Brussels listened to Jafar, Abso and I

[jimnyc]

We discussed last week about freedom of speech, and whether or not that would allow someone to insult another person. In Islam, you can't. Of course here in America, we're free in most manners to tell someone that they are an asshole or worse.

This is today from Brussels:


Brussels, Belgium, wants everyone to be nice. And if not, it's going to cost you.

"Any form of insult is from now on [is] punishable, whether it be racist, homophobic or otherwise," Brussels Mayor Freddy Thielemans' spokesperson quoted him as saying, according to the Telegraph.

Fines will range between 75 and 250 euros for using offensive language or sexually harassing someone in public, officials said.

Mayor Thielemans said the new fines encourage officers to take action over offensive public behavior that previously went ignored because it was never prosecuted. Thielemans said police officers "had little incentive to take any action over such incidents."

In June, Middleborough, Mass., passed a measure that slaps people caught cursing in public with a $20 fine.

"It's mainly for aggressive behavior or verbal assault of someone who's a distance away from you," said Mimi Duphily, a 63-year-old resident. "It's really just about when it rises above what is acceptable behavior."

http://news.yahoo.com/brussels-plans-fine-offensive-language-150515394--abc-news-topstories.html

[cadet]

Well, that's a little bit more expensive then a swear jar... I guess that's one way to stop bad habits...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

We discussed last week about freedom of speech, and whether or not that would allow someone to insult another person. In Islam, you can't. Of course here in America, we're free in most manners to tell someone that they are an asshole or worse.

This is today from Brussels:



http://news.yahoo.com/brussels-plans-fine-offensive-language-150515394--abc-news-topstories.html


It will start with fines and end up with long prison sentences and beheadings! Attacking free speech always has a very sinister purpose no matter how soft it starts. When only state sanctioned freedom of exspression is allowed you have tyranny. One does not fall headfirst into a deep shithole and only get a little bit smelly! The longest journey starts with the first step be it large or small.--Tyr

[aboutime]

It will start with fines and end up with long prison sentences and beheadings! Attacking free speech always has a very sinister purpose no matter how soft it starts. When only state sanctioned freedom of exspression is allowed you have tyranny. One does not fall headfirst into a deep shithole and only get a little bit smelly! The longest journey starts with the first step be it large or small.--Tyr



jimnyc. Thankfully. We do not live THERE. We live HERE in the United States of America. Where we have a Constitution that GUARANTEE'S we have the Freedoms of Speech, and Religion, as stated by the First Amendment.

Granted. Bad language and swear words are disgusting. But....they are a result of how much we value our Freedoms to speak. Nothing more, nothing less.

And THIS IS NOT.......over THERE!

[DragonStryk72]

jimnyc. Thankfully. We do not live THERE. We live HERE in the United States of America. Where we have a Constitution that GUARANTEE'S we have the Freedoms of Speech, and Religion, as stated by the First Amendment.

Granted. Bad language and swear words are disgusting. But....they are a result of how much we value our Freedoms to speak. Nothing more, nothing less.

And THIS IS NOT.......over THERE!

Bet me. VA Beach, it is illegal to swear, period.

[aboutime]

Bet me. VA Beach, it is illegal to swear, period.



Really DragonStryk72. As a more than 30 year resident of Va. Beach area called Hampton Roads, Va. That's news to me?

[jafar00]

Looks to me like they just want people to be nicer to each other. That is a good thing.

[gabosaurus]

In Singapore, you can be caned and imprisoned for up for six months for littering. Harsher crimes such as public obscenities or drinking can get you flogged and thrown in prison indefinitely.
My cousin used to do business in Moscow. Over there, you need to hire an "agent" to help you do transactions. Because if anyone accuses you of doing anything at anytime, you can be arrested and jailed. And your defense can only be done in Russian, by someone familiar with Russian law.

We can't compare our way of life with others, because they hold their citizens to different standards than we do.

[jimnyc]

Looks to me like they just want people to be nicer to each other. That is a good thing.

When people are "nice" because they will be fined if they aren't, that's no longer "nice". Now it's people acting or shutting up, and losing what was their freedom to speak what was on their mind.

[jimnyc]

In Singapore, you can be caned and imprisoned for up for six months for littering. Harsher crimes such as public obscenities or drinking can get you flogged and thrown in prison indefinitely.
My cousin used to do business in Moscow. Over there, you need to hire an "agent" to help you do transactions. Because if anyone accuses you of doing anything at anytime, you can be arrested and jailed. And your defense can only be done in Russian, by someone familiar with Russian law.

We can't compare our way of life with others, because they hold their citizens to different standards than we do.

Bad is bad, good is good, punishment is punishment and violence is violence. Where you live won't change that. For example, caning someone for a petty crime. It's absurd to us here in the States. It's the norm to a lot of places because they were born into that kind of life and are conditioned to seeing it all the time. But that doesn't make it any more wrong or right. It's still a violent act one someone though for a petty crime.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

In Singapore, you can be caned and imprisoned for up for six months for littering. Harsher crimes such as public obscenities or drinking can get you flogged and thrown in prison indefinitely.
My cousin used to do business in Moscow. Over there, you need to hire an "agent" to help you do transactions. Because if anyone accuses you of doing anything at anytime, you can be arrested and jailed. And your defense can only be done in Russian, by someone familiar with Russian law.

We can't compare our way of life with others, because they hold their citizens to different standards than we do.

But we can and do hold that our freedoms , our standards are right. However you libs disagree with that and most often attempt to subvert it as well. Why do you cheerlead for the lack of freedoms the rest of the world suffers under? Does it make you feel superior and enlightened to be so anti-american?-Tyr

[jimnyc]

Bet me. VA Beach, it is illegal to swear, period.

And I believe it's a revenue making machine then, as it's an unconstitutional law that one should easily be able to fight in court. But you are correct about this bogus law existing.


Profanity charge dismissed against 'Boots' Riley in Norfolk

A General District Court judge Wednesday dismissed the public profanity charge against rapper Raymond “Boots” Riley after an attorney for the city argued that the law it was based on has been ruled unconstitutional.

Deputy City Attorney Jack Cloud told a judge that the state statute under which Riley was charged was declared unconstitutional by the Virginia Court of Appeals years ago, but that the state has not altered the statute.

“Why the state of Virginia hasn’t modified its statute I don’t know,” Cloud told the court, “but that occasionally happens, and unfortunately it then lies in the code as a kind of time bomb that unsuspecting police officers sometimes caption it.”

Cloud said the statute, which addresses profane swearing and being drunk in public, has been found unconstitutional as it relates to swearing.

“In essence, the reasoning of the Court of Appeals was that sort of ordinance or statute, where there is no fighting-

words element involved, is unconstitutional based on Supreme Court law,” Cloud said.

He also said the city has an ordinance that “essentially mirrors the state code section” and suggested that the city might amend its code.

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/07/profanity-charge-dismissed-against-boots-riley-norfolk

[aboutime]

And I believe it's a revenue making machine then, as it's an unconstitutional law that one should easily be able to fight in court. But you are correct about this bogus law existing.



http://hamptonroads.com/2008/07/profanity-charge-dismissed-against-boots-riley-norfolk



Norfolk, Portsmouth, Hampton, Newport News, Chesapeake......are NOT Virginia Beach. Same state. Different rules, and laws.

Yes. It is unconstitutional. Anything that threatens FREE SPEECH in any way is Unconstitutional. But...the rules, and laws may vary, which do not take away the freedom of speech, based on WHERE..as in Private property...like a club, or restaurant. Rules and Laws.

[Abbey Marie]

In Singapore, you can be caned and imprisoned for up for six months for littering. Harsher crimes such as public obscenities or drinking can get you flogged and thrown in prison indefinitely.
My cousin used to do business in Moscow. Over there, you need to hire an "agent" to help you do transactions. Because if anyone accuses you of doing anything at anytime, you can be arrested and jailed. And your defense can only be done in Russian, by someone familiar with Russian law.

We can't compare our way of life with others, because they hold their citizens to different standards than we do.

And that suppressed aggression is going to manifest in some other way. Whether it's drinking vodka into alcoholism, or beating your wife. At the extreme end, there's a reason inmates are so violent.

[Little-Acorn]

Looks to me like they just want people to be nicer to each other. That is a good thing.

No, they want government to take over, regulate speech and FORCE everybody to be nice to each other. Big difference... and it's NOT a good thing.

[Drummond]

I'm not at all surprised by this news. It follows the same trend already established in Britain. Here, we have 'Hatespeech' legislation providing for powers of arrest and detention in cases where publicly-expressed 'hatespeech' is witnessed.

It's been written into law, here, for a number of years.

I didn't find it difficult to locate a published example. Here's one examined by the Guardian (Leftie paper, though even so, they manage to be critical of the outcome of this example ....) ....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/28/tram-passenger-racist-abuse-arrested


A woman has been arrested for allegedly making racist comments to other passengers on a packed tram. The incident was filmed and posted online, prompting police to investigate.

The clip (which contains explicit comments some viewers may find offensive) had been viewed more than 124,000 times by Monday afternoon after being uploaded to YouTube on Sunday, and shows a woman with a child on her lap shouting abuse at passengers. The incident happened on the Croydon to Wimbledon tramlink. British Transport police said a 34-year-old woman had been arrested on suspicion of a racially aggravated public order offence.

The video footage, which sparked a Twitter trend with the hashtag #MyTramExperience on Monday, shows a woman complaining about ethnic minorities living in Britain.

One of the passengers on the tram asks her to mind her language, saying: "There are little kids on the tram." The woman points to the child on her lap and says "I've got a little kid here."

Several other passengers complain about her use of language and racist comments, but the tirade carries on for more than two minutes.

Police launched an investigation after the video was brought to their attention on YouTube and Twitter. A spokesman said: "At present it is not entirely clear which tram stops the offence took place between and when it occurred.

"As a result, we need anyone who witnessed this incident, or with any information that could assist our investigation, to contact us."

[Anyone reading from the link, note that I've omitted the bad language segment from my quote above.]

This following link is a follow-up piece to the same story. Partial quote follows ..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/29/my-tram-experience-croydon


I can imagine the woman leaving the tram complaining that she couldn't even talk about immigration in her own country.

Still, I was indignant about the incident until I saw the backlash on Twitter. Piers Morgan was calling for the woman to be deported, some asked for her to be locked up, while others said her child should be taken away. And those are only the printable responses.

I hate to write an article defending such a woman but I think calling for her to be arrested and then prosecuted is over the top. I don't think such behaviour is acceptable or have a problem with condemning it. My issue is that calling for the law to get involved is about the worst way to deal with such incidents. And there are several reasons for this.

First, the law has little impact. The Race Relations Act made it illegal for organisations to discriminate but you can count the number of successful prosecutions on your fingers. It works much better in tightly defined instances of outright discrimination rather than hate speech.

What actually changed attitudes against racism was a shift in popular culture pushed by brave people. The people who joined together in solidarity against skinheads (at Cable Street in the 30s and Southall in the 80s) changed attitudes. Rock Against Racism shifted popular attitudes. Love Music Hate Racism changed attitudes. The Anti-Nazi League did. But trying to push for better social attitudes through the law is a futile task. Popular condemnation and viral piss-takes work far better instead.

Second, you may argue she can already be prosecuted under the Public Order Act or a "breach of the peace" but the law is currently an overbearing ass. It allows the police to make an arrest if someone feels "insulted". The same laws allow them to detain political activists and make arbitrary arrests.

In short, the very law that some people are cheering here can easily be used against them. Do you really want to give police the willingness to arrest people simply for having an argument?

Third, laws that criminalise hate speech almost always backfire on minorities themselves. A few years ago British Muslim organisations campaigned vigorously for a law against religious hatred, hoping it would stop the BNP from using them as electoral fodder. Labour passed the law but it did little to stop the BNP. Instead, most of the people prosecuted under the law were – you guessed it – Muslims.

Jafar, my son ... I hope you're taking notes .... :mm:

[aboutime]

No, they want government to take over, regulate speech and FORCE everybody to be nice to each other. Big difference... and it's NOT a good thing.


The Democrats, and Obama ultimately desire, want, and hope to stop ALL SPEECH by anyone who doesn't agree with them, as well as anyone who appears to threaten them with ACTUAL, HONEST, TRUTHFUL FACTS.

It's actually a BACK-DOOR attempt to re-write the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, and it's not beyond Obama and Holder to create an EXECUTIVE ORDER to do just that. With the end result being. Anyone who dares to disagree, bad-mouth, or provide truth against Obama, or any Democrat. Will be Imprisoned, Fined, and NEVER HEARD FROM AGAIN.

And the Uneducated American Liberals who attended that FIASCO they called a convention. LOVE THE IDEA...until one of them learns how STUPID they are...In person.

[KitchenKitten99]

We can't compare our way of life with others, because they hold their citizens to different standards than we do.

Then why are the dems/liberals trying to make the US more like Europe?? Why can't we be our own country like we have in the past and not be like the ones that are falling into the financial abyss?

Oh, that's right... liberals believe that 'profit' and 'prosperity' are cuss words in their vocabularies. Unless you are say, John Kerry, Obammy, Bill Ayres, a Hollywood elitist, or the like. Then its' ok but you have to demonize anyone who does it without working in show-biz or being a politician.

[abso]

people there can no longer insult each other and hurt each other's feelings and make people feel bad about themselves by repeated insults, yeah, that is really a crisis to freedom, US army should intervene to protect the people's right to have bad manners and to insult as much as they want. ;)

as i said before my friend, you and I have very different understandings of the notion of freedom, you believe in absolute limitless freedom, while I believe in boundaries, maybe you can understand the necessity of those boundaries if it was your kid coming everyday crying from school because people insult him and make fun of the way he looks everyday and maybe that will make him grow up with various psychological problems which may lead him eventually to gunning down his whole class, but yet for you insults is freedom.

[jimnyc]

people there can no longer insult each other and hurt each other's feelings and make people feel bad about themselves by repeated insults, yeah, that is really a crisis to freedom, US army should intervene to protect the people's right to have bad manners and to insult as much as they want. ;)

as i said before my friend, you and I have very different understandings of the notion of freedom, you believe in absolute limitless freedom, while I believe in boundaries, maybe you can understand the necessity of those boundaries if it was your kid coming everyday crying from school because people insult him and make fun of the way he looks everyday and maybe that will make him grow up with various psychological problems which may lead him eventually to gunning down his whole class, but yet for you insults is freedom.

For better or worse, we have a long standing constitution that grants certain rights to all citizens. We don't allow a government to tell us what we can and cannot say. We can go tit for tat, and I can talk about someone blowing up entire buildings with a knapsack full of semtex as a result of his oppressive treatment, but there's little point. We all have people that will feel wronged and rebel as a result. But I would still rather live in a free world and not one where people tell me what I can say, when they say it, and also watch me for what I wear and all that other crap. And nowhere did I ever say people should have absolute limitless freedoms, so if you don't want to look dishonest, you might be better off addressing what I actually say instead of inventing what you things I never said. Everyone in the US knows that freedom of speech comes with responsibility and is hardly limitless, and I never said otherwise. We just believe in freedom for our citizens and expect them to accept these responsibilities.

Freedoms with responsibilities you answer for Vs. Lack of freedoms to prevent name calling.... I'll take the freedoms every single time.

And for the record, I can spend then next hundred years posting video after video after video after video of Muslims being rude to one another, and others, and foreigners and the list goes on. So you can say on paper that you don't insult one another, but in practice it falls apart at the seems quite often.

[jimnyc]

Something I just thought of from another thread, Abso. If insulting one another is something that shouldn't happen, and should be fined or against the law, does this only apply to the person in front of your face? Are you allowed to insult people that aren't there to defend themselves? The guy down the road? The guy in another state? The guy in another country? Do 'those in charge' stop "insulters" equally? Or does this "no insulting" rule stop when it comes to insulting Americans?

http://work949.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/muslims-burn-flag-21.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pGKRVo5WBbw/TI0HyKYO1WI/AAAAAAAAAGo/Rmm9db6TxPE/s1600/flag_burning.jpg

http://www.usdat.us/secretary/archives/US_flag_burning_2a.jpg

http://rashmanly.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/behead_those_who_insult_islam.jpg?w=450&h=676& amp;h=676

http://www.secularnewsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/muslim_thug_11.jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm not at all surprised by this news. It follows the same trend already established in Britain. Here, we have 'Hatespeech' legislation providing for powers of arrest and detention in cases where publicly-expressed 'hatespeech' is witnessed.

It's been written into law, here, for a number of years.

I didn't find it difficult to locate a published example. Here's one examined by the Guardian (Leftie paper, though even so, they manage to be critical of the outcome of this example ....) ....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/28/tram-passenger-racist-abuse-arrested



[Anyone reading from the link, note that I've omitted the bad language segment from my quote above.]

This following link is a follow-up piece to the same story. Partial quote follows ..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/29/my-tram-experience-croydon



Jafar, my son ... I hope you're taking notes .... :mm:

They are shooting for getting it to be the law here, just more PC censorship. The lib/leftist/dems want absolute control over the "peasants" because "slaves" have no need for free speech and slaves is what they plan on creating here. Too bad our founders created that damn Constitution that just keeps getting in their way!-Tyr

[aboutime]

Something I just thought of from another thread, Abso. If insulting one another is something that shouldn't happen, and should be fined or against the law, does this only apply to the person in front of your face? Are you allowed to insult people that aren't there to defend themselves? The guy down the road? The guy in another state? The guy in another country? Do 'those in charge' stop "insulters" equally? Or does this "no insulting" rule stop when it comes to insulting Americans?


jimnyc. If what you described above actually did become law. You might as well just SHUT THIS FORUM DOWN...right now.

The Dems, and Obama seem to be destined, and determined to do EXACTLY what you described above, while also taking away the INCLUSIVE aspects...to ALL, of the 1st Amendment.

If they even succeed in just a minor way. That foot in the door, so to speak. Will mean the end of FREE SPEECH for everyone who dares to express their thoughts, or opinions Freely.

We are losing our FREEDOMS as it is. Anyone who places Human Limits on Speech, is guilty of destroying everything.

[abso]

For better or worse, we have a long standing constitution that grants certain rights to all citizens. We don't allow a government to tell us what we can and cannot say. We can go tit for tat, and I can talk about someone blowing up entire buildings with a knapsack full of semtex as a result of his oppressive treatment, but there's little point. We all have people that will feel wronged and rebel as a result. But I would still rather live in a free world and not one where people tell me what I can say, when they say it, and also watch me for what I wear and all that other crap. And nowhere did I ever say people should have absolute limitless freedoms, so if you don't want to look dishonest, you might be better off addressing what I actually say instead of inventing what you things I never said. Everyone in the US knows that freedom of speech comes with responsibility and is hardly limitless, and I never said otherwise. We just believe in freedom for our citizens and expect them to accept these responsibilities.

Freedoms with responsibilities you answer for Vs. Lack of freedoms to prevent name calling.... I'll take the freedoms every single time.


where is the limit ???, if insults can cause psychological problems to humans and sometimes they produce a corrupted human being that end up killing innocent people, so how can we say that it's just his fault not the fault of the people who made a hell out of his life and insulted him every single day ???, how can you call insults a "Freedom", and again if insults is okay, then where is your limit ?



And for the record, I can spend then next hundred years posting video after video after video after video of Muslims being rude to one another, and others, and foreigners and the list goes on. So you can say on paper that you don't insult one another, but in practice it falls apart at the seems quite often.

although i don't like how most people here want to twist everything to be around Muslims, but i never said Muslims are perfect, and i never said that Muslims doesn't act rude to each others, we are all humans and we all have our flaws, all i have been always saying is that religions have nothing to do with the bad things we do as Christians or Muslims, because religion is a moral guidance that aim to make the human as perfect as he can be, but since we will never be perfect, we never abide by everything in our religions, that's all, and the insults that we throw at each other is a form of disobedience to our religion's teachings, as of course Christianity and Islam both forbid Insults.

[jimnyc]

where is the limit ???, if insults can cause psychological problems to humans and sometimes they produce a corrupted human being that end up killing innocent people, so how can we say that it's just his fault not the fault of the people who made a hell out of his life and insulted him every single day ???, how can you call insults a "Freedom", and again if insults is okay, then where is your limit ?

although i don't like how most people here want to twist everything to be around Muslims, but i never said Muslims are perfect, and i never said that Muslims doesn't act rude to each others, we are all humans and we all have our flaws, all i have been always saying is that religions have nothing to do with the bad things we do as Christians or Muslims, because religion is a moral guidance that aim to make the human as perfect as he can be, but since we will never be perfect, we never abide by everything in our religions, that's all, and the insults that we throw at each other is a form of disobedience to our religion's teachings, as of course Christianity and Islam both forbid Insults.

Fortunately for us, our country isn't run under rules and guidelines based off of religion.

[abso]

Fortunately for us, our country isn't run under rules and guidelines based off of religion.

maybe you should concentrate more on what i write, and less on what you think i mean, what i said is that religion has nothing to do with bad deeds and that it forbids it, but i never said that states should forbid insults because religions says so !!!, i said it should be forbidden due to the psychological implications that it may lead to which eventually may cause the death of innocents, and i think the live of innocent people is more important than the freedom of insults which you value so much, but for you, i think the insults is more important than people's lives.

[jimnyc]

maybe you should concentrate more on what i write, and less on what you think i mean, what i said is that religion has nothing to do with bad deeds and that it forbids it, but i never said that states should forbid insults because religions says so !!!, i said it should be forbidden due to the psychological implications that it may lead to which eventually may cause the death of innocents, and i think the live of innocent people is more important than the freedom of insults which you value so much, but for you, i think the insults is more important than people's lives.

No, as an American, I believe our Constitution is worth fighting for and worth dying for. And I'm sure as fuck not going to let someone from another country tell me that I shouldn't have such constitutional rights because you don't agree with our 1st amendment. However you feel about the freedoms granted to you in Egypt, more power to you. You live there, so I'm glad you love the particular freedoms you are afforded. I love America and I love the freedoms that are granted to us via the Constitution. Read the text of it in the forum below set aside for constitutional issues. Our Constitution is all about freedoms for Americans, it's one of the most awesome pieces of paper you will ever read, written by some of the most intelligent people to walk our planet.

I've read the Egyptian Constitution, or at least the temporary one. It more about granting powers to the government and less about freedoms for the citizens. Maybe I'm looking into something that people don't care about as much over there as we do here - ensuring the rights of the people from government tyranny. The Egyptian Constitution seems like it will go towards guaranteeing the government being dictators to the people in various ways.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

No, as an American, I believe our Constitution is worth fighting for and worth dying for. And I'm sure as fuck not going to let someone from another country tell me that I shouldn't have such constitutional rights because you don't agree with our 1st amendment. However you feel about the freedoms granted to you in Egypt, more power to you. You live there, so I'm glad you love the particular freedoms you are afforded. I love America and I love the freedoms that are granted to us via the Constitution. Read the text of it in the forum below set aside for constitutional issues. Our Constitution is all about freedoms for Americans, it's one of the most awesome pieces of paper you will ever read, written by some of the most intelligent people to walk our planet.

I've read the Egyptian Constitution, or at least the temporary one. It more about granting powers to the government and less about freedoms for the citizens. Maybe I'm looking into something that people don't care about as much over there as we do here - ensuring the rights of the people from government tyranny. The Egyptian Constitution seems like it will go towards guaranteeing the government being dictators to the people in various ways.

The difference between the two constitutions put them in entirely different ballparks. Ours insures the citizen's rights while theirs insures the government's supreme authority. As far as human rights, justice and citizens protection they are lightyears apart IMHO.-Tyr

[abso]

No, as an American, I believe our Constitution is worth fighting for and worth dying for. And I'm sure as fuck not going to let someone from another country tell me that I shouldn't have such constitutional rights because you don't agree with our 1st amendment. However you feel about the freedoms granted to you in Egypt, more power to you. You live there, so I'm glad you love the particular freedoms you are afforded. I love America and I love the freedoms that are granted to us via the Constitution. Read the text of it in the forum below set aside for constitutional issues. Our Constitution is all about freedoms for Americans, it's one of the most awesome pieces of paper you will ever read, written by some of the most intelligent people to walk our planet.

I've read the Egyptian Constitution, or at least the temporary one. It more about granting powers to the government and less about freedoms for the citizens. Maybe I'm looking into something that people don't care about as much over there as we do here - ensuring the rights of the people from government tyranny. The Egyptian Constitution seems like it will go towards guaranteeing the government being dictators to the people in various ways.

what about Guantanamo Bay prison, what about spying on Americans, what about spying on anyone who lives in USA, what about detaining certain suspects without trial for years and some times for more than a decade, do you object to those actions which according to you constitution are illegal ?

[Drummond]

jimnyc. If what you described above actually did become law. You might as well just SHUT THIS FORUM DOWN...right now.

We are losing our FREEDOMS as it is. Anyone who places Human Limits on Speech, is guilty of destroying everything.

Funny you should say that ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/9179087/Internet-activity-to-be-monitored-under-new-laws.html


Under legislation expected in next month's Queen's Speech, internet companies will be instructed to install hardware enabling GCHQ – the Government's electronic "listening" agency – to examine "on demand" any phone call made, text message and email sent, and website accessed in "real time", The Sunday Times reported.

A previous attempt to introduce a similar law was abandoned by the former Labour government in 2006 in the face of fierce opposition.

However ministers believe it is essential that the police and security services have access to such communications data in order to tackle terrorism and protect the public.

Although GCHQ would not be able to access the content of such communications without a warrant, the legislation would enable it to trace people individuals or groups are in contact with, and how often and for how long they are in communication.

The Home Office confirmed that ministers were intending to legislate "as soon as parliamentary time allows".

I can see the day coming when our home-grown equivalents of sites such as this one might well be closed down. Or, if not closed, those running them will have to operate under strict imperatives that severely limit what people can publicly post.

Back in the Soviet era days, GCHQ used to have a commendable role .. that of listening in to Soviet communications in the hope of gleaning anything useful to our Intelligence services .. working for ours, but assisting yours too, in the US. These days, though, when they're not checking out terrorist activities ... well, judging by this, quite soon, their efforts will be trained instead on the British ... their own people ....

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Funny you should say that ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/9179087/Internet-activity-to-be-monitored-under-new-laws.html



I can see the day coming when our home-grown equivalents of sites such as this one might well be closed down. Or, if not closed, those running them will have to operate under strict imperatives that severely limit what people can publicly post.

Back in the Soviet era days, GCHQ used to have a commendable role .. that of listening in to Soviet communications in the hope of gleaning anything useful to our Intelligence services .. working for ours, but assisting yours too, in the US. These days, though, when they're not checking out terrorist activities ... well, judging by this, quite soon, their efforts will be trained instead on the British ... their own people ....

My friend, I've been wondering when it would come to that there. If that becomes a reality there and a revolution does not occur there rather shortly afterwords your country has no hope. It will be completely and utterly destroyed! It will be turned against us and that bolds ill for us both!!! Notice how fast things are moving? Maybe because they are not sure how much longer their traitor will be at the helm here steering us towards disaster!
Sad to say but if the Brits do not take to streets in mass when this nazism is foisted upon them then they will have no chance at reversing the insanity. -Tyr

[aboutime]

what about Guantanamo Bay prison, what about spying on Americans, what about spying on anyone who lives in USA, what about detaining certain suspects without trial for years and some times for more than a decade, do you object to those actions which according to you constitution are illegal ?


abso. Know what's great about sites like this, and Our Constitution that provides the Rights, Freedoms, and Liberties to American citizens?

We have no need to explain anything, for any reason to anyone who is not eligible as an American citizen, about the rights, freedoms, and liberties we enjoy.
Consequently. IF YOU ARE NOT an American, living between our borders, or on our territories...as specified by law. Such as a terrorist, enemy, or threat to the security, or lives of Americans. YOU DO NOT HAVE the protections we as citizens enjoy.
Until someone becomes a citizen. Nobody has to explain anything to them. And, if they are a citizen who betrays, or performs a treasonous act against the United States, or her population. They are not granted the rights, freedoms, or liberties under the law because they have broken their honor, and citizenship requirements.

Those certain suspects you are talking about above. ARE JUST THAT. Suspects, or Prisoners who have sworn to kill, or destroy the United States, or U.S. Citizens. So...the constitution is not their UMBRELLA, or defense. GET IT?

[jafar00]

Abso is right. Freedom needs boundaries to guarantee the rights and freedoms of others. Such as a person's right to walk in the street without copping a load of abuse from someone who is rude and obnoxious.

[jimnyc]

what about Guantanamo Bay prison, what about spying on Americans, what about spying on anyone who lives in USA, what about detaining certain suspects without trial for years and some times for more than a decade, do you object to those actions which according to you constitution are illegal ?

The constitution applies to American citizens, so toss out Guantanamo off your list. The rest are in the Patriot Act, which congress and the President of the US approved. Unless the SC of the US were to somehow overrule it, as it stands it is constitutional.

[jimnyc]

Abso is right. Freedom needs boundaries to guarantee the rights and freedoms of others. Such as a person's right to walk in the street without copping a load of abuse from someone who is rude and obnoxious.

Then why does the COTUS go out of its way to do just that, guarantee freedoms to people, and sets boundaries. While Islamic Constitutions do more to protect governments and less about freedoms for the people.

But regardless of the crappy constitutions elsewhere, every freedom granted to Americans basically come with boundaries. We have rights, but they can be taken away. We have privileges, which also can be taken away. But not granting someone a freedom or privilege ever, is not freedom with boundaries, it's simply oppression.

[jafar00]

Then why does the COTUS go out of its way to do just that, guarantee freedoms to people, and sets boundaries. While Islamic Constitutions do more to protect governments and less about freedoms for the people.

But regardless of the crappy constitutions elsewhere, every freedom granted to Americans basically come with boundaries. We have rights, but they can be taken away. We have privileges, which also can be taken away. But not granting someone a freedom or privilege ever, is not freedom with boundaries, it's simply oppression.

This is why it is much more pleasant to live in Islamic societies. I have had people who bumped into me offer to sit in a cafe with me a drink tea as an apology before in Egypt.

Freedom can be abused btw. Some abuses of freedom mean that some become victims.

[jimnyc]

This is why it is much more pleasant to live in Islamic societies. I have had people who bumped into me offer to sit in a cafe with me a drink tea as an apology before in Egypt.

Freedom can be abused btw. Some abuses of freedom mean that some become victims.

I've seen some counties like that still in Georgia, and in Florida and a few places in South Carolina. You won't find that type of courtesy to one another in NY. It's doubtful that you'll find it in Saudi Arabia either. I imagine people are different in all areas of the world. So be it. I prefer an environment made by the people, based on a lot of factors. These factors for whatever reason vary depending on what part of the country you go to. But people all act differently all over. Everyone is free to be who they want to be, and others respond in kind I suppose. If you think Islamic societies are more pleasant, so be it. I'm actually happy that you're happy. "Much more pleasant" will be different to each person you ask. But it's awesome to know that you can travel the States and see so much difference, because we're all free to live out our dreams and you see so many different walks of life. I suppose it would be semi pleasant if we were all forced to be nice to one another too!

[abso]

Something I just thought of from another thread, Abso. If insulting one another is something that shouldn't happen, and should be fined or against the law, does this only apply to the person in front of your face? Are you allowed to insult people that aren't there to defend themselves? The guy down the road? The guy in another state? The guy in another country? Do 'those in charge' stop "insulters" equally? Or does this "no insulting" rule stop when it comes to insulting Americans?


i have already told you that the way i judge people has nothing to do with their nationality, my rule is simple, who i am is about how i was raised, but how i treat you is about how you were raised, that's all, your nationality, religion, sex and color makes no difference to me, you treat me with respect, i will treat you with even greater respect.

so an insult to Americans is something that i also disagree with, i only have a disagreement with your government but not it's people, i can never hate someone that i have never met or talked to, i DON'T do hatred, don't like it and never will, and this much you should already know from more than 2 years of debating with me, to put it simply, i am not an evil person.

if someone wrote "Americans are Pigs", i would object to that, that is not acceptable by my standards, but yet, there should be someone who complains, so if someone writes something like that, and an american gets offended and filed a law suit against him, i think he should pay a fine for this insult.

i am against all forms of insults, and you already know that, and you will never see me insulting a whole sect or a whole country for the faults of a few, and I DON'T have double standards, i judge people and situations equally.

my thought is very simple, if someone's parents couldn't raise him to be a respectful human being who doesn't go around insulting people and inciting hatred, then the authorities should be able to teach him those manners, even if it was by paying fines, a crime is not just about physical damage, psychological damage is important too, and if physical damage is faced with jail, then at least psychological damage should be faced with fines and if repeated maybe week or two in jail to teach people the right manners.

[jafar00]

I've seen some counties like that still in Georgia, and in Florida and a few places in South Carolina. You won't find that type of courtesy to one another in NY. It's doubtful that you'll find it in Saudi Arabia either. I imagine people are different in all areas of the world. So be it. I prefer an environment made by the people, based on a lot of factors. These factors for whatever reason vary depending on what part of the country you go to. But people all act differently all over. Everyone is free to be who they want to be, and others respond in kind I suppose. If you think Islamic societies are more pleasant, so be it. I'm actually happy that you're happy. "Much more pleasant" will be different to each person you ask. But it's awesome to know that you can travel the States and see so much difference, because we're all free to live out our dreams and you see so many different walks of life. I suppose it would be semi pleasant if we were all forced to be nice to one another too!

It's ingrained into Arab and Islamic culture. Courtesy towards others and especially inviting a stranger into your home to enjoy your hospitality is something Arabs live for. I know in Egypt that you must insist several times when you want to leave because the host will usually refuse to let you go and pour you another drink/give you more food or start a new conversation in order to get you to stay a bit longer except in that situation you as a guest should find another way to insist it is time to leave without offending the host. The host also should never indicate that they would like you to go by looking at the clock or something. It's actually quite complicated etiquette :)

[tailfins]

Looks to me like they just want people to be nicer to each other. That is a good thing.

It doesn't make people nice; it makes them sneaky. As a long time creature of the corporate environment, speech is TIGHTLY controlled. The control is so tight that even perceived meanings get stealth penalties. The safest way to proceed is not to fraternize with others in a corporate setting, especially women. Some of the "glass ceiling" effect, assuming there is one is a product of the risk of a sexual harassment accusation.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

This is why it is much more pleasant to live in Islamic societies.
Sure if you are muslim it is , otherwise you are subject to being murdered for the slightest offense to Islam!-Tyr

I have had people who bumped into me offer to sit in a cafe with me a drink tea as an apology before in Egypt.
Sure if you are muslim, otherwise as an infidel they wouldnt invite you to anything except maybe a stoning!-Tyr

Freedom can be abused btw.
Sure if you are muslim it is, abused by command from the Koran!-Tyr

Some abuses of freedom mean that some become victims.
Sure if you are muslim, it means ALL infidels are already victims just waiting to be punished!-Tyr

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And when muslims stone to death other muslims without a trial, simply on the word of an accuser, how pleasant is it then?-Tyr

[jimnyc]

i have already told you that the way i judge people has nothing to do with their nationality, my rule is simple, who i am is about how i was raised, but how i treat you is about how you were raised, that's all, your nationality, religion, sex and color makes no difference to me, you treat me with respect, i will treat you with even greater respect.

so an insult to Americans is something that i also disagree with, i only have a disagreement with your government but not it's people, i can never hate someone that i have never met or talked to, i DON'T do hatred, don't like it and never will, and this much you should already know from more than 2 years of debating with me, to put it simply, i am not an evil person.

if someone wrote "Americans are Pigs", i would object to that, that is not acceptable by my standards, but yet, there should be someone who complains, so if someone writes something like that, and an american gets offended and filed a law suit against him, i think he should pay a fine for this insult.

i am against all forms of insults, and you already know that, and you will never see me insulting a whole sect or a whole country for the faults of a few, and I DON'T have double standards, i judge people and situations equally.

my thought is very simple, if someone's parents couldn't raise him to be a respectful human being who doesn't go around insulting people and inciting hatred, then the authorities should be able to teach him those manners, even if it was by paying fines, a crime is not just about physical damage, psychological damage is important too, and if physical damage is faced with jail, then at least psychological damage should be faced with fines and if repeated maybe week or two in jail to teach people the right manners.

You could have said you disagreed with them and I would have believed you! LOL But I'm glad you wrote that much, and appreciate it. I always said many times before that I truly believed you were a peaceful person but we never really discussed about insults in real life. I have no doubt at all about what you write. Good for you. :beer:

[jimnyc]

It's ingrained into Arab and Islamic culture. Courtesy towards others and especially inviting a stranger into your home to enjoy your hospitality is something Arabs live for. I know in Egypt that you must insist several times when you want to leave because the host will usually refuse to let you go and pour you another drink/give you more food or start a new conversation in order to get you to stay a bit longer except in that situation you as a guest should find another way to insist it is time to leave without offending the host. The host also should never indicate that they would like you to go by looking at the clock or something. It's actually quite complicated etiquette :)

You just described many Italian Americans. They won't let you leave without a lengthy discussion and eating food. If you don't, you have just insulted them. And my Muslim friends are somewhat like what you describe. Overly friendly to an extent. Mostly like you described.

When I lived in Virginia, the hospitality there was second to none. I felt uncomfortable actually, as I didn't want to be that way in return to total strangers.

There is bad and good all over I suppose.

[tailfins]

You won't find that type of courtesy to one another in NY.!

I beg to differ. The Bronx is one of the friendliest places I have visited. Furthermore, there are plenty of helpful, friendly people in Manhattan once you get them away from the politics of people in their office. If you want to talk about mean, selfish, rude and even violent, let's talk about Miami-Fort Lauderdale excluding Cuban places such as Hialeah and Calle Ocho.

[jimnyc]

I beg to differ. The Bronx is one of the friendliest places I have visited. Furthermore, there are plenty of helpful, friendly people in Manhattan once you get them away from the politics of people in their office. If you want to talk about mean, selfish, rude and even violent, let's talk about Miami-Fort Lauderdale excluding Cuban places such as Hialeah and Calle Ocho.

I was referring to Jafar's comment about a stranger inviting him into a cafe and buying him a drink and chatting with him, as an apology of sorts for bumping into him. I know there are plenty of friendly places in Manhattan and in the Bronx, contrary to what TV tells Americans - but I don't think you'll find scenarios as such happening in the Bronx. Unless it's old folks. My wife's grandmother lived near Enstein Hospital and lived amongst all elderly people and all Italian. I can see them perhaps doing so, but it's not something you would see everyday.

[tailfins]

I was referring to Jafar's comment about a stranger inviting him into a cafe and buying him a drink and chatting with him, as an apology of sorts for bumping into him. I know there are plenty of friendly places in Manhattan and in the Bronx, contrary to what TV tells Americans - but I don't think you'll find scenarios as such happening in the Bronx. Unless it's old folks. My wife's grandmother lived near Enstein Hospital and lived amongst all elderly people and all Italian. I can see them perhaps doing so, but it's not something you would see everyday.

I think it's a bit weird to buy someone a drink for bumping into them. Communicating they didn't mean to is sufficient for me (after I confirm my wallet is still there). My idea of friendly is offering helpful information while your kids play in the park. One guy I met on the plane gave me a ride once to 34th Street just because it wouldn't be a big detour for him and it would save me the annoyance of the subway. This was done with no agenda other than being helpful.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think it's a bit weird to buy someone a drink for bumping into them. Communicating they didn't mean to is sufficient for me (after I confirm my wallet is still there). My idea of friendly is offering helpful information while your kids play in the park. One guy I met on the plane gave me a ride once to 34th Street just because it wouldn't be a big detour for him and it would save me the annoyance of the subway. This was done with no agenda other than being helpful.

Here in the South we do stuff like that often. My ex-wife and I back in the early 80's once picked up a sailor that was trying to hitchhike back to base on a Sunday afternoon. He was about 35 miles away from base and did not have much time to report in without being late. He was shipping out about 8 hours after getting there if memory serves me well. He didnt ask us but we decided to just drive him directly to his base . Young man about 19/20 years old, had gotten himself tangled up with a wild ,sexy gal he had met at a nightclub and when it came time to leave after spending the weekend with her her damn car wouldnt start. He said his goodbyes to her and walking from that farmhouse about 8 miles to the highway where we found him. I looked at my wife and said well do we? She nodded and we told him stop worrying we'll get you there on time. I did have to speed to do it and when dropping him off at the gate at his base he said he had just about 15/20 minutes to spare. He thanked us profusely and was happy not to be reporting in late! That was over thirty years ago, I was about 27 years olf then. I sure did sympathise with his reason for being late, the wild time with the gal , his military service and that is why I decided to just drive him directly to the base as we were only going about 8 miles up the road when we encountered him. Can not remember his name but do remember he was from New Jersey.-Tyr

[abso]

You could have said you disagreed with them and I would have believed you! LOL But I'm glad you wrote that much, and appreciate it. I always said many times before that I truly believed you were a peaceful person but we never really discussed about insults in real life. I have no doubt at all about what you write. Good for you. :beer:

thanks, and sometimes when i am bored i tend to write long posts ;)

[jimnyc]

thanks, and sometimes when i am bored i tend to write long posts ;)

I tend to go on rants at times too, I suppose it depends on how passionate I am about the particular subject.

But I think you and Jafar have to understand that at times people here like myself might be negative about Islam in general, or point out negative statistics or say things you may feel is insulting, but people are speaking in general and not saying that either of you 2 are that way. But then yes, there will be others that will accuse you guys or say negative things directly to you. You can ignore their comments at that time and you can place members on ignore totally, just as they can do these things in return. I think the majority here are pleased to interact with you 2, and see opinions from a different angle and from a different country. There will be times we will say things "about Muslims", referring to the bad element, and it's liable to anger yourself or Jafar. There will be times that one of you guys will say something negative about America in general, or our government, and some of us will take it personally. We deal with it and move on. I think the majority of us have good intentions to speak, and we can all be a little guilty at times of wanting to make the other guy angry. It's similar to the liberals and conservatives fighting.

[jafar00]

You just described many Italian Americans. They won't let you leave without a lengthy discussion and eating food. If you don't, you have just insulted them. And my Muslim friends are somewhat like what you describe. Overly friendly to an extent. Mostly like you described.

When I lived in Virginia, the hospitality there was second to none. I felt uncomfortable actually, as I didn't want to be that way in return to total strangers.

There is bad and good all over I suppose.

I think it is in Mediterranean blood. Italians, Moroccans, Greeks, Libyans.. they are all famous for hospitality. I guess I should avoid Virginia too if my diet has any chance of success? :D


I think it's a bit weird to buy someone a drink for bumping into them. Communicating they didn't mean to is sufficient for me (after I confirm my wallet is still there). My idea of friendly is offering helpful information while your kids play in the park. One guy I met on the plane gave me a ride once to 34th Street just because it wouldn't be a big detour for him and it would save me the annoyance of the subway. This was done with no agenda other than being helpful.

Sure it's a bit weird. Maybe it had something to do with being foreign. Not so bad though. I have had some amazing conversations with complete strangers in cafes before.


I tend to go on rants at times too, I suppose it depends on how passionate I am about the particular subject.

But I think you and Jafar have to understand that at times people here like myself might be negative about Islam in general, or point out negative statistics or say things you may feel is insulting, but people are speaking in general and not saying that either of you 2 are that way. But then yes, there will be others that will accuse you guys or say negative things directly to you. You can ignore their comments at that time and you can place members on ignore totally, just as they can do these things in return. I think the majority here are pleased to interact with you 2, and see opinions from a different angle and from a different country. There will be times we will say things "about Muslims", referring to the bad element, and it's liable to anger yourself or Jafar. There will be times that one of you guys will say something negative about America in general, or our government, and some of us will take it personally. We deal with it and move on. I think the majority of us have good intentions to speak, and we can all be a little guilty at times of wanting to make the other guy angry. It's similar to the liberals and conservatives fighting.

I must admit I do get frustrated when some members repeat the same old lies about Islam over and over again. When they copy/paste from some hate site, then I spend an hour+ researching the Qur'aan and Hadiths to counter them, it can become draining.

[jimnyc]

I must admit I do get frustrated when some members repeat the same old lies about Islam over and over again. When they copy/paste from some hate site, then I spend an hour+ researching the Qur'aan and Hadiths to counter them, it can become draining.

Yep, debating in any form is draining, so long as one is doing legitimate research. Most people are going to be of the same opinion, before or after you spend an hour doing research and making a well thought out post. It's sometimes obvious who is "correct" based on cited facts and evidence, and many times not so obvious when debating opinions.

[Abbey Marie]

This is why it is much more pleasant to live in Islamic societies. I have had people who bumped into me offer to sit in a cafe with me a drink tea as an apology before in Egypt.

Freedom can be abused btw. Some abuses of freedom mean that some become victims.

Which brings up a question I've had for a long time: How is it that Arab men have so much time to sit around in a cafe? Don't you work? Whenever I see shots of the Middle East, etc., this is what men are doing in the middle of the day.

And then there's the corollary: why do we never see women in cafes, drinking tea and relaxing?

[Abbey Marie]

I was referring to Jafar's comment about a stranger inviting him into a cafe and buying him a drink and chatting with him, as an apology of sorts for bumping into him. I know there are plenty of friendly places in Manhattan and in the Bronx, contrary to what TV tells Americans - but I don't think you'll find scenarios as such happening in the Bronx. Unless it's old folks. My wife's grandmother lived near Enstein Hospital and lived amongst all elderly people and all Italian. I can see them perhaps doing so, but it's not something you would see everyday.


Born and raised in the Bronx, and I can tell you, we are not the types to talk to strangers, let alone invite them out for drinks. When I moved, I saw a big difference in how people acted in other places, and it took me a long time to be more open and friendly.

[jafar00]

Which brings up a question I've had for a long time: How is it that Arab men have so much time to sit around in a cafe? Don't you work? Whenever I see shots of the Middle East, etc., this is what men are doing in the middle of the day.

And then there's the corollary: why do we never see women in cafes, drinking tea and relaxing?

If you did go to the Middle East you would see lots of women in cafes too. Usually the more trendy ones though. :p

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Which brings up a question I've had for a long time: How is it that Arab men have so much time to sit around in a cafe? Don't you work? Whenever I see shots of the Middle East, etc., this is what men are doing in the middle of the day.

And then there's the corollary: why do we never see women in cafes, drinking tea and relaxing?
In most muslim countries they keep their "cattle" in pens(called homes) locked away from the world. Property must be well guarded over there, or else it will get raped and then it'll have to be stoned(but not the rapist)! Such is the paradise that their religion creates, nice aint it?--Tyr

[jimnyc]

If you did go to the Middle East you would see lots of women in cafes too. Usually the more trendy ones though. :p

And this would be the case in SOME countries, where in others it simply won't happen. I'm glad you happen to go go the countries that don't hold women back and forbid them from things that men are able to participate in. Anything a man is able to do, a woman should be able to as well. This isn't the case in all Islamic countries. I suppose it's the ones you don't visit, they need to do some catching up in the equality department.

[jafar00]

And this would be the case in SOME countries, where in others it simply won't happen. I'm glad you happen to go go the countries that don't hold women back and forbid them from things that men are able to participate in. Anything a man is able to do, a woman should be able to as well. This isn't the case in all Islamic countries. I suppose it's the ones you don't visit, they need to do some catching up in the equality department.

I've been all through the Middle East and apart from KSA where women are usually out with their husbands or family, you see women in cafes and restaurants with their friends much the same as you would in any western country.

[Abbey Marie]

I've been all through the Middle East and apart from KSA where women are usually out with their husbands or family, you see women in cafes and restaurants with their friends much the same as you would in any western country.

I'm not talking about women or anyone shopping, or stopping for tea in a cafe. I'm talking about men who appear to spend the day in cafes. Lounging for hours, it seems. How is that possible? Everyone needs to earn a living last time I checked. It shows up on travelogues all the time.

[aboutime]

[/B][/COLOR]
In most muslim countries they keep their "cattle" in pens(called homes) locked away from the world. Property must be well guarded over there, or else it will get raped and then it'll have to be stoned(but not the rapist)! Such is the paradise that their religion creates, nice aint it?--Tyr


Tyr. I know what you are trying to say. Personally. I did spend a short amount of time in Bahrain, The UAE, Dubai, and Saudi Arabia, and even three days in Somalia, during the First Gulf War, and shortly before I retired in the 90's.

In every case where we had the chance to mingle with the civilian population. What I noticed most about what you called Men sitting around, and about whether they have jobs was. It appeared they had no need to work due to the obvious, almost everywhere you looked...GOLD, and SILVER trade being the prime product of their financial way of life.
In Dubai. Long before it was built up to it's modern state of today. The city was divided by a river. One one side. Everything was traded, sold, or bought in Gold. While, on the other side. The same took place with Silver.
So. To answer your question. Purely from an American point of view. They do not appear to need work when they are so happy with their RICHES.

[Abbey Marie]

Tyr. I know what you are trying to say. Personally. I did spend a short amount of time in Bahrain, The UAE, Dubai, and Saudi Arabia, and even three days in Somalia, during the First Gulf War, and shortly before I retired in the 90's.

In every case where we had the chance to mingle with the civilian population. What I noticed most about what you called Men sitting around, and about whether they have jobs was. It appeared they had no need to work due to the obvious, almost everywhere you looked...GOLD, and SILVER trade being the prime product of their financial way of life.
In Dubai. Long before it was built up to it's modern state of today. The city was divided by a river. One one side. Everything was traded, sold, or bought in Gold. While, on the other side. The same took place with Silver.
So. To answer your question. Purely from an American point of view. They do not appear to need work when they are so happy with their RICHES.

Since it was my question... I would assume that a man who makes his living trading in gold or silver or any commodity, would have to spend some good portion of his time, well, trading. Not drinking tea or smoking in a cafe. Do those trades happen magically?
It also doesn't explain how men in poor countries also find time to sit in cafes all day.

[jafar00]

Since it was my question... I would assume that a man who makes his living trading in gold or silver or any commodity, would have to spend some good portion of his time, well, trading. Not drinking tea or smoking in a cafe. Do those trades happen magically?
It also doesn't explain how men in poor countries also find time to sit in cafes all day.

Actually a lot of business is done in the Middle East in cafes over cups of tea and shishas. I was always out having lunch with clients and business associates when I was based in Cairo. Ah... the good life. How I miss thee....