Is the war, right now, holy/predicted?

[cadet]

So, I'm reading the bible, and making a few comparisons in revelations with some stuff that's happening right now. I've also taken a small look into the Qur'an.


Quran (9:11) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.

There's also this interesting piece in the bible that talks about the devil using bible quotes to make a twisted version of the bible.


revelations (19)
His eyes are a flame of fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has names written and a name written which no one knows but he himself.
He is clothed in a garment sprinkled with blood. His name is called "The Word of God."
The armies which are in heaven followed him on white horses, clothed in white, pure, fine linen.
Out of his mouth proceeds a sharp, double-edged sword, that with it he should strike the nations. He will rule them with a rod of iron. He treads the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

He has on his garment and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." I saw an angel standing in the sun. He cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the sky, "Come! Be gathered together to the great supper of God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, and small and great." I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him who sat on the horse, and against his army.

The beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight, with which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
The rest were killed with the sword of him who sat on the horse, the sword which came forth out of his mouth. All the birds were filled with their flesh.

Just a small opinion, but doesn't this sound a little bit like it already halfway happened? Islam is a branch off of Christianity, it sound a lot like the bible, and we agree on most things, it just cuts back on a few of the major differences. (like, a relationship with Christ, the only way into heaven.)
Using the "king of kings" line there, it sounds like Islam, a twisted form of Christianity.

And there in the Qur'an, it says they shall anger a great eagle. (Think about it, what's one of the big mascots for the USA?) Some shall be devastated, while other shall be happy. cleansing the land of God/Allah, (same guy, different word, its just a language thing)

Who's to say it's not a Christians duty to go into this war? From both sides, it looks like they're talking about the same thing. The rise and fall of Islam.
the Qur'an talks about the fall of their religion, where the Bible talks about the rise and fall of the Anti-Christs religion.

Sorry if this is offensive to anyone, i just happened to stumble across both of them, and it made me think.
What are your guy's thoughts?

[jafar00]

So, I'm reading the bible, and making a few comparisons in revelations with some stuff that's happening right now. I've also taken a small look into the Qur'an.


Quran (9:11) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.

I think you need to look in an actual Qur'aan because I don't know what you have been reading there :)

Ayah 9:11 reads...


فَإِن تَابُوا وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ فَإِخْوَانُكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ ۗ وَنُفَصِّلُ الْآيَاتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.

[cadet]

I think you need to look in an actual Qur'aan because I don't know what you have been reading there :)

Ayah 9:11 reads...

Alright, stumbled upon it on the internet, wasn't exactly sure about it.
I know it's in there, not sure what passage, I'll see what I come up with.


Ahhh, i see, it was a hoax.

[jafar00]

Alright, stumbled upon it on the internet, wasn't exactly sure about it.
I know it's in there, not sure what passage, I'll see what I come up with.


Ahhh, i see, it was a hoax.

That's right. I saw that and thought to myself, "there is no mention of an eagle in the Qur'aan as far as I can remember" :)

As far as Islam is concerned, the end times will include the second coming of Jesus (as) who will silence all armies, render their weapons useless, lead the Muslims in prayer as our Imam and usher in a new era of peace and prosperity.

Cant wait :dance:

[cadet]

That's right. I saw that and thought to myself, "there is no mention of an eagle in the Qur'aan as far as I can remember" :)

As far as Islam is concerned, the end times will include the second coming of Jesus (as) who will silence all armies, render their weapons useless, lead the Muslims in prayer as our Imam and usher in a new era of peace and prosperity.

Cant wait :dance:

oh well, It still leaves the bible quotes to wonder about...

[jafar00]

oh well, It still leaves the bible quotes to wonder about...

Well, I consider the Bible to be a corrupted text so I wouldn't wonder too hard.

[CSM]

Well, I consider the Bible to be a corrupted text so I wouldn't wonder too hard.

Interesting. I consider the Qur'aan to be corrupted text, so why do you believe it? That's exactly right ... you don't give a damn what I think about that text. I do beleive that you just got to the heart of the matter (indirectly at least) in that you believe what you want to and others believe what they want. Muslims, however, are not content with that. They can and WILL kill you for not believing what they believe. Truthfully, I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else believes. When they threaten me and mine for not believing as they do however, then they had better be prepared to meet the application of the greatest amount of force I can muster when they try to execute that threat. I am fully prepared to shoot, knife, blow up and bludgeon unto death the perpetrators and the women and children they hide behind.

[Voted4Reagan]

Well, I consider the Bible to be a corrupted text so I wouldn't wonder too hard.

No more or less corrupted then the Quran.....

[fj1200]

So, I'm reading the bible, and making a few comparisons in revelations with some stuff that's happening right now.

It's always being predicted however, "you know neither the day nor the hour."

[jafar00]

Interesting. I consider the Qur'aan to be corrupted text, so why do you believe it? That's exactly right ... you don't give a damn what I think about that text. I do beleive that you just got to the heart of the matter (indirectly at least) in that you believe what you want to and others believe what they want. Muslims, however, are not content with that. They can and WILL kill you for not believing what they believe. Truthfully, I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else believes. When they threaten me and mine for not believing as they do however, then they had better be prepared to meet the application of the greatest amount of force I can muster when they try to execute that threat. I am fully prepared to shoot, knife, blow up and bludgeon unto death the perpetrators and the women and children they hide behind.

Wow chill. I only said I believe the Bible is corrupt. I didn't threaten you. The Bible was written by many people in a bunch of different languages and much of it done long after the Prophet Jesus (as) was ascended. The Qur'aan was recorded faithfully as it was revealed and great effort was expended to ensure nothing was changed. Today there is only one version of the Qur'aan and it is the same as it was 1400+ years ago. The same cannot be said of the Bible which exists in many different versions today.

[CSM]

Wow chill. I only said I believe the Bible is corrupt. I didn't threaten you. The Bible was written by many people in a bunch of different languages and much of it done long after the Prophet Jesus (as) was ascended. The Qur'aan was recorded faithfully as it was revealed and great effort was expended to ensure nothing was changed. Today there is only one version of the Qur'aan and it is the same as it was 1400+ years ago. The same cannot be said of the Bible which exists in many different versions today.


I never said or implied that YOU threatened me ... I did say and imply that ISLAMICs threaten me. I don't care one wit about the Bible or the Qur'aan. I have read both. They both have some pretty neat stories and both require some suspension of reality to be believed. Just my opinion. I do care when someone or some organization attempts to force their beliefs down my throat.

You believe whatever you like; that does not mean I have to believe what you do and I sure as hell won't behead you for it. I am not so sure you and other Muslims are reciporcal in that sentiment.

[jimnyc]

Interesting. I consider the Qur'aan to be corrupted text, so why do you believe it? That's exactly right ... you don't give a damn what I think about that text. I do beleive that you just got to the heart of the matter (indirectly at least) in that you believe what you want to and others believe what they want. Muslims, however, are not content with that. They can and WILL kill you for not believing what they believe. Truthfully, I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else believes. When they threaten me and mine for not believing as they do however, then they had better be prepared to meet the application of the greatest amount of force I can muster when they try to execute that threat. I am fully prepared to shoot, knife, blow up and bludgeon unto death the perpetrators and the women and children they hide behind.

:clap::clap::clap:

[cadet]

Wow chill. I only said I believe the Bible is corrupt. I didn't threaten you. The Bible was written by many people in a bunch of different languages and much of it done long after the Prophet Jesus (as) was ascended. The Qur'aan was recorded faithfully as it was revealed and great effort was expended to ensure nothing was changed. Today there is only one version of the Qur'aan and it is the same as it was 1400+ years ago. The same cannot be said of the Bible which exists in many different versions today.

The different versions are all different translations. Mainly because we have so many words for a few of theirs.
Spanish to English for example, get's very nutty.

We have so many types so you can get a better idea of what was actually being convaid. In fact, the bible i have has all the different translations to certain words.

Also, have you heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? All old, a bunch of biblical manuscripts, that fit perfectly with what we have today in our bible.

[Voted4Reagan]

The different versions are all different translations. Mainly because we have so many words for a few of theirs.
Spanish to English for example, get's very nutty.

We have so many types so you can get a better idea of what was actually being convaid. In fact, the bible i have has all the different translations to certain words.

Also, have you heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? All old, a bunch of biblical manuscripts, that fit perfectly with what we have today in our bible.


What Jafar will NEVER admit is that the all our current religious texts are corrupt in the sense that they were all WRITTEN BY MEN.

The Quran was not directly written by Allah

The Bible was not written by God

The Torah/Talmud were not written by G-D/Moshiach

therefore.... ALL OF THEM ARE EQUAL in their imperfection.

[Thunderknuckles]

The different versions are all different translations. Mainly because we have so many words for a few of theirs.
Spanish to English for example, get's very nutty. .
Not quite. It goes further. Take for example the Catholic Bible, it contains books that are not in the standard KJV bible and are considered apocryphal by other denominations.


What Jafar will NEVER admit is that the all our current religious texts are corrupt in the sense that they were all WRITTEN BY MEN.

The Quran was not directly written by Allah

The Bible was not written by God

The Torah/Talmud were not written by G-D/Moshiach
ALL OF THEM ARE EQUAL in their imperfection.

I think Jafar has a valid point regarding the Bible being corrupted. The content of the Bible has changed over time and all of its content was decided upon by men who validated their decisions based upon writings they thought were inspired by God and those that weren't. I don't necessarily agree with all of their decisions.
I also believe the same is true for the Quran. I do not believe it is the exact word of God handed to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. I believe it was also written by man and as such I ultimately agree with V4R on this topic. All sacred texts are imperfect in my opinion.

[jimnyc]

I think Jafar has a valid point regarding the Bible being corrupted. The content of the Bible has changed over time and all of its content was decided upon by men who validated their decisions based upon writings they thought were inspired by God and those that weren't. I don't necessarily agree with all of their decisions.
I also believe the same is true for the Quran. I do not believe it is the exact word of God handed to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. I believe it was also written by man and as such I ultimately agree with V4R on this topic. All sacred texts are imperfect in my opinion.

I admire your honesty and looking at all the religions equally, and admitting that they are written by man and can be "corrupted". Good luck in finding a Muslim to have a similar POV. I had this exact debate with my friends, and they consider the bible to be all screwed up and written by man, and since written by man, the Quran is superior as it's the word of Allah.

I brought up 666 based on a movie to a Muslim friend. He didn't know what 666 was about and the superstition behind it, and how it makes for good movies and such. I explained it all to him, that it was to some considered "the number of the beast". Him, and his brother, are very adamant that it can't even remotely be true since it's not in the Quran.

[Thunderknuckles]

I admire your honesty and looking at all the religions equally, and admitting that they are written by man and can be "corrupted". Good luck in finding a Muslim to have a similar POV. I had this exact debate with my friends, and they consider the bible to be all screwed up and written by man, and since written by man, the Quran is superior as it's the word of Allah.

I brought up 666 based on a movie to a Muslim friend. He didn't know what 666 was about and the superstition behind it, and how it makes for good movies and such. I explained it all to him, that it was to some considered "the number of the beast". Him, and his brother, are very adamant that it can't even remotely be true since it's not in the Quran.
Yep. I can understand exactly why Muslims feel the way they do about the Quran. Looking at Christianity during the first few centuries following the death of Jesus, it was a mess. You had several sects running around with varying texts of what they believed was the inspired word of God and the only thing anyone could agree on was that Jesus was Christ.

Along comes Muhammad and says here is the true word of God handed to me by Gabriel. No incongruity, no discrepancy, here you go.
It was so inspirational that Muslims spent the next five centuries "persuading" Persia and all of Christendom to accept it :p

[Noir]

Yep. I can understand exactly why Muslims feel the way they do about the Quran. Looking at Christianity during the first few centuries following the death of Jesus, it was a mess. You had several sects running around with varying texts of what they believed was the inspired word of God and the only thing anyone could agree on was that Jesus was Christ.

Along comes Muhammad and says here is the true word of God handed to me by Gabriel. No incongruity, no discrepancy, here you go.
It was so inspirational that Muslims spent the next five centuries "persuading" Persia and all of Christendom to accept it :p

And it's still going on! Only a few decades ago some convicted fraudster stumbled upon gods true words, written on golden plates that some angel helped him decipher luckily those that follow that religion aren't the 'we'll kill you I you don't believe us' type of idiots, moreso the 'harmless and occasionally racist' type of idiots.

[cadet]

Not quite. It goes further. Take for example the Catholic Bible, it contains books that are not in the standard KJV bible and are considered apocryphal by other denominations.

Ok, if you do your research, the bible is not only what's in the most well known book, the bible is a composition of some of the texts we have. There's a room full of stories, some just happened to get into the book. I would love to get to read a few of them one day.

[Noir]

Ok, if you do your research, the bible is not only what's in the most well known book, the bible is a composition of some of the texts we have. There's a room full of stories, some just happened to get into the book. I would love to get to read a few of them one day.

Sadly the only way we will ever get our hands on such texts would include the compete capitulation of the Catholic Church, which ain't gonna be anytime soon.
Or if someone on the inside leaks it's out...

[cadet]

Sadly the only way we will ever get our hands on such texts would include the compete capitulation of the Catholic Church, which ain't gonna be anytime soon.
Or if someone on the inside leaks it's out...

That would be awesome...

[Roo]

Well, I consider the Bible to be a corrupted text so I wouldn't wonder too hard.

S'ok, thats how we feel about the Koran.

[Noir]

That would be awesome...

If I hada had the forethought I'd be working my way through the priesthood now.

[Thunderknuckles]

Sadly the only way we will ever get our hands on such texts would include the compete capitulation of the Catholic Church, which ain't gonna be anytime soon.
Or if someone on the inside leaks it's out...
What texts are we talking about? There have been plenty of texts discovered that are not in the Bible and can be freely read on the internet.

[Noir]

What texts are we talking about? There have been plenty of texts discovered that are not in the Bible and can be freely read on the internet.

Of the 600 original books of the bible only around half are accessible.
Now, in fairness, my knowledge of this comes from watching a tv documentary, but it was a Christian viewpoint one, so I have no reason to believe they'd be lying.

[Thunderknuckles]

Of the 600 original books of the bible only around half are accessible.
Now, in fairness, my knowledge of this comes from watching a tv documentary, but it was a Christian viewpoint one, so I have no reason to believe they'd be lying.
I'll have to dig a little deeper myself then. I am unaware of any sacred texts being secretly held by the Catholic Church away from the public.

To Cadet or anyone else interested:
Two apocryphal texts that I find very fascinating are the Epistle/Gospel of Pilate and the Book of Enoch.
The texts of Pilate give a very interesting account of events from the viewpoint of Pontius Pilate. They also tell the tell of his death and the difficulties of his many burials :laugh:. There are a number of western European cities that claim to be the burial site of Pilate and these texts explain why.

The Book of Enoch by far is the most fascinating to me. As you know Enoch never died but ascended directly to Heaven where God gave him knowledge of all things. His account of how the universe was created, the fallen Angels, their names and what they taught humanity, and his description of the various levels and contents of Heaven are intriguing.

Keep in mind these are not considered the inspired word of God so approach them as such.

Sorry if I've taken the thread a bit off track. Anyone interested in discussing such texts further under the Religion forum?
Not a debate, mind you, about what is true or not. Just an honest discussion about verses you find compelling and why.
I'd certainly like to pick Jafar's brain on a number of topics.

[cadet]

I'll have to dig a little deeper myself then. I am unaware of any sacred texts being secretly held by the Catholic Church away from the public.

To Cadet or anyone else interested:
Two apocryphal texts that I find very fascinating are the Epistle/Gospel of Pilate and the Book of Enoch.
The texts of Pilate give a very interesting account of events from the viewpoint of Pontius Pilate. They also tell the tell of his death and the difficulties of his many burials :laugh:. There are a number of western European cities that claim to be the burial site of Pilate and these texts explain why.

The Book of Enoch by far is the most fascinating to me. As you know Enoch never died but ascended directly to Heaven where God gave him knowledge of all things. His account of how the universe was created, the fallen Angels, their names and what they taught humanity, and his description of the various levels and contents of Heaven are intriguing.

Keep in mind these are not considered the inspired word of God so approach them as such.

Sorry if I've taken the thread a bit off track. Anyone interested in discussing such texts further under the Religion forum?
Not a debate, mind you, about what is true or not. Just an honest discussion about verses you find compelling and why.
I'd certainly like to pick Jafar's brain on a number of topics.

Holy crap, i'm siting on chapter 10 so far of the Book of Enoch, and I'm getting explinations of why noah had to build the arc. Fallen angels names, Giants, demi-gods, and something very similar to the middle ages. This is... This is intresting...

[Thunderknuckles]

Holy crap, i'm siting on chapter 10 so far of the Book of Enoch, and I'm getting explinations of why noah had to build the arc. Fallen angels names, Giants, demi-gods, and something very similar to the middle ages. This is... This is intresting...

Nice! Did you happen to be reading that when I posted? The account of the Nephilim (giants) is cool. Have you you read about Enoch's account of the creation of the universe? It bears a remarkable similarity to our current understanding, aside from the earth being created before the Sun

[cadet]

Nice! Did you happen to be reading that when I posted? The account of the Nephilim (giants) is cool. Have you you read about Enoch's account of the creation of the universe? It bears a remarkable similarity to our current understanding, aside from the earth being created before the Sun

I didn't even know about this book until you posted it. It's amazing reading his account on how things work. "Rivers of liquid fire pouring into the sea." Volcano...

I'd read a little in Genesis about angles mating with mortals, but i didn't realize that it worked its way into the first judgment day. (the flood.) The giants intrigue me, and it explains the older myths in books of giants being magical and destroying everything.

Half of this is making me want to go search for the areas on earth he's describing.

[cadet]

I'm not understanding what he means by portals. Doors? Teleporting? bad translation?

I don't think he'd understand the concept of teleporting.

[Nukeman]

As you read the Book of Enoch you will understand WHY the church doesn't want it out there. It really is/can be disturbing to some. There are a number of "books' that should not be hidden away and should be available to all.....