View Full Version : The legal penalty for fornication
Can you provide me with some details concerning the punishment for committing adultery? Is it necessary to have a punishment for the sin to be forgiven?
When he confessed four times, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) called him and said: �Are you insane?� He said: �No, O Messenger of Allah!� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: �Are you married?� He said: �Yes, O Messenger of Allah!� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said (to the people): �Take him away and stone him to death.� (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6439)
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4208&CATE=42
If only I were better educated I would understand that this is CLEARLY a metaphor.....sorry Jaffy...yours is a violent Religion.
jimnyc
08-25-2012, 09:34 AM
Never happened! :lol:
Yay! I like this game...
Deuteronomy 2222 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
If only I were better educated I would understand that this is CLEARLY a metaphor...or are the Jews a violent religion too!
(Cue some idiot saying i'm trying to defend islam.)
jimnyc
08-25-2012, 09:54 AM
Yay! I like this game...
If only I were better educated I would understand that this is CLEARLY a metaphor...or are the Jews a violent religion too!
(Cue some idiot saying i'm trying to defend islam.)
Nope, I won't say you're defending Islam. But if you do like this game - then educate us. While both holy books may contain penalties on this subject, or penalties for other things. Which religion today is still administering stone age punishments daily, and a matter of normal practice? Which religion literally lives their lives based on their holy book? Which religion allows for no straying whatsoever from their book? Which religion will put you in jail for desecrating their holy book? Which religion will put you in jail, or perhaps punish up to and including death for insulting a major player in their holy book? While religion will call for punishments if you choose not to believe the holy book any longer and convert to another religion and holy book? That's it for starters.
Nope, I won't say you're defending Islam. But if you do like this game - then educate us. While both holy books may contain penalties on this subject, or penalties for other things. Which religion today is still administering stone age punishments daily, and a matter of normal practice? Which religion literally lives their lives based on their holy book? Which religion allows for no straying whatsoever from their book? Which religion will put you in jail for desecrating their holy book? Which religion will put you in jail, or perhaps punish up to and including death for insulting a major player in their holy book? While religion will call for punishments if you choose not to believe the holy book any longer and convert to another religion and holy book? That's it for starters.
Exactly! If the Muslims didn't take whats written in their book so seriously, like the Jews, the world would be a much better place. Sadly too many (and not just Muslims, though they are especially bad at it) get their morality from ancient texts, rather than modern thinking.
It reminds me of something Christopher Hitchens said - He would have no problem with any religion, as long as it accepted that it was bound by science and philosophy. :laugh:
Thunderknuckles
08-25-2012, 10:56 AM
Exactly! If the Muslims didn't take whats written in their book so seriously, like the Jews, the world would be a much better place. Sadly too many (and not just Muslims, though they are especially bad at it) get their morality from ancient texts, rather than modern thinking.
You need to differentiate between morality and punishment. You seem to have an issue with punishment, not morality. I would make the case that the world would be a MUCH better place if everyone based their morality on sacred texts and NOT modern thinking.
The penalties for violating a moral code is another matter however.
taft2012
08-25-2012, 11:51 AM
Exactly! If the Muslims didn't take whats written in their book so seriously, like the Jews, the world would be a much better place. Sadly too many (and not just Muslims, though they are especially bad at it) get their morality from ancient texts, rather than modern thinking.
It reminds me of something Christopher Hitchens said - He would have no problem with any religion, as long as it accepted that it was bound by science and philosophy. :laugh:
Except that science has been corrupted and is now vulnerable to economic and ideological influences, as we've seen in the global warming fiasco.
jafar00
08-25-2012, 12:01 PM
Can you provide me with some details concerning the punishment for committing adultery? Is it necessary to have a punishment for the sin to be forgiven?
When he confessed four times, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) called him and said: �Are you insane?� He said: �No, O Messenger of Allah!� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: �Are you married?� He said: �Yes, O Messenger of Allah!� The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said (to the people): �Take him away and stone him to death.� (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 6439)
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4208&CATE=42
If only I were better educated I would understand that this is CLEARLY a metaphor.....sorry Jaffy...yours is a violent Religion.
Didn't you read the link you posted? Great effort must be expended to avoid a conviction. 4 witness must swear that they saw the act clearly as if they were right there getting a lose up view of the penis entering the vagina as if they saw
"The Kohl needle entering the Kohl bottle"
http://shop.momo-interiors.com/ekmps/shops/momointeriors/images/blue-moroccan-kohl-bottle-1818-p.jpg
plus the witnesses can be punished for bearing false witness. It is almost impossible to gain a conviction if the letter of the law is followed since it would basically require the 4 witnesses to be in the front seat of a live sex show. Sure the Taliban have done some executions, but before them such punishments were almost unheard of in recorded history.
BTW, stoning is not unique to Islam alone. If you go by what the bible says, convictions of adultery are much much easier to come by. Islam actually made it harder and stresses that the judge must try his hardest not to come to the conclusion that the guilty parties are guilty of the crime at all.
I know you and others love to pick at Islam and condemn the religion at any costs for everything including the actions of criminals that are contrary to Islam, but seriously, you are clutching at straws here.
jimnyc
08-25-2012, 12:11 PM
BTW, stoning is not unique to Islam alone. If you go by what the bible says,
I love it when I see people try to absolve atrocities with the "But the other guy..." crap. This still happens in some Islamic societies today. You won't see it with Christians that have reached civilization and left others in the stone ages.
Yay! I like this game...
If only I were better educated I would understand that this is CLEARLY a metaphor...or are the Jews a violent religion too!
(Cue some idiot saying i'm trying to defend islam.)
Too funny...show me where in modern times any Jew has done this...oh wait...you can't.....and you can find many case where Islam still does it...sorry...your point is silly.
Didn't you read the link you posted? Great effort must be expended to avoid a conviction. 4 witness must swear that they saw the act clearly as if they were right there getting a lose up view of the penis entering the vagina as if they saw
"The Kohl needle entering the Kohl bottle"
http://shop.momo-interiors.com/ekmps/shops/momointeriors/images/blue-moroccan-kohl-bottle-1818-p.jpg
plus the witnesses can be punished for bearing false witness. It is almost impossible to gain a conviction if the letter of the law is followed since it would basically require the 4 witnesses to be in the front seat of a live sex show. Sure the Taliban have done some executions, but before them such punishments were almost unheard of in recorded history.
BTW, stoning is not unique to Islam alone. If you go by what the bible says, convictions of adultery are much much easier to come by. Islam actually made it harder and stresses that the judge must try his hardest not to come to the conclusion that the guilty parties are guilty of the crime at all.
I know you and others love to pick at Islam and condemn the religion at any costs for everything including the actions of criminals that are contrary to Islam, but seriously, you are clutching at straws here.
I knew thats tha tack you would take..well that makes it ALL better, they made him confess FOUR times so it is ok.
Poor Jaffy...you kids still do it, the Jews don't.....no grasping of straws at all.
Too funny...show me where in modern times any Jew has done this...oh wait...you can't.....and you can find many case where Islam still does it...sorry...your point is silly.
Not when my point is that the application of ancient 'holy' texts to modern crime and punishment is unneeded and unwanted in a modern, civil society.
The fact that Muslim have think about killing people for things in their text doesn't make them a violent religion, it's the fact that they do what their scripture says that makes it so. As I posted, the Jews have the same kind of message in their scripture, but because they don't take it seriously, alls fine.
The less seriously people take their religion, the better.
jimnyc
08-25-2012, 04:55 PM
The less seriously people take their religion, the better.
I think it would be more appropriate to say, it would be better if less people pervert the meaning of their religion, or if people didn't use scripture to kill, no matter what is written. Or that people didn't celebrate in the name of religion when a death has occurred.
One can still take their faith very seriously without taking everything literal in today's world. Its those people, whether they are acknowledged or not, that give others a bad name and religion a bad name.
Dilloduck
08-25-2012, 05:06 PM
Exactly! If the Muslims didn't take whats written in their book so seriously, like the Jews, the world would be a much better place. Sadly too many (and not just Muslims, though they are especially bad at it) get their morality from ancient texts, rather than modern thinking.
It reminds me of something Christopher Hitchens said - He would have no problem with any religion, as long as it accepted that it was bound by science and philosophy. :laugh:
Smart fellow that Mr. Hitchens. There would be no punishment for fornication if we were bound by science and or philosophy.
I think it would be more appropriate to say, it would be better if less people pervert the meaning of their religion, or if people didn't use scripture to kill, no matter what is written. Or that people didn't celebrate in the name of religion when a death has occurred.
One can still take their faith very seriously without taking everything literal in today's world. Its those people, whether they are acknowledged or not, that give others a bad name and religion a bad name.
The Muslims, and the Jews, don't have to pervert their religion, they just need to follow their holy books as they are written and they'd be killing all over the place.
The fact that Muslim have think about killing people for things in their text doesn't make them a violent religion, it's the fact that they do what their scripture says that makes it so.
Um.....sorry...no linear thought there what so ever......the text says to do it, it's adherents do what the text says and that makes it a "violent" religion....you see, 1+ 1= 2.
Serioulsy semantics are the refuge of the weak.
The fact that Muslim have think about killing people for things in their text doesn't make them a violent religion, it's the fact that they do what their scripture says that makes it so.
Um.....sorry...no linear thought there what so ever......the text says to do it, it's adherents do what the text says and that makes it a "violent" religion....you see, 1+ 1= 2.
Serioulsy semantics are the refuge of the weak.
No semantics necessary - the fact that the text says 'kill people if x' does not makes it a violent religion, both Muslims and Jews have texts that say 'kill people if x' the difference is that most Jews now do not adhere to that, meaning it is now a non-violent religion. Many Muslims still do 'kill if x' (or atleast agree with the justification) meaning it is still a violent religion.
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