View Full Version : Neurosurgeon experiences after-life
Abbey Marie
10-09-2012, 08:52 PM
I plan to buy his book this month. So fascinating!
Dr. Eben Alexander has taught at Harvard Medical School and has earned a strong reputation
as a neurosurgeon. And while Alexander says he's long called himself a
Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs or a pronounced faith
in the afterlife.
But after a week in a coma during the fall of 2008, during which his neocortex ceased to function, A
lexander claims he experienced a life-changing visit to the afterlife, specifically heaven.
"According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way
that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma,
much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent," Alexander writes in the
cover story of this week's edition of Newsweek.
So what exactly does heaven look like?
Alexander says he first found himself floating above clouds before witnessing, "transparent,
shimmering beings arced across the sky, leaving long, streamer like lines behind them."
He claims to have been escorted by an unknown female companion and says he communicated with
these beings through a method of correspondence that transcended language.
Alexander says the messages he received from those beings loosely translated as:
"You are loved and cherished, dearly, forever."
"You have nothing to fear."
...
Read more:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/heaven-real-says-neurosurgeon-claims-visited-afterlife-213527063.html
glockmail
10-09-2012, 08:56 PM
"escorted by an unknown female companion" :boobies:
gabosaurus
10-09-2012, 10:40 PM
Jim would approve of the concept of celestial boobies. :cheers2:
I have seen so many reports of after-life experiences, there has to be something to it. One story I read in college had two men dying in a car wreck. The author described spending "an eternity" in what he thought was Hell. Until he was blinded by a bright light that said "you don't belong here." He ended up in a place with an aurora of bright lights and trumpets playing before coming back to life.
It seems that getting into heaven is a lot easier than people think.
"...while Alexander says he's long called himself a Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs or a pronounced faith in an afterlife"
In any case, this raises many more questions than it answers.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 07:58 AM
It seems that getting into heaven is a lot easier than people think.
"...while Alexander says he's long called himself a Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs or a pronounced faith in an afterlife"
In any case, this raises many more questions than it answers.
"Christian" means being a follower of Jesus, and believing that He is the Son of God. That's the sole requirement.
"Christian" means being a follower of Jesus, and believing that He is the Son of God. That's the sole requirement.
Following that reasoning (which ofcourse is perfectly reasonable) however, your remove the idea of morality from the equation.
It also means that anyone who is going to church, or doing things considered 'religious' are wasting their time. You get eternity in heaven without needing to atone for your sins, or hesitate in committing them.
gabosaurus
10-10-2012, 11:15 AM
"Christian" means being a follower of Jesus, and believing that He is the Son of God. That's the sole requirement.
As Glock said, Jesus died for our sins. You can be a sinner and still enter the Kingdom of Heaven. You need to repent your sins and pledge your life to God the Father.
I lived a sinful life for quite a while (some believe I still do :cool: ). But there came a point where I had to account for myself in the presence of God. I believe it happens to everyone at some time. You can either accept or reject him. God doesn't care. He has established a fork in the road of life. You can go one way or the other.
The pastor of the church I attended in Oakland put it this way: You can travel the bitter road or the better road. The choice is yours.
As Glock said, Jesus died for our sins. You can be a sinner and still enter the Kingdom of Heaven. You need to repent your sins and pledge your life to God the Father.
I lived a sinful life for quite a while (some believe I still do :cool: ). But there came a point where I had to account for myself in the presence of God. I believe it happens to everyone at some time. You can either accept or reject him. God doesn't care. He has established a fork in the road of life. You can go one way or the other.
The pastor of the church I attended in Oakland put it this way: You can travel the bitter road or the better road. The choice is yours.
We lets hope you can still get in as a sinner, or no one could possibly get in.
But my point isn't about committing 'some sin' he quite curtly states that while he considers himself Christian, he's not religious. I imagine much in the same way that my Dad considers himself a Protestant, even though I know we doesn't know the first thing about Protestantism.
I guess we'd need to know more about exactly how 'unrelgious' this guy was.
Also, theirs a hint of condescension, and prejudice in 'the better or bitter' road spiel, as it presumes that you are on a 'better' road life than I, and also that my 'life road' is a bitter one =/
Abbey Marie
10-10-2012, 11:28 AM
It seems that getting into heaven is a lot easier than people think.
"...while Alexander says he's long called himself a Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs or a pronounced faith in an afterlife"
In any case, this raises many more questions than it answers.
We don't know that he was in heaven. Perhaps he was on his way somewhere not quite in the presence of God.
I agree with you that it doesn't answer questions. How could it?
It's still all about faith, which I consider my most precious attribute.
Still a fascinating book, Ill bet.
http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID8928/images/a-heaven.jpg
We don't know that he was in heaven. Perhaps he was on his way somewhere not quite in the presence of God.
I agree with you that it doesn't answer questions. How could it?
It's still all about faith, which I consider my most precious attribute.
Still a fascinating book, Ill bet.
Or maybe he was subject to some sort of dream/hallucination while in a coma that medicinal science has yet to comprehend.
Abbey Marie
10-10-2012, 11:35 AM
Or maybe he was subject to some sort of dream/hallucination while in a coma that medicinal science has yet to comprehend.
Could be. We just don't know.
Could be. We just don't know.
Yep. All we do know is this doctor's gonna make a tidy wee sum, selling this book.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 12:08 PM
Following that reasoning (which ofcourse is perfectly reasonable) however, your remove the idea of morality from the equation.
It also means that anyone who is going to church, or doing things considered 'religious' are wasting their time. You get eternity in heaven without needing to atone for your sins, or hesitate in committing them.
No, since "following Jesus" means that you are living a moral lifestyle. And going to church is only a waste of time if you have a crappy pastor or aren't becoming engaged in the conversation.
Funny how BHO had both a crappy pastor and wasn't engaged in the conversation. Apparently he wasted 20 years sitting in Wright's church.
No, since "following Jesus" means that you are living a moral lifestyle. And going to church is only a waste of time if you have a crappy pastor or aren't becoming engaged in the conversation.
Funny how BHO had both a crappy pastor and wasn't engaged in the conversation. Apparently he wasted 20 years sitting in Wright's church.
Um, nooooo. Just because someone says 'I'm a Christian' doesn't mean they live a moral life, not by a long way.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 12:32 PM
Um, nooooo. Just because someone says 'I'm a Christian' doesn't mean they live a moral life, not by a long way.OK, but that was never my position.
Glock - As a tough recap of some of the above text -
... while Alexander says he's long called himself a
Christian, he never held deeply religious beliefs...
It seems that getting into heaven is a lot easier than people think.
"Christian" means being a follower of Jesus, and believing that He is the Son of God. That's the sole requirement.
No, since "following Jesus" means that you are living a moral lifestyle
So - Someone says they are a Christian, you state that means they are a follower of Jesus, and then go on to say that 'following Jesus means you are living a moral lifestyle.' That seems to be your position going by this thread...
By way of an example - plenty of people 'follow Jesus' and are homosexual. Do you think they living a moral lifestyle?
cadet
10-10-2012, 01:26 PM
So - Someone says they are a Christian, you state that means they are a follower of Jesus, and then go on to say that 'following Jesus means you are living a moral lifestyle.' That seems to be your position going by this thread...
By way of an example - plenty of people 'follow Jesus' and are homosexual. Do you think they living a moral lifestyle?
Just an FYI, i assume that since you're athiest, you know alot about what goes on in the church.
MOST christians are lukewarm christians. Which is "I believe, but don't care." Then there are those of us that believe, and follow christ's example.
He was obviously a lukewarm christian, and now he's not. Nothing the devil likes more then a bunch of complacent christians.
Just an FYI, i assume that since you're athiest, you know alot about what goes on in the church.
I know a fair amount, mostly because religious education is compulsory until you're 16 in the UK. But also because its a topic that I consider important.
MOST christians are lukewarm christians. Which is "I believe, but don't care." Then there are those of us that believe, and follow christ's example.
He was obviously a lukewarm christian, and now he's not. Nothing the devil likes more then a bunch of complacent christians.
Well if you believe the OP then the 'Luke warm' Christians have nothing to worrying about.
cadet
10-10-2012, 01:41 PM
I know a fair amount, mostly because religious education is compulsory until you're 16 in the UK. But also because its a topic that I consider important.
Well if you believe the OP then the 'Luke warm' Christians have nothing to worrying about.
Revelations 3: 15-16
“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth."
No, i think they'll burn.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 01:41 PM
Glock - As a tough recap of some of the above text -
So - Someone says they are a Christian, you state that means they are a follower of Jesus, and then go on to say that 'following Jesus means you are living a moral lifestyle.' That seems to be your position going by this thread...
By way of an example - plenty of people 'follow Jesus' and are homosexual. Do you think they living a moral lifestyle?One is a Christian by deeds and actions, not by mere declaration.
So for your specific example, a homosexual would not be a faitfull follower of Jesus if he acted on his tendencies.
Revelations 3: 15-16
“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth."
No, i think they'll burn.
Inwhich case you don't believe the OP man, fair enough. Nor do I.
One is a Christian by deeds and actions, not by mere declaration.
So for your specific example, a homosexual would not be a faitfull follower of Jesus if he acted on his tendencies.
You were the one that said a Christian is someone who follows Jesus, you didn't mention deed earlier.
And I assume you apply this to all sodomy? I mean. You can not be a faithful follower of Jesus if you act on tendencies like giving/receiving oral sex from a heterosexual partner?
cadet
10-10-2012, 01:55 PM
Inwhich case you don't believe the OP man, fair enough. Nor do I.
Well, I'm not saying i don't believe him, I see no reason why God wouldn't send a little proof of his grace while you're still alive.
You were the one that said a Christian is someone who follows Jesus, you didn't mention deed earlier.
And I assume you apply this to all sodomy? I mean. You can not be a faithful follower of Jesus if you act on tendencies like giving/receiving oral sex from a heterosexual partner?
You're dang right. All sins are the same in the eyes of the lord. A sin is a sin is a sin. Even our good deeds amount to nothing more then dirty rags. The point is to try, and to try your best.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 02:09 PM
You were the one that said a Christian is someone who follows Jesus, you didn't mention deed earlier.
And I assume you apply this to all sodomy? I mean. You can not be a faithful follower of Jesus if you act on tendencies like giving/receiving oral sex from a heterosexual partner?
I didn't mention that Christ was a Jew either. Some things should be so commonly known as to be "common sense".
Sodomy is a sin no matter who you practice it with.
Well, I'm not saying i don't believe him, I see no reason why God wouldn't send a little proof of his grace while you're still alive.
You're dang right. All sins are the same in the eyes of the lord. A sin is a sin is a sin. Even our good deeds amount to nothing more then dirty rags. The point is to try, and to try your best.
All sins are the same? Doesn't sound very just to me. Personally I'd put molesting toddlers a step down from lying, but I guess that's my dopey human brain at work. Obviously both are as bad as each other.
I didn't mention that Christ was a Jew either. Some things should be so commonly known as to be "common sense".
Sodomy is a sin no matter who you practice it with.
Inwhich case every Christian who gives/receives oral is not, in your words, a faithful follower of Jesus.
I image that's a lot of Christians...but fair enough, I guess it's only yourself you're affecting (and your wife)
glockmail
10-10-2012, 02:33 PM
Inwhich case every Christian who gives/receives oral is not, in your words, a faithful follower of Jesus.
I image that's a lot of Christians...but fair enough, I guess it's only yourself you're affecting (and your wife)
Those are not my words but the words of the Bible.
What my wife and I do in the privacy of our home is none of your business and shouldn't even be hinted at in polite adult conversation- hence the "attitude" of yours that I mentioned in another thread. :slap:
Those are not my words but the words of the Bible.
What my wife and I do in the privacy of our home is none of your business and shouldn't even be hinted at in polite adult conversation- hence the "attitude" of yours that I mentioned in another thread. :slap:
No but apparently it is your gods business, and in any case I already know what you 'do' because if you didn't it'd make you a bit of a huge hypocrite, and I wouldn't assume that of you ^,^
As for the reference about 'polite conversation' that kind of implies that discussion about sex is shameful, when its not.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 02:49 PM
No but apparently it is your gods business, and in any case I already know what you 'do' because if you didn't it'd make you a bit of a huge hypocrite, and I wouldn't assume that of you ^,^
As for the reference about 'polite conversation' that kind of implies that discussion about sex is shameful, when its not.
No it suggests that polite adults respect each other's privacy.
No it suggests that polite adults respect each other's privacy.
What privacy? You told me what your morals are regarding sex, so unless you say one thing, but do another, you've told me all i could know your sex life.
Edit - which is the last I want to say on the matter, before the topic derails further.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 02:58 PM
What privacy? You told me what your morals are regarding sex, so unless you say one thing, but do another, you've told me all i could know your sex life.
Actually I told you what is moral, in accordance with the Bible. I find your interest in my sex life a bit creepy.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 03:21 PM
...
Edit - which is the last I want to say on the matter, before the topic derails further.
Another example of the Glockmeister destroying his opponent's argument. :laugh:
jimnyc
10-10-2012, 03:30 PM
Yep. All we do know is this doctor's gonna make a tidy wee sum, selling this book.
And there are thousands and thousand of VERY similar stories from people that don't stand to gain a penny.
jimnyc
10-10-2012, 03:33 PM
Why would someone spend so much time in so many threads, trying to disprove something they don't believe in anyway?
glockmail
10-10-2012, 03:35 PM
Why would someone spend so much time in so many threads, trying to disprove something they don't believe in anyway?Because he hates God.
And there are thousands and thousand of VERY similar stories from people that don't stand to gain a penny.
Oh I know, trust me I've debated over plenty of them, what I always found most fascinating is how tweaked the stories are. Often Christians will meet Jesus, Muslims will travel to Mecca etc,
I even talked with a Witch when I lived in England, who had a near death experience, and she bore witness to her 'soul' entering a birds nest before it came back and she woke in a hospital bed, which she believed was proof of reincarnation, and that if she had died she would of been a bird in her next life.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 03:40 PM
And atheists experience cold blackness...
Why would someone spend so much time in so many threads, trying to disprove something they don't believe in anyway?
What have I tried to disprove? Like abbey I said we don't know, no-one can prove or disprove anything.
And atheists experience cold blackness...
Why wouldn't atheists have the same experiences as everyone else? That's the point.
If everyone who had a near death experience, or some sort of comma, all came back taking about the same thing, for example, their 'souls' entering animal nests. That would be weird, and worth investigation.
The fact that Christians see Christianity things, Muslims see Muslimy things, Reincarnationists see reincarnationy things, leads me to think (rightly or wrongly) that the subconscious in involved at some level.
Edit - Also, I'm sure there have been plenty of cases were atheists have experienced something that has meant afterwords they've become some sort of theist.
jimnyc
10-10-2012, 04:21 PM
Why wouldn't atheists have the same experiences as everyone else? That's the point.
If everyone who had a near death experience, or some sort of comma, all came back taking about the same thing, for example, their 'souls' entering animal nests. That would be weird, and worth investigation.
The fact that Christians see Christianity things, Muslims see Muslimy things, Reincarnationists see reincarnationy things, leads me to think (rightly or wrongly) that the subconscious in involved at some level.
Edit - Also, I'm sure there have been plenty of cases were atheists have experienced something that has meant afterwords they've become some sort of theist.
Last time I checked, while very different religions, Muslims still believed in Jesus as a prophet, still believed in the same God and also believed in Heaven.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 05:13 PM
Why wouldn't atheists have the same experiences as everyone else? That's the point.
...Yes it is the point. Atheists don't believe in God, so don't go to Heaven. They simply cease to exist, or they are tormented forever in hell. *shrug*
Last time I checked, while very different religions, Muslims still believed in Jesus as a prophet, still believed in the same God and also believed in Heaven.
And what about those who are witness to reincarnation?
Also, though I have no personal experience to speak of, i imagine Hindus for example happen to see Hindu gods in their commas/ near death experiences.
Abbey Marie
10-10-2012, 07:00 PM
Yep. All we do know is this doctor's gonna make a tidy wee sum, selling this book.
We also know that a highly educated "man of science", which you normally practically worship, strongly believes it.
We also know that a highly educated "man of science", which you normally practically worship, strongly believes it.
I don't worship anyone.
And he can believe whatever he wants, as strongly as he wants, it doesn't alter the fact of what happened, if anything.
SassyLady
10-10-2012, 07:30 PM
Um, nooooo. Just because someone says 'I'm a Christian' doesn't mean they live a moral life, not by a long way.
Doesn't mean they don't either. One can live a moral life and not be a Christian, just as one can be a Christian and not live a moral life. All sins are forgiven, are they not?
One can live a moral life and not be a Christian
Ofcourse.
Just as one can be a Christian and not live a moral life.
Again, ofcourse,
which was what i was getting at when Glock went with his "following Jesus means that you are living a moral lifestyle" thing
Robert A Whit
10-10-2012, 08:18 PM
My uncle died in combat in the first 2 weeks of the Korean war.
Mom woke up with a start. Dad tried to calm her down.
Gene, she told Dad came to her. And told her he died fast and not to fear dying. Gene was a Sgt and had spent a lot of time in combat during WWII in the pacific theater under McArthur. I saw Gene a short time before he shipped back to Japan and did not know he was again in combat.
Matter of fact, it was the day following his death that grandma got the letter from him telling her he was back in combat but do not worry, he told her.
Gene was reported later, missing in action.
It took them about 6 months to return his body for proper burial.
I grew up knowing this story.
I finally got to the bottom and I thank the internet.
I read the combat report of that mission he died on.
I wanted to know if what Mom matched the combat report.
It did. Same day. Same time period. And the area was just what she said it was. She did not name the city but she said he was shot and died in a rice paddy.
Each part of her story is verified.
I believe that we do live upon death. Not in a body of skin and bones, but soemething else.
Can't tell you what it is.
I suggest people read the book by Betty Eadie. She tells a very beautiful story.
Kathianne
10-10-2012, 08:30 PM
My uncle died in combat in the first 2 weeks of the Korean war.
Mom woke up with a start. Dad tried to calm her down.
Gene, she told Dad came to her. And told her he died fast and not to fear dying. Gene was a Sgt and had spent a lot of time in combat during WWII in the pacific theater under McArthur. I saw Gene a short time before he shipped back to Japan and did not know he was again in combat.
Matter of fact, it was the day following his death that grandma got the letter from him telling her he was back in combat but do not worry, he told her.
Gene was reported later, missing in action.
It took them about 6 months to return his body for proper burial.
I grew up knowing this story.
I finally got to the bottom and I thank the internet.
I read the combat report of that mission he died on.
I wanted to know if what Mom matched the combat report.
It did. Same day. Same time period. And the area was just what she said it was. She did not name the city but she said he was shot and died in a rice paddy.
Each part of her story is verified.
I believe that we do live upon death. Not in a body of skin and bones, but soemething else.
Can't tell you what it is.
I suggest people read the book by Betty Eadie. She tells a very beautiful story.
Thank you for the post. Thanks to your uncle and family for the sacrifice, may we always be worthy as a country, for it.
glockmail
10-10-2012, 08:48 PM
Robert, only fools believe otherwise. :salute:
glockmail
10-10-2012, 09:32 PM
I've never had experience with any relatives in the afterlife but I did talk directly with Jesus. This was about 10 years ago during our regular Sunday Mass. Our old church was fashioned after the original Tabernacle described in Exodus 36, but instead of a pyramidal tent with wood sides it had a pyramidal gypsum ceiling and brick sides. Instead of an opening at the top to let out smoke from sacrificial animals it had a shaft and a skylight to symbolize the sacrifice of Christ.
For those not familiar with a Catholic mass it is closely tied to the ceremony described in the Old Testament. We begin by cleaning our souls by a 'confession of all my sins' and everything is centered around communion, which is the sacrifice of Christ. The priest prepares unleavened bread and wine and summons the Holy Spirit to turn them into the body and blood of Christ. We commune to the altar and eat the body and drink His blood, and return to our seats. When I was a kid we learned specific prayers during all phases of the mass including communion, but being of bad recital memory I have chosen to meditate instead.
One day during communion meditation I experienced Christ come to my and speak directly with me. My eyes were closed and on the surface of my eyelids I saw black and white images depicting His face, more or less of artwork that I have seen throughout many years. He spoke to me in a sort of "digital" method, where short pulses of information were transmitted directly to my conscience, a much faster and more direct method of communication than speech and completely understandable. He told me what I was doing right and what I was doing wrong, I expressed by admiration and then he was gone. The entire conversation lasted mere seconds.
A few minutes went by while I continued to meditate and contemplate what had happened. I wasn't surprised or anything like that, I was imply at peace. The priest had sat down from his task of cleaning the offertory ware. Then my 10 year old son taps me on the elbow, leans over and whispers in my ear and points up to the skylight: "Daddy, I saw a cross come down from there and go right into your head".
The the priest stood up and communion was over.
Robert A Whit
10-11-2012, 01:09 AM
Thank you for the post. Thanks to your uncle and family for the sacrifice, may we always be worthy as a country, for it.
Mom was quite the surprise. Mom was maybe 6 years old when she had her first experience with death. Her slightly older sister had been taken to the hospital in Oklahoma and had pneumonia I believe. Mom is brought awake by the presence of her sister sitting on her bed. They talk for a while and somehow as I recall the story, Mom was told by her sister she had died in the hospital.
She wakes up her own mother and tells her. Course as a child, grandma did not accept it. Who would? It meant the loss of a child.
Next day, grandma and grandpa head to the hospital for a visit. They had no telephones at the time. When they arrive for the visit, she was not in the room. Asking where she was, they were told by staff that she died about the time Mom said she visited her miles from the hospital.
Another time, Mom suddenly tells us her aunt died. And though this time i can't recall any talking to the aunt, grandma got a phone call saying the aunt died. She was grandmas sister.
When grandpa died, my parents owned a small neighborhood grocery store. We got many calls per day from parents sending kids to buy something. Mom suddenly tells my Dad to please take the phone call since it is to tell her that her father just died.
Well, that is just what it was. Grandpa had been in the hospital for a long time and had suffered many years from a stroke that effected his left side. I still carry a vision of my grandpa sitting down holding his left hand on his leg with his right hand.
When mom died, I had no clue she was near death. She was enjoying a very good day for her per dad. Dad said she commented she felt very good. She had a sudden massive heart attack watching tv in her favorite easy chair. Dad heard her gasp and looked over at her and rushed to give her CPR. Too late. she died very fast.
Abbey Marie
10-11-2012, 12:02 PM
I don't worship anyone.
And he can believe whatever he wants, as strongly as he wants, it doesn't alter the fact of what happened, if anything.
That is why I said "practically" worship. I would think you would give credence to such a scientific man when he describes such other-worldly things. But I guess it depends on whether or not you like what he says.
That is why I said "practically" worship. I would think you would give credence to such a scientific man when he describes such other-worldly things. But I guess it depends on whether or not you like what he says.
No, his background is nothing to do with any beliefs.
He could be the greatest nuro-sergon alive, but also believe that the heads of states are transmorphed lizards.
I'd happily go to him for nuro-surgery, but i'd consider his lizard theory to be bonkers.
Abbey Marie
10-11-2012, 02:41 PM
No, his background is nothing to do with any beliefs.
He could be the greatest nuro-sergon alive, but also believe that the heads of states are transmorphed lizards.
I'd happily go to him for nuro-surgery, but i'd consider his lizard theory to be bonkers.
What you describe in your posts is a very closed-minded person. You should try being more open to possibilities. It won't hurt you.
What you describe in your posts is a very closed-minded person. You should try being more open to possibilities. It won't hurt you.
Are you much open to the possibility that Obama and Romney are actually Lizards, taking human form to control us?
jimnyc
10-11-2012, 03:32 PM
Are you much open to the possibility that Obama and Romney are actually Lizards, taking human form to control us?
I am, but there is no proof of that. There is historical proof of Jesus Christ and his miracles. Here's a good read:
At first, I was skeptical of all religions. The reason I initially considered Biblical Christianity is because it is the only belief system massively supported by historical evidence that can be objectively verified. It has the only set of ‘scriptures’ in the world filled with real places, real people, real historical accounts, and real scientific claims that are proven accurate when critically investigated. The Bible is also the only record that had a significant amount of future prophecy when written (~1/3). Man-made religions don’t come close to matching up to the overwhelming and flawless physical evidence that has been thoroughly examined and verified from the Bible.
Simon Greenleaf was Royal Professor of Law at Harvard and a main founder of the Harvard Law School. He wrote the famous legal volume A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, which many consider to be the greatest legal volume ever written. Greenleaf was a skeptic firmly set against Christianity, and taught his students Christianity was false. When one of his students challenged him to investigate evidence for Christianity for himself, he set out to disprove the Biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Greenleaf was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all myths at the heart of Christianity, and disprove it once and for all. However, this legal scholar concluded Bible eyewitnesses were reliable, and that Christ’s bodily death and resurrection were objective fact. If anyone should be qualified to state the reliability of Christ’s resurrection as an actual historical event according to the laws of legal evidence, it is Greenleaf. After years of exhaustive research and analysis, Greenleaf concluded:
“The foundation of our religion is a basis of fact – the fact of the birth, ministry, miracles, death, resurrection by the Evangelists as having actually occurred, within their own personal knowledge … it was therefore impossible that they could have persisted in affirming the truths they have narrated, had not Jesus actually rose from the dead, and had they not known this fact as certainly as they knew any other fact.”
Regarding the character of Jesus Christ portrayed by the Evangelists, Greenleaf determined:
“ the great character they have portrayed is perfect. It is the character of a sinless Being ; of one supremely wise and supremely good. It exhibits no error, no sinister intention, no imprudence, no ignorance, no evil passion, no impatience; in a word, no fault; but all is perfect uprightness, innocence, wisdom, goodness and truth.”
The entire framework of the Bible is based on reliable eyewitness accounts, which are the strongest form of legal evidence. These accounts include multiple eyewitness testimonies of the unique birth, life, miracles, death, bodily resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ.
Eyewitnesses included many people who knew Christ face to face for three years, such as the Apostles, so they could not have mistaken His identity. They saw, heard, touched, ate and drank with Christ after His bodily resurrection for 40 days. This overwhelming physical evidence overcame their initial incredulity and disbelief. They were so sure of their experience that they were also willing to die for what they knew to be true. People may sometimes die for a lie, but for a large group of individuals to all willingly endure severe persecution throughout their lives and die torturous deaths for something they know to be a lie (which they certainly would have known), doesn’t happen.
http://www.miraclesormagic.com/resurrection-jesus-christ-evidence-proof.html
Abbey Marie
10-11-2012, 03:44 PM
Are you much open to the possibility that Obama and Romney are actually Lizards, taking human form to control us?
:laugh2: For a Star Trek fan from way back, not all that far-fetched.
I am, but there is no proof of that. There is historical proof of Jesus Christ and his miracles. Here's a good read:
http://www.miraclesormagic.com/resurrection-jesus-christ-evidence-proof.html
And there is "proof" of Hindu Miracles happening today!
The Hindu milk miracle was a phenomenon, considered by many Hindus as a miracle, which occurred on September 21, 1995.[1] Before dawn, a Hindu worshipper at a temple in south New Delhi made an offering of milk to a statue of Ganesha. When a spoonful of milk from the bowl was held up to the trunk of the statue, the liquid was seen to disappear, apparently taken in by the idol. Word of the event spread quickly, and by mid-morning it was found that statues of the entire Hindu pantheon in temples all over North India were taking in milk.
By noon the news had spread beyond India, and Hindu temples in the United Kingdom, Canada, UAE, and Nepal among other countries had successfully replicated the phenomenon, and the Vishva Hindu Parishad (an Indian Hindu organisation) had announced that a miracle was occurring. in USA, it was observed at the Hindu Temple Society of North America (Ganesh Temple).
*** link added *** - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_milk_miracle
That 'miracle' was scientifically explained by surface tension vs gravity, were surface tension was winning, naturally however, the 'faithful' all over the world dismissed such an explanation.
These are things that still happen *today* even with all our scientific understanding and ease with which hypothesis can be spread. Not events that happened thousands of years ago in the -even more backward than it is today- Middle East.
jimnyc
10-12-2012, 07:59 AM
And there is "proof" of Hindu Miracles happening today!
That 'miracle' was scientifically explained by surface tension vs gravity, were surface tension was winning, naturally however, the 'faithful' all over the world dismissed such an explanation.
These are things that still happen *today* even with all our scientific understanding and ease with which hypothesis can be spread. Not events that happened thousands of years ago in the -even more backward than it is today- Middle East.
You forgot the link, where it gives a perfectly good explanation as to how this happened. It also contains a secondary link debunking this. What this has to do with the Professor from Harvard, I have no idea, but feel free to debunk his extensive research and findings.
You forgot the link, where it gives a perfectly good explanation as to how this happened. It also contains a secondary link debunking this. What this has to do with the Professor from Harvard, I have no idea, but feel free to debunk his extensive research and findings.
I did say in my post that there was a scientific explanation =/
But the point is that believers look beyond such explanations because faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
Even though we can prove what happened in this Hindu temples was a perfectly normal, people in their millions believe it was a miracle. Now apply that to miracles that were supposed to of occurred in illiterate, Bronze Age Palestine, millennia ago.
jimnyc
10-12-2012, 08:26 AM
I did say in my post that there was a scientific explanation =/
But the point is that believers look beyond such explanations because faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
Even though we can prove what happened in this Hindu temples was a perfectly normal, people in their millions believe it was a miracle. Now apply that to miracles that were supposed to of occurred in illiterate, Bronze Age Palestine, millennia ago.
The one you mentioned is simply something people believed. The one I mentioned went under long scrutiny and research by a Harvard Law Professor. Prove him wrong, or show me how an equivalent person scrutinized this Hindu event, or they are 2 totally different things as I have stated.
glockmail
10-12-2012, 08:26 AM
I did say in my post that there was a scientific explanation =/
But the point is that believers look beyond such explanations because faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
Even though we can prove what happened in this Hindu temples was a perfectly normal, people in their millions believe it was a miracle. Now apply that to miracles that were supposed to of occurred in illiterate, Bronze Age Palestine, millennia ago.
Wow you really think that folks in Israel two centuries ago were illiterate?
revelarts
12-07-2012, 07:38 AM
Neuroscientist has Near death experience...
writes NewYork times #1 bestseller book
Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife (http://www.amazon.com/Proof-Heaven-Neurosurgeons-Journey-Afterlife/dp/1451695195/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354882921&sr=8-1&keywords=proof+of+heaven)
Very interesting description of his experience.
lots of folks have experience, his is interesting and similar in some areas to many other different in other ways.
The take away I get from it is this
his disease made his brain incapable of dreaming this up.
He, as a neuroscientist, is now convinced that conscience is separate from the physical brain.
And that he touches on the fact that conscience is still a very deep mystery of knowledge.
And he now believes he meet God.
However the details of his story, though interesting, i think I'll stick to what Jesus said about the afterlife rather than what this guy or others Near death folks describe.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QOSb3G53HsA?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
darin
12-07-2012, 07:48 AM
He was featured on Through the Wormhole last year. :) The host is terrible at this; he stumbles and the name mispronunciation </SPAN></SPAN>is inexcusable.
darin
12-07-2012, 08:51 AM
Have to say, that video - his story? Beautiful. Just inspiring and wonderful. Thanks for sharing it
Larrymc
12-07-2012, 10:49 AM
Neuroscientist has Near death experience...
writes NewYork times #1 bestseller book
Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife (http://www.amazon.com/Proof-Heaven-Neurosurgeons-Journey-Afterlife/dp/1451695195/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354882921&sr=8-1&keywords=proof+of+heaven)
Very interesting description of his experience.
lots of folks have experience, his is interesting and similar in some areas to many other different in other ways.
The take away I get from it is this
his disease made his brain incapable of dreaming this up.
He, as a neuroscientist, is now convinced that conscience is separate from the physical brain.
And that he touches on the fact that conscience is still a very deep mystery of knowledge.
And he now believes he meet God.
However the details of his story, though interesting, i think I'll stick to what Jesus said about the afterlife rather than what this guy or others Near death folks describe.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QOSb3G53HsA?feature=player_embedded" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>Near death experience, Deja Vu, and real psychics, point to a Spiritual realm, though the Bible says we must come by faith and faith alone, these seem to be evidence,
Abbey Marie
12-07-2012, 10:52 AM
Threads merged.
darin
12-07-2012, 10:52 AM
though the Bible says we must come by faith and faith alone, these seem to be evidence,
Bible says LOTS of things. Says nobody gets to God unless 'called'. Says God calls everyone. Says Christ decended - upon his death - to secure 'the keys to the gates of hell' - if that's the case, sounds like hell as we've been taught probably doesn't exist - because, as the Bible tells us, God is not willing ANY perish.
:)
Abbey Marie
12-07-2012, 10:55 AM
Following that reasoning (which ofcourse is perfectly reasonable) however, your remove the idea of morality from the equation.
It also means that anyone who is going to church, or doing things considered 'religious' are wasting their time. You get eternity in heaven without needing to atone for your sins, or hesitate in committing them.
One cannot truly follow Jesus and be amoral, or fail to ask forgiveness for sins. Kinda comes with the territory.
Larrymc
12-07-2012, 11:12 AM
Bible says LOTS of things. Says nobody gets to God unless 'called'. Says God calls everyone. Says Christ decended - upon his death - to secure 'the keys to the gates of hell' - if that's the case, sounds like hell as we've been taught probably doesn't exist - because, as the Bible tells us, God is not willing ANY perish. all that maybe true, but doesn't dispute hell as we have been taught unless it taken out of context
:)all that maybe true, but doesn't dispute hell as we have been taught unless its taken out of context.
Larrymc
12-07-2012, 11:40 AM
Following that reasoning (which ofcourse is perfectly reasonable) however, your remove the idea of morality from the equation.
It also means that anyone who is going to church, or doing things considered 'religious' are wasting their time. You get eternity in heaven without needing to atone for your sins, or hesitate in committing them.not true if you are a true follower there will be evidence such as what you mentioned, though none of it will get you to heaven, you can't have true faith without it, though we can never be like Christ we must strive to be, even then we can't make, but if we have done the best of our ability, God honers that and his grace covers our short comings, Bible doesn't say there should be evidence, it says there will be evidence
darin
12-07-2012, 12:29 PM
all that maybe true, but doesn't dispute hell as we have been taught unless its taken out of context.
But it means hell as we've been taught is irrelevant</SPAN></SPAN> to our eternity. ;) Means nobody "goes there".
revelarts
12-07-2012, 01:32 PM
But it means hell as we've been taught is irrelevant to our eternity. ;) Means nobody "goes there".
The Aposlte John had this revelation from Jesus near the very end he says this
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And Jesus in Mathew 22, (to mention 1 spot) leaves us with the clear impression some folks aren't going to make it.
I'm not sure how you can honestly come too "nobody goes there".
by reading the text unless we use the bible like buffet table, taking only the portions we like.
aboutime
12-07-2012, 01:32 PM
all that maybe true, but doesn't dispute hell as we have been taught unless its taken out of context.
Larrymc. Between you and I. My thoughts about this Neurosurgeon are. He's full of it. Just profiting from what he claims was his conversation with God.
During my life. In fact. Within the last ten years. I had the terrible experience TWICE, when I died on a hospital bed. And CPR brought me back, and once in an ambulance where the EMT's also did CPR to bring me back.
And...I can say. In both instances. At no time did I see any LIGHT at the end of that Now Famous Tunnel. Nor did I see swirling lights, or hear anyone's voice asking me questions.
Fact is. The one common denominator I do remember during both instances when I HAD NO PULSE, and my HEART STOPPED was. Thinking about WHAT MY WIFE WOULD DO, and how would my grandchildren handle me...NOT BEING THERE?
After both instances. I can recall the power of the pain drugs I was given following my QUADRUPLE HEART BYPASS surgery. Where everything I THOUGHT I was looking at Became BRIGHT LIGHTS, almost like being at DISNEYLAND, with all kinds of colors. And my nurses all appeared to be dressed like AIRLINE STEWARDESS'S.
So. I do believe. This story. Though very pretty, and UNPROVABLE by anyone is BS.
Larrymc
12-07-2012, 02:41 PM
But it means hell as we've been taught is irrelevant to our eternity. ;) Means nobody "goes there".please teach me where the Bible teaches that, i hope its true, it would make life so much easier.
Larrymc
12-07-2012, 02:47 PM
The Aposlte John had this revelation from Jesus near the very end he says this
And Jesus in Mathew 22, (to mention 1 spot) leaves us with the clear impression some folks aren't going to make it.
I'm not sure how you can honestly come too "nobody goes there".
by reading the text unless we use the bible like buffet table, taking only the portions we like.i can't find it ether, there's a few situations i could handle in a more satisfying meaner if it were true.
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