Does America Really Deserve To Be Free?

[tailfins]

I will start by saying I think conservative policies increase prosperity for a virtuous society. However when a society becomes corrupt, an activist government is needed to protect people from a corrupt society. The stinginess I see in American society these days make me wonder if socialism with its limited freedom and draconian results might be appropriate. A police state is appropriate when everyone is a crook. Thoughts?

[Roo]

I will start by saying I think conservative policies increase prosperity for a virtuous society. However when a society becomes corrupt, an activist government is needed to protect people from a corrupt society. The stinginess I see in American society these days make me wonder if socialism with its limited freedom and draconian results might be appropriate. A police state is appropriate when everyone is a crook. Thoughts?

You will need a lot of guns.

[Little-Acorn]

However when a society becomes corrupt, an activist government is needed to protect people from a corrupt society.

Just one little problem. An "activist" government frequently acts to INCREASE corruption in a society that becomes used to activist governments.

A good example is today's government, which encourages people to go on food stamps, eliminates the work requirement for getting government welfare, tries to flood other coutries with illegal guns to inflame people against guns, and generally spends large resources trying to control people rather than expending those resources rooting out its own corruption.

The only way to reduce corruption, is to have a government whose job is ONLY to protect people's rights and gaurd against corruption... including its own.

[Kathianne]

Just one little problem. An "activist" government frequently acts to INCREASE corruption in a society that becomes used to activist governments.

A good example is today's government, which encourages people to go on food stamps, eliminates the work requirement for getting government welfare, tries to flood other coutries with illegal guns to inflame people against guns, and generally spends large resources trying to control people rather than expending those resources rooting out its own corruption.

The only way to reduce corruption, is to have a government whose job is ONLY to protect people's rights and gaurd against corruption... including its own.

I agree with your premised, though it would take years to get there. Witness Obama gutting welfare reform.

[aboutime]

Obviously. Obama, and the Democrats DO NOT FEEL America deserves, or should be Free. Except for those whom they easily convince to vote for them.
The great thing is. Eventually. EVEN OBAMA, and the DEMS will run out of OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY.

Then they'll have to explain to those who fell for their tricks....why it stopped.

[fj1200]

I will start by saying I think conservative policies increase prosperity for a virtuous society. However when a society becomes corrupt, an activist government is needed to protect people from a corrupt society. The stinginess I see in American society these days make me wonder if socialism with its limited freedom and draconian results might be appropriate. A police state is appropriate when everyone is a crook. Thoughts?

How is "everyone" a crook? And yes, America deserves to be free along with everyone else on the planet.

[gabosaurus]

I will start by saying I think conservative policies increase prosperity for a virtuous society. However when a society becomes corrupt, an activist government is needed to protect people from a corrupt society. The stinginess I see in American society these days make me wonder if socialism with its limited freedom and draconian results might be appropriate. A police state is appropriate when everyone is a crook. Thoughts?

You can't watch TV for more than a half hour and still believe we have a "virtuous society." Our politicians (both sides) ensure we have a corrupt society. As long as campaign contributions are uncapped and unmonitored, politicians (both sides) will continue to stuff their pockets with cash and do the bidding of wealthy corporations instead of the people who elected them. Allowing corporations to control government is what made Mexico the mess it is, with 10 percent of people owning 90 percent of wealth and property.

Limited freedoms and draconian controls over people leads to police states and dictatorships like North Korea. What good is a police state when the crooks are in power?

You don't get something for nothing
You can't have freedom for free
You won't get wise
With the sleep still in your eyes
No matter what your dreams might be

[fj1200]

You can't watch TV for more than a half hour and still believe we have a "virtuous society." Our politicians (both sides) ensure we have a corrupt society. As long as campaign contributions are uncapped and unmonitored, politicians (both sides) will continue to stuff their pockets with cash and do the bidding of wealthy corporations instead of the people who elected them. Allowing corporations to control government is what made Mexico the mess it is, with 10 percent of people owning 90 percent of wealth and property.

Limited freedoms and draconian controls over people leads to police states and dictatorships like North Korea. What good is a police state when the crooks are in power?

No, besides you contradict yourself in the last pp. Why should your freedom of speech, i.e. money, be limited? At best we need more transparency in the process and not a limiting of money. We keep getting more and more campaign finance controls, and attempts at such, and incumbents along, with the growth of the un-elected regulator class, gain more and more power.

And your Mexico analogy is off. They do not have near the basis for our economic growth for all groups that we do.

[gabosaurus]

And your Mexico analogy is off. They do not have near the basis for our economic growth for all groups that we do.

They used to have more of a base that we did. Back a century ago. When American starting granting more rights to workers, the Mexican government moved in the opposite direction.
You want to experience what will happen if corporate greed overrules environmental sanctions? Go to Mexico City. The air is so thick with smog and pollution that you can barely breathe. There is next to no fertile farmland, which robs a large segment of the population of work.
You want to know why illegal immigrants cross the border en masse? They can't find work in their own country and their government doesn't care if they find it.

[Kathianne]

You can't watch TV for more than a half hour and still believe we have a "virtuous society." Our politicians (both sides) ensure we have a corrupt society. As long as campaign contributions are uncapped and unmonitored, politicians (both sides) will continue to stuff their pockets with cash and do the bidding of wealthy corporations instead of the people who elected them. Allowing corporations to control government is what made Mexico the mess it is, with 10 percent of people owning 90 percent of wealth and property.

Limited freedoms and draconian controls over people leads to police states and dictatorships like North Korea. What good is a police state when the crooks are in power?

You don't get something for nothing
You can't have freedom for free
You won't get wise
With the sleep still in your eyes
No matter what your dreams might be

Gabby, do you get your morals from politicians? I don't. I don't know about you, but I follow politics quite closely and yet, politicians do not motivate me towards a corruption of my beliefs.

[fj1200]

They used to have more of a base that we did. Back a century ago. When American starting granting more rights to workers, the Mexican government moved in the opposite direction.
You want to experience what will happen if corporate greed overrules environmental sanctions? Go to Mexico City. The air is so thick with smog and pollution that you can barely breathe. There is next to no fertile farmland, which robs a large segment of the population of work.
You want to know why illegal immigrants cross the border en masse? They can't find work in their own country and their government doesn't care if they find it.

:facepalm99: As I said they don't have the basis for growth that we do.

[avatar4321]

Are we really free anymore?

This is precisely why we need to humble ourselves before God and come to Him and Keep His commandments like we never have before. Mainly because many of us never have before.

Be humble
Be Honest
Be Charitable
Be Kind
Be generous
Be Industrious
Be Chaste

Cease to be Idle
Cease to degrade others
Cease to be jealous
Cease to covet
Cease to Steal, Rob, Kill

[Kathianne]

Are we really free anymore?

This is precisely why we need to humble ourselves before God and come to Him and Keep His commandments like we never have before. Mainly because many of us never have before.

Be humble
Be Honest
Be Charitable
Be Kind
Be generous
Be Industrious
Be Chaste

Cease to be Idle
Cease to degrade others
Cease to be jealous
Cease to covetr
Cease to Steal, Rob, Kill

Avatar, I've always liked you as a poster and a person. Lately though, you are reminding me of Sky/Windsong with her perpetual linking of gay issues and all. You are doing the same, though with a better message. Still, derailing.

[avatar4321]

Avatar, I've always liked you as a poster and a person. Lately though, you are reminding me of Sky/Windsong with her perpetual linking of gay issues and all. You are doing the same, though with a better message. Still, derailing.

They are linked though. We come into bondage and eventually end up to destroyed when we ignore God and His counsels.

Our Founders recognized the importance of God in their lives and in establishing the nation. The Second Continental Congress and General Washington frequently called the people to humble themselves, to fast, and to repent. And because of that Miracles occured. The Continental Army was delivered from the British again and again through the Hand of Divine Providence when they should have been destroyed. They won victories like at Trenton, Princeton, and Yorktown when, for all intensive purposes, they should not have won.

As Ben Franklin said at the Constitutional Convention:


In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger
we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. -- Our prayers, Sir,
were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the
struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in
our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting
in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we
now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His
assistance.

I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I
live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God
governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the
ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his
aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord
build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also
believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political
building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little
partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall
be become a reproach and a bye word down to future age. And what is worse,
mankind may hereafter this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing
Governments by Human Wisdom, and leave it to chance, war, and
conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth
prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our
deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to
business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to
officiate in that service.


We have liberty, because these good men turned to God and established a free Republic with His help. If we want liberty to continue, it must be built on the same Foundation our Founders built it on. Our nation is corrupt and dying. What other options do we have if we are going to save it?

[revelarts]

I will start by saying I think conservative policies increase prosperity for a virtuous society. However when a society becomes corrupt, an activist government is needed to protect people from a corrupt society. The stinginess I see in American society these days make me wonder if socialism with its limited freedom and draconian results might be appropriate. A police state is appropriate when everyone is a crook. Thoughts?

Avatar makes some great points. It's not derailing a thread when the question concerns corruption and virtue to talk about God here. (and God is in everything really, wouldn't be anything to talk about if he hadn't made it all, so it's not derailing to talk about him in every thread frankly.)

But yeah, no one really deserves it. but no one deserves to lord it over others ethier. We all fall short of the mark. However by God's grace we can enjoy the "blessings" of liberty if we'd collectively required more virtue of ourselves and encouraged and promoted it among our neighbors. As far a our politicians go We don't have to vote for the lesser of 2 evils. We only promote evil. if we want more virtuous politicians we can't vote for the best crooks money can buy.

[tailfins]

Limited freedoms and draconian controls over people leads to police states and dictatorships like North Korea. What good is a police state when the crooks are in power?

That's exactly what liberalism/socialism does. The only way you could ever convince me to vote for liberals/Democrats on the national level is to convince me that the US as a nation deserves exactly the portion of your post quoted above. I also believe 1950s Cuba deserved the evil Fidel Castro. Nations/societies sometime deteriorate to a level where they deserve to be punished.

I believe the Obama regime is a mild punishment on this nation.

[Little-Acorn]

Does America Really Deserve To Be Free?


The people who deserve to be free, are the people who have the guts to resist and defeat those who would take away their freedom.

It is becoming more questionable every day, whether America deserves to be free.

The Nov. 2010 elections were a welcome step in the right direction. But the fact that they were an anomaly within the last few decades, is troubling.

Hopefully after the 2012 and 2014 elections, they will be seen less as an anomaly and more as a trend.

But the jury is still out.

[gabosaurus]

Nations/societies sometime deteriorate to a level where they deserve to be punished.

I believe the Obama regime is a mild punishment on this nation.

After what Dubya did to our nation, a mild punishment is hardly anything.

[fj1200]

After what Dubya did to our nation, a mild punishment is hardly anything.

What did he do?

[darin]

"Punishment" As in..by God?

We are where we are by simple 'consequence'. Not judgment.

[tailfins]

After what Dubya did to our nation, a mild punishment is hardly anything.

Except for the very tail end, it was reasonably easy for most people to economically function under GW Bush. Under Obama it just gets progressively difficult (I wonder if that's what they mean by progressive). I haven't seen any reason to believe a second term wouldn't be more of the same. Obama just might get re-elected (50-50). I question the value of a nation that would re-elect him. It means a nation that values a government check over anything else. Regardless of the result, this election will give this nation exactly what it deserves.

[Little-Acorn]

I will start by saying I think conservative policies increase prosperity for a virtuous society. However when a society becomes corrupt, an activist government is needed to protect people from a corrupt society. The stinginess I see in American society these days make me wonder if socialism with its limited freedom and draconian results might be appropriate. A police state is appropriate when everyone is a crook. Thoughts?

There's an old saying, which many people take as obvious:

"When politicians control the buying and selling of things, the first things bought and sold will be politicians."

It's a way of saying that, when politicians (i.e. government) control things that many people want to have and/or alter themselves, many people will try to influence that government, and in every way imaginable. Again, this is no surprise.

Most people in this thread seem to think that the solution is to regulate and restrict what parts of government people can influence, and/or how much.

I suggest that hard experience shows us that that "solution" doesn't work very well. Where there's a will, there's a way, and people will find ways to influence the government that controls so much of their lives... by whatever means. The result is, as we have seen, unsatisfactory.

I suggest an alternate solution: Instead of trying to restrict what parts of government people can influence, we should restrict what parts of people's live government can influence. If government is relegated to mundane, routine things, if its job is to simply keep us free to do what we want without screwing our neighbor, then people will be satisfied with what it does and won't be nearly as interested in influencing, changing, bribing, etc., their politicians.

This restriction cannot be perfect, of course. Government needs money to run - to maintain embassies, to set up and run courts, to provide and run national defense, and all the other legitimate functions that all people want them to do. And even for these wanted and needed functions, people will try to influence politicians to take less tax money from me while taking more from that guy over there; and to build the National Standards Bureau or Military Base in my town rather than his, etc. But these influence attempts will be an order of magnitude less than the kind of corruption we are seeing today, with government controlling zoning, health care, welfare, and other huge amounts of our formerly-private lives.

If those "extra" things were left in private hands, and large segments of government were freed up to police them for fraud, coercion, and other such corruption, instead of devoting vast resources to trying to run those things itself, I suggest that the overall amount of fraud and corruption will go WAY down.

The less government does, the more it can do its REAL job of protecting people's rights and safeguarding them from the crooks next door or in the next county... or the next country.