Joe Paterno and Penn State

[jimnyc]

The investigation into Penn State's culpability in the Jerry Sandusky case has been finalized. It took me a day to read it in it's entirety, as it's very long and very thorough. I need to admit I was wrong about my initial thoughts on the case. It would appear that Joe helped protect Sandusky to an extent. I believe he had a say as to whether or not they handled the case from within, or reported to outside authorities. He made a horrible decision that ultimately allowed Sandusky to commit unspeakable acts down the road. It wasn't his legal duty was my initial defense. But while that may be true, when anyone asked him for guidance on this, he should have, without thought, told them the right thing to do was contact the appropriate authorities. I'm saddened to learn that he thought otherwise. Joe chose friendship and football over protecting children. One mistake in 50+ years of football, and it's a HUGE one. I still love Paterno, and always will. He still holds every major coaching record. IMO, this shouldn't affect his status as a coach of Penn State football. But unfortunately for Joe, this forever changes how he will be looked at and remembered, and perhaps deservedly so. He fucked up, no 2 ways about it. Him being an idol of mine, I searched for many ways to figure this out and not hold him responsible, but I can't find a way past it. I can forgive him as I believe his intentions were from the heart, however ill they were.

[logroller]

The investigation into Penn State's culpability in the Jerry Sandusky case has been finalized. It took me a day to read it in it's entirety, as it's very long and very thorough. I need to admit I was wrong about my initial thoughts on the case. It would appear that Joe helped protect Sandusky to an extent. I believe he had a say as to whether or not they handled the case from within, or reported to outside authorities. He made a horrible decision that ultimately allowed Sandusky to commit unspeakable acts down the road. It wasn't his legal duty was my initial defense. But while that may be true, when anyone asked him for guidance on this, he should have, without thought, told them the right thing to do was contact the appropriate authorities. I'm saddened to learn that he thought otherwise. Joe chose friendship and football over protecting children. One mistake in 50+ years of football, and it's a HUGE one. I still love Paterno, and always will. He still holds every major coaching record. IMO, this shouldn't affect his status as a coach of Penn State football. But unfortunately for Joe, this forever changes how he will be looked at and remembered, and perhaps deservedly so. He fucked up, no 2 ways about it. Him being an idol of mine, I searched for many ways to figure this out and not hold him responsible, but I can't find a way past it. I can forgive him as I believe his intentions were from the heart, however ill they were.
Jim, it takes a big man to admit when he was wrong, a very big man...a much bigger man, in fact, than a man who says I told you so. :coffee:

[jimnyc]

Jim, it takes a big man to admit when he was wrong, a very big man...a much bigger man, in fact, than a man who says I told you so. :coffee:

Why you lousy, no good, jump on a man while he's down, opportunistic bastard! :lol:

Yeah, it was denial. When it's a hero of sorts, nothing short of direct proof will satisfy. I wasn't going to believe rumors, guesses or possibilities. I'm still left guessing, and would love to ask Joe, why? Why would you delay or not want to report a man that did this?

Makes me wonder though, that age old question about whether or not you would rat out on a family member of you found out they were involved in a heinous crime. The Unabomber for example, I believe it was his own brother that is what finally busted him. What if it was a family member and you found out they were involved similarly as Sandusky? Do you report instantly? Do you try to help them? Do you talk to them? How does one handle something like this if it were a brother/brother situation?

[logroller]

Why you lousy, no good, jump on a man while he's down, opportunistic bastard! :lol:

Yeah, it was denial. When it's a hero of sorts, nothing short of direct proof will satisfy. I wasn't going to believe rumors, guesses or possibilities. I'm still left guessing, and would love to ask Joe, why? Why would you delay or not want to report a man that did this?

Makes me wonder though, that age old question about whether or not you would rat out on a family member of you found out they were involved in a heinous crime. The Unabomber for example, I believe it was his own brother that is what finally busted him. What if it was a family member and you found out they were involved similarly as Sandusky? Do you report instantly? Do you try to help them? Do you talk to them? How does one handle something like this if it were a brother/brother situation?
Sheesh. That's heavy. I suppose it's a question of duty. In cases where those duties conflict, it is necessary to rank those duties. This is often described as ethical pluralism, a subset of deotologucal ethics. There's a 20th century philosopher by the name of WD Ross who addressed what he called prima facie duties; placing Non-maleficience (do no harm) as most dutiful. For example, a doctor or priest has a duty of fidelity, or confidence; one which recognized not only professionally and ethically, but legally; so that if you confide in him about something heinous he is dutifully bound to keep that confidential. However, if he believes you will do such a thing again, causing harm to another or yourself, he is ethically bound to breach that duty of fidelity because the duty to (do no harm) is a greater duty. So in the case of David kaczynsky, there was high likelihood that another bombing would occur, thus justifying his breach of trust.

[logroller]

Sheesh. That's heavy. I suppose it's a question of duty. In cases where those duties conflict, it is necessary to rank those duties. This is often described as ethical pluralism, a subset of deotologucal ethics. There's a 20th century philosopher by the name of WD Ross who addressed what he called prima facie duties; placing Non-maleficience (do no harm) as most dutiful. For example, a doctor or priest has a duty of fidelity, or confidence; one which recognized not only professionally and ethically, but legally; so that if you confide in him about something heinous he is dutifully bound to keep that confidential. However, if he believes you will do such a thing again, causing harm to another or yourself, he is ethically bound to breach that duty of fidelity because the duty to (do no harm) is a greater duty. So in the case of David kaczynsky, there was high likelihood that another bombing would occur, thus justifying his breach of trust.
Edit: Deontological ethics

[Kathianne]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaa-hits-penn-state-football-130932180--ncaaf.html


INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -- NCAA hits Penn State football with $60 million fine, vacates Paterno's wins from 1998-2011.

[jimnyc]

Wow, this is some serious penalties handed down:

$60 million fine
4 year ban from post season (trust me, that's HUGE, and likely larger in the long run than the fine)
All wins vacated from 1998-2011

I do have a little bit of an issue with the last one. None of this was "football related". The team wasn't involved. I understand JoePa needs to suffer from his actions, but taking away things from on the field simply doesn't make sense and does nothing for those ultimately victimized. Hell, I might even argue jail time for even JoePa had he still been alive, but I think this punishment is a little misguided.

I hope earlier rumors of allowing players to go elsewhere with scholarships remaining in effect comes to fruition. These students came to PSU in good faith and did nothing wrong.

[jimnyc]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaa-hits-penn-state-football-130932180--ncaaf.html

Damnit, you beat me! LOL

[Kathianne]

More details:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/story/2012-07-23/ncaa-penn-state-punishment-sanctions/56427630/1


...the school will be forced to cut 10 scholarships for this season and 20 scholarships for the following four years.

The move essentially bumps Penn State down to the scholarship levels of schools at the lower Football Championship Subdivision (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Football+Championship+Subdivision).


The school will be forced to vacate all wins from 1998-2011, a total of 112 victories, and serve five years of probation.


The loss of victories means Joe Paterno (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Sports+Coaches,+Team+Owners,+Execs,+Officials/NCAA/Joe+Paterno) is no longer college football's winningest coach. He was fired in November during the scandal after 409 wins at the school.

Because of the length of the punishment, all current Penn State players and incoming freshman will be free to transfer to another school without penalty.


The totality of the sanctions will have a drastic impact on the school's ability to compete in football the rest of the decade...

[jimnyc]

I made my comments and thoughts about JoePa and his turning his back long before this came down, and I won't retract them. But, he's still the coach with the most wins, hands down. Just like everyone who knows anything about baseball knows about Pete Rose's accomplishments, records and the fact that he is a hall of famer, even though he is banished because of gambling.

Making believe the on field accomplishments never happened won't help anyone. This stuff had nothing to do with what took place on the field. History and record books will now show asterisks and a reduction of wins, but everyone knows Joe won those games through a 61yr career.

Yes, he should be held in contempt for his looking the other way. If alive, he should even be punished. But the punishments being given out help no one that was victimized and don't even punish for the appropriate actions.

The man made a monumental mistake. But he wasn't the abuser. He wasn't the one who was a mandatory reporter. But he's the one being punished the most. They'll continue to do so as well as it's easier to push the blame on a man that is now gone.

[WiccanLiberal]

For all those holding to any admiration for Mr. Paterno, he did have a legal obligation to report the abuse and could have been charged with neglecting to do so. Every state has laws regarding who is a "mandatory reporter". Pennsylvania law is similar to NY law in that it requires doctors, nurses, therapists, teachers and school administrators to report in writing and with their name and contact information included and mandates penalties if it is later discovered that such person was aware of the abuse and did not do so. While the school was not educating young children, they were present for university sanctioned activities which means the administration had responsibility for them. In addition to the current mess they have going on, I am surprised the state hasn't brought such charges against every member of the administration involved.

[gabosaurus]

The NCAA was correct is penalizing the football program while sparing the rest of the university.
Paterno is dead and most of the administrators involved have lost their jobs. The football program itself had to be spared in order to keep the remainder of the school and the community intact. You would be surprised at how many other programs depend of revenue raised by football.

At the same time, I am wondering how many other Division I football programs are shrugging their shoulders and getting back to business. The media contains almost daily references to football and basketball players who receive preferential treatment so as not to endanger their status as cash cows.

[jimnyc]

For all those holding to any admiration for Mr. Paterno, he did have a legal obligation to report the abuse and could have been charged with neglecting to do so. Every state has laws regarding who is a "mandatory reporter". Pennsylvania law is similar to NY law in that it requires doctors, nurses, therapists, teachers and school administrators to report in writing and with their name and contact information included and mandates penalties if it is later discovered that such person was aware of the abuse and did not do so. While the school was not educating young children, they were present for university sanctioned activities which means the administration had responsibility for them. In addition to the current mess they have going on, I am surprised the state hasn't brought such charges against every member of the administration involved.

Joe had no legal obligation as he was not a mandatory reporter and was not and never was an administrator of any type for the school. They placed charges against those that were, and even made it clear that no charges would be being brought forth against Joe for exactly that reason. His superiors, the athletic director and school president, were the mandatory reporters in this instance.

[WiccanLiberal]

Respectfully I have to disagree. I think the only reason they didn't was that he was already ill and they understood what public opinion was about him. He was in the educational chain of command at that university. The statute reads "Persons required to report include, but are not limited to:
Licensed physicians, osteopaths, medical examiners, coroners, funeral directors, dentists, optometrists, chiropractors, podiatrists, interns, nurses, or hospital personnel
Christian Science practitioners or members of the clergy
School administrators, teachers, school nurses, social services workers, daycare center workers, or any other child care or foster care workers
Mental health professionals
Peace officers or law enforcement officials'" The italics are mine.

[jimnyc]

Respectfully I have to disagree. I think the only reason they didn't was that he was already ill and they understood what public opinion was about him. He was in the educational chain of command at that university. The statute reads "Persons required to report include, but are not limited to:
Licensed physicians, osteopaths, medical examiners, coroners, funeral directors, dentists, optometrists, chiropractors, podiatrists, interns, nurses, or hospital personnel
Christian Science practitioners or members of the clergy
School administrators, teachers, school nurses, social services workers, daycare center workers, or any other child care or foster care workers
Mental health professionals
Peace officers or law enforcement officials'" The italics are mine.

You can disagree as you like, but the Pa. State Police and all investigators involved agreed, Gary Schulz and Tim Curley were charged with failure to report suspected child abuse. No charges were given to Paterno when this first came out and they all said the same thing - that while he may have had a moral obligation, he had no legal obligation.

He was a "coach" and had no teaching authority or administration authority. This has all been very well covered since the news first came out.

[logroller]

Wow!!! The monetary punishment I hav no problem with, but th sanctioning and removal of wins is crap. USC received a lesser punishment for things that were obviously against NCAA rules=cheating to win. I'm not contending the acts were any less heinous-- indisputably, they are-- but it seems like they're trying to make a point; that point being, th NCAA franchise is more important than sport. I'm so sick of college sports; I'm done with it.

[jimnyc]

Wow!!! The monetary punishment I hav no problem with, but th sanctioning and removal of wins is crap. USC received a lesser punishment for things that were obviously against NCAA rules=cheating to win. I'm not contending the acts were any less heinous-- indisputably, they are-- but it seems like they're trying to make a point; that point being, th NCAA franchise is more important than sport. I'm so sick of college sports; I'm done with it.

Yeah, outside of the case with PSU, college football has become such a scam in the past 20 years, or likely longer. Everything is supposed to be a game, but it's all about money and corruption.

But that's about how I feel, charge PSU as a school as much as you want. Charges against the mandatory reporters, and make it severe, although probably a pre-set charge. McQueary, his career and any legacy he was starting to build, is long gone. JoePa, 61 years of commitment to the school, all gone. Statues, gone, murals gone. His legacy is trashed regardless. But what took place on the field, and the wins, had nothing to do with the controversy, and in no way seems to fit any crimes committed and does more harm to "innocents" than it does for those involved.

[gabosaurus]

An interesting, although lengthy, story about just how powerful and influential Joe Paterno was.
What is really frightening is how many Division I college campuses this is true on. The reporters who helped break the USC scandal received death threats. College football is out of control.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/15/us/triponey-paterno-penn-state/index.html

[Toro]

It's the right decision, though maybe the university got off lightly. They had to take away the wins.

The reason why they didn't turn Sandusky in was because it would have hurt the football program. By taking the wins away, it hurts the football program retroactively, and acts as a deterrent to those who would turn a blind eye to heinous crimes. Paterno benefited from the crimes. You don't allow those who covered up the crime to benefit from that crime.

The theory is this - If it became known that the crimes began in 1998, from the moment that Paterno and the university decided not to turn Sandusky in, they are involved in a cover-up. At any point in time, you can argue that because Paterno decided to cover up the crimes, he should have been fired. Thus, all the wins after 1998 would never have happened because Paterno would not have been coaching Penn State.

FTR, the NCAA stripped Bowden of 14 wins because of a cheating scandal for which he had no knowledge, the theory being that had the players been caught, they would have been expelled. Because Bowden benefited from the players being on his team, he was stripped of the wins, even though he had no knowledge of the scandal. So the NCAA had no choice but to strip Paterno of the wins.

[logroller]

It's the right decision, though maybe the university got off lightly. They had to take away the wins.

The reason why they didn't turn Sandusky in was because it would have hurt the football program. By taking the wins away, it hurts the football program retroactively, and acts as a deterrent to those who would turn a blind eye to heinous crimes. Paterno benefited from the crimes. You don't allow those who covered up the crime to benefit from that crime.

The theory is this - If it became known that the crimes began in 1998, from the moment that Paterno and the university decided not to turn Sandusky in, they are involved in a cover-up. At any point in time, you can argue that because Paterno decided to cover up the crimes, he should have been fired. Thus, all the wins after 1998 would never have happened because Paterno would not have been coaching Penn State.

FTR, the NCAA stripped Bowden of 14 wins because of a cheating scandal for which he had no knowledge, the theory being that had the players been caught, they would have been expelled. Because Bowden benefited from the players being on his team, he was stripped of the wins, even though he had no knowledge of the scandal. So the NCAA had no choice but to strip Paterno of the wins.
Certainly a scandal hurts a university's booster capital, but money doesn't equal wins...atleast it shouldn't, and that's why paying players is punishable by taking wins regardless of a coach's knowledge. As I said, monetary fines I have no problem with and maybe I'm missing something, but how did the coverup result in more wins? Had paterno reported the act in 1998 would he have been fired? How many players would have been expelled? FTR, Sandusky was removed from his official capacity as a coach; so how integral was he in earning those wins?

[jimnyc]

Certainly a scandal hurts a university's booster capital, but money doesn't equal wins...atleast it shouldn't, and that's why paying players is punishable by taking wins regardless of a coach's knowledge. As I said, monetary fines I have no problem with and maybe I'm missing something, but how did the coverup result in more wins? Had paterno reported the act in 1998 would he have been fired? How many players would have been expelled? FTR, Sandusky was removed from his official capacity as a coach; so how integral was he in earning those wins?

It's an appeasement to the masses to take the actions they did, while hurting innocent students and athletes. Huge fines to the school I have no issue with either, even triple what they fined them, Sandusky the gas chamber, jail for the mandatory reporters and Joe's legacy is ruined. But removal of the wins and scholarships only serves to hurt people who had no involvement whatsoever with the abuses. And acknowledging what Joe did was wrong, no, it wouldn't have changed anything as far as the teams were concerned and their W-L record.

[Roo]

Not to change the subject, but the Yankees got Ichiro in a trade.

[Toro]

Certainly a scandal hurts a university's booster capital, but money doesn't equal wins...atleast it shouldn't, and that's why paying players is punishable by taking wins regardless of a coach's knowledge. As I said, monetary fines I have no problem with and maybe I'm missing something, but how did the coverup result in more wins? Had paterno reported the act in 1998 would he have been fired? How many players would have been expelled? FTR, Sandusky was removed from his official capacity as a coach; so how integral was he in earning those wins?

If Sandusky had been fired as soon as they knew - or at least suspended pending an investigation - then there would be no issue. The issue is that they swept it under the rug and the crimes continued. The moment they decided to sweep it under the rug is the moment they are culpable. That is when the offense became fireable. That is when Paterno and the University abandoned their moral responsibility.

Raping children is a worse offense than cheating on music tests, as they did at FSU. Many issues transcend sport. This is one of them. The NCAA is right to vacate the wins.

[logroller]

If Sandusky had been fired as soon as they knew - or at least suspended pending an investigation - then there would be no issue. The issue is that they swept it under the rug and the crimes continued. The moment they decided to sweep it under the rug is the moment they are culpable. That is when the offense became fireable. That is when Paterno and the University abandoned their moral responsibility.

Raping children is a worse offense than cheating on music tests, as they did at FSU. Many issues transcend sport. This is one of them. The NCAA is right to vacate the wins.
seriously, you sound like we should raze penn st to the ground...punishing thousands for what a few did. I hardly consider that morally right. Did the non-reporting result in any of those wins--yes or no?

[Toro]

seriously, you sound like we should raze penn st to the ground...punishing thousands for what a few did. I hardly consider that morally right. Did the non-reporting result in any of those wins--yes or no?

If Paterno would have been fired for the cover-up, yes. That's the point. Paterno would not have been credited for the wins. So he loses those wins. From the point they decided to cover it up is the point at which he should have been fired.

And saying they should lose wins =/= razing to the ground. In all due respect, I believe this attitude is part of the problem that allows this shit to happen. My mother and father were both professional athletes, as were my uncle and grandfather, so I'm hardly anti-jock. But people lose perspective and elevate sports way, way beyond it's importance in life.

[jimnyc]

If Paterno would have been fired for the cover-up, yes. That's the point. Paterno would not have been credited for the wins. So he loses those wins. From the point they decided to cover it up is the point at which he should have been fired.

And saying they should lose wins =/= razing to the ground. In all due respect, I believe this attitude is part of the problem that allows this shit to happen. My mother and father were both professional athletes, as were my uncle and grandfather, so I'm hardly anti-jock. But people lose perspective and elevate sports way, way beyond it's importance in life.

Why punish former and current players? What did all of these athletes at PSU have to do with the abuse scandal? Vacating wins is not only a slap in the face to so many former players, but the reduction in scholarships, ban of bowl games and everything else only penalizes the current players and coaches, who had zilch to do with anything. Maybe place an asterisk next to Joe's name or something, and fine the university as a whole a trillion bucks for all I care, but taking action that hurts the on field current players makes no sense. Taking games and bowl victories away from former players helps no one and sends no appropriate message. IMO, the punishment should directly and only effect those who made violations.

[logroller]

If Paterno would have been fired for the cover-up, yes. That's the point. Paterno would not have been credited for the wins. So he loses those wins. From the point they decided to cover it up is the point at which he should have been fired.

And saying they should lose wins =/= razing to the ground. In all due respect, I believe this attitude is part of the problem that allows this shit to happen. My mother and father were both professional athletes, as were my uncle and grandfather, so I'm hardly anti-jock. But people lose perspective and elevate sports way, way beyond it's importance in life.
I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Paterno was fired for the coverup, wasn't he? Had he reported the act, (not covered it up), he would have still been coach and still won those games, right? So how did the coverup result in those wins?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the NCAA benefits greatly from the elevation of sport beyond that which it is important in life, especially in regards to D-1 football; whose. Owl games are about the most perverted travesties ever committed upon competitive sport. It's about the money, from the top down, not he wins. Taking the wins away does nothing but try to undo the honest hard work of those unconnected to the connected. Its not like other coaches look at this and say, "wow, guess I better not cover up such a thing because they'll take wins!" nah, they'll say, "wow, if JoePa's rep couldn't make that go away, no one could--- better report it." only time will tell, bu I think th sport is worse off for having endured this ordeal and the NCAA ruling only attempts to negate JoePa's accomplishments from the record in the false belief that the good he did would overshadow the bad. JoePa's grand experiment failed when truly put a moral; no number of wins, on or off the record, I'll change that.

[logroller]

Tough to hear, but necessarily said.
Philadelphia, PA – Joe Paterno apologists, I used to be one of you. Not only did I revere the football coach from a distance, I idolized the makings of his "Grand Experiment," his morality over money moniker that made him appear so authentic and so grandfatherly.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/07/17/paternaround-joepa-tarnished-legacy/#ixzz21aAinp7t

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/07/17/paternaround-joepa-tarnished-legacy/

[jimnyc]

I'm certainly not an apologist for Paterno at this point, and I won't make excuses for his part in refraining from taking further action. But at the same time, I also don't see him as a monster like Sandusky. I will still hold Joe in high esteem for his 6 decades of work & dedication, and the humanitarian work he has done, and not to mention the millions and millions he poured back into PSU to make the college a better and better place. I won't simply forget all the good he has done in his life, as a family man, a father, a coach & a mentor for so many. As a life long PSU fan, I remain grateful for the memories and am still thankful for all that Paterno did.

But in the end, none of that excuses his indecision and turning his back on what was right. No amount of bragging about his biography will somehow make what he did somehow excusable. He made an error that can't be overlooked and cannot be forgotten.

But the latter doesn't and shouldn't erase his entire life. Just as his entire life shouldn't excuse his inaction.

[Kathianne]

and why, IMO, the feeling is the 'football program' needs to be punished. It's not about the student atheletes, other than the team making money:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/07/17/paternaround-joepa-tarnished-legacy/


"This wasn't a football scandal," it bellowed. In the simplest terms, that declaration was accurate. None of the former letter-winners were, to our best estimation, privy to this massacre or assisted in its deception. But honestly, this scandal had everything to do with the university's football culture, one in which I have been an active participant since I was old enough to walk.


Parts of the letter made perfect sense -- Penn State has always been a world- class institution, and always will be. LaVar Arrington and Chuck Fusina's accomplishments shouldn't be minimalized by this horrible tragedy.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/07/17/paternaround-joepa-tarnished-legacy/#ixzz21aPtAx8R

[Toro]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Paterno was fired for the coverup, wasn't he? Had he reported the act, (not covered it up), he would have still been coach and still won those games, right? So how did the coverup result in those wins?

It definitely is a football issue. They decided to cover it up because they thought it would harm the football program. Once they decided to cover it up, the cover-up allowed Paterno to keep coaching football. That's how it resulted in wins. No coach Paterno, no wins, at least for coach Paterno. So you vacate the wins. Think of vacating the wins as retroactively firing the coach. Instead of Paterno getting fired in 2011 for the cover-up, he would have been fired for the cover-up in 1998 had everyone known about it, and he would never had the chance to have won those games.

But this isn't just a football issue. Paterno was a leader on campus. We hold leaders to high standards. It's not good enough to walk a line between legal and illegal. Kids got raped. He is culpable because he allowed a rapist to remain on campus. Had he turned Sandusky in, kids wouldn't have been raped. If he hasn't committed an illegal act, he certainly committed an immoral one, one that is unacceptable for a leader of his stature. That is a fireable offense.

[Kathianne]

It definitely is a football issue. They decided to cover it up because they thought it would harm the football program. Once they decided to cover it up, the cover-up allowed Paterno to keep coaching football. That's how it resulted in wins. No coach Paterno, no wins, at least for coach Paterno. So you vacate the wins. Think of vacating the wins as retroactively firing the coach. Instead of Paterno getting fired in 2011 for the cover-up, he would have been fired for the cover-up in 1998 had everyone known about it, and he would never had the chance to have won those games.

But this isn't just a football issue. Paterno was a leader on campus. We hold leaders to high standards. It's not good enough to walk a line between legal and illegal. Kids got raped. He is culpable because he allowed a rapist to remain on campus. Had he turned Sandusky in, kids wouldn't have been raped. If he hasn't committed an illegal act, he certainly committed an immoral one, one that is unacceptable for a leader of his stature. That is a fireable offense.


It pains me to agree with Toro. Kids are being hurt and to some measure a degree from Penn State has been diminished. That was the choice though, back in 1998 when it was decided by the powers that be, to hush it. I was wrong then and today the piper is being paid.

[Toro]

It pains me to agree with Toro. Kids are being hurt and to some measure a degree from Penn State has been diminished. That was the choice though, back in 1998 when it was decided by the powers that be, to hush it. I was wrong then and today the piper is being paid.

It pains you?

lol

[Toro]

I'm certainly not an apologist for Paterno at this point, and I won't make excuses for his part in refraining from taking further action. But at the same time, I also don't see him as a monster like Sandusky. I will still hold Joe in high esteem for his 6 decades of work & dedication, and the humanitarian work he has done, and not to mention the millions and millions he poured back into PSU to make the college a better and better place. I won't simply forget all the good he has done in his life, as a family man, a father, a coach & a mentor for so many. As a life long PSU fan, I remain grateful for the memories and am still thankful for all that Paterno did.

But in the end, none of that excuses his indecision and turning his back on what was right. No amount of bragging about his biography will somehow make what he did somehow excusable. He made an error that can't be overlooked and cannot be forgotten.

But the latter doesn't and shouldn't erase his entire life. Just as his entire life shouldn't excuse his inaction.

I think as time moves on, and as emotions become less raw, we will look at his life in its entirety, and conclude that despite an extremely serious lapse in judgement, all in all, Paterno made a significant positive contribution to the university and society.

[jimnyc]

and why, IMO, the feeling is the 'football program' needs to be punished. It's not about the student atheletes, other than the team making money:

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/07/17/paternaround-joepa-tarnished-legacy/

I agree with that to an extent - the students being hurt, prior, current and those just receiving scholarships, are now being punished for being at the wrong school at the wrong time. It's a fine line, but I still think it should be done as best as possible to hurt the university officials, administrators, bank accounts and individuals directly involved, and try to limit any punishment to the innocent as much as possible. What they did here, really is chump change in comparison to kids feeling like their entire football/college careers have been sullied or ruined.

[jimnyc]

I think as time moves on, and as emotions become less raw, we will look at his life in its entirety, and conclude that despite an extremely serious lapse in judgement, all in all, Paterno made a significant positive contribution to the university and society.

He'll forever be linked between the 2 now, which is why I think officials wanted to remove the statue and other signs of Joe. But as you said, I think he made some very serious contributions, which he will and should be remembered for. But he made one helluva doozy of a mistake to close out his career. So he'll forever be remembered for that too, and in many eyes, that will be the first thought when hearing his name.

[Kathianne]

To a real degree, it seems more we are speaking of a patriarch at Notre Dame than a state school. Yet, should we expect less?

[jimnyc]

And on another thought, I wonder if now at 44yrs of age if I need to find a new college team to root for? I grew up with JoePa and PSU since I was about 5-6yrs old, even though I've never been there. I did apply and was accepted to go there, but Donald Trump ignored my plea to pay the tuition costs! Shit, like $40k a year or so back in the mid 80's. But it was all about the culture of the school, the family atmosphere, the football program where education always came first, and Joe Paterno making it all happen and being the face of the team. Now Joe tumbles down. Sandusky should get the death penalty. Who knows how many others assistants knew about this, in addition to McQueary. The board of directors suck and handled things terribly, and the president and AD committed crimes. I always stand by my teams through good times and bad times. But on so many levels they have let me down and I can't see them ever being the same in my eyes.

My hidden favorite outside of that, was my home favorite growing up, Rutgers. But man, other than a few decent years, they suck most of the time. Not that I am a band wagoner and need a team that wins bowl games every year, but not a perennial loser either.

I've taken a liking to Boise State in the past 3 years, maybe 4, with Kellen Moore on the reigns there and them coming out of nowhere for a few years as a smaller school to screw up the BCS standings. Before that they were an unknown.

Then there is Pitt, which shares a lot of stuff with the Steelers, and lots of players get special attention from the Steelers due to the vicinity. But again, another team that you probably won't ever see get the championship.

I feel like watching college football was kind of ruined for me!

[Kathianne]

And on another thought, I wonder if now at 44yrs of age if I need to find a new college team to root for? I grew up with JoePa and PSU since I was about 5-6yrs old, even though I've never been there. I did apply and was accepted to go there, but Donald Trump ignored my plea to pay the tuition costs! Shit, like $40k a year or so back in the mid 80's. But it was all about the culture of the school, the family atmosphere, the football program where education always came first, and Joe Paterno making it all happen and being the face of the team. Now Joe tumbles down. Sandusky should get the death penalty. Who knows how many others assistants knew about this, in addition to McQueary. The board of directors suck and handled things terribly, and the president and AD committed crimes. I always stand by my teams through good times and bad times. But on so many levels they have let me down and I can't see them ever being the same in my eyes.

My hidden favorite outside of that, was my home favorite growing up, Rutgers. But man, other than a few decent years, they suck most of the time. Not that I am a band wagoner and need a team that wins bowl games every year, but not a perennial loser either.

I've taken a liking to Boise State in the past 3 years, maybe 4, with Kellen Moore on the reigns there and them coming out of nowhere for a few years as a smaller school to screw up the BCS standings. Before that they were an unknown.

Then there is Pitt, which shares a lot of stuff with the Steelers, and lots of players get special attention from the Steelers due to the vicinity. But again, another team that you probably won't ever see get the championship.

I feel like watching college football was kind of ruined for me!

Seriously, I feel your pain. I remember in the 70's with U of Chi being no where in sports and proud of it, I just didn't get it. Then I read some.

A hint from NW, which didn't withdraw:

http://www.northwestern.edu/about/historic-moments/athletics/big-ten-conference.html

http://www.collegian.psu.edu:8080/archive/1996_jan-dec/01/01-11-96cm/01-11-96m01-002.htm

It's been a balancing act for all the schools that fit sports and academics on high plane. Northwestern has had its share of winners (few) and losers, as has Harvard, Yale, etc. None though have 'succeeded' like Penn, until this fall. Seriously, should a football team or chess team be able to make this impression of an academic institution?

[jimnyc]

I just explained to my wife my dilemma and she punched me in my face! Ok, maybe she didn't, but she did get snippy with me awfully quickly! I believe the team I will be "favoring" for now, is Virginia Tech. My wife is a graduate of 1989 and I've even visited the campus a few times. The woman grew up a few hours north of Blacksburg, Va, where the school is located. And not just for her history, but it was determined about 2 weeks after my son was born that he would be going there as well. And it's still sticking and he actually does want to go to the school that his Mommy went to. And we already have a houseful of VT memorabilia, both adult and kid stuff.

I do root for them when we watch their games together, the wife and I, so it wouldn't be too hard of a stretch I suppose.

[jimnyc]

Seriously, I feel your pain. I remember in the 70's with U of Chi being no where in sports and proud of it, I just didn't get it. Then I read some.

A hint from NW, which didn't withdraw:

http://www.northwestern.edu/about/historic-moments/athletics/big-ten-conference.html

http://www.collegian.psu.edu:8080/archive/1996_jan-dec/01/01-11-96cm/01-11-96m01-002.htm

It's been a balancing act for all the schools that fit sports and academics on high plane. Northwestern has had its share of winners (few) and losers, as has Harvard, Yale, etc. None though have 'succeeded' like Penn, until this fall. Seriously, should a football team or chess team be able to make this impression of an academic institution?

As a sports nut, I love to see a school that consistently draw bigger and better players and produce powerhouse teams. But at the same time, I have always have mucho respect for the Ivy League schools, and teams like West Point, and the Military teams. And then you see some nerdy type schools in engineering and such, where they win a game maybe like once every 10 years!

That's one of the main reasons I always loved Penn State. They were consistently a powerhouse team, but they always had grades first and it was a first class university that allowed for the best of both worlds.

I honestly am just learning about this NW stuff, good reading!

[Kathianne]

As a sports nut, I love to see a school that consistently draw bigger and better players and produce powerhouse teams. But at the same time, I have always have mucho respect for the Ivy League schools, and teams like West Point, and the Military teams. And then you see some nerdy type schools in engineering and such, where they win a game maybe like once every 10 years!

That's one of the main reasons I always loved Penn State. They were consistently a powerhouse team, but they always had grades first and it was a first class university that allowed for the best of both worlds.

I honestly am just learning about this NW stuff, good reading!

The problem with a Penn State or (ssshhh) Notre Dame, academics isn't coming a close second. There is no second, which is what U of Chi saw as the problem. It's still true. The bigger the program, the bigger the truth.

[Toro]

And on another thought, I wonder if now at 44yrs of age if I need to find a new college team to root for? I grew up with JoePa and PSU since I was about 5-6yrs old, even though I've never been there. I did apply and was accepted to go there, but Donald Trump ignored my plea to pay the tuition costs! Shit, like $40k a year or so back in the mid 80's. But it was all about the culture of the school, the family atmosphere, the football program where education always came first, and Joe Paterno making it all happen and being the face of the team. Now Joe tumbles down. Sandusky should get the death penalty. Who knows how many others assistants knew about this, in addition to McQueary. The board of directors suck and handled things terribly, and the president and AD committed crimes. I always stand by my teams through good times and bad times. But on so many levels they have let me down and I can't see them ever being the same in my eyes.

My hidden favorite outside of that, was my home favorite growing up, Rutgers. But man, other than a few decent years, they suck most of the time. Not that I am a band wagoner and need a team that wins bowl games every year, but not a perennial loser either.

I've taken a liking to Boise State in the past 3 years, maybe 4, with Kellen Moore on the reigns there and them coming out of nowhere for a few years as a smaller school to screw up the BCS standings. Before that they were an unknown.

Then there is Pitt, which shares a lot of stuff with the Steelers, and lots of players get special attention from the Steelers due to the vicinity. But again, another team that you probably won't ever see get the championship.

I feel like watching college football was kind of ruined for me!

My father played at Boise State. Go Broncos!

As a fellow 44 year-old, my own experience is that as I get older, sports matters to me less. I still have my favourite teams, but it doesn't bother me as much as it did in the past if they lost. And it used to bother me immensely. I once put my hand through a wall when my hockey team lost. When the US beat Canada in the 1996 World Cup of hockey, I didn't sleep for two days. When my football team lost on Sunday, I'd be depressed until Tuesday. But as I got older, I realized that sports didn't really effect my life. It had nothing to do with what really mattered to me. It didn't hurt my family. It didn't effect my job. I didn't lose any friends over it. So I realized that I could have the best of both worlds. I could be happy when my team won, and when they lost, realize that it didn't effect me in any real way. Now, I find myself watching games just to enjoy the game, as opposed to rooting for one side or the other.

[Kathianne]

My father played at Boise State. Go Broncos!

As a fellow 44 year-old, my own experience is that as I get older, sports matters to me less. I still have my favourite teams, but it doesn't bother me as much as it did in the past if they lost. And it used to bother me immensely. I once put my hand through a wall when my hockey team lost. When the US beat Canada in the 1996 World Cup of hockey, I didn't sleep for two days. When my football team lost on Sunday, I'd be depressed until Tuesday. But as I got older, I realized that sports didn't really effect my life. It had nothing to do with what really mattered to me. It didn't hurt my family. It didn't effect my job. I didn't lose any friends over it. So I realized that I could have the best of both worlds. I could be happy when my team won, and when they lost, realize that it didn't effect me in any real way. Now, I find myself watching games just to enjoy the game, as opposed to rooting for one side or the other.

i hear you, competitively. I get my dander up with US News & World Reports and best colleges. Where does U of C fall? Top 10 or 20? Usually comes in top 5-8k beating NW, which is all that matters. :laugh2:

Actually my 'proudest moment' regarding alma maters came when my last BA school was cited for 'best bargain' for liberal arts colleges 4 or 5 years back.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/elmhurst-college-1676

[Kathianne]

Note were not even addressing the issues of those coming in as 'top of their class' freshmen thinking they were going to not only an elite academic institution, but a football powerhouse. Not meant to be.

http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1388486&PT=4&PR=2

http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1388486&PT=4&PR=2 (http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1388486&PT=4&PR=2)