Tomorrow Is 9/11/12

[Kathianne]

For the past 10 or 11 years I've watched this:

http://www.gunstuff.com/america-attacked.html

It on the Smithsonian remembrance site too.

Jafar and Abso, I seriously recommend you watch this, especially the end. 9/11 really caused a muted response, I doubt that another wouldn't result in much worse.

[jimnyc]

For the past 10 or 11 years I've watched this:

http://www.gunstuff.com/america-attacked.html

It on the Smithsonian remembrance site too.

Hundreds of new tributes are made yearly, if not much, much more. I can't tell you how many videos I've seen. And for some reason, I am always drawn back to this one. It's got to be part the music and part the timing of the pictures. It just shows you the reality of that day, and how no one was immune. So many countries lost citizens that day.

[Kathianne]

Hundreds of new tributes are made yearly, if not much, much more. I can't tell you how many videos I've seen. And for some reason, I am always drawn back to this one. It's got to be part the music and part the timing of the pictures. It just shows you the reality of that day, and how no one was immune. So many countries lost citizens that day.

I was like the 800th download on this. There is a very thin woman, who's carried by a man. The blouse she's wearing, my mom had. She looked like a younger version of my mom. There is also a clip of a funeral, the 'man' partly balding is a dead ringer for a young version of my best friend's father.

Coming from a police family, the whole 'hero' issue resonates with me. Even my ijit policeman (jk), brother stood in awe of the firemen of the NYFD that day.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

For the past 10 or 11 years I've watched this:

http://www.gunstuff.com/america-attacked.html

It on the Smithsonian remembrance site too.

Jafar and Abso, I seriously recommend you watch this, especially the end. 9/11 really caused a muted response, I doubt that another wouldn't result in much worse.

Want to honor those that were murdered ?
Force Islam to its knees, for only therr will Islam see enough light to stop its murdering rampage.
Doing that requires deadly force because they make it so!
They are savages to the core and only respect brute force savagely applied. All other methods are useless against them and history teaches that! Its Islam that must be actively fought not just the jihadists they send out. They are over a billion strong, they can send out these type fighters for centuries even far greater numbers for centuries! We must not yield a damn inch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!--Tyr

[aboutime]

Every Human with a soul, or heart who is old enough to remember what took place that day, should devote at least One moment of their busy life to remembering how that day changed America, and the World forever.

[Kathianne]

I remember that day, clear as a bell. I got to school early, working on lesson plans for conducting a moot court on electoral college. Remember the year. I'd spent the summer in LA, learning about teaching the use of court procedures in classroom.

As I said, got to school around 5:45 am, CST. Did some research and made some power point slides for students, early in the year, but wanted to hit the year running. Around 6:30, thought it time for a cig break, way before kids could be coming. Went out my classroom firedoor, and sat on walkway. The sky was so clear, it took your breath away. I remember thinking, 'in a few weeks the trees are going to turn, but right now, dark green.' It was about 75F and a sweet early morning.

Around 7:30, some of my 7th and 8th graders started knocking on the fire door. They needed help in subjects or were volunteering in library. By 7:45, those that needed 'help' had gone back outside and I was left alone.

Things happened rapidly after that. My friend, now an administrator at a profit school, im'd me saying, "Turn on CNN! Something is happening at WTC!" In all seriousness, I didn't know what WTC meant.

Each of her im's caused my speakers to 'brrriiinnnggg' She knew I had TV access, she didn't. The library kids heard the 'brrriiinnngggs' and were watching the TV I had on. We all watched and listened. At first it was 'small plane' but our eyes said different. Rather quickly, so did those of reporters. Then the second plane hit, my kids went, "Osama bin Laden," I said, "Oh Shit!" Then I turned the TV off and went to find the principal. I told the kids in my room to stay, not go outside.

Found the principal, explained what we'd seen and what was being reported. She ordered all the kids inside the building and came into my room. We turned on the TV again, CNN, and she decided for awhile that all the middle school students would come into my room and watch. So far, so good.

Below 6th grade, no announcements. Well that ended up having the 4th grade teacher putting CNN on her TV, while k-3rd didn't know about the attacks. The students had no background in terrorism to deal with. By 9am the 3rd grade teacher had over 75 emails from parents. There were parents coming to the office to take their children home.

The middle school kids got it, I had done a better job than I thought. We'd discussed both the USS Cole and the destruction of the Buddha images. We'd talked about the Taliban regarding the images and also about ID'ing gays. The 7th graders the year before had drafted a petition to Colin Powell to act regarding both the destruction of the Buddah and id'ing of gays. We asked kids to sign and mailed it off at the end of May, 2001. That was a mini lesson that I sort of forgot, but not the kids. For all the esteem I hold for Colin Powell, he never did respond.

When 9/11 hit, I had 2 kids in HS and 1 in MS. The MS had called my school and said that all students were in the auditorium, watching what was happening. They had teachers explaining what they thought was happening. If anyone wanted to pick up their child, no problem None did.

Pretty much the same as we were doing. Pretty much the same heartbreak. Both my son's school and my own had children of commissioned officers. There was no doubt that their dad's were going to be seeing serious service, unlike what went before. There were 3, none of the marriages survived.

[aboutime]

I remember that day, clear as a bell. I got to school early, working on lesson plans for conducting a moot court on electoral college. Remember the year. I'd spent the summer in LA, learning about teaching the use of court procedures in classroom.

As I said, got to school around 5:45 am, CST. Did some research and made some power point slides for students, early in the year, but wanted to hit the year running. Around 6:30, thought it time for a cig break, way before kids could be coming. Went out my classroom firedoor, and sat on walkway. The sky was so clear, it took your breath away. I remember thinking, 'in a few weeks the trees are going to turn, but right now, dark green.' It was about 75F and a sweet early morning.

Around 7:30, some of my 7th and 8th graders started knocking on the fire door. They needed help in subjects or were volunteering in library. By 7:45, those that needed 'help' had gone back outside and I was left alone.

Things happened rapidly after that. My friend, now an administrator at a profit school, im'd me saying, "Turn on CNN! Something is happening at WTC!" In all seriousness, I didn't know what WTC meant.

Each of her im's caused my speakers to 'brrriiinnnggg' She knew I had TV access, she didn't. The library kids heard the 'brrriiinnngggs' and were watching the TV I had on. We all watched and listened. At first it was 'small plane' but our eyes said different. Rather quickly, so did those of reporters. Then the second plane hit, my kids went, "Osama bin Laden," I said, "Oh Shit!" Then I turned the TV off and went to find the principal. I told the kids in my room to stay, not go outside.

Found the principal, explained what we'd seen and what was being reported. She ordered all the kids inside the building and came into my room. We turned on the TV again, CNN, and she decided for awhile that all the middle school students would come into my room and watch. So far, so good.

Below 6th grade, no announcements. Well that ended up having the 4th grade teacher putting CNN on her TV, while k-3rd didn't know about the attacks. The students had no background in terrorism to deal with. By 9am the 3rd grade teacher had over 75 emails from parents. There were parents coming to the office to take their children home.

The middle school kids got it, I had done a better job than I thought. We'd discussed both the USS Cole and the destruction of the Buddha images. We'd talked about the Taliban regarding the images and also about ID'ing gays. The 7th graders the year before had drafted a petition to Colin Powell to act regarding both the destruction of the Buddah and id'ing of gays. We asked kids to sign and mailed it off at the end of May, 2001. That was a mini lesson that I sort of forgot, but not the kids. For all the esteem I hold for Colin Powell, he never did respond.

When 9/11 hit, I had 2 kids in HS and 1 in MS. The MS had called my school and said that all students were in the auditorium, watching what was happening. They had teachers explaining what they thought was happening. If anyone wanted to pick up their child, no problem None did.

Pretty much the same as we were doing. Pretty much the same heartbreak. Both my son's school and my own had children of commissioned officers. There was no doubt that their dad's were going to be seeing serious service, unlike what went before. There were 3, none of the marriages survived.



Kathianne. My wife and I remember it the same way. Both of us were in our doctors office, getting physicals when we heard about the first, then the second plane into the WTC.
We continued with our exams until we heard about the Pentagon. Then...everything seemed to stand still, as both of us were in shock, and our physical ended.
Our daughter-in-law worked for the Marine Corps Comptrollers office IN THE PENTAGON.
Naturally. We both instantly feared the worst and my wife called our son, her husband right away.
Thankfully. After my wife managed to speak to him at work. He assured us....His wife, our daughter-in-law had been working instead at the Marine Base offices in Quantico, Virginia for more than a week.
FEAR was the result of everything, for everyone after that, and we Thanked God for still having her.

[Kathianne]

Kathianne. My wife and I remember it the same way. Both of us were in our doctors office, getting physicals when we heard about the first, then the second plane into the WTC.
We continued with our exams until we heard about the Pentagon. Then...everything seemed to stand still, as both of us were in shock, and our physical ended.
Our daughter-in-law worked for the Marine Corps Comptrollers office IN THE PENTAGON.
Naturally. We both instantly feared the worst and my wife called our son, her husband right away.
Thankfully. After my wife managed to speak to him at work. He assured us....His wife, our daughter-in-law had been working instead at the Marine Base offices in Quantico, Virginia for more than a week.
FEAR was the result of everything, for everyone after that, and we Thanked God for still having her.

I hear you and feel your panic at the time. As I eluded I was in a PS-8th grade school. I was the MS social studies teacher. While my youngest son's school called me, I had two in HS and no word from them and no time to call them. However, I did have confidence that they would do what was right. They did.

However, what I did forget was who was at 'home.' My invalid mother, my dad who was a brick regarding my mom, but had his own issues regarding battles. He was in 2nd or 3rd wave at Omaha. Purple Heart, but lots of military issues. They were watching on cable with my mom's 24/7 nurse, a Ukrainian doctor. Honestly, I never thought to call home, I was more concerned about my kids and my students. That was a big mistake.

I got home around 3:30, the nurse and my mom in tears. My dad was like, "Now we'll see Armageddon." He was not happy about that. I had to deal with that from there, not successfully.

[KarlMarx]

It was one of those days that defines a generation...

For our grandparents, it was Pearl Harbor...
For our parents, it was the day JFK was assassinated
For us and our children, it was 9/11

On those days, everyone remembers just how it unfolded, what they were doing, when they heard the news.

I worked from home for part of the morning because I needed help in getting work software installed on my home computer (back in those days, that wasn't considered a security risk). I hopped in the car and turned on the radio.... I thought I was listening to a recording of the Binghamton City Council meeting from the night before... then I heard sirens in the background... then I realized... the voice was Peter Jennings' (he was a well known newsman at the time)... ... the next thing I heard was "an airplane hit the World Trade Center"... and I thought.. it must have been an accident.. in a minute or two they announced a 2nd plane hit... and I realized we were under attack.... by the time I got to work 20 minutes later, all flights in US airspace had been grounded, the Pentagon was hit.... by the time I got to my desk, the first tower had collapsed...

I called my Dad and told him not to worry about my brother (who was on a business trip near Washington DC) and he didn't know what I was talking about... then I told him "turn on the TV... something really bad is happening".

The email and cell phone traffic was so heavy, nothing was getting through.. we were told by management to limit our emails to strictly business purposes only. It took me over an hour to get through to my brother... others I worked with wouldn't hear from relatives for several days.

I still remember those poor innocent people jumping from the towers because it was a choice of plummeting to their deaths or be burnt alive....and I can't stand to watch it still... because first it's the horror and then the burning anger

It's funny how everything you take for granted can just vanish in an instant. It's days like 9/11 that make you realize everything we know and love has the sword of Damocles hanging over it.

[gabosaurus]

Last year, on the 10th anniversary, one of the most poignant clips I saw was a group of normal Muslims (i.e. non-militant) leaving a wreath at the new 9-11 Memorial. They did it as American citizens who were affected, not as Muslims.

I have yet to hear of any members of Aryan Supremacist or radical right groups leave a wreath at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Kathianne]

Last year, on the 10th anniversary, one of the most poignant clips I saw was a group of normal Muslims (i.e. non-militant) leaving a wreath at the new 9-11 Memorial. They did it as American citizens who were affected, not as Muslims.

I have yet to hear of any members of Aryan Supremacist or radical right groups leave a wreath at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.

Poignant, yes. Though I notice without a ling. Typical? No.

[gabosaurus]

There are many things you can take from this day. It can be a day of hatred. Or a day of remembrance. A day of understanding. Or a day of ignorance.
There are always going to be idiots. The ones who perpetrate terror. And the ones that forever point fingers where they don't belong. Both are headed to the same spot on Dante's Ninth Level.

[taft2012]

Last year, on the 10th anniversary, one of the most poignant clips I saw was a group of normal Muslims (i.e. non-militant) leaving a wreath at the new 9-11 Memorial. They did it as American citizens who were affected, not as Muslims.

No doubt laying the wreath as a tribute to the fallen hijackers.


I have yet to hear of any members of Aryan Supremacist or radical right groups leave a wreath at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.

Has Bill Ayers laid any wreaths at the sites of his fatal bombings?

The "radical right groups" you bellyache about are isolated kooks, whereas the radical left groups you adore have a very prominent elected supporter. What was his name again.... oh yeah; Obama.

On that note of vicious pwnery, I'll say "good-bye Gabby, see you on the next thread."

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Last year, on the 10th anniversary, one of the most poignant clips I saw was a group of normal Muslims (i.e. non-militant) leaving a wreath at the new 9-11 Memorial. They did it as American citizens who were affected, not as Muslims.

I have yet to hear of any members of Aryan Supremacist or radical right groups leave a wreath at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.

This thread started as a remembrance and tribute to those that were murdered that tragic day. Why did you feel the need to change that and toss in a barb(one not even relevant to the subject)? Your overwhelming desire to defend the religion of those that murdered over 3,000 Americans that day led you to do this rude and crappy posting. IMHO you should be ashamed of what you did here. Instead in your twisted mind you are proud, right? And you are a teacher, right? I pity your students!!-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I was off work that day. I had the tv on and was cooking when the first news came on about it. I immediately called my wife's office and told her to turn on the TV there. Then as it unfolded and the loss of life hit me I was first shocked , then came the anger. A type I've never experienced before! I understood quickly the true source of this evil attack and unlike many I've never forgotten! The source was Satan and the religion chosen to work with was well known to him for it rejects Jesus's divinity. Today as I have every anniversary of this day I renew my pledge to never forget and to continue to tell others about the savagery and evil that is Islam.. Ihave made a vow to stand against it the rest of my life and pray I may be able to continue doing so even after my death!-Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

Last year, on the 10th anniversary, one of the most poignant clips I saw was a group of normal Muslims (i.e. non-militant) leaving a wreath at the new 9-11 Memorial. They did it as American citizens who were affected, not as Muslims.

I have yet to hear of any members of Aryan Supremacist or radical right groups leave a wreath at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.

Do you ever stop to think before you open your mouth? But as I have come to expect this from you I shouldnt be surprised when you make your usual low intelligence comments.

Leave your politics at the door for this thread.... NO POLITICIANS are allowed to speak today...

So SHUT THE FUCK UP and keep your idiotic stereotyping and political partisanship off the 9-11 thread...

Go to the CAGE and address the question I will pose to you there... this is no place for it...

[Drummond]

.. and Gabby just had to indulge in some opportunism on this thread. Appalling.

It's a day of remembrance, also of reflection. My thinking is that this day should also be one of focus .. considering what America faced that day, the attack on lives and freedoms. An assault from those who find Western values alien to them, who will happily murder and destroy rather than identify with the most basic human traits common to us all.

I feel that to fail to learn the necessary lessons of that day is to betray those who died from the attacks. An evil was responsible that needs to be defeated.

For anyone at all interested .. I was working at my office in south west London that day (Pimlico). Bearing in mind the time difference .. news reached my office a little before 3PM. We logged into what news feeds we could find on the Internet, and found pictures of the WTC collisions. Our collective mood was one of stunned horror.

My boss tried to contact people he knew in the US (I'm unsure if either friends or relatives). He failed. Within minutes, news sites became inaccessible, particularly American ones, and many of us had to wait until we could get home to a TV screen before we could get a proper understanding of exactly what was happening.

So, for us, detailed and accurate reports only unfolded that evening. And .. the rest is history, of course ...

[logroller]

This thread started as a remembrance and tribute to those that were murdered that tragic day. Why did you feel the need to change that and toss in a barb(one not even relevant to the subject)? Your overwhelming desire to defend the religion of those that murdered over 3,000 Americans that day led you to do this rude and crappy posting. IMHO you should be ashamed of what you did here. Instead in your twisted mind you are proud, right? And you are a teacher, right? I pity your students!!-Tyr
You introduced the derail and barb mr "bring Islam to its knees". Perhaps you confuse tribute with retribution...Perhaps you could arrange the 9-11 memorial to include heads on pikes.

Imho you're in no position to admonish another for being rude or disrupting a thread.

[Little-Acorn]

I cried that day.

And I've cried every time I see/hear this kind of tribute.

Even today, eleven years later.

Never forget.

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/firemen-flag-9-11-2001-b1.jpg

[Drummond]

You introduced the derail and barb mr "bring Islam to its knees". Perhaps you confuse tribute with retribution...Perhaps you could arrange the 9-11 memorial to include heads on pikes.

Imho you're in no position to admonish another for being rude or disrupting a thread.

Tyr's post is more in keeping with the sheer outrage of both the 9/11 attacks, AND remembering afterwards what was done.

For your part, I say that you confuse justice with surrender.

I'm not at all sure that today is a fitting day to engage you in combative posting. However, each person will associate this day with what they regard as the most appropriate feelings to hold as a response to the disgusting outrage that was committed on 11th September 2001.

For my part .. I'm clear about what I would want to happen had I been one of 9/11's victims. I'd want those responsible, and those choosing to be part of the evil spawned on that day, to suffer total and permanent defeat. What I would NOT want is for anyone to come along and find reasons to deny the victims the ultimate justice their fate says is deserved.

Perhaps you've forgotten the American reaction to the news of Osama bin Laden's death ?

[Drummond]

For anyone who'd want to learn of this .. I maintain a form of 'friends' link on Facebook with George W Bush. Posted approximately two hours ago on Facebook, Mr Bush added this ...


'On this solemn anniversary, Laura and I hold the victims of September 11th in our thoughts and prayers.'

3925

[Dilloduck]

You introduced the derail and barb mr "bring Islam to its knees". Perhaps you confuse tribute with retribution...Perhaps you could arrange the 9-11 memorial to include heads on pikes.

Imho you're in no position to admonish another for being rude or disrupting a thread.

:clap:

[tailfins]

Last year, on the 10th anniversary, one of the most poignant clips I saw was a group of normal Muslims (i.e. non-militant) leaving a wreath at the new 9-11 Memorial. They did it as American citizens who were affected, not as Muslims.

I have yet to hear of any members of Aryan Supremacist or radical right groups leave a wreath at the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.

You are comparing apples and oranges: Non-militant Muslims vs "radical right groups". If you want to compare Louis Farrakhan vs Aryan Brotherhood, you might be out of "straw man" territory.

[jafar00]

I am sick of tired of being blamed for 9/11. There was nothing Islamic about that attack. It was pure evil! The way it was portrayed as being perpetrated by "Islamic" radicals has cause untold amounts of suffering and abuse to millions of innocent Muslims who were just as shocked as you were on that day.

I remember the day well. I was at work in London when I heard "Some idiot just flew a plane into the WTC in New York!" I went to the Mosque that night to pray. Everyone was talking about it and how terrible it was. But there was also fear of what was being reported. Muslims were being blamed! One minute we were good, upstanding members of the community, and the next hated and reviled as being evil terrorists.

At the time I was living with a Moroccan family renting a room in their place. The were horrified at what was happening on TV. Their son Rachid was also a good friend of mine and was a medical student. A couple of months after he went to Afghanistan to help render aid and medical help for the Afghan people. A few weeks after that we heard that he was killed when the US bombed a whole village flat. RIP Rachid Ramdani

[tailfins]

It was pure evil!

I think that's what most of the board was waiting to hear. Brevity is the soul of wit. When you bury the simple phrase above in verbose debate, it gives the impression that you approve of the attacks.

[jimnyc]

I am sick of tired of being blamed for 9/11. There was nothing Islamic about that attack. It was pure evil! The way it was portrayed as being perpetrated by "Islamic" radicals has cause untold amounts of suffering and abuse to millions of innocent Muslims who were just as shocked as you were on that day.

I remember the day well. I was at work in London when I heard "Some idiot just flew a plane into the WTC in New York!" I went to the Mosque that night to pray. Everyone was talking about it and how terrible it was. But there was also fear of what was being reported. Muslims were being blamed! One minute we were good, upstanding members of the community, and the next hated and reviled as being evil terrorists.

At the time I was living with a Moroccan family renting a room in their place. The were horrified at what was happening on TV. Their son Rachid was also a good friend of mine and was a medical student. A couple of months after he went to Afghanistan to help render aid and medical help for the Afghan people. A few weeks after that we heard that he was killed when the US bombed a whole village flat. RIP Rachid Ramdani

I don't blame you for 9/11 in the slightest bit.

[Drummond]

I am sick of tired of being blamed for 9/11. There was nothing Islamic about that attack. It was pure evil! The way it was portrayed as being perpetrated by "Islamic" radicals has cause untold amounts of suffering and abuse to millions of innocent Muslims who were just as shocked as you were on that day.

I remember the day well. I was at work in London when I heard "Some idiot just flew a plane into the WTC in New York!" I went to the Mosque that night to pray. Everyone was talking about it and how terrible it was. But there was also fear of what was being reported. Muslims were being blamed! One minute we were good, upstanding members of the community, and the next hated and reviled as being evil terrorists.

At the time I was living with a Moroccan family renting a room in their place. The were horrified at what was happening on TV. Their son Rachid was also a good friend of mine and was a medical student. A couple of months after he went to Afghanistan to help render aid and medical help for the Afghan people. A few weeks after that we heard that he was killed when the US bombed a whole village flat. RIP Rachid Ramdani

So, you and I were both in London that day, Jafar ? Interesting. You'll doubtless recall Tony Blair's dramatic departure from a TUC conference, following initial reports about 9/11 ... which, as we later learned, were all about Blair assessing the situation, then offering GW Bush all the support possible. You'll also have known of the blanket coverage it got in our media from mid-afternoon onwards, and the (to begin with) somewhat confused speculation as to what had originated it.

But ... as for THIS ...


There was nothing Islamic about that attack.

... I'd have thought that the entire world is in disagreement on that one !!

Here's just one link which offers you stark disagreement ...

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/734613/al-Qaeda

... NOT from a politically motivated source with an axe to grind on this, Jafar, but from an EDUCATION SITE ... RUN BY THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITANNICA !!

I take it from your time in Britain you became familiar with who they are ?

I quote ...


al-Qaeda, Arabic al-Qāʿidah (“the Base”), broad-based militant Islamist organization founded by Osama bin Laden in the late 1980s.

Al-Qaeda began as a logistical network to support Muslims fighting against the Soviet Union during the Afghan War; members were recruited throughout the Islamic world. When the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989, the organization dispersed but continued to oppose what its leaders considered corrupt Islamic regimes and foreign (i.e., U.S.) presence in Islamic lands. Based in Sudan for a period in the early 1990s, the group eventually reestablished its headquarters in Afghanistan (c. 1996) under the patronage of the Taliban militia.

Al-Qaeda merged with a number of other militant Islamist organizations, including Egypt’s Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Group, and on several occasions its leaders declared holy war against the United States. The organization established camps for Muslim militants from throughout the world, training tens of thousands in paramilitary skills, and its agents engaged in numerous terrorist attacks, including the destruction of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania (1998), and a suicide bomb attack against the U.S. warship Cole in Aden, Yemen (2000). In 2001, 19 militants associated with al-Qaeda staged the September 11 attacks against the United States. Within weeks the U.S. government responded by attacking Taliban and al-Qaeda forces in Afghanistan. Thousands of militants were killed or captured, among them several key members (including the militant who allegedly planned and organized the September 11 attacks), and the remainder and their leaders were driven into hiding.

This is, purely and simply, an education site. And it's clear from this that those you want to separate out from Islamic association don't deserve such separation.

Face facts, Jafar. That you may be uncomfortable with facing them doesn't make them any less true !

[Gaffer]

I am sick of tired of being blamed for 9/11. There was nothing Islamic about that attack. It was pure evil! The way it was portrayed as being perpetrated by "Islamic" radicals has cause untold amounts of suffering and abuse to millions of innocent Muslims who were just as shocked as you were on that day.

I remember the day well. I was at work in London when I heard "Some idiot just flew a plane into the WTC in New York!" I went to the Mosque that night to pray. Everyone was talking about it and how terrible it was. But there was also fear of what was being reported. Muslims were being blamed! One minute we were good, upstanding members of the community, and the next hated and reviled as being evil terrorists.

At the time I was living with a Moroccan family renting a room in their place. The were horrified at what was happening on TV. Their son Rachid was also a good friend of mine and was a medical student. A couple of months after he went to Afghanistan to help render aid and medical help for the Afghan people. A few weeks after that we heard that he was killed when the US bombed a whole village flat. RIP Rachid Ramdani

FACT: Muslims were to blame. 19 of them. Thousands were training in afghan for attacks in other countries around the world. The taliban gave them support.

If your friend was in afghan within a few months of the WTC attack then he was definitely in a place he had no business being. A village that was targeted to be bombed would have been targeted for a reason. It was an enemy strong hold. Somehow I think aiding the afghan people is code for aiding the taliban.

[Drummond]

I think that's what most of the board was waiting to hear. Brevity is the soul of wit. When you bury the simple phrase above in verbose debate, it gives the impression that you approve of the attacks.

I have respect for Jafar's non-approval of the 9/11 attacks. This is good to read.

But it would help if the efforts I'm seeing to sanitise the stark truth about those who originated those attacks were abandoned forthwith. The truth is as we know it to be. It helps nobody at all (except for those least deserving of that help !) if we all allow ourselves to be lulled into some kind of delusional non-recognition of who and what originated this, to use Jafar's own words, 'pure evil'.

Do the victims of 9/11 deserve to have this happen ? Or are their memories deserving of a greater justice ?

[aboutime]

I don't blame you for 9/11 in the slightest bit.


jafar. Please identify...by name. Anyone on this board who has blamed you for what took place on 9/11.

Brevity as well.

[Kathianne]

I have respect for Jafar's non-approval of the 9/11 attacks. This is good to read.

But it would help if the efforts I'm seeing to sanitise the stark truth about those who originated those attacks were abandoned forthwith. The truth is as we know it to be. It helps nobody at all (except for those least deserving of that help !) if we all allow ourselves to be lulled into some kind of delusional non-recognition of who and what originated this, to use Jafar's own words, 'pure evil'.

Do the victims of 9/11 deserve to have this happen ? Or are their memories deserving of a greater justice ?

I too appreciate his condemnation of the evil of 9/11. I can accept that Jafar finds them to be evil. I can accept that he believes that most muslims are like himself. What I am observing though is that he is a Western muslim, regardless of place of birth or how he self identifies. Indeed it seems that he's spent most of his adult life, possibly even childhood in Europe and now Australia. From his posts it appears that most of his visits to the ME are just that, visits.

What has always bothered me are the few polls that have been done in Muslim countries find that while few are terrorists or aspire to be, they 'understand' why some do, according to the Koran. Educated Muslims, like Jafar and Abso say, 'that isn't so!' So I'd like to hear them address that.

[aboutime]

I too appreciate his condemnation of the evil of 9/11. I can accept that Jafar finds them to be evil. I can accept that he believes that most muslims are like himself. What I am observing though is that he is a Western muslim, regardless of place of birth or how he self identifies. Indeed it seems that he's spent most of his adult life, possibly even childhood in Europe and now Australia. From his posts it appears that most of his visits to the ME are just that, visits.

What has always bothered me are the few polls that have been done in Muslim countries find that while few are terrorists or aspire to be, they 'understand' why some do, according to the Koran. Educated Muslims, like Jafar and Abso say, 'that isn't so!' So I'd like to hear them address that.


Kathianne. Gotta differ with your assessment above. When you speak of 'Educated Muslims', like jafar, and abso. Perhaps you have forgotten. Osama Bin Laden was Educated partially, here in the USA. And he was a highly educated Saudi as well. So, drawing that imaginary line between Uneducated, and Highly educated just doesn't work in this case.
Giving someone a pass due to their education is exactly what today's liberal politicians do, when they make claims they are trying to increase the amounts of money being earmarked for Education...while, at the very same time. Democrats need to prolong, if not stop the growth of Black educational advantages in order to keep those who VOTE DEMOCRAT, always, just behind the learning curve to guarantee. They won't become smart enough to understand, or recognize how they have been played for their ignorance.
So Jafar, and Abso...do not get a pass from their attempts to hide their Hatred, merely because You, or I think they are more educated.

[Dilloduck]

Hell I understand why crazy people act crazy. It doesn't take a genius. Every society has it's crazies.

[Kathianne]

Kathianne. Gotta differ with your assessment above. When you speak of 'Educated Muslims', like jafar, and abso. Perhaps you have forgotten. Osama Bin Laden was Educated partially, here in the USA. And he was a highly educated Saudi as well. So, drawing that imaginary line between Uneducated, and Highly educated just doesn't work in this case.
Giving someone a pass due to their education is exactly what today's liberal politicians do, when they make claims they are trying to increase the amounts of money being earmarked for Education...while, at the very same time. Democrats need to prolong, if not stop the growth of Black educational advantages in order to keep those who VOTE DEMOCRAT, always, just behind the learning curve to guarantee. They won't become smart enough to understand, or recognize how they have been played for their ignorance.
So Jafar, and Abso...do not get a pass from their attempts to hide their Hatred, merely because You, or I think they are more educated.

Nope, not me mistaken. There's a vast world of difference between the 'educated' Muslims that are contending that Islam has been 'hijacked' and the educated Muslims that are saying that Islam needs to return to 'orthodoxy.' Osama was in the later group, as were those that masterminded and carried out 9/11.

For me the bottom line is the 'vast Islamic community' which includes many that are illiterate. They 'understand' how the Koran teaches jihad=blowing up buildings.

[Kathianne]

Hell I understand why crazy people act crazy. It doesn't take a genius. Every society has it's crazies.






at this moment in time, none that can compare with Islamicists.

[jafar00]

I don't blame you for 9/11 in the slightest bit.

When you blame Islam for terrorism, you blame me. I am a Muslim. I follow Islam. I have not and never intend to blow up something or myself for that matter. In fact my religion forbids it.


So, you and I were both in London that day, Jafar ? Interesting.

Yes. I worked for the RCJ in Court Funds at the time.




... I'd have thought that the entire world is in disagreement on that one !!

Here's just one link which offers you stark disagreement ...

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/734613/al-Qaeda

... NOT from a politically motivated source with an axe to grind on this, Jafar, but from an EDUCATION SITE ... RUN BY THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITANNICA !!

I take it from your time in Britain you became familiar with who they are ?

I quote ...



This is, purely and simply, an education site. And it's clear from this that those you want to separate out from Islamic association don't deserve such separation.

Face facts, Jafar. That you may be uncomfortable with facing them doesn't make them any less true !

Show me hard evidence from Islamic scripture that supports terrorism, not just opinions. AQ are purely political no matter how they spin their ideology.


FACT: Muslims were to blame. 19 of them. Thousands were training in afghan for attacks in other countries around the world. The taliban gave them support.

You mean that list of hijackers that appeared immediately after the event? Do you still trust that list after 7 of them were found still alive sitting at home wondering why they were reading about their own deaths in the newspaper?


If your friend was in afghan within a few months of the WTC attack then he was definitely in a place he had no business being. A village that was targeted to be bombed would have been targeted for a reason. It was an enemy strong hold. Somehow I think aiding the afghan people is code for aiding the taliban.

He was working for the Red Crescent and Medicins Sans Frontieres rendering medical and other humanitarian aid. He was one of the most gentle, selfless and honourable people I ever met. I am proud of him.


I too appreciate his condemnation of the evil of 9/11. I can accept that Jafar finds them to be evil. I can accept that he believes that most muslims are like himself. What I am observing though is that he is a Western muslim, regardless of place of birth or how he self identifies. Indeed it seems that he's spent most of his adult life, possibly even childhood in Europe and now Australia. From his posts it appears that most of his visits to the ME are just that, visits.

I have spent 7 out of the last 15 years living in the Middle East so they were not just visits. The rest of the time in Europe. I have been back in Australia just for the last 9 months and not by choice.

[NightTrain]

You mean that list of hijackers that appeared immediately after the event? Do you still trust that list after 7 of them were found still alive sitting at home wondering why they were reading about their own deaths in the newspaper?

That's news to me. Where did you hear this?

Please don't tell me something stupid like Al-Jazeera. Or Baghdad Bob.

[abso]

FACT: Muslims were to blame. 19 of them. Thousands were training in afghan for attacks in other countries around the world. The taliban gave them support.

If your friend was in afghan within a few months of the WTC attack then he was definitely in a place he had no business being. A village that was targeted to be bombed would have been targeted for a reason. It was an enemy strong hold. Somehow I think aiding the afghan people is code for aiding the taliban.

19, thousands ???, yet there are more than 1.7 Billion Muslims, 1700 Million Muslims, 1,700,000 Thousand Muslims, 1,700,000,000 Muslims in this world, and your solution is to blame Islam itself which is a religion practiced by more than 1,700,000,000 humans allover the world because 19 men executed an attack and few thousands trained for another attacks in which most of them happened in Muslim countries killing another innocent Muslims ?

[NightTrain]

19, thousands ???, yet there are more than 1.7 Billion Muslims, 1700 Million Muslims, 1,700,000 Thousand Muslims, 1,700,000,000 Muslims in this world, and your solution is to blame Islam itself which is a religion practiced by more than 1,700,000,000 humans allover the world because 19 men executed an attack and few thousands trained for another attacks in which most of them happened in Muslim countries killing another innocent Muslims ?


Yes, Abso. Along with the thousands of other atrocities committed by your Peaceful Muslim brothers against the civilized world.

[abso]

That's news to me. Where did you hear this?

Please don't tell me something stupid like Al-Jazeera. Or Baghdad Bob.

what makes your government any more credible than Al-Jazeera, i am not saying that 7 people sitting in their homes read about their death in newspapers, i don't really know if that is true or not, in fact i never read about that and it's news to me as it to you and i don't really care if it's true or not and i am not even going to try to search for it, but my point is, what makes your government credible and Al-Jazeera not ?

[NightTrain]

what makes your government any more credible than Al-Jazeera, i am not saying that 7 people sitting in their homes read about their death in newspapers, i don't really know if that is true or not, in fact i never read about that and it's news to me as it to you and i don't really care if it's true or not and i am not even going to try to search for it, but my point is, what makes your government credible and Al-Jazeera not ?


God DAMN that's funny!

Well... I suppose there's more than one Achmed Mohammed running around... :laugh:

Gee, I don't know... Airport cameras, Passport documents, airline documentation... but yeah, if you muzzies say they weren't there, I guess that's good enough for me.

[abso]

Yes, Abso. Along with the thousands of other atrocities committed by your Peaceful Muslim brothers against the civilized world.

okay, on behalf of the 1.7 Billion people, i apologize for annoying you by our existence, just close your eyes and imagine that we don't exist and you will immediately feel better ;)

[abso]

God DAMN that's funny!

Well... I suppose there's more than one Achmed Mohammed running around... :laugh:

Gee, I don't know... Airport cameras, Passport documents, airline documentation... but yeah, if you muzzies say they weren't there, I guess that's good enough for me.

so you claim that Airport cameras, Passport documents, airline documentation can not be fabricated at all, and that they are 100% credible with not even a possible shred of doubt ?

[Gaffer]

so you claim that Airport cameras, Passport documents, airline documentation can not be fabricated at all, and that they are 100% credible with not even a possible shred of doubt ?

Can you prove the koran is not a fabricated document?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Can you prove the koran is not a fabricated document?

He could but it would require drawing a cartoon and that is forbidden! Head chopping kind of forbidden.
The dead camel driver said so.-;)

[gabosaurus]

Can you prove the koran is not a fabricated document?

Can you prove the Bible is not a fabricated document? No one can.

I find it ludicrous that we are blaming millions of people for the actions of a small group of loons. But that is just the way the minds of crazy people work. They always need someone to hate.
And yet you wonder why many black people still hold a grudge against whites.
But hey, go ahead and hate. It's a basic American freedom.

[Kathianne]

I give you Rick Recoria:

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/000307.html

He died, though he'd told repeatedly the powers that be, that it would happen.

[gabosaurus]

Several people warned Clinton about the possibility of an attack. He never listened.
Some of the same people warned Bush about the possibility of an attack. As late as August. Bush never thought they were "credible."
Stupid politicians (both parties) are as much to blame for the Sept. 11 attacks as radical Muslims.

[Kathianne]

Several people warned Clinton about the possibility of an attack. He never listened.
Some of the same people warned Bush about the possibility of an attack. As late as August. Bush never thought they were "credible."
Stupid politicians (both parties) are as much to blame for the Sept. 11 attacks as radical Muslims.

Not like him:http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/02/11/020211fa_fact_stewart

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Several people warned Clinton about the possibility of an attack. He never listened.
Some of the same people warned Bush about the possibility of an attack. As late as August. Bush never thought they were "credible."
Stupid politicians (both parties) are as much to blame for the Sept. 11 attacks as radical Muslims.

You are off your gourd . Blame for 9/11 falls square on those that did the deed and those that sanctioned it becaose the Koran justifies it. Guilty parties are the hijackers, radical Islamist leaders and Allah. We can not shoot Allah, the others arent as protected!-:laugh: They may think they are. -Tyr

[Drummond]

Yes. I worked for the RCJ in Court Funds at the time.

Just thought I'd reply to this in passing.

Jafar, what a small world it is (.. ask any passing terrorist aeroplane hijacker with a few hours to 'kill' ...).

'RCJ' has to refer to the Royal Courts of Justice, in the Strand, London. Just at the entrance to Fleet Street, at the Aldwych end ... opposite Twinings tea shop (.. their Head Office, by the way .. Twinings has been trading from there for as long as it's existed, going back three hundred years ...). I used to visit it regularly.

On 11th September 2001 I was in Pimlico, as I said. But before working there, I worked in the building opposite Bush House .. at the Aldwych end of Kingsway. If you know that area well, you'll know which building that should be.

If you had been at the RCJ in early 2000, you and I would've been approximately five minutes' walk apart. Who knows ... I might've passed you in the street ...

[Drummond]

Can you prove the Bible is not a fabricated document? No one can.

I find it ludicrous that we are blaming millions of people for the actions of a small group of loons. But that is just the way the minds of crazy people work. They always need someone to hate.
And yet you wonder why many black people still hold a grudge against whites.
But hey, go ahead and hate. It's a basic American freedom.

For your information, Gabby, 'blaming millions of people for the actions of a small group of loons' has ample precedence, and is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Obvious example ... any electorate voting Left-wing politicians into power is ripe for taking the blame for putting those politician 'loons' into a position of doing great harm.

For a Muslim example, one could ponder the example of Mohammed Morsi being elected into power in Egypt, handing Egypt over to the Muslim Brotherhood. Just what the Middle East, and for that matter the wider world, could REALLY do with .. eh ?

As for Islamists more generally, well, they have Islam to draw on for 'inspiration'. We see the result. Jihadist attacks, for example ... such as 9/11 ...

[jafar00]

You are off your gourd . Blame for 9/11 falls square on those that did the deed and those that sanctioned it becaose the Koran justifies it. Guilty parties are the hijackers, radical Islamist leaders and Allah. We can not shoot Allah, the others arent as protected!-:laugh: They may think they are. -Tyr

Ok I'll bite. What part of the Qur'aan justifies what happened on 9/11?


Just thought I'd reply to this in passing.

Jafar, what a small world it is (.. ask any passing terrorist aeroplane hijacker with a few hours to 'kill' ...).

'RCJ' has to refer to the Royal Courts of Justice, in the Strand, London. Just at the entrance to Fleet Street, at the Aldwych end ... opposite Twinings tea shop (.. their Head Office, by the way .. Twinings has been trading from there for as long as it's existed, going back three hundred years ...). I used to visit it regularly.

On 11th September 2001 I was in Pimlico, as I said. But before working there, I worked in the building opposite Bush House .. at the Aldwych end of Kingsway. If you know that area well, you'll know which building that should be.

If you had been at the RCJ in early 2000, you and I would've been approximately five minutes' walk apart. Who knows ... I might've passed you in the street ...

Small world indeed!

The Court Funds Office was (is still?) on Kingsway near Holborn so it is likely we may have walked past each other! I remember watching an eclipse in Lincoln's Inn at the back of our office around that time. Maybe you were there? Some of my colleagues used to go to "The George" for liquid lunch. I just went there for the awesome chips and the company :)

[Drummond]

Ok I'll bite. What part of the Qur'aan justifies what happened on 9/11?



Small world indeed!

The Court Funds Office was (is still?) on Kingsway near Holborn so it is likely we may have walked past each other! I remember watching an eclipse in Lincoln's Inn at the back of our office around that time. Maybe you were there? Some of my colleagues used to go to "The George" for liquid lunch. I just went there for the awesome chips and the company :)

Even more interesting !

I wasn't aware of a Court Funds Office where you say it was, but then, I'm sure I could've easily walked past it without noticing. Unless .. was it located where the old Public Trustee Office used to be ? Presumably not Alexandra House, though, on the other side of the road ? [My thinking was that you had an office within the large Court building in the Strand.]

I WAS in that area when the eclipse happened (August 1999). A substantial number of our people walked the short distance across the Aldwych to Temple Tube station, and beyond it, to reach the Victoria Embankment. It was from there that we watched the eclipse .. joining a large crowd of people already there, staring across the Thames to see the effect there. The eclipse was only total from Cornwall (within the UK), though as you'll remember, it was nonetheless NEAR total. I remember it well.

'The George' (local name for it), otherwise the George IV pub, at the back of Portugal Street, I think. Yes, I recall strolling to it from the vicinity of the Old Curiosity Shop. I've been there something like 25-30 times. Just possibly you were there when I was, & might've been seated yards away from me ? That was the pub where I was introduced to a deceptively alcoholic lager-like drink called 'Snakebite' one lunchtime. I was quite literally 'legless' for much of the afternoon after just 2 pints of it .. walking became a near-impossibility ...

A small world, indeed ...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Even more interesting !

I wasn't aware of a Court Funds Office where you say it was, but then, I'm sure I could've easily walked past it without noticing. Unless .. was it located where the old Public Trustee Office used to be ? Presumably not Alexandra House, though, on the other side of the road ? [My thinking was that you had an office within the large Court building in the Strand.]

I WAS in that area when the eclipse happened (August 1999). A substantial number of our people walked the short distance across the Aldwych to Temple Tube station, and beyond it, to reach the Victoria Embankment. It was from there that we watched the eclipse .. joining a large crowd of people already there, staring across the Thames to see the effect there. The eclipse was only total from Cornwall (within the UK), though as you'll remember, it was nonetheless NEAR total. I remember it well.

'The George' (local name for it), otherwise the George IV pub, at the back of Portugal Street, I think. Yes, I recall strolling to it from the vicinity of the Old Curiosity Shop. I've been there something like 25-30 times. Just possibly you were there when I was, & might've been seated yards away from me ? That was the pub where I was introduced to a deceptively alcoholic lager-like drink called 'Snakebite' one lunchtime. I was quite literally 'legless' for much of the afternoon after just 2 pints of it .. walking became a near-impossibility ...

A small world, indeed ...

Small world indeed , you two having been yards apart in London. Now worlds apart posting here. -;)-Tyr

[Drummond]

Small world indeed , you two having been yards apart in London. Now worlds apart posting here. -;)-Tyr

Never a truer word 'spoken' .. !!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Never a truer word 'spoken' .. !!

Here is the rub as I see it. Jafar is a likeable fellow. Undoubtably believes in his religion and quite likely sincerely posts his beliefs about his religion. That can be on one scale admirable but that scale does not join to tip the other scale were the measure of his words are weighed for truth and facts. In short he may be sincere, intelligent but neither prove his point of view on Islam is correct. For to me it clearly proves his blindness , a blindness that the religion itself not only promotes but actually commands!
Perhaps he will post on this too further explain his point of view.
He is worlds apart from my stand on Islam and its many faults just as he is on yours..
One may respect his sincerity without doing the same for his blindness.-Tyr