Man challenges U.S. Check point... [Archive] - Debate Policy

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revelarts

07-12-2012, 06:09 AM

ringotuna

07-12-2012, 06:19 AM

Contrived drama. Give those BP agents credit for maintaining their professionalism in the face of an obstinant idiot trying to produce a youtube gotcha.

revelarts

07-12-2012, 06:24 AM

Contrived drama. Give those BP agents credit for maintaining their professionalism in the face of an obstinant idiot trying to produce a youtube gotcha.
Ok .. sure he may be an obstinate idiot...

But should we be stopped on the road for check points in america?

ConHog

07-12-2012, 08:22 AM

I'd like to go free on my way...
turned out pretty well considering...
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fDCXzqgD99o?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

How about some context Rev? As far as I know BP only has checkpoints you know AT THE BORDER. Tough shit if you or anyone else would prefer there not be a checkpoint there.

This guy should have went to jail. Or been deported to Mexico. All he had to say was "yes, I'm an citizen" boom done. Instead of being an asshole.

You cry about police state, but perhaps if people would stop thumbing their nose at police at every turn police could in return relax themselves.

I really would like to see you and others like you try to do a very difficult job with assholes like this making it worse.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-12-2012, 08:24 AM

Ok .. sure he may be an obstinate idiot...

But should we be stopped on the road for check points in america?

Yes but only if there has been a known crime committed and your vehicle matches the vehicle that is known to be involved in the crime! Or if you match the description of the person having just did the crime. Myself, I view even DUI checkpoints as unconstitutional for they assume all citizens guilty of committing an offense just by being on the road and driving. They blanketly assume guilt until after they force the drivers to speak to authorities and/or take a test.. I do not drink and drive but law enforcement have overstepped their legal authority with blanketed checkpoints that have no known criminal act that has already happened to be check pointing for IMHO.
Illegal search/seizures and detainment based upon assuming the guilt of all citizens before that of innocence.
Our Founders maintained that our government should be bound in chains and we citizens free not the opposite!!!.. --The opposite is Socialism and that is what we have TOO DAMN MUCH OF ALREADY!! Tyr

jimnyc

07-12-2012, 08:30 AM

ConHog

07-12-2012, 08:46 AM

revelarts

07-12-2012, 08:48 AM

revelarts

07-12-2012, 08:49 AM

Which is why I think two things should be mandatory in all police situations.

1. ALL LEO encounters must be recorded by the LEOs involved
2. It be made illegal to record a LEO doing his job, but government copies of said incidents be made available to involved parties.

self policing Con, that's the best way to do it?

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-12-2012, 08:53 AM

I'm not a fan of checkpoints, speed traps and other things where the government 'might' be overstepping things. But honestly, I'm also getting tired of the 'cell phone youtubers' out there daily trying to make a viral video by purposely pushing the buttons of those simply doing their jobs.

I agree with that. However when that person's job is actually Unconsitutionally limiting my freedoms I draw a line myself and will never sit idly by with my voice unheard. Our right to speak out against injustice is a basic tenent of our society/culture and a basic right insured by our Constitution. Currently our government is on a campaign to further limit just about all our basic rights. Police have no true authority to just stop me for no reason at all except to assume that I may have already broken the law by my simply being on the road driving? And how many times when set up at the edge of a town has one had to drivev thru a checkpint 3 or 4 times being stopped each time even by the same officer instead of being waved on thru? I have and after the third time I cursed the dam officer for he knew me personally and my car yet forced me to stop only minutes apart each time. I couldnt avoid the checkpoint as the address I was taking people to and from was at the end of that checkpoint. 4times and he told me should I come again I'd have to stop (be interrogated again), ffing illegal and insane IMO..-Tyr

jimnyc

07-12-2012, 08:57 AM

jimnyc

07-12-2012, 08:58 AM

I agree with that. However when that person's job is actually Unconsitutionally limiting my freedoms I draw a line myself and will never sit idly by with my voice unheard. Our right to speak out against injustice is a basic tenent of our society/culture and a basic right insured by our Constitution. Currently our government is on a campaign to further limit just about all our basic rights. Police have no true authority to just stop me for no reason at all except to assume that I may have already broken the law by my simply being on the road driving? And how many times when set up at the edge of a town has one had to drivev thru a checkpint 3 or 4 times being stopped each time even by the same officer instead of being waved on thru? I have and after the third time I cursed the dam officer for he knew me personally and my car yet forced me to stop only minutes apart each time. I couldnt avoid the checkpoint as the address I was taking people to and from was at the end of that checkpoint. 4times and he told me should I come again I'd have to stop (be interrogated again), ffing illegal and insane IMO..-Tyr

Many people make claims that any and all checkpoints are unconstitutional. Has the SC ruled on this issue? Why don't people take it to the courts and fight it in the appropriate manner?

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-12-2012, 09:06 AM

self policing Con, that's the best way to do it?

Sure , remember the Gestapo surely held it was illegal to question thier authority too. So illegal in fact they often shot people on the spot for doing so or even just for the hell of it.. Lets make LEO's so Godlike that not only can we never record or question their constitutional abuses but perhaps we have to fall down and bow to them too whenever they approach us also! Maybe even kiss their damn feet too! Ridiculously blind and silly wanting to give them even more power to abuse with IMO. Some people like to blend their socialism with fascism in order to get their daily does of shitpie to eat and such appeasors betray our nation on a daily basis, America has plenty of such appeasors. . People that are ever so quick to replace their rights as free citizens in order to increase police authority are surely favoring facism and more Gestapo like power authority over our Constitution IMHO.-Tyr

cadet

07-12-2012, 09:09 AM

I am absolutely fine with checkpoints. I'm legal, I have nothing to worry about. If you're illegal, then you might have something to worry about.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-12-2012, 09:11 AM

Many people make claims that any and all checkpoints are unconstitutional. Has the SC ruled on this issue? Why don't people take it to the courts and fight it in the appropriate manner?
Back in the early 90's SCOTUS upheld sobriety checkpoints were constitutional. Vote was split 6 to 3 in favor if memory serves me well. Rehnquist wrote the majority opinion I believe. -Tyr

edit- I disagree with the decision as did 3 SCOTUS judges.

Nukeman

07-12-2012, 09:14 AM

I am absolutely fine with checkpoints. I'm legal, I have nothing to worry about. If you're illegal, then you might have something to worry about.
how about for seatbelts, drunk driving, speeding, heck why stop there why not stop you to see if you have a license or proper insurance. Check points become VERY slippery and the potential for abuse is very high... Give an inch and they take a mile!!!!

revelarts

07-12-2012, 09:23 AM

Rev, as to that video about people wanting forms to make complaints... When there is an auto accident, or a domestic incident, or ANY incident that requires police - do you let them look into the issue when they arrive, or do you just ask for forms to fill out? It's normal that if you go into a station to file a complaint, that a superior officer, or detective, will investigate your complaint, and then they fill out appropriate paperwork. Or one has the right to just contact internal affairs. Or simply send a certified letter to the commanding officer.

I'm glad you know all of the ways to get it done, But what about someone who doesn't?
And you just gave more information than any of the police in the video did.
I don't know whats not shown but based on the "let me see your ID?" and "tell me what happened before i give you a form" responses i suspect they didn't give any of the options/advice you mentioned

But to go into station houses and demand forms that don't exist, refuse to give ID, refuse to give details on what you want to complain about... I would toss them out too.
why?
And you fail to mention that some were arrested for asking.
Why do you omit any comment about that?

Jim what those police did was BS.
They should have just given the forms end of story. there's no need to ID people not suspected.
They don't need to know jack. When the form comes back then they can determine if the complaint is legit.

jimnyc

07-12-2012, 09:37 AM

I'm glad you know all of the ways to get it done, But what about someone who doesn't?
And you just gave more information than any of the police in the video did.
I don't know whats not shown but based on the "let me see your ID?" and "tell me what happened before i give you a form" responses i suspect they didn't give any of the options/advice you mentioned

why?
And you fail to mention that some were arrested for asking.
Why do you omit any comment about that?

Jim what those police did was BS.
They should have just given the forms end of story. there's no need to ID people not suspected.
They don't need to know jack. When the form comes back then they can determine if the complaint is legit.

Because I watched about the first 3 minutes or so and cut it off, you should be happy I made it that far! LOL

What forms should they have just given them, Rev? Please be specific...

ConHog

07-12-2012, 09:43 AM

how about for seatbelts, drunk driving, speeding, heck why stop there why not stop you to see if you have a license or proper insurance. Check points become VERY slippery and the potential for abuse is very high... Give an inch and they take a mile!!!!

Short answer? No on most of those. SCOTUS was VERY clear that a very clear and present danger must exist in order for checkpoints to be valid. I think we can all agree reasonably agree that drunk drivers present a clear and immediate danger. Seat belts, license checks? No

Unless you're arguing that police shouldn't even be able to pull you over when they observe you doing something illegal, in which case ridiculous.

revelarts

07-12-2012, 09:55 AM

Because I watched about the first 3 minutes or so and cut it off, you should be happy I made it that far! LOL

What forms should they have just given them, Rev? Please be specific...

a form like these:

http://phillypolice.com/forms/official-complaint-form/

POLICE COMPLAINT FORM (http://www.cityofriesel.com/pol-com.pdf)

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The Independent Police Complaints Commission's (IPCC) main role is to increase public ... Make your complaint online Downloadable complaint form ...
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OPA - The Seattle Police Department (http://www.seattle.gov/police/opa/complaintform.htm)

Seattle Police Department - Home Page ... ONLINE OPA Complaint form ... your personal information except as necessary to resolve your request or complaint.
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FILE A COMMENDATION OR COMPLAINT - Los Angeles Police ... (http://www.lapdonline.org/our_communities/content_basic_view/9217)

If you do not wish to make the complaint in person, you may obtain a "Complaint of Employee Misconduct" form from any Los Angeles Police station, the Police ...
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Filing a Complaint (http://city.milwaukee.gov/fpc/Complaints)

Complaint forms can be mailed to you or you can click here to ...
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Boston Police Complaint Form - City of Boston (http://www.cityofboston.gov/police/complaints/pdfs/complaint_form.pdf)

Complaint Information Form. DEPARTMENT. If you have a complaint concerning a Boston Police employee, you can use this form to contact the Internal Affairs ...
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OPC: Forms and Brochures - Office of Police Complaints (http://occr.dc.gov/occr/cwp/view.asp?a=3&Q=495680&occrNav=%7C31082%7C)

Forms and Brochures Abstract: Forms and Brochures The Office of Police Complaints provides two types of complaint forms in PDF format. The first form can be ...
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File a Complaint - Fairfax County, Virginia (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/inside-fcpd/internal-affairs-file-complaint.htm)

The Internal Affairs Bureau handles complaints about police performance and services. ... This form is used to file a complaint regarding an officer's or other ...
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Complaints and Concerns - Fairfax County, Virginia (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/complaints/)

File complaints and concerns online to Fairfax County. ... Home. Overcrowding and Illegal Boarding House Report Form ... Police Department Complaint Form ...
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Online Complaint Form - City of Plano - Home (http://www.plano.gov/Departments/Police/Contact%20Information/Pages/complaint_form.aspx)

The Department recognizes the importance of protecting the community from employees who have demonstrated acts of misconduct or have shown they are ...
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PSP Compliment/Complaint Procedures - Pennsylvania State Police (http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=4451&&PageID=458608&mode=2)

SP1-108 - Pennsylvania State Police Complaint Verification Form - Adobe PDF. Please Note: The above form can be viewed using Adobe Acrobat Reader.
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IPCA Online Complaint Form (http://www.ipca.govt.nz/tools/email.aspx?SECT=complaints)

Independent Police Conduct Authority - IPCA ... Online complaint form ... You can also make your complaint directly to the Police by visiting a Police station.
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<form action="https://s5-us4.startpage.com/do/search" id="pnform" name="pnform" method="POST" style="display: inline; width: 30px;" align="center"> 1 2345678910</form>
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</form>

They should have just given them the forms and that would have been the end of it.

jimnyc

07-12-2012, 10:02 AM

Well then, it looks like there are MORE than ample ways to file complaints, without having to use a secret camera to play gotcha with the police.

ConHog

07-12-2012, 10:08 AM

a form like these:

http://phillypolice.com/forms/official-complaint-form/

POLICE COMPLAINT FORM (http://www.cityofriesel.com/pol-com.pdf)

POLICE COMPLAINT FORM. Revised 07/21/2008. PC §37.02. Perjury. (a) A person commits an offense if, with intent to deceive and with knowledge of ...
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Philadelphia Police Department | Official Complaint Form (http://phillypolice.com/forms/official-complaint-form/)

Fill out this form if you wish to file a formal and official complaint against police ( CAP) with the Philadelphia Police Department. This electronic form will be sent ...
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Downloadable Forms - Police - City of Davis (http://cityofdavis.org/police/forms/)

Police Downloadable Forms. Form Name, Update Date.
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Police Complaint Form — City of Albuquerque (http://www.cabq.gov/iro/police-complaint-form/)

Police Complaint Form. A complaint must be submitted within 90 days of the incident. The online form below initiates a complaint with the Independent Review ...
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NYC Civilian Complaint Review Board - Complaint Form (https://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/html/complaint.html)

If you wish to file a complaint against a member of the New York City Police Department through our website, please complete the form below. Please fill in as ...
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Police Complaint Form » Penn Public Safety (http://www.publicsafety.upenn.edu/forms/police-complaint-form/)

Police Complaint Form. The University of Pennsylvania Police Department ( UPPD) adheres to the policy of investigating all allegations of misconduct or ...
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Online forms - Independent Police Complaints Commission (http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/en/Pages/forms.aspx)

Please note that, while we try and forward new complaints to the police force concerned within 2-6 working days, we do receive high volumes of correspondence ...
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Complaints - Independent Police Complaints Commission (http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/en/Pages/complaints.aspx)

The Independent Police Complaints Commission's (IPCC) main role is to increase public ... Make your complaint online Downloadable complaint form ...
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OPA - The Seattle Police Department (http://www.seattle.gov/police/opa/complaintform.htm)

Seattle Police Department - Home Page ... ONLINE OPA Complaint form ... your personal information except as necessary to resolve your request or complaint.
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FILE A COMMENDATION OR COMPLAINT - Los Angeles Police ... (http://www.lapdonline.org/our_communities/content_basic_view/9217)

If you do not wish to make the complaint in person, you may obtain a "Complaint of Employee Misconduct" form from any Los Angeles Police station, the Police ...
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Filing a Complaint (http://city.milwaukee.gov/fpc/Complaints)

Complaint forms can be mailed to you or you can click here to ...
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Boston Police Complaint Form - City of Boston (http://www.cityofboston.gov/police/complaints/pdfs/complaint_form.pdf)

Complaint Information Form. DEPARTMENT. If you have a complaint concerning a Boston Police employee, you can use this form to contact the Internal Affairs ...
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OPC: Forms and Brochures - Office of Police Complaints (http://occr.dc.gov/occr/cwp/view.asp?a=3&Q=495680&occrNav=%7C31082%7C)

Forms and Brochures Abstract: Forms and Brochures The Office of Police Complaints provides two types of complaint forms in PDF format. The first form can be ...
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File a Complaint - Fairfax County, Virginia (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/inside-fcpd/internal-affairs-file-complaint.htm)

The Internal Affairs Bureau handles complaints about police performance and services. ... This form is used to file a complaint regarding an officer's or other ...
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Complaints and Concerns - Fairfax County, Virginia (http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/complaints/)

File complaints and concerns online to Fairfax County. ... Home. Overcrowding and Illegal Boarding House Report Form ... Police Department Complaint Form ...
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Online Complaint Form - City of Plano - Home (http://www.plano.gov/Departments/Police/Contact%20Information/Pages/complaint_form.aspx)

The Department recognizes the importance of protecting the community from employees who have demonstrated acts of misconduct or have shown they are ...
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PSP Compliment/Complaint Procedures - Pennsylvania State Police (http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=4451&&PageID=458608&mode=2)

SP1-108 - Pennsylvania State Police Complaint Verification Form - Adobe PDF. Please Note: The above form can be viewed using Adobe Acrobat Reader.
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IPCA Online Complaint Form (http://www.ipca.govt.nz/tools/email.aspx?SECT=complaints)

Independent Police Conduct Authority - IPCA ... Online complaint form ... You can also make your complaint directly to the Police by visiting a Police station.
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They should have just given them the forms and that would have been the end of it.

It seems to me that providing downloadable forms online rather than wasting an officer's time with handing them out at the station is saving taxpayer dollars. Not to mention the paper cost.

BTW have you any idea the percentage of complaints filed against police which turn out to be bogus? So yes, makes sense to tell people "were not wasting salary on someone to sit there and handout forms that you can download at home"

ConHog

07-12-2012, 10:09 AM

Well then, it looks like there are MORE than ample ways to file complaints, without having to use a secret camera to play gotcha with the police.

But Jim, then how could one get their 15 minutes of fame?

revelarts

07-12-2012, 10:20 AM

Well then, it looks like there are MORE than ample ways to file complaints, without having to use a secret camera to play gotcha with the police.

So jim,
why didn't they just hand them a printed version, many of these are PDf and most station have printed versions as well.
you keep evading the problem and blaming the person, and excusing the craptastic cops in the video.
why.

why is it so hard to say.
---those paticular cops handled it badly and it looks like it might be an area where cops need shape up---
or at least say somthing like,
--those few specific cops need to shape up but all other police are pure and noble, those guys give police a bad name. --
then can you go on to make fun of or attack a potential police abuse victim for the horrible offense of asking for a piece a paper from a cop.

revelarts

07-12-2012, 10:24 AM

It seems to me that providing downloadable forms online rather than wasting an officer's time with handing them out at the station is saving taxpayer dollars. Not to mention the paper cost.

BTW have you any idea the percentage of complaints filed against police which turn out to be bogus? So yes, makes sense to tell people "were not wasting salary on someone to sit there and handout forms that you can download at home"

:rolleyes:

jimnyc

07-12-2012, 10:27 AM

So jim,
why didn't they just hand them a printed version, many of these are PDf and most station have printed versions as well.
you keep evading the problem and blaming the person, and excusing the craptastic cops in the video.
why.

why is it so hard to say.
---those paticular cops handled it badly and it looks like it might be an area where cops need shape up---
or at least say somthing like,
--those few specific cops need to shape up but all other police are pure and noble, those guys give police a bad name. --
then can you go on to make fun of or attack a potential police abuse victim for the horrible offense of asking for a piece a paper from a cop.

They probably gave the majority of them a hard time based on the attitudes they displayed. And this is what they expected to do, or they wouldn't have felt they needed a camera to simply ask for a piece of paper. The majority knew what they were doing, IMO.

ConHog

07-12-2012, 10:34 AM

They probably gave the majority of them a hard time based on the attitudes they displayed. And this is what they expected to do, or they wouldn't have felt they needed a camera to simply ask for a piece of paper. The majority knew what they were doing, IMO.

Yep, there are people who actively look to provoke cops, everyone is looking for their rodney king payout.

It's hilarious that Rev condemns those who "say the cops never do wrong" but refuses to admit that MOST people who have bad encounters with LEOs bring it on themselves.

ConHog

07-12-2012, 10:38 AM

:rolleyes:

Are you denying that significant financial savings can be realized by not providing printed copies of every form to everyone who asks?

If you have a legitimate complaint about the police in your town get online and print out a complaint form. How hard is that?

mundame

07-12-2012, 10:57 AM

Back in the early 90's SCOTUS upheld sobriety checkpoints were constitutional. Vote was split 6 to 3 in favor if memory serves me well. Rehnquist wrote the majority opinion I believe. -Tyr

edit- I disagree with the decision as did 3 SCOTUS judges.

I've always wondered about that. They don't FEEL legal, somehow.

On the other hand, I'm okay with entrapment of Muslims talking terrorism. Checkpoints may not be too different; crime prevention of a proactive sort.

revelarts

07-12-2012, 11:23 AM

Nukeman

07-12-2012, 01:49 PM

Short answer? No on most of those. SCOTUS was VERY clear that a very clear and present danger must exist in order for checkpoints to be valid. I think we can all agree reasonably agree that drunk drivers present a clear and immediate danger. Seat belts, license checks? No

Unless you're arguing that police shouldn't even be able to pull you over when they observe you doing something illegal, in which case ridiculous.
Mind showing me where I said that?? go on do it!!!!

As for your comment earlier about NOT being able to film LEO's Why??? If they can film me I should be able to film them as well, last I checked they are citizens like you and I and if they can video while being on the job and I give up MY rights to privacy in a PUBLIC setting SO DO THEY?? Or are you saying they have SPECIAL privileges?? That is a VERY slippery slope if that is in fact what you're saying!?!?!? They can be given special immunity for actions in the line of duty but NEVER special privileges!!!!!!

ConHog

07-12-2012, 01:59 PM

Mind showing me where I said that?? go on do it!!!!

As for your comment earlier about NOT being able to film LEO's Why??? If they can film me I should be able to film them as well, last I checked they are citizens like you and I and if they can video while being on the job and I give up MY rights to privacy in a PUBLIC setting SO DO THEY?? Or are you saying they have SPECIAL privileges?? That is a VERY slippery slope if that is in fact what you're saying!?!?!? They can be given special immunity for actions in the line of duty but NEVER special privileges!!!!!!

I will just assume that you realized I was asking you if that is what you were saying, not saying that is what you said. Doubly so since you in fact employed the same method of questioning.

And damn right , it should be illegal to film cops doing their jobs , mostly b/c most of the people who do so are assholes who are also trying to incite people into acting against the police. That is an inarguable fact.

Now that's not to say if you get pulled over for speeding and the guy next to you is quietly recording the stop that I think they should haul his ass to jail, not every crime is prosecuted and I think you know that to; but the idiot on the corner who has nothing to do with the incident and is yelling "fuck no, fuck the police........" and trying to rile up other people, yes he should be prosecuted.

And by the way I made it pretty clear that I believe that police should be required to video and audio everything and that those recordings should be available to the public. If all you cared about was video evidence of an encounter that would suffice.

Nukeman

07-12-2012, 02:07 PM

I will just assume that you realized I was asking you if that is what you were saying, not saying that is what you said. Doubly so since you in fact employed the same method of questioning.

And damn right , it should be illegal to film cops doing their jobs , mostly b/c most of the people who do so are assholes who are also trying to incite people into acting against the police. That is an inarguable fact.

Now that's not to say if you get pulled over for speeding and the guy next to you is quietly recording the stop that I think they should haul his ass to jail, not every crime is prosecuted and I think you know that to; but the idiot on the corner who has nothing to do with the incident and is yelling "fuck no, fuck the police........" and trying to rile up other people, yes he should be prosecuted.

And by the way I made it pretty clear that I believe that police should be required to video and audio everything and that those recordings should be available to the public. If all you cared about was video evidence of an encounter that would suffice.
And just as we have with the TSA currently, every time they have an "issue" "oh those cameras weren't working that day" Kind of funny don'tcha think?? EVERY TIME the TSA has an issue no camera's hmm??? how can that be???

IF I give up my right to privacy in the public SO DO THE POLICE!! Simple as that we all enjoy and suffer under the SAME freedoms or we end up having different classes of citizens.

Just because some people are assholes does not mean something should be illegal, by that rational all sporting events, all alcohol, and all personal driving would be illegal if all it takes is being an ass!!!!! Wrong argument for SPECIAL privileges!!!

ConHog

07-12-2012, 02:16 PM

And just as we have with the TSA currently, every time they have an "issue" "oh those cameras weren't working that day" Kind of funny don'tcha think?? EVERY TIME the TSA has an issue no camera's hmm??? how can that be???

IF I give up my right to privacy in the public SO DO THE POLICE!! Simple as that we all enjoy and suffer under the SAME freedoms or we end up having different classes of citizens.

Just because some people are assholes does not mean something should be illegal, by that rational all sporting events, all alcohol, and all personal driving would be illegal if all it takes is being an ass!!!!! Wrong argument for SPECIAL privileges!!!

Okay seriously, please post examples of times where the TSA has said "oh sorry the cameras weren't working that day." I've never seen that. I have seen instances where things happened in areas where there are no cameras. I'd have cameras everywhere, and yes I'd fire someone if the camera "didn't work"

I don't know about in other states but in Arkansas a cop can be fired for not videotaping encounters, especially if they fired a weapon during the incident.

revelarts

07-12-2012, 02:29 PM

...
And by the way I made it pretty clear that I believe that police should be required to video and audio everything and that those recordings should be available to the public. If all you cared about was video evidence of an encounter that would suffice.

"There is video camera (footage) showing what happened in the back seat, clearly shows that the Officer Schoen, with a closed fist, punches Ms. Tracy in her head at least four times," Tracy's attorney, Todd Korb said.

Tracy has hired a lawyer and despite repeated requests, police have not released that video to 12 News.

When approached to speak about the incident at his home, Schoen refused to comment.
Tracy said she's thankful the department fired Schoen, but is frustrated the district attorney chose not to file criminal charges against him.

"If you did it to me, you would get in trouble, if I did it to you, I would get in trouble. So I thought -- I feel like he should have been charged for what he did to me," Tracy said.

Read more: http://www.wisn.com/news/south-east-wisconsin/milwaukee/Police-beating-victim-speaks-out/-/10148890/13393078/-/iu15chz/-/index.html#ixzz20RD5tTNL

Fairfax County, VA police refuse to release video of traffic stop during which officer killed unarmed man
In November, 2009, a Fairfax County police officer stopped motorist David Masters who was wanted for allegedly ripping some flowers out of a planter at a landscaping business. During the traffic stop, a police officer shot and killed Masters. Masters was seated in the driver’s seat of his car and unarmed at the time of the shooting. Masters was also reported as being bipolar, though the officers present at the traffic did not know this at the time.
Masters had also been stopped by the police the day before the shooting for speeding. During this first incident, Masters allegedly drove slowly for over a mile before stopping and accepting two traffic violation tickets.
On January 27, 2010, prosecutors announced that no charges would be filed against the officer who killed Masters. According to Fairfax Commonwealth’s Attorney Raymond F. Morrogh, the officer was justified because he thought he saw Masters reaching for a weapon. Several other witnesses were interviewed about the shooting, but not a single one of them reported seeing Masters make this alleged movement including two other police officers who were present.

According to Police Public Information Officer Mary Ann Jennings, police recorded the traffic stop with dashcams, however, she said the video does not include the shooting. Police and prosecutors have refused requests to release this video to the public. In fact, the police and prosecutors have refused to release police reports about the incident and even the name of the officer who shot Masters. “What does the name of an officer give the public in terms of information and disclosure?” Jennings asked rhetorically. “I’d be curious to know why [members of the press] want the name of an officer.”

Sources:

Pete Earley, “Mental illness is no ‘explanation’ in Fairfax police shooting” (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/05/AR2010020503177.html) (Feb. 7th, 2010), The Washington Post
Tom Jackman, “Fairfax County police officer cleared in fatal shooting” (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/27/AR2010012704730.html) (Jan. 28, 2010), The Washington Post
Tom Jackman, “Witness recounts fatal shooting of driver by Fairfax police” (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/19/AR2009111904105.html) (Nov. 20th, 2009), The Washington Post
Michael Pope, “Transparency Blackout” (http://connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=338832&paper=59&cat=104) (Mar. 18th, 2010), ConnectionNewspapers.com
Michael Pope, “Virginia Law Allows For Lack Of Transparency” (http://wamu.org/news/10/03/22.php#33126) (Mar. 22nd, 2010), WAMU.org

One reason why the gov't ALONE cannot be trusted as the only ones with cameras.

ConHog

07-12-2012, 02:33 PM

One reason why the gov't ALONE cannot be trust as the only ones with cameras.

That doesn't refute what I have stated Rev b/c I have made it plain that I believe they should HAVE to make the video available to the public. Now for privacy issues I think it should be limited to the person involved or their families in cases like the one you posted above, but that doesn't change the fact that I think that in THIS case the city is wrong for not releasing the video and that has NO bearing on whether individuals should be allowed to video police.

revelarts

07-12-2012, 02:38 PM

That doesn't refute what I have stated Rev b/c I have made it plain that I believe they should HAVE to make the video available to the public. Now for privacy issues I think it should be limited to the person involved or their families in cases like the one you posted above, but that doesn't change the fact that I think that in THIS case the city is wrong for not releasing the video and that has NO bearing on whether individuals should be allowed to video police.

If a bystander had video taped the incidents it wouldn't matter if the police and prosecutors and mayor etc decided not to release the the dash cam video would it? Unless they have the right to toss the filming bystander in jail too.

ringotuna

07-12-2012, 04:42 PM

Ok .. sure he may be an obstinate idiot...

But should we be stopped on the road for check points in america?

I don't have a problem with them myself. I've been through them many dozens of times. It's never been more than a greeting, a question, an answer, and a "thank you sir have a good day."

Perminant checkpoints have been around for as long as I can remember. They are usually located 20 to 30 miles from the border, on major routes leading away from Mexico.

Tuna Trivia: It was at one of these perminant checkpoints, located SE of El Paso on I-10 where Willie Nelson was busted for possession. The Hudspeth County prosecutor there in Sierra Blanca, Kit Bramblett is an old family friend.

aboutime

07-12-2012, 06:27 PM

I don't have a problem with them myself. I've been through them many dozens of times. It's never been more than a greeting, a question, an answer, and a "thank you sir have a good day."

Perminant checkpoints have been around for as long as I can remember. They are usually located 20 to 30 miles from the border, on major routes leading away from Mexico.

Tuna Trivia: It was at one of these perminant checkpoints, located SE of El Paso on I-10 where Willie Nelson was busted for possession. The Hudspeth County prosecutor there in Sierra Blanca, Kit Bramblett is an old family friend.

I'd feel much more secure if I was traveling anywhere near our Southern Border with Mexico...knowing there were checkpoints along the way.
This seems to just be another one of those Supposed Threats to Privacy that some must always claim...infringes on their rights.

But. As we have been saying now for many years. What is there to fear IF...you have nothing to hide?
How much interference in your life is a FEW minutes along a road where someone might just take aim at you...for being a GRINGO???

revelarts

07-12-2012, 07:31 PM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-12-2012, 07:38 PM

I'd feel much more secure if I was traveling anywhere near our Southern Border with Mexico...knowing there were checkpoints along the way.
This seems to just be another one of those Supposed Threats to Privacy that some must always claim...infringes on their rights.

But. As we have been saying now for many years. What is there to fear IF...you have nothing to hide?
How much interference in your life is a FEW minutes along a road where someone might just take aim at you...for being a GRINGO???

My friend , my objections were about those checkpoints not down at the border where there is so much criminal activity ,violence and smuggling. An entirely different matter because thanks to obama its an undeclared war zone down there at the border! Obama and crew(Holder, etc.) arming the drug gangs to further spread murder, chaos and mayhem. That justification does not apply in most other states IMHO .-Tyr

revelarts

08-03-2012, 01:38 PM

revelarts

08-03-2012, 01:53 PM

Open Carry Group in the "Steak & Shake" confronted by police. KS city, MO.

they refuse to show ID. cops leave after managr refuses to throw them out.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/cIQJ_FJ8zsQ?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

vivala america

jimnyc

08-03-2012, 02:03 PM

Wow, imagine that, a restaurant, with gents and lots of guns, plenty of children around, and someone calls the police. Then the police try and do their jobs and ensure the safety of everyone in and around the area.

At least this time it wasn't some purposely trying to lure the police out to wherever they are so they can plan a video attack for Youtube.

fj1200

08-03-2012, 04:06 PM

Open Carry Group in the "Steak & Shake" confronted by police. KS city, MO.

they refuse to show ID. cops leave after managr refuses to throw them out.

vivala america

What law were they supposedly violating?

revelarts

08-03-2012, 04:20 PM

The "you look threatening" law
or
the "why do have a gun in public without a badge" -law.
or
the "we got a phone call and people feel nervous so we need to make sure you know your place" law
or
the "We are police and don't really know the law" law

I don't know, I guess they where just checking them out, which is fine, but once they refuse to show ID and they see that there's no problem they should have just left or sat down and had a burger.

revelarts

08-03-2012, 05:25 PM

jimnyc

08-03-2012, 06:04 PM

"we have reaction just in to our newsroom... from a seattle man arrested after refusing to show his i-d to security agents at the sunport ... and filming the incident. just about an hour ago... an albuquerque jury cleared phil mocek of all charges. "it's been a long time - i feel good that we had police and tsa on record saying that you don't have to show id to fly and that you can use a camera at the airport." phil mocek faced charges including disorderly conduct, and concealing his identity... following the 2009 incident. the defense argued mocek didn't hide his identity... because he had a boarding pass with his name on it."

Rev, wouldn't just in sort of mean it was recent? LOL This was eons ago, as this guy has a distinctive name and I recall a long time back talking about this. Just did a search, and it wasn't here, but I know I talked about this!

jimnyc

08-03-2012, 06:19 PM

Now I know why it seemed so familiar, this happened in 2009 and the case was decided in his favor back in January of this year.

But He's obviously right, and not just at the airport, there are many times/places that a citizen is not required to produce their ID. And just like videotaping an officer on the street arresting someone, not illegal either unless one is making the situation dangerous or impeding the officer.

The airports OR carriers should make a simple change on the ticket purchases going forth. You are required, and be prepared, to show your picture ID when at the purchasing window, security gates and boarding gates. If a person flying refuses, then very politely decline their access to the flight. Buying a ticket is a contract, and certainly not a right, and the airlines should just politely send those refusing to cooperate to another airline.

And before anyone jumps on me about "not cooperating", after 9/11, and the underwear bomber and other events broken up before they can happen - I'd like at the very least for the people I am flying with to have been ID'd to ensure they are the person on the ticket.

jimnyc

08-03-2012, 06:28 PM

And it would appear that even after Mocek's acquittal, the TSA isn't changing their stance totally.

***Update 1/30/2011 I referred to recent media coverage (which was all about Mr. Mocek's acquittal). The purpose of the blog was to focus on TSA checkpoint procedures which have not changed- as some have assumed- and to provide a refresher on TSA procedures.

Mr. Mocek was charged by the Albuquerque Police Department with trespassing, disorderly conduct, refusing to obey an officer, and concealing identity. He was acquitted. In so far as Mr. Mocek wants to fly in the future, like other passengers, he will still need to produce ID or work cooperatively with TSOs to confirm his identity.

TSA verification processes must proceed quickly and without interference. Any passenger holding a camera in the face of TSOs as they try verify identification should not be surprised if asked to step aside so that other passengers in line can be processed expeditiously without further disruption.

TSA's goal is to ensure that all passengers who fly are checked against government watchlists. This can be achieved only if a passenger's identity is confirmed at the checkpoint. ***

And the original writing on their site more or less states what I was getting to. For all I know "Revelarts" purchased the ticket, but Alfred AlQaeda has showed up for the flight.

A recent case - New Mexico v. Phillip Mocek - is making the news recently. The case stemmed from Mr. Mocek’s failure to cooperate with the instructions of Albuquerque police officers at the Albuquerque International Sunport Airport after interactions he had with TSA transportation security officers.

Mr. Mocek had a boarding pass, but would not produce ID when asked. As I've said before here on the blog, if you don’t have an ID, TSA will work with you to verify you are who you say you are. On the other hand, if you refuse to provide information, you will not be permitted to fly. This process had begun with Mr. Mocek, but was not completed. Without an ID that matches the individual holding the boarding pass, we can’t be sure the passenger has cleared government watchlists.

As far as photography, as I stated in a previous post, TSA does not prohibit photography at checkpoints as long as there is no interference with the screening process. As TSOs were talking to Mr. Mocek to verify his identity, he was holding a camera up to film them and appeared to be trying to film sensitive security information related to TSA standard operating procedures on ID verification. Such behavior interferes with the ordinary course of business at the checkpoint and may well delay other passengers.

http://blog.tsa.gov/2011/01/new-mexico-v-phillip-mocek-quick.html

revelarts

08-03-2012, 08:53 PM

jimnyc

08-03-2012, 09:03 PM

Is this Jim ?
the same guy who always says stuff LIKE
"well it's the Law and if they dont like the law, they can take it to court." well this guy took it to court and won.
And the TSA is basically saying it's NOT going to obey the court ruling.

Is the TSA HIGHER than the courts Jim?

That's my question. Don't give me this "but terrorist might.." Are terrorist above the courts?
Is the TSA edict above the Court ruling?
yes or no?

So the courts ruled in this guys favor, I acknowledged that. But every airport in the nation requires photo ID to go along with a boarding pass in order to fly. The airline can deny you entry to the plane without the ID, as per their terms of the contract. Most airports are privately owned, and if they want you to have ID in order to go past a security checkpoint, they can. Law won't dictate either of these scenarios for you to present ID. And neither should get a flyer arrested. BUT, they can just deny you the ability to fly on their airline or the ability to go past a certain point in their airport.

One court siding with an individual on one case doesn't make law. It simply meant that he was acquitted of the charges. Which is correct, it shouldn't be an arrestable offense for failing to produce the ID. They made the right call as far as I can see. But that doesn't do anything to take away the right of an airline or airport to ask for the ID for verification, and to deny them services if they don't. They apparently just can't arrest them.

Thinking that somehow it's now legal to go to an airport and hop on a plane without ever showing ID is absolutely wrong. I hope you see the difference.

jimnyc

08-03-2012, 09:04 PM

And the TSA is basically saying it's NOT going to obey the court ruling.

Post the entire ruling here, Rev, and show me where this case has somehow now made it unlawful for them to ask for ID in order for a passenger to board a flight.

logroller

08-03-2012, 10:15 PM

jimnyc

08-03-2012, 10:29 PM

The ID requirement to board an aircraft I have no problem with; same as requiring ID to go into a bar IMO.
Similarly, at a border checkpoint, (accent on border), I don't have a problem with ID either; so long as the person has just came across the border-- that is a reason to suspect the person may be here illegally or illegally importing etc. However, just driving down the road is not a reasonable suspicion. I don't care if it's a road around the border, that's not any more suspicious than driving near a bar is reason to suspect drinking and driving.

I agree. And I don't think the TSA should have carte blanche all over the airport to harass passengers. There should be a specific location, whether that be security or near boarding, but right now every flight in America requires picture ID and I'm glad for that. They pre-check all passengers against the various lists, and that process would be wasted if just anyone could board with the pass.

red state

08-04-2012, 12:21 AM

Sure , remember the Gestapo surely held it was illegal to question thier authority too. So illegal in fact they often shot people on the spot for doing so or even just for the hell of it.. Lets make LEO's so Godlike that not only can we never record or question their constitutional abuses but perhaps we have to fall down and bow to them too whenever they approach us also! Maybe even kiss their damn feet too! Ridiculously blind and silly wanting to give them even more power to abuse with IMO. Some people like to blend their socialism with fascism in order to get their daily does of shitpie to eat and such appeasors betray our nation on a daily basis, America has plenty of such appeasors. . People that are ever so quick to replace their rights as free citizens in order to increase police authority are surely favoring facism and more Gestapo like power authority over our Constitution IMHO.-Tyr

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dang it, Tyr! You just had to go and bring up the Gestapo bit!!! I just got in from the movies an hour or so ago, was gonna simply check my messages, shut down and hit the hay BUT then I see this thread and what you wrote above!!!! WARNING: Another long reply BUT it is a topic that I am very passionate about. I'm going to have to side with Revelarts on much of this...although my opinions is biased after YEARS of dealing with checkpoints, road blocks and cops in general. I would like to say for argument sake that there are laws in rougher cities that require the under aged to be at the house during late hours. Some even require a parent, guardian or adult accompany minors at all times within malls. This would be a reasonable request for I.D. but I still don't like it because it can also be abused.

There's always two sides to every story and there are a multitude of jerks who give cops a hard time BUT I also know that most cops are jerks and half of them don't even believe in our Constitution. That sounds awful, yet it is so very true if you consider the number of cops (at least 50%) who don't believe that a citizen should even have a gun. Of course a reason for this high percentage could be due to high numbers of cops in cities. Cities are often liberal cities and I'm sure the liberalism rubs off OR the liberals are making sure that they hire liberal minded cops). I'm certain these checkpoint cops that beat the pastor are probably not liberal but they certainly weren't honorable either (in my opinion).

Did anyone catch the video of the pastor who was WITHIN the US coming from CA to AZ? He was beaten by an officer Diaz & co. but he won his case. I hope he got several million dollars out of that. You know, our settling may be the problem because we may need to set the sum high so that a State, City or Precinct has to take it to the Supreme Court out of lack of the amount that the citizen is suing for. The abuse is so obvious, from stories we here to personal accounts. Can anyone recall Katrina...that was a terrible time in America and I ain't talkin' 'bout no blame storm either!

I was taught to respect cops all my life but in most cases, I've found very little to respect. I've learned more about cops lately and know that local cops are this way because my wife's nephew is a cop. Most cops are either those who had their lunch taken from them in school or have an adrenaline addiction (my wife's nephew falls in this category). I'm thankful that he's an Iraq vet who hunts and knows the importance of keeping his oath to the Constitution but he does have a 'thing' for danger. There are a few who do not fall into either group but they are so small that I wouldn't even want to put a percentage to their numbers. They are the sensible Constitutionalists who use common sense, fairness and justice (not regulations) and just as our Supreme Court legislates from the bench, the judge from the street. Whatever the case, it is my experience that most cops (as with the check guards who beat the pastor) are simply an extension of our BULLY gov. who will do what they will, lie as need be and hide behind and shame the badge that they are supposed to represent. Bottom line, and I know I'm not alone in this, but I've NEVER had a cop 'help' me...much less protect and serve. I can "protect" myself...they actually just get in the way and complicate things for when we must protect ourselves. They have helped me lighten my wallet but that's about it. I'd be interested to hear stories of members here where a cop helped them or gave them a hard time. I can't count the times that I've seen cops pass a car in need of assistance or go on their merry way when a dangerous item was obstructing the hwy. And how about all the times we've seen them break the very laws that they ticket us for just to get a doughnut...forget about it!!! My favorite Revelart video was the one where the guy videoed a cop NOT wearing his seat belt. I was shocked but not surprised that the egg-head cop wrote the guy a ticket. I was hope the cop would have honorably written himself a ticket but the seat belt law apparently does not apply to him. That my friend was your typical cop (in my opinion). It truly is frightening at how ignorant and in-compliant many cops are when concerning law. It is also amazing at how foolish those who 'test' cops can be. The guy who LEGALLY had an open carry sidearm should have NEVER approached a cop while he was issuing a ticket.

Whether it is border guards, local police or State Police, Big Brother has used them all to abuse citizens. One of the most powerful branches of law is the Game and Fish Commission and Big Bro really loves for this branch to do its dirty work. Same with the ATF and other useless / abusive branches. The Game and Fish Dept have been used in such a subtle way over the years but they have shown a very ugly head since Katrina and as recently publicized in the guitar raids. For years the Game and Fish Dept. have used their authority in a way that was never meant to be used. They are for the conservation of wildlife & safety but it seems that we now need a branch of gov. to protect us from them. One such not-so-subtle a way that the Game and Fish Dept. was used in attacking the Constitution was made a few years ago, when cops used the Fish and Game to search freezers and homes without a warrant. The Game and Fish could actually do this back then. As you may have guessed, their excuse in illegally searching these folks were to protect wildlife. I'm so glad they changed that law but MUCH still needs to be done because they can still search your vehicle without a warrant to make sure you don't have a loaded rifle during deer season. This is also to protect wildlife as spot-lighters and/or daytime "road" hunters have taken game unethically. Does "one bad apple ruining the entire barrel" come to mind? This could also be applied to airport security. It simply isn't RIGHT. By the way, one of the worst poachers that I've EVER had the displeasure of knowing was a Game and Fish Officer. He committed many acts that a sportsman/hunter could NEVER do. He did this on public and PRIVATE land (citizen's private land). He's now a decorated officer and has changed his ways (I think) BUT he has a lot of payback in my opinion...especially the folks he harassed/HUNTED just because they were hunting public lands that he thought he owned.

Let's not forget, about a year ago the Game and Fish abused their power playing the part of BULLY by raiding a guitar factory near my area. I can not stand to see our well intended branches of gov. being used for things other than what they were founded for. Gibson guitars were raided because of rumors that they were using endangered wood...not from our nation but from a nation that is willing to sell THEIR wood. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/feds-raid-guitar-maker%E2%80%A6looking-for-illegal-wood/ Are our Game & Fish now the park rangers for the world?! I suppose they are now that we have a WORLD citizen sitting as president and commandor in chief. This isn't a freak occurance either...that company has been harassed for the past several years. If anyone can pin-point where and how they are in the wrong, I'd certainly appreciate it but until that happens, I'm gonna side with them.

Another evil of the Game and Fish, as briefly mentioned in my opening statement, is that they have allowed themselves to be used toward gun control. In some States (even open / freely carry States), there are laws that would prevent you from having a loaded rifle, shotgun or muzzleloader during deer season. Because of many hunters unethically shooting deer from the road (often times blocking roads, cutting fences and destroying privately owned roads), Big Bro saw a way to get some anti gun laws in place. I believe this law effects riflemen and shotgunners more than hand gun owners (and it may not effect hand guns at all) but it should not be a law for several good reasons. One reason, in particular, is that most folks do not own a hand gun and a rifle or shotgun is their only means of self defense. To ticket an individual or confiscate someone for having a loaded gun of any kind simply because of a few bad apples who do WRONG is a dangerous avenue by which we lose ground in conserving our right to own, carry and USE a firearm of any kind. Another reason of this being flat out WRONG is because the Constitution states that it's WRONG. I've even heard officers say that its a good law because it makes it easier for Game and Fish and other officers to stop the unethical practice of hunting from the public roads and highways, I'd much rather bad guys get away with killing a deer here and there before GOOD GUYS suffer at the hand of an unjust law that violates the Constitution. Let those "officers" get off their rumps and earn their pay. It gripes me so much to see several cop cars (as with the way Collierville police) line up on one stretch just to catch someone breaking their speed traps. Of all the crime going on, they sit there getting paid while running the AC!!!

If illegal searches and confiscations can happen in a RED STATEs, from AZ or SC, then we are in big trouble because it is like when I was young and spending the night at my grandfathers house. There were many cousins and little room in the few beds. Before long, the gradual shifting of each cousin would eventually find someone hitting the floor! We can not continue to give ground to our enemy. Look at Katrina where gov officials abused their power to the point that even Stalin would be proud. They forced people from their property, searched vehicles without any cause (other than to confiscate weapons...LEGAL weapons). Heads should have rolled because of this and if BUSH had even an ounce of true conservatism, he would have stood up to the liberals who botched the relief efforts of Katrina. Again, and I'm not picking on the Fish and Game Dept. but much of the Constitutional violations were committed at the hand of the Fish and Game commission. It was out of State army reserves that REFUSED to go against the Constitution. During the Gulf Oil crisis, the Game and Fish were again called in to abuse power! More and more liberals have been placed in high positions of power within our Federal parks and wildlife 'management'. And let's not forget one of the bluest States in Dixie (Florida). they have some of the strangest and most controlling policies around but even they know what happened in Katrina was WRONG. Beware guys...the left are to our North and to our shores and seem to be working their way to the middle (heart).

I know this isn't a thread on GUN CONTROL but it is a thread on the abuse that we suffer from those who ignore and regard the Constitution as some flawed paper. Having said this, they have, in effect WON and We The People have lost. We've lost the ability to travel FREELY and we have lost, for all practical purposes, our 2nd Amendment right through mountains of regulations and questionable legislation. Bills such as: Code of Federal Regulations
Title 18 - Part I - Chapter 44 - § 926a has, effectively stamped out the 2nd Amendment. Such laws, if obeyed, leave the citizen defenseless to the point that they may as well not have a firearm with them at all and can be used at will and if pressed, regardless of your "carry permit" or "conceal permit". Until recently and not in every State, cops have even been subjected to this idiotic law. It is illegal search and seizures and "check points" that have just about imprisoned every one of us. I literally fear abusive / intrusive cops 98% more than I'd EVER fear a terrorist. I know we all can't share those feelings because of the atrocious attacks of 911.

If you know, befriend or have a family member in the service or within any law enforcement, I encourage you to tune them in to Oath Keepers. That is a start that may put a STOP to the abuse or at least prevent another violation of our Constitution as experienced during Katrina. How anyone with any intellect or sanity can make an argument that we CAN"T possible lose our rights or witness the destruction of our Nation (as a free and recognizable State) is beyond me. It has happened before and it can happen again. Just see what happens while you sleep and awaken to find that they have TOTAL control.

red state

08-04-2012, 12:49 AM

16 2Amenders refuse to show I.D.

Was that restuarant scene a montly ordeal?!

If that restaurant had no gun restrictions and someone merely called the cops cuz they didn't like the 2nd Amendment...this is a none issue BUT, if the cops showed up to harrass these individuals MONTLY just to give them a hard time, it is a VERY big issue and the entire county or town should have their @$$ in a sling. t

They probably should provide Id however and then say "good by now....officers". I will always provide I.D. The cop just better damn well give it back. HA! That's about as far as I cooperate though. It is simply courteous to provide I.D. For all a cop knows, you may be drinking under age in a bar or something. Look at Dick Clark, I bet he could have been I.D.ed till he was 50. HA!!!!

I will say, whether I believed in gun laws or not, if I were the store's owner, I'd tell the cops that it was a misunderstanding cuz that kind of scene is not good for business...return business for ALL and those who pulled in and saw all the cop cars. HA! When I see a place with an armed cop at the door, I turn right back around. HA!!! What is sad in this case was that the store owner seemed perfectly fine with the "2nd Amenders" and harassment from some liberal who was probably at the next table and the cops who don't like anyone else having "toys". Pathetic!

The manager was giving the staff a pep talk?! WOW! Forget Chick-Fil-A....I wanna know where that Shake n Bake is so I can send some business his way.