So, it was only Aisha?

[jimnyc]

And others will simply claim that "times are different" and that 9yrs old in the time of Muhammed was normal. Ok, well what about in today's times?


According to recently released statistics, in the past few weeks over 75 female children under 10 were forced to marry much older men. In 3929 cases, bride and groom were both under 14.

In a discussion of the issue organised by the Khabar Online news website, conservative law-maker and spokesperson for the Majles committee Mohammad Ali Isfenani said: "Before the revolution girls under 16 were not allowed to marry.

Parents determined to get around the law would often tamper with their daughter's birth certificate. Under the previous constitution, people were legally regarded as adults when they were 18. After the revolution the age at which children were regarded as going through puberty was lowered to 9 for girls and 15 for boys.

" He added: "As some people may not comply with our current Islamic legal system, we must regard 9 as being the appropriate age for a girl to have reached puberty and qualified to get married. To do otherwise would be to contradict and challenge Islamic Sharia law."

http://www.mohabatnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4923:iran-seeks-to-legalise-marriage-for-girls-under-10&catid=35:inside-iran&Itemid=278

[ConHog]

And others will simply claim that "times are different" and that 9yrs old in the time of Muhammed was normal. Ok, well what about in today's times?



http://www.mohabatnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4923:iran-seeks-to-legalise-marriage-for-girls-under-10&catid=35:inside-iran&Itemid=278

" He added: "As some people may not comply with our current Islamic legal system, we must regard 9 as being the appropriate age for a girl to have reached puberty and qualified to get married. To do otherwise would be to contradict and challenge Islamic Sharia law."


I will never understand the mentality of "well people are breaking the current law anyway, so let's change it to reflect what some people want" in this particular case we are talking about marrying children, wrong is wrong whether people are doing it regardless of the law or not. Here's an idea , enforce the law.

[jimnyc]

" He added: "As some people may not comply with our current Islamic legal system, we must regard 9 as being the appropriate age for a girl to have reached puberty and qualified to get married. To do otherwise would be to contradict and challenge Islamic Sharia law."


I will never understand the mentality of "well people are breaking the current law anyway, so let's change it to reflect what some people want" in this particular case we are talking about marrying children, wrong is wrong whether people are doing it regardless of the law or not. Here's an idea , enforce the law.

That's what kills me. The excuse always given for Muhammed marrying and having sex with a 9yr old is that the times were different back then. Well, hear you have it, in some places they still think 9yrs old is old enough to consent to both, which is horseshit. It was wrong back then and it's still wrong today.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's what kills me. The excuse always given for Muhammed marrying and having sex with a 9yr old is that the times were different back then. Well, hear you have it, in some places they still think 9yrs old is old enough to consent to both, which is horseshit. It was wrong back then and it's still wrong today.

Jim , its like all things concerning Islam they depend on the ignorance of the average American citizen on the subject of Islam! Then they depend on lies, half lies and GD lies AND they depend on foolish appeasors here that talk mostly out of their asses about the religion. Never even studying Sharia law and ALMOST always ignoring the barbaric acts that are so common in that religion. Such appeasors are every bit as bad as those they defend IMHO.-Tyr

[gabosaurus]

You should read into the story. It is quite different than what you think.

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

I often wonder how Christians can criticize other religions when The Bible includes instances of genocide, infanticide, pedophilia and incestuous unions.

[jimnyc]

You should read into the story. It is quite different than what you think.

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

I often wonder how Christians can criticize other religions when The Bible includes instances of genocide, infanticide, pedophilia and incestuous unions.

Only if you retell history. Even Jafar acknowledged her age, just defended it as normal for that era. Regardless, some places have either remained the same, or are going backwards in time. Either way, wrong is wrong is wrong. And disgusting that it's happening today.

[gabosaurus]

So you are saying that pedophilia doesn't exist in the U.S?
Keep in mind that some religions in the U.S. don't seem to consider pedophilia to be a problem.

[jimnyc]

So you are saying that pedophilia doesn't exist in the U.S?
Keep in mind that some religions in the U.S. don't seem to consider pedophilia to be a problem.

Yep, just not considered normal and not legal.

[gabosaurus]

Yep, just not considered normal and not legal.

Don't know enough about the culture to know if it was or not.

[ConHog]

You should read into the story. It is quite different than what you think.

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

I often wonder how Christians can criticize other religions when The Bible includes instances of genocide, infanticide, pedophilia and incestuous unions.

Don't lump all Christians together. Some of us aren't hypocritical. We acknowledge some of the more sordid details of the Bible.


However, the old Testament is an ancient historical piece and no Christian today behaves in that manner. Okay, I should amend that and state that only a few nuts who claim they are Christians are running around marrying children, or killing people.

You can't point to a single major Christian leader stating that "well fucking kids is illegal, but damn people are doing it anyway, so we should change the law."

[ConHog]

Don't know enough about the culture to know if it was or not.

Pedophilia is illegal in EVERY jurisdiction in the US, regardless of culture. Sure age limits vary, but none allow for 9 year olds.

[jafar00]

As some people may not comply with our current Islamic legal system, we must regard 9 as being the appropriate age for a girl to have reached puberty and qualified to get married. To do otherwise would be to contradict and challenge Islamic Sharia law.

And you wonder why we disagree with Shia'ism?

There isn't a legal age mentioned in Sharia. Only the common custom of marrying at puberty that was common in many cultures until recently.

[Kathianne]

So you are saying that pedophilia doesn't exist in the U.S?
Keep in mind that some religions in the U.S. don't seem to consider pedophilia to be a problem.

No one claimed there aren't pedophiles, indeed some are even in jail. Some released are on sex offenders list.

What religions would those be, Gabby?

[jimnyc]

And you wonder why we disagree with Shia'ism?

There isn't a legal age mentioned in Sharia. Only the common custom of marrying at puberty that was common in many cultures until recently.

I'm glad you distance yourself from all of this crap, but it still exists and is still a problem in many Islamic regions of the world.

[ConHog]

And you wonder why we disagree with Shia'ism?

There isn't a legal age mentioned in Sharia. Only the common custom of marrying at puberty that was common in many cultures until recently.

What a load of crap jafar, 9 has NEVER been considered the age of puberty in ANY culture.

[jafar00]

What a load of crap jafar, 9 has NEVER been considered the age of puberty in ANY culture.

There are a number of reports that at the time of the consumation of the marriage, Aicha had breasts. That's a good a sign of puberty as any.

BTW, King Edward the 1st married a 9 year old bride too.

In 1254, Edward travelled to Spain for an arranged marriage at the age of 15 to 9-year-old Eleanor of Castile. (http://www.royal.gov.uk/historyofthemonarchy/kingsandqueensofengland/theplantagenets/edwardilongshanks.aspx)

Richard II went even further. Less than 7 years old!

Isabelle of France (1389-1409), oldest daughter of (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html)King Charles VI (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/charlesVI.html), was not quite seven years old when she married Richard II (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html)

How come British royalty never gets the same condemnation. Because it was the custom of the time as I have been saying all along.

Seriously, that horse is dead. Quit flogging it.

[revelarts]

You should read into the story. It is quite different than what you think.

http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm

I often wonder how Christians can criticize other religions when The Bible includes instances of genocide, infanticide, pedophilia and incestuous unions.

Gab please keep this in mind.
Not everything that happens the Bible is Condoned or Promoted by God.

I've heard the point you've made several times but it's like saying:
"If you like watching the TV show "Law & Order" you shouldn't complain about people rooting for the bad guys in the the "Godfather". Law & Order includes instances of murder, rape, theft and drug dealing too."

here's the thing, In Law & Order they try to get the Bad guys.

And as far as pedophilia in the Bible goes, I'm scratching my head to think of an instance of that.
And incest is forbidden from the time of Moses forward.


Concerning Islam, It really seems that the major goal of Islam is to get everyone in the world under Sharia law. (Not necessarily by violent means.) Some of the Top Islamic scholars indicate this. And it seems that men marring 9 year old girls is not against Sharia. Mohamed did it, how could it be?

It's a horrible situation when a religion makes room for evil behavior. And Frankly the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have much room to condemn Islam without cleaning out its own pedophile ring. they have obstructed justice around the world and protected and moved pedophiles to new feeding grounds. It's evil and obviously completely against Christian teachings on a dozen fronts. Jesus said a heavy stone should be put around your neck and you should be tossed in the sea if you hurt children.

I'm not sure how that turns into an RC policy of Covering for boy raping Priest and the churches rep.
Islam is suppose to believe in Jesus as well but Mohamed supposedly trumps him, so there ya go, religious justification for raping lil girls.

the difference in religions here is that one is following it's teaching the other is not.

[revelarts]

There are a number of reports that at the time of the consumation of the marriage, Aicha had breasts. That's a good a sign of puberty as any.

BTW, King Edward the 1st married a 9 year old bride too.

In 1254, Edward travelled to Spain for an arranged marriage at the age of 15 to 9-year-old Eleanor of Castile. (http://www.royal.gov.uk/historyofthemonarchy/kingsandqueensofengland/theplantagenets/edwardilongshanks.aspx)

Richard II went even further. Less than 7 years old!

Isabelle of France (1389-1409), oldest daughter of (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html)King Charles VI (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/charlesVI.html), was not quite seven years old when she married Richard II (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html)

How come British royalty never gets the same condemnation. Because it was the custom of the time as I have been saying all along.

Seriously, that horse is dead. Quit flogging it.

Many European Royals were sick freaks and it was wrong for them as well.
Will you say it was wrong for Mohamed?

[jafar00]

Many European Royals were sick freaks and it was wrong for them as well.
Will you say it was wrong for Mohamed?

No. Because at the time it was not wrong. Do yourself a favour and engage in a little history research into marriage customs of the past. You may be surprised and even shocked.

[revelarts]

No. Because at the time it was not wrong. Do yourself a favour and engage in a little history research into marriage customs of the past. You may be surprised and even shocked.

Does Sharia say it's Wrong today?

[revelarts]

No. Because at the time it was not wrong. Do yourself a favour and engage in a little history research into marriage customs of the past. You may be surprised and even shocked.

Some marriage customs of the ancient Romans and others were horrific, some pagan cultures around the world have many horrible marriage practices and treatment of woman and children in general. Many of these were not changed until God reformed them via the introduction of Christianity into those cultures.

[jimnyc]

There are a number of reports that at the time of the consumation of the marriage, Aicha had breasts. That's a good a sign of puberty as any.

BTW, King Edward the 1st married a 9 year old bride too.

In 1254, Edward travelled to Spain for an arranged marriage at the age of 15 to 9-year-old Eleanor of Castile. (http://www.royal.gov.uk/historyofthemonarchy/kingsandqueensofengland/theplantagenets/edwardilongshanks.aspx)

Richard II went even further. Less than 7 years old!

Isabelle of France (1389-1409), oldest daughter of (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html)King Charles VI (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/charlesVI.html), was not quite seven years old when she married Richard II (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html)

How come British royalty never gets the same condemnation. Because it was the custom of the time as I have been saying all along.

Seriously, that horse is dead. Quit flogging it.

Yes, it was just as disgusting for King Edward to violate a child as well, absolutely no different. Sick is sick is sick.

Are they still advocating and allowing such filth today over there, like some places in Islam?

[jimnyc]

Many European Royals were sick freaks and it was wrong for them as well.
Will you say it was wrong for Mohamed?


No. Because at the time it was not wrong. Do yourself a favour and engage in a little history research into marriage customs of the past. You may be surprised and even shocked.

Like I said, always an excuse.

[jafar00]

Does Sharia say it's Wrong today?

There is no age of consent in Sharia law. In that case you follow the law of where you reside.


Yes, it was just as disgusting for King Edward to violate a child as well, absolutely no different. Sick is sick is sick.

Are they still advocating and allowing such filth today over there, like some places in Islam?

So why is Mohamed (saw) constantly attacked for it, but all the kings and queens and nobles and a million peasants left alone, never to be criticised?

Customs come and go. If you look back, the age of consent was much younger. Even as young as 10y/o even in some states of the USA. You have to sane reason to criticise Mohamed(saw) yet ignore millions of others who were simply doing what was considered completely normal at the time.

[Kathianne]

There is no age of consent in Sharia law. In that case you follow the law of where you reside.



So why is Mohamed (saw) constantly attacked for it, but all the kings and queens and nobles and a million peasants left alone, never to be criticised?

Customs come and go. If you look back, the age of consent was much younger. Even as young as 10y/o even in some states of the USA. You have to sane reason to criticise Mohamed(saw) yet ignore millions of others who were simply doing what was considered completely normal at the time.

Excuse me, but you went too far. Whether Muslim or Christian or polytheistic, those that could afford 'young virgins' were never in the millions. Get real.

[jimnyc]

So why is Mohamed (saw) constantly attacked for it, but all the kings and queens and nobles and a million peasants left alone, never to be criticised?

Customs come and go. If you look back, the age of consent was much younger. Even as young as 10y/o even in some states of the USA. You have to sane reason to criticise Mohamed(saw) yet ignore millions of others who were simply doing what was considered completely normal at the time.

Look around the forum on subjects pertaining to pedophilia and underage sex. The majority of topics revolve around current American cases and I think every single member that posts is against such actions. If I see a thread about a king from long ago who has done so, I'll say the same. If I find out it happened in Delaware years and years ago, I'll say the same. I'm not ignoring others, as my belief on the subject to ALL you refer to is the same. Am I more vocal at this moment about the subject and Islam? Yes. That much I'll grant you, but it's been on my mind since I found the article coming out of Iran, so I spoke up about what I read and it brought about other discussion.

But you must admit, the more famous the person involved, the more it'll tend to get discussed. I'd say Muhammed is rather famous, and fair discussion based on the facts.

[gabosaurus]

No. Because at the time it was not wrong. Do yourself a favour and engage in a little history research into marriage customs of the past. You may be surprised and even shocked.

Too many people try to transpose past standards into today's society.

Animal sacrifice used to be very common in the past. How often do we see animal sacrifices now?
Menstruating women used to be consider "unclean" are forced to avoid the rest of society.
A lot of rulers used to have harems. Many of the "brides" were quite young.

I sometimes wish Samson could step into today's society and slay a thousand fools with the jawbone of a Republican. :cool:

[Trigg]

There are a number of reports that at the time of the consumation of the marriage, Aicha had breasts. That's a good a sign of puberty as any.

BTW, King Edward the 1st married a 9 year old bride too.

In 1254, Edward travelled to Spain for an arranged marriage at the age of 15 to 9-year-old Eleanor of Castile. (http://www.royal.gov.uk/historyofthemonarchy/kingsandqueensofengland/theplantagenets/edwardilongshanks.aspx)

Richard II went even further. Less than 7 years old!

Isabelle of France (1389-1409), oldest daughter of (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html)King Charles VI (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/charlesVI.html), was not quite seven years old when she married Richard II (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html)

How come British royalty never gets the same condemnation. Because it was the custom of the time as I have been saying all along.

Seriously, that horse is dead. Quit flogging it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_of_Castile

King Edwards wife, according to this article, was born in 1241 and married in 1254 making her 13 while not exactly old it isn't 9 either.

AS far as Isabelle of France you forgot this little tidbit


Isabelle of France (1389-1409), oldest daughter of King Charles VI (http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/charlesVI.html), was not quite seven years old when she married Richard II as his second wife in 1396. He seems to have been very kind to her. In the Middle Ages princely and aristocratic marriages were often contracted on behalf of young children for reasons of diplomacy or for other material advantages. Canon law, however, decreed that such marriages should not be consummated until both parties were of age, at least twelve for a girl and fourteen for a boy.

http://www.history.ac.uk/richardII/isabelle.html

so apparently cannon law prevented the marriage from being consummated until the girl was of age.

[jimnyc]

Too many people try to transpose past standards into today's society.

Animal sacrifice used to be very common in the past. How often do we see animal sacrifices now?
Menstruating women used to be consider "unclean" are forced to avoid the rest of society.
A lot of rulers used to have harems. Many of the "brides" were quite young.

I sometimes wish Samson could step into today's society and slay a thousand fools with the jawbone of a Republican. :cool:

You said it, so don't yell at me for finding something else to bring up about Islam.... Women menstruating is still unclean to many Muslims. Just sayin'. In some places they are forbidden from praying or touching the Quran while menstruating.

[Kathianne]

Too many people try to transpose past standards into today's society.

Animal sacrifice used to be very common in the past. How often do we see animal sacrifices now?
Menstruating women used to be consider "unclean" are forced to avoid the rest of society.
A lot of rulers used to have harems. Many of the "brides" were quite young.

I sometimes wish Samson could step into today's society and slay a thousand fools with the jawbone of a Republican. :cool:

Gabby, what does this mean? Do you believe for a moment that folks in 'ancient times' hadn't ya clue to puberty? Regardless of J's posts about boobs on a 9 year old, we all are quite aware that less than 40 years ago, the onset of puberty was 12. Now it's 11. Why? Diet and perhaps more likely hormones via protein consumed.

Centuries ago? Onset would have likely been 15 or 16; like modern day countries where malnutrition is the norm.

[Kathianne]

You said it, so don't yell at me for finding something else to bring up about Islam.... Women menstruating is still unclean to many Muslims. Just sayin'. In some places they are forbidden from praying or touching the Quran while menstruating.

In fairness, also with orthodox Jews. Likely some Christians, though I'm not familiar enough with the outliers.

[Trigg]

There is no age of consent in Sharia law. In that case you follow the law of where you reside.
.

so basically you completely condone the marriage of very young girls simply because it's the law of the land. :lame2:

Forced marriage of 9 year olds and young teenage girls if WRONG, no matter what country you are in and no matter what religion.

[revelarts]

There is no age of consent in Sharia law. In that case you follow the law of where you reside.

So if a Muslum wanted to marry and have sex with a 2 year old that would be fine as long as local law allows it?

[jafar00]

But you must admit, the more famous the person involved, the more it'll tend to get discussed. I'd say Muhammed is rather famous, and fair discussion based on the facts.

The kings and queens in history are rather famous too. However their young marriages are merely mentioned as historical facts and accepted as the custom of the time period they lived in. They are not judged by the prevailing morality of the 21st century and it is unfair to do so.


I sometimes wish Samson could step into today's society and slay a thousand fools with the jawbone of a Republican. :cool:

So you approve of suicide attacks? Samson performed the 1st recorded suicide attack by bringing the temple down on top of himself and the Philistines (Palestinians).


You said it, so don't yell at me for finding something else to bring up about Islam.... Women menstruating is still unclean to many Muslims. Just sayin'. In some places they are forbidden from praying or touching the Quran while menstruating.

Is there something wrong with considering menstruating women as ritually impure? They are also excused from praying and fasting in this time too.

Before someone turns that into a women's rights thing, men also are not able to touch the Qur'aan or pray if they are bleeding too.

so basically you completely condone the marriage of very young girls simply because it's the law of the land. :lame2:

Forced marriage of 9 year olds and young teenage girls if WRONG, no matter what country you are in and no matter what religion.

Forced marriage no matter what the age is wrong and this is also backed up by the Qur'aan...

O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.(4:19)

Back to the subject of Aicha.. Is there any record where she regretted being married to the Mohamed (saw) or where she complained that she was abused or where she was forced to marry him?


So if a Muslum wanted to marry and have sex with a 2 year old that would be fine as long as local law allows it?

I personally do not agree with marriage at a young age. My own wife was 30 when I married her btw. It is important though to obey the law of wherever you reside whether you agree with it or not and if you don't you can do something to change it. Laws and customs can and do change.

As a side note, the Jewish Talmud allows for sexual relations with a 3 year old. Do you agree with that?

[Kathianne]

I'm not going on the Talmud hunt,yet.
For the time being, let's allow your assertion as fact.

You are fine with the assertion?

[revelarts]

..

I personally do not agree with marriage at a young age. My own wife was 30 when I married her btw. It is important though to obey the law of wherever you reside whether you agree with it or not and if you don't you can do something to change it. Laws and customs can and do change.

As a side note, the Jewish Talmud allows for sexual relations with a 3 year old. Do you agree with that?
I'm glad you don't agree with it but you didn't answer the question.
If the local law says 2 yrs old are OK to marry, is that Ok with Sharia?

as far as the talmud is concerned, i'm Kath, I'd like to see that, but the Talmud is not the word of God. So at the very least that portion should be ignored if not the whole Talmud thrown out.

[jafar00]

I'm glad you don't agree with it but you didn't answer the question.
If the local law says 2 yrs old are OK to marry, is that Ok with Sharia?

Since there is no legal age in Sharia (at least not that I'm aware of), the question is moot since Sharia would neither agree nor disagree.

[revelarts]

i appreciate the answer.

[jafar00]

i appreciate the answer.

Now that I think about it, there are verses from the Qur'aan concerning marriage where you cannot force a woman to marry against her will (she must say the equivalent of "I do" 3 times with God as her witness). A sheikh could formulate a ruling (a fatwa) against a marriage at such a young age since she is less than the age of decision or responsibility (which according to many other hadiths is puberty) and thus could not make such a decision for herself.

Just a thought :)

[jimnyc]

Is there something wrong with considering menstruating women as ritually impure? They are also excused from praying and fasting in this time too.

Before someone turns that into a women's rights thing, men also are not able to touch the Qur'aan or pray if they are bleeding too.

Women are excused from praying and touching the Quran, or forbidden?

I honestly do understand, but only to an extent. In this day and age, I don't think a woman having her monthly period to be unclean or impure, it's natural and more or less not a choice for a woman.

[jafar00]

Women are excused from praying and touching the Quran, or forbidden?

I honestly do understand, but only to an extent. In this day and age, I don't think a woman having her monthly period to be unclean or impure, it's natural and more or less not a choice for a woman.

Bleeding just makes you spiritually impure. Man or woman. My wife still gets her cuddle in her time of the month of course.

[jimnyc]

Bleeding just makes you spiritually impure. Man or woman. My wife still gets her cuddle in her time of the month of course.

I suppose that all makes sense.

And Jafar, with my multiple issues with the radicals within Islam, I hold no grudge towards peaceful Muslims like yourself, and my friends. You seem just as cool about answering my questions as they are. I know I can be a dick with "accusations" and the way I speak/write, but seriously, my issue is with the bad element. And I have issues with the bad element in every religion, and in every location. So I'm sorry that I was rude the way I went about my questioning. Sometimes I forget that there are actual people behind the words on the screen. So thanks for bearing with me and taking the time to answer so many questions, and remaining patient and polite throughout.

I still don't think I deserve to burn in hell though! Maybe you can put in a good word for me and maybe have someone make an exception? :coffee:

[jafar00]

I suppose that all makes sense.

And Jafar, with my multiple issues with the radicals within Islam, I hold no grudge towards peaceful Muslims like yourself, and my friends. You seem just as cool about answering my questions as they are. I know I can be a dick with "accusations" and the way I speak/write, but seriously, my issue is with the bad element. And I have issues with the bad element in every religion, and in every location. So I'm sorry that I was rude the way I went about my questioning. Sometimes I forget that there are actual people behind the words on the screen. So thanks for bearing with me and taking the time to answer so many questions, and remaining patient and polite throughout.

I still don't think I deserve to burn in hell though! Maybe you can put in a good word for me and maybe have someone make an exception? :coffee:

Thanks for the kind words. You can also be respectful :)

I guess we have something in common. Our jihad against extremists and criminals that are being used to paint an entire people in a bad light.