Requirements to be a Christian

[Robert A Whit]

Sure thing Gabs, the world shakes at the great Mormon menace!-:laugh2: Donnie and Marie Osmond always struck fear into the hearts of their fans.. Do you ever really think about what you post? -Tyr

LOL
Even Gabby has a place in one of the 3 Mormon heavens. One wouild think she would appreciate choice.

Anybody want to comment on 3 heavens?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

LOL
Even Gabby has a place in one of the 3 Mormon heavens. One wouild think she would appreciate choice.

Anybody want to comment on 3 heavens?

If I make it into just one heaven I'll be happy and nary a complaint shall I dare to utter..-;)-Tyr

[Noir]

Happily. Problem for you, and the others who do not mind your own business. I didn't start this thread. But, being a member of this forum. I did as everyone else is free to do. I added my opinions. If you disagree with them. So be it.


Good lord.
Why would you share your opinions and beliefs, and then post about how its nobodys business to know?

If you think its no one else's business, then don't post it, and if you do post them - don't then rant about how it isn't other peoples business.

[PostmodernProphet]

So specify in regard to this topic, the 'worst' the person may of done, is fabricated a religion. And i''m just meant to ignore that, because people who believe that the book of Mormon is true, and believe it in good faith?

Not to mention the mockery it makes of History, archaeology etc to let such things pass.

you have missed the point......perhaps a Mormon once taught polygamy or made up a new religion......perhaps a protestant reformer burned his critic to death......perhaps some pope started a crusade.......none of those things have anything to do with what is in the heart of someone today, whether they call themselves a Mormon, Reformed, or Catholic...

[Noir]

you have missed the point......perhaps a Mormon once taught polygamy or made up a new religion......perhaps a protestant reformer burned his critic to death......perhaps some pope started a crusade.......none of those things have anything to do with what is in the heart of someone today, whether they call themselves a Mormon, Reformed, or Catholic...

So I shouldn't ask questions of Mormons, because even though there is evidence to suggest that a guy just made the while religion up, good people genuinely believe in it?

No thanks, I'll keep asking questions.

[PostmodernProphet]

So I shouldn't ask questions of Mormons, because even though there is evidence to suggest that a guy just made the while religion up, good people genuinely believe in it?

No thanks, I'll keep asking questions.

want to ask a Catholic how he can justify the crusades?......want to ask me how I can justify Calvin burning a critic at the stake?.........I attended a Mormon service as an assignment for my comparative religion class......I saw a whole lot of Jesus loves us and we need to help our fellow man......I saw nothing of "magic underwear" or polygamy, which is what the left seems to want everyone to believe is important to Mormons.....I suggest if you want to ask good people what they genuinely believe in you ask them instead of tell them.....

[Noir]

want to ask a Catholic how he can justify the crusades?......want to ask me how I can justify Calvin burning a critic at the stake?.........I attended a Mormon service as an assignment for my comparative religion class......I saw a whole lot of Jesus loves us and we need to help our fellow man......I saw nothing of "magic underwear" or polygamy, which is what the left seems to want everyone to believe is important to Mormons.....I suggest if you want to ask good people what they genuinely believe in you ask them instead of tell them.....

But the questions i am asking are with regards to the founding of the religion.

Smith could of been on of the most vile and heinous humans who ever lived. That would not mean that the religion that he has founded is not the 'true path to god' etc, however, when we have evidence that he was put to the test about his claims, and that he failed, that does put some question marks over it.

Now ofcourse people can believe whatever they want to, and even if it is all but proven that the religion was just made up - that does not mean that the people practicing it are malicious, or that their adherence to it, makes them worse people.

In exactly the same way that there are a (unbelievably) significant number of people who believe that elvis is still alive. Does that make them bad people etc? No, it does make them sound a bit stupid though, and if i present evidence that elvis is actually dead,or ask them questions that they may have trouble answering - that is reasonable imo.

[revelarts]

want to ask a Catholic how he can justify the crusades?......want to ask me how I can justify Calvin burning a critic at the stake?.........I attended a Mormon service as an assignment for my comparative religion class......I saw a whole lot of Jesus loves us and we need to help our fellow man......I saw nothing of "magic underwear" or polygamy, which is what the left seems to want everyone to believe is important to Mormons.....I suggest if you want to ask good people what they genuinely believe in you ask them instead of tell them.....

You won't find the Holy Crusades promoted in the Bible.
You won't find Paul or Jesus burning critics at the stake.
there's no excuse for either.

You'll will find polygamy alive and well not long ago with the LDS , has it been officially renounced?
and magic underwear on the LDS web site
http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_715839595_10557_21152_-1_Y_image_0

It's important enough to put it on it's web site. maybe it takes more than a visit to see whats important at different times.

And as I mentioned before, is the Jesus they mention they same Jesus?

[aboutime]

Good lord.
Why would you share your opinions and beliefs, and then post about how its nobodys business to know?

If you think its no one else's business, then don't post it, and if you do post them - don't then rant about how it isn't other peoples business.



Noir. The Good Lord has nothing to do with it here. And unless you have figured a way to make your Monitor Sensitive to BRAILLE, where touching the screen is a better way to participate in this FORUM.
I will continue to ask you WHY it is any of your business about mine, or Mitt Romney's religious beliefs. Other than your Hatred, and hypocrisy precedes you here.
So. I'll say it again. What anyone here claims as their religious faith, or beliefs IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
You are nothing but a trouble making, hate filled bigot. End of story.

[Robert A Whit]

So I shouldn't ask questions of Mormons, because even though there is evidence to suggest that a guy just made the while religion up, good people genuinely believe in it?

No thanks, I'll keep asking questions.

Can't that same claim be made about all religions? Wasn't Islam simply made up? Difference is we don't declare Jihad nor cut off heads nor stone women who were raped.

[Robert A Whit]

You won't find the Holy Crusades promoted in the Bible.
You won't find Paul or Jesus burning critics at the stake.
there's no excuse for either.

You'll will find polygamy alive and well not long ago with the LDS , has it been officially renounced?
and magic underwear on the LDS web site
http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_715839595_10557_21152_-1_Y_image_0

It's important enough to put it on it's web site. maybe it takes more than a visit to see whats important at different times.

And as I mentioned before, is the Jesus they mention they same Jesus?

Actually there is a better case to be made pro polygamy than there is for same sex marriages.

But my church bowed to the law passed in the late 1800s so we do not take part in polygamy. Matter of fact, most of the LDS would be shocked, maybe angry if their kids broke the law that way and got involved in polygamy. Since the numbers still marrying in that fashion has greatly dwindled to a very few, I don't know why this issue gets brought up concerning what we do.

I am amused but befuddled at the hostile view over the garments. All they are is white. Don't any of you wear white clothes?

There is symbolism in the fact they are white. They are not any more magic than the white wedding gown is magic.

Absolutely it is the same Jesus. Jesus is the only name in our church name.

Can't you locate the word Jesus in the name of the Church?

[Noir]

Can't that same claim be made about all religions? Wasn't Islam simply made up? Difference is we don't declare Jihad nor cut off heads nor stone women who were raped.

and if Mormonism had been made up a millennia ago, we probably wouldn't have records of people like the women who put Smith to the test. (who knows what records their could of been against mohammed that have been lost/erased from history!) However, it only happened a few generations ago, and so we do (:

[Robert A Whit]

But the questions i am asking are with regards to the founding of the religion.

Smith could of been on of the most vile and heinous humans who ever lived. That would not mean that the religion that he has founded is not the 'true path to god' etc, however, when we have evidence that he was put to the test about his claims, and that he failed, that does put some question marks over it.

Now ofcourse people can believe whatever they want to, and even if it is all but proven that the religion was just made up - that does not mean that the people practicing it are malicious, or that their adherence to it, makes them worse people.

In exactly the same way that there are a (unbelievably) significant number of people who believe that elvis is still alive. Does that make them bad people etc? No, it does make them sound a bit stupid though, and if i present evidence that elvis is actually dead,or ask them questions that they may have trouble answering - that is reasonable imo.

I have no idea if the story you told is even a tiny bit true. I have yet to see that story backed up properly.

But let's say that Joseph had a woman that tricked him into handing her pages that she planned all along to use to try to trick him with, imagine I am able to completely remove all of your posts, blank them out so nobody can study your posts, and then make claims and so forth, can you handle that?

Can you repeat verbatim things you wrote months ago?

Can you?

I will say this, and I am not pleased with myself,(that I spent my life not reading my own church book) but this has got me to start reading the Book of Mormon and I find that the messages in it are very warm and very helpful to people's lives.

[Robert A Whit]

and if Mormonism had been made up a millennia ago, we probably wouldn't have records of people like the women who put Smith to the test. (who knows what records their could of been against mohammed that have been lost/erased from history!) However, it only happened a few generations ago, and so we do (:

Yet we do not know if that tale is even true. If an error is made, does a long time past mean we forgive the error? (OT/NT and Koran)

I really wish you would do yourself a huge favor. Get the Book of Mormon. You can get it for free I believe. Anyway, when discussing such a book, one shoule at least read it to see if their fear of the book is warranted. (White pages of phone books has LDS phone numbers and one can also buy it online at the true church book firm in Salt Lake City)

I thank some of you for essentially giving me a reason to start reading the book. I am simply in awe of the kind things I find in the book. The utter comfort it has. Amazing stuff.

[Robert A Whit]

want to ask a Catholic how he can justify the crusades?......want to ask me how I can justify Calvin burning a critic at the stake?.........I attended a Mormon service as an assignment for my comparative religion class......I saw a whole lot of Jesus loves us and we need to help our fellow man......I saw nothing of "magic underwear" or polygamy, which is what the left seems to want everyone to believe is important to Mormons.....I suggest if you want to ask good people what they genuinely believe in you ask them instead of tell them.....

As an ordained member of the LDS, I really want to thank you for that fairness.

[PostmodernProphet]

Now ofcourse people can believe whatever they want to, and even if it is all but proven that the religion was just made up - that does not mean that the people practicing it are malicious, or that their adherence to it, makes them worse people.


but the fact remains....what a religion teaches NOW is far more important than what a religion taught then.....

[Noir]

Yet we do not know if that tale is even true. If an error is made, does a long time past mean we forgive the error? (OT/NT and Koran)

I really wish you would do yourself a huge favor. Get the Book of Mormon. You can get it for free I believe. Anyway, when discussing such a book, one shoule at least read it to see if their fear of the book is warranted. (White pages of phone books has LDS phone numbers and one can also buy it online at the true church book firm in Salt Lake City)

I thank some of you for essentially giving me a reason to start reading the book. I am simply in awe of the kind things I find in the book. The utter comfort it has. Amazing stuff.

I've been doing some more reading on Mormonism over the past few days, and of the situations regarding the hidden translation etc.

The lost translation is mentioned by Smith in the Doctrine and Covenant (which i'm sure you are aware of) as (smiths tells us) God had foreseen that the translation would be lost, and that he should not try and redo them, but rather move on, using the small plates of Nephi to give a simalar, but not the same, account.

I'm sure you'll want to look up the text for yourself, but it puts a rather devilish pang on your 'if the tale is true' because one of the best sources for the tale of the lost pages being true, is Smith himself.

[Noir]

but the fact remains....what a religion teaches NOW is far more important than what a religion taught then.....

and neither of which have anything to do with the reality of whether or not Smith just made something up. Which is what i care about, rather than 'if people are nice or mean for whatever reason'

[tailfins]

Can't that same claim be made about all religions? Wasn't Islam simply made up? Difference is we don't declare Jihad nor cut off heads nor stone women who were raped.

When Cheech and Chong do that it's called "therapy".

Bob Dylan also advocated stoning:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJwjx16d0ew

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You won't find the Holy Crusades promoted in the Bible.
You won't find Paul or Jesus burning critics at the stake.
there's no excuse for either.

You'll will find polygamy alive and well not long ago with the LDS , has it been officially renounced?
and magic underwear on the LDS web site
http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_715839595_10557_21152_-1_Y_image_0

It's important enough to put it on it's web site. maybe it takes more than a visit to see whats important at different times.

And as I mentioned before, is the Jesus they mention they same Jesus?

Is the damn Allah obama swore to stand by in the end the same God that Christians worship?
If you answer yes then you are crazy and if you answer no then obama is ! A major reason this nation suffers so is obama's true beliefs which have pretty much been kept hidden or defended by asshats, appeasors and his loyal deluded followers.
While your are busy downgrading Romney you are raising obama 's standard. You want that???

[revelarts]

Actually there is a better case to be made pro polygamy than there is for same sex marriages.
But my church bowed to the law passed in the late 1800s so we do not take part in polygamy. Matter of fact, most of the LDS would be shocked, maybe angry if their kids broke the law that way and got involved in polygamy. Since the numbers still marrying in that fashion has greatly dwindled to a very few, I don't know why this issue gets brought up concerning what we do.
I am amused but befuddled at the hostile view over the garments. All they are is white. Don't any of you wear white clothes?
There is symbolism in the fact they are white. They are not any more magic than the white wedding gown is magic.
Absolutely it is the same Jesus. Jesus is the only name in our church name.
Can't you locate the word Jesus in the name of the Church?

I didn't bring it up the garments or Polygamy as a point, Post modern Prophet Did. He did it in a way that attempted to dismiss all relevance it has to LDS teaching.

The same God i mentioned before. Is Noir an Asian man from South America? is that the same Noir. Can we make up any ol Noir and that's good enough.

TZ,
I don't have a problem with a president being a Mormon, at least he's been consistent on that front and you can be sure where he stands there.

As far as Islam goes, I don't believe Mohamed got anything from God and I do not think they are Worshiping the same God. The God of Christianity is a Trinity where the God of Islam is not. They say that Jesus is only a prophet and was not crucified. And so was not resurrected. And Less than Mohamed.
Is Noir a A fat women with one leg from Ireland with long brown hair who you have to talk to 3 times a day or else?

Like the LDS Church there are A LOT of similarities but enough difference to put them outside of the pale. It's my understanding that both Mormons and Muslims also believe that works are what finally get them to heaven and not grace. i believe some LDS folks deny this sometimes but from what i've read you HAVE TO do stuff to become a GOD in the afterlife, if you DON'T do certain things , like undergarments in the temple, you don't get the full package available in heaven.

[Robert A Whit]

My parents had a lot of books promoted by the LDS Church. Of course they had D/C and Pearl of great price and the Word of Wisdom. I admit that as a teen, I had other fish to fry. I apologize for not having gone deeply into the Church as a teen.

See, though some gave talks, and I gave a few in my day, this sort of stuff would, I think at any rate, be taught in classes. I simply was not exposed to the D/C text as I am now reading it. I figured the adults would read it I suppose. I handled the book even as an adult at my parents home on holidays but I had not cracked the book to read it.

Thus I was ignorant of 116 pages missing that is called the Lehi book.

I read the account.

Martin Harris questioned it though he had been a scribe for Joseph Smith. And his wife wanted to trick Joseph. She performed no decent nor kind service to Joseph.

Martin her Husband was also later to see the actual plates and he so testified with 2 other witnesses that they are true. When the man who got the material says it is true, seems to me the only question is what did his wife do with the 116 pages?

She did not deny them. All she did in her trick was to goad Joseph Smith trying to get that young guy to recall word for word what had been written. Since he could not do it word for word, sort of rules out he wrote them down but that all he had done was translate them.

Most of us have taken a foregn language yet I challenge people to try to recall word for word some material that they translated. I understand that others did the writing and not Joseph.

So for this to work, you would have to have done just the translating but somebody else put the words down in their hand.

I suspect had Joseph written the book, he would come a lot closer to recalling it word for word than just translating the book.

Mystry solved.

My question to the non believers is what did she do with the 116 pages she admitted to taking off with?

[Noir]

^And there you have it, rarely do sentences like 'Faith is the denial of observation, so that belief can be preserved' fit so well.

The story, and test, of the missing pages is more than enough to convince me that the book of Mormon was not the reviled wisdom of an omnipotent god, even before one starts to consider other discrepancies. It all just sounds so very human.

[Dilloduck]

So I shouldn't ask questions of Mormons, because even though there is evidence to suggest that a guy just made the while religion up, good people genuinely believe in it?

No thanks, I'll keep asking questions.

I thought all religions were "made up" as are all philosophies.

[Noir]

I thought all religions were "made up" as are all philosophies.

Yes, IMO anyways.

[aboutime]

Yes, IMO anyways.


Agreed! The very same way being an Atheist is made up. For no reason at all. Other than to have something else to complain about.

[cadet]

Agreed! The very same way being an Atheist is made up. For no reason at all. Other than to have something else to complain about.

They weren't made up, just look down at this.

http://www.the-atheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/atheismmakessense.jpg

[Robert A Whit]

Like the LDS Church there are A LOT of similarities but enough difference to put them outside of the pale. It's my understanding that both Mormons and Muslims also believe that works are what finally get them to heaven and not grace. i believe some LDS folks deny this sometimes but from what i've read you HAVE TO do stuff to become a GOD in the afterlife, if you DON'T do certain things , like undergarments in the temple, you don't get the full package available in heaven.

So, if you won't read all of our texts, why do you discuss them? Why don't you study the three "heavens" we teach? There you will find out a lot more. I read it on the internet so I know it is easy to find.

If any of us wish to attempt to qualify to be in the highest "heaven" we need to follow the teachings. I remind you that none of these teachings is for te benefit of other than the person being taught.

To further explain, there are no fees charged for church works. If a couple wants to be married in the Church Temple, they don't pay some fee. They merely follow some doctrine and can be married.

I have done things in the Mormon Temple at Manti, UT. My parents got the temple marriage done there. Quite the trip too. I think that was the nearest temple at the time with time for them.

At the time, the Salt Lake Temple was up the street so my parents would not drive so many miles for the fun of driving.

Unless other churches hide their beliefs from others, they are doing works.

When the Catholics stand before an audience to preach, they do works. Same for the rest of the religions. If they don't expose their beliefs to anybody, then they operate purely with no works.

We Mormons also help the poor. We are really into Charity and you can tell by looking at Romney's tax returns.

Back to your claims over grace. We also believe that. Again, a lot of your problems would be solved if you learn all about the 3 forms of Heaven we teach.

A lot of your angst is over what is a GOD.

First, you must accept that there is at least ONE GOD.

If you can't accept even ONE God, clearly you won't accept other GODS.

[PostmodernProphet]

They weren't made up, just look down at this.

http://www.the-atheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/atheismmakessense.jpg

boils down perfectly to three words.....shit just happens......

[aboutime]

boils down perfectly to three words.....shit just happens......



PostmodernProphet. But the Atheist problem is. They disagree with that theory as well. If they don't believe in it. Shit can't happen.

[avatar4321]

So I shouldn't ask questions of Mormons, because even though there is evidence to suggest that a guy just made the while religion up, good people genuinely believe in it?

No thanks, I'll keep asking questions.

Cause most people get murdered for religions they made up when they could easily have gotten away and/or gotten out of it by saying they are lying?

[avatar4321]

want to ask a Catholic how he can justify the crusades?......want to ask me how I can justify Calvin burning a critic at the stake?.........I attended a Mormon service as an assignment for my comparative religion class......I saw a whole lot of Jesus loves us and we need to help our fellow man......I saw nothing of "magic underwear" or polygamy, which is what the left seems to want everyone to believe is important to Mormons.....I suggest if you want to ask good people what they genuinely believe in you ask them instead of tell them.....

Because it isn't important. Those are side issues. The fundamental principles are:


“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth.” - Joseph Smith Jr.

[avatar4321]

and if Mormonism had been made up a millennia ago, we probably wouldn't have records of people like the women who put Smith to the test. (who knows what records their could of been against mohammed that have been lost/erased from history!) However, it only happened a few generations ago, and so we do (:

But Mormonism was never made up. and we have countless records. not to mention ability to check the sources.

[avatar4321]

Like the LDS Church there are A LOT of similarities but enough difference to put them outside of the pale. It's my understanding that both Mormons and Muslims also believe that works are what finally get them to heaven and not grace. i believe some LDS folks deny this sometimes but from what i've read you HAVE TO do stuff to become a GOD in the afterlife, if you DON'T do certain things , like undergarments in the temple, you don't get the full package available in heaven.

That's not at all accurate. We believe that it's only through Christ that we can be redeemed.

[avatar4321]

^And there you have it, rarely do sentences like 'Faith is the denial of observation, so that belief can be preserved' fit so well.

The story, and test, of the missing pages is more than enough to convince me that the book of Mormon was not the reviled wisdom of an omnipotent god, even before one starts to consider other discrepancies. It all just sounds so very human.

and yet you wont read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge.

[avatar4321]

I have been referring to my Book of Mormon and how it came to pass. But after reading what you wrote, that does sound like the story i grew up knowing as to how he was told not to join other churches. I realized just now that my account is later on than your account. So yes, i do recall your story.

As a child, mom remarried a Mormon man. Prior to that, I was not attending any church. Dad died in Dec 1995 and that is the last time I was in the church for his service. My youngest sister remains very active in her ward. I was a pretty steady attender until I bought the first new car late in 1956. Mom and Dad at the time also was not going to church quite as much and since I could go as i pleased, I just got out of the habit. Over the years, they moved 5 hrs north into the CA redwoods and there they were very active. I was sealed in the Manti Temple to my parents when I was 17 when they got the temple marriage performed.

My family was among the founders of Salt Lake City and in that city we have a time capsule that is opened each half century. The last time it was opened, we were able to Xerox documents dating to the 1800s that had lots of rich church history in them.

you have alot of passion for someone who hasn't been to church for a while. I would invite you to come back and attend your ward. They need you. and you need them.

[gabosaurus]

Can't that same claim be made about all religions? Wasn't Islam simply made up? Difference is we don't declare Jihad nor cut off heads nor stone women who were raped.

Didn't Samuel Smith make up the Book of Mormon?
Please explain why there is more violence in the Book of Mormon that in the Quran or the Bible.

[avatar4321]

Didn't Samuel Smith make up the Book of Mormon?
Please explain why there is more violence in the Book of Mormon that in the Quran or the Bible.

No.

How exactly do you compare violence?

And why don't you read the Book of Mormon for yourself? Then you can determine how violent it really is.

[aboutime]

No.

How exactly do you compare violence?

And why don't you read the Book of Mormon for yourself? Then you can determine how violent it really is.



avatar. Forget Gabby, and Noir. Both of them are pure BIGOTS. Double-talking, hypocrites who only come here to prove how stupid they really are. Talking out of their ANAL cavities, thinking they make sense. But all they get is the stink, blowing back in their faces.

[avatar4321]

avatar. Forget Gabby, and Noir. Both of them are pure BIGOTS. Double-talking, hypocrites who only come here to prove how stupid they really are. Talking out of their ANAL cavities, thinking they make sense. But all they get is the stink, blowing back in their faces.

Christ said to reach out to everyone. and to love even your enemies. I dont really consider either an enemy. So I think i should at least talk to them.

[aboutime]

Christ said to reach out to everyone. and to love even your enemies. I dont really consider either an enemy. So I think i should at least talk to them.

avatar. I agree. And like you. I was taught to love others by reaching out to them. In fact. I do not consider them my enemy. My enemies are working to destroy our nation, and working to destroy any future My Five Grandchildren rightfully should expect to have.

The Lords Prayer tells of Leading us from Evil, and I avoid it whenever I can. But there are no verses in the Bible that teach us to always agree with those who are among the less educated, or who hate without forgiveness. That's where I draw the line. And there are some of our Fellow Human beings...some Americans who "KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO."

[avatar4321]

That's why we should be striving to live a Christ-like life and always encouraging others to do the same. So that they will know what they do.

[revelarts]

That's not at all accurate. We believe that it's only through Christ that we can be redeemed.

It's not my intention to misrepresent LDS teachings. But just so were clear.
what you just said is the you believe that it's only through Christ that we can be redeemed.
so does that mean it's not Christ PLUS all your good works and obedience to temple rituals to get the 3rd level of heaven LDS describes?

I've read that these Mormon verses mean it's really Jesus plus all the good works that you can do at your best effort.

Moroni 10:32 and 2 Nephi 25:23


And i mentioned several things about the LDS portrayal of God, were they essentially correct?
God was a man like us at one point?
There are many gods not just one true god and we can be one too?

[Robert A Whit]

Didn't Samuel Smith make up the Book of Mormon?
Please explain why there is more violence in the Book of Mormon that in the Quran or the Bible.

I am shocked you read all of the Book of Mormon. How else could you make such a claim?

11 Witnesses stated they saw the plates that Joseph Smith translated. I can't explain why any of anything took place. One would have to know why men do things that get written about.

[Robert A Whit]

It's not my intention to misrepresent LDS teachings. But just so were clear.
what you just said is the you believe that it's only through Christ that we can be redeemed.
so does that mean it's not Christ PLUS all your good works and obedience to temple rituals to get the 3rd level of heaven LDS describes?

I've read that these Mormon verses mean it's really Jesus plus all the good works that you can do at your best effort.

Moroni 10:32 and 2 Nephi 25:23


And i mentioned several things about the LDS portrayal of God, were they essentially correct?
God was a man like us at one point?
There are many gods not just one true god and we can be one too?

Avatar is more current on doctrine than I am. That stipulated, this is what I recall.

Everybody that goes to any church does works. If a person brings up religion and discusses it, the person is doing works. I believe you make far too much out of the word works. We believe in Jesus and believe we will live eternally by his grace. We believe this is the plan of God the eternal father.

We do teach about three forms of heaven. We do believe that there was a day when God was a man. Do you accept that Jesus was a man? Christian churches believe Jesus lived as a man. That he is God. I don't get your problem.

What if you were told by a teacher that there was only one human? Would that make sense?

We believe that God the creator has such awesome power that he can create Gods.

Can you think of any Christian church that teaches that God lacks the power to accomplish that?

[avatar4321]

It's not my intention to misrepresent LDS teachings. But just so were clear.
what you just said is the you believe that it's only through Christ that we can be redeemed.
so does that mean it's not Christ PLUS all your good works and obedience to temple rituals to get the 3rd level of heaven LDS describes?

I've read that these Mormon verses mean it's really Jesus plus all the good works that you can do at your best effort.

Moroni 10:32 and 2 Nephi 25:23


And i mentioned several things about the LDS portrayal of God, were they essentially correct?
God was a man like us at one point?
There are many gods not just one true god and we can be one too?

We keep the commandments and covenants we make with God because He asks us to and we love Him. Not because we can earn our salvation. Salvation comes through Christ.

The Book of Mormon clearly testifies of our need for the Atonement of Christ. Mosaiah 13:28 states "were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses"

Amulek testified: "For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made." (Alma 34:9)

Jacob taught: "Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corrup
</page-break>tion could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more." (2 Nephi 9:7)

One of the missions of the Book of Mormon is to point people to Christ and to His atoning sacrifice. Because it is only through the atonement that mankind can be redeemed. It is through His atonement that we are all promised Immortality through the Resurrection. It is through the Atonement that we have the opportunity to Repent. It's through the Atonement we are justified. and it's through the Atonement that we are sanctified.

It is the atonement that empowers us and gives us the ability to follow Christ and keep our covenants.

[Noir]

11 Witnesses stated they saw the plates that Joseph Smith translated. I can't explain why any of anything took place. One would have to know why men do things that get written about.

None of the 11 'witnesses' actually saw the plates, they only had visions of seeing them. Smith, as far as records show, was the only human to ever see the physical plates with his eyes.

[tailfins]

Didn't Samuel Smith make up the Book of Mormon?
Please explain why there is more violence in the Book of Mormon that in the Quran or the Bible.

Samuel Smith :laugh2:

Maybe in your case it's a good thing that teaching about religion isn't allowed in your school! Next I want to hear about Oliver and Maxwell Wright's flight in Raliegh, NC. and President Alexander Lincoln's leadership during the civil war. :salute:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Samuel Smith :laugh2:

Maybe in your case it's a good thing that teaching about religion isn't allowed in your school! Next I want to hear about Oliver and Maxwell Wright's flight in Raliegh, NC. and President Alexander Lincoln's leadership during the civil war. :salute:

:beer: :clap: :beer:

And Thomas Alfred Addlelson's INVENTION OF THE LIGHTBULB..:laugh:
I guess her being , "smarter than you are", has some very severe limitations which she so desperately needs to attend to.;)

[aboutime]

:beer: :clap: :beer:

And Thomas Alfred Addlelson's INVENTION OF THE LIGHTBULB..:laugh:
I guess her being , "smarter than you are", has some very severe limitations which she so desperately needs to attend to.;)



Oh, gee. Alexander Lincoln? What did he free? Cell phones for idiots?

[Abbey Marie]

Avatar is more current on doctrine than I am. That stipulated, this is what I recall.

Everybody that goes to any church does works. If a person brings up religion and discusses it, the person is doing works. I believe you make far too much out of the word works. We believe in Jesus and believe we will live eternally by his grace. We believe this is the plan of God the eternal father.

We do teach about three forms of heaven. We do believe that there was a day when God was a man. Do you accept that Jesus was a man? Christian churches believe Jesus lived as a man. That he is God. I don't get your problem.

What if you were told by a teacher that there was only one human? Would that make sense?

We believe that God the creator has such awesome power that he can create Gods.

Can you think of any Christian church that teaches that God lacks the power to accomplish that?

I do not want to get into your beliefs vs. mine. As I've posted before, we have too much in common and too much in the world against us, to pick at each others' beliefs.

I do want to say one thing, though: I do not think using Jesus as an example makes the claim that God was once man automatically sensical. There is a huge difference between God sending his son, who became a man, and a man becoming God. The latter would indicate than anyone could possibly "become" God.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I do not want to get into your beliefs vs. mine. As I've posted before, we have too much in common and too much in the world against us, to pick at each others' beliefs.

I do want to say one thing, though: I do not think using Jesus as an example makes the claim that God was once man automatically sensical. There is a huge difference between God sending his son, who became a man, and a man becoming God. The latter would indicate than anyone could possibly "become" God.


<TBODY>
<< (http://www.debatepolicy.com/8-18.htm) Romans 8:19 >> (http://www.debatepolicy.com/8-20.htm)


</TBODY>

<TBODY>
<TD><TD vAlign=top>
<TBODY>

<TBODY>
http://www.debatepolicy.com/parallel7.gif

</TBODY>
New International Version (http://niv.scripturetext.com/romans/8.htm) (©1984) (http://biblica.com/)
The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
New Living Translation (http://nlt.scripturetext.com/romans/8.htm) (©2007) (http://www.newlivingtranslation.com/)
For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.
English Standard Version (http://esv.scripturetext.com/romans/8.htm) (©2001) (http://www.crossway.org/)
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/romans/8.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) (http://kingjbible.com/romans/8.htm)
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God


<TBODY>
<< (http://www.debatepolicy.com/8-18.htm) Romans 8:19 >> (http://www.debatepolicy.com/8-20.htm)


</TBODY>

<TBODY>


</TBODY>



</TBODY>


</TBODY>