Arab Spring run amok: 'Brotherhood' starts crucifixions

[jimnyc]

I hope this is isolated and not a sign of things to come around Egypt.


Opponents of Egypt's Muslim president executed 'naked on trees'The Arab Spring takeover of Egypt by the Muslim Brotherhood has run amok, with reports from several different media agencies that the radical Muslims have begun crucifying opponents of newly installed President Mohammed Morsi.

Middle East media confirm that during a recent rampage, Muslim Brotherhood operatives “crucified those opposing Egyptian President Muhammad Morsi naked on trees in front of the presidential palace while abusing others.”

Raymond Ibrahim, a fellow with the Middle East Forum and the Investigative Project on Terrorism, said the crucifixions are the product of who the Middle Eastern media call “partisans.”

“Arabic media call them ‘supporters,’ ‘followers’ and ‘partisans’ of the Muslim Brotherhood,” Ibraham said.

Ibrahim also says the victims can be anyone, including Egyptian Christians.

“It’s anyone who is resisting the new government,” Ibrahim said. “In this particular case, the people attacked and crucified were secular protesters upset because of Morsi’s hostile campaign against the media, especially of Tawfik Okasha, who was constantly exposing him on his station, until Morsi shut him down.”

Ibrahim said extra brutality is reserved for Christians, but the crucifixions are because of Islamic doctrine and are required by the Quran. The time and other details about the crucifixions were not readily available.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/arab-spring-run-amok-brotherhood-starts-crucifixions/

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I hope this is isolated and not a sign of things to come around Egypt.



http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/arab-spring-run-amok-brotherhood-starts-crucifixions/

What "ARAB SPRING"!!??
The entire thing was a planned muslim takeover to try to create that longed for Caliphate.
Every country attacked and rule overthrown was one in which a dictaor ruled for self and not for Allah!
Only one nation that was ruled by Islamist theocracy had a problem and that was Iran, the problem was quickly put down because it received ZERO help from us or our allies. Obama supported and helped all other revolts except -here is the key- EXCEPT THE ONLY ONE SEEKING TO OVERTHROW A MUSLIM THEOCRACY!!
If a person can not read the tea leaves on that they are stupid as hell. , no exceptions on that IMHO.-Tyr

[logroller]

Wasn't Jesus crucified long before Islam, the Quran and the caliphate?
Seems odd this new nation of Islam, hellbent on persecution, has not invented any new motivation nor method. Why can they just appeal to the global powers for dispensation of justice and self-rule... Or have they, only to be rebuffed?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Wasn't Jesus crucified long before Islam, the Quran and the caliphate?
Seems odd this new nation of Islam, hellbent on persecution, has not invented any new motivation nor method. Why can they just appeal to the global powers for dispensation of justice and self-rule... Or have they, only to be rebuffed?

They recognise no authority of man over that of Allah. And the Koran is composed of the direct words of Allah spoken to mohamboy for them to only blindly obey! A bigger sect of brainwashed fanatical dullards you'll never meet. Remember they totally reject the divinity of Christ! Their cult/religion believes that man saves himself by total and absolute blind obedience. That blind and brutal obedience requires the murder of all that do not convert! Such people can not be reached by logic, reason or facts...-Tyr

[logroller]

They recognise no authority of man over that of Allah. And the Koran is composed of the direct words of Allah spoken to mohamboy for them to only blindly obey! A bigger sect of brainwashed fanatical dullards you'll never meet. Remember they totally reject the divinity of Christ! Their cult/religion believes that man saves himself by total and absolute blind obedience. That blind and brutal obedience requires the murder of all that do not convert! Such people can not be reached by logic, reason or facts...-Tyr

Unless you recognize more than one God, Allah is God. Do you recognize an authority of man over that of God? Jews reject the divinity of Christ too; iirc, He was crucified for His divine claims. Does the bible include the word of God...and aren't we to obey His word? In Iran, an Islamic theocracy, there are Christians, persecuted admittedly, (same as in Jordan and a host of other states), yet they exist, as yet, unmurdered. In Kosovo, Catholics and Muslims alike were murdered by the protestant orthodoxy. Gandhi, himself a Hindu and champion of pacifism, was murdered for his sympathetic views towards Muslims. That and his world views of communalism, mutual rule by religious doctrine. Im not saying that we should be ruled by theocracy, but one shouldn't malign one religion's rule as violent when no religion or political system is exempt from violent tendencies. Violence is an inherent tendency of man-- so naturally, man's creations are likewise afflicted.

[taft2012]

one shouldn't malign one religion's rule as violent when no religion or political system is exempt from violent tendencies

I think its quite apparent there are degrees involved here.

Muslims have no fear of living in or visiting Christian nations, but the opposite is certainly not true for non-Muslims.

I don't think that is at all disputable.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Unless you recognize more than one God, Allah is God. Do you recognize an authority of man over that of God? Jews reject the divinity of Christ too; iirc, He was crucified for His divine claims. Does the bible include the word of God...and aren't we to obey His word? In Iran, an Islamic theocracy, there are Christians, persecuted admittedly, (same as in Jordan and a host of other states), yet they exist, as yet, unmurdered. In Kosovo, Catholics and Muslims alike were murdered by the protestant orthodoxy. Gandhi, himself a Hindu and champion of pacifism, was murdered for his sympathetic views towards Muslims. That and his world views of communalism, mutual rule by religious doctrine. Im not saying that we should be ruled by theocracy, but one shouldn't malign one religion's rule as violent when no religion or political system is exempt from violent tendencies. Violence is an inherent tendency of man-- so naturally, man's creations are likewise afflicted.

No, Allah is their word for their God, not the God of Abraham . Not the Father of Jesus Christ. Sure they believe in one God, so what. It is the instructions that according to thier holy book(Koran) that cause them to see all non-believers to be lesser human beings and if not converted only worthy of having their heads lopped off or else to be used as slaves. Islam still actively believes in slavery. They actively subjegate and persecute Christians and seek to FORCE the entire world to bow to Allah and you want to treat Islam as just another religion!??
What other religion is that violent and has that primary goal that it will happily use FORCE to accomplish?-Tyr

[jafar00]

I hope this is isolated and not a sign of things to come around Egypt.



http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/arab-spring-run-amok-brotherhood-starts-crucifixions/

This is total BS is what it is. I drove past the Presidential Palace the other day. No naked people in the trees.

What kind of drugs are people on to make this stuff up?

[logroller]

I think its quite apparent there are degrees involved here.

Muslims have no fear of living in or visiting Christian nations, but the opposite is certainly not true for non-Muslims.

I don't think that is at all disputable.
I won't dispute it, but I would add there are likely a number of Muslims, living in Muslim countries, who fear for their safety. So I don't think it's constructive to malign Islam for for what amounts to retaliatory factions of an oppressed populace.

No, Allah is their word for their God, not the God of Abraham . Not the Father of Jesus Christ. Sure they believe in one God, so what. It is the instructions that according to thier holy book(Koran) that cause them to see all non-believers to be lesser human beings and if not converted only worthy of having their heads lopped off or else to be used as slaves. Islam still actively believes in slavery. They actively subjegate and persecute Christians and seek to FORCE the entire world to bow to Allah and you want to treat Islam as just another religion!??
What other religion is that violent and has that primary goal that it will happily use FORCE to accomplish?-Tyr

Look I don't know what your issue is Islam, but there are over billion Muslims and not all of them are hellbent on persecuting Christians. I mean, the KKK was Protestant sect that persecuted African Americans, but that doesn't mean all Protestants did. Is the middle east a fertile crescent of Islamic beliefs, you bet. Do they take kindly to western influence, not in the least. Does that make for a holy war... Only if you ascribe to the factionism. I don't want to go to the middle east; do you?


This is total BS is what it is. I drove past the Presidential Palace the other day. No naked people in the trees.

What kind of drugs are people on to make this stuff up?
It's certainly not an impossibility. I know some Arab Christians who left Jordan to escape persecution. Obviously they weren't killed for their beliefs, but they were treated as second class citizens.

[taft2012]

I won't dispute it, but I would add there are likely a number of Muslims, living in Muslim countries, who fear for their safety. So I don't think it's constructive to malign Islam for for what amounts to retaliatory factions of an oppressed populace.


Let's discuss "oppressed" populaces:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2190935/Downs-syndrome-girl-11-faces-death-penalty-desecrating-Koran-Pakistan.html?ito=feeds-newsxml



'Down's syndrome girl', 11, faces death penalty for desecrating Koran in Pakistan

Furious mobs surround the home of 'mentally disabled' Christian girl
She faces execution under Pakistan's controversial blasphemy laws

By Rick Dewsbury

PUBLISHED: 05:51 EST, 20 August 2012 | UPDATED: 07:50 EST, 20 August 2012

An 11-year-old girl thought to suffer from Down's Syndrome is facing the death penalty in Pakistan for apparently burning pages from the Koran.

Furious mobs of Muslim locals gathered outside the home of Christian girl Rifta Masih after she was found with charred pages of the Islamic holy book.

She was arrested and has been held in custody for the last 14 days under Pakistan’s controversial blasphemy laws. A conviction could see her executed.

A Pakistani police officer, Zabi Ullah, said today that the girl was arrested after hundreds of neighbors gathered outside her house in Mehrabadi, a poor outlying district of the capital, Islamabad.

He said the police took the girl to the police station, and that she’s been held for 14 days while authorities investigate.

‘About 500-600 people had gathered outside her house in Islamabad, and they were very emotional, angry and they might have harmed her if we had not quickly reacted,’ he said.

‘Some Muslims from the area claim the girl had burned pages of the Koran, and we are investigating, and we have not reached any conclusion,’ he said.

Another police official, Qasim Niazi, said when the girl was brought to the police station she had a shopping bag that contained various religious and Arabic-language papers that had been partly burned but no Koran.

Officers added that the matter could be dropped once the investigation is completed and the atmosphere is defused, saying there was ‘nothing much to the case.’ He did not want to be identified due to the sensitivity of the case.

Meanwhile, Pakistan's president Asif Ali Zardari said he had 'taken notice' of the reports of the arrest and asked Pakistan's interior ministry to present a report to him.

There were varying reports on the girl’s age and whether she suffered from Down's Syndrome. Ullah said she was 16 while other officials have said she was either 12 or 11. Niazi said that when the girl was brought to the police station she was scared and unable to speak normally, but he did not know whether she suffered from mental health issues.

The arrest of the girl and outrage among the local community demonstrates the deep emotion that suspected blasphemy cases can evoke in this conservative Muslim country, where rising extremism often means religious minorities live in fear of persecution.
Sacred: A Pakistani Muslim woman holds up a copy of the Islamic holy text the Koran

Sacred: A Pakistani Muslim woman holds up a copy of the Islamic holy text the Koran

Christians often live in fear that they will be accused of blasphemy, and many critics say the legislation is sometimes used to settle scores.

Angry mobs have been known to sometimes take the law into their own hands and beat or kill people who are accused of violating the blasphemy laws. In July, thousands of people dragged a Pakistani man accused of desecrating the Koran from a police station in the central Pakistani city of Bahawalpur, beat him to death and then set his body on fire.

And there were furious protests earlier this year after U.S. troops were accused of burning the Koran. Effigies of Barack Obama were burned in the street amid demands for an apology.

Attempts to revoke or alter the blasphemy laws have been met with violent opposition, however.

Last year, two prominent Pakistani political figures who spoke out against the laws were killed, in attacks that raised concerns about the rise of religious extremism in Pakistan.

Liberal politician Salman Taseer was shot and killed by one of his own guards in January 2011, and in March 2011, militants gunned down Shahbaz Bhatti, the only Christian minister in Pakistan’s Cabinet.

A spokesperson for Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari, Farhatullah Babar, said the president has ‘serious note’ of reports of the girl’s arrest and has asked the Interior Ministry to look into the case.

[taft2012]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/pakistani-christians-fearing-backlash-flee-community-after-girl-accused-of-blasphemy/2012/08/20/d3b23c9a-eae3-11e1-866f-60a00f604425_story.html



Pakistani Christians, fearing backlash, flee community after girl is accused of blasphemy

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Everyone in the teeming, tense community of Muslims and Christians just outside Islamabad seems to have a different story about the young girl and the Koran.

The 12-year-old Christian deliberately burned the Muslim holy book, some say. No, she innocently put pages from a non-sacred teaching text into the trash, say others, and nothing was burned. Still another version holds that an older Muslim boy planted pages of the Koran for the cleaning girl to find and then leveled the accusation of desecration because she had spurned him.

Amid the conflicting claims, this much is certain: As many as 600 Christians have fled their colony bordering the capital, fearing for their lives, officials said, after a mob last week called for the child to be burned to death as a blasphemer.

The girl, who authorities have described as mentally challenged, sits in jail in Rawalpindi, charged by police with blasphemy, while her family has been put in federal protective custody. The evidence against her is muddled at best, but police said they arrested her in part to assuage the mob and also because they knew she would be safer in jail.

“The one who burned the Koran should be burned,” said Shaukhat Ali, an assistant at the local mosque, expressing a sentiment shared by many Muslims in the community.

Under Pakistani law, those found guilty of defaming the Islamic prophet Muhammad face the death penalty, while defiling the Koran can bring a life sentence. The case of the girl is the fourth in recent months to alarm human rights advocates, who say the law is frequently used to persecute Christians and also has been unfairly applied to the mentally ill — including some Muslims.

Liberal-to-moderate Pakistanis see the rise in blasphemy allegations as a reflection of a dangerous ascent of extremism and anti-Western sentiment throughout society.

“Most of the people consider the Christians here to represent the West,” said Paul Bhatti, who heads the Ministry of National Harmony — a post created after his younger brother, Shahbaz Bhatti, a Catholic and minority affairs minister, was assassinated last year by the Pakistani Taliban for advocating reform of the blasphemy laws.

Shahbaz Bhatti was the second prominent politician killed in 2011 for his opposition to the laws: Salman Taseer, the governor of Punjab province, was gunned down by a member of his security retinue who immediately confessed and was widely celebrated in Pakistan for defending Islam.

Christians are easy targets for false claims by accusers with ulterior motives. Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari took “serious note” of the girl’s arrest, said a spokesman, who quoted him as saying, “Blasphemy by anyone cannot be condoned, but no one will be allowed to misuse the blasphemy law for settling personal scores.”

In an interview Sunday night at his heavily guarded office in Islamabad, Bhatti said such allegations are usually leveled against the poor and the powerless. The 50-year-old physician said he has drawn no firm conclusions about the girl’s case but knows one thing: Even if cleared, she and her family can never return to their home.

“If she is not guilty, some can understand and they can forgive,” he said. “But there are people who just want to have death.”

The slum where the 12-year-old lived is typical of other desperately poor Christian enclaves in and around the comparatively prosperous capital. Many Christians live in lean-tos and toil as trash pickers or wood scavengers.

The incident involving the girl happened Thursday afternoon, evidently while she was gathering trash — but beyond that, everything is in dispute. Some locals claim to have witnessed her and her mother burning the entire Koran.

But Tahir Muhammad, a 30-year-old shop owner and landlord, said the girl found just one page of the holy book while cleaning a house, mixed it with other papers and burned it.

A 10-year-old neighborhood girl said she saw the whole thing and took the ashes to the mosque — with no pages of the Koran extant. In interviews Sunday, two men at the mosque said that only ashes remained and that the imam mixed in some pages himself before turning over the “evidence” to police.

“Somebody must be confused when they said pages were mixed in — no such thing happened,” Imam Hafiz Muhammad Zubair said Monday. He said community leaders decided to turn the girl and her mother over to police for their safety.

“Both the women confessed to us that they had indeed burned the Koran,” he said.

Various tellings of the incident spread Friday to other mosques. Some outside religious leaders and locals encouraged Muslims to converge on the Christian enclave, but others counseled restraint, said Bhatti, who talked with several clerics.

An estimated 500 to 1,000 Muslims, including many outsiders, turned out Friday to demand punishment for the alleged blasphemer, blocking a nearby highway and burning tires. The mob also menaced police.

Other Muslims, who said they count Christians among their friends, said they oppose vigilantism. But, they said, if the girl is found guilty, the Christians must leave for good.

“The people here are not extremists,” said Asad Riaz, a worshiper in his late 20s who was at the mosque Sunday evening, “but this has provoked them.”

The imam sounded a note of conciliation, but with conditions. “It isn’t really those poor folks’ fault,” Zubair said, “but we will wait and see what the official verdict against her is — and if they are guilty, then decide accordingly.”

Over the weekend, Bhatti said, hundreds of residents of the Christian enclave began to migrate to other colonies in Islamabad, where they have remained. Authorities said they could not guarantee their safety if they return.

Some Christians who stayed in the area said shopkeepers are refusing to sell them food and have issued threats.

“They said they will burn our house down if we don’t leave,” said a 17-year-old who lived near the accused girl’s family. “They are also saying that since a woman burned the Koran, they will come after our women now.”

He and his cousin, perched nervously on a motorbike, would soon be migrating to Islamabad, too, they said, before taking off into the night.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Let's discuss "oppressed" populaces:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2190935/Downs-syndrome-girl-11-faces-death-penalty-desecrating-Koran-Pakistan.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

This is Islam, executed for mistreating a damn book! Often the accused are dragged into the street either beaten or burned to death over a freaking book. Who can not or will not call these people freaking savages that they themselves should be dealt with severely? Why all this protecting of these savages? Fear/ Yes thats it, most Americans fear them. All you sheep, I hope your fear brings its just reward! Living here where we are protected and still so many fear these lousy barbarians! Its sickening ....-Tyr

[abso]

I hope this is isolated and not a sign of things to come around Egypt.



http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/arab-spring-run-amok-brotherhood-starts-crucifixions/

Never Happened ;)

[abso]

about Tawfik Okasha, the one who was mentioned in the article, the one who Raymond Ibrahim said that he was arrested and had his station shut because he exposed the president, Tawfik Okasha misunderstood the freedom of speech, he continually insulted everyone in the government, he even called people to revolt against the elected president and kill him, his station was warned times before for the insults against government officials and other people, those warnings was even before Morsi was elected president, the station never cared and ignored all the warnings, finally it was shutdown for 1 month as a warning, and tawfik okasha was arrested.

[jimnyc]

Never Happened ;)

I'm glad you added a smiley, so we know you acknowledge this crap happens over there. It's a disgrace, and one of the reasons I didn't want to see these scumbags have anywhere near any type of control over there. But hell, this isn't even the MB doing this shit, just those who support them. I'm just glad I don't have to live in such an environment.

[abso]

I'm glad you added a smiley, so we know you acknowledge this crap happens over there. It's a disgrace, and one of the reasons I didn't want to see these scumbags have anywhere near any type of control over there. But hell, this isn't even the MB doing this shit, just those who support them. I'm just glad I don't have to live in such an environment.

what !!!!

Jim, it really never happened, i was just smiling because its really funny that some people can write such lies, none can do such thing specially near the presidential palace, there is a whole army there called the "Republican Guard Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Guard_(Egypt))" to secure the palace, and none can do such thing around them, they will be arrested in few seconds.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

what !!!!

Jim, it really never happened, i was just smiling because its really funny that some people can write such lies, none can do such thing specially near the presidential palace, there is a whole army there called the "Republican Guard Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Guard_(Egypt))" to secure the palace, and none can do such thing around them, they will be arrested in few seconds.

Why? Are the Republican Guards not muslims also? How often are those guilty of stoning victims or dragging them out into the street to beat or burn them to death arrested? I've never came across documentation of such arrests of any of those mob murdering scum regardless of the mob size large or small.-Tyr

[jimnyc]

what !!!!

Jim, it really never happened, i was just smiling because its really funny that some people can write such lies, none can do such thing specially near the presidential palace, there is a whole army there called the "Republican Guard Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Guard_%28Egypt%29)" to secure the palace, and none can do such thing around them, they will be arrested in few seconds.

Deny, deny deny. Why would multiple news agencies lie about this? And I'm not talking about things happening near the palace, but rather by Morsi supporters throughout the nation, to possibly those who stand against the MB. I'm sure more and more truth will come out as things progress


“Crucifixion is a hadd punishment, stipulated in the Quran, Sura 5:33, and therefore an obligatory part of Shariah,” Lopez said. “It’s been a traditional punishment within Islam since the beginning

Not to mention it appears to conform to traditional Islamic punishment, so it hardly seems like a stretch to me.

And this is how it started with the discussion about the abuse of women in Egypt, that it didn't happen. Then it was changed to only a small amount. Then we were told they weren't "real" Muslims. Then the truth just kept coming and coming, and the amount of abuse on women there simply couldn't be denied.

"Funny that people can write such lies" - Crap, that sounds a lot like Baghdad Bob who liked to deny everything and anything. Everything is somehow a lie until irrefutable proof is given, and even then, it just turns into excuses and they aren't real Muslims. Sad really.

[logroller]

Let's discuss "oppressed" populaces:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2190935/Downs-syndrome-girl-11-faces-death-penalty-desecrating-Koran-Pakistan.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

stupid law is stupid law. I feel the same away about Assange's exposé of government secrets. But the law is the law. Its convenient how people think the law of their land is so mighty and the laws of other's savage; yet the authorities are not bound by the law at all. Its farcical, IMO. Don't get me wrong, there are many good, diligent government officials, (just like there are many good Muslims), but the bad apple and all.

[abso]

Deny, deny deny. Why would multiple news agencies lie about this? And I'm not talking about things happening near the palace, but rather by Morsi supporters throughout the nation, to possibly those who stand against the MB. I'm sure more and more truth will come out as things progress



Not to mention it appears to conform to traditional Islamic punishment, so it hardly seems like a stretch to me.


And this is how it started with the discussion about the abuse of women in Egypt, that it didn't happen. Then it was changed to only a small amount. Then we were told they weren't "real" Muslims. Then the truth just kept coming and coming, and the amount of abuse on women there simply couldn't be denied.

"Funny that people can write such lies" - Crap, that sounds a lot like Baghdad Bob who liked to deny everything and anything. Everything is somehow a lie until irrefutable proof is given, and even then, it just turns into excuses and they aren't real Muslims. Sad really.

what multiple news agencies you are talking about, can you add the links for such agencies ?

and i never lie or deny, if you want to believe what you read, its your choice, but i live only 10 minutes away from the palace, and i go there very often, and i never read about such attacks, and if they happened, they would be posted with pictures on Facebook in just 5 or 10 minutes after they happen, and no single news agency in Egypt posted about such attacks, not the ones supporting the president (very few) or the ones against him (alot).

again Jim, you just want to believe what indicates anything wrong about Islam, people always tend to believe what they want to believe, if you think of me as a credible source then you will believe me, but if you think that this news agency which probably does not have any reporter in Egypt in the first place, and its news coming from some Christians who want to incite hatred against Islam, then go ahead and believe what makes you satisfied, but i repeat what i said, "NEVER HAPPENED"

[abso]

Why? Are the Republican Guards not muslims also? How often are those guilty of stoning victims or dragging them out into the street to beat or burn them to death arrested? I've never came across documentation of such arrests of any of those mob murdering scum regardless of the mob size large or small.-Tyr

as i said, there was no Mobs and there was no crucifixions,that NEVER HAPPENED

[abso]

Jim, you really irritate me with the way you tend to believe any thing wrong written about Islam without even thinking about it for a second or leaving a single shred of doubt that maybe, just maybe, all you read was lies to make you hate Islam and Muslims. :poke:

[abso]

and also, Tawfik Okasha, the news station owner whom Raymond Ibrahim defends in the article you posted, have been calling all the revolution figures such as Wael Ghoniem and Mohamed Baradei and even the Muslim Brotherhood as American agents who are bribed by USA to destroy Egypt ;)

and by the way, this was the least lunatic thing he has ever said since the revolution, people usually watch him to laugh, he is more like a comedian than a news reporter.


Most of Al Fara'een's air time, aside from Fox News-like patriotism and first-anti-25 Jan-then-pro-SCAF propaganda, consists of the Okasha addressing its nonexistent constituency in the informal and (to use its own word) “mastaba” manner of a well-to-do fellah dictating opinions to a loving, presumably equally non-human gathering of villagers (there is evidence that such creatures do exist, but let's hope they are no majority). Unlike its oily, accent-less pre-25 Jan image — the one in which it is known to have said, to the word, "I hold President Mubarak sacred" — the Okasha's present, mastaba-bound demeanour is so utterly like that of a wicked old peasant woman, one with neither the upbringing nor the intelligence to maintain even a veneer of respectability, that it tends to induce laughter more than any other response. But aside from the Okasha being a comic diversion — people laugh at faeces, after all, precisely because it is nauseating — the Okasha poses distressing questions about dignity, reality and the fellahin.


I first heard of Al Fara'een from a taxi driver with a Limbi-like speech impediment (El Limbi being comedian Mohammad Saad's alterego, a slum-residing criminal retard). He was explaining to me how it had been proven that Wael Ghoneim, the earliest hero of the revolution, was an American agent bent on destroying the country. Not only was Ghoneim Palestinian-Lebanese and Iranian (i.e. Islamist), he was also Communist, Zionist and Masonic; the so called revolution he and his fellow agents had started was nothing but a global conspiracy to spread chaos, bring over the Americans (as in Iraq), split up the country… "Where did you find out about this?" I asked. "But where else," he coughed, with a worryingly self-assured grin. "Al Fara'een Channel!"


http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/4/0/31509/Opinion/Tawfik-Okasha-and-the-amazingly-appalling-atrociou.aspx

[jimnyc]

Jim, you really irritate me with the way you tend to believe any thing wrong written about Islam without even thinking about it for a second or leaving a single shred of doubt that maybe, just maybe, all you read was lies to make you hate Islam and Muslims. :poke:

I really don't give a flying fuck, or those that agree with you by ignorantly thanking your ignorant posts! You keep going on about the palace and what not, and I never stated anything about these things happening at the palace or by the government/MB.

And you never deny? When I told you last year that there were very serious issues with the abuse of women in Egypt, you didn't deny this for MANY posts? You outright stated then as well that it doesn't happen.

No matter how big you make your lettering, or how bold, it really doesn't matter. Have you been through then entire population of Egypt throughout the past month, literally, and can definitively state certain things never happened?

As for sources, do some simple searches on Google, it's all over the place out there. But you have problems reading this one article, continuing on and on about the leaders and the palace, when the very first paragraph of the article makes it clear that it is opponents and supporters, not anything to do with the palace.

And another link of lies - http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/08/16/muslim-brotherhood-crucifies-opponents-attacks-secular-media/

And I love this part:


Far from condemning these terrorists, Al Azhar, Egypt’s most authoritative Islamic institution, has just issued a fatwa (http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/al-azhar-cleric-fighting-anti-brotherhood-demonstrators-obligatory-0) calling for more violence and oppression, saying that “fighting participants in anti-Muslim Brotherhood demonstrations planned for 24 August is a religious obligation.”

I can post video proof of atrocities committed in Egypt and you would still deny. I post articles of women being interviewed and telling of the abuse they endure from men and you deny.

When people do despicable things, everyone in the world, regardless of race or religion, should condemn the acts. But far too many muslims go into deny mode as opposed to condemning certain acts and working to make things better. I'm sure images or videos will eventually surface, and I'll post them for you to deny too! :lol:

[jimnyc]

** NSFW ** If police would do this kind of crap, shooting a man for suspicion of possessing marijuana, NOTHING would surprise me over there...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=ff353277c4d8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[abso]

I really don't give a flying fuck, or those that agree with you by ignorantly thanking your ignorant posts! You keep going on about the palace and what not, and I never stated anything about these things happening at the palace or by the government/MB.

And you never deny? When I told you last year that there were very serious issues with the abuse of women in Egypt, you didn't deny this for MANY posts? You outright stated then as well that it doesn't happen.

No matter how big you make your lettering, or how bold, it really doesn't matter. Have you been through then entire population of Egypt throughout the past month, literally, and can definitively state certain things never happened?

As for sources, do some simple searches on Google, it's all over the place out there. But you have problems reading this one article, continuing on and on about the leaders and the palace, when the very first paragraph of the article makes it clear that it is opponents and supporters, not anything to do with the palace.

And another link of lies - http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/08/16/muslim-brotherhood-crucifies-opponents-attacks-secular-media/

And I love this part:



I can post video proof of atrocities committed in Egypt and you would still deny. I post articles of women being interviewed and telling of the abuse they endure from men and you deny.

When people do despicable things, everyone in the world, regardless of race or religion, should condemn the acts. But far too many muslims go into deny mode as opposed to condemning certain acts and working to make things better. I'm sure images or videos will eventually surface, and I'll post them for you to deny too! :lol:

about women, i didn't deny that they are abused, i just denied the very high percentage you posted, and i also told you if you want to prove something come and see it yourself, don't just read and believe anything just because you want to hate Islam and Muslims.



from your source:
"El Balad adds that the supporters of Tawfik Okasha, another vocal critic of President Morsi—the one who widely disseminated the graphic video (http://www.raymondibrahim.com/11798/graphic-video-tunisian-muslims-slaughter-convert) of a Muslim apostate being slaughtered to cries of “Allahu Akbar”—gathered around the presidential palace, only to be surrounded by Brotherhood supporters, who “attacked them with sticks, knives, and Molotov cocktails, crucifying some of them on trees, leading to the deaths of two and the wounding of dozens.”"

and again i state, that never happened, not around the palace and not anywhere else.


and why do you tend to believe non credible sources !!!, what is this algemeiner or wnd !!!, try to use some credible sources, like CNN, BBC, Reuters, ABC or any world known news agency, you can expect me to argue with you about some lies written in a non existent news agency, anyone can design a site like that an call it a news agency, that doesn't mean we have to believe everything they write, do we ???

[jimnyc]

:lol::lol::lol: Sure thing, Baghdad Bob Denier!

[jimnyc]

about women, i didn't deny that they are abused, i just denied the very high percentage you posted, and i also told you if you want to prove something come and see it yourself, don't just read and believe anything just because you want to hate Islam and Muslims.

Sure, and I need to go to Syria to confirm that the government and their military is attacking civilians, because unless I don't, NEVER HAPPENED! LOL

And "I just want to hate Islam and Muslims". Sorry, BB Denier, my friends will disagree with you. Posting about atrocities that happen doesn't mean I hate muslims, it means I hate atrocities. I posted about an atrocity that happened here in Colorado, where a gunman shot up a theater, and condemned him - who is it that I hated there, BB Denier? Or is it perhaps I was pissed about the atrocity that happened?

You're worse than Baghdad Bob, as he was paid to do his gig and likely didn't believe what he was reporting, just doing his job.

If something purportedly happened, let's say, 200 miles south of you. Unless you were there, you have no choice but to rely on others or the media, no different than someone 5,000 miles away.

But I didn't read various reports of the same atrocities, never read about the horrors women must endure. NEVER HAPPENED! :lol: :laugh2: :lol:

[abso]

** NSFW ** If police would do this kind of crap, shooting a man for suspicion of possessing marijuana, NOTHING would surprise me over there...

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again with the lies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stop believing this stupid lies, Jim, you are not a kid, stop believing everything you read anywhere.

this video was in Sinai, the man shot is from the extremist groups in Sinai which the army and the police have launched a war against after the boarder incident in which the extremists killed 16 boarder guards two weeks ago, since then the army have entered Sinai for the first time since 1973 with tanks and armored vehicles and Apache helicopters and commandos to destroy and kill every single terrorist there, since 25 Jan revolution a lot of terrorist groups have formed in Siani and they attack and kill the police and army posts in Siani every now and then.

since the start of the "Eagle" operation, tens of officers and soldiers have died from the police and the military, so those police officers are fighting the extremists that you hate the most, and you call this "kind of crap" :rolleyes:

[abso]

Sure, and I need to go to Syria to confirm that the government and their military is attacking civilians, because unless I don't, NEVER HAPPENED! LOL

And "I just want to hate Islam and Muslims". Sorry, BB Denier, my friends will disagree with you. Posting about atrocities that happen doesn't mean I hate muslims, it means I hate atrocities. I posted about an atrocity that happened here in Colorado, where a gunman shot up a theater, and condemned him - who is it that I hated there, BB Denier? Or is it perhaps I was pissed about the atrocity that happened?

You're worse than Baghdad Bob, as he was paid to do his gig and likely didn't believe what he was reporting, just doing his job.

If something purportedly happened, let's say, 200 miles south of you. Unless you were there, you have no choice but to rely on others or the media, no different than someone 5,000 miles away.

But I didn't read various reports of the same atrocities, never read about the horrors women must endure. NEVER HAPPENED! :lol: :laugh2: :lol:

killing in syria is a different thing, this is something covered by every news paper in the world, and you can find hundreds of credible articles about that, but what you post about women abuse which i never said that they never happen come from sources with no credibility, i argue about the number and the percentage, not the abuse itself.

[jimnyc]

You and your denials are noted. Find someone else to believe the shit you're shoveling, I for one don't give a fuck. I believe the things I see with my own 2 eyes. I can post videos over and over for perhaps eternity of shit like this happening all over Egypt, only to be met with denials and continued excuses.

And I don't care about your denial of percentages either, I'll side with the women speaking out, the men admitting to their abuse & the various impartial agencies that come up with the records and numbers, like the International Red Cross, for starters. Even if, EVEN IF the numbers coming out about the abuse of women were literally cut in half - they would still beat out probably any country in the world!! Buy continue to deny all you like, and I'll continue to believe the authorities, and while you're denying, women will still continue to receive abuse. And why? Because so many deny it happens and act like it's no big deal. Sickening actually.

[abso]

You and your denials are noted. Find someone else to believe the shit you're shoveling, I for one don't give a fuck. I believe the things I see with my own 2 eyes. I can post videos over and over for perhaps eternity of shit like this happening all over Egypt, only to be met with denials and continued excuses.

And I don't care about your denial of percentages either, I'll side with the women speaking out, the men admitting to their abuse & the various impartial agencies that come up with the records and numbers, like the International Red Cross, for starters. Even if, EVEN IF the numbers coming out about the abuse of women were literally cut in half - they would still beat out probably any country in the world!! Buy continue to deny all you like, and I'll continue to believe the authorities, and while you're denying, women will still continue to receive abuse. And why? Because so many deny it happens and act like it's no big deal. Sickening actually.

like your excuses and denials when i compared the rape percentage in arab countries and USA, you just denied and said that the percentage in arab countries are inaccurate, right ? ;)

[jimnyc]

And this is why some dolts throughout Egypt will never believe anything and deny, deny, deny.... Because a lot of it is censored already by the new government! So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that certain news, and things the government might be responsible for, never makes it to the citizens. God forbid you disagree with them and perhaps print something negative! Go ahead, I dare you to deny this shit doesn't happen...


Court orders to confiscate issues of private newspaper Al-Dustour due to 'fueling sedition' against Morsi. On Thursday, journalists staged small protests and columnists left their columns blank in protest of attempts by the Brotherhood to control the papers instead of reforming them-

An Egyptian court ordered the Saturday editions of a newspaper confiscated over allegations it insulted Islamist president Mohammed Morsi and instigated sectarian discord, Egypt's official news agency said.

Editions of Al-Dustour, a privately owned daily, were seized after several individuals filed lawsuits accusing it of "fueling sedition" and "harming the president through phrases and wording punishable by law," MENA said.

It was not clear whether the paper was barred from publishing completely. Newspaper al-Masry al-Youm said authorities have removed al-Dustour from newsstands.

The paper, a tabloid owned by a Christian businessman, has been fiercely critical of Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood while showing strong support for the military council, which took power after the ouster of Hosni Mubarak in last year's uprising. Both Morsi and the military council are in midst of power struggle.

http://www.liveleak.com//view?i=169_1344721068
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lnLuDNQkhcAOAVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1Z2QxaWZ 2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1JDRjAzNl8yM Tg-/SIG=12rafttgm/EXP=1345595723/**http%3a//www.ifex.org/egypt/2008/08/12/issues_of_al_dustour_and_al_badil/
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lnLuDNQkhcAOgVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1dmlvN2V kBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1JDRjAzNl8yM Tg-/SIG=16qf2jr3c/EXP=1345595723/**http%3a//www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/egypt-daily-newspaper-confiscated-for-insulting-the-president-instigating-sectarian-discord/2012/08/11/9dd468ce-e3d5-11e1-89f7-76e23a982d06_story.html
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[abso]

And this is why some dolts throughout Egypt will never believe anything and deny, deny, deny.... Because a lot of it is censored already by the new government! So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that certain news, and things the government might be responsible for, never makes it to the citizens. God forbid you disagree with them and perhaps print something negative! Go ahead, I dare you to deny this shit doesn't happen...



http://www.liveleak.com//view?i=169_1344721068
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lnLuDNQkhcAOAVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1Z2QxaWZ 2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1JDRjAzNl8yM Tg-/SIG=12rafttgm/EXP=1345595723/**http%3a//www.ifex.org/egypt/2008/08/12/issues_of_al_dustour_and_al_badil/
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lnLuDNQkhcAOgVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1dmlvN2V kBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1JDRjAzNl8yM Tg-/SIG=16qf2jr3c/EXP=1345595723/**http%3a//www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/egypt-daily-newspaper-confiscated-for-insulting-the-president-instigating-sectarian-discord/2012/08/11/9dd468ce-e3d5-11e1-89f7-76e23a982d06_story.html
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7lnLuDNQkhcAPQVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1cjVlbWJ vBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1JDRjAzNl8yM Tg-/SIG=14fr92gv8/EXP=1345595723/**http%3a//www.nytimes.com/2012/08/16/world/middleeast/egypts-islamists-accused-of-limiting-press-freedom.html%3fpagewanted=all

the problem for you is that you don't live in egypt, you don't know anything about egypt, and you certainly don't know anything about the age we all live in, in this age none can forbid news or censor them, closing a newspaper will never stop the news itself from spreading because people rarely now read them anyway, Facebook, internet blogs, twitter, forums like this, online newspaper sites, those all are the new age news agencies, you can never ever stop news in this age.

about press freedom, you don't see what i see, tens of egyptian newspaper insults the president everyday, they have even more freedom than the one they had when Mubarak was in charge, none could ever dare to insult Mubarak, he would have been arrested and thrown in jail without any charges for years, even new president Morsi and his vice president was thrown in jail without charges in 2005 because they demonstrated against forging the parliament election results, now, none is thrown in jail without charges, none is arrested for no reason, none is tortured in police stations, none is terrorized by state security, the press enjoys much more freedom after the revolution and even more after morsi taking charge.

but even freedom has limits, they can't insults the president and the government everyday and expect no consequences, they are charged officialy in court by insult charges, none in throwing them in jail without trial.

the freedom of speech that you believe in is different from the one we believe in, we believe that you are free as long as you don't insult others, you can criticize without insulting as much as you want, but insulting is not a freedom, and just because someone is a newspaper writer doesn't give him the right to insult anyone at whim and then ask for the press freedom.

[logroller]

the problem for you is that you don't live in egypt, you don't know anything about egypt, and you certainly don't know anything about the age we all live in, in this age none can forbid news or censor them, closing a newspaper will never stop the news itself from spreading because people rarely now read them anyway, Facebook, internet blogs, twitter, forums like this, online newspaper sites, those all are the new age news agencies, you can never ever stop news in this age.

about press freedom, you don't see what i see, tens of egyptian newspaper insults the president everyday, they have even more freedom than the one they had when Mubarak was in charge, none could ever dare to insult Mubarak, he would have been arrested and thrown in jail without any charges for years, even new president Morsi and his vice president was thrown in jail without charges in 2005 because they demonstrated against forging the parliament election results, now, none is thrown in jail without charges, none is arrested for no reason, none is tortured in police stations, none is terrorized by state security, the press enjoys much more freedom after the revolution and even more after morsi taking charge.

but even freedom has limits, they can't insults the president and the government everyday and expect no consequences, they are charged officialy in court by insult charges, none in throwing them in jail without trial.

the freedom of speech that you believe in is different from the one we believe in, we believe that you are free as long as you don't insult others, you can criticize without insulting as much as you want, but insulting is not a freedom, and just because someone is a newspaper writer doesn't give him the right to insult anyone at whim and then ask for the press freedom.

In the US, disseminating known untruths which cause harm, even to character, can be punished by our laws, called libel (if written) and slander (if spoken).

[Thunderknuckles]

No, Allah is their word for their God, not the God of Abraham . Not the Father of Jesus Christ. Sure they believe in one God, so what.
I know this misunderstanding affects average Christians. I wonder if it also affects average Muslims as well?

Allah is the God of Abraham. Muhammad is descended from Abraham's son Ishmael while Jesus is descended from Abraham's son Isaac.
Somewhere between Islamic expansion after the death of Muhammad, the Crusades that followed, to modern day terrorism Jews, Christians, and Muslims have lost sight of the fact that we share the same Creator. It is in our own flawed interpretations of the Word of God that we make war upon each other.

[abso]

In the US, disseminating known untruths which cause harm, even to character, can be punished by our laws, called libel (if written) and slander (if spoken).

i am not talking about untruths that cause harm, i am just talking about insults, cause apparently, Jim believes that everyone should have the freedom of insulting anyone he doesn't like.

[CSM]

i am not talking about untruths that cause harm, i am just talking about insults, cause apparently, Jim believes that everyone should have the freedom of insulting anyone he doesn't like.

Umm ... It's not just Jim. US citizens do indeed have the freedom of insulting anyone they don't like. They DO NOT have freedom from the consequences of doing so (libel, slander, etc). An that, my friend, is what makes the United States of America a GREAT country!

[jimnyc]

i am not talking about untruths that cause harm, i am just talking about insults, cause apparently, Jim believes that everyone should have the freedom of insulting anyone he doesn't like.

We have about 300+ million people who believe these freedoms are inherent to us all. You act as if this is SO bad, that we believe we should be able to speak freely, but find it hard to condemn the endless beating of women in Islam. While us bad Americans believe in freedom of speech and freedom of expressions, people in other parts of the world apparently feel that the freedom to beat their wife is something inherent to them. Different walks of life I suppose. People in the States will get angry at others opinions when they speak their minds, but we won't hardly see newspapers being subdued for what they write, nor see people imprisoned regularly for speaking out, or people killed for speaking and being called "blasphemy". Or would you like to deny what happens to those accused of blasphemy as well, Abso? In the Islamic world - what happens to someone who speaks out crap they don't like about the Quran? Or speaks out negatively about Allah? Or proclaims to be a God, or to take another God? Or publicly makes fun of Muhammed?

Read just this one little page and then deny, deny, deny, DIDN'T HAPPEN! LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy

We don't always care for what others say here in America, but as a way of life, we generally don't imprison, beat, maim or kill people for such things.

[logroller]

We have about 300+ million people who believe these freedoms are inherent to us all. You act as if this is SO bad, that we believe we should be able to speak freely, but find it hard to condemn the endless beating of women in Islam. While us bad Americans believe in freedom of speech and freedom of expressions, people in other parts of the world apparently feel that the freedom to beat their wife is something inherent to them. Different walks of life I suppose. People in the States will get angry at others opinions when they speak their minds, but we won't hardly see newspapers being subdued for what they write, nor see people imprisoned regularly for speaking out, or people killed for speaking and being called "blasphemy". Or would you like to deny what happens to those accused of blasphemy as well, Abso? In the Islamic world - what happens to someone who speaks out crap they don't like about the Quran? Or speaks out negatively about Allah? Or proclaims to be a God, or to take another God? Or publicly makes fun of Muhammed?

Read just this one little page and then deny, deny, deny, DIDN'T HAPPEN! LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy

We don't always care for what others say here in America, but as a way of life, we generally don't imprison, beat, maim or kill people for such things.

From your wiki source-
Women may be permitted to repent, and may receive a lesser punishment than would befall a man who committed the same offense.[8] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy#cite_note-Encyclopedia_of_Religion-7) In some jurisdictions blasphemy may be subject to the death penalty (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty)[87] (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy#cite_note-86). Many severe punishments are imposed in various Islamic societies, but not actually required or recommended by Islam or the Quran.

[abso]

I know this misunderstanding affects average Christians. I wonder if it also affects average Muslims as well?

Allah is the God of Abraham. Muhammad is descended from Abraham's son Ishmael while Jesus is descended from Abraham's son Isaac.
Somewhere between Islamic expansion after the death of Muhammad, the Crusades that followed, to modern day terrorism Jews, Christians, and Muslims have lost sight of the fact that we share the same Creator. It is in our own flawed interpretations of the Word of God that we make war upon each other.

In Islam we believe in what you just said, we believe in Muhammad and Jesus and Moses, we believe in Islam and Christianity and Judaism, in Islam, disbelieving in Jesus or Moses is the same as disbelieving in Muhammad, we have to believe in all the prophets or we wont be Muslims.

[jimnyc]

From your wiki source-

Your point?

[abso]

Umm ... It's not just Jim. US citizens do indeed have the freedom of insulting anyone they don't like. They DO NOT have freedom from the consequences of doing so (libel, slander, etc). An that, my friend, is what makes the United States of America a GREAT country!

believe me, the freedom to insult does not make a society great, great society are built upon respect between its members, not upon limitless freedom, everything good when it doesn't have a limit will turn into bad, we believe in freedom, but with certain limits, i believe that no one have the right to insult me just because he\she doesn't like the way i live or think, he\she have to respect that i am different than him\her.

[jimnyc]

believe me, the freedom to insult does not make a society great, great society are built upon respect between its members, not upon limitless freedom, everything good when it doesn't have a limit will turn into bad, we believe in freedom, but with certain limits, i believe that no one have the right to insult me just because he\she doesn't like the way i live or think, he\she have to respect that i am different than him\her.

Sure, and societies that punish people for their opinions are SO much better! The violence in Islam is never ending, and is a way of life for many societies. That's a much better place to live.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.bloggingstocks.com/media/2007/07/baghdad_bob_1.jpg

[abso]

1- You act as if this is SO bad, that we believe we should be able to speak freely,
2- but find it hard to condemn the endless beating of women in Islam.
3- While us bad Americans believe in freedom of speech and freedom of expressions,
4- people in other parts of the world apparently feel that the freedom to beat their wife is something inherent to them. Different walks of life I suppose.
5- People in the States will get angry at others opinions when they speak their minds, but we won't hardly see newspapers being subdued for what they write, nor see people imprisoned regularly for speaking out,
6- or people killed for speaking and being called "blasphemy". Or would you like to deny what happens to those accused of blasphemy as well, Abso?
7- In the Islamic world - what happens to someone who speaks out crap they don't like about the Quran? Or speaks out negatively about Allah? Or proclaims to be a God, or to take another God? Or publicly makes fun of Muhammed?

Read just this one little page and then deny, deny, deny, DIDN'T HAPPEN! LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy

We don't always care for what others say here in America, but as a way of life, we generally don't imprison, beat, maim or kill people for such things.

1- no, its not bad that you speak freely, but its bad if you insult people, you have no right to insult anyone.

2- i dare you to find just 1 reply in which i have stated that i don't condemn beating women, by the way "YOU WONT FIND ANY".

3- again freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom of insults, i believe that damage to people isn't just physical.

4- have you actually ever met any Muslim who told you that he is free to beat his wife, or is it just from your non credible sources ?

5- so you believe any newspaper have the right to insult you everyday and you have no right to sue them and shut them down ?

6- never happened in Egypt, i just read that it happens sometimes in Pakistan, never read about it happening in Arab countries.

7- Islamic world is such a big word, there is KSA, Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malaysia, UAE, Tunisia, Sudan, and those are just some examples of the Islamic countries, each one has its different traditions and even in the same country, different areas have different traditions, so using that word is like saying all Christians are terrorists and racists because of what KKK used to do.

[jimnyc]

Abso, please type paragraphs like an adult.

[abso]

Sure, and societies that punish people for their opinions are SO much better! The violence in Islam is never ending, and is a way of life for many societies. That's a much better place to live.



An insult is not an opinion, me saying you are stupid, that is not an opinion, that is an insult.

we consider insults a crime in Egypt, it doesn't have anything to do with Islam, its just the Egyptian law that says so, Islam never said to close newspapers or TV stations, i don't think muslims had any TV stations 1400 years ago when Muhammad was around.

[abso]

Abso, please type paragraphs like an adult.

-That was not a paragraph, i am replying point by point, "freedom of speech", is that a crime or what ? ;)
or
-Sorry, can't write paragraphs yet, still learning English basics.



choose what you want, either way i am free to write the way i like...

[jimnyc]

1- no, its not bad that you speak freely, but its bad if you insult people, you have no right to insult anyone.

I most certainly DO have that right, and I feel bad that you come from a world where it's unheard of for people to have rights, to speak their minds. But get it through your noggin, in FREE AMERICA, we have freedom of speech, and even though you may not like it, it's a RIGHT of ours to do so.


2- i dare you to find just 1 reply in which i have stated that i don't condemn beating women, by the way "YOU WONT FIND ANY".

This is why you want to number posts, to confuse the issue. You want to condemn it generally, while the other side of your mouth denies that some of it exists, regardless of what impartial worldwide agencies say.


3- again freedom of expression doesn't mean freedom of insults, i believe that damage to people isn't just physical.

Maybe not in a 3rd world craphole, but yes, WE do have the freedom to insult people if we want to. It may not always be the brightest thing to do, and as much as it may piss you off, IT IS OUR RIGHT


4- have you actually ever met any Muslim who told you that he is free to beat his wife, or is it just from your non credible sources ?

You'll deny my response, but YES. I have quite a few Muslim friends and they explain the differences to me, and how things are in certain Muslim areas and different in even other areas. Women are not considered to be equals of man. The Hadith and other religious wordings even OK light beating, and even many clerics will even teach just how it's ok to beat your wife if she gets out of line. No one is saying that YOU do these things, or your neighbor, but everything is considered not to be credible to you, even when it comes directly from the mouths of the women involved. But I suppose they just lie too.


5- so you believe any newspaper have the right to insult you everyday and you have no right to sue them and shut them down ?

That is correct, we have freedom of speech here and freedoms for our press. Unless they cross the line into slander/libel - they are FREE to insult - and it happens daily. Pickup an American paper and read many of the editorial sections - filled with insults! I'm sorry our freedoms irritate you so much, but it won't be changing anytime soon.


6- never happened in Egypt, i just read that it happens sometimes in Pakistan, never read about it happening in Arab countries.

Never happened in Egypt, huh? It's your fucking law!! LOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Egypt

Read the list of selected cases at the bottom. "All lies I tell you!" Spoken in Baghdad Bob's voice! :lol:


7- Islamic world is such a big word, there is KSA, Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malaysia, UAE, Tunisia, Sudan, and those are just some examples of the Islamic countries, each one has its different traditions and even in the same country, different areas have different traditions, so using that word is like saying all Christians are terrorists and racists because of what KKK used to do.

That we can agree on. But I dare say that condemning the Quran or Muhammed in ANY of those places will be met with some sort of blasphemy actions/charges. That's NOT freedom.

[jimnyc]

An insult is not an opinion, me saying you are stupid, that is not an opinion, that is an insult.

we consider insults a crime in Egypt, it doesn't have anything to do with Islam, its just the Egyptian law that says so, Islam never said to close newspapers or TV stations, i don't think muslims had any TV stations 1400 years ago when Muhammad was around.

No wonder, this explains a lot! If I say - Abso, your post is fucking stupid and I think you're stupid". Yep, it might be an insult, but it's also an opinion, and it's protected speech throughout America/ What a crazy and fucked up country we live in, huh? :laugh2:

[jimnyc]

-That was not a paragraph, i am replying point by point, "freedom of speech", is that a crime or what ? ;)
or
-Sorry, can't write paragraphs yet, still learning English basics.



choose what you want, either way i am free to write the way i like...

That you are, and I'm free to spread the truth about how idiotic you write, and free to speak my opinion about ANY blowhard in Islam, up to and including the Pedophile known as Muhammed, and free to speak the truth about the endless atrocities in Islam and the endless abuse of women. Being free is grand! Ooops, at least until that freedom exposes the absolute garbage coming out of some places, then suddenly the freedom is not so grand anymore.

Grand for me all the time though! I Love America and I love the beautiful freedom we have here, even if it means at times that people are allowed to insult me. Sure as fuck beats living in a place where it's possible for me to be beaten or imprisoned for speaking out, or perhaps having my head sawed off with a nice machete. :laugh2:

[jimnyc]

It never happened I tell you, all lies!!! While this obviously never happened, and it's full of lies, it's disgusting nonetheless.


Egypt police stand by, laugh as women harassed, groped (http://www.bikyamasr.com/75852/egypt-police-by-laugh-as-women-harassed-groped/)CAIRO: Along Cairo’s downtown Nile River promenade two police officers stand off to one side, point and begin to laugh. What they are pointing at is not funny: two women are in the throngs of being harassed, groped and assaulted by at least four people, Bikyamasr.com witnessed on Monday afternoon.

The girls were screaming and attempting to push away the boys, somewhere in their late teens, from the area as they implored for them to stop.

The police officers did nothing, only watched and laughed as the girls were being attacked.
...

When asked why they didn’t intervene, one of the officers told Bikyamasr.com “we are here to stop crimes, not these such things.”
...

“I don’t know what we were thinking. This is just what living in Cairo is like now. We face harassment everywhere,” one of them said before they jumped in a taxi and fled away, leaving what they called “blood-thirsty boys” along the river’s edge.

Unfortunately for Egypt, sexual violence toward women is nothing new. June this year saw some of the worst attacks against women, with both foreigners and Egyptians reporting that they had been sexually assaulted in the square take place following the disbanding of Parliament.

http://www.bikyamasr.com/75852/egypt-police-by-laugh-as-women-harassed-groped/

[Roo]

So do Jaffy and the new kid support the Global Caliphate?

[Roo]

believe me, the freedom to insult does not make a society great, great society are built upon respect between its members, not upon limitless freedom, everything good when it doesn't have a limit will turn into bad, we believe in freedom, but with certain limits, i believe that no one have the right to insult me just because he\she doesn't like the way i live or think, he\she have to respect that i am different than him\her.

How covenient, YOU get to choose what is an insult and what isn't....too funny.

Let's start here.....what Islamic Sect are you involved with?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

as i said, there was no Mobs and there was no crucifixions,that NEVER HAPPENED


How do you know that it never happened? Are you there, a Republican Guard maybe?
If not there , then your objection is based on what then? That muslims would not do such a thing?
Dont try to hand me that line!--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I know this misunderstanding affects average Christians. I wonder if it also affects average Muslims as well?

Allah is the God of Abraham. Muhammad is descended from Abraham's son Ishmael while Jesus is descended from Abraham's son Isaac.
Somewhere between Islamic expansion after the death of Muhammad, the Crusades that followed, to modern day terrorism Jews, Christians, and Muslims have lost sight of the fact that we share the same Creator. It is in our own flawed interpretations of the Word of God that we make war upon each other.

I already knew about the lineage. The difference is the Koran stands in opposition to the bible. It supplants Jesus as the Saviour with Mohammed the pervert as the go between for God and the people. It also teaches salvation by deed , by man's actions of strict obediance , with that it denies Jesus Christ's divinity and his role as our Saviour. In short there can not be two bibles, God doesnt do -overs when it comes to his words to mankind! Islam is false, plain and simple. Islam commands to kill infidels, Christian God/Jesus commands to love your enemies. I'm a bit short on that one, my Injun blood dont allow it!!-;)-Tyr

[abso]

1- I most certainly DO have that right, and I feel bad that you come from a world where it's unheard of for people to have rights, to speak their minds. But get it through your noggin, in FREE AMERICA, we have freedom of speech, and even though you may not like it, it's a RIGHT of ours to do so.

2- This is why you want to number posts, to confuse the issue. You want to condemn it generally, while the other side of your mouth denies that some of it exists, regardless of what impartial worldwide agencies say.

3- That is correct, we have freedom of speech here and freedoms for our press. Unless they cross the line into slander/libel - they are FREE to insult - and it happens daily. Pickup an American paper and read many of the editorial sections - filled with insults! I'm sorry our freedoms irritate you so much, but it won't be changing anytime soon.

4- Never happened in Egypt, huh? It's your fucking law!! LOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Egypt



1- actually in my world in which you say we have no rights, i have the right to not be insulted and forced to accept that insult, i have the right to sue who insults me, i think the right not to be insulted is much better than the right to insult, and anyone who believe that freedom is having the right to insult people is someone who doesn't deserve to has freedom in the first place, and if that's the case, why don't you have the freedom to smoke marijuana as an example ???, would that hurt anyone but you ???, so smoking certain things is forbidden while it only hurts you, but insulting others is allowed ????

2-on the contrary, if you stop accusing me for a second and think about it, you would find out that me numbering the posts is the only way to not confuse any issue with the other, not writing it in a paragraph will help me and you to distinguish between the subjects and not to forget anything, and i condemn it of course, and i never said it is not existent, i just denied your numbers, and the news agencies you use and non credible ones, talk to me when you find a single credible link in a world renown news agency.

3- who decides if its a slander or not ?, and again, freedom to insult is not morally rights, and society without morals is nothing.

4- from your link:

Article 98(f) of the Penal Code, as amended by Law 147/2006 states the penalty for blasphemy and similar crimes:
<dl style="margin-top: 0.2em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; line-height: 19.200000762939453px; "><dd style="line-height: 1.5em; margin-left: 1.6em; margin-bottom: 0.1em; margin-right: 0px; ">Confinement for a period of not less than six months and not exceeding five years, or a fine of not less than five hundred pounds and not exceeding one thousand pounds shall be the penalty inflicted on whoever makes use of religion in propagating, either by words, in writing, or in any other means, extreme ideas for the purpose of inciting strife, ridiculing or insulting a heavenly religion or a sect following it, or damaging national unity.
</dd></dl>

Crime punished by this law:
- Use of religion in propagating, either by words, in writing, or in any other means, extreme ideas for the purpose of inciting strife, ridiculing or insulting a heavenly religion or a sect following it, or damaging national unity.

Punishment:
- Confinement for a period of not less than six months and not exceeding five years, or a fine of not less than five hundred pounds and not exceeding one thousand pounds.


so the law isn't just for Islam, its for Christianity and Judaism too, insulting any religion will incite hatred, cause crimes, damage the national unity between Muslims and Christians, that's why insulting religions are not allowed in my country, in your country its okay to insult anyone and everyone and everything, we don't call that freedom, so don't try to impose your ideas upon us, and stop thinking that you are better than us, being able to insult doesn't make you any better, it just makes you worse.

let's review that scenario, a child get insulted everyday in school by his class mates for years, finally he commits suicide, in your opinion the child is weak and stupid for killing himself, but what about the persons who drove him into this, why are they allowed to insult him everyday, to turn his life into a living hell, to make him feel bad about himself to the point that he wishes to kill himself, how many times did that happen in USA ????

why do you think that freedom without limits is a good thing to have ???, will you accept it if someone insults your child everyday in the street without you having anything to do about it ???


anyway, that law you are talking about, is for protecting everyone, to prevent the damage to the national unity which may lead eventually to a civil war, we Arabs tend to love our religions, both Muslims and Christians, and you will find no Egyptian tolerant to the insult of his religion, you will find no Egyptian christian tolerant to the insults of Jesus or bible, that's the way we are made, its how we live, its not about Islam or Christianity, its just that people in this region doesn't have a NON existent moral compass like other countries which worship freedom more than respect and peace and religion.

[abso]

I already knew about the lineage. The difference is the Koran stands in opposition to the bible. It supplants Jesus as the Saviour with Mohammed the pervert as the go between for God and the people. It also teaches salvation by deed , by man's actions of strict obediance , with that it denies Jesus Christ's divinity and his role as our Saviour. In short there can not be two bibles, God doesnt do -overs when it comes to his words to mankind! Islam is false, plain and simple. Islam commands to kill infidels, Christian God/Jesus commands to love your enemies. I'm a bit short on that one, my Injun blood dont allow it!!-;)-Tyr

please don't make me started on throwing verse at you from the bible that incite hatred and call for the death of enemies.

[jimnyc]

please don't make me started on throwing verse at you from the bible that incite hatred and call for the death of enemies.

And who still follows that portion of their Holy Book? Are civilized Christians out there killing based on the bible? Are modern day Muslims killing based on the Quran?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

please don't make me started on throwing verse at you from the bible that incite hatred and call for the death of enemies.

Not from the New Testament you won't. Old testament sure but New Testament is from Christ onward.
Quote all the verses you like while I cite actual recent and current cases of murdering innocent people conveniently declare to be enemies by Islamists! Let it be a battle of Verse vs. Worse! Talk vs. actual deed . We see the actual deeds coming from muslims.Which is worse Old Testament words or actual deeds now being carried out?-Tyr

[logroller]

Your point?

1) That women are held to lesser standard than men.
2) the blasphemy laws arent Islamic in nature, but political.

[jafar00]

I'm glad you added a smiley, so we know you acknowledge this crap happens over there. It's a disgrace, and one of the reasons I didn't want to see these scumbags have anywhere near any type of control over there. But hell, this isn't even the MB doing this shit, just those who support them. I'm just glad I don't have to live in such an environment.

What's so wrong about the environment? Egyptians are enjoying unprecedented levels of free speech at the moment. Sure there is poverty, it's hot and dusty but things are looking up here. A lot of new businesses are popping up and the general feeling is positive.

Morsi has his work cut out for him as the 1st President after decades of neglect by Mubarak.

Anyway, I can't believe that you believe half the lies being spewed about Egypt and about Islam. Many things released by journos here are disinformation by Christians stirring trouble or feloul (remnants of the former regime) in order to discredit the elected government. For example, the supposed sex with your dead wife law that never existed. Everyone here has learned never to trust the media. You should too.


Deny, deny deny. Why would multiple news agencies lie about this? And I'm not talking about things happening near the palace, but rather by Morsi supporters throughout the nation, to possibly those who stand against the MB. I'm sure more and more truth will come out as things progress

I have been past there. Abso has been there and even lives close by. You have two eyewitness reports that nothing of the like has happened near the palace or anywhere else in Cairo. I would take photos too to prove it if photos were allowed around this very tightly controlled area.


And this is why some dolts throughout Egypt will never believe anything and deny, deny, deny.... Because a lot of it is censored already by the new government! So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that certain news, and things the government might be responsible for, never makes it to the citizens. God forbid you disagree with them and perhaps print something negative! Go ahead, I dare you to deny this shit doesn't happen...


Egyptians don't necessarily need the media to know what is going on. News travels fast in tight knit communities.

BTW, there was a protest against Morsi in Tahrir last week. It was a fizzle with maybe a few dozen people expressing their new found right to free speech.


So do Jaffy and the new kid support the Global Caliphate?

What is the Global Caliphate? A new rap group?

[logroller]

1- actually in my world in which you say we have no rights, i have the right to not be insulted and forced to accept that insult, i have the right to sue who insults me, i think the right not to be insulted is much better than the right to insult, and anyone who believe that freedom is having the right to insult people is someone who doesn't deserve to has freedom in the first place, and if that's the case, why don't you have the freedom to smoke marijuana as an example ???, would that hurt anyone but you ???, so smoking certain things is forbidden while it only hurts you, but insulting others is allowed ????

2-on the contrary, if you stop accusing me for a second and think about it, you would find out that me numbering the posts is the only way to not confuse any issue with the other, not writing it in a paragraph will help me and you to distinguish between the subjects and not to forget anything, and i condemn it of course, and i never said it is not existent, i just denied your numbers, and the news agencies you use and non credible ones, talk to me when you find a single credible link in a world renown news agency.

3- who decides if its a slander or not ?, and again, freedom to insult is not morally rights, and society without morals is nothing.

4- from your link:


Crime punished by this law:
- Use of religion in propagating, either by words, in writing, or in any other means, extreme ideas for the purpose of inciting strife, ridiculing or insulting a heavenly religion or a sect following it, or damaging national unity.

Punishment:
- Confinement for a period of not less than six months and not exceeding five years, or a fine of not less than five hundred pounds and not exceeding one thousand pounds.


so the law isn't just for Islam, its for Christianity and Judaism too, insulting any religion will incite hatred, cause crimes, damage the national unity between Muslims and Christians, that's why insulting religions are not allowed in my country, in your country its okay to insult anyone and everyone and everything, we don't call that freedom, so don't try to impose your ideas upon us, and stop thinking that you are better than us, being able to insult doesn't make you any better, it just makes you worse.

let's review that scenario, a child get insulted everyday in school by his class mates for years, finally he commits suicide, in your opinion the child is weak and stupid for killing himself, but what about the persons who drove him into this, why are they allowed to insult him everyday, to turn his life into a living hell, to make him feel bad about himself to the point that he wishes to kill himself, how many times did that happen in USA ????

why do you think that freedom without limits is a good thing to have ???, will you accept it if someone insults your child everyday in the street without you having anything to do about it ???


anyway, that law you are talking about, is for protecting everyone, to prevent the damage to the national unity which may lead eventually to a civil war, we Arabs tend to love our religions, both Muslims and Christians, and you will find no Egyptian tolerant to the insult of his religion, you will find no Egyptian christian tolerant to the insults of Jesus or bible, that's the way we are made, its how we live, its not about Islam or Christianity, its just that people in this region doesn't have a NON existent moral compass like other countries which worship freedom more than respect and peace and religion.
Here's where I see a problem with 'no insults', that what you may consider an insult, another may not. For example, is apostasy (converting to christianity from islam) an insult to Islam? I realize that, unlike Saudi Arabia, Egypt has no official law against conversion, it certainly could be thought of as "damaging to national unity". And although no official law exists, it is entirely possible for authorities to turn a blind eye to the persecution of converts who violate sharia.

[jafar00]

Here's where I see a problem with 'no insults', that what you may consider an insult, another may not. For example, is apostasy (converting to christianity from islam) an insult to Islam? I realize that, unlike Saudi Arabia, Egypt has no official law against conversion, it certainly could be thought of as "damaging to national unity". And although no official law exists, it is entirely possible for authorities to turn a blind eye to the persecution of converts who violate sharia.

Egypt is not the wild west. There is rule of law here and that is becoming more fair and less corrupt with the new government in charge.

[logroller]

Egypt is not the wild west. There is rule of law here and that is becoming more fair and less corrupt with the new government in charge.

The Amercan west wasn't the "wild west"; but I'm happy to hear conditions are improving. Doesn't really address my concern though; is apostasy considered an insult to Islam that could be punishable under law?

[Kathianne]

Across the Middle East there is a rise against all that are not Muslim. It's not just those that have converted from Islam to Christianity:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/314615/obamas-alert-observation-anti-christian-violence-must-end-benjamin-weinthal

[taft2012]

I have been past there. Abso has been there and even lives close by. You have two eyewitness reports that nothing of the like has happened near the palace or anywhere else in Cairo.

If either of you had ever demonstrated you had so much as a toe dipped into the ocean of reality, this might have been your opportunity to shine with a first-hand report. As it is, all we can envision is you covering your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la la la la la la!"

If it turns out these incidents did not happen, the unfortunate thing is your type will just use this story as a foundation to for further manic denial of Islamic atrocities at other places/times, despite films, corpses, etc.

Like the story of the poor feeble-minded Christian girl in Pakistan. One account has an imam handing her pages of a Koran and taking her to the police station. I can't think of any such blood-lust in contemporary Christianity or Judaism, especially coming from clerics. Example after example is out there. What's wrong with you people?

[Voted4Reagan]

Egypt is not the wild west. There is rule of law here and that is becoming more fair and less corrupt with the new government in charge.


Sure.....keep telling yourself that...


http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/murder-of-copts-begins-after-genocide-call.html

Hours after leaflets from Egypt’s jihadi organizations were distributed promising to “reward” any Muslim who kills any Christian Copt in Egypt, specifically naming several regions including Asyut, a report recently appeared concerning the random killing of a Christian store-owner.

Also..... in other news...

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Muslim-Brotherhood-against-journalists-and-judges-who-criticise-Morsi-25592.html

Cairo (AsiaNews/Agencies) - Fearing a drop in popular support, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood is trying to silence its critics. In the past few months, journalist Tawfiq Okasha (pictured) has been one of the loudest voices speaking out against the Brotherhood and President Mohammed al-Morsi. As a result, he has been accused of defaming the president and portraying Islam in a bad light, opening him up to attacks.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Here's where I see a problem with 'no insults', that what you may consider an insult, another may not. For example, is apostasy (converting to christianity from islam) an insult to Islam? I realize that, unlike Saudi Arabia, Egypt has no official law against conversion, it certainly could be thought of as "damaging to national unity".



And although no official law exists, it is entirely possible for authorities to turn a blind eye to the persecution of converts who violate sharia.

Log, your comment about those "who violate sharia" points to the problem. Sharia is law, Shria law is religious law and it's enforced even when the government has not officially mandated it to be officially recognised law. Islam has its own law ,that's the problem Islam is a unification of religious, political and military ideologies, always has been!--Tyr

[jafar00]

The Amercan west wasn't the "wild west"; but I'm happy to hear conditions are improving. Doesn't really address my concern though; is apostasy considered an insult to Islam that could be punishable under law?

There is no worldly punishment for apostacy in Sharia. Any laws made to the contrary are not Sharia. Period.


Sure.....keep telling yourself that...


http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/murder-of-copts-begins-after-genocide-call.html

Hours after leaflets from Egypt’s jihadi organizations were distributed promising to “reward” any Muslim who kills any Christian Copt in Egypt, specifically naming several regions including Asyut, a report recently appeared concerning the random killing of a Christian store-owner.

Also..... in other news...

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Muslim-Brotherhood-against-journalists-and-judges-who-criticise-Morsi-25592.html

Cairo (AsiaNews/Agencies) - Fearing a drop in popular support, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood is trying to silence its critics. In the past few months, journalist Tawfiq Okasha (pictured) has been one of the loudest voices speaking out against the Brotherhood and President Mohammed al-Morsi. As a result, he has been accused of defaming the president and portraying Islam in a bad light, opening him up to attacks.

I would take any media coming out of Egypt with a grain of salt. There is a lot of disinfo going on. Egyptians know not to trust their media and you should know it too.

As for Tawfiq, he is accused of threatening the life of the President. Remind me again what they do to people in the US who threaten or incite others to kill the President?


Log, your comment about those "who violate sharia" points to the problem. Sharia is law, Shria law is religious law and it's enforced even when the government has not officially mandated it to be officially recognised law. Islam has its own law ,that's the problem Islam is a unification of religious, political and military ideologies, always has been!--Tyr

It's built in to Sharia that it can only be enforced by the ruling govt and only by the ruling govt's appointed judges in a court of law. Anyone trying to enforce sharia without official permission from the govt is violating the law.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There is no worldly punishment for apostacy in Sharia. Any laws made to the contrary are not Sharia. Period.



I would take any media coming out of Egypt with a grain of salt. There is a lot of disinfo going on. Egyptians know not to trust their media and you should know it too.

As for Tawfiq, he is accused of threatening the life of the President. Remind me again what they do to people in the US who threaten or incite others to kill the President?



It's built in to Sharia that it can only be enforced by the ruling govt and only by the ruling govt's appointed judges in a court of law. Anyone trying to enforce sharia without official permission from the govt is violating the law.

The murdering mobs enforce Sharia and nothing is done about it because the clerics are often the ones that incite the mobs to act regardless of whether its recognised as official government law or not!
Also I noticed that you completely ignored my comment about Islam being a unification of religious, political and military ideologies! Why is that? Is it because you know its true?-Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

http://www.bikyamasr.com/75852/egypt-police-by-laugh-as-women-harassed-groped/

Along Cairo’s downtown Nile River promenade two police officers stand off to one side, point and begin to laugh. What they are pointing at is not funny: two women are in the throngs of being harassed, groped and assaulted by at least four people, Bikyamasr.com witnessed on Monday afternoon.

The girls were screaming and attempting to push away the boys, somewhere in their late teens, from the area as they implored for them to stop.

The police officers did nothing, only watched and laughed as the girls were being attacked.

While the harassment on Monday was nothing like the women who have been stripped and beaten by mobs of men and the military over the past year, it highlighted what many women feared ahead of the current Eid el-Fitr holiday that marks the end of the holy month of Ramadan and the Islamic world’s sunrise to sunset fast.

[Voted4Reagan]

There is no worldly punishment for apostacy in Sharia. Any laws made to the contrary are not Sharia. Period.



I would take any media coming out of Egypt with a grain of salt. There is a lot of disinfo going on. Egyptians know not to trust their media and you should know it too.

As for Tawfiq, he is accused of threatening the life of the President. Remind me again what they do to people in the US who threaten or incite others to kill the President?



It's built in to Sharia that it can only be enforced by the ruling govt and only by the ruling govt's appointed judges in a court of law. Anyone trying to enforce sharia without official permission from the govt is violating the law.

Really?

Well... I give to you the 14th Hadith of Nawawi.. First in Arabic..secondly in English

http://www.bible-quran.com/hadith-14-imam-nawawi/


The fourteenth hadith compiled by Nawawi, first in Arabic and then in English,
عن ابن مسعود رضي الله عنه ، قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( لا يحل دم امرىء مسلم [ يشهد أن لا إله إلا الله ، وأني رسول الله ] إلا بـإحـدي ثـلاث : الـثـيـب الــزاني ، والـنـفـس بـالنفس ، والـتـارك لـد يـنـه الـمـفـارق للـجـمـاعـة ).
رواه البخاري [ رقم : 6878 ] ، ومسلم [ رقم : 1676 ]“

On the authority of Ibn Mas’ood (radi allahu ‘anhu1) who said: The Messenger of Allah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) who said : The Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam2) said :

It is not permissible to spill the blood of a Muslim except in three [instances] : the married person who commits adultery, a life for a life, and the one who forsakes his religion and separates from the community.

It was related by al-Bukhari (صحيح البخاري) and Muslim (صحيح مسلم).


Now.... Do you REJECT the HADITHS or do you ACCEPT THEM?

Answer Please Jafar....

Accept or Reject?

[jimnyc]

1) That women are held to lesser standard than men.
2) the blasphemy laws arent Islamic in nature, but political.

And yet in reality, neither of them are even remotely true in modern times. Women are treated as less than men, in almost every Islamic society today, and only Muslims will deny this. Some simple reading from scholars around the world will talk about the plight of Muslim women and rights. Anyone denying it is either Muslim, or naive. And while the second issue might be true in theory, or in words, if it were in fact political, it would be in other societies as well. While maybe a couple of examples can be found, by FAR and LARGE, punishment for any type of blasphemy against religion, religious books, religious idols and such - only happens in Islam in the modern age. To deny either of those is futile.

Go to the vicinity of the Vatican and condemn Jesus, or maybe burn a Bible. Repeat this in 10 other major "Christian" cities/countries. Report back with the various punishments received. Now do the same in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Algeria... let me know how that works out for you. Those "political" based laws will be lucky to leave you breathing. Where as in the Christian examples, I'd be surprised if you reported back more than a fine for the burning without a permit.

[jimnyc]

I have been past there. Abso has been there and even lives close by. You have two eyewitness reports that nothing of the like has happened near the palace or anywhere else in Cairo. I would take photos too to prove it if photos were allowed around this very tightly controlled area.

OMG LOL!!! WHY do you guys insist on making this about Morsi, or his guard or AT the palace? I've repeated this many times in this thread, what I'm reading and what I am discussing, has NOTHING to do with ANY area in Particular, but that Morsi supporters are doing as much to those against him, and perhaps worse to Christians. I don't know how else to keep repeating this. But regardless, that would be like me living in the DC area, and saying "I live 10 minutes from the white house, and eyewitnesses have seen no shootings, so the reports of a man shooting up and killing a bunch of people in a theater is 100% false. NEVER HAPPENED". :lol:

[jimnyc]

Here's where I see a problem with 'no insults', that what you may consider an insult, another may not. For example, is apostasy (converting to christianity from islam) an insult to Islam? I realize that, unlike Saudi Arabia, Egypt has no official law against conversion, it certainly could be thought of as "damaging to national unity". And although no official law exists, it is entirely possible for authorities to turn a blind eye to the persecution of converts who violate sharia.

Another set of events that will be met with "NEVER HAPPENED", but apostasy is not met kindly in Islam. In the modern day, people are still killed and abused for wanting to deny Islam and move away. This is a fact, and can be reported directly from the mouths of those who were able to leave, and of course have to escape in some scenarios, but many muslims will just say it doesn't happen.

[jimnyc]

The Amercan west wasn't the "wild west"; but I'm happy to hear conditions are improving. Doesn't really address my concern though; is apostasy considered an insult to Islam that could be punishable under law?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

I wont even bother to link to the thousands of other sites that describe in detail what happens to those who deny the Islamic faith and try to leave. Maybe back in the stone ages, but this crap shouldn't happen ANYWHERE today if someone simply chooses not to believe, or simply chooses to have another belief.

[jimnyc]

There is no worldly punishment for apostacy in Sharia. Any laws made to the contrary are not Sharia. Period.

And what about reality? Are far too many people in far too many places, killed, abused, maimed or similar, for wanting to leave Islam?

And let's look at your comment, and just one little example in Egypt... If no punishment in this life, then WHY can't this man convert? I can bring up MANY more dire examples, but I thought I would go with Egypt and the rule of law, where a man literally wasn't allowed to convert... Now why in the world would this man be LEGALLY prevented from converting? And this is in Egypt's constitution. So if it's in the constitution, and therefore law, I'm confident there are punishments in Egypt if someone breaks the law, no? Yep, that punishment follows this story...


Egypt Rules Christian Convert Must Remain Legally Muslimn Egyptian judge ruled this week in an unprecedented case that a Muslim who converted to Christianity cannot legally change his religious status, although he may believe what he wants in his heart.

Muhammad Hegazy, 25, lost his case on Tuesday when Judge Muhammad Husseini of a court in Cairo said according to sharia, or Islamic law, Islam is the final and most complete religion and therefore Muslims already practice full freedom of religion and cannot convert to an older belief (Christianity or Judaism), according to Christian Solidarity Worldwide.

“He (Hegazy) can believe whatever he wants in his heart, but on paper he can’t convert,” Husseini told the administrative court, according to a member of Hegazy’s legal team to Compass Direct.

Judge Husseini based his decision on Article II of the Egyptian constitution, which makes sharia the source of Egyptian law.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/egypt-rules-christian-convert-must-remain-legally-muslim-31064/

What does another say: "Our rights in Egypt, as Christians or converts, are less than the rights of animals," El-Gohary said. "We are deprived of social and civil rights, deprived of our inheritance and left to the fundamentalists to be killed. Nobody bothers to investigate or care about us." El-Gohary, 56, has been attacked in the street, spat at and knocked down in his effort to win the right to officially convert. He said he and his 14-year-old daughter continue to receive death threats by text message and phone call"

Also in Egypt AND from the Muslim Brotherhood:


In April 2006, after a court case in Egypt recognized the Bahá'í Faith, members of the clergy convinced the government to appeal the court decision. One member of parliament, Gamal Akl of the opposition Muslim Brotherhood, said the Bahá'ís were infidels who should be killed on the grounds that they had changed their religion, thus ignoring the historical nature of the conversion and the fact that most living Bahá'í have not, in fact, ever been Muslim.


And what is reported about the feelings of the people in Egypt in reference to apostasy?

A 2010 Pew Research Center poll showed that 84% of Egyptian Muslims believe those who leave Islam should be punished by death

[jafar00]

The murdering mobs enforce Sharia and nothing is done about it because the clerics are often the ones that incite the mobs to act regardless of whether its recognised as official government law or not!
Also I noticed that you completely ignored my comment about Islam being a unification of religious, political and military ideologies! Why is that? Is it because you know its true?-Tyr

I didn't respond because I don't want to give your delusions and lies about Islam any legitimacy.


http://www.bikyamasr.com/75852/egypt-police-by-laugh-as-women-harassed-groped/

Along Cairo’s downtown Nile River promenade two police officers stand off to one side, point and begin to laugh. What they are pointing at is not funny: two women are in the throngs of being harassed, groped and assaulted by at least four people, Bikyamasr.com witnessed on Monday afternoon.

The girls were screaming and attempting to push away the boys, somewhere in their late teens, from the area as they implored for them to stop.

The police officers did nothing, only watched and laughed as the girls were being attacked.

While the harassment on Monday was nothing like the women who have been stripped and beaten by mobs of men and the military over the past year, it highlighted what many women feared ahead of the current Eid el-Fitr holiday that marks the end of the holy month of Ramadan and the Islamic world’s sunrise to sunset fast.

Yet another story sourced from Christian or anti government rags. There is no independent verification of this story.


Really?

Well... I give to you the 14th Hadith of Nawawi.. First in Arabic..secondly in English

http://www.bible-quran.com/hadith-14-imam-nawawi/


The fourteenth hadith compiled by Nawawi, first in Arabic and then in English,
عن ابن مسعود رضي الله عنه ، قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( لا يحل دم امرىء مسلم [ يشهد أن لا إله إلا الله ، وأني رسول الله ] إلا بـإحـدي ثـلاث : الـثـيـب الــزاني ، والـنـفـس بـالنفس ، والـتـارك لـد يـنـه الـمـفـارق للـجـمـاعـة ).
رواه البخاري [ رقم : 6878 ] ، ومسلم [ رقم : 1676 ]“

On the authority of Ibn Mas’ood (radi allahu ‘anhu1) who said: The Messenger of Allah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) who said : The Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam2) said :

It is not permissible to spill the blood of a Muslim except in three [instances] : the married person who commits adultery, a life for a life, and the one who forsakes his religion and separates from the community.

It was related by al-Bukhari (صحيح البخاري) and Muslim (صحيح مسلم).


Now.... Do you REJECT the HADITHS or do you ACCEPT THEM?

Answer Please Jafar....

Accept or Reject?

I reject your analysis of the hadith. I can't comment on it except to say that in order to understand hadith, you need years of study. They should never be taken at face value.
When was it said?
What are the circumstances surrounding it?
Are there supporting texts?
Is the narrator reliable?
Is there more than one narrator to back it up?
Was it negated by a later hadith?
Was it revealed before a surah in the Qur'aan abrogated it?
There is also scholarly opinion that such hadiths refer only to Muslims who rejected their faith THEN turned against Muslims in the time when the Muslims were being persecuted and attacked in Mecca and Medina.

I don't expect you to accept my explanation since you may be of those who are so totally against Islam that your eyes and your heart are closed to any reasonable argument, but I would ask you to think before accepting analyses of hadith from websites.


OMG LOL!!! WHY do you guys insist on making this about Morsi, or his guard or AT the palace? I've repeated this many times in this thread, what I'm reading and what I am discussing, has NOTHING to do with ANY area in Particular, but that Morsi supporters are doing as much to those against him, and perhaps worse to Christians. I don't know how else to keep repeating this. But regardless, that would be like me living in the DC area, and saying "I live 10 minutes from the white house, and eyewitnesses have seen no shootings, so the reports of a man shooting up and killing a bunch of people in a theater is 100% false. NEVER HAPPENED". :lol:

OMG LOL why do you accept these outlandish stories in the first place? Naked people crucified in the trees surrounding the presidential palace? There aren't that many trees there to begin with and there are guards every 10 feet or so.
I have seen the palace with my own eyes several times this week, abso has seen it, and many other people I know in Cairo have seen it too. Nobody has seen any naked crucifixions.

Why can't you accept this is a fabrication?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

And what about reality? Are far too many people in far too many places, killed, abused, maimed or similar, for wanting to leave Islam?

And let's look at your comment, and just one little example in Egypt... If no punishment in this life, then WHY can't this man convert? I can bring up MANY more dire examples, but I thought I would go with Egypt and the rule of law, where a man literally wasn't allowed to convert... Now why in the world would this man be LEGALLY prevented from converting? And this is in Egypt's constitution. So if it's in the constitution, and therefore law, I'm confident there are punishments in Egypt if someone breaks the law, no? Yep, that punishment follows this story...



http://www.christianpost.com/news/egypt-rules-christian-convert-must-remain-legally-muslim-31064/

What does another say: "Our rights in Egypt, as Christians or converts, are less than the rights of animals," El-Gohary said. "We are deprived of social and civil rights, deprived of our inheritance and left to the fundamentalists to be killed. Nobody bothers to investigate or care about us." El-Gohary, 56, has been attacked in the street, spat at and knocked down in his effort to win the right to officially convert. He said he and his 14-year-old daughter continue to receive death threats by text message and phone call"

Also in Egypt AND from the Muslim Brotherhood:



And what is reported about the feelings of the people in Egypt in reference to apostasy?

A 2010 Pew Research Center poll showed that 84% of Egyptian Muslims believe those who leave Islam should be punished by death

Remember that great declaration about the Arab Spring and how it was a democracy movement spouted by the leftist/dem/lib asshats here in this country back when it started. Now we see an Egypt ran by the Islamic Brotherhood and Sharia law in their Constutution as the law of the land! Just as I predicted back when the socalled Arab Spring first started. Obama supported all of the overthrowing of governmemts over there -EXCEPT- THE ONLY ABSOLUTE THEOCRACY(Muslim theocracy) that was attacked in the Middle East = Iran, there he said hell no to supporting that one and let those that rose up be squashed and murdered.. Obama and the media lied to all of America. Where is the outcry or penalty? Answer, obama is above -ANY LAW-- I repeat -ANY DAMN LAW!
He has openly betrayed his sworn oath of office, the Americam people and this nation. I believe he truly is a "muslim in hiding".. He supports Iran over Israel , Iran over America, square that with anything other than his being a "muslim in hiding"-Tyr

[jimnyc]

OMG LOL why do you accept these outlandish stories in the first place? Naked people crucified in the trees surrounding the presidential palace? There aren't that many trees there to begin with and there are guards every 10 feet or so.
I have seen the palace with my own eyes several times this week, abso has seen it, and many other people I know in Cairo have seen it too. Nobody has seen any naked crucifixions.

Why can't you accept this is a fabrication?

My continued comments on what is going on in Egypt, and even the crucifixions, have nothing to do with the palace. The article might have started with that place in mind, but I've made it clear in many of my posts now that I am not talking about the palace. Shit, the post of mine that you quoted states as much, but you continue to try and stick to the palace, as if you confirm that's not true, then it can't possibly be true anywhere else. Seriously, do you read before replying? Did you you not see, in the very post that you quoted and replied to, that I made that clarification? You guys will argue what I say and continue with the one thing you can confirm, knowing you have no defense for the many articles out there saying this is happening elsewhere. There's little point in having a back and forth if you're going to stick your finger in your ears and hold your hands over your eyes when reading my posts. I too can completely ignore what you write, but it wouldn't make for a decent discussion, would it?

[jimnyc]

And with the debate of crucifixions aside - how is Egypt handling opponents of Morsi, or those who may protest? This is direct from a site in Egypt...


A member of Al-Azhar’s fatwa committee has said that fighting participants in anti-Muslim Brotherhood demonstrations planned for 24 August is a religious obligation.

During a seminar late Tuesday at the Diplomats’ Club in Cairo, Sheikh Hashem Islam accused people intending to take part in the anticipated protests of committing “a major treason," and calling them bandits, traitors, disobedient to God, His messenger, the nation and all Muslims.

“The 24 August protests are a revolution by ratters against democracy and freedom," Islam continued.

Islam said Quranic verses and the Sunnah oblige people to support the leaders they elected over renegades. He said President Mohamed Morsy was elected in direct, fair elections, the transparency of which was attested to by the whole world.

“Resist them; if they fight you, fight back, if they kill you, you are in paradise, if you kill them, there is no blood money,” he said.

More talk of this paradise shit and killing one another? This is what clerics teach the followers? Extremely sad.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/update-al-azhar-cleric-encourages-fighting-demonstrators-sparks-controversy

[Kathianne]

Jafar, you offer only dilemmas, 'Egyptians know not to trust Egyptian news sources, so should you.' 'LOL! An outside newsource? We're supposed to take that seriously?'

No, we're supposed to 'trust' two guys on a messageboard, without cameras because of restrictions. :rolleyes:

Sorry, what I do for information is try to gather several sources and look for dots. When AP or Reuters is the only source, I wait for more. Like the Egyptians, I have a clue on biased sources.

[jimnyc]

And are crucifixions in general that far fetched to have had happen in Egypt? The courts say otherwise. And I hope Reuters is a source we can all agree on is reputable, but this same story is the same with every other major media. So it's not just that wackos would grab someone and crucify them, but the actual justice system in Egypt delivers it as a prescribed punishment. So if the government themselves deliver it as punishment, is it really so hard to believe, and is it really a stretch, to think that citizens would behave similarly?


(Reuters) - A Saudi court of cassation upheld a ruling to behead and crucify a 22-year-old man convicted of raping five children and leaving one of them to die in the desert, newspapers reported on Tuesday.

The convict was arrested earlier this year after a seven-year old boy helped police in their investigation. The child left in the desert after the rape was three years old, Okaz newspaper said.

International rights groups have accused the kingdom, the birthplace of Islam, of applying draconian justice, beheading murderers, rapists and drug traffickers in public. So far this year about 40 people have been executed in Saudi Arabia.

In Saudi Arabia, crucifixion means tying the body of the convict to wooden beams to be displayed to the public after beheading.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/11/03/idINIndia-43639120091103

[jimnyc]

And another story, this one direct from Egypt again:


The People’s Assembly Proposals and Complaints Committee discussed in a meeting Tuesday a bill proposed by MP Adel Azzazy from the Salafi-oriented Nour Party that would apply Islamic law for certain crimes.

The proposed law calls for the application of “Heraba,” an Islamic penalty for criminal actions that include overt robbery, murder, forcible taking of property with a weapon and vandalizing public facilities.

The penalties according to Azzazy’s bill are execution in the case of murder, or cutting one arm and one leg from opposite sides of the culprit’s body in the cases of robbery and forcible taking of property. If the taking of possessions is accompanied by murder, the penalty would be death or crucifixion, to be determined by the judge.

The bill also stipulates imprisonment for intimidating citizens, and that the prison sentence will end when the felon repents.

These penalties would only be imposed on adult, mentally stable wrongdoers who either commit the crimes or assist in carrying them out, according to the bill.

Policemen are entitled to treat felons with force after warning them, and are also entitled to shoot them dead. But if they surrender or are wounded, policemen are obliged not to hurt them, the proposed law says.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/mp-proposes-sharia-punishments-murder-theft-crimes

[jimnyc]

Disregard the last 2 posts - NEVER HAPPENED! :lol::lol::laugh2:

[jafar00]

My continued comments on what is going on in Egypt, and even the crucifixions, have nothing to do with the palace. The article might have started with that place in mind, but I've made it clear in many of my posts now that I am not talking about the palace. Shit, the post of mine that you quoted states as much, but you continue to try and stick to the palace, as if you confirm that's not true, then it can't possibly be true anywhere else. Seriously, do you read before replying? Did you you not see, in the very post that you quoted and replied to, that I made that clarification? You guys will argue what I say and continue with the one thing you can confirm, knowing you have no defense for the many articles out there saying this is happening elsewhere. There's little point in having a back and forth if you're going to stick your finger in your ears and hold your hands over your eyes when reading my posts. I too can completely ignore what you write, but it wouldn't make for a decent discussion, would it?

Ok. There are no crucifixions happening in Egypt. ok?


And with the debate of crucifixions aside - how is Egypt handling opponents of Morsi, or those who may protest? This is direct from a site in Egypt...



More talk of this paradise shit and killing one another? This is what clerics teach the followers? Extremely sad.

http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/update-al-azhar-cleric-encourages-fighting-demonstrators-sparks-controversy

Well, I'm sure abso and I will update you on how that turns out. I will be in Zamalek tomorrow not far from Tahrir.

edit: Al Masri Al Yawm is not a trustworthy source of information either so you know.

[jimnyc]

Ok. There are no crucifixions happening in Egypt. ok?

According to the judicial system in Egypt, it does happen. I suppose whether or not citizens are following suit, as to what the government themselves prescribe, is yet to be seen for sure. But given the fact that it's a form of punishment recognized by their government, why would it be so hard for us to believe that others may do so throughout the country? Or are you going to pull an abso and proclaim the things I have posted above "never happened"?

[jimnyc]

edit: Al Masri Al Yawm is not a trustworthy source of information either so you know.

I'm confident that anything that proves the atrocities in Egypt, or the government themselves stating crucifixion is a form of punishment, is all from bogus sources. :rolleyes:

Anyway, proof of crucifixions in the past and the government handing down such punishment, is a matter of record from their court system. This is carried throughout major media throughout the world and cannot be disputed.

** I have NEVER seen people toss away just about EVERY source shown their way. That's a very easy way to "win" a debate, just claim every single source is bogus.

[jafar00]

And are crucifixions in general that far fetched to have had happen in Egypt? The courts say otherwise. And I hope Reuters is a source we can all agree on is reputable, but this same story is the same with every other major media. So it's not just that wackos would grab someone and crucify them, but the actual justice system in Egypt delivers it as a prescribed punishment. So if the government themselves deliver it as punishment, is it really so hard to believe, and is it really a stretch, to think that citizens would behave similarly?



http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/11/03/idINIndia-43639120091103

Sorry but Saudi Arabia is not a province in Egypt. Despite that, how could you disagree with such a punishment after he rapes 5 children and leaves one to die in the desert? This is one punishment the Saudis got right.


And another story, this one direct from Egypt again:



http://www.egyptindependent.com/news/mp-proposes-sharia-punishments-murder-theft-crimes

Al Masri Al Yawm again. This one sounds like the death sex story. As fake as you can get. This news source is discredited as a mouthpiece of the former regime. It is intentionally spreading disinfo to discredit Morsi and the elected government. They represent people who wanted Ahmed Shafiq as President.

[jimnyc]

2 Baghdad Bob's in one thread! Awesome! I will remember that for the future, debates just get put down immediately if I don't like the sources! I have NEVER seen anyone outside of Muslims just outright deny everything that happens in their world, no matter how much proof is presented. That's cool though, ignorance doesn't change the truth.

As for Saudi - yes, despicable crimes. We have despicable crimes here too. We also have death penalties. But crucifixions are not one of them. We moved away from the stone ages, well, when the stone ages ended. Although I will admit, I have no sympathy for the man, none at all.

But it is funny to see people try so hard to deny such antiquated and horrific penalties could possibly be imposed in this day and age, and then to support it and applaud it in the very next breath. But I'm sure you'll be back to deny you ever supported such a penalty.

[jafar00]

2 Baghdad Bob's in one thread! Awesome! I will remember that for the future, debates just get put down immediately if I don't like the sources! I have NEVER seen anyone outside of Muslims just outright deny everything that happens in their world, no matter how much proof is presented. That's cool though, ignorance doesn't change the truth.

What proof? There are not nor are there ever going to be any crucifixions in Egypt. There is absolutely no evidence to support it. Sky News Arabic has since removed the crucifiction story. I guess they found evidence that it is fake.


As for Saudi - yes, despicable crimes. We have despicable crimes here too. We also have death penalties. But crucifixions are not one of them. We moved away from the stone ages, well, when the stone ages ended. Although I will admit, I have no sympathy for the man, none at all.

But it is funny to see people try so hard to deny such antiquated and horrific penalties could possibly be imposed in this day and age, and then to support it and applaud it in the very next breath. But I'm sure you'll be back to deny you ever supported such a penalty.

Who knows if the Saudi story is fake or not too, but considering the crime I would crucify the scumbag by his nutsack as a form of mercy.

[jimnyc]

Have a nice day, Jafar. And I mean that! But I won't continue to waste my time discussing issues with people who are going to toss aside everything brought to the table because they don't like the sources. Hell, the Saudi story is held by just about every major and respectable news station out there, and you even doubt that one. I gave it a go, but I'm not wasting any more time, at least not on people that dismiss everything.

[Voted4Reagan]

I didn't respond because I don't want to give your delusions and lies about Islam any legitimacy.



Yet another story sourced from Christian or anti government rags. There is no independent verification of this story.



I reject your analysis of the hadith. I can't comment on it except to say that in order to understand hadith, you need years of study. They should never be taken at face value.
When was it said?
What are the circumstances surrounding it?
Are there supporting texts?
Is the narrator reliable?
Is there more than one narrator to back it up?
Was it negated by a later hadith?
Was it revealed before a surah in the Qur'aan abrogated it?
There is also scholarly opinion that such hadiths refer only to Muslims who rejected their faith THEN turned against Muslims in the time when the Muslims were being persecuted and attacked in Mecca and Medina.

I don't expect you to accept my explanation since you may be of those who are so totally against Islam that your eyes and your heart are closed to any reasonable argument, but I would ask you to think before accepting analyses of hadith from websites.



OMG LOL why do you accept these outlandish stories in the first place? Naked people crucified in the trees surrounding the presidential palace? There aren't that many trees there to begin with and there are guards every 10 feet or so.
I have seen the palace with my own eyes several times this week, abso has seen it, and many other people I know in Cairo have seen it too. Nobody has seen any naked crucifixions.

Why can't you accept this is a fabrication?

a simple yes or no.....

Do you accept or reject the HADITH that I quoted?

It is very straight forward and I even quoted it in Arabic...

So I ask you again... DO YOU ACCEPT OR REJECT IT?

There is no other answer...

ACCEPT OR REJECT it as written and Quoted?

[jimnyc]

** NSFW ** And not safe for the weak of heart either. And this is for the reading of those with a desire to learn what happens elsewhere, not for those who will deny it, even with video proof of these types of atrocities.

1) This is Muslims in Tunisia, news delivered by Tawfiq Okasha, whom we are not supposed to believe. I've cleaned up the text the best I could. The video is absolute proof of what people do in some areas to those who commit apostasy.


Liberal talk show host Tawfiq Okasha recently appeared on "Egypt Today," airing a video of Muslims slicing off a young man's head off forthe crime of apostasy -- in this instance, the crime of converting to Christianity and refusing to renounce it. The video—be warned, it is immensely graphic—can be seen here (the actual execution appears from minute 1:13-4:00). For those who prefer not to view it, a summary follows: A young man appears held down by masked men. His head is pulled back, with a knife to his throat. He does not struggle and appears resigned to his fate. Speaking in Arabic, the background speaker, or "narrator," chants a number of Muslim prayers and supplications, mostly condemning
Christianity, which, because of the Trinity, is referred to as a polytheistic faith: "Let Allah be avenged on the polytheist apostate"; "Allah empower your religion, make it victorious against the polytheists"; "Allah, defeat the infidels at the hands of the Muslims," and "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger." Then, to cries of "Allahu Akbar!"— Allah is greater!"—the masked man holding the knife to the apostate's throat begins to slice away,
severing the head completely after approximately one minute of graphic knife-carving, as the victim drowns in blood. Finally, the severed head is held aloft to more Islamic slogans of victory. Visibly distraught, Tawfiq Okasha, the host, asks: "Is this Islam? Does Islam call for this? How is Islam related to this matter?...These are the images that are disseminated throughout the electronic media in Europe and America…. Can you imagine?" Then, in reference to Egypt's
Muslim Brotherhood and Salafis, whose political influence has grown tremendously, he asks, "How are such people supposed to govern?" Only the other day, a prominent Egyptian Salafi leader -- referring to the canonical hadiths, including Muhammad's command, "Whoever leaves his religion, kill him" -- openly stated that no Muslim has the right to apostatize, or leave Islam. Any number of Islamic legal manuals make explicitly clear that apostasy is a capital crime, punishable by death. The first "righteous caliph," a model of Muslim piety, had tens of thousands of former Muslims slaughtered—including by burning, beheading, and crucifixion—simply because they tried to break away from Islam.
According to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, the most authoritative reference work on Islam in the English language, "there is unanimity that the male apostate must be put to death." Finally, a word on the "prayers" or supplications to Allah made by the Muslim executioners in the video: these are standard and formulaic. In other words, these are not just masked, anonymous butchers who pray to Allah as they engage in acts of cutting throats and holding up heads, these are top-ranking Muslim leaders, who appear regularly on TV, who invoke such hate-filled prayers. See here for examples of Muslims supplicating Allah to strike infidels with cancer and disease "till they pray for death and do not receive it;"
there are even formalized prayers in Mecca, blasted on megaphones as Muslims honor their obligation to go on a pilgrimage at least once in their lives, supplicating Allah to make the lives of Christians and Jews "hostage to misery; drape them with endless despair, unrelenting pain and unremitting ailment; fill their lives with sorrow and pain and end their lives in humiliation and oppression."
"Is this Islam?" You decide.

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2) Not surprising that it is Hamas, but this is about them legalizing crucifixions. This also includes an article from alaribiya, which has been translated.


Hamas Legalizes Crucifixion

Hamas having decided that stoning girls to death is not brutal enough, has enacted a law legalizing crucifixion. Public decapitation for gays and rape victims wasn't bad enough... Now they can look forward to being nailed to a cross and left hanging until they slowly suffocate to death. This will be happening, in modern Palestine. Would it be acceptable anywhere outside the middle-east?...
--------------------------------------
Hamas Enacts Islamic Laws, Including: Amputation, Crucifixion, Lashes

Hamas members of the Palestinian Legislative Council in Gaza have approved a new bill "to implement Koranic punishments," including hand amputation, crucifixion, corporal punishment and execution. Drinking, owning or producing wine is punished by 40 lashes, while drinking in public adds three months' imprisonment. Several laws are directed against Hamas's Palestinian rivals, including a law intended to inhibit non-Hamas negotiators by sentencing to death anyone who was "appointed to negotiate with a foreign government on a Palestinian issue and negotiated against Palestinians' interest."

The following is the description as it appears today on the Al Arabiya website:

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/12/24/62699.html

Headline: Hamas approves law of punishment by lashes, amputating hands, crucifying, and execution - in order to implement the Islamic Sharia law. Hamas members of the Palestinian Legislative Council approved in its meeting in Gaza a new bill proposed by the Hamas who have a majority in the Legislative Council, whose purpose is "to implement Koranic punishments."

The newspaper Al Hayat of London reported on Dec. 24, 2008, that this step is seen as unprecedented, and has brought criticism and concern from human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip, especially as this law includes punishments by lashes, cutting off of hands, crucifixion, and execution... The language of the law proposes "primary and secondary" laws. Primary laws include: "Koranic laws, blood revenge, lashes, crucifixion, and execution ..."

The text stresses: "These punishments will not be canceled or pardoned ... except if pardoned by the victim himself... Section 59 of the law establishes that "punishment of death will be enacted on any Palestinian who intentionally does one of the following: Raised a weapon against Palestine on behalf of the enemy during war, was appointed to negotiate with a foreign government on a Palestinian issue and negotiated against Palestinians' interest, performed a hostile action against a foreign country in a way that endangers Palestine in war or in harming political relations, served a foreign army in time of war, advised or helped soldiers to enlist in this army, weakened the spirit or the force of resistance of the people, or spied against Palestine especially during war."

The punishment of lashes appears in many sections of the law. Section 84 states that: "Whoever drinks wine, owns or produces wine will be punished with 40 lashes if he is Muslim, and anyone who drinks wine, or angers another person [with wine], or causes him distress when drinking wine in a public place, or goes to a public place while drunk, will be punished with no less than 40 lashes and imprisonment for the minimum of three months." [Al-Arabiya, Dec. 24, 2008]

3) Beheading and Crucifixion of a murderer and raper in Saudi Arabia, in case there was other doubters that this crap happens in SA. Again, don't watch the video, albeit short, if you don't want to see gore that these people are met with for their crimes.

Friday afternoon Saudi authorities publicly beheaded and crucified a Sudanese after he confessed on breaking in a family house and killing a women and raping her, also stealing about 100000 dollars. he also opened the gas pipe in the house trying to kill the rest of the family. it's uncommon to publicly crucify murderers. but the enormity of the crime led to this. he will be hanged there till sunset.

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[jafar00]

a simple yes or no.....

Do you accept or reject the HADITH that I quoted?

It is very straight forward and I even quoted it in Arabic...

So I ask you again... DO YOU ACCEPT OR REJECT IT?

There is no other answer...

ACCEPT OR REJECT it as written and Quoted?

Simple. I reject it in the way that it was presented and without sufficient knowledge to determine it's applicability and it's relevance to the times today. The fact that the Qur'aan in my opinion invalidates it as it has many ayas talking about apostasy but not specifying any punishment or even clearly stating that apostasy is a loss for those who go astray and telling the Prophet (saw) that he is just a warner to merely deliver a message.


** NSFW ** And not safe for the weak of heart either. And this is for the reading of those with a desire to learn what happens elsewhere, not for those who will deny it, even with video proof of these types of atrocities.

1) This is Muslims in Tunisia, news delivered by Tawfiq Okasha, whom we are not supposed to believe. I've cleaned up the text the best I could. The video is absolute proof of what people do in some areas to those who commit apostasy.





2) Not surprising that it is Hamas, but this is about them legalizing crucifixions. This also includes an article from alaribiya, which has been translated.



3) Beheading and Crucifixion of a murderer and raper in Saudi Arabia, in case there was other doubters that this crap happens in SA. Again, don't watch the video, albeit short, if you don't want to see gore that these people are met with for their crimes.

Friday afternoon Saudi authorities publicly beheaded and crucified a Sudanese after he confessed on breaking in a family house and killing a women and raping her, also stealing about 100000 dollars. he also opened the gas pipe in the house trying to kill the rest of the family. it's uncommon to publicly crucify murderers. but the enormity of the crime led to this. he will be hanged there till sunset.


1) Tawfiq Okasha is a nutcase. Listen to him for your own amusement if you will, but don't think for one second that he is telling the truth in any way unless it supports his crazy agenda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD033hTFgQA

2) What does the USA do to those convicted of treason?
<sectioncontent>
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381

The method may differ but death is death.

3) A guy breaks into a house, rapes and kills a woman, then tries to kill the rest of those in the house with a gas explosion, and you call for leniency? Perhaps a slap on the wrist and sent on his way with a tuna fish sammich in case he gets hungry on the way home?
</sectioncontent> Sure the punishment in KSA is brutal, but what do you expect?

[Voted4Reagan]

Simple. I reject it in the way that it was presented and without sufficient knowledge to determine it's applicability and it's relevance to the times today. The fact that the Qur'aan in my opinion invalidates it as it has many ayas talking about apostasy but not specifying any punishment or even clearly stating that apostasy is a loss for those who go astray and telling the Prophet (saw) that he is just a warner to merely deliver a message.


Then In your words...Your Rejection of the Hadith makes you a HADITH REJECTOR... That means you are a Quranist in the Pure Form... That the Word of the Prophet is in and of itself the True word for your Faith.. It means you Reject the HADITHs as the mere writings of men that are to be rejected in the words of the Prophet.

A courageous Stance.... And I'll commend you for that... It could get you killed in some countries to say the least.!!

but dont ever try and play both sides of that coin... you cant accept the hadiths of MEN and also call for acceptence of the purity of the Quran...

that in and of itself is a true hypocrisy..... and you're not a HYPOCRITE....are you?

I guess all those years talking with the imams in Brooklyn really did rub off..... Some were quite interesting....

[jafar00]

Then In your words...Your Rejection of the Hadith makes you a HADITH REJECTOR... That means you are a Quranist in the Pure Form... That the Word of the Prophet is in and of itself the True word for your Faith.. It means you Reject the HADITHs as the mere writings of men that are to be rejected in the words of the Prophet.

A courageous Stance.... And I'll commend you for that... It could get you killed in some countries to say the least.!!

but dont ever try and play both sides of that coin... you cant accept the hadiths of MEN and also call for acceptence of the purity of the Quran...

that in and of itself is a true hypocrisy..... and you're not a HYPOCRITE....are you?

I guess all those years talking with the imams in Brooklyn really did rub off..... Some were quite interesting....

No I am not a hadith rejector at all. I just reject hadith as presented by non muslims or those of little education as a statement of fact twisted to support an agenda.
I do read collections such as Riyad as Saliheen which is a properly presented collection of hadiths with copious explanation of the meaning of what was said in each hadith fr laymen and within is guidance in all manner of things such as proper conduct in funerals or at the Mosque, proper manners/modesty, fair dealing in business etc... Other collections (Bukhari, Dawood, Sahih Muslim etc...) are for students of Hadith to use as a reference. Some hadiths are weak or flat out fabricated but included for study to recognise them.

That, and the fact that I have been told face to face by more than one Sheikh that there is no worldly punishment for leaving the fold of Islam and that there are some hadith (most of which are weak transmissions) that do mention the death penalty for leaving Islam, but that such a penalty was for those who's apostasy was linked with treason, not for apostasy alone since matters of faith are between the person and Allah.

[Voted4Reagan]

No I am not a hadith rejector at all. I just reject hadith as presented by non muslims or those of little education as a statement of fact twisted to support an agenda.
I do read collections such as Riyad as Saliheen which is a properly presented collection of hadiths with copious explanation of the meaning of what was said in each hadith fr laymen and within is guidance in all manner of things such as proper conduct in funerals or at the Mosque, proper manners/modesty, fair dealing in business etc... Other collections (Bukhari, Dawood, Sahih Muslim etc...) are for students of Hadith to use as a reference. Some hadiths are weak or flat out fabricated but included for study to recognise them.

That, and the fact that I have been told face to face by more than one Sheikh that there is no worldly punishment for leaving the fold of Islam and that there are some hadith (most of which are weak transmissions) that do mention the death penalty for leaving Islam, but that such a penalty was for those who's apostasy was linked with treason, not for apostasy alone since matters of faith are between the person and Allah.

The Quran says the true word is that of Mohammed and that the words of MEN are to be rejected....

Yet Jafar now claims to NOT reject the writings of Men...

You have been proven a HYPOCRITE JAFAR... by trying to play both sides of the coin...

You cant say the Quran is the True word and Accept the Hadiths written by men at the same time...

You're a disgrace and a Hypocrite...and I proved it...

[Roo]

please don't make me started on throwing verse at you from the bible that incite hatred and call for the death of enemies.

C'mon, you and Jaffy need to fess up as to which Islamic Sect you ascribe to....and then we can start a discussion......so far neither of has been honest .

I repeat, if your "god" is so small he cannot survive the burning of the Koran...you probably should worship elsewhere.

[Roo]

No I am not a hadith rejector at all. I just reject hadith as presented by non muslims or those of little education as a statement of fact twisted to support an agenda.
I do read collections such as Riyad as Saliheen which is a properly presented collection of hadiths with copious explanation of the meaning of what was said in each hadith fr laymen and within is guidance in all manner of things such as proper conduct in funerals or at the Mosque, proper manners/modesty, fair dealing in business etc... Other collections (Bukhari, Dawood, Sahih Muslim etc...) are for students of Hadith to use as a reference. Some hadiths are weak or flat out fabricated but included for study to recognise them.

That, and the fact that I have been told face to face by more than one Sheikh that there is no worldly punishment for leaving the fold of Islam and that there are some hadith (most of which are weak transmissions) that do mention the death penalty for leaving Islam, but that such a penalty was for those who's apostasy was linked with treason, not for apostasy alone since matters of faith are between the person and Allah.

Your sect Jaffy, what is it?

[Voted4Reagan]

Your sect Jaffy, what is it?

Neither will Admit the truth... to do so would expose them further.

They play both sides against the middle...

It's the sign of one that wishes to be deceptive...

[jafar00]

The Quran says the true word is that of Mohammed and that the words of MEN are to be rejected....

Which aya says that?


Yet Jafar now claims to NOT reject the writings of Men...

You have been proven a HYPOCRITE JAFAR... by trying to play both sides of the coin...

You cant say the Quran is the True word and Accept the Hadiths written by men at the same time...

You're a disgrace and a Hypocrite...and I proved it...

The hadiths are recorded sayings and eyewitness accounts of what the Prophet Mohammed (saw) and his companions did. Without hadiths we wouldn't have guidance for everyday life such as etiquette, or how many rakahs to pray in each prayer or manners in eating, whether to grow a beard, wear hijab etc....

I am not a hypocrite at all. You are just misguided.


Your sect Jaffy, what is it?

Hi Skippy the bush kangaroo. I'm Muslim or to be more detailed, Sunni.

[Voted4Reagan]

I just reject hadith as presented by non muslims or those of little education as a statement of fact twisted to support an agenda.


Right there folks...That says it all...

In JAFARS book a NON-MUSLIM isn't capable of interpreting or understanding The Quran or the Hadiths.

I have NO AGENDA Jafar....But I despise hypocrisy and the twisting of peaceful precepts to further political ambition and to maintain dictatorial power over a people...

That is the state of ISLAM in todays world... Desperate Dictators, Imams and Mullahs that feel it necessary to twist the original Quranic writings to maintain control over a population that is kept in fear for their lives if they speak out publicly.

I worked for years in the Arab-American Community in Brooklyn... 6 days after 9-11-2001 I was in one of the biggest Mosques in the city. I wore my Fire Department EMT Jacket, A shirt Emblazoned with the American Flag and when I walked in the people (Mostly Women in Hijab and Burqas) cast their Eyes downward as if in shame...

I told them one thing... I told them to lift their heads and not be ashamed or afraid..I had known them and worked with them for years and that they certainly had nothing to be ashamed of....

I say MY understanding of Islam is excellent... Good People for the most part that have had a peaceful religion hijacked by a maniacal few that seek personal power and gain over the needs of its people..

The Tide will change Jafar.... The Dictators, Kings and Princes of the Muslim states are one by one falling... But the people of these countries need to be Vigilant that Radicals like Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood are no better than the dictators they replace...

The tide will Change Jafar... The people are tired of having the feet of Dictators on their Necks...

[taft2012]

I was talking to a guy at work yesterday who is from Egypt. He was telling me the problem with Morsi is the Muslim Brotherhood, and that since Morsi is not especially high on the Muslim Brotherhood leadership structure he's taking orders from those higher than him. Among those higher than him in the Muslim Brotherhood is a guy from Hamas. Since Morsi's ascension to the leadership of Egypt a flood of Palestinian Hamas members have flooded into the country.

Hamas raided into Egypt from Israel, via Sinai, and killed 16 Egyptian soldiers. Israel allowed Egypt to send some troops into Sinai to clear out the Hamas guerrillas.

The fear the guy I was talking to has is that Morsi will take advantage of Israel allowing the Egyptian troops into Sinai to clear out Hamas, and use the opportunity to try to keep them there, in violation of the peace agreement. He believes that will be the trigger to war.

[Roo]

Which aya says that?



The hadiths are recorded sayings and eyewitness accounts of what the Prophet Mohammed (saw) and his companions did. Without hadiths we wouldn't have guidance for everyday life such as etiquette, or how many rakahs to pray in each prayer or manners in eating, whether to grow a beard, wear hijab etc....

I am not a hypocrite at all. You are just misguided.



Hi Skippy the bush kangaroo. I'm Muslim or to be more detailed, Sunni.

Skippy the bush kangaroo.....thats it....thats the best you've "o learned defender of the truth"?

[taft2012]

Kind of amazing. Muslims can not comprehend how we believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, who they think was a mere man.

Yet they worship Mohammad, a mere man, on a level beyond divinity.

[jafar00]

That is the state of ISLAM in todays world... Desperate Dictators, Imams and Mullahs that feel it necessary to twist the original Quranic writings to maintain control over a population that is kept in fear for their lives if they speak out publicly.

According to you, Morsi is a radical and the Ikwhan are extremists, yet people in Egypt are more free to speak out now than when the secular Mubarak ruled with an iron fist. Where is the irony?


I worked for years in the Arab-American Community in Brooklyn... 6 days after 9-11-2001 I was in one of the biggest Mosques in the city. I wore my Fire Department EMT Jacket, A shirt Emblazoned with the American Flag and when I walked in the people (Mostly Women in Hijab and Burqas) cast their Eyes downward as if in shame...

I told them one thing... I told them to lift their heads and not be ashamed or afraid..I had known them and worked with them for years and that they certainly had nothing to be ashamed of....

I say MY understanding of Islam is excellent... Good People for the most part that have had a peaceful religion hijacked by a maniacal few that seek personal power and gain over the needs of its people..

If you understand Islam as you say, you would understand that a woman averting her eyes from you, especially in the Mosque is not a sign of shame, but of modesty.

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty (24:31)

They probably thought you were quite handsome in your uniform, but lowered their eyes so as not to have thoughts of attraction to you which would be inappropriate especially in a place of worship.


The Tide will change Jafar.... The Dictators, Kings and Princes of the Muslim states are one by one falling... But the people of these countries need to be Vigilant that Radicals like Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood are no better than the dictators they replace...

The tide will Change Jafar... The people are tired of having the feet of Dictators on their Necks...

Yes, the tide is changing, and with the exception of Libya, the people have chosen "Islamists" to lead them. The dictators that are falling are all secular. The people want to live by Islamic law.


I was talking to a guy at work yesterday who is from Egypt. He was telling me the problem with Morsi is the Muslim Brotherhood, and that since Morsi is not especially high on the Muslim Brotherhood leadership structure he's taking orders from those higher than him. Among those higher than him in the Muslim Brotherhood is a guy from Hamas. Since Morsi's ascension to the leadership of Egypt a flood of Palestinian Hamas members have flooded into the country.

Ask him about the 16,000 dangerous prisoners who were set free by Mubarak at the height of the revolution. It is widely believed in Egypt that it is they who are causing the trouble in Sinai and in other parts of the country that have seen thugs attack people.

[taft2012]

Ask him about the 16,000 dangerous prisoners who were set free by Mubarak at the height of the revolution. It is widely believed in Egypt that it is they who are causing the trouble in Sinai and in other parts of the country that have seen thugs attack people.

He hates Mubarak too, so I doubt he was trying to shift the blame "from-to" either party. He's kind of what you like to present yourself as; a reasonable rational Muslim.

Except he has the ability to call the shots realistically, unlike you.

Meanwhile, it sounds like you and the Brotherhood are again laying the work for a false flag attack. "It wasn't us who raided those Israeli settlements from Sinai, it was the prisoners who Mubarak freed!"

We've heard this Muslim song and dance so many times. It only works on the most brain-dead, who don't need convincing to hate Israel anyway. So why bother making yourselves look silly?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

According to you, Morsi is a radical and the Ikwhan are extremists, yet people in Egypt are more free to speak out now than when the secular Mubarak ruled with an iron fist. Where is the irony?



If you understand Islam as you say, you would understand that a woman averting her eyes from you, especially in the Mosque is not a sign of shame, but of modesty.

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty (24:31)

They probably thought you were quite handsome in your uniform, but lowered their eyes so as not to have thoughts of attraction to you which would be inappropriate especially in a place of worship.



Yes, the tide is changing, and with the exception of Libya, the people have chosen "Islamists" to lead them. The dictators that are falling are all secular. The people want to live by Islamic law.




Ask him about the 16,000 dangerous prisoners who were set free by Mubarak at the height of the revolution. It is widely believed in Egypt that it is they who are causing the trouble in Sinai and in other parts of the country that have seen thugs attack people.

Sure, no way it could be any of the Muslim Brotherhood ! Such angels as they are.-:rolleyes:
Sure the dictators were all secular and thats why obama supported the revolution in each country -EXCEPT-
Iran where the ruling body was a muslim theocracy, there he flat out refused support of any kind. Just posted to shed light on his love of muslims because he is one in hiding! Too many Americans are too stupid to see that glaring example and his betrayal of Israel for what it is. We see how those that just want to live by Islamic law then abuse and run out all others . I notice that you said, Islamic law rather than Sharia which is the ONLY law Islam recognises. Why the clever wording?-Tyr

[jafar00]

Kind of amazing. Muslims can not comprehend how we believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, who they think was a mere man.

Yet they worship Mohammad, a mere man, on a level beyond divinity.

Your lack of knowledge about Islam is showing :)

We reject the trinity (which is a concept not in any bible manuscript before the 15th century) as we believe in the oneness of God. We reject the idea that he had a son, or that this son is really God (God gave conceived himself?), or that he is also some mysterious spirit.

Jesus (as) was a messenger just like Adam, Moses, Abraham, Noah (as) etc.. before him and like Mohamed (saw) after him. We believe in and respect all of them.

We do not in any way worship Mohamed (saw) however we do love and respect him as the last of the Prophets sent to us with the same message as all of the other Prophets gave us.

We worship God alone as a singular God. There is only one.

[jimnyc]

1) Tawfiq Okasha is a nutcase. Listen to him for your own amusement if you will, but don't think for one second that he is telling the truth in any way unless it supports his crazy agenda.

ANd yet you outright ignore the contents of the video outside of the gent you don't like, showing absolute proof of what some poor guy was met with for apostasy. I don't care if you like the presenter or not, but the video of a head being cut off is hard to ignore. But I expect denials and excuses to be made. But I don't reply to you last evening as I wanted to take the video elsewhere and confirm what I was seeing, which was confirmed. And no on is saying YOU support this, or that this happens everywhere - but in this day and age, in some places, this is what happens to some people who try to leave or deny the Islamic faith.

[jimnyc]

In JAFARS book a NON-MUSLIM isn't capable of interpreting or understanding The Quran or the Hadiths.

It's simple then... I see many Muslims, jafar and abso included, who rather than address topics in front of them, try to bring the Bible into the discussion and make claims about "Oh, well the Bible says this..." I suppose we can just reply to them that they are clueless, that only Christians can understand or interpret the Bible.

[jimnyc]

According to you, Morsi is a radical and the Ikwhan are extremists, yet people in Egypt are more free to speak out now than when the secular Mubarak ruled with an iron fist. Where is the irony?

The irony is in what someone considers to be "freedom", or what things they are free to speak out about. "You can say this, but don't say that" isn't freedom to me. And if ANY punishment which includes beating/maiming/death is given for merely one speaking their opinion, that is NOT freedom. Is it possible that it's better than a prior dictator? Of course, but that hardly makes it a bed of roses. Besides, this is just the beginning and they know they are being watched by the entire world. I can't wait until full fledged Shariah Law is implemented and the cameras are turned off. You couldn't pay me enough to live in a land under strict Sharia Law, not even trillions of dollars. Can't spend it when you're dead for speaking out or wanting to covert to another faith.

[jafar00]

ANd yet you outright ignore the contents of the video outside of the gent you don't like, showing absolute proof of what some poor guy was met with for apostasy. I don't care if you like the presenter or not, but the video of a head being cut off is hard to ignore. But I expect denials and excuses to be made. But I don't reply to you last evening as I wanted to take the video elsewhere and confirm what I was seeing, which was confirmed. And no on is saying YOU support this, or that this happens everywhere - but in this day and age, in some places, this is what happens to some people who try to leave or deny the Islamic faith.

I don't ignore such videos. I condemn it. But Tawfiq is a known nutcase. Using a video made by some extremists is like me using a video of some violence in the US to condemn Christians because white people are in the video. It makes no sense.

Anyway, Tawfiq is in prison on charges of threatening to kill the President and for contacting the Israelis trying to sow discord between Egypt and Israel. He will go away for a long time.


The irony is in what someone considers to be "freedom", or what things they are free to speak out about. "You can say this, but don't say that" isn't freedom to me. And if ANY punishment which includes beating/maiming/death is given for merely one speaking their opinion, that is NOT freedom. Is it possible that it's better than a prior dictator? Of course, but that hardly makes it a bed of roses. Besides, this is just the beginning and they know they are being watched by the entire world. I can't wait until full fledged Shariah Law is implemented and the cameras are turned off. You couldn't pay me enough to live in a land under strict Sharia Law, not even trillions of dollars. Can't spend it when you're dead for speaking out or wanting to covert to another faith.

Are you upset that the people of Egypt rose up against a tyrannical dictator and won the freedom to speak out and to elect whoever they want? Muslims want to live with Sharia as the form of law.

[jimnyc]

I don't ignore such videos. I condemn it. But Tawfiq is a known nutcase. Using a video made by some extremists is like me using a video of some violence in the US to condemn Christians because white people are in the video. It makes no sense.

Anyway, Tawfiq is in prison on charges of threatening to kill the President and for contacting the Israelis trying to sow discord between Egypt and Israel. He will go away for a long time.

Your first reply was condemning the broadcaster and not a peep about the murder that took place as a result of apostasy. Now you replied a 2nd time, and still don't take the opportunity to condemn, or acknowledge, that in some areas, Muslims still offer a punishment of death for apostasy, as shown in the film.


Are you upset that the people of Egypt rose up against a tyrannical dictator and won the freedom to speak out and to elect whoever they want? Muslims want to live with Sharia as the form of law.

Upset? Nope, disgusted. But if people want to live under such laws that prescribe sickening penalties from the stone ages, for offenses that would likely be a small $ fine elsewhere, or a slap on the wrist, so be it. Speaking out is great, when you can do so in literally a free fashion without punishment. But it's not "full" freedom, IMO, when certain things being spoken out could lead to prison, abuse or even death.

[Voted4Reagan]

It's simple then... I see many Muslims, jafar and abso included, who rather than address topics in front of them, try to bring the Bible into the discussion and make claims about "Oh, well the Bible says this..." I suppose we can just reply to them that they are clueless, that only Christians can understand or interpret the Bible.

Unfortunately...The Quran, The Bible and the Torah and Talmud are all very similar in their writings with whole section being almost Identical to each other...

The 3 great mono-theistic religions all sprouted from one another....No matter how much the Muslim Theocracy tries to deny it...

The Muslims, Christians and Jews all spring from the same basic faith with some elemental differences...

Christians and Jews long ago gave up attacking others in the name of G-D...

Islam needs to learn this lesson as well....

[jimnyc]

Another example of the out of touch punishments - jailing a CHILD for blasphemy. And apparently assaulted badly by other Muslims. I know, "DIDN'T HAPPEN" or "They aren't real Muslims"... fact is, this kind of shit happens in a lot of Islamic communities, no matter how many times it is denied or having various excuses made for it.


ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - A Pakistani Christian girl detained on accusations of defaming Islam was too frightened to speak in a prison where she is being held in solitary confinement for her safety, an activist who said he visited her said on Thursday.

Religious and secular groups worldwide have protested over the arrest last week of Rimsha Masih, accused by Muslim neighbors of burning Islamic religious texts.

The case has put another spotlight on Pakistan's anti-blasphemy law, which rights groups say dangerously discriminates against the conservative Muslim country's tiny minority groups.

Christian activist Xavier William said he visited Masih at a police station where she was first held, and then this week in prison.

"She was frightened and traumatised," William told Reuters.

"She was assaulted and in very bad shape. She had bruises on her face and on her hands," he added, referring to an attack by a mob in her village on the edge of Islamabad after she was accused of blasphemy.

Under the blasphemy law, anyone who speaks ill of Islam and the Prophet Mohammad commits a crime and faces the death penalty, but activists say vague terminology has led to its misuse.

http://news.yahoo.com/pakistani-girl-accused-blasphemy-traumatized-activist-101254340.html

[Roo]

I don't ignore such videos. I condemn it. But Tawfiq is a known nutcase. Using a video made by some extremists is like me using a video of some violence in the US to condemn Christians because white people are in the video. It makes no sense.

Anyway, Tawfiq is in prison on charges of threatening to kill the President and for contacting the Israelis trying to sow discord between Egypt and Israel. He will go away for a long time.



Are you upset that the people of Egypt rose up against a tyrannical dictator and won the freedom to speak out and to elect whoever they want? Muslims want to live with Sharia as the form of law.

So of course you condemn ALL forms of Islam that promote and indeed practive violence against in the nam of their Religious beliefs and stand against them as enemies....correct?

[Roo]

Sure, no way it could be any of the Muslim Brotherhood ! Such angels as they are.-:rolleyes:
Sure the dictators were all secular and thats why obama supported the revolution in each country -EXCEPT-
Iran where the ruling body was a muslim theocracy, there he flat out refused support of any kind. Just posted to shed light on his love of muslims because he is one in hiding! Too many Americans are too stupid to see that glaring example and his betrayal of Israel for what it is. We see how those that just want to live by Islamic law then abuse and run out all others . I notice that you said, Islamic law rather than Sharia which is the ONLY law Islam recognises. Why the clever wording?-Tyr

The MB is a violent, hate filled orgnaization who collborated with Nazi Germany in WWII.
As for his "clever" wording he is a deceitful, dishonest man acting as an apologist for his "brethren".

[jafar00]

Your first reply was condemning the broadcaster and not a peep about the murder that took place as a result of apostasy. Now you replied a 2nd time, and still don't take the opportunity to condemn, or acknowledge, that in some areas, Muslims still offer a punishment of death for apostasy, as shown in the film.

Sure there are bad people. It may be that the murderers in the film are Muslim, or perhaps they are MOSSAD agents posing as Muslims to make us look bad. You just can't tell. Either way, the video depicts a crime no matter what rule of law you like to judge it under.


But it's not "full" freedom, IMO, when certain things being spoken out could lead to prison, abuse or even death.

Do you disagree with the reason why tawfiq was arrested?


Christians and Jews long ago gave up attacking others in the name of G-D...

Islam needs to learn this lesson as well....

So the creation of the Zionist state of Israel by attacking and expelling others in the belief that God gave them the land is an example of Jews giving up attacking people? Gimme a break.


Another example of the out of touch punishments - jailing a CHILD for blasphemy. And apparently assaulted badly by other Muslims. I know, "DIDN'T HAPPEN" or "They aren't real Muslims"... fact is, this kind of shit happens in a lot of Islamic communities, no matter how many times it is denied or having various excuses made for it.

These people are uneducated. They don't even know their own religion, can't read and just accept whatever nonsense a bearded guy tells them. It's no wonder they regress into ancient tribal ways.

[Voted4Reagan]

According to you, Morsi is a radical and the Ikwhan are extremists, yet people in Egypt are more free to speak out now than when the secular Mubarak ruled with an iron fist. Where is the irony?



If you understand Islam as you say, you would understand that a woman averting her eyes from you, especially in the Mosque is not a sign of shame, but of modesty.

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty (24:31)

They probably thought you were quite handsome in your uniform, but lowered their eyes so as not to have thoughts of attraction to you which would be inappropriate especially in a place of worship.

.

WRONG... These people knew me for 15years prior to 9-11 and always looked at me in the Eyes... We respected each others culture but I was never before greeted with eyes cast down at the floor... not from any of them...

It had nothing to do with Quranic verse... so dont go there....

[jimnyc]

When in doubt, just say "never happened" and claim it to be perhaps a setup from the enemy. I like that. :lol:

[Roo]

Sure there are bad people. It may be that the murderers in the film are Muslim, or perhaps they are MOSSAD agents posing as Muslims to make us look bad. You just can't tell. Either way, the video depicts a crime no matter what rule of law you like to judge it under.



Do you disagree with the reason why tawfiq was arrested?



So the creation of the Zionist state of Israel by attacking and expelling others in the belief that God gave them the land is an example of Jews giving up attacking people? Gimme a break.



These people are uneducated. They don't even know their own religion, can't read and just accept whatever nonsense a bearded guy tells them. It's no wonder they regress into ancient tribal ways.

How many groups now have you claimed "uneducated"?
You hide behind that every time you get cornered.

[Voted4Reagan]

So the creation of the Zionist state of Israel by attacking and expelling others in the belief that God gave them the land is an example of Jews giving up attacking people? Gimme a break.





A little background that Most Muslim Nations dont include in their teachings..

See.... back in 1947 BEFORE Israel became a Nation... A man gave a speech here in Lake Success, Long Island, NY at what was the Temporary headquarters of the United Nations.

The Mans name was DAVID BEN GURION...

I quote to you the final Paragraphs of the speech he gave to the world that day...

************************************************** ************************************************** *

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations.

WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

WE APPEAL to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews of Eretz-Israel in the tasks of immigration and upbuilding and to stand by them in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream - the redemption of Israel.

PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE "ROCK OF ISRAEL", WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR, 5708 (14TH MAY,1948).

************************************************** ************************************************** **

Ben Gurion offered from the first day a spirit of equality and Cooperation .... He offered to all Arab Nation the hand of Friendship.

The Arab Nations knocked that hand away and started the wars that continue to this day....

Don't lecture about ZIONISM..... Perhaps it would be best if the Arab World take up Ben Gurions offer even now... I am sure the Current Government would listen quite intently... As all they wanted from day one was peace... but were greeted with Bombs and Tanks.

[jimnyc]

How many groups now have you claimed "uneducated"?

The endless excuses for fellow Muslims is hilarious. Oh, wait, they aren't Muslims if they do anything bad. Not only that, likely Jews posing as Muslims! :lol:

[taft2012]

Your lack of knowledge about Islam is showing :)

We do not in any way worship Mohamed (saw) however we do love and respect him as the last of the Prophets sent to us with the same message as all of the other Prophets gave us.

We worship God alone as a singular God. There is only one.

I freely admit I am not up-to-snuff on matters of Islam, however I *do* know what "blasphemy" is.

And when I see Muslims around the world screaming "Blasphemy!" about a cartoon drawn of Mohammad, that tells me you are wrong when you say he is not worshiped as a deity.

Same for the book, etc., indicating you also worship inanimate objects.

Same for the statues of Buddha you blew up in Afghanistan.

"Blashphemy" is reserved for deities, not men or inanimate objects. Sorry, you're 100% wrong.

[jafar00]

How many groups now have you claimed "uneducated"?
You hide behind that every time you get cornered.

Many Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters have no idea how to pray let alone read the Qur'aan. They are people led astray by some very bad people who have taken advantage of this. If the villagers were educated, they wouldn't be over reacting like this.

[Kathianne]

Many Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters have no idea how to pray let alone read the Qur'aan. They are people led astray by some very bad people who have taken advantage of this. If the villagers were educated, they wouldn't be over reacting like this.

and the excuse for the educated is?

[jafar00]

and the excuse for the educated is?

No excuse.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Many Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters have no idea how to pray let alone read the Qur'aan. They are people led astray by some very bad people who have taken advantage of this. If the villagers were educated, they wouldn't be over reacting like this.

Sorry, I don't believe that ignorance excuse. They are taught their relgionare they not? They read the Koran do they not? They have religious leaders that read and understand Islam do they not? Supposedly they have un dertsanding between right and wrong or doesnt Islam teach that? What is it with you Islamists that you excuse everything done in your relgion by justifying it with the Koran/Hadith or claim ignorance of your followers and when not doing that you deny it ?! Such massive ignorance claimed so damn often clearly would point to a great failing of Islam were it true! Or is the TRUTH simply that Islam teaches absolute intolerance?-Tyr

[Trigg]

It's easy to control ignorant people. That is the reason for the illiteracy in many countries.

Jafar and Abso like to claim that Egypt is not like most islamic countries, they're enlightened and educated.

Yet still they have instances like this going on. Honestly I don't understand why ANY woman would choose to remain muslim.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/018a4fc6-eddd-11e1-8d72-00144feab49a.html#axzz24W2sDSYb




Of the more than 1,000 women surveyed in the 2010 study “Clouds in Egypt’s Sky”, 83 per cent reported harassment and 46.1 per cent were subjected to harassment on a daily basis. Nearly two-thirds of men said they had harassed women.

Most of the violators deny harassing women or appear ignorant of the fact that hurling lewd obscenities or groping women is wrong or illegal

[jimnyc]

It's easy to control ignorant people. That is the reason for the illiteracy in many countries.

Jafar and Abso like to claim that Egypt is not like most islamic countries, they're enlightened and educated.

Yet still they have instances like this going on. Honestly I don't understand why ANY woman would choose to remain muslim.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/018a4fc6-eddd-11e1-8d72-00144feab49a.html#axzz24W2sDSYb

I showed them these stats from the red cross no less. Was told it never happened and/or the stats are inflated.


Of the more than 1,000 women surveyed in the 2010 study “Clouds in Egypt’s Sky”, 83 per cent reported harassment and 46.1 per cent were subjected to harassment on a daily basis. Nearly two-thirds of men said they had harassed women.

Most of the violators deny harassing women or appear ignorant of the fact that hurling lewd obscenities or groping women is wrong or illegal


And outright abuse is nearly the same stats. Men say they don't harass and abuse the women in Egypt "Come see for yourself". I guess all of these stories are made up. :rolleyes:

[jafar00]

It's easy to control ignorant people. That is the reason for the illiteracy in many countries.

Jafar and Abso like to claim that Egypt is not like most islamic countries, they're enlightened and educated.

Yet still they have instances like this going on. Honestly I don't understand why ANY woman would choose to remain muslim.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/018a4fc6-eddd-11e1-8d72-00144feab49a.html#axzz24W2sDSYb

I honestly don't know where these surveys are done and what they consider to be harassment. I did a survey of my own while bringing up the subject with a group of Egyptian women. According to the results of my survey 0% of women in Egypt experienced sexual harassment. I have seen videos of these "groups of men" attacking women and it is just teenage boys pinching the asses of girls. Now, in Egypt's Islamic society this is quite a serious assault and some of these boys are caught and punished, but in the US, would it be considered major? Most of the stuff that goes on between teenagers in the west would be scandalous in a society that considers even just holding hands to be too much contact before marriage. I didn't hold my wife's hand until we left the marriage registry and had the papers in our hands.

It is all subjective and in my opinion, blown all out of proportion by those who wish to attack Islam.

[taft2012]

I freely admit I am not up-to-snuff on matters of Islam, however I *do* know what "blasphemy" is.

And when I see Muslims around the world screaming "Blasphemy!" about a cartoon drawn of Mohammad, that tells me you are wrong when you say he is not worshiped as a deity.

Same for the book, etc., indicating you also worship inanimate objects.

Same for the statues of Buddha you blew up in Afghanistan.

"Blashphemy" is reserved for deities, not men or inanimate objects. Sorry, you're 100% wrong.

Maybe I missed it, but I would appreciate an explanation for this.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I honestly don't know where these surveys are done and what they consider to be harassment. I did a survey of my own while bringing up the subject with a group of Egyptian women. According to the results of my survey 0% of women in Egypt experienced sexual harassment. I have seen videos of these "groups of men" attacking women and it is just teenage boys pinching the asses of girls. Now, in Egypt's Islamic society this is quite a serious assault and some of these boys are caught and punished, but in the US, would it be considered major? Most of the stuff that goes on between teenagers in the west would be scandalous in a society that considers even just holding hands to be too much contact before marriage. I didn't hold my wife's hand until we left the marriage registry and had the papers in our hands.

It is all subjective and in my opinion, blown all out of proportion by those who wish to attack Islam.

Bolded above is pure poppycock! Zero harassment of women in muslim countries is a myth. Women there are often treated no more than property. Egypt is no exception. Somebody is lying , either you or the women you spoke to. Just that simple ! -Tyr

[jimnyc]

I honestly don't know where these surveys are done and what they consider to be harassment. I did a survey of my own while bringing up the subject with a group of Egyptian women. According to the results of my survey 0% of women in Egypt experienced sexual harassment. I have seen videos of these "groups of men" attacking women and it is just teenage boys pinching the asses of girls. Now, in Egypt's Islamic society this is quite a serious assault and some of these boys are caught and punished, but in the US, would it be considered major? Most of the stuff that goes on between teenagers in the west would be scandalous in a society that considers even just holding hands to be too much contact before marriage. I didn't hold my wife's hand until we left the marriage registry and had the papers in our hands.

It is all subjective and in my opinion, blown all out of proportion by those who wish to attack Islam.

The International Red Cross came up with these same numbers, or maybe this article is using these numbers. But they aren't exactly a US friendly company any more and condemn many actions of our government. They are an impartial party that simply goes around the world to help people in need. They have no agenda. In fact, I would say that since they go for free to help Muslims in Egypt, that they have a positive agenda to help. They make such reports and do their polling simply so that they can get the issues addressed and help people. You will find NOTHING to condemn the IRC about and NOTHING to show that they have an iota of an agenda towards Islam, other than to help.

But the endless denials continue. It's not that I find it odd, or just sickening, or shake my head at the ignorance. It's like watching a movie at this point, a comedy at that. Just deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny and that's what the character would come to be known for. It would be a running joke.

This reminds me of the obviously edited video of Baghdad Bob. He's on TV "I am here to tell you, the infidels lie, they are not within 1000 miles of Baghdad. They better bring body bags." - and in the background while he's talking you can see the American troops taking down the statue of Saddam! LOL

Sorry man, not much difference. How anyone can expect us to ignore mountains of articles, mountains of books, mountains of websites, mountains of Muslims themselves, mountains of photos and videos - we're just supposed to discard it as if it's all this huge lie. Not happening.

[taft2012]

Wasn't a CBS newswoman viciously molested in Egypt covering the Arab Spring?

[jafar00]

Wasn't a CBS newswoman viciously molested in Egypt covering the Arab Spring?

By thugs I believe.

[taft2012]

By thugs I believe.

... and of course like all the other news crews she and her co-workers slipped down a dark alley far from the police and military, who we all know would have stepped in and stopped this from happening...

:rolleyes:

[Trigg]

I honestly don't know where these surveys are done and what they consider to be harassment. I did a survey of my own while bringing up the subject with a group of Egyptian women. According to the results of my survey 0% of women in Egypt experienced sexual harassment. I have seen videos of these "groups of men" attacking women and it is just teenage boys pinching the asses of girls. Now, in Egypt's Islamic society this is quite a serious assault and some of these boys are caught and punished, but in the US, would it be considered major? Most of the stuff that goes on between teenagers in the west would be scandalous in a society that considers even just holding hands to be too much contact before marriage. I didn't hold my wife's hand until we left the marriage registry and had the papers in our hands.

It is all subjective and in my opinion, blown all out of proportion by those who wish to attack Islam.

So the Egyption WOMEN are lying and simply trying to attack Islam? BS, these women are on women ONLY trains and still are subjected to lewd comments and groping. I love that holding hands is just too much for your society, but disgusting comments and butt grabbing is just fine or in your case. Made up to insult Islam.

I know a women who spent 3 years in Saudi and every morning as she jogged around the track in a secure facility for foreign workers she was subjected to good Muslim men jerking off outside the fence. Obviously what is taught in the Quran and what is practiced by the men are two entirely different things.

[taft2012]

I know a women who spent 3 years in Saudi and every morning as she jogged around the track in a secure facility for foreign workers she was subjected to good Muslim men jerking off outside the fence. Obviously what is taught in the Quran and what is practiced by the men are two entirely different things.

Hey Jafar, do you stand outside the fence greasin' wheezer too?

[jimnyc]

By thugs I believe.

It was a LOT of people, an entire crowd. And it was Lara Logan from CBS who was attacked. Here's a blurb from her:


She said the incident involved 200–300 men and lasted around 25 minutes. She had been reporting the celebrations for an hour without incident when her camera battery failed. One of the Egyptian CBS crew suggested they leave, telling her later he heard the crowd make inappropriate sexual comments about her. She felt hands touching her, and can be heard shouting "stop", just as the camera died. One of the crowd shouted that she was an Israeli, a Jew, a claim that CBS said, though false, was a "match to gasoline". She went on to say that they tore off her clothes and, in her words, raped her with their hands, while taking photographs with their cellphones. They began pulling her body in different directions, pulling her hair so hard she said it seemed they were trying to tear off chunks of her scalp. Believing she was dying, she was dragged along the square to where the crowd was stopped by a fence, alongside which a group of women were camping. One woman wearing a chador put her arms around Logan, and the others closed ranks around her, while some men who were with the women threw water at the crowd. A group of soldiers appeared, beat back the crowd with batons, and one of them threw Logan over his shoulder. She was flown back to the U.S. the next day, where she spent four days in the hospital. She was contacted by President Obama when she arrived home.CBS said it remained unclear who the attackers were, and unlikely that any will be prosecuted.

These were Muslim filth attacking a woman and getting away with it. And in addition to this attack, about a week prior, she was detained for no good reason, handcuffed at gunpoint, then blindfolded. She was there simply to cover the events taking place and was treated like a piece of meat. These people were more than just thugs, they were animals, and they deserve to be in prison for a long, long time.

[jimnyc]

So the Egyption WOMEN are lying and simply trying to attack Islam? BS, these women are on women ONLY trains and still are subjected to lewd comments and groping. I love that holding hands is just too much for your society, but disgusting comments and butt grabbing is just fine or in your case. Made up to insult Islam.

I know a women who spent 3 years in Saudi and every morning as she jogged around the track in a secure facility for foreign workers she was subjected to good Muslim men jerking off outside the fence. Obviously what is taught in the Quran and what is practiced by the men are two entirely different things.

There are endless accounts of abuse from Egyptian women. And this is why it's such a problem. The men rule the nation, they deny any wrongdoing or deny things ever happened at all. Try being a woman and report a man for a heinous crime that you don't have absolute proof of, see what happens.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

By thugs I believe.

Exacty, muslim thugs.. Always you refuse to admit that Islam does any wrong. You do this to the point of absurdity.
According to you , convert to Islam and a man becomes an instant saint! Poppycock and absurd denial .
Those muslim thugs beat and raped that women because they thought she was jewish, she was not. They have no right to molest or rape any woman no matter her race or religion. Islam is nothing more than a very militant political movement that uses religion as a cover.-Tyr

[jimnyc]

Exacty, muslim thugs.. Always you refuse to admit that Islam does any wrong. You do this to the point of absurdity.

They were Muslim men protesting. Until they committed their crimes, then they are no longer Muslims, just plain 'ol thugs. Wouldn't want to add anything more to the "fake statistics".

[jafar00]

These people were more than just thugs, they were animals, and they deserve to be in prison for a long, long time.

Many of them were. Mubarak released 16,000 dangerous prisoners including rapists during the revolution in a juvenile attempt to say to the people "look! You were safer with me as President!" as they were being attacked by these thugs.

[jimnyc]

Many of them were. Mubarak released 16,000 dangerous prisoners including rapists during the revolution in a juvenile attempt to say to the people "look! You were safer with me as President!" as they were being attacked by these thugs.

Has the military, Morsi, Muslim Brotherhood, police or anyone else made efforts to fix this error? Or do they plan on allowing the criminals to remain free? I suppose if it was an official release then there is little that can be done. We have similar from the Presideny on down over here. They have a habit of giving out pardons and similar in their last few days before leaving office. Very dumb practice, IMO, whether in Egypt or the USA.

[Gaffer]

Many of them were. Mubarak released 16,000 dangerous prisoners including rapists during the revolution in a juvenile attempt to say to the people "look! You were safer with me as President!" as they were being attacked by these thugs.

I wonder how many of them were political prisoners? The muslim brotherhood types and anti-Mubarack ones. How many of those 16 thousand were locked up for speaking out against the govt? So now all those "criminals" have been released into the population and are to be blamed for all the bad things that happen. Those same "criminals" that the population was calling for the release of.

Before their release they were good guys, after their release they are thugs. hmmmmm.

[jafar00]

Has the military, Morsi, Muslim Brotherhood, police or anyone else made efforts to fix this error? Or do they plan on allowing the criminals to remain free? I suppose if it was an official release then there is little that can be done. We have similar from the Presideny on down over here. They have a habit of giving out pardons and similar in their last few days before leaving office. Very dumb practice, IMO, whether in Egypt or the USA.

Some have been recaptured. Others were shot when they set up checkpoints around the place stopping cars to rob people. They were not political prisoners. They were dangerous ones released and armed by Mubarak and told to create havoc so the people would miss the old days when they were "safe" under the iron fist of Mubarak and his military dictatorship.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Some have been recaptured. Others were shot when they set up checkpoints around the place stopping cars to rob people. They were not political prisoners. They were dangerous ones released and armed by Mubarak and told to create havoc so the people would miss the old days when they were "safe" under the iron fist of Mubarak and his military dictatorship.

And none of them were muslim, right? None of them in prison for opposing Mubarak the evil dictator, right?:laugh::laugh2::laugh:--Tyr

[Gaffer]

Some have been recaptured. Others were shot when they set up checkpoints around the place stopping cars to rob people. They were not political prisoners. They were dangerous ones released and armed by Mubarak and told to create havoc so the people would miss the old days when they were "safe" under the iron fist of Mubarak and his military dictatorship.

They were told, and being good citizens promptly went right to work creating havoc? What rewards were they promised? The whole explanation sounds fishy to me.

[jafar00]

They were told, and being good citizens promptly went right to work creating havoc? What rewards were they promised? The whole explanation sounds fishy to me.

Actually some of the released prisoners went back inside to wait for the guards to return. The revolution was quite surreal. The building I used to live in got shot up by armed people in a police van.