Should beating a woman, or you wife, EVER be ok?

[jimnyc]

Before the comments of "they don't speak for all Muslims" or "that's not in the Quran" or any other excuses, save it. I'm not stating or implying any of that. I'm simply showing that its a matter of daily life in some places, and in some places there aren't even any laws in places to cover domestic issues or protect a woman should she get beaten. The statistics are very hard to track, as if it's not against the law in some places. or the woman fears of reporting it, it's not so easy to keep track of the stats.

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[Kat]

Ugh. Repulsive. Never ever EVER any reason that is acceptable.

[Noir]

Nope, never, nor is it acceptable for a women to beat her man/husband.

And as Jimmy Carr put it "Who would beat their own wife, it's just so stupid, I mean it's <I>your</I> wife, it's like keying your own car.</I>

[Voted4Reagan]

Before the comments of "they don't speak for all Muslims" or "that's not in the Quran" or any other excuses, save it. I'm not stating or implying any of that. I'm simply showing that its a matter of daily life in some places, and in some places there aren't even any laws in places to cover domestic issues or protect a woman should she get beaten. The statistics are very hard to track, as if it's not against the law in some places. or the woman fears of reporting it, it's not so easy to keep track of the stats.




It's in there.....

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife.

and from the Hadith.....

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Bukhari (72:715) - "Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'" This is Muhammad's own wife complaining of the abuse that the women of her religions suffer relative to other women.

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Muslim (9:3506) - Muhammad's father-in-laws (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him. According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Abu Dawud (2126) - "A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).' The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'" A Muslim man thinks his is getting a virgin, then finds out she is pregnant. Muhammad tells him to treat the woman as a sex slave and then flog her after she has delivered the child.

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 969 - Requires that a married woman be "put in a separate room and beaten lightly" if she "act in a sexual manner toward others." According to the Hadith, this can be for an offense as petty as merely being alone with a man to whom she is not related.

Kash-shaf (the revealer) of al-Zamkhshari (Vol. 1, p. 525) - [Muhammad said] "Hang up your scourge where your wife can see it"

[Little-Acorn]

Thread: Should beating a woman, or you wife, EVER be ok?


This is a joke, right?

Except for the Koran quotes, which certainly are a joke whether meant that way or not..

[Shadow]

Yes...if she is coming at you with a baseball bat or a lorena bobitt knife...you have my permission to beat her ass. ;)

[jimnyc]

Thread: Should beating a woman, or you wife, EVER be ok?


This is a joke, right?

Except for the Koran quotes, which certainly are a joke whether meant that way or not..

Nope, no joke, and the videos should have shown as much. As hard as it is for most of us to comprehend, there are still some small areas throughout the world where this activity is condoned and even promoted.

[abso]

NO it shouldn't be OK, and it's not OK.

by the way, was that another ban or did the server actually had some difficulties ? ;)

[jimnyc]

NO it shouldn't be OK, and it's not OK.

by the way, was that another ban or did the server actually had some difficulties ? ;)


I'm glad you agree that it's not ok, and also realized I wasn't condemning Islam, or you, but the abuse.

I have no idea what you're talking about on your seconds sentence. No one has been banned and there have been no server issues that I am aware of . What problem were you having? What message was the board giving you that made you think you may have been banned?

[abso]

<big><big><big>Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!</big></big></big>
The sections of this article are:
1- Wife beating is not allowed in Islam!
2- Noble Verses and Sayings that support the prohibition of any type of wife beating.
3- The Prophet forbade striking on the face.
4- What about the saying about striking the wife lightly on her hand with a siwak? This saying doesn't belong to Prophet Muhammad.
5- More proofs about the translation of Noble Verse 4:34.
6- Conclusion.



Read the article if interested here:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm

[jimnyc]

Read the article if interested here:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm

I counter your 'answering-christianity' link with one from 'answering-islam'. I don't think they're related.

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

[abso]

I'm glad you agree that it's not ok, and also realized I wasn't condemning Islam, or you, but the abuse.

I have no idea what you're talking about on your seconds sentence. No one has been banned and there have been no server issues that I am aware of . What problem were you having? What message was the board giving you that made you think you may have been banned?

jim, i have been around here for over a year now, and you already know that i never condoned beating women and never will, i will never stand silent if i saw someone beating any woman be it his wife or daughter or girl friend, and i am also glad we agree on this.

about the ban, never mind, you don't like it when i talk about administrative issues on public, am i right ? ;)

[jimnyc]

jim, i have been around here for over a year now, and you already know that i never condoned beating women and never will, i will never stand silent if i saw someone beating any woman be it his wife or daughter or girl friend, and i am also glad we agree on this.

about the ban, never mind, you don't like it when i talk about administrative issues on public, am i right ? ;)

You can send me a PM if you like if you need assistance. But I can say publicly that you, nor anyone else I can think of, has been banned. Send me a message if you think that's not the case. And there was a hiccup a couple of days ago, but the downtime was about 8 seconds or so! LOL

[abso]

Is It OK For A Christian Husband to Gently Beat His Wife?
http://christwire.org/2009/04/is-it-ok-for-a-christian-husband-to-gently-beat-his-wife/

Poll: Is It Okay for A Christian Husband to Gently Beat His Wife
http://christwire.org/2010/04/poll-is-it-okay-for-a-christian-husband-to-gently-beat-his-wife/

Women's Inferior Status
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm

Why Women And The Bible Don’t Mix
http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter10.html


THE ABUSE OF WOMEN IN THE BIBLE
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/category/religion/the-abuse-of-women-in-the-bible-religion/


The Bible Hurts Women
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-bible-hurts-women-445839.html?cat=9


The Horrible Treatment of Women in the Bible
http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/women.htm

Does the bible say anything about treating women right?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090107165944AANe9qW

Treatment of women in the Bible
http://unveiling-christianity.org/2009/08/22/treatment-of-women-in-the-bible/

Women in Christianity and Islam
http://www.answering-christianity.com/treatment.htm

Women and the Bible
http://atheism.about.com/od/bibleoldtestament/a/women.htm

Expendable Women
http://www.netplaces.com/women-of-the-bible/women-who-sacrificed-and-suffered/expendable-women.htm

[abso]

You can send me a PM if you like if you need assistance. But I can say publicly that you, nor anyone else I can think of, has been banned. Send me a message if you think that's not the case. And there was a hiccup a couple of days ago, but the downtime was about 8 seconds or so! LOL

yeah, i am very lucky since birth, seems that i was caught up in those 8 seconds ;), nevermind, whats important is that i can log in again and we can continue to annoy each other now :laugh:

[jimnyc]

LOL

Here we go, abso thinking one or 2 examples will compare to some doing it as a way of life. A few idiots doing it illegally compare to some who do it without fear of the law. The wants to cite the holy book, where only ONE group of religious people today actually follow a book to the T and use it as a way to kill people, or as an excuse - only one.

Sorry, abso, you can NEVER compare the 2, not even close. It is illegal in ALL of America and ALL Americans frown upon beating women, 'cept for a handful of nuts, who will meet justice. We don't teach it as a way of life, or try and excuse the behavior and justify.

Rather than just acknowledge that these areas have major, major issues that need addressing, and millions of women are being abused - you ALWAYS try to change the subject. Bringing up these comparisons are not only horribly incorrect, but do NOTHING to address the issues in Islam, which is likely why it's still such a major issue in some places, because it is largely ignored.

We admit when there are problems with abuse of a woman, demand justice, see justice done. Domestic violence is handled VERY seriously in the US. We have our share of wackos, but they're going to spend some time in prison. It's not even a crime in some Islamic areas, or they go unreported out of fear, or it's just plain out allowed to beat your wife.

[avatar4321]

Does it ever make sense to give yourself a beating? I mean she is part of you.

[abso]

Does it ever make sense to give yourself a beating? I mean she is part of you.

for me it doesn't make any sense to beat anyone, neither the wife nor myself, but if it makes sense to you, i won't stop you from beating yourself :laugh:

[avatar4321]

for me it doesn't make any sense to beat anyone, neither the wife nor myself, but if it makes sense to you, i won't stop you from beating yourself


That's my point. Your wife is one flesh with you. Why would you beat yourself? No sane person would do that.

[Kat]

Is It OK For A Christian Husband to Gently Beat His Wife?
http://christwire.org/2009/04/is-it-ok-for-a-christian-husband-to-gently-beat-his-wife/

Poll: Is It Okay for A Christian Husband to Gently Beat His Wife
http://christwire.org/2010/04/poll-is-it-okay-for-a-christian-husband-to-gently-beat-his-wife/

Women's Inferior Status
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm

Why Women And The Bible Don’t Mix
http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter10.html


THE ABUSE OF WOMEN IN THE BIBLE
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/category/religion/the-abuse-of-women-in-the-bible-religion/


The Bible Hurts Women
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-bible-hurts-women-445839.html?cat=9


The Horrible Treatment of Women in the Bible
http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/women.htm

Does the bible say anything about treating women right?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090107165944AANe9qW

Treatment of women in the Bible
http://unveiling-christianity.org/2009/08/22/treatment-of-women-in-the-bible/

Women in Christianity and Islam
http://www.answering-christianity.com/treatment.htm

Women and the Bible
http://atheism.about.com/od/bibleoldtestament/a/women.htm

Expendable Women
http://www.netplaces.com/women-of-the-bible/women-who-sacrificed-and-suffered/expendable-women.htm




Total desperation. Show video of '''leaders'' of Christianlty telling the proper way to beat a wife and I may listen. Otherwise...you get :rolleyes:

[abso]

LOL

Here we go, abso thinking one or 2 examples will compare to some doing it as a way of life. A few idiots doing it illegally compare to some who do it without fear of the law. The wants to cite the holy book, where only ONE group of religious people today actually follow a book to the T and use it as a way to kill people, or as an excuse - only one.

Sorry, abso, you can NEVER compare the 2, not even close. It is illegal in ALL of America and ALL Americans frown upon beating women, 'cept for a handful of nuts, who will meet justice. We don't teach it as a way of life, or try and excuse the behavior and justify.

Rather than just acknowledge that these areas have major, major issues that need addressing, and millions of women are being abused - you ALWAYS try to change the subject. Bringing up these comparisons are not only horribly incorrect, but do NOTHING to address the issues in Islam, which is likely why it's still such a major issue in some places, because it is largely ignored.

We admit when there are problems with abuse of a woman, demand justice, see justice done. Domestic violence is handled VERY seriously in the US. We have our share of wackos, but they're going to spend some time in prison. It's not even a crime in some Islamic areas, or they go unreported out of fear, or it's just plain out allowed to beat your wife.


United Nations Statistics
Proportion of women experiencing physical violence (irrespective of the perpetrator) at least once in their lifetime and in the last 12 months, 1995–2006

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/Worldswomen/Graphs/Graphs/Graph6.1.pdf



Egypt 35%
Germany 37%
Denmark 39%
Mecixo 40%
Finland 43%
Australia 48%
Czech Republic 51%


you can see the rest in the chart.



Domestic violence Statistics (USA)
http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. STATISTICS
http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Violence Against Women in the United States: Statistics
http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Domestic Violence Statistics
http://domesticviolencestatistics.org/domestic-violence-statistics/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_Statistics

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most rapes in the US go unreported or unsolved
http://www.3news.co.nz/Most-rapes-in-the-US-go-unreported-or-unsolved/tabid/417/articleID/129051/Default.aspx


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


At the national level, major victimization surveys suggest that most sexual assaults go unreported. The National Crime Victimization Survey, conducted each year by the U.S. Department of Justice, found that only 32% of sexual assault cases were reported to police in 1994. The Rape in America survey conducted as a part of the National Women’s Study found that only 16% of rape cases were reported to police or other authorities (Kilpatrick, Edmonds & Seymour, 1992). Data from the National Survey of Adolescents indicated that only 14.3% of sexual assault cases had been reported. Thus, these national studies indicate that somewhere between 14% and 32% of all sexual assaults or rapes are ever reported to police.

These findings suggest that unreported rape constitutes a serious public safety problem. The Scope of the Rape and Sexual Assault Problem
As was previously described in the Statistical Overview section, the NVAW produced an estimate that 14.8% of adult women in the U.S. had been raped sometime during their lives and that another 2.8% had been victims of an attempted rape (Tjaden & Thoennes, 1998). For adult men, comparable lifetime prevalence estimates for rape and attempted rape were 2.1% and 0.9% respectively. The NWS found that 12.7% of adult women had been victims of completed rape and 14.3% had been victims of other types of sexual assault. The National Survey of Adolescents estimated that 13.0% of female adolescents and 3.4% of male adolescents had been victims of a sexual assault at some point during their lives (Kilpatrick & Saunders, 1997).

http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery#United_States
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[abso]

Total desperation. Show video of '''leaders'' of Christianlty telling the proper way to beat a wife and I may listen. Otherwise...you get :rolleyes:

and who said that those in the videos are the leaders of Islam !!!, or are you deciding who is the Islamic leader based on your convince, whoever makes you hate Islam is the real leader ???, if that is the case then i guess Osama Bin Laden would be the best Islamic leader you should listen to his videos.


you can't listen to some radicals and call them Islamic leaders, and i also can't read some articles from christian radicals and call them christian leaders.

[abso]

That's my point. Your wife is one flesh with you. Why would you beat yourself? No sane person would do that.

i agree with you on that, there is never a reason to hit a woman in general, not just your wife.

although i don't know when i have ever said that beating women or wives is okay, you just assumed beating wives is okay with me or what ??? :rolleyes:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

United Nations Statistics
Proportion of women experiencing physical violence (irrespective of the perpetrator) at least once in their lifetime and in the last 12 months, 1995–2006

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/Worldswomen/Graphs/Graphs/Graph6.1.pdf



you can see the rest in the chart.



Domestic violence Statistics (USA)
http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. STATISTICS
http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Violence Against Women in the United States: Statistics
http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Domestic Violence Statistics
http://domesticviolencestatistics.org/domestic-violence-statistics/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_Statistics

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most rapes in the US go unreported or unsolved
http://www.3news.co.nz/Most-rapes-in-the-US-go-unreported-or-unsolved/tabid/417/articleID/129051/Default.aspx


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery#United_States
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now list the countries where its not a crime ! Most of the ones listed it is a crime to beat your wife or any other woman..hint, why its called rape and domestic violence in your links. Wheras in Islamic countries its not a crime and the women have no recourse . All you did was cite that violence/crimes of assault exists in other countries. Nothing you posted there proved that it does not exist in Islamic countries! Nor that its illegal to do so in the Islamic faith /countries.-Tyr

[Kat]

and who said that those in the videos are the leaders of Islam !!!, or are you deciding who is the Islamic leader based on your convince, whoever makes you hate Islam is the real leader ???, if that is the case then i guess Osama Bin Laden would be the best Islamic leader you should listen to his videos.


you can't listen to some radicals and call them Islamic leaders, and i also can't read some articles from christian radicals and call them christian leaders.


Didn't you notice I had leaders as ''leaders''? I used parenthesis. I assume you know what that means when you do that.

I don't hate. No need to. Do you?

[abso]

Now list the countries where its not a crime ! Most of the ones listed it is a crime to beat your wife or any other woman..hint, why its called rape and domestic violence in your links. Wheras in Islamic countries its not a crime and the women have no recourse . All you did was cite that violence/crimes of assault exists in other countries. Nothing you posted there proved that it does not exist in Islamic countries! Nor that its illegal to do so in the Islamic faith /countries.-Tyr

you list them, and i will be waiting ...


about the post, i posted that in reply to jim, he claims that Quran and bible both have violent verses, but only muslims actually beat their wives and abuse them, and that was my reply to him, abuse and rape of women in USA is alot more than in any arabic or Islamic country.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

you list them, and i will be waiting ...


about the post, i posted that in reply to jim, he claims that Quran and bible both have violent verses, but only muslims actually beat their wives and abuse them, and that was my reply to him, abuse and rape of women in USA is alot more than in any arabic or Islamic country.

A lot more or just reported more because the women have recourse here? They have a system that backs them here. In most muslim nations no such support exists.
I asked you to list them it was your links you used to try to prove your stand not mine.
And I noted yes its reported more here because we have well over 300 million population and its a crime here not hidden or ignored! A crime where both the man and the woman go to jail to have to bond out in many domestic violence cases.
About rape in muslim countries ,why would the women report it when it so often leads to the female being stoned to death and the male gets no punishment?? Surely even you would admit that is a strong deterrent to reporting a rape, it being like signing up to die! -Tyr

[abso]

A lot more or just reported more because the women have recourse here? They have a system that backs them here. In most muslim nations no such support exists.
I asked you to list them it was your links you used to try to prove your stand not mine.
And I noted yes its reported more here because we have well over 300 million population and its a crime here not hidden or ignored! A crime where both the man and the woman go to jail to have to bond out in many domestic violence cases.
About rape in muslim countries ,why would the women report it when it so often leads to the female being stoned to death and the male gets no punishment?? Surely even you would admit that is a strong deterrent to reporting a rape, it being like signing up to die! -Tyr

you should read my post again ...



At the national level, major victimization surveys suggest that most sexual assaults go unreported. The National Crime Victimization Survey, conducted each year by the U.S. Department of Justice, found that only 32% of sexual assault cases were reported to police in 1994. The Rape in America survey conducted as a part of the National Women’s Study found that only 16% of rape cases were reported to police or other authorities (Kilpatrick, Edmonds & Seymour, 1992). Data from the National Survey of Adolescents indicated that only 14.3% of sexual assault cases had been reported. Thus, these national studies indicate that somewhere between 14% and 32% of all sexual assaults or rapes are ever reported to police.

in other links, the estimation of unreported sexual assaults and rapes in USA is about 50%, so the unreported assaults and rapes ranges from 50 ~ 68%.

68% of sexual assaults in USA are unreported and you are talking about the system ???????????

sorry, what were you actually saying ???? ;)



and by the way, the rape statistics takes into consideration the number of citizens, because they are measured per 100,000 citizen, so it doesn't matter if you are above 300 millions and some countries have only 10 or 15 millions, you still have a very high rape and sexual assault percentage.


Note: Unreported crimes is not mainly because of the system, its mainly because the victims themselves doesn't want to report it for many reasons, maybe the offender is her boss or a member of her family or her partner or her husband, many reasons prevent them from reporting the rape or the abuse, its not about the system, because abuse and rape is a crime in every nation on earth that i know of, if you know of some countries that doesn't consider rape or abuse as a crime then please enlighten us.

[SassyLady]

you list them, and i will be waiting ...


about the post, i posted that in reply to jim, he claims that Quran and bible both have violent verses, but only muslims actually beat their wives and abuse them, and that was my reply to him, abuse and rape of women in USA is alot more than in any arabic or Islamic country.

It may seem that way to you, abso, because we are actually allowed to report the abuse because the authorities will do something to the abuser. I believe we are trying to point out that abuse is allowed/condoned/encouraged and actually protected by law in many ME countries and societies. Therefore, women who are being abused have no recourse so why bother reporting.

Your stats are not accurate based on the concept that the abuse is being reported.

Oooops .. looks like Tyr has addressed this already.

[jafar00]

I counter your 'answering-christianity' link with one from 'answering-islam'. I don't think they're related.

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

I concur with abso. Wife beating is not allowed in Islam. This is what I have been taught and it is ingrained into my very soul. I have never hit a woman and never will. In fact the last time I raised a fist in anger was when I beat up the school bully at age 11 because I had enough of being bullied.

There is a lot of misinformation out there. Much of it from Christians and from Jewish media organisations like Memri that cherry pick and twist arab media to whatever they want. Not every guy with a beard that Memri shows is a leader or even a recognised Sheikh or Imam.

[red states rule]

I concur with abso. Wife beating is not allowed in Islam. This is what I have been taught and it is ingrained into my very soul. I have never hit a woman and never will. In fact the last time I raised a fist in anger was when I beat up the school bully at age 11 because I had enough of being bullied.

There is a lot of misinformation out there. Much of it from Christians and from Jewish media organisations like Memri that cherry pick and twist arab media to whatever they want. Not every guy with a beard that Memri shows is a leader or even a recognised Sheikh or Imam.

In the case of you and Bozo - yes your religion will not permit to beat your wifes

Just behead them or stone them in the town square

[aboutime]

I concur with abso. Wife beating is not allowed in Islam. This is what I have been taught and it is ingrained into my very soul. I have never hit a woman and never will. In fact the last time I raised a fist in anger was when I beat up the school bully at age 11 because I had enough of being bullied.

There is a lot of misinformation out there. Much of it from Christians and from Jewish media organisations like Memri that cherry pick and twist arab media to whatever they want. Not every guy with a beard that Memri shows is a leader or even a recognised Sheikh or Imam.


jafar. You should tell those members of Islam, and the Muslim brotherhood to more directly DEFINE 'wife beating', and separate it from STONING, and FIRING SQUAD participation. Then, and only then would your remark about "Wife beating is not allowed in Islam" be accurate.

[tailfins]

I have a question for Southerners: Is inbreeding EVER OK? Just askin'. Come to think of it, the wife beating question kind of fits for them too!

[jimnyc]

I concur with abso. Wife beating is not allowed in Islam. This is what I have been taught and it is ingrained into my very soul. I have never hit a woman and never will. In fact the last time I raised a fist in anger was when I beat up the school bully at age 11 because I had enough of being bullied.

There is a lot of misinformation out there. Much of it from Christians and from Jewish media organisations like Memri that cherry pick and twist arab media to whatever they want. Not every guy with a beard that Memri shows is a leader or even a recognised Sheikh or Imam.

Does that mean that the links that Abso posted are also cherry picked and misinformation from others?

[abso]

It may seem that way to you, abso, because we are actually allowed to report the abuse because the authorities will do something to the abuser. I believe we are trying to point out that abuse is allowed/condoned/encouraged and actually protected by law in many ME countries and societies. Therefore, women who are being abused have no recourse so why bother reporting.

Your stats are not accurate based on the concept that the abuse is being reported.

Oooops .. looks like Tyr has addressed this already.

they are not my stats, they are the united nations stats...

about the unreported abuse i have already pointed out that in USA itself about 68% of the abuse goes unreported.


and about what you said, may you point out to us which ME countries "Allow, condone, encourage, prtotect" women abuse, and please provide us with the laws that allows it.

or is it just some words you read in the media, arabs are savages, arabs stone women, arabs abuse women, arab countries allow abusing women, arab countries encourage abusing women, how the hell will we do that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, again, provide me with a country name and the law which allows abuse in it.

[jimnyc]

they are not my stats, they are the united nations stats...

about the unreported abuse i have already pointed out that in USA itself about 68% of the abuse goes unreported.


and about what you said, may you point out to us which ME countries "Allow, condone, encourage, prtotect" women abuse, and please provide us with the laws that allows it.

or is it just some words you read in the media, arabs are savages, arabs stone women, arabs abuse women, arab countries allow abusing women, arab countries encourage abusing women, how the hell will we do that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, again, provide me with a country name and the law which allows abuse in it.

never happened! anything u find and is about the states is true, but we are supposed to ignore the MOUNTAINS of info about Islam. i have posted proof over and over and over, and u find a way to dismiss everything. everything u posted is bogus facts about US and lies!

ohe

[jimnyc]

they are not my stats, they are the united nations stats...

about the unreported abuse i have already pointed out that in USA itself about 68% of the abuse goes unreported.

Curious, when I post numbers from Egypt, I am met with several scenarios from 2 Muslims as of late:

1) Never happened
2) It happens, but the numbers are inflated
3) Perhaps Christians and Jews making reports to make Muslims look bad
4) No source, including the UN and other sources you use yourself, are good enough proof of the claims of rampant abuse in Islam, especially in Egypt.
5) we/I am cherry picking souirces

The I post actual videos of women speaking of the abuse, and men acknowledging it, and Imams and Clerics explaining how it is ok and/or justified in certain scenarios. All denied and/or met with excuses. And then on reply was this gem:


Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!
The sections of this article are:
1- Wife beating is not allowed in Islam!
2- Noble Verses and Sayings that support the prohibition of any type of wife beating.
3- The Prophet forbade striking on the face.
4- What about the saying about striking the wife lightly on her hand with a siwak? This saying doesn't belong to Prophet Muhammad.
5- More proofs about the translation of Noble Verse 4:34.
6- Conclusion.

If Islam forbids ANY beating of women, in ANY case - then why the need to point out that striking in the face is off limits? If it's forbidden in Islam, wouldn't striking a woman ANYWHERE be forbade?

So I think I will mimic the route of those defending Islam here. Women are not beaten in American, it is forbidden and we even have laws protecting them! If some thugs do it, they certainly aren't Americans! And without a doubt, the numbers you post are much too inflated to be true, and likely because those sites have an anti-American agenda.

[red states rule]

they are not my stats, they are the united nations stats...

about the unreported abuse i have already pointed out that in USA itself about 68% of the abuse goes unreported.


and about what you said, may you point out to us which ME countries "Allow, condone, encourage, prtotect" women abuse, and please provide us with the laws that allows it.

or is it just some words you read in the media, arabs are savages, arabs stone women, arabs abuse women, arab countries allow abusing women, arab countries encourage abusing women, how the hell will we do that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, again, provide me with a country name and the law which allows abuse in it.


Here you go Bozo. I am sure you would enjoy this vidoe of a women being stoned to death if add a laugh track


http://youtu.be/QHUCLRrvklM

[Roo]

No.

Occasionally I ask mine to beat me though...but its always with leather;)

[avatar4321]

i agree with you on that, there is never a reason to hit a woman in general, not just your wife.

although i don't know when i have ever said that beating women or wives is okay, you just assumed beating wives is okay with me or what ???


I dont think Ive ever made that claim.

[Kathianne]

for me it doesn't make any sense to beat anyone, neither the wife nor myself, but if it makes sense to you, i won't stop you from beating yourself :laugh:

Not following what was posted.

[Kathianne]

United Nations Statistics
Proportion of women experiencing physical violence (irrespective of the perpetrator) at least once in their lifetime and in the last 12 months, 1995–2006

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/Worldswomen/Graphs/Graphs/Graph6.1.pdf



you can see the rest in the chart.



Domestic violence Statistics (USA)
http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. STATISTICS
http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Violence Against Women in the United States: Statistics
http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Domestic Violence Statistics
http://domesticviolencestatistics.org/domestic-violence-statistics/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#UN_Rape_Statistics

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most rapes in the US go unreported or unsolved
http://www.3news.co.nz/Most-rapes-in-the-US-go-unreported-or-unsolved/tabid/417/articleID/129051/Default.aspx


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/sa.shtml
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_slavery#United_States
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All one is seeing here is the ability of women to report. Of course countries that enable secondary status of women are going to come up with higher numbers. Is rape better than death? Beatings? It's easy for those not under such a policy to say, 'No', but life will out.

[Kathianne]

i agree with you on that, there is never a reason to hit a woman in general, not just your wife.

although i don't know when i have ever said that beating women or wives is okay, you just assumed beating wives is okay with me or what ??? :rolleyes:

He never insinuated such. Why so defensive?

[jimnyc]

Is It OK For A Christian Husband to Gently Beat His Wife?
http://christwire.org/2009/04/is-it-ok-for-a-christian-husband-to-gently-beat-his-wife/

Poll: Is It Okay for A Christian Husband to Gently Beat His Wife
http://christwire.org/2010/04/poll-is-it-okay-for-a-christian-husband-to-gently-beat-his-wife/

Women's Inferior Status
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm

Why Women And The Bible Don’t Mix
http://www.biblicalnonsense.com/chapter10.html


THE ABUSE OF WOMEN IN THE BIBLE
http://doubtingthomas426.wordpress.com/category/religion/the-abuse-of-women-in-the-bible-religion/


The Bible Hurts Women
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-bible-hurts-women-445839.html?cat=9


The Horrible Treatment of Women in the Bible
http://biblebabble.curbjaw.com/women.htm

Does the bible say anything about treating women right?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090107165944AANe9qW

Treatment of women in the Bible
http://unveiling-christianity.org/2009/08/22/treatment-of-women-in-the-bible/

Women in Christianity and Islam
http://www.answering-christianity.com/treatment.htm

Women and the Bible
http://atheism.about.com/od/bibleoldtestament/a/women.htm

Expendable Women
http://www.netplaces.com/women-of-the-bible/women-who-sacrificed-and-suffered/expendable-women.htm

As to these links, or to where I at least made it to... I shouldn't even be out of bed, but I can't type on my damn tablet. But I copied them and was going to give them fair play, read them as well as I read the Islam crap, and call out scum where I see it... I started right here with Abso's 1st link of course, and thought I would work my way down. The bold comments are comments made in his links, my comments follow:

http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

One in four women (25%) has experienced domestic violence in her lifetime.

I'll have to look at who was polled for this "lifetime" and how long they did this study for...

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend to 3 million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year.

There are nearly 160 million women in the USA, as of 2009. 3 Million is a large number, but makes up about a little less than 2.5% of the total population of women. Nothing to be proud of, but I'll compare that with Egypts rampany abuse any day of the week.

Between 600,000 and 6 million women are victims of domestic violence each year, and between 100,000 and 6 million men, depending on the type of survey used to obtain the data.

A few lines later and the totals jumped from 3 million to 6 million. Oh, I noticed they added "depending on the type of survey used to obtain the data. Anyway, regardless, you still have the number at 5%, a mere mini fraction of what happens in so many other places. But I imagine these links will be flip flopping in data and rhetoric, but I'll go ver the fairly and pay attention to them, and respond where appropriate. I think it only fair since yourself and Jafar do the same when I post links and my research.

Women of all races are about equally vulnerable to violence by an intimate partner.(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey, August 1995)

I will bite my tongue till it bleeds to refrain from making racists comments here. Suffice to say, this article is for shit and the statistics within are laughable. I'll make believe this tidbit didn't exist.

Nearly three out of four (74%) of Americans personally know someone who is or has been a victim of domestic violence.

I know about 80% of Americans that would consider themselves victims of a Muslim terrorist attack.

Go back to this link you posted again. Read each statistic again. Then look to where they link to their sources. Oh, they don't? I assume some are legit from legit books, bit for example, the one titled "Estimates from the Redesigned Survey, August 1995", from 16 years ago, I would really need to see further evidence. Thus far, as you've pointed out millions of absolute scumbags and scumbag activity, it doesn't go far to serve as a comparison, unless of course this is your way of admitting what I have stated all along is true.

http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

On this one, let's again start with the first on the list:

Fact #1: 18.3 % of women in the United States have survived a completed or attempted rape. Of these, 12.3% were younger than age 12 when they were first raped, and 29.9% were between the ages of 11 and 17. (National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

You did do your due diligence in posting these, no, to make sure they were valid? Ok, let's go to the videotape as they say (or original survey? which is here -

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

On page 18 of their survey they cover what your link has posted, remember, just posted above. Here are the actual words:

Nearly 1 in 5 women in the United States has been raped in her lifetime (18.3%) (Table 2.1). This translates to almost 22 million women in the United States. The most common form of rape victimization experienced by women was completed forced penetration, experienced by 12.3% of women in the United States. About 5% of women (5.2%) experienced attempted forced penetration, and 8.0% experienced alcohol/drug-facilitated completed forced penetration. One percent, or approximately 1.3 million women, reported some type of rape victimization in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.

So it would appear that the 18.3% figure is accurately taken from that survey, and deplorable I might add. But look at ther line from the link you provided. They claim that 12.3% of these 18.3% were younger than age 12 when first raped. Now look at the actually survey, and that 12.3% statistic has nothing to do at all with women under the age of 12.

Abso, I'm sorry, this is where MY due diligence of your links stop. You never even gave mine a chance, but I was sure to get backup versions in case you refuted what I posted. And now it appears you just want to grab the first bunch of garbage you can find with high numbers, in a manner to laughibly imply that women in America are in some manner treated like possessions, like they are in many places in Egypt, and other Islamic areas.

But save your whining. I condemn these fucked up abuses by American men, as does our society which always tries to bring them to justice, and have a very high success rate. These men are scum just like the "men" that do so in Islam, only of course it's only denied in Islamic areas, we Americans are honest and admit or failures, admit we have bad people and work our hardest to get rid of them or bring them to justice. If you say that's the case in Islam, then you are naive, and don't give the amount of time to what I post as I do in return to yours. But I'm neither surprised or disappointed with that.

And just like our Obama posters who can't handle when he is condemnded here, and revert to talk of George W Bush - will you guys ever just address the stuff we post instead of giving a simple denial and than trying to post American stuff to obfuscate the thread? Post that as a new thread if you like and I will happily address it, with facts and reality, without denials, unlike you.

[jafar00]

never happened! anything u find and is about the states is true, but we are supposed to ignore the MOUNTAINS of info about Islam. i have posted proof over and over and over, and u find a way to dismiss everything. everything u posted is bogus facts about US and lies!

ohe

There are MOUNTAINS of disinfo and lies out there.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

As to these links, or to where I at least made it to... I shouldn't even be out of bed, but I can't type on my damn tablet. But I copied them and was going to give them fair play, read them as well as I read the Islam crap, and call out scum where I see it... I started right here with Abso's 1st link of course, and thought I would work my way down. The bold comments are comments made in his links, my comments follow:

http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

One in four women (25%) has experienced domestic violence in her lifetime.

I'll have to look at who was polled for this "lifetime" and how long they did this study for...

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend to 3 million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year.

There are nearly 160 million women in the USA, as of 2009. 3 Million is a large number, but makes up about a little less than 2.5% of the total population of women. Nothing to be proud of, but I'll compare that with Egypts rampany abuse any day of the week.

Between 600,000 and 6 million women are victims of domestic violence each year, and between 100,000 and 6 million men, depending on the type of survey used to obtain the data.

A few lines later and the totals jumped from 3 million to 6 million. Oh, I noticed they added "depending on the type of survey used to obtain the data. Anyway, regardless, you still have the number at 5%, a mere mini fraction of what happens in so many other places. But I imagine these links will be flip flopping in data and rhetoric, but I'll go ver the fairly and pay attention to them, and respond where appropriate. I think it only fair since yourself and Jafar do the same when I post links and my research.

Women of all races are about equally vulnerable to violence by an intimate partner.(Bureau of Justice Statistics, Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey, August 1995)

I will bite my tongue till it bleeds to refrain from making racists comments here. Suffice to say, this article is for shit and the statistics within are laughable. I'll make believe this tidbit didn't exist.

Nearly three out of four (74%) of Americans personally know someone who is or has been a victim of domestic violence.

I know about 80% of Americans that would consider themselves victims of a Muslim terrorist attack.

Go back to this link you posted again. Read each statistic again. Then look to where they link to their sources. Oh, they don't? I assume some are legit from legit books, bit for example, the one titled "Estimates from the Redesigned Survey, August 1995", from 16 years ago, I would really need to see further evidence. Thus far, as you've pointed out millions of absolute scumbags and scumbag activity, it doesn't go far to serve as a comparison, unless of course this is your way of admitting what I have stated all along is true.

http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

On this one, let's again start with the first on the list:

Fact #1: 18.3 % of women in the United States have survived a completed or attempted rape. Of these, 12.3% were younger than age 12 when they were first raped, and 29.9% were between the ages of 11 and 17. (National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010)

You did do your due diligence in posting these, no, to make sure they were valid? Ok, let's go to the videotape as they say (or original survey? which is here -

http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

On page 18 of their survey they cover what your link has posted, remember, just posted above. Here are the actual words:

Nearly 1 in 5 women in the United States has been raped in her lifetime (18.3%) (Table 2.1). This translates to almost 22 million women in the United States. The most common form of rape victimization experienced by women was completed forced penetration, experienced by 12.3% of women in the United States. About 5% of women (5.2%) experienced attempted forced penetration, and 8.0% experienced alcohol/drug-facilitated completed forced penetration. One percent, or approximately 1.3 million women, reported some type of rape victimization in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.

So it would appear that the 18.3% figure is accurately taken from that survey, and deplorable I might add. But look at ther line from the link you provided. They claim that 12.3% of these 18.3% were younger than age 12 when first raped. Now look at the actually survey, and that 12.3% statistic has nothing to do at all with women under the age of 12.

Abso, I'm sorry, this is where MY due diligence of your links stop. You never even gave mine a chance, but I was sure to get backup versions in case you refuted what I posted. And now it appears you just want to grab the first bunch of garbage you can find with high numbers, in a manner to laughibly imply that women in America are in some manner treated like possessions, like they are in many places in Egypt, and other Islamic areas.

But save your whining. I condemn these fucked up abuses by American men, as does our society which always tries to bring them to justice, and have a very high success rate. These men are scum just like the "men" that do so in Islam, only of course it's only denied in Islamic areas, we Americans are honest and admit or failures, admit we have bad people and work our hardest to get rid of them or bring them to justice. If you say that's the case in Islam, then you are naive, and don't give the amount of time to what I post as I do in return to yours. But I'm neither surprised or disappointed with that.

And just like our Obama posters who can't handle when he is condemnded here, and revert to talk of George W Bush - will you guys ever just address the stuff we post instead of giving a simple denial and than trying to post American stuff to obfuscate the thread? Post that as a new thread if you like and I will happily address it, with facts and reality, without denials, unlike you.

Excellent post. I am sure Jafar and Abso will read it and dismiss it as the rantings of an infidel. For that is their fall back defense when confronted with too much truth and logical reasoning.-Tyr

[jimnyc]

Excellent post. I am sure Jafar and Abso will read it and dismiss it as the rantings of an infidel. For that is their fall back defense when confronted with too much truth and logical reasoning.-Tyr


There are MOUNTAINS of disinfo and lies out there.

You toss aside every article whether from America, the offending country and abusers or from International and impartial agencies like the Red Cross. You deny actual videos as perhaps setups. There are easily thousands and thousands of well documented clips out there that you would dismiss, even though corroborated. There are more than thousands and thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, if not more, that give solid proof of the undeniable abuse of women in Egypt. Now, admittedly you don't say "all" of things presented are lies or wrong, but while you address the stuff you refuse to believe - NEVER a peep about the bonafide truth of the endless proof and evidence.

You post about a woman standing in front of a bulldozer in another thread. There was undeniable proof that the newspapers used 2 different pictures to make their story sounds better. What would you say and how would you feel if I simply dismiss the entire thing and say it never happened? The pictures are disinformation and the claims from anyone on the Muslim side are lies. It's all bogus, NEVER HAPPENED! Sounds kind of stupid to deny things that there are witnesses to, no? But you'll still continue your campaign of denial. But I'm sorry to inform you, your campaign of denial does nothing to change the facts, so sorry!

And Tyr, you nailed it whether you noticed it or not, although I haven't been labeled an infidel, yet anyway. It was just dismissed. They would like to stand behind words about Pedophilia from Americans, when it was proven a lie. And once proven, with their own links, still not a peep. But Muhammed, Aisha and other Muslims ADMIT that he married a 6yr old and had sex with her at 9. But that's ok and with explanation.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You toss aside every article whether from America, the offending country and abusers or from International and impartial agencies like the Red Cross. You deny actual videos as perhaps setups. There are easily thousands and thousands of well documented clips out there that you would dismiss, even though corroborated. There are more than thousands and thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, if not more, that give solid proof of the undeniable abuse of women in Egypt. Now, admittedly you don't say "all" of things presented are lies or wrong, but while you address the stuff you refuse to believe - NEVER a peep about the bonafide truth of the endless proof and evidence.

You post about a woman standing in front of a bulldozer in another thread. There was undeniable proof that the newspapers used 2 different pictures to make their story sounds better. What would you say and how would you feel if I simply dismiss the entire thing and say it never happened? The pictures are disinformation and the claims from anyone on the Muslim side are lies. It's all bogus, NEVER HAPPENED! Sounds kind of stupid to deny things that there are witnesses to, no? But you'll still continue your campaign of denial. But I'm sorry to inform you, your campaign of denial does nothing to change the facts, so sorry!

And Tyr, you nailed it whether you noticed it or not, although I haven't been labeled an infidel, yet anyway. It was just dismissed. They would like to stand behind words about Pedophilia from Americans, when it was proven a lie. And once proven, with their own links, still not a peep. But Muhammed, Aisha and other Muslims ADMIT that he married a 6yr old and had sex with her at 9. But that's ok and with explanation.

Mohammed was a pervert, plain and simple. Never in civilised world has it been normal or moral to have sex with a 9 year old little girl. I've always found that their defense of this vile and wicked conduct by their demigod pervert Mohammed points to just how blinded they are to reality. Its never ok and never wil be ok to have sex with a child.
The bullshat defense they use is laughable and based upon known lies. Islam teaches them to ignore truth in favor of its doctrine of hate, lies and absolute obedience. -Tyr

[KarlMarx]

There are times when it is OK to beat your wife....

you can beat her at checkers or
you can beat her at tic tac toe or
you can beat her at Monopoly


come to think of it...

maybe you should just let her win

[tailfins]

As to these links, or to where I at least made it to... I shouldn't even be out of bed, but I can't type on my damn tablet. But I copied them and was going to give them fair play, read them as well as I read the Islam crap, and call out scum where I see it... I started right here with Abso's 1st link of course, and thought I would work my way down. The bold comments are comments made in his links, my comments follow:

http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/#dom

One in four women (25%) has experienced domestic violence in her lifetime.......

I smell fundraising.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There are times when it is OK to beat your wife....

you can beat her at checkers or
you can beat her at tic tac toe or
you can beat her at Monopoly


come to think of it...

maybe you should just let her win

I vote that anybody that steals your money should be beaten regardless of sex! Especially if they steal it and no sex!-:laugh:

[KarlMarx]

... Especially if they steal it and no sex!-:laugh:
We were talking about whether it was OK to beat your wife... not beg to her :)

[abso]

Not following what was posted.

someone asked me why would i beat my wife while she is considered to be a part of me, and then he said that i better beat myself since the wife is a part of me, so that was my reply to him, that i would never beat my wife nor myself, that's all :D

of course he just said that out of nowhere, i never stated that i will beat my wife, so that's the reason of my sarcasm in the reply.

[avatar4321]

someone asked me why would i beat my wife while she is considered to be a part of me, and then he said that i better beat myself since the wife is a part of me, so that was my reply to him, that i would never beat my wife nor myself, that's all


of course he just said that out of nowhere, i never stated that i will beat my wife, so that's the reason of my sarcasm in the reply.

Who asked you that?