeus. When the apostles performed miracles the Priest of Zeus came out and worshiped THEM as Zeus and Mercury in the flesh and when the Apostles realized what was going on they said STOP IT. God wants you to turn away from these vain things and worship the living and true God.

When Jesus was traveling through Samaria he met a women at a well.
here's the last part



Did Jesus Just tell someone their worship was Wrong? wasn't she sincere? Sure, but wrong.
She and her people didn't KNOW WHAT they were worshiping. But they did have SOME facts correct. they Knew a Messiah was coming and She had the spiritual sense to submit to him without debate once she was corrected.

This is hard for me to say frankly
Concerning the Mormon faith I'm sure many are are sincere and truly worshiping God to the best of theire ability and knowledge. But frankly as i read the scriptures and Mormon teachings it's clear that there are conflicts.
The problem include some details that are not vital but the it's the main points,
who is the Jesus, the who is the God, the Mormons are talking about.

if some guy came on the board and says that Noir is an Asian man from South America Whos an Agnostic/Atheist who's mostly vegetarian but eats fish once a month and is over 50 yrs old.
Most everyone here would say Um No he's from the U.K.. and he's -if I remember - Irish not Asian. etc etc.
If the guy insisted on his version of Noir privately but usually acknowledged the facts we have in common publicly that, Noir has Black hair (so far), That he's Atheist (so far), generally fair skinned, has 10 fingers and toes and is a carbon based life form.
Well it's all the same then right? Deatil are meaningless Noir is Noir. Why would anyone be so narrow as to dare correct the new guy, he's sincere, and NICER than many here.
If the new person speaks to Noir is he speaking to the same person we are. hmm well yes maybe. maybe not. Will Noir acknowledge that version of himself sometimes maybe, but maybe not. If the new person says they are going to visit Noir do you think they'll get to him?


Mormonism Claims a God that was once a physical man like us. (D. & C. 130:22)
Christianity via the Bible teaches that God is is uniquely eternal and Spirit.
it is a different God.


Mormonism Teaches that we came become A god similar to God progressively and will be able to populate new earths with our own 'spiritual' children. Part of the reason for many wives.
Christianity teaches that humans will be perfected humans and will live in eternity with the 1 and only creator God in the new heaven and Earth.
Different view of men and the afterlife, no coffee then, Avatar's off the make his own worlds.

Mormonism teaches that there are already MANY legitimate Gods and you can be one of them.
Christianity teaches there ONLY one GOD. ALL other gods are false.
Different view of God.

Mormonism Teaches Jesus Christ was just a man and not God at 1st as Jesus and the new testament asserts. And that Jesus is One of the 3 main but separate gods. The father the son and the holy ghost
A different Father, Different Jesus, different Holy Spirit.

God say he's ONE God. And Jesus is one in being with the father and holy Spirit.

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.

Colossians 1
16 For by Him (Jesus) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold

I won't to make this any longer with more core differences. But suffice it to mention those for a start. So when a Mormon say "Jesus" or "God" and most Christians say "Jesus" or "God" they are probably not talking about the same person. Sure it's the same words/names and there are A LOT of other similarities but some things are vastly different. To the point that it's gone beyond the circle of scripture, the apostles teachings and the 1st 1800 years of Christianity. Against of the core doctrines of the faith. Despite the sincerity and kindness of it's adherents.

OK, I am an admitted LDS as is Romney.

So, who is correct?

We or those you claim are Christians?

[gabosaurus]

There are those who believe that the Book of Mormon is more violent and cruel that either The Bible or The Quran.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/bom/cr/long.html

And don't think Muslims are the only worshipers that are expected to die for their God.



"And whomsoever ye acurse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies. And my presence shall be with you even in avenging me of mine enemies, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. Let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake; for whoso layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again. And whoso is not willing to lay down his life for my sake is not my disciple."
D&C 35:14
"And their arm shall be my arm, and I will be their shield and their buckler; and I will gird up their loins, and they shall fight manfully for me; and their enemies shall be under their feet; and I will let fall the sword in their behalf, and by the fire of mine indignation will I preserve them."

Mormons believe only those who are true to their faith can reach heaven. Their mission is to convert everyone who does not believe. Or else.


"Verily, I say unto you, that woe shall come unto the inhabitants of the earth if they will not hearken unto my words; For hereafter you shall be ordained and go forth and deliver my words unto the children of men. Behold, if they will not believe my words, they would not believe you, my servant Joseph, if it were possible that you should show them all these things which I have committed unto you. Oh, this unbelieving and stiffnecked generation, mine anger is kindled against them!"

[PostmodernProphet]

but it is NOT what Jesus or the Apostles taught.

there is this thing called the Apostle's Creed....it's been used by the church for something like 1700 years to help determine the difference between those who are "Christians" and those who are "heretics".......

[PostmodernProphet]

which a member of that church was not aware of.

it happens.....I belong to a denomination that follows the teachings of John Calvin.....I suspect very few members are aware that he once ordered another Christian burned at the stake for disagreeing with his theology........Martin Luther had his share of black moments as well......and don't even think about listing the sins of the Popes.....

and yet there are other sides of Calvin as there are of all men......he created a system of government that you may be familiar with.....three independent branches.....legislative, administrative, and judicial, with checks and balances to prevent abuse....and put it in place in Geneva....some of his followers liked it and copied it somewhere else....

the point is, we should look not at the worst thing a person did a long time ago, but the best thing that people take from him today......

[revelarts]

there is this thing called the Apostle's Creed....it's been used by the church for something like 1700 years to help determine the difference between those who are "Christians" and those who are "heretics".......
Yes, true, there's the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian creeds which flesh out the Apostle's creed as well.

And there was certainly no book of Mormon.

[Noir]

the point is, we should look not at the worst thing a person did a long time ago, but the best thing that people take from him today......

So specify in regard to this topic, the 'worst' the person may of done, is fabricated a religion. And i''m just meant to ignore that, because people who believe that the book of Mormon is true, and believe it in good faith?

Not to mention the mockery it makes of History, archaeology etc to let such things pass.

[aboutime]

it happens.....I belong to a denomination that follows the teachings of John Calvin.....I suspect very few members are aware that he once ordered another Christian burned at the stake for disagreeing with his theology........Martin Luther had his share of black moments as well......and don't even think about listing the sins of the Popes.....

and yet there are other sides of Calvin as there are of all men......he created a system of government that you may be familiar with.....three independent branches.....legislative, administrative, and judicial, with checks and balances to prevent abuse....and put it in place in Geneva....some of his followers liked it and copied it somewhere else....

the point is, we should look not at the worst thing a person did a long time ago, but the best thing that people take from him today......

This also reminded me of the words of Dr. Martin L. King who told all of us "Not to judge others by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
That line seems to be very appropriate on this thread, at this time as well.
I personally believe discussing the religious beliefs of others should be a private, not a public thing to be bantered about, here on this Forum, or on Any Forum for that matter.

My faith, beliefs, and life principles are NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS.
As I've said in other posts here. WARS, and ARGUMENTS about Religion are the principle, and primary cause for such wars, destruction, and continued hatred for one another.
If EVERYONE minds their own business. It stops.

[Noir]

My faith, beliefs, and life principles are NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS.

Then stop posting about it. If you never wanted it to be my business I would have absolutely no idea about your faith, beliefs etc. never-mind anything else.
You chose to share them.

[Robert A Whit]

There are those who believe that the Book of Mormon is more violent and cruel that either The Bible or The Quran.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/bom/cr/long.html

And don't think Muslims are the only worshipers that are expected to die for their God.



Mormons believe only those who are true to their faith can reach heaven. Their mission is to convert everyone who does not believe. Or else.

Pardon me but I don't believe those words are in the Book of Mormon.

So now that you said those things, how about I shoot you a direct quote from the Book of Mormon.

This is in Alma.7:23-4

23 And now I would that ye should be humble. and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent of keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need; both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive.
24 And see that ye have faith, hope and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.

===============
Kinda makes you want to stomp that book huh? Burn it to ashes huh?

[Robert A Whit]

Listen ... Noir

Message 230

Hold on, I plan to deal with your claims about my church.

Being busy, not just now.

Bear in mind that I am not a regular at church. Some that you claim must be researched by me. Some I instinctly know.

But know this, my church means none of you harm. I wish other Christian churches could make the same claim.

They turn off Athiests by offering them hell.

We offer a few a life upon death the likes they can't imagine.
Where they offer gloom and doom, we have something much more to offer.

They will pass their collection plate for you to fill.

Sorry, that is not our way of doing things.

I will get back to you.

[tailfins]

So specify in regard to this topic, the 'worst' the person may of done, is fabricated a religion. And i''m just meant to ignore that, because people who believe that the book of Mormon is true, and believe it in good faith?

Not to mention the mockery it makes of History, archaeology etc to let such things pass.

That may be, but the First Amendment protects their right to practice a wacky religion.

[Robert A Whit]

That may be, but the First Amendment protects their right to practice a wacky religion.

I can handle this abuse of my church since I recall that to many of the world, your religion is wacky too.

[Noir]

That may be, but the First Amendment protects their right to practice a wacky religion.

I don't think I ever implied otherwise.

[aboutime]

Then stop posting about it. If you never wanted it to be my business I would have absolutely no idea about your faith, beliefs etc. never-mind anything else.
You chose to share them.

Happily. Problem for you, and the others who do not mind your own business. I didn't start this thread. But, being a member of this forum. I did as everyone else is free to do. I added my opinions. If you disagree with them. So be it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There are those who believe that the Book of Mormon is more violent and cruel that either The Bible or The Quran.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/bom/cr/long.html

And don't think Muslims are the only worshipers that are expected to die for their God.



Mormons believe only those who are true to their faith can reach heaven. Their mission is to convert everyone who does not believe. Or else.

Sure thing Gabs, the world shakes at the great Mormon menace!-:laugh2: Donnie and Marie Osmond always struck fear into the hearts of their fans.. Do you ever really think about what you post? -Tyr