Study: JFK lone-gunman evidence 'not a slam dunk'

[nevadamedic]

HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- New testing on the type of ammunition used in the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy raises questions about whether Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, according to a study by researchers at Texas A&M University.

Lead research Cliff Spiegelman stressed, however, that the research doesn't necessarily support conspiracy theorists who for decades have doubted Oswald was the lone gunman.

"We're not saying there was a conspiracy. All we're saying is the evidence that was presented as a slam dunk for a single shooter is not a slam dunk," said Spiegelman, a Texas A&M statistics professor and an expert in bullet-lead analysis.

The Warren Commission concluded in 1964 that Oswald fired three shots at Kennedy's motorcade from the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas. The U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations agreed in 1979 and found that the two bullets that hit Kennedy came from Oswald's rifle.

The committee's findings were based in part on the testimony of the late forensic chemist Vincent Guinn, who said recovered fragments came from only two bullets. Guinn testified that the bullets Oswald used, Western-Winchester Cartridge Co. Mannlicher-Carcano bullets, were unique and that it would be possible to distinguish one from another even if they both came from the same box.

But Spiegelman and his fellow researchers, who tested 30 of the same type of bullets, found that fragments were not nearly so rare and that bullets within the same box could match one another. One of the test bullets also matched one or more of the assassination fragments.

"This finding means that the bullet fragments from the assassination that match could have come from three or more separate bullets," the researchers wrote in a paper detailing their study, set to be published later this year by the journal "Annals of Applied Statistics."

The study is available on the journal's Web site. (Read the study - PDF)

"If the assassination fragments are derived from three or more separate bullets, then a second assassin is likely, as the additional bullet would not be attributable to the main suspect, Mr. Oswald," they wrote.

The bullets Spiegelman's team used were from two of only four lots ever produced of the ammunition. The researchers were able to test for more elements than Guinn and used better quality control techniques, Spiegelman said.

Gary Mack, curator of the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas, which focuses on Kennedy's life and assassination, questioned the study's methods.

"Their study can't answer anything about the assassination," he said. "That's my understanding of it because they didn't test the actual fragments. They tested similar fragments and found that the test itself is flawed."

Conspiracy supporters believe it helps prove that Oswald didn't act alone.

"Is this going to solve the case, create further investigation or change anybody's mind? Probably not, but it supports the contentions of conspiracy researchers all through the years," said Jim Marrs, whose book, "Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy" was one of two used as the basis for Oliver Stone's conspiracy film "JFK."

Spiegelman advocates for the bullet fragments from the assassination to undergo more rigorous analysis. Further testing of the fragments would be up to the National Archives and Records Administration, the legal custodian of the projectiles and other evidence used by the Warren Commission.

The last time the fragments were tested was in 1999. The examination was inconclusive.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/25/jfk.bullets.ap/index.html

Wow, it's not like anyone believed the Lee Harvey Oswald thery anyways.

[Gaffer]

I've always thought there was a second shooter.

[gabosaurus]

From what little I have read, it has never been a slam dunk. Except to those who want it to be.
Having someone conveniently shoot Oswald the next day should be a tip off to that.

[Gunny]

HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- New testing on the type of ammunition used in the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy raises questions about whether Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, according to a study by researchers at Texas A&M University.

Lead research Cliff Spiegelman stressed, however, that the research doesn't necessarily support conspiracy theorists who for decades have doubted Oswald was the lone gunman.

"We're not saying there was a conspiracy. All we're saying is the evidence that was presented as a slam dunk for a single shooter is not a slam dunk," said Spiegelman, a Texas A&M statistics professor and an expert in bullet-lead analysis.

The Warren Commission concluded in 1964 that Oswald fired three shots at Kennedy's motorcade from the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas. The U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations agreed in 1979 and found that the two bullets that hit Kennedy came from Oswald's rifle.

The committee's findings were based in part on the testimony of the late forensic chemist Vincent Guinn, who said recovered fragments came from only two bullets. Guinn testified that the bullets Oswald used, Western-Winchester Cartridge Co. Mannlicher-Carcano bullets, were unique and that it would be possible to distinguish one from another even if they both came from the same box.

But Spiegelman and his fellow researchers, who tested 30 of the same type of bullets, found that fragments were not nearly so rare and that bullets within the same box could match one another. One of the test bullets also matched one or more of the assassination fragments.

"This finding means that the bullet fragments from the assassination that match could have come from three or more separate bullets," the researchers wrote in a paper detailing their study, set to be published later this year by the journal "Annals of Applied Statistics."

The study is available on the journal's Web site. (Read the study - PDF)

"If the assassination fragments are derived from three or more separate bullets, then a second assassin is likely, as the additional bullet would not be attributable to the main suspect, Mr. Oswald," they wrote.

The bullets Spiegelman's team used were from two of only four lots ever produced of the ammunition. The researchers were able to test for more elements than Guinn and used better quality control techniques, Spiegelman said.

Gary Mack, curator of the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas, which focuses on Kennedy's life and assassination, questioned the study's methods.

"Their study can't answer anything about the assassination," he said. "That's my understanding of it because they didn't test the actual fragments. They tested similar fragments and found that the test itself is flawed."

Conspiracy supporters believe it helps prove that Oswald didn't act alone.

"Is this going to solve the case, create further investigation or change anybody's mind? Probably not, but it supports the contentions of conspiracy researchers all through the years," said Jim Marrs, whose book, "Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy" was one of two used as the basis for Oliver Stone's conspiracy film "JFK."

Spiegelman advocates for the bullet fragments from the assassination to undergo more rigorous analysis. Further testing of the fragments would be up to the National Archives and Records Administration, the legal custodian of the projectiles and other evidence used by the Warren Commission.

The last time the fragments were tested was in 1999. The examination was inconclusive.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/25/jfk.bullets.ap/index.html

Wow, it's not like anyone believed the Lee Harvey Oswald thery anyways.

The evidence easily supports a lone gunman (Oswald). A second or more shooter(s) is required only if actual event/fact is altered and/or ignored.

[Doniston]

I've always thought there was a second shooter. There was, it was proven and then covered up, the proof is not in the fragments of the bullets, but in the fragmants of Kennedy' skull. some found in the bushes alongside the spot where he was shot.

[Gunny]

There was, it was proven and then covered up, the proof is not in the fragments of the bullets, but in the fragmants of Kennedy' skull. some found in the bushes alongside the spot where he was shot.

There is absolutely NO evidence/proof of a second shooter that isn't contrived BS.

[Gaffer]

There was, it was proven and then covered up, the proof is not in the fragments of the bullets, but in the fragmants of Kennedy' skull. some found in the bushes alongside the spot where he was shot.

yep I heard that too. I also remember the first time I saw the film of him being hit. One shot was definately from the front.

The back of his head was blown out. Only exit wounds do that.

[Mr. P]

G.W Bush did it! Hey his daddy was on the Warren commission, I'm sure it was a cover up! :)

[Gunny]

G.W Bush did it! Hey his daddy was on the Warren commission, I'm sure it was a cover up! :)

Damn ... I bet he was hoping no one was going to figure that out.:laugh2:

[loosecannon]

From what little I have read, it has never been a slam dunk. Except to those who want it to be.
Having someone conveniently shoot Oswald the next day should be a tip off to that.


BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[loosecannon]

There is absolutely NO evidence/proof of a second shooter that isn't contrived BS.

Are you on crack? Why has the Warren commission report never been released?

You think you have access to definitive data? Show me the Warren Co. report.

Then there was Bobby.........

(anybody who doesn't believe the MIC hit the bros is head deep in desert sand)

[nevadamedic]

There was, it was proven and then covered up, the proof is not in the fragments of the bullets, but in the fragmants of Kennedy' skull. some found in the bushes alongside the spot where he was shot.

I noticed that you clicked other, who do you think did it?

[loosecannon]

Damn ... I bet he was hoping no one was going to figure that out.:laugh2:

they did.

[Gaffer]

Are you on crack? Why has the Warren commission report never been released?

You think you have access to definitive data? Show me the Warren Co. report.

Then there was Bobby.........

(anybody who doesn't believe the MIC hit the bros is head deep in desert sand)

Everything was sealed and classified and not to be open for 50 years. Then they revamped it and added another 50 years. Somebody doesn't want the whole truth out there.

[Doniston]

There is absolutely NO evidence/proof of a second shooter that isn't contrived BS. a 2" by 3" oval peice of kennedy's skull was found beside the road, that came from the back of his head. That bullet came from the front. thus there was a second shooter. futher, an intern drew a picture of the back of kennedy's head, showing the gapping hole. those drawings (which I saw on TV right after the shooting) have stangely disappeared.

[Doniston]

I noticed that you clicked other, who do you think did it? I won't offer any proof of this, but I became quite involved in the situation after the fact, actually getting myself arrested in Dallas to find out whether Oswald could have been shot without a conspiracy by the Dallas Police. I learned it wasn't reasonably possible.

Thru my own investigations, I found ample evidence that it was engineered by Lady-bird Johnson's cronies. the real power behind the Johnson Presidency.

[nevadamedic]

a 2" by 3" oval peice of kennedy's skull was found beside the road, that came from the back of his head. That bullet came from the front. thus there was a second shooter. futher, an intern drew a picture of the back of kennedy's head, showing the gapping hole. those drawings (which I saw on TV right after the shooting) have stangely disappeared.

The whole thing reeks of a Government coverup.

[Gaffer]

I won't offer any prove of this, but I became quite involved in the situation after the fact, actually getting myself arrested in Dallas to find out whether Oswald could have bee shot without a conspiracy by the Dallas Police. I learned it wasn't reasonably possible.

Thru my own investigations, I found ample evidence that it was engineered by Lady-bird Johnson's cronies. the real power behind the Johnson Presidency.

Never heard about the ladybird cronies. But I do think Hoover was heavily involved. At least as far as the coverup went.

[nevadamedic]

I won't offer any prove of this, but I became quite involved in the situation after the fact, actually getting myself arrested in Dallas to find out whether Oswald could have bee shot without a conspiracy by the Dallas Police. I learned it wasn't reasonably possible.

Thru my own investigations, I found ample evidence that it was engineered by Lady-bird Johnson's cronies. the real power behind the Johnson Presidency.

If you cant prove it then your full of it.

[Gunny]

Are you on crack? Why has the Warren commission report never been released?

You think you have access to definitive data? Show me the Warren Co. report.

Then there was Bobby.........

(anybody who doesn't believe the MIC hit the bros is head deep in desert sand)

The decision of the Warren Commission has been released for over 30 years. The facts and evidence presented support the lone gunman theory far better than any other theories.

Some people just cannot accept the fact that it could be so simple and so easy. If there isn't some full-blown conspiracy, it couldn't have happened. The obvious however is ... well ... obvious.

I'm just stating my opinion and the facts support it. I have given up LONG ago trying to change anyone's mind on the topic. People are going to believe what they want, and the facts and evidence be damned.

Robert Kennedy's assassination was an unrelated event, and there is NO real evidence to support otherwise.

it appears where being a Kennedy is concerned, only the dullest knife in the drawer is adept at saving his own skin. Says a lot that he isn't even worth an assassin's bullet.

[Doniston]

The whole thing reeks of a Government coverup. Yup, it was, and is destined to continue so.

[Doniston]

If you cant prove it then your full of it. Parts I can prove. I just said I "wouldn't". It is pointless to do so now. But is you want to do the research you will find part of it in the record.

(I can't PROVE that men landed on the Moon, but there is much evidence to support it.) Does that make me "full of it" too???

[theHawk]

a 2" by 3" oval peice of kennedy's skull was found beside the road, that came from the back of his head. That bullet came from the front. thus there was a second shooter. futher, an intern drew a picture of the back of kennedy's head, showing the gapping hole. those drawings (which I saw on TV right after the shooting) have stangely disappeared.

Where are you getting this information that it came from the back of the head? The first bullet went through upper back, neck, and out of his throat. The other bullet went in through the back of the head and blew out a large chunk of his skull above his right ear. If he had been shot in the front, the bullet would had to of gone either through the windshield or off from the side where there were many witnesses. And several witnesses near the depository heard all three shots come from above.

[JohnDoe]

Never heard about the ladybird cronies. But I do think Hoover was heavily involved. At least as far as the coverup went.
gosh, if I could rep ya twice in a row, this would have gotten one too!

I think Hoover was involved also, and supposedly he and some others, were all gathered in Dallas that day and the evening beforehand....is this true? or did you read this also?

[JohnDoe]

Where are you getting this information that it came from the back of the head? The first bullet went through upper back, neck, and out of his throat. The other bullet went in through the back of the head and blew out a large chunk of his skull above his right ear. If he had been shot in the front, the bullet would had to of gone either through the windshield or off from the side where there were many witnesses. And several witnesses near the depository heard all three shots come from above.There are 5 consecutive shots on a tape from a policeman's motorcycle mic/hand radio....saw that on one of the Discovery channel specials on this....

also....exit wounds are ALWAYS larger than entrance wounds, from my understanding....but I am not 100% certain?

[Gaffer]

There are 5 consecutive shots on a tape from a policeman's motorcycle mic/hand radio....saw that on one of the Discovery channel specials on this....

also....exit wounds are ALWAYS larger than entrance wounds, from my understanding....but I am not 100% certain?

Yes the exit wound is always larger. Because the bullet either tumbles or fragments. There would not be a three inch entry wound in the back of his head. That would only be an exit wound. An entry wound would only be the size of the bullet.

As for Hoover being in Dallas I haven't heard much on that. If he was there the day before that would only be normal as he was head of the FBI. But he hated kennedy and thought the man was a disgrace to the presidency. The man had more shit on more people in washington than carter has pills. There's no way he didn't at least know something was coming down.

[Gunny]

There are 5 consecutive shots on a tape from a policeman's motorcycle mic/hand radio....saw that on one of the Discovery channel specials on this....

also....exit wounds are ALWAYS larger than entrance wounds, from my understanding....but I am not 100% certain?

Exit wounds are not larger using full metal jacket ammo.

There are not 5 consecutive shots. The sounds have not been identified conclusively as shots.

Why is it you people willing to believe coverup will ignore conclusive evidence in favor of inconclusive evidence? I don't get it.

[Gaffer]

Exit wounds are not larger using full metal jacket ammo.

There are not 5 consecutive shots. The sounds have not been identified conclusively as shots.

Why is it you people willing to believe coverup will ignore conclusive evidence in favor of inconclusive evidence? I don't get it.

Gunny I think this is the only area you and I ever disagreed on. I do believe there was a cover up. Who and why will probably not come out till long after we are gone.

You know as well as I do that a full metal jacket round is not going to put a three inch hole in the back of someones head on entering. Blood splatter and bone fragments would not come out from the bullet going in. They come out at the exit point. And the size of the hole will depend on how much tumbling the bullet did after entering.

I believe there was more than one shooter and that the government was involved in a cover up or were completely inept at carrying out the investigation and tried to cover that up. Which would make a lot more sense as conspiracies go.

[theHawk]

There are 5 consecutive shots on a tape from a policeman's motorcycle mic/hand radio....saw that on one of the Discovery channel specials on this....

also....exit wounds are ALWAYS larger than entrance wounds, from my understanding....but I am not 100% certain?

You're not addressing what I said about the exit wound. The entrance was in the BACK of the skull, not the front. Why do you people keep claiming there was a huge exit wound in the back of his head?

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl3.htm

Where is anyone's evidence to the contrary??

[Gunny]

Gunny I think this is the only area you and I ever disagreed on. I do believe there was a cover up. Who and why will probably not come out till long after we are gone.

You know as well as I do that a full metal jacket round is not going to put a three inch hole in the back of someones head on entering. Blood splatter and bone fragments would not come out from the bullet going in. They come out at the exit point. And the size of the hole will depend on how much tumbling the bullet did after entering.

I believe there was more than one shooter and that the government was involved in a cover up or were completely inept at carrying out the investigation and tried to cover that up. Which would make a lot more sense as conspiracies go.

I don't believe there was a coverup. If that bullet hit the base of the skull glancing downward, as the Zapruder film supports, it most certainly would not make a clean entry and easily could make a 3 or more inch hole. Oswald was shooting down on a moving target which easily explains a not so clean entry wound.

And once Oswald's shooting was broken down, I was less than impressed with his marksmanship. It's not the miracle shooting it's being made out to be. Matter of fact, he was pretty sloppy, in my professional opinion. At 200+ feet with a scope he should have blown Kennedy's head clean off.

[theHawk]

I don't believe there was a coverup. If that bullet hit the base of the skull glancing downward, as the Zapruder film supports, it most certainly would not make a clean entry and easily could make a 3 or more inch hole. Oswald was shooting down on a moving target which easily explains a not so clean entry wound.

And once Oswald's shooting was broken down, I was less than impressed with his marksmanship. It's not the miracle shooting it's being made out to be. Matter of fact, he was pretty sloppy, in my professional opinion. At 200+ feet with a scope he should have blown Kennedy's head clean off.

Yes, the Zapruder film clearly shows the kill shot blowing a spray of blood out forward. There is no doubt he was shot from the back of the head.

I mean we all watched a bunch of jihadists highjackers crash planes into buildings on live TV but people still don't want to believe it was that simple.

Oswald was a flamming marxist socialist pig, who renounced his citizenship at one point to go live in the USSR. During his time in the Marines he was on outcast and always getting into trouble, and he was mentally unstable since his youth. Lets not forget he attempted to kill General Edwin Walker who was an avid anti-communist just weeks before the JFK assassination, and he did kill a police officer right after killing JFK.
Its strange that despite all the evidence and motive a lot of people (most seem to be the liberal types) can't accept that this American hating left wing nut simply sat up in that room and shot up the President. A President that had the balls to stand up against the communists and Cuba.

[nevadamedic]

There is absolutely NO evidence/proof of a second shooter that isn't contrived BS.

That we know of. The whole situation was covered up. I guarantee President Johnson was The Architect behind it.

[nevadamedic]

Everything was sealed and classified and not to be open for 50 years. Then they revamped it and added another 50 years. Somebody doesn't want the whole truth out there.

Do you know how many people had to be involved? The Secret Service, The Military, The Vice President(The Architect), The CIA and many many more Orginizations.

[nevadamedic]

I won't offer any proof of this, but I became quite involved in the situation after the fact, actually getting myself arrested in Dallas to find out whether Oswald could have been shot without a conspiracy by the Dallas Police. I learned it wasn't reasonably possible.

Thru my own investigations, I found ample evidence that it was engineered by Lady-bird Johnson's cronies. the real power behind the Johnson Presidency.

I am going to regret saying this but you are part right. Weather or not you were in Dallas that's doubtable. I have watched every documentary on this and read almost every book and there is no way it was Oswald.

Also The Dallas police had to be involved. There is no way Jack Ruby couldn't have gotten that close to Oswald with a gun with all the police and security that was there. Thats why he was moved in a police garage.

[nevadamedic]

Are you on crack? Why has the Warren commission report never been released?

You think you have access to definitive data? Show me the Warren Co. report.

Then there was Bobby.........

(anybody who doesn't believe the MIC hit the bros is head deep in desert sand)

MIC?

[nevadamedic]

The decision of the Warren Commission has been released for over 30 years. The facts and evidence presented support the lone gunman theory far better than any other theories.

Some people just cannot accept the fact that it could be so simple and so easy. If there isn't some full-blown conspiracy, it couldn't have happened. The obvious however is ... well ... obvious.

I'm just stating my opinion and the facts support it. I have given up LONG ago trying to change anyone's mind on the topic. People are going to believe what they want, and the facts and evidence be damned.

Robert Kennedy's assassination was an unrelated event, and there is NO real evidence to support otherwise.

it appears where being a Kennedy is concerned, only the dullest knife in the drawer is adept at saving his own skin. Says a lot that he isn't even worth an assassin's bullet.

There is evidence on two shooters on Bobby Kennedy.

[nevadamedic]

gosh, if I could rep ya twice in a row, this would have gotten one too!

I think Hoover was involved also, and supposedly he and some others, were all gathered in Dallas that day and the evening beforehand....is this true? or did you read this also?

All of the important Government People were in Dallas that day. They knew that JFK was not going home in anything but a box. They were there to Swear in the new President and show their support.

[Gunny]

That we know of. The whole situation was covered up. I guarantee President Johnson was The Architect behind it.

At least you're consistent in accepting unsubstantiated conspiracy theories in lieu of actualt fact.

You can't guarantee shit. You have NO evidence.

[nevadamedic]

The decision of the Warren Commission has been released for over 30 years. The facts and evidence presented support the lone gunman theory far better than any other theories.

Some people just cannot accept the fact that it could be so simple and so easy. If there isn't some full-blown conspiracy, it couldn't have happened. The obvious however is ... well ... obvious.

I'm just stating my opinion and the facts support it. I have given up LONG ago trying to change anyone's mind on the topic. People are going to believe what they want, and the facts and evidence be damned.

Robert Kennedy's assassination was an unrelated event, and there is NO real evidence to support otherwise.

it appears where being a Kennedy is concerned, only the dullest knife in the drawer is adept at saving his own skin. Says a lot that he isn't even worth an assassin's bullet.

Ok, so then why would Oswald kille Kennedy? Also why would Ruby kill Oswald having to get past next to impossible police blockades.

[Gunny]

Do you know how many people had to be involved? The Secret Service, The Military, The Vice President(The Architect), The CIA and many many more Orginizations.

No shit. Now go figure just how you are going to keep that many people from at least one or two running their mouthes to the media, or written a book later.

It isn't going to happen. Not in THIS country.

[nevadamedic]

Yes, the Zapruder film clearly shows the kill shot blowing a spray of blood out forward. There is no doubt he was shot from the back of the head.

I mean we all watched a bunch of jihadists highjackers crash planes into buildings on live TV but people still don't want to believe it was that simple.

Oswald was a flamming marxist socialist pig, who renounced his citizenship at one point to go live in the USSR. During his time in the Marines he was on outcast and always getting into trouble, and he was mentally unstable since his youth. Lets not forget he attempted to kill General Edwin Walker who was an avid anti-communist just weeks before the JFK assassination, and he did kill a police officer right after killing JFK.
Its strange that despite all the evidence and motive a lot of people (most seem to be the liberal types) can't accept that this American hating left wing nut simply sat up in that room and shot up the President. A President that had the balls to stand up against the communists and Cuba.

I believe it was that simple. The only one who doesn't is Rosie O'Donnell.

[nevadamedic]

At least you're consistent in accepting unsubstantiated conspiracy theories in lieu of actualt fact.

You can't guarantee shit. You have NO evidence.

There is plenty of evidence. Johnson hated the Kennedy's with a passion. He knew the election between Kennedy and Himself was the last chanc he would get. Several of Johnsons Aid's had said shortly before the Assisanation that he came storming into his office and said that Kennedy is going to get what he deserves.

Now lets look at something else. It's amazing the VP was there when he wasn't scheduled to be. He knew that he was going to be sworn in as President.

Now there is the convertable that Kennedy was riding in, it was against policy to have a President ride in a Convertable, but it was under Johnsons orders. Also Secret Service Agents were cut beforethe event and told they wern't needed and along with Military personnel assigned to protect the President were cut by the Vice President.

[nevadamedic]

No shit. Now go figure just how you are going to keep that many people from at least one or two running their mouthes to the media, or written a book later.

It isn't going to happen. Not in THIS country.

The threat of death, exactly what happened to oswald. Besides our Government back then under Hoover would threaten the lives of the people's families who were involved. You have to remember that man was crooked and he also hated the Kennededys.

[Gunny]

There is plenty of evidence. Johnson hated the Kennedy's with a passion. He knew the election between Kennedy and Himself was the last chanc he would get. Several of Johnsons Aid's had said shortly before the Assisanation that he came storming into his office and said that Kennedy is going to get what he deserves.

Now lets look at something else. It's amazing the VP was there when he wasn't scheduled to be. He knew that he was going to be sworn in as President.

Now there is the convertable that Kennedy was riding in, it was against policy to have a President ride in a Convertable, but it was under Johnsons orders. Also Secret Service Agents were cut beforethe event and told they wern't needed and along with Military personnel assigned to protect the President were cut by the Vice President.

None of that is evidence of anything, and the covertible was ordered by Johnson under Kennedy's instructions. Common knowledge.

The secret service agensts were there, and are on film, and the military never provides security for the President on parade routes.

[Gunny]

The threat of death, exactly what happened to oswald. Besides our Government back then under Hoover would threaten the lives of the people's families who were involved. You have to remember that man was crooked and he also hated the Kennededys.

Weak. You could never pull off a conspiracy that big that involved that many people in this country. Even had a threat of death been effective THEN, it wouldn't have lasted long enough for every one of the number of people you are suggesting to die.

[red states rule]

Yes, the Zapruder film clearly shows the kill shot blowing a spray of blood out forward. There is no doubt he was shot from the back of the head.

I mean we all watched a bunch of jihadists highjackers crash planes into buildings on live TV but people still don't want to believe it was that simple.

Oswald was a flamming marxist socialist pig, who renounced his citizenship at one point to go live in the USSR. During his time in the Marines he was on outcast and always getting into trouble, and he was mentally unstable since his youth. Lets not forget he attempted to kill General Edwin Walker who was an avid anti-communist just weeks before the JFK assassination, and he did kill a police officer right after killing JFK.
Its strange that despite all the evidence and motive a lot of people (most seem to be the liberal types) can't accept that this American hating left wing nut simply sat up in that room and shot up the President. A President that had the balls to stand up against the communists and Cuba.


I have always thought the Mafia killed JFK. They helped him get elected, then double crossed them with making Bobby AG

When you make a deal with those guys, you better keep your word

[theHawk]

I have always thought the Mafia killed JFK. They helped him get elected, then double crossed them with making Bobby AG

When you make a deal with those guys, you better keep your word


Oswald didn't have any known association with the Mafia. Just because the Mafia, Johnson, or anyone else disliked or even hated the President doesn't mean they had him killed. Every President is hated by alot of people, it doesn't make them all guilty if he is killed. All the evidence clearly shows Oswald was the killer. I'd say if anything it could of been the Soviets behind it, but even they wanted nothing to do with Oswald after they found out what a loon he was. Oswald was a deranged liberal who hated his own country so when he heard about the President's route which was made public days in advance, he set up that sniper nest and it was easy pickings from there.

[red states rule]

Oswald didn't have any known association with the Mafia. Just because the Mafia, Johnson, or anyone else disliked or even hated the President doesn't mean they had him killed. Every President is hated by alot of people, it doesn't make them all guilty if he is killed. All the evidence clearly shows Oswald was the killer. I'd say if anything it could of been the Soviets behind it, but even they wanted nothing to do with Oswald after they found out what a loon he was. Oswald was a deranged liberal who hated his own country so when he heard about the President's route which was made public days in advance, he set up that sniper nest and it was easy pickings from there.

We will never know the full details of the murder of Pres Kennedy. I still lean toward the Mafis killing him, and Oswald was the fall guy

[theHawk]

We will never know the full details of the murder of Pres Kennedy. I still lean toward the Mafis killing him, and Oswald was the fall guy

I'm curious to know why you think that at all. Some people say its because of Jack Ruby killing Oswald. But the truth is Jack Ruby was a Jewish business owner and he was not in the Mafia. He may have known a few people with such connections but that doesn't mean he was in it himself. Even on his death bed Jack Ruby said that no one else was behind it. He just did it thinking it would be better for the country and he never thought he'd get a death sentence from it. I'm sure alot of people in the country at that time would of loved to kill Oswald had they been given the chance. Ruby was just the first to be in that position.

[red states rule]

I'm curious to know why you think that at all. Some people say its because of Jack Ruby killing Oswald. But the truth is Jack Ruby was a Jewish business owner and he was not in the Mafia. He may have known a few people with such connections but that doesn't mean he was in it himself. Even on his death bed Jack Ruby said that no one else was behind it. He just did it thinking it would be better for the country and he never thought he'd get a death sentence from it. I'm sure alot of people in the country at that time would of loved to kill Oswald had they been given the chance. Ruby was just the first to be in that position.

It was a prgoam on the History Channel. They played wiretaps up mob guys talking about taking JFK out

Again, we will never really know what happened - I am saying what I saw and heard in the program

[theHawk]

It was a prgoam on the History Channel. They played wiretaps up mob guys talking about taking JFK out

Again, we will never really know what happened - I am saying what I saw and heard in the program

It doesn't matter if some other people were talking about taking JFK out. It doesn't change the fact that Oswald killed the President. There was no connection between him and the mafia. There didn't need to be either, he had his own motives. There is a mountain of motive there, more than anyone in the mafia could of given him. He was a derranged liberal through and through. He admired communists/socialists, and he hated America. Ironically he would of felt right at home with modern day libs.

[actsnoblemartin]

why was oswald killed?


I've always thought there was a second shooter.

[Mr. P]

With all the players that had motive I can't accept Lee Oswald did this all alone.

I am am NOT a conspiracy person by any stretch. Just look at the motives and facts. View the video in the "On JFK" thread.

Some things to consider...

Start with Motive.......

I admit I have no clue what Oswald's motive may have been but the following had plenty.

Castro...Cuban Missle Crissis, Bay of Pigs, several assassination attempts by the CIA, the ban on travel and trade to Cuba.

Mafia...Daddy ran scotch with the assistance of the Mafia, it made him a rich man. They did have a hand in JFKs election, through unions etc. JFK began a crackdown on the 'MOB" through his AG, Bobby (NOT good). The Casinos in Cuba were also a big lose for them.

Hoover....JFK and Bobby were in a war with Hoover to take back government control of the FBI.
J Edgar was a pissed and very POWERFUL man. Remember this, Bobby was killed before Hoover died.

Johnson....A shady politician with questionable links to the Mob.

The total Warren Commission report has not been released as it should have been, portions still remain sealed. Why?

So, I have a difficult time believing one lone loon just did it and then he was dropped in the basement of the police station a day later. There's so much more....

It just doesn't add up to being one lone loon for me.

And that's my 2 cents..

[red states rule]

why was oswald killed?

to keep him quiet

[red states rule]

With all the players that had motive I can't accept Lee Oswald did this all alone.

I am am NOT a conspiracy person by any stretch. Just look at the motives and facts. View the video in the "On JFK" thread.

Some things to consider...

Start with Motive.......

I admit I have no clue what Oswald's motive may have been but the following had plenty.

Castro...Cuban Missle Crissis, Bay of Pigs, several assassination attempts by the CIA, the ban on travel and trade to Cuba.

Mafia...Daddy ran scotch with the assistance of the Mafia, it made him a rich man. They did have a hand in JFKs election, through unions etc. JFK began a crackdown on the 'MOB" through his AG, Bobby (NOT good). The Casinos in Cuba were also a big lose for them.

Hoover....JFK and Bobby were in a war with Hoover to take back government control of the FBI.
J Edgar was a pissed and very POWERFUL man. Remember this, Bobby was killed before Hoover died.

Johnson....A shady politician with questionable links to the Mob.

The total Warren Commission report has not been released as it should have been, portions still remain sealed. Why?

So, I have a difficult time believing one lone loon just did it and then he was dropped in the basement of the police station a day later. There's so much more....

It just doesn't add up to being one lone loon for me.

And that's my 2 cents..

The mob did help him get elected, then he put Bobby in as AG. Bobby has giving the mob trouble, and then add to that the possible fling JFK had with the mistress of Sam Giancana - you have a good motive

[theHawk]

why was oswald killed?

Mainly because Jack Ruby thought he'd be viewed as a hero. He thought he'd get a reduced charge and reduced sentence.

[red states rule]

Mainly because Jack Ruby thought he'd be viewed as a hero. He thought he'd get a reduced charge and reduced sentence.

or he could talk about the possible mob ties to the murder of the US President

[emmett]

THAT is the 64 million dollar question. In essence it clearly says there was "something" "somebody" didn't want "eveybody" to know, right?

Proof pro quo of a conspiracy.

LHO DID fire the Carcano. The bullet hit the president and killed him. Other than that, I don't think anyone alive today will live to see anything otherwise actually proven.

[jackass]

Do you know how many people had to be involved? The Secret Service, The Military, The Vice President(The Architect), The CIA and many many more Orginizations.

Actually I think this is why most people believe that it wasnt a conspiracy, because there would be a need for too may people to know and SOMEONE would talk. I think you could do this with very few people actually knowing. Maybe just a handful of powerful people.
Think about it. Someone (lets just say the VP) wants the president dead. Who else would need to know? HLO. And maybe just 1 or 2 high ranking people positioned in Dallas. Here is the scene:
They setup LHO to kill the president. 2 high ranking FBI or CIA officials are on the scene to oversee the parade. (They are in on the assasination). The president is shot, they would use their power or command to steer the witenesses and local police. With people running around and the chaos afterwards they could easily mold the outcome.

[theHawk]

If you watch videos of the aftermath, you can see it was pure chaos at the Dallas police station when they were holding Oswald. They paraded him around right in front of media, they openly carried the rifle raised up in the air in a crowded hallway. They announced publically when they were going to transfer him to the county jail and into the Fed's hands. They were practically giving an open inventation for a public lynching.

I'm always much more inclined to believe in the utter incompetence and stupidity of government than I am in some grand conspiracy.