Mob burns man alive for burning koran -pakistan

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Mob burns mentally ill man alive for burning Holy QuranNews Comments (20)
Staff Report Thursday, 5 Jul 2012 1:30 am | Comments (20)


This is the tolerance of the RELIGION OF PEACE!-Tyr

LAHORE - A religiously-charged emotional mob late on Tuesday night burnt a mentally-challenged man to death for allegedly burning pages of the Holy Quran in Bahawalpur district.
Chani Ghotchakar Police Sub-Inspector Ghulam Farid told Pakistan Today on the phone that the man, who was mentally unstable and was only wearing a vest at the time, was seen setting fire to some pages of the holy book in the Chani Ghotchakar area.
The police was informed and the accused was taken into custody and put behind bars. Later, some locals gathered a crowd and made provocative speeches, inciting people against the “blasphemer”, the official said.
He said following the speech, a massive crowd of about 7000-8000 people besieged the police station and demanded the police handover the suspect to them. Farid said police tried its best to placate the protesters but the situation got out of hand and the enraged people barged into the police station.
They ransacked the premises, set four official vehicles on fire and injured at least eight policemen, the SI said. Another official said the mob put up roadblocks to prevent police reinforcements from reaching the area. “We were totally outnumbered. There were too many of them and they were hysterical. Eventually, they succeeded in taking him away,” he said.
The man was reportedly beaten and dragged to the spot where he is said to have desecrated the Holy Quran. The mob then poured petrol on him and set him on fire, according to witnesses. They said hundreds of people looked on as he screamed for help.
Police say they are trying to identify the victim, who was said to be mentally unstable. “The man had no idea what was going on,” said an official. “While he was in our custody, he kept laughing and chanting.” Farid said that an FIR of the incident had been registered but refused to reveal the details, saying it had been sealed.

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/07/05/news/national/man-burnt-for-burning-quran-in-bahawalpur/

[gabosaurus]

Seems almost like a lynching to me. Which, of course, is only permissible in uncivilized countries inhabited by sick, deranged people.

[jimnyc]

Mob burns mentally ill man alive for burning Holy QuranNews Comments

It wouldn't matter if he was mentally ill or not. They wanted to kill a man for simply drawing a cartoon too! In many places, a woman will be killed for dishonoring the family, as in "honor killing". Death is the answer to so many Muslims in far too many places.

[Nukeman]

Seems almost like a lynching to me. Which, of course, is only permissible in uncivilized countries inhabited by sick, deranged people.
Mind telling us when the LAST lynching took place in the US for burnign a book or for anything for that matter??:poke:

[Toro]

The religion of peace.




And burning sinners alive...

[aboutime]

The religion of peace.




And burning sinners alive...



Isn't this kind of thing similar to the OCCUPY Idiots burning the Constitution?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Isn't this kind of thing similar to the OCCUPY Idiots burning the Constitution?

Same principle applied, a rabid hatred. Occupy idiots still did not come close to the pure hatred of Islamists over any disrespect of their Koran , Muckhammed or Allah.
BOTH DO SEEM TO DEARLY HATE FREEDOM AND OUR CONSTITUTION REPRESENTS OUR FREEDOMS.-Tyr

[jafar00]

The USA is also full of asshats. Go figure

http://violentflashmobs.com/

[jimnyc]

The USA is also full of asshats. Go figure

http://violentflashmobs.com/

Yep, assault is a problem, and the more busted the better. But it takes a special kind of people to be able to burn others alive, to behead others, to stone others, to beat others as a normal part of ones daily life.

[aboutime]

The USA is also full of asshats. Go figure

http://violentflashmobs.com/


You are correct jafar00. The USA IS full of asshats. And they are all doing their best Impressions, or efforts to Copy you VERBATIM.
How does it feel to be an Emulated asshat?

[Mr. P]

The USA is also full of asshats. Go figure

http://violentflashmobs.com/

Sure, there is crime everywhere and asshats too. But not a single one of the crimes in the long list you kindly provided were committed in the name of some fictitious God. Were they?

No one, NOT ONE, of the victims on the list was set afire for burning a few pages from a book.

YOU FAIL....and so does Islam, the religion of peace, perpetrated on Dumb-mASSES.

Just sayin

[aboutime]

Sure, there is crime everywhere and asshats too. But not a single one of the crimes in the long list you kindly provided were committed in the name of some fictitious God. Were they?

No one, NOT ONE, of the victims on the list was set afire for burning a few pages from a book.

YOU FAIL....and so does Islam, the religion of peace, perpetrated on Dumb-mASSES.

Just sayin
This stuff is so much fun. What a way to spend a Hot, Friday night, talking about asshats from around the world like Achmadinnerjacket and his merry, gay, pork eatin' bunch of bikini wearin' asshat lookin' 72 year old wannabe Virgins.

[Mr. P]

This stuff is so much fun. What a way to spend a Hot, Friday night, talking about asshats from around the world like Achmadinnerjacket and his merry, gay, pork eatin' bunch of bikini wearin' asshat lookin' 72 year old wannabe Virgins.

Well, there is no Klan meeting tonight and there ain't much else ta do in south Alabama.:laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Yep, assault is a problem, and the more busted the better. But it takes a special kind of people to be able to burn others alive, to behead others, to stone others, to beat others as a normal part of ones daily life.

As a wild young man I ran with some really bad people for a while. None of them come close to even an average mad muslim defending the Koran. That kind of evil is a special category my friend! I couldnt and wouldnt do my worse enemy that way. And I am a pretty hard hombre when I get truly pissed off! No brag , just a fact..-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well, there is no Klan meeting tonight and there ain't much else ta do in south Alabama.:laugh:

Klan meetings called off nationwide. A major shortage of white sheets and its just too damn hot to be burning those damn big crosses at night!-:laugh2:--Tyr

[gabosaurus]

No one has to burn a book here in the U.S. to be hunted down and killed. You merely need to have a different skin color, religious persuasion or ideological belief. And we are to civilized to burn anyone alive. We merely shoot them.

[jafar00]

No one, NOT ONE, of the victims on the list was set afire for burning a few pages from a book.


Ok. How about being gang raped THEN burned just for fun?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

[Kathianne]

Ok. How about being gang raped THEN burned just for fun?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings

So you agree, that these groups of Islamicists aren't a bit different than criminal gangs? They are low life brutes using religion as a drug and 'enforcement' of that religion of hate as an excuse to unleash their violence? There are no 'truths' they are backing up, only excuses to harm and unleash their violence? They should be prosecuted and spend the rest of their lives in jail?

[red states rule]

No one has to burn a book here in the U.S. to be hunted down and killed. You merely need to have a different skin color, religious persuasion or ideological belief. And we are to civilized to burn anyone alive. We merely shoot them.

http://granitegrok.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/race-card-Liberal.jpeg

[jafar00]

So you agree, that these groups of Islamicists aren't a bit different than criminal gangs? They are low life brutes using religion as a drug and 'enforcement' of that religion of hate as an excuse to unleash their violence? There are no 'truths' they are backing up, only excuses to harm and unleash their violence? They should be prosecuted and spend the rest of their lives in jail?

Of course I agree with you. They are the enemy of Muslims the world over.

[jimnyc]

Of course I agree with you. They are the enemy of Muslims the world over.

Are women beaters the enemy of Muslims the world over?

[Nukeman]

No one has to burn a book here in the U.S. to be hunted down and killed. You merely need to have a different skin color, religious persuasion or ideological belief. And we are to civilized to burn anyone alive. We merely shoot them.
You're right Gabs, there is a VERY disproportionate number of black on white crimes for the sole purpose that they were white!!! You really need to research that BEFORE you try to say that "whites" are killing/hurting/raping minorities

I love how you jump on the band wagon of whites are bad in the US because of what a FEW do yet you and folks like you and Jafar give MILLIONS of Muslims a pass because "they aren't real Muslims". What the hell if they weren't "real" Muslims why are there so many of them that cloak themselves in the religious flag of Islam?:poke:

[Nukeman]

Of course I agree with you. They are the enemy of Muslims the world over.
Than why don't the non-violent ones find them, arrest them, incarcerate them, or destroy them for bastardizing the "religion of peace". Sorry if you have a gangrenous arm you cut it off BEFORE it kills the entire body, YOU DO NOT make excuses for it being that way and you sure as hell don't say "we need to understand why its infected" NO YOU CURE IT!

I think most Muslims really don't want to stop the extremist because they are doing what you secretly wish you had the balls to do themselves but are too much of cowards to just admit it!!!!!!!!!!

[gabosaurus]

You're right Gabs, there is a VERY disproportionate number of black on white crimes for the sole purpose that they were white!!! You really need to research that BEFORE you try to say that "whites" are killing/hurting/raping minorities

I love how you jump on the band wagon of whites are bad in the US because of what a FEW do yet you and folks like you and Jafar give MILLIONS of Muslims a pass because "they aren't real Muslims". What the hell if they weren't "real" Muslims why are there so many of them that cloak themselves in the religious flag of Islam?:poke:

No one hears from the "real" Muslims because they are very quiet and keep a low profile. If you are in a crowd of thousand and only a dozen act up, you tend to tend the entire crowd by that small minority.

There is a lot more black on black crime then there is black on white or white on black crime. But no one points that out because they tend not to care.
There remains abundance of bitter black and white groups. The blacks are bitter because they believe there is still racism. The whites are bitter because they still view blacks (and all minorities) as second class citizens.
There are still hate grounds on both sides. They spend a lot of time instigating on behalf of their beliefs.
Stuck in the middle are the larger majority of whites and minorities who get along with each other. But you don't hear about them because they are not causing trouble.

[DragonStryk72]

No one has to burn a book here in the U.S. to be hunted down and killed. You merely need to have a different skin color, religious persuasion or ideological belief. And we are to civilized to burn anyone alive. We merely shoot them.

Okay, point the last time that specific incidence you named here happened. I'm sick of this whiny crap. Why do you seem to believe that Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X both made absolutely no difference?

[jafar00]

Are women beaters the enemy of Muslims the world over?

Nobody should beat a woman. The Prophet Mohamed (saw) said, "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"
In the Qur'aan it says

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُوا النِّسَاءَ كَرْهًا ۖ وَلَا تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُوا بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلَّا أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ ۚ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَىٰ أَن تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. (4:19)

You decide.


Than why don't the non-violent ones find them, arrest them, incarcerate them, or destroy them for bastardizing the "religion of peace".

Are you encouraging vigilantism of the kind Al Qaeda are engaged in? People who are wrong need to have a proper trial in a court of law. While not all are doing it right, it is the Islamic way to give a fair trial with very strict guidelines on evidence. The Taliban are one example of what happens when people get it wrong. They are vigilantes.

That said, Muslims do often speak out. If you don't hear about it in the mainstream media it doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that we are silent.
This for example
Indonesians speak out against vigilante group, the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/indonesia/120215/islamic-defenders-front-FPI-opposition)

[aboutime]

You're right Gabs, there is a VERY disproportionate number of black on white crimes for the sole purpose that they were white!!! You really need to research that BEFORE you try to say that "whites" are killing/hurting/raping minorities

I love how you jump on the band wagon of whites are bad in the US because of what a FEW do yet you and folks like you and Jafar give MILLIONS of Muslims a pass because "they aren't real Muslims". What the hell if they weren't "real" Muslims why are there so many of them that cloak themselves in the religious flag of Islam?:poke:
Gabby is to DEBATE POLICY...what Jesse Jackson is to the NAACP. Both need to get attention, and perpetuate the long lasting divide between people in order to applaud, or pat themselves on the back for Creating Racial Hatred that everyone will like, and PROFIT from eventually.
Gabby seems confused, miserable, and frustrated. Much like everyone who voted for, or plans to vote for Obama. Rather than be honest, or truthful to others. It's easier to maintain the fear, and hatred that leads to name calling, and the Circle of Hate never ends.

[aboutime]

Nobody should beat a woman. The Prophet Mohamed (saw) said, "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"
In the Qur'aan it says

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُوا النِّسَاءَ كَرْهًا ۖ وَلَا تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُوا بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلَّا أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ ۚ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَىٰ أَن تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. (4:19)

You decide.



Are you encouraging vigilantism of the kind Al Qaeda are engaged in? People who are wrong need to have a proper trial in a court of law. While not all are doing it right, it is the Islamic way to give a fair trial with very strict guidelines on evidence. The Taliban are one example of what happens when people get it wrong. They are vigilantes.

That said, Muslims do often speak out. If you don't hear about it in the mainstream media it doesn't mean it doesn't happen or that we are silent.
This for example
Indonesians speak out against vigilante group, the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/indonesia/120215/islamic-defenders-front-FPI-opposition)




If this didn't make me feel sick in my stomach. I might be laughing.

I should now be following the words in my signature below. Abe Lincoln would assassinate himself after reading the hatred diatribe above.

[jafar00]

If this didn't make me feel sick in my stomach. I might be laughing.

I should now be following the words in my signature below. Abe Lincoln would assassinate himself after reading the hatred diatribe above.

Is there a counter argument in there somewhere or did I miss it? Resorting to insults because you have nothing?

[jimnyc]

Nobody should beat a woman. The Prophet Mohamed (saw) said, "Could any of you beat your wife as he would a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?"
In the Qur'aan it says

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُوا النِّسَاءَ كَرْهًا ۖ وَلَا تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُوا بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلَّا أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ ۚ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَىٰ أَن تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. (4:19)

You decide.



"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.034


"And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife.

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/038-qmt.php#038.044


A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/072-sbt.php#007.072.715


Muhammad's father-in-laws (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him. According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/009-smt.php#009.3506


"Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2141


"The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2142


"A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).' The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'" A Muslim man thinks his is getting a virgin, then finds out she is pregnant. Muhammad tells him to treat the woman as a sex slave and then flog her after she has delivered the child.

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2126


Sheikh Yousef al-Qaradhawi, one of the most respected Muslim clerics in the world, once made the famous (and somewhat ridiculous statement) that "It is forbidden to beat the woman, unless it is necessary." He also went on to say that "one may beat only to safeguard Islamic behavior," leaving no doubt that wife-beating is a matter of religious sanction.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1168.htm


Dr. Muzammil Saddiqi, the former president of ISNA (the Islamic Society of North America), a mainstream Muslim organization, says it is important that a wife "recognizes the authority of her husband in the house" and that he may use physical force if he is "sure it would improve the situation."

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2543/pub_detail.asp


Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Muhammad Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, the head of Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam's most prestigious institution says that "light beatings" and "punching" are part of a program to "reform the wife"

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4048.htm

Plenty more can be added, both from the Quran and the Hadith, but this should be enough to be denied for awhile. This collection was off of religionofpeace.com, but sources are included. We'll hear that the translations are wrong, obviously. :rolleyes:

[Roo]

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.034



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/038-qmt.php#038.044



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/072-sbt.php#007.072.715



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/009-smt.php#009.3506



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2141



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2142



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2126



http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1168.htm



http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2543/pub_detail.asp



http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4048.htm

Plenty more can be added, both from the Quran and the Hadith, but this should be enough to be denied for awhile. This collection was off of religionofpeace.com, but sources are included. We'll hear that the translations are wrong, obviously. :rolleyes:

Oh stop, Hadji will come for you next. ;)

[aboutime]

Is there a counter argument in there somewhere or did I miss it? Resorting to insults because you have nothing?


If what you insist above was true. Logical, Honest people would never have found a need to respond to what you call 'NOTHING'.

And no. There is no argument there. Your post simply made me sick. Just as your posts always seem to do when defending the Enemies who practice that Phony Religion of Peace.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48105731/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

By Hamid Shalizi and Amie Ferris-Rotman

updated 7/7/2012 1:55:12 PM ET 2012-07-07T17:55:12
Print Font: +-KABUL — A man Afghan officials say is a member of the Taliban shot dead a woman accused of adultery in front of a crowd near Kabul, a video obtained by Reuters showed, a sign that the austere Islamist group dictates law even near the Afghan capital.

..In the three-minute video, a turban-clad man approaches a woman kneeling in the dirt and shoots her five times at close range with an automatic rifle, to cheers of jubilation from the 150 or so men watching in a village in Parwan province.

"Allah warns us not to get close to adultery because it's the wrong way," another man says as the shooter gets closer to the woman. "It is the order of Allah that she be executed".

Provincial Governor Basir Salangi said the video, obtained on Saturday, was shot a week ago in the village of Qimchok in Shinwari district, about an hour's drive from Kabul.

Such rare public punishment was a painful reminder to Afghan authorities of the Taliban's 1996-2001 period in power, and it raised concern about the treatment of Afghan women 11 years into the NATO-led war against Taliban insurgents.

The video was revealed the same day Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was in Kabul to discuss the designation of Afghanistan as the newest U.S. "major non-NATO ally," a political statement of support for the country's long-term stability and a solidifying of close defense cooperation after American combat troops withdraw in 2014.

Story: US delivers 'powerful commitment' to Afghanistan
"When I saw this video, I closed my eyes ... The woman was not guilty; the Taliban are guilty," Salangi told Reuters.

.When the unnamed woman, most of her body tightly wrapped in a shawl, fell sideways after being shot several times in the head, the spectators chanted: "Long live the Afghan mujahideen! (Islamist fighters)", a name the Taliban use for themselves.

The Taliban could not be reached for comment.

Despite the presence of over 130,000 foreign troops and 300,000 Afghan soldiers and police, the Taliban have managed to resurge beyond their traditional bastions of the south and east, extending their reach into once more peaceful areas like Parwan.

Women's rights in jeopardy?
Afghan women have won back basic rights in education, voting and work since the Taliban, who deemed them un-Islamic for women, were toppled by U.S.-backed Afghan forces in late 2001.

But fears are rising among Afghan women, some lawmakers and rights activists that such freedoms could be traded away as the Afghan government and the United States pursue talks with the Taliban to secure a peaceful end to the war.

Violence against women has increased sharply in the past year, according to Afghanistan's independent human rights commission. Activists say there is waning interest in women's rights on the part of President Hamid Karzai's government.

"After 10 years (of foreign intervention), and only a few kilometers from Kabul... how could this happen in front of all these people?" female lawmaker Fawzia Koofi said of the public execution in Parwan.

Afghanistan schoolgirls: poisoned or mass hysteria?
"This is happening under a government that claims to have made so much progress in women's rights, claims to have changed women's lives, and this is unacceptable. It is a huge step backwards," said Koofi, a campaigner for girls' education who wants to run in the 2014 presidential election.

Salangi said two Taliban commanders were sexually involved with the woman in Parwan, either through rape or romantically, and decided to torture her and then kill her to settle a dispute between the two of them.

Afghans are 'no different from any American'
"They are outlaws, murderers, and like savages they killed the woman," he said, adding that the Taliban exerted considerable sway in his province.

Earlier this week a 30-year-old woman and two of her children were beheaded in eastern Afghanistan by a man police said was her divorced husband, the latest of a string of so-called "honor killings".

Some Afghans still refer to Taliban courts for settling disputes, viewing government bodies as corrupt or unreliable. The courts use sharia (Islamic law), which prescribes punishments such as stonings and executions.

This Islam when there are not strict laws and major overwhelming force used to prevent its Sharia law!-Tyr
Honor killings already here and unless we pass laws dealing specificly with this CRAP all the murder and brutality will increase year by year!

[aboutime]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48105731/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

By Hamid Shalizi and Amie Ferris-Rotman

updated 7/7/2012 1:55:12 PM ET 2012-07-07T17:55:12
Print Font: +-KABUL — A man Afghan officials say is a member of the Taliban shot dead a woman accused of adultery in front of a crowd near Kabul, a video obtained by Reuters showed, a sign that the austere Islamist group dictates law even near the Afghan capital.

..In the three-minute video, a turban-clad man approaches a woman kneeling in the dirt and shoots her five times at close range with an automatic rifle, to cheers of jubilation from the 150 or so men watching in a village in Parwan province.

"Allah warns us not to get close to adultery because it's the wrong way," another man says as the shooter gets closer to the woman. "It is the order of Allah that she be executed".

Provincial Governor Basir Salangi said the video, obtained on Saturday, was shot a week ago in the village of Qimchok in Shinwari district, about an hour's drive from Kabul.

Such rare public punishment was a painful reminder to Afghan authorities of the Taliban's 1996-2001 period in power, and it raised concern about the treatment of Afghan women 11 years into the NATO-led war against Taliban insurgents.

The video was revealed the same day Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was in Kabul to discuss the designation of Afghanistan as the newest U.S. "major non-NATO ally," a political statement of support for the country's long-term stability and a solidifying of close defense cooperation after American combat troops withdraw in 2014.

Story: US delivers 'powerful commitment' to Afghanistan
"When I saw this video, I closed my eyes ... The woman was not guilty; the Taliban are guilty," Salangi told Reuters.

.When the unnamed woman, most of her body tightly wrapped in a shawl, fell sideways after being shot several times in the head, the spectators chanted: "Long live the Afghan mujahideen! (Islamist fighters)", a name the Taliban use for themselves.

The Taliban could not be reached for comment.

Despite the presence of over 130,000 foreign troops and 300,000 Afghan soldiers and police, the Taliban have managed to resurge beyond their traditional bastions of the south and east, extending their reach into once more peaceful areas like Parwan.

Women's rights in jeopardy?
Afghan women have won back basic rights in education, voting and work since the Taliban, who deemed them un-Islamic for women, were toppled by U.S.-backed Afghan forces in late 2001.

But fears are rising among Afghan women, some lawmakers and rights activists that such freedoms could be traded away as the Afghan government and the United States pursue talks with the Taliban to secure a peaceful end to the war.

Violence against women has increased sharply in the past year, according to Afghanistan's independent human rights commission. Activists say there is waning interest in women's rights on the part of President Hamid Karzai's government.

"After 10 years (of foreign intervention), and only a few kilometers from Kabul... how could this happen in front of all these people?" female lawmaker Fawzia Koofi said of the public execution in Parwan.

Afghanistan schoolgirls: poisoned or mass hysteria?
"This is happening under a government that claims to have made so much progress in women's rights, claims to have changed women's lives, and this is unacceptable. It is a huge step backwards," said Koofi, a campaigner for girls' education who wants to run in the 2014 presidential election.

Salangi said two Taliban commanders were sexually involved with the woman in Parwan, either through rape or romantically, and decided to torture her and then kill her to settle a dispute between the two of them.

Afghans are 'no different from any American'
"They are outlaws, murderers, and like savages they killed the woman," he said, adding that the Taliban exerted considerable sway in his province.

Earlier this week a 30-year-old woman and two of her children were beheaded in eastern Afghanistan by a man police said was her divorced husband, the latest of a string of so-called "honor killings".

Some Afghans still refer to Taliban courts for settling disputes, viewing government bodies as corrupt or unreliable. The courts use sharia (Islamic law), which prescribes punishments such as stonings and executions.

This Islam when there are not strict laws and major overwhelming force used to prevent its Sharia law!-Tyr
Honor killings already here and unless we pass laws dealing specificly with this CRAP all the murder and brutality will increase year by year!


And, the So-called Religion of Peace keeps marchin' on.
Those Honor Laws are like Terrorist Camp Tryouts.
Issue the TEST, Suicide Terrorist Bombers EAR PLUGS, so they can't hurt their hearing when the BOMB goes off. And they should handcuff themselves to members of their family...A terrorist family should always STICK TOGETHER.

[jafar00]

Plenty more can be added, both from the Quran and the Hadith, but this should be enough to be denied for awhile. This collection was off of religionofpeace.com, but sources are included. We'll hear that the translations are wrong, obviously. :rolleyes:

Verse 34 or Surat An Nisa is often used and twisted by those with an anti islamic agenda without understanding the meaning of the words in Arabic and usually certain translations are ignored.

For example, the word Idhribunna which is often translated as "beat" is derived from the root daraba which can mean to "go abroad", "to leave" or to "make an example of" depending on the context. It can also mean to hit lightly or tap.

Some translations use the word correctly as an arab would understand it such as Ahmed Ali's interpretation

Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing). If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great.

This is also supported by another verse from the same surah.


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَرِثُوا النِّسَاءَ كَرْهًا ۖ وَلَا تَعْضُلُوهُنَّ لِتَذْهَبُوا بِبَعْضِ مَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ إِلَّا أَن يَأْتِينَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ ۚ وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ فَإِن كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَىٰ أَن تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئًا وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْرًا كَثِيرًا
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

There are also other verses that contain similar instructions so the instruction to "beat" as is interpreted by your hate filled website is not backed up by a mountain of other evidence.

Hadiths are another matter entirely. The science of Hadith can be a minefield for those without the proper training to distinguish strong from weak or those which have little chance of being a true representation of what was said. The lack of context, cherrypicked quotes and use of questionable translations by sites like religionofpeace.com in order to further an agenda is enough to discount that source as a place of scholarly learning in much the same way as I would dismiss Al Qaeda or the Taliban who similarly twist scripture for their own benefit.

Look at this one for example from the book of marriage in Abu Dawood's hadith collection. Note the chain of narration mentioning Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah who is considered a trustworthy source.


Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.

Which is right and which is wrong?

The above hadith has a verifiable narrator and is in keeping with instructions in the Prophet Mohamed's (saw) last sermon before his death (and with aforementioned verses of the Qur'aan).



O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under a trust from God and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers.
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/523/

I know it may be hard for you to accept what I have said, but this is what I have been taught about my religion. This other stuff that your hate sites spew and that of Taliban and Al Qaeda is not my religion.


Oh stop, Hadji will come for you next. ;)

Who is Hadji?

[jimnyc]

There are also other verses that contain similar instructions so the instruction to "beat" as is interpreted by your hate filled website is not backed up by a mountain of other evidence.

This other stuff that your hate sites spew and that of Taliban and Al Qaeda is not my religion.

You think a website that tries to bridge a relationship between Jewish people and Muslims is "hate filled"? Because that's the sources for everything that was posted - other than the stuff spewed by the Muslim leaders that you ignored. And the crap they spoke of was also sourced from elsewhere. Are those leaders that spoke not Muslims? If they are reading and teaching incorrectly, how did they get to be in high positions? How come no one is correcting them?

[jafar00]

This Islam when there are not strict laws and major overwhelming force used to prevent its Sharia law!-Tyr
Honor killings already here and unless we pass laws dealing specificly with this CRAP all the murder and brutality will increase year by year!

Obviously you guys did a great job of winning against the Taliban </sarcasm>

If that is winning, I would hate to see you losing the war.

In any case, the Taliban are invalid. The LRA, a Christian terrorist vigilante group do much the same thing but I don't hear much condemnation of them. Not to mention the tit for tat violence in Nigeria where only the crimes by Muslims are reported and condemned, but the crimes of Christians are all but ignored.

[jafar00]

You think a website that tries to bridge a relationship between Jewish people and Muslims is "hate filled"? Because that's the sources for everything that was posted - other than the stuff spewed by the Muslim leaders that you ignored. And the crap they spoke of was also sourced from elsewhere. Are those leaders that spoke not Muslims? If they are reading and teaching incorrectly, how did they get to be in high positions? How come no one is correcting them?

Sources aside, can you refute my argument?

[jimnyc]

Sources aside, can you refute my argument?

I've got no need to. I believe the stuff I posted is true and I have read many other translations that are all in the same general area. Add in the fact that Muslim leaders speak the same things. Then add in the fact that so many Muslims do in fact abuse women. There has to be a reason that these other Muslims are preaching differently than you are.

[jafar00]

I've got no need to. I believe the stuff I posted is true and I have read many other translations that are all in the same general area. Add in the fact that Muslim leaders speak the same things. Then add in the fact that so many Muslims do in fact abuse women. There has to be a reason that these other Muslims are preaching differently than you are.

I don't know what Muslim leaders you are talking to but I have been taught the opposite of what you say.

Also, abuse of women is not exclusive to Muslims. Bad people are everywhere. I made a pledge when we were married to treat my wife by the examples of the Prophet Mohamed (saw) and will continue to do so. That is with kindness, equality and love.

[Roo]

Jaf let's cut to it......you don't care if we burn a Quran?

[jimnyc]

I don't know what Muslim leaders you are talking to but I have been taught the opposite of what you say.

Also, abuse of women is not exclusive to Muslims. Bad people are everywhere. I made a pledge when we were married to treat my wife by the examples of the Prophet Mohamed (saw) and will continue to do so. That is with kindness, equality and love.

The leaders I posted here, in the last 3 examples - http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?35873-Mob-burns-man-alive-for-burning-koran-pakistan&p=564137#post564137


Sheikh Yousef al-Qaradhawi, one of the most respected Muslim clerics in the world, once made the famous (and somewhat ridiculous statement) that "It is forbidden to beat the woman, unless it is necessary." He also went on to say that "one may beat only to safeguard Islamic behavior," leaving no doubt that wife-beating is a matter of religious sanction.

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1168.htm


Dr. Muzammil Saddiqi, the former president of ISNA (the Islamic Society of North America), a mainstream Muslim organization, says it is important that a wife "recognizes the authority of her husband in the house" and that he may use physical force if he is "sure it would improve the situation."

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2543/pub_detail.asp


Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Muhammad Ahmad Al-Tayyeb, the head of Al-Azhar, Sunni Islam's most prestigious institution says that "light beatings" and "punching" are part of a program to "reform the wife"

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4048.htm

Just a couple of MANY out there spouting this crap. And I mean MANY, unless of course one wants to turn a blind eye.

[Mr. P]

Odd that a believer in the supposed religion of peace would have such a violent AVATAR. Just sayin

[Roo]

Odd that a believer in the supposed religion of peace would have such a violent AVATAR. Just sayin

I was thinking the same thing..it's bit disturbing to look at.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Odd that a believer in the supposed religion of peace would have such a violent AVATAR. Just sayin

I just thought that it looked like a muslim taking action after thinking a Koran had not been shown the proper respect.
Could be that is it and is his message being sent by using it.
Of course my avatar isnt exactly peacful but at least it is meant as humor more than anything else.-Tyr

[Roo]

I just thought that it looked like a muslim taking action after thinking a Koran had not been shown the proper respect.
Could be that is it and is his message being sent by using it.
Of course my avatar isnt exactly peacful but at least it is meant as humor more than anything else.-Tyr

Which would make the little Hadji a sissy assed coward for not just stepping up and saying it.

But hey his pals hide behind and kill their own people ;)

[Nell's Room]

Mind telling us when the LAST lynching took place in the US for burnign a book or for anything for that matter??:poke:

The last known lynching, yes. As for those we don't know about, who knows?

In regards to the article, if the man was mentally ill, his actions should have been excused, but some people don't accept that and tortured this poor man. The people responsible should now be arrested by the same police who arrested the mentally ill man.

[DragonStryk72]

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.034



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/038-qmt.php#038.044



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/072-sbt.php#007.072.715



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/009-smt.php#009.3506



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2141



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2142



http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2126



http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1168.htm



http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2543/pub_detail.asp



http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4048.htm

Plenty more can be added, both from the Quran and the Hadith, but this should be enough to be denied for awhile. This collection was off of religionofpeace.com, but sources are included. We'll hear that the translations are wrong, obviously. :rolleyes:

Hold on, though Jim. In fairness, reading the Bible is like a Litany of people doing exactly what God said not to do, and doing it "for God's Will". I mean, even Solomon got in on the act with building a huge temple, and the Ark of the Convenant the central idol of the religion. What did God tell him right before that? "Build me no places of worship". How do you fuck that up?!

And that's just one example, there are tons throughout the bible. Clearly, the one constant in all beliefs in the divine is that man just doesn't fucking listen. I know why God used plagues and destruction, it's because we absolutely will not do "subtle".

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Which would make the little Hadji a sissy assed coward for not just stepping up and saying it.

But hey his pals hide behind and kill their own people ;)

They ever so bravely murder innocent women and children. In fact look for places to do so that will be the most effective. Killing the most...Too afraid to face our guys and fight they use roadside bombs because being graven cowards they arent man enough to fight man to man..-Tyr

[jafar00]

Jaf let's cut to it......you don't care if we burn a Quran?

No. In fact it's the preferred method of disposing of verses where the name of God is mentioned if the first method which is washing the words from the paper doesn't work. I've done it myself.


Odd that a believer in the supposed religion of peace would have such a violent AVATAR. Just sayin

Why do you desecrate your own flag?


I was thinking the same thing..it's bit disturbing to look at.

Here's me thinking it was just a clever bit of animation. If an avatar is supposed to be symbolic I can change it if you like.


They ever so bravely murder innocent women and children. In fact look for places to do so that will be the most effective. Killing the most...Too afraid to face our guys and fight they use roadside bombs because being graven cowards they arent man enough to fight man to man..-Tyr

Yes. Your guys are brave enough to call in airstrikes from a distance, or sit 10,000km away and use unmanned drones.
I'm not defending terrorists. I hate them probably more than you since they kill more Muslims every day than your guys do but you have no right to point fingers at people who kill innocent people in cold blood. You guys refer to innocents as collateral damage. Or you use the tired old excuse that they were human shields. Or you plant weapons on the bodies and claim they were combatants.

US troops are every bit as cowardly and sick as any terrorist. The only difference is that you spend more money on it.

[DragonStryk72]

You think a website that tries to bridge a relationship between Jewish people and Muslims is "hate filled"? Because that's the sources for everything that was posted - other than the stuff spewed by the Muslim leaders that you ignored. And the crap they spoke of was also sourced from elsewhere. Are those leaders that spoke not Muslims? If they are reading and teaching incorrectly, how did they get to be in high positions? How come no one is correcting them?

How many versions of the Bible are there, Jim? We have more than 11 thus far as I know, and I know I'm missing a few, and that's just the translations into English. They got to be in high positions the same way as the spanish inquisition did it. Hell, the church half knew that they were going over the line, but because they were backed by the King of Spain, there really wasn't much the church could really do at the time, without creating another schism.

The Hundred Years War was all about the various religious factions of Christendom taking a serious go at each other over their faction's "correct" interpretation of the Bible. Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists, Calvinists, Mennonites, Puritans, Church of England, they all had their own version of how the Bible read. So was every single version absolutely correct, or not? Cause guess what? That's where they're still at in Islam. People are using these differing interpretations to take advantage of people who have been continually attacked, and giving them an "Allah-sanctified" target for that anger that has nowhere to go. Most muslims in the ME are being used, just as we have had our own false prophets in Christianity. I think we can all think of a few recent examples on our own. Obama's pastor, for instance?

[Mr. P]

Why do you desecrate your own flag?


I don't.

Care to respond to my observation?

"Odd that a believer in the supposed religion of peace would have such a violent AVATAR. Just sayin"

[Mr. P]

yes. Your guys are brave enough to call in airstrikes from a distance, or sit 10,000km away and use unmanned drones.

it's not about brave really, although our guys/girls are. You see, it's about being technologically advanced instead of living in the stone age. technology wins over sticks and stones.

i'm not defending terrorists. I hate them probably more than you since they kill more muslims every day than your guys do but you have no right to point fingers at people who kill innocent people in cold blood. you guys refer to innocents as collateral damage.

bullshit, big difference here. "us guys", attempt to minimize innocent deaths and injury. Terrorists could give a shit and want as many dead as possible.

or you use the tired old excuse that they were human shields.

are you saying that doesn't happen?

or you plant weapons on the bodies and claim they were combatants.

hummm..is that routine or maybe isolated, links?

us troops are every bit as cowardly and sick as any terrorist.
:laugh:

The only difference is that you spend more money on it.

"it", what is "it"?


you fail...again
.

[red states rule]

Q: Wanna hear a joke?
A: Muslim Women's Rights.

[jimnyc]

Hold on, though Jim. In fairness, reading the Bible is like a Litany of people doing exactly what God said not to do, and doing it "for God's Will". I mean, even Solomon got in on the act with building a huge temple, and the Ark of the Convenant the central idol of the religion. What did God tell him right before that? "Build me no places of worship". How do you fuck that up?!

And that's just one example, there are tons throughout the bible. Clearly, the one constant in all beliefs in the divine is that man just doesn't fucking listen. I know why God used plagues and destruction, it's because we absolutely will not do "subtle".


How many versions of the Bible are there, Jim? We have more than 11 thus far as I know, and I know I'm missing a few, and that's just the translations into English. They got to be in high positions the same way as the spanish inquisition did it. Hell, the church half knew that they were going over the line, but because they were backed by the King of Spain, there really wasn't much the church could really do at the time, without creating another schism.

The Hundred Years War was all about the various religious factions of Christendom taking a serious go at each other over their faction's "correct" interpretation of the Bible. Protestants, Lutherans, Baptists, Calvinists, Mennonites, Puritans, Church of England, they all had their own version of how the Bible read. So was every single version absolutely correct, or not? Cause guess what? That's where they're still at in Islam. People are using these differing interpretations to take advantage of people who have been continually attacked, and giving them an "Allah-sanctified" target for that anger that has nowhere to go. Most muslims in the ME are being used, just as we have had our own false prophets in Christianity. I think we can all think of a few recent examples on our own. Obama's pastor, for instance?

I hear what you're saying, DS, but I'm talking about modern times. And we don't have a whole lot of preachers going around advocating the beating of ones wife or killing infidels, which is all over the place in the Islamic world. Point out all of those Christians/Catholics preaching to beat women or kill others, and I will condemn them just the same. Unfortunately, right now, it's like 999 out of 1000 of them being Muslim.

[DragonStryk72]

I hear what you're saying, DS, but I'm talking about modern times. And we don't have a whole lot of preachers going around advocating the beating of ones wife or killing infidels, which is all over the place in the Islamic world. Point out all of those Christians/Catholics preaching to beat women or kill others, and I will condemn them just the same. Unfortunately, right now, it's like 999 out of 1000 of them being Muslim.

What about shooting abortion clinic doctors? Yeah, that wasn't that long ago, and the Bible even has flat statements that you shouldn't murder. Does it stop us? No. Does that make Christianity a religion a hate? No. And the Church used to do every single thing you're bitching about Islam doing. Fuck, if you were a Protestant when the new Calvinist invader took over your town, then you could be burned at the stake as a heretic, and your lands seized by the Calvinist church.

You know what the difference is? We had the Vatican, and the papal authority. Much as people want to bitch about the actions the church government took, at least it did in fact have one, to where wrongs could be redressed, and warring factions have been brought into line.

They don't have that, they have 3 equally powerful factions that believe, without doubt, that their interpretation is absolutely the right one, and the factions have 500 years of blood feuds built up in the tank.

Just look how much shit Jafar took. I've seen a dozen gamer with that same Avatar, and I know the site he got it from, but even that wasn't enough. Think about if a bunch of guys came on here and started talking down to Sassy about her avatars. You'd be pissed, right? Sure as hell I would be, you've seen me go off at someone for going after Sassy before. All he came on here and said is that his religion is one of peace, but it's those in power that are fueling the hate, and has taken nothing but shit for it the whole time.

He's not disagreeing with you Jim, but if we won't even listen when reasonable Muslims speak up, how precisely is anything there going to change? We learned out lesson about not doing these things, but they're just not there yet. So let's give Jafar a chance, here. It's the Christian thing to do.

[jimnyc]

He's not disagreeing with you Jim, but if we won't even listen when reasonable Muslims speak up, how precisely is anything there going to change? We learned out lesson about not doing these things, but they're just not there yet. So let's give Jafar a chance, here. It's the Christian thing to do.

I'm more than willing to give him a chance, I enjoy the back and forth and opportunity to learn something. But he has disagreed with certain points I brought up, and I simply defend my points is all. Outside of that, I think Jafar is a reasonable Muslim and I acknowledge he doesn't seem to be of the same cloth as those I condemn. But he defends things that I take issue with, and I guess that's where we butt heads.

I'm willing to pull back on some rhetoric though. I know I can get a tad carried away. I have similar arguments with my friends and then we punch one another later and make up! They tell me I'm one of the only Americans who talks to them and wants to learn more about them and where they're from, and they also said that I'm one of the only ones to be vocal in my disagreement with them! LOL After like 10 years of discussing and fighting with them, we're better friends for it I believe. But I suppose it's different in person than being like that on-line.

[Drummond]

I'm trying to remember the last time a mob of Christians invaded a police station, ANYWHERE, to capture a prisoner being held there for burning a Bible. Or to pour inflammable liquid on said captured individual and set him on fire.

Do Christians protest on the streets if someone ever draws an 'unflattering' likeness of Christ, baying for the individual's blood ?

Are Christians known for setting up terrorist cells, then going around beheading people ?

Perhaps they call for the death penalty if a teacher allows a student to call a teddy bear 'Jesus' ? ... See this, for the 'Muslim equivalent' ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-497490/Thousands-Islamic-fanatics-wielding-knives-demand-jailed-teddy-bear-teacher-executed.html

How many hijacked Jumbo Jets have been flown into Muslim skyscrapers ?

By the way, 'Jafar', I'm curious. Where are you from ? And to confirm, are you a committed Muslim ?

[aboutime]

you fail...again
.


This guy is actually convinced that he alone, is capable of fooling us with his intentionally racist, and bigoted rants. All designed to instigate further hate, and discontent among WE THE MEMBERS.
It's a generally well known trick used by Terrorists. Much like luring people down the street toward the IED jafar00 just planted, before sunrise and designed to take out as many people jafar hates..as possible.

Actually. We should all use jafar as a Learning Tool, and a warning of what is to Come in the future from those who have TWO FACES. One face holds out that smile, and says Welcome. While the other Face, silently reaches into his pocket, to press that button to EXPLODE the IED, and make people like him Martyrs, spreading their pig-smelling guts all over the place for the flies, and dogs to enjoy.

[Drummond]

The last known lynching, yes. As for those we don't know about, who knows?

In regards to the article, if the man was mentally ill, his actions should have been excused, but some people don't accept that and tortured this poor man. The people responsible should now be arrested by the same police who arrested the mentally ill man.

I'm unclear. Are you saying that if the individual hadn't suffered from mental illness or handicap, the actions of the mob would've been excusable ?

[Kathianne]

riffing off Drummond, I don't remember reading that 'while many Christians condemned the abortion clinic bombers or assassinating abortion doctor, they do understand why some would do so..."

[Gaffer]

As to the abortion clinics, don't even go there. There might be one killing every ten years or so and it's done by a nut case. You can do better than this.

During all those years of christians fighting among themselves they were also fighting off the muslims. The inquisitions were not about witches, it was about persecution of muslims. To drive them out of Europe. Jews too for that matter.

The muslims have had 1400 years to get things right with their religion. They failed. For every jafer talking peace, there are a 100 fanatical, uneducated, blind followers of the evil men that control the religion. A religion that demands subjugation, conquest and dominance over the entire world. It's all there in the koran among the flowery words jafer likes to quote.

Muslims hate the Jews because the koran tells them too. Why does it do that. Because mohammed made things up as he went along. He suffered his first defeat in his conquests at the hands of Jews. He never forgot that. He was determined all Jews would pay for that humiliation. My sources for this opinion would be Robert Spencer and Pamella Geller to name a couple.

jafer defends iran, the single largest terrorist supporting country in the world. Ruled by the mad mullahs and their puppet president. He also supports the muslim brotherhood. A terrorist organization that dates back to 1922 with the goal of reestablishing the caliphate. The grand daddy of all the splintered muslim terrorist organizations throughout the world. He then quotes flowery words from the koran saying the actual words were misinterpreted or taken out of context.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm trying to remember the last time a mob of Christians invaded a police station, ANYWHERE, to capture a prisoner being held there for burning a Bible. Or to pour inflammable liquid on said captured individual and set him on fire.

Do Christians protest on the streets if someone ever draws an 'unflattering' likeness of Christ, baying for the individual's blood ?

Are Christians known for setting up terrorist cells, then going around beheading people ?

Perhaps they call for the death penalty if a teacher allows a student to call a teddy bear 'Jesus' ? ... See this, for the 'Muslim equivalent' ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-497490/Thousands-Islamic-fanatics-wielding-knives-demand-jailed-teddy-bear-teacher-executed.html

How many hijacked Jumbo Jets have been flown into Muslim skyscrapers ?

By the way, 'Jafar', I'm curious. Where are you from ? And to confirm, are you a committed Muslim ?

All great point my friend!
Jafar's problem is that he also tries to defend Islam's barbaric practices as well. He does defend Sharia law and that does not pass muster with those of us that know its evil. His attempting to find equally numbered and equally comparable evil actions in the modern Christain era is truly futile. When we speak primarily of Islam's actions from 1938 onward to current events. He can usually only reference ancient actions by the Catholic Church hundreds of years past. NOTHING COMPARES TO MODERN ISLAM AND IT'S MURDERING RAMPAGE ACROSS THE GLOBE NOW!-TYR

[jimnyc]

A terrorist organization that dates back to 1922 with the goal of reestablishing the caliphate.

Ever hear of United Muslim Nations International? I'm sure they don't speak for peaceful Muslims, but this gives an idea of what many other Muslims do in fact preach and gives an insight to the desires of many:


A Muslim group has released its plan to “wipe Christianity from the face of the earth,” Islamize the West and establish an Islamic system of world government – placing those who resist “under a police state.”

The 23-page booklet, “The Global Islamic Civilization: The Power of a Nation Revived,” is the brainchild of the United Muslim Nations International, a group led by Sheik Farook al-Mohammedi. The document outlines a plan for Muslim world domination and the re-establishment of the Caliphate.

Al-Mohammedi leaves no doubt about his view of Christianity.

“Christianity should be destroyed and wiped from the face of the earth,” al-Mohammedi said. “It is an evil demonic and Anti-Christ system, all Christians are in complete Ignorance.”

The sheik includes a veiled threat in his remarks.

“Islamic Power has returned upon the face of the earth and the Revived Global Caliphate has set eyes on the West to once and for all rid the world of Christianity and there is nothing you can do about it,” al-Mohammedi said.

He makes his objective clear.

“I have pledged and made a firm promise to the Caliphate of the United Muslim Nations International organization that I will do my utmost to Islamize all of the West within a short period of time,” al-Mohammedi said.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/muslim-group-wipe-christianity-from-face-of-earth/

[aboutime]

As to the abortion clinics, don't even go there. There might be one killing every ten years or so and it's done by a nut case. You can do better than this.

During all those years of christians fighting among themselves they were also fighting off the muslims. The inquisitions were not about witches, it was about persecution of muslims. To drive them out of Europe. Jews too for that matter.

The muslims have had 1400 years to get things right with their religion. They failed. For every jafer talking peace, there are a 100 fanatical, uneducated, blind followers of the evil men that control the religion. A religion that demands subjugation, conquest and dominance over the entire world. It's all there in the koran among the flowery words jafer likes to quote.

Muslims hate the Jews because the koran tells them too. Why does it do that. Because mohammed made things up as he went along. He suffered his first defeat in his conquests at the hands of Jews. He never forgot that. He was determined all Jews would pay for that humiliation. My sources for this opinion would be Robert Spencer and Pamella Geller to name a couple.

jafer defends iran, the single largest terrorist supporting country in the world. Ruled by the mad mullahs and their puppet president. He also supports the muslim brotherhood. A terrorist organization that dates back to 1922 with the goal of reestablishing the caliphate. The grand daddy of all the splintered muslim terrorist organizations throughout the world. He then quotes flowery words from the koran saying the actual words were misinterpreted or taken out of context.


Gaffer. The problem, in a nutshell is. It is impossible to DEFEND the un-defendable. But jafar has been a victim of the teachings that, in most respects. Qualifies fully as a form of brainwashing.
Watch the response, and count on Christianity being mentioned as the Defensive tactic. But still, without the Sanctification of the Killing, Stoning, and destruction of fellow Christians in the Modern world we live in.
If anyone dares to keep score on the DEAD. I suspect jafar will create another excuse to EXCUSE such deaths.

[Gaffer]

Ever hear of United Muslim Nations International? I'm sure they don't speak for peaceful Muslims, but this gives an idea of what many other Muslims do in fact preach and gives an insight to the desires of many:



http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/muslim-group-wipe-christianity-from-face-of-earth/

I don't remember hearing of that particular group but their leaders name sounds familiar. I'll bet they are an off shoot of the MB. If he's the same guy I'm thinking of he published a blue print for how the caliphate would be established and the time frame, roughly 20 years. I think we are in year six now.

[jafar00]

By the way, 'Jafar', I'm curious. Where are you from ? And to confirm, are you a committed Muslim ?

Australia. Yes.


This guy is actually convinced that he alone, is capable of fooling us with his intentionally racist, and bigoted rants. All designed to instigate further hate, and discontent among WE THE MEMBERS.
It's a generally well known trick used by Terrorists. Much like luring people down the street toward the IED jafar00 just planted, before sunrise and designed to take out as many people jafar hates..as possible.

Actually. We should all use jafar as a Learning Tool, and a warning of what is to Come in the future from those who have TWO FACES. One face holds out that smile, and says Welcome. While the other Face, silently reaches into his pocket, to press that button to EXPLODE the IED, and make people like him Martyrs, spreading their pig-smelling guts all over the place for the flies, and dogs to enjoy.


That was a clever use of bigotry to accuse me of bigotry. I'd take a step back and look at the stuff you write before accusing others of wrong doing.

[jimnyc]

I don't remember hearing of that particular group but their leaders name sounds familiar. I'll bet they are an off shoot of the MB. If he's the same guy I'm thinking of he published a blue print for how the caliphate would be established and the time frame, roughly 20 years. I think we are in year six now.

Check this site out for reality - http://www.khilafah.com/ and be sure to read their about us page:


Since it was founded in 1996, Khilafah.com has earned a reputation for being the foremost Islamic political and ideological website in the English language. Khilafah.com is dedicated to articulating the case for Islam as an ideology that provides solutions for all human problems and all human relationships. It is our belief that Islam must be understood ideologically that deals with individual and societal problems. At the forefront of the call of Islam (Da’wah) today is the case of presenting Islam as a challenge to the current chaos, inequality, despotism and international disorder – all a consequence of Western liberalism (Capitalism).

Since the 3rd March 1924, the Khilafah State was destroyed, marking the end of an illustrious era of Islamic rule. Since then, the dark shadow of the West has engulfed the world. We assert, without compromise, that it is only by the establishment of the Khilafah State, that the practical solutions of Islam can once again provide a real alternative for the entire world. The ‘Clash of Civilisations’ first discussed by Samuel Huntington is real and inevitable. We endorse the notion that there is a civilisational difference between Islam and the West and that the problem for the West is Islam and the problem for Islam is the West. By arguing this, we also maintain Islam, as a universal ideology, came for all of humankind, Muslim and Non-Muslims, and as such it is only Islam that serves as a Rahma (mercy) for all mankind. As the western ideology dominates the world today, the only challenge to it must come from Islam.

http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/about-us

[jimnyc]

And for those unsure, Khilafah is really just another way of saying caliphate.

[Roo]

jafer defends iran, the single largest terrorist supporting country in the world. Ruled by the mad mullahs and their puppet president. He also supports the muslim brotherhood. A terrorist organization that dates back to 1922 with the goal of reestablishing the caliphate. The grand daddy of all the splintered muslim terrorist organizations throughout the world. He then quotes flowery words from the koran saying the actual words were misinterpreted or taken out of context.

What Jafar won't say is what sect of Shia the Iranian Leadership is.....

[aboutime]

jafer defends iran, the single largest terrorist supporting country in the world. Ruled by the mad mullahs and their puppet president. He also supports the muslim brotherhood. A terrorist organization that dates back to 1922 with the goal of reestablishing the caliphate. The grand daddy of all the splintered muslim terrorist organizations throughout the world. He then quotes flowery words from the koran saying the actual words were misinterpreted or taken out of context.

What Jafar won't say is what sect of Shia the Iranian Leadership is.....


jafar also seems to believe most of us are as gullible, and easily led as those who so easily voted for Obama, and follow his every word as if it was HOLY. Which, in many respects really is whenever jafar refers to his favorite Mullah Obama...without actually mentioning him by name.
jafar might also be a spokesperson for Louis FarraCONeverybody, and Ahmadinnerjacket. The Brothers from the Brotherhood in the White House.

[DragonStryk72]

I'm more than willing to give him a chance, I enjoy the back and forth and opportunity to learn something. But he has disagreed with certain points I brought up, and I simply defend my points is all. Outside of that, I think Jafar is a reasonable Muslim and I acknowledge he doesn't seem to be of the same cloth as those I condemn. But he defends things that I take issue with, and I guess that's where we butt heads.

I'm willing to pull back on some rhetoric though. I know I can get a tad carried away. I have similar arguments with my friends and then we punch one another later and make up! They tell me I'm one of the only Americans who talks to them and wants to learn more about them and where they're from, and they also said that I'm one of the only ones to be vocal in my disagreement with them! LOL After like 10 years of discussing and fighting with them, we're better friends for it I believe. But I suppose it's different in person than being like that on-line.

Jim, that's everybody on the damn site, though, lol. Name one poster who doesn't defend something that you take issue with. Hell, I think that's the core reason for the site.

Well, in person, there's a lot of context that's missing online.

[DragonStryk72]

As to the abortion clinics, don't even go there. There might be one killing every ten years or so and it's done by a nut case. You can do better than this.

During all those years of christians fighting among themselves they were also fighting off the muslims. The inquisitions were not about witches, it was about persecution of muslims. To drive them out of Europe. Jews too for that matter.

The muslims have had 1400 years to get things right with their religion. They failed. For every jafer talking peace, there are a 100 fanatical, uneducated, blind followers of the evil men that control the religion. A religion that demands subjugation, conquest and dominance over the entire world. It's all there in the koran among the flowery words jafer likes to quote.

Muslims hate the Jews because the koran tells them too. Why does it do that. Because mohammed made things up as he went along. He suffered his first defeat in his conquests at the hands of Jews. He never forgot that. He was determined all Jews would pay for that humiliation. My sources for this opinion would be Robert Spencer and Pamella Geller to name a couple.

jafer defends iran, the single largest terrorist supporting country in the world. Ruled by the mad mullahs and their puppet president. He also supports the muslim brotherhood. A terrorist organization that dates back to 1922 with the goal of reestablishing the caliphate. The grand daddy of all the splintered muslim terrorist organizations throughout the world. He then quotes flowery words from the koran saying the actual words were misinterpreted or taken out of context.

You mean, like the muslims we're fighting today? Yeah

You know what? They're not fighting the Jews because of the Quran, they're pissed at Israel because it was foisted on them, and then got our direct backing for a few decades while we played "Let's Beat the Russians" with their homes and families. We didn't get to this alone.

Jafar is not defending Iran doing horrible things. The only thing he said is that his is not the religion of war you are rabidly attacking it as, and that the Quran is being interpreted badly by those in power. Not everyone reads the whole Bible, so why would you believe that every Muslim is a master of the Quran. People use the Bible all the time for whatever they want, and you've seen the abuses of that, so again, why would Muslims be so much different?

And really? There are hate groups springing up in the middle of a ten year long war? NO!!! How could that possibly happen? It's not like any Roman satraps ever got pissed off at their overlords, is it?

Again, the bible has more than 11 English interpretations, so are every single one of them absolutely correct? No, of course not, so why would it be different in a language with several hundred more letters in its alphabet than ours? What, were people back then just incapable of making grammatical errors? That's something totally new to the internet generations?

[jimnyc]

Jim, that's everybody on the damn site, though, lol. Name one poster who doesn't defend something that you take issue with. Hell, I think that's the core reason for the site.

Well, in person, there's a lot of context that's missing online.

Oh, I know that, I don't disagree. It just sounded earlier as if you didn't think I am giving him a fair chance. He has as much opportunity to speak up here as everyone else and not limited in any way more than others. I'm confident that if he went in more than just Muslim threads or things to condemn the USA about, he would receive much kinder responses. But when someone only jumps into the heated topics, they're likely to only get heated replies. It doesn't mean I hate the guy, or he isn't welcome here. But if someone wants to defend all things Islam, then they should be prepared for us to bring up a lot of the unsavory things currently going on within Islam today.

[jimnyc]

You mean, like the muslims we're fighting today? Yeah

You know what? They're not fighting the Jews because of the Quran, they're pissed at Israel because it was foisted on them, and then got our direct backing for a few decades while we played "Let's Beat the Russians" with their homes and families. We didn't get to this alone.

Jafar is not defending Iran doing horrible things. The only thing he said is that his is not the religion of war you are rabidly attacking it as, and that the Quran is being interpreted badly by those in power. Not everyone reads the whole Bible, so why would you believe that every Muslim is a master of the Quran. People use the Bible all the time for whatever they want, and you've seen the abuses of that, so again, why would Muslims be so much different?

And really? There are hate groups springing up in the middle of a ten year long war? NO!!! How could that possibly happen? It's not like any Roman satraps ever got pissed off at their overlords, is it?

Again, the bible has more than 11 English interpretations, so are every single one of them absolutely correct? No, of course not, so why would it be different in a language with several hundred more letters in its alphabet than ours? What, were people back then just incapable of making grammatical errors? That's something totally new to the internet generations?

With respect, DS, I think the point many are making is these problems in Islam are happening TODAY, in all corners of the world. Of course comparisons can always be made, and idiots will be found in every city of every country. But proportionately speaking, Islam completely obliterates any other religion or way of life when it comes to current day terrorism, abuse of women and perversion of their religion for means of violence. Yes, this happens elsewhere, but not nearly as much. There are some very serious problems within the Islamic world today, and a large portion of the Muslim world either denies it or turns a blind eye to it.

[jafar00]

With respect, DS, I think the point many are making is these problems in Islam are happening TODAY, in all corners of the world. Of course comparisons can always be made, and idiots will be found in every city of every country. But proportionately speaking, Islam completely obliterates any other religion or way of life when it comes to current day terrorism, abuse of women and perversion of their religion for means of violence. Yes, this happens elsewhere, but not nearly as much. There are some very serious problems within the Islamic world today, and a large portion of the Muslim world either denies it or turns a blind eye to it.

With respect Jim, the problems you mention are widespread and not restricted Muslims.

Here are some Christians performing summary executions which our screens would normally be telling us are being perpetrated by the Taliban (Look from 1:33)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1hc1zKnLr0

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

With respect Jim, the problems you mention are widespread and not restricted Muslims.

Here are some Christians performing summary executions which our screens would normally be telling us are being perpetrated by the Taliban (Look from 1:33)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1hc1zKnLr0

Here is some information about Iran and what it really plans.-Tyr Sleeper cells here waiting for the word to do their deeds.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-na-iran-spy-20120707,0,7889639.story

Former CIA spy advocates overthrow of Iranian regime
Reza Kahlili, living in the shadows with a fake name and disguise, worked from inside the Revolutionary Guard. He warns of terrorist sleeper cells in the U.S. and a plot to destroy Israel.

Former CIA spy Reza Kahlili lived a double life until the mid-1990s, passing along Iran’s secrets to the CIA and recruiting Revolutionary Guards for the agency. In a sense, he resumed his double identity after publishing his 2010 memoir. (Reza Kahlili / July 7, 2012)


July 6, 2012, 6:33 p.m.
Los Angeles Times

ARLINGTON, Va. — His disguise consists of a blue surgeon's mask, sunglasses and a baseball cap that reads "Free Iran." A small modulator distorts his voice. He uses a pseudonym, Reza Kahlili.

He lives in fear, he says, because his years as a paid spy for the CIA inside Iran have made him an assassination target of Iran's government. He worries about his wife and children, who live with him in California.

At the same time, implausibly, he has become one of the most influential and outspoken voices in the U.S. advocating the overthrow of the Iranian government.

For the last two years, Kahlili has gone semipublic with a memoir, a blog, op-ed pieces and invitation-only speeches at think tanks. He warns that Iran operates terrorist sleeper cells inside the United States and is determined to build nuclear weapons to destroy Israel. The U.S. should respond, he argues, by supporting the opposition inside Iran.

He travels furtively between appearances, working as a Pentagon consultant and as a member of a domestic security task force.

"There's probably nobody better on our side in explaining the mind-set of those in power in Iran," said Peter Vincent Pry, a former CIA military analyst who directs the Task Force on National and Homeland Security. "He understands the ideological sources of Iran's nuclear program."

U.S. Rep. Peter T. King (R-N.Y.), chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, said Kahlili has convinced him of the importance of supporting the opposition and hardening sanctions against Iran.

"I thought I knew a lot about Iran until meeting with him," King said on a New York political radio program in January. At the time, Kahlili was a guest and King was a guest-host, but the two had previously met in the congressman's office.

"If you're going to take this issue seriously, the one person you have to consult with and read his writings is Reza Kahlili," King said.

In a quiet hotel lounge in Arlington, Kahlili is not wearing his disguise or using his voice modulator for a meeting with a reporter.

"You'd be shocked by how easily agents from the Revolutionary Guard come and go inside the United States every day," Kahlili says in a near-whisper, bent over a table in a dark corner.

A soft-spoken man in his mid-50s, Kahlili is wearing jeans, a sports shirt and a black coat. He's of average height and weight, with a smattering of facial hair.

He made certain he wasn't followed, he says, and performed a quick security check of the hotel.

"They'd kill me if they could find me," he says of Iranian agents.

Mark Zaid, a national security lawyer in Washington, D.C., said he had confirmed that Kahlili was a longtime operative of a U.S. intelligence agency, adding: "He has insights on Iran most people in the U.S. intelligence community don't have."

For covert operatives, clearance agreements with the CIA often prohibit public acknowledgment of the agreement itself or of the CIA. A CIA spokesman, Todd D. Ebitz, said the agency had no comment on Kahlili.

Brian Weidner, program coordinator for Iran instruction at the Joint Counterintelligence Training Academy, confirmed that Kahlili is a paid lecturer for the Pentagon agency. Other instructors are videotaped, Kahlili says, but his lectures are audio-only to protect his identity.

***

[jafar00]

Here is some information about Iran and what it really plans.-Tyr Sleeper cells here waiting for the word to do their deeds.


<checks under sofa>

Nope... no smelly little terrorists hiding amongst the dust bunnies and small change.

Do you really believe this stuff? Al Qaeda supposedly had dozens of sleeper cells hidden in the US ready to strike at a moment's notice too. It's the same cock and bull conspiracy story we were fed a decade ago. So, where are they? Still sleeping?

[DragonStryk72]

I don't.

Care to respond to my observation?

It's a stick figure avatar, which is pretty cool. Care to wonder why you ask him about it, and not the other hundreds of gamers who've used the same, or even violent ones?

[DragonStryk72]

<checks under="" sofa="">

Nope... no smelly little terrorists hiding amongst the dust bunnies and small change.

Do you really believe this stuff? Al Qaeda supposedly had dozens of sleeper cells hidden in the US ready to strike at a moment's notice too. It's the same cock and bull conspiracy story we were fed a decade ago. So, where are they? Still sleeping?

Yeah, Tyr believes, far as I can tell, and there's no convincing him otherwise. He has his good points, but he really gets lost on those conspiracy theories.
</checks>

[Gaffer]

Yeah, Tyr believes, far as I can tell, and there's no convincing him otherwise. He has his good points, but he really gets lost on those conspiracy theories.


I believe it too. Because, unlike al queada, the sleeper cells are supported by a major country and part of an organization that is 50,000 strong. They have had years to establish these cells.

Think about it logically. You have a country that is strong in fanaticism, that wants to dominate an entire region. They have to stand up against an enemy far superior to them. They don't have the means to attack their enemy except locally and can only really defend. How do you act offensively? Place agents throughout the enemies country. You also have supporters, appeasers and apologists within the country to aid you. When war breaks out you activate the cells. The cells are not necessarily made up of iranians. iran controls hezbo, and there are any other number of ethnic groups who would side with iran purely based on religion.

If I can think of this, you can bet they have too. If you prepare for the worst you won't be surprised when it happens.

[aboutime]

<checks under="" sofa="">

Nope... no smelly little terrorists hiding amongst the dust bunnies and small change.

Do you really believe this stuff? Al Qaeda supposedly had dozens of sleeper cells hidden in the US ready to strike at a moment's notice too. It's the same cock and bull conspiracy story we were fed a decade ago. So, where are they? Still sleeping?

So, tell us jafar. How long have you been where you are. Hiding amongst the dust bunnies, and small change, trying to conceal your smell in that Formerly Hidden Sleeper Cell?

From the sound of your needs to defend M.E. Nations that harbor, and train terrorists. You silently wish you could strike at a moments notice too!
As for that cock and bull conspiracy. WRONG. Coming from you. That would be more like FLYING PIGS, and Little Runts. And they NEVER SLEEP. What time is it where you are?</checks>

[Gaffer]

<checks under="" sofa="">

Nope... no smelly little terrorists hiding amongst the dust bunnies and small change.

Do you really believe this stuff? Al Qaeda supposedly had dozens of sleeper cells hidden in the US ready to strike at a moment's notice too. It's the same cock and bull conspiracy story we were fed a decade ago. So, where are they? Still sleeping?
</checks>



<checks under="" sofa="">I would expect this from you. Deny, deny, deny. For your information there were al quaeda groups in the US that were taken down after 9/11. It just wasn't reported except for a few high profile cases. Reporting multiple busts of terrorists was not what the media wanted to do at the time. It made Bush look good.

You think iran would set all this up without a number of baghdad bob's in place to say it's all BS and just go back to sleep? Pay no attention to that little mosque on the corner, the guys there are always nice and smiling. Some even go to bars and strip joints. They're westernized. Just like the infamous 19.
</checks>
<checks under="" sofa="">






</checks>

[Drummond]

<checks under sofa>

Nope... no smelly little terrorists hiding amongst the dust bunnies and small change.

Do you really believe this stuff? Al Qaeda supposedly had dozens of sleeper cells hidden in the US ready to strike at a moment's notice too. It's the same cock and bull conspiracy story we were fed a decade ago. So, where are they? Still sleeping?

How do you know they're not ?

How many terrorists did it take to perpetrate the 9/11 attacks in total ?

Why would anyone doubt that Al Qaeda has had ample chance to get enough terrorists loyal to it to launch DOZENS of future such attacks ? Or maybe HUNDREDS ?

How many terrorists would it take to deploy a WMD ?

No, 'Jafar' ... as I see it, there's no such thing as too much security, not in today's climate. One should never trust nor accept messages preaching complacency.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

How do you know they're not ?

How many terrorists did it take to perpetrate the 9/11 attacks in total ?

Why would anyone doubt that Al Qaeda has had ample chance to get enough terrorists loyal to it to launch DOZENS of future such attacks ? Or maybe HUNDREDS ?

How many terrorists would it take to deploy a WMD ?

No, 'Jafar' ... as I see it, there's no such thing as too much security, not in today's climate. One should never trust nor accept messages preaching complacency.

Jafar writes as if he somehow knows exactly how many terrorists are here. Amazing isnt it? That he speaks with such knowlegable authority on the subject. Didnt he previously state that he is in Australia? Thats quite some long distance view eh?--Tyr

[gabosaurus]

So, tell us jafar. How long have you been where you are. Hiding amongst the dust bunnies, and small change, trying to conceal your smell in that Formerly Hidden Sleeper Cell?

From the sound of your needs to defend M.E. Nations that harbor, and train terrorists. You silently wish you could strike at a moments notice too!
As for that cock and bull conspiracy. WRONG. Coming from you. That would be more like FLYING PIGS, and Little Runts. And they NEVER SLEEP. What time is it where you are?

Wow, such hatred and idiocy. Where is your proof, big mouth? Or are you merely spouting the usual stupidity that comes from your kind.
You are right that Middle East countries harbor and train terrorists. Including Saudi Arabia, who we blindly support and shovel tons of money to. And including Israel, a terrorist nation that we support because of some misguided religious notion.
It is your kind that allowed the 9-11 attacks to happen, which led to the invasions of two countries that did nothing to deserve it.
Yes, abouttime, you and your ilk are the real terrorists. You want people killed because they don't fit your midset.

There is a lot of hatred and idiocy in this forum. People who would rather kill people than think.
It is you people that are a cancer on American society. You infect the hearts and minds of those who might think otherwise. Unfortunately, there is no treatment for your cancer. Other than death, which I hope comes quite soon.
How unfortunate that there is so much brain cancer amongst you. The rest of us are your victims. Sort of like second hand smoke. Too bad we can't segregate you from normal people like we can smokers.

[aboutime]

Wow, such hatred and idiocy. Where is your proof, big mouth? Or are you merely spouting the usual stupidity that comes from your kind.
You are right that Middle East countries harbor and train terrorists. Including Saudi Arabia, who we blindly support and shovel tons of money to. And including Israel, a terrorist nation that we support because of some misguided religious notion.
It is your kind that allowed the 9-11 attacks to happen, which led to the invasions of two countries that did nothing to deserve it.
Yes, abouttime, you and your ilk are the real terrorists. You want people killed because they don't fit your midset.

There is a lot of hatred and idiocy in this forum. People who would rather kill people than think.
It is you people that are a cancer on American society. You infect the hearts and minds of those who might think otherwise. Unfortunately, there is no treatment for your cancer. Other than death, which I hope comes quite soon.
How unfortunate that there is so much brain cancer amongst you. The rest of us are your victims. Sort of like second hand smoke. Too bad we can't segregate you from normal people like we can smokers.

Would you like to now tell all of us WHO "YOU PEOPLE" are?
You sound just like Obama, and every big mouth who speaks from their A-HOLE like you.

By the way. Your heart and mind was Infected really bad, the day you voted for Obama.
As for my cancer. Not to worry. I can't take your's away. But you might see a good dentist to treat yours.
I have been in remission now since 2006. YOU SICK SOB.

[Roo]

Wow, such hatred and idiocy. Where is your proof, big mouth? Or are you merely spouting the usual stupidity that comes from your kind.
You are right that Middle East countries harbor and train terrorists. Including Saudi Arabia, who we blindly support and shovel tons of money to. And including Israel, a terrorist nation that we support because of some misguided religious notion.
It is your kind that allowed the 9-11 attacks to happen, which led to the invasions of two countries that did nothing to deserve it.
Yes, abouttime, you and your ilk are the real terrorists. You want people killed because they don't fit your midset.

There is a lot of hatred and idiocy in this forum. People who would rather kill people than think.
It is you people that are a cancer on American society. You infect the hearts and minds of those who might think otherwise. Unfortunately, there is no treatment for your cancer. Other than death, which I hope comes quite soon.
How unfortunate that there is so much brain cancer amongst you. The rest of us are your victims. Sort of like second hand smoke. Too bad we can't segregate you from normal people like we can smokers.

Priceless irony :)

[Roo]

Jaffy baby...what sect of Shia does the Iranian leadership ascribe toooostop running from this and answer it.

[gabosaurus]

By the way. Your heart and mind was Infected really bad, the day you voted for Obama.
As for my cancer. Not to worry. I can't take your's away. But you might see a good dentist to treat yours.
I have been in remission now since 2006. YOU SICK SOB.

You make absolutely no sense at all. Perhaps you would like to explain yourself or provide some background.
Or perhaps you are RSR's ghost nic and have the exact same health problems as he did.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Jaffy baby...what sect of Shia does the Iranian leadership ascribe toooostop running from this and answer it.



http://www.examiner.com/article/iran-s-apocalyptic-vision
Gabriel awaits with God's sword of vengeance too. :laugh2: Dozen boy gonna be in for a big surprise..:laugh2:--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.examiner.com/article/iran-s-apocalyptic-vision
Gabriel awaits with God's sword of vengeance too. :laugh2: Dozen boy gonna be in for a big surprise..:laugh2:--Tyr

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/countries/bl_IranIslamShia.htm

[Roo]

http://www.examiner.com/article/iran-s-apocalyptic-vision
Gabriel awaits with God's sword of vengeance too. :laugh2: Dozen boy gonna be in for a big surprise..:laugh2:--Tyr

Thats why I wanted him to say.

Iran believes only chaos will bring back it's lord....

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Thats why I wanted him to say.

Iran believes only chaos will bring back it's lord....

You dead on accurate amigo! Iran's leadership will use a nuke on Israel as soon as they get one and have the capacity to fire it to the target. For they are unbelievably batshit crazy!--Tyr

[aboutime]

You dead on accurate amigo! Iran's leadership will use a nuke on Israel as soon as they get one and have the capacity to fire it to the target. For they are unbelievably batshit crazy!--Tyr

Agreed. Batshit Crazy is what makes AhmadinnerJacket tick. I have no doubt. If they manage to create a nuke, and a missile with the range. He will use it since he's the same idiot who told the world..Israel will be erased from the Earth.

He has to prove, unlike Obama. He is able to keep his promises.

[gabosaurus]

Agreed. Batshit Crazy is what makes AhmadinnerJacket tick. I have no doubt. If they manage to create a nuke, and a missile with the range. He will use it since he's the same idiot who told the world..Israel will be erased from the Earth.


If the entire Middle East were erased, the world would have far fewer problems. There is not a single nation in that region that deserves saving.

[Mr. P]

If the entire Middle East were erased, the world would have far fewer problems. There is not a single nation in that region that deserves saving.

Please explain. You may have a point, I donno.

Box yerself in much?:laugh:

[jafar00]

So, tell us jafar. How long have you been where you are. Hiding amongst the dust bunnies, and small change, trying to conceal your smell in that Formerly Hidden Sleeper Cell?

From the sound of your needs to defend M.E. Nations that harbor, and train terrorists. You silently wish you could strike at a moments notice too!
As for that cock and bull conspiracy. WRONG. Coming from you. That would be more like FLYING PIGS, and Little Runts. And they NEVER SLEEP. What time is it where you are?

I've been here since last December. So what of it? :p
And why do you keep asking me the time? It's 13:13.


<checks under="" sofa="">Pay no attention to that little mosque on the corner, the guys there are always nice and smiling. Some even go to bars and strip joints. They're westernized. Just like the infamous 19.</checks>

The 9/11 hijackers? 7 of those were still alive and smiling after they were named. Honestly, US "intelligence" gets so much wrong it's a wonder why anyone believes a word they say any more.


How many terrorists did it take to perpetrate the 9/11 attacks in total ?

Inclusive or not of Bush, Cheney.......?


Why would anyone doubt that Al Qaeda has had ample chance to get enough terrorists loyal to it to launch DOZENS of future such attacks ? Or maybe HUNDREDS ?

How many terrorists would it take to deploy a WMD ?

No, 'Jafar' ... as I see it, there's no such thing as too much security, not in today's climate. One should never trust nor accept messages preaching complacency.

If AQ wanted to or were capable of attacks they would have done so by now.


Jaffy baby...what sect of Shia does the Iranian leadership ascribe toooostop running from this and answer it.

Why do you keep asking me that? I'm a Sunni Muslim if you must know. How am I supposed to know what sect of Shia'ism the Iranian leaders follow? You might as well be asking me what sect of Christianity Obama follows. I have no idea.


If the entire Middle East were erased, the world would have far fewer problems. There is not a single nation in that region that deserves saving.

Nice. Calling for the worst genocide in history.

[gabosaurus]

Please explain. You may have a point, I donno.

Box yerself in much?:laugh:

Think of how many Middle East countries you guys have wanted to get rid off. Instead of merely nuking Iran or Syria, just nuke the entire region. No more terrorism, right?
And all that oil will be ours. Right? Of course... :rolleyes:

Come on, how many of those countries do we really need? We are better off without them. :salute:

[jimnyc]

If the entire Middle East were erased, the world would have far fewer problems. There is not a single nation in that region that deserves saving.


Nice. Calling for the worst genocide in history.


Think of how many Middle East countries you guys have wanted to get rid off. Instead of merely nuking Iran or Syria, just nuke the entire region. No more terrorism, right?
And all that oil will be ours. Right? Of course... :rolleyes:

Come on, how many of those countries do we really need? We are better off without them. :salute:

She gets mad if you pick on a poor Mexican living in America illegally, but calls for genocide in the Middle East. She'll backtrack now of course....

Oh, and Jordan is worth saving. Have you ever seen Queen Rania? That and I have a few friends that are there right now, so wait till they come back before blowing the place up.

[Roo]

Why do you keep asking me that? I'm a Sunni Muslim if you must know. How am I supposed to know what sect of Shia'ism the Iranian leaders follow? You might as well be asking me what sect of Christianity Obama follows. I have no idea.


Goes to credibility your honor....as I have stated before, you have no idea as to what you are talking about.

More homework for you, research the 12th Imam....I am going to make you a better Muslim.

[jafar00]

Why do you keep asking me that? I'm a Sunni Muslim if you must know. How am I supposed to know what sect of Shia'ism the Iranian leaders follow? You might as well be asking me what sect of Christianity Obama follows. I have no idea.


Goes to credibility your honor....as I have stated before, you have no idea as to what you are talking about.

More homework for you, research the 12th Imam....I am going to make you a better Muslim.

Ok. I know about the Mahdi but why am I supposed to know all about Shia sects? I am Sunni.

[Gaffer]

I was watching a Glenn Beck video earlier where he was talking about military excersizes in St Louis using humvees in an urban environment. So I did some searching and discovered they have done this sort of thing in a number of US cities. Chicago, Boston, Miami, Little Rock, and Los Angeles. They work with local police and federal police. Training for who knows what? I suspect what. But then I'm a nut. People like Beck look at it as quelling civil disturbances. But what if it's quelling islamist insurgents? It's something that has been going on for a little over 6 months and has never been done before.

Maybe someone in the pentagon is thinking like me.

[jimnyc]

Ok. I know about the Mahdi but why am I supposed to know all about Shia sects? I am Sunni.

What are your thoughts on Khilafa? http://www.khilafah.com/

[jimnyc]

What are your thoughts on Khilafa? http://www.khilafah.com/

Wow. There are some nutters out there with some great plans. To deny that this is the ultimate goal of many, many Muslims, would be very naive. I wonder what would happen to Muslims that don't agree fully with Shariah law or Khilafa? It's obvious that there is quite a split now, as not all Muslims are looking to apply this worldwide.

http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/the-khilafah/judiciary/13366-the-shariah-and-the-rule-of-law-islamic-governance-for-the-21st-century

[Roo]

Ok. I know about the Mahdi but why am I supposed to know all about Shia sects? I am Sunni.

No, I only asked you about the Iranian Leadership....and the sect that they belong to drives the geo-political decisons that they make...thats why they will push for War, its what will bring the Madhi back.

[gabosaurus]

I love how Americans (both parties) believe they have the right to meddle in the affairs of other countries. It shouldn't be our business what kind of governments that other nations have.
Africa has some of the worst dictatorships in the world, but we don't care because it doesn't affect us. And they aren't Muslims.
Saudi Arabia and China have the world human rights abusers on any scale, but we look the other way because they benefit us financially. It's just the countries that we don't like that bother us.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/zrzMhU_4m-g" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[jafar00]

What are your thoughts on Khilafa? http://www.khilafah.com/

Never seen it before. I haven't delved deep enough to have an opinion so far but it does seem a bit nutty on the surface.

[jimnyc]

Never seen it before. I haven't delved deep enough to have an opinion so far but it does seem a bit nutty on the surface.

And what about Caliphate, which is the same thing? Because while you may not be like other Muslims, many countries and many Muslims believe in Caliphate and the return of the Islamic empire. Mullah's, Imams and other religious leaders are spouting this crap around the world. Fwiw, my friends also agree it's absurd, but they know they've seen/heard of it before.

[gabosaurus]

And what about Caliphate, which is the same thing? Because while you may not be like other Muslims, many countries and many Muslims believe in Caliphate and the return of the Islamic empire. Mullah's, Imams and other religious leaders are spouting this crap around the world. Fwiw, my friends also agree it's absurd, but they know they've seen/heard of it before.

Jim, the horse is already dead. You don't have to keep beating it. :rolleyes:

[jimnyc]

Jim, the horse is already dead. You don't have to keep beating it. :rolleyes:

If you don't wish to be part of a discussion, you're free to post in a different thread. But that's a legitimate site and my questions are legit. But I guess when you get outside of your comfort zone, which is 8 out of 10 threads, you troll instead of discussing the topic at hand. If you don't understand what Khilafah is (Caliphate), and the history behind it, then leave it to the adults.

[gabosaurus]

Jim dear, I know about Khilafah. It's an extremist viewpoint, subscribed to by a very small portion of Muslims.
You see, unlike yourself, I have actually read the Quran. The entire book. I've had it explained to me (somewhat) by an Arabic speaking Muslim. I don't merely cherry pick the violent portions that support the viewpoints that I wish to get across.

Instead of having someone give you their interpretation of the Quran, perhaps you should read it yourself. The direct translation from Arabic, not someone's interpretation.

[jimnyc]

Jim dear, I know about Khilafah. It's an extremist viewpoint, subscribed to by a very small portion of Muslims.
You see, unlike yourself, I have actually read the Quran. The entire book. I've had it explained to me (somewhat) by an Arabic speaking Muslim. I don't merely cherry pick the violent portions that support the viewpoints that I wish to get across.

Instead of having someone give you their interpretation of the Quran, perhaps you should read it yourself. The direct translation from Arabic, not someone's interpretation.

A very small portion? LOL I've proven you wrong on so many things in the past year, only to have you magically disappear from those threads, that I won't even waste my time.

Is your knowledge of Muslims and the Quran better than your knowledge of Eqypt and Israel, and the peace treaty they have, and the money involved? :laugh2:

[jimnyc]

I just got back from getting my last coffee and my friend Abdul was there. He is 29yrs old and from Morocco. He said he never heard of that website before but knows the term very well, as should all Muslims. He said Muhammed said that Islam was the last religion and sent by God, and that it's the religion that everyone should therefore follow. He said that Mahdi will return as it's been told. He didn't make it sound as if Muslims planned to dominate the world and burn everyone else, but he did say that this was what was written and how it's supposed to be - and that ALL Muslims should believe in "Khalifa", which is spelled as he pronounced it.

[aboutime]

Jim dear, I know about Khilafah. It's an extremist viewpoint, subscribed to by a very small portion of Muslims.
You see, unlike yourself, I have actually read the Quran. The entire book. I've had it explained to me (somewhat) by an Arabic speaking Muslim. I don't merely cherry pick the violent portions that support the viewpoints that I wish to get across.

Instead of having someone give you their interpretation of the Quran, perhaps you should read it yourself. The direct translation from Arabic, not someone's interpretation.


Gabby. Patronizing and Condescending language in calling someone Dear, as you did. Now makes me, and possibly many others begin to question, and become suspect in explaining your feelings about respecting Ahmadinnerjacket. The GAY denial King of Iran.

Please. Do not ever call me Dear. I am not a BARNEY FRANK fan.

[ConHog]

Gabby. Patronizing and Condescending language in calling someone Dear, as you did. Now makes me, and possibly many others begin to question, and become suspect in explaining your feelings about respecting Ahmadinnerjacket. The GAY denial King of Iran.

Please. Do not ever call me Dear. I am not a BARNEY FRANK fan.

Gabby is a chick, a VERY VERY VERY hot chick.

Oh and link to Ahmadinejad being gay?

[jafar00]

And what about Caliphate, which is the same thing? Because while you may not be like other Muslims, many countries and many Muslims believe in Caliphate and the return of the Islamic empire. Mullah's, Imams and other religious leaders are spouting this crap around the world. Fwiw, my friends also agree it's absurd, but they know they've seen/heard of it before.

Yes, all Muslims know about the Mahdi and what will happen when he comes. However the timing is unknown to everyone and there is nothing anyone can do to bring it on nor to stop it once it happens. It is all part of God's plan. I just can't wait till Jesus comes along to lead the Muslims in prayer :)


A very small portion? LOL I've proven you wrong on so many things in the past year, only to have you magically disappear from those threads, that I won't even waste my time.

Is your knowledge of Muslims and the Quran better than your knowledge of Eqypt and Israel, and the peace treaty they have, and the money involved? :laugh2:

He is right. It must be a very small portion. I have prayed in a lot of Mosques in many countries from UK, to France, all through Europe, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, and other ME countries and throughout Asia and Oceania. I have never heard of these conspiracies by Muslims to take over the world and impose Sharia everywhere. Nor have I met an extremist or Al Qaeda agent either.


I just got back from getting my last coffee and my friend Abdul was there. He is 29yrs old and from Morocco. He said he never heard of that website before but knows the term very well, as should all Muslims. He said Muhammed said that Islam was the last religion and sent by God, and that it's the religion that everyone should therefore follow. He said that Mahdi will return as it's been told. He didn't make it sound as if Muslims planned to dominate the world and burn everyone else, but he did say that this was what was written and how it's supposed to be - and that ALL Muslims should believe in "Khalifa", which is spelled as he pronounced it.

It seems he also doesn't know what all the fuss is about. ;)


Gabby. Patronizing and Condescending language in calling someone Dear, as you did. Now makes me, and possibly many others begin to question, and become suspect in explaining your feelings about respecting Ahmadinnerjacket. The GAY denial King of Iran.

Please. Do not ever call me Dear. I am not a BARNEY FRANK fan.

Sweety darling, you complain about condescending language, but refuse to call Ahmedinejad by his name instead using infantile name calling. Grow up.

[jimnyc]

It seems he also doesn't know what all the fuss is about. ;)

Yes, he doesn't understand the fuss. He thought it was completely natural that the entire world be Muslim and Shariah rule, that this was from Allah and Muhammed. He didn't tell me this in a threatening type of manner, but matter of fact that eventually the world will be 100% Islam. He agreed with Roo about Iran, that they want a large scale war which will bring back Mahdi.

The whole thing sounds a little fucked in the head to me.

[ConHog]

Yes, he doesn't understand the fuss. He thought it was completely natural that the entire world be Muslim and Shariah rule, that this was from Allah and Muhammed. He didn't tell me this in a threatening type of manner, but matter of fact that eventually the world will be 100% Islam. He agreed with Roo about Iran, that they want a large scale war which will bring back Mahdi.

The whole thing sounds a little fucked in the head to me.

Iran is ALL bluster and saber rattling. You don't think they realize we could shut them down in a month? Now, that isn't saying they aren't crazy, b/c they are; but crazy =/= stupid. No, they will NEVER draw us into a war. That includes striking Israel, they will continue funding cowardly terrorists but NEVER confront us militarily.

[gabosaurus]

Yes, he doesn't understand the fuss. He thought it was completely natural that the entire world be Muslim and Shariah rule, that this was from Allah and Muhammed. He didn't tell me this in a threatening type of manner, but matter of fact that eventually the world will be 100% Islam. He agreed with Roo about Iran, that they want a large scale war which will bring back Mahdi.

The whole thing sounds a little fucked in the head to me.

Dude, you are arguing with a Muslim about things he knows a lot better than you do. Then you are quoting some militant Muslim and portraying his radical opinions as representative of everyone's.

The family that lives across the street from me are very peaceful Muslims. They came to the U.S. to escape radical extremism. Yet they have found that many Americans are as hateful toward Muslims as radical Muslims are toward Americans. And yet America is supposed to be a Christian nation. I told him that some Americans have the same hateful, terrorist tendencies as radical Muslims.
He also wants to know why Catholic priests molest children. When was the last time you heard of other faiths molesting the children they are entrusted to teach?

[ConHog]

Dude, you are arguing with a Muslim about things he knows a lot better than you do. Then you are quoting some militant Muslim and portraying his radical opinions as representative of everyone's.

The family that lives across the street from me are very peaceful Muslims. They came to the U.S. to escape radical extremism. Yet they have found that many Americans are as hateful toward Muslims as radical Muslims are toward Americans. And yet America is supposed to be a Christian nation. I told him that some Americans have the same hateful, terrorist tendencies as radical Muslims.
He also wants to know why Catholic priests molest children. When was the last time you heard of other faiths molesting the children they are entrusted to teach?

What's that gotta do with Islamic extremists Gabby? Surely you're not trying to correlate the two?

[jimnyc]

Dude, you are arguing with a Muslim about things he knows a lot better than you do. Then you are quoting some militant Muslim and portraying his radical opinions as representative of everyone's.

The family that lives across the street from me are very peaceful Muslims. They came to the U.S. to escape radical extremism. Yet they have found that many Americans are as hateful toward Muslims as radical Muslims are toward Americans. And yet America is supposed to be a Christian nation. I told him that some Americans have the same hateful, terrorist tendencies as radical Muslims.
He also wants to know why Catholic priests molest children. When was the last time you heard of other faiths molesting the children they are entrusted to teach?

My friend is far from a militant, and what he says is what ALL muslims learn. I defy even Jafar to say he didn't learn of Mahdi, and how Islam is considered the "Last Religion". What has Muhammed said about it? Allah? You say you read the Quran, you should know this off the top of your head. Most may think it's something that will happen peacefully, and some believe as a result of war, but the last religion was Islam and it's to be spread throughout the world. It's said that Islam is the final religion from God to the world and that Muhammed is the last prophet to the people on Earth.

[gabosaurus]

Muhammed is a prophet of God. At least that is how I understand it.

http://www.al-islami.com/islam/religion_of_peace.php


Today, many non-Muslims regard Islam as a religion that promotes violence, terrorism and war. Unfortunately, they rely in their view of Islam on the general media, which is not always accurate in reporting the news.
Before blindly accepting what the TV, radio or newspaper is reporting, one should think critically about what is being reported. Is this being reported accurately, or is it being exaggerated or even completely fabricated? Who are these people reporting the news, and do they have vested interests to report the story in a certain way, or are they completely objective and fair? Critical thinking is very important in all aspects of life, especially when it comes to accepting the media reports about important and controversial issues.

Islam is in fact a religion that promotes peace and understanding among people of all faiths, and it strongly prohibits all forms of violence and aggression against all people regardless of their faith or race.

[ConHog]

Muhammed is a prophet of God. At least that is how I understand it.

http://www.al-islami.com/islam/religion_of_peace.php

Gabby, I've studies Islam some and my question is always this. If terrorists and so forth are misconstruing Islam, how are so many doing so for so long?

I mean let's look at Catholics in comparison. Okay first the IRA, they were nasty assholes every bit as bad as AQ etc , but they didn't try to justify their behavior with their religion. Only Muslims do that in noticeable numbers.

Then of course there are all the Muslims who don't participate in terrorism, but they sure celebrate anything bad happening to the US etc etc. Now , sure SOME of that is borne of sheer ignorance, but not all of it.

[Anton Chigurh]

Muhammed is a prophet of God.He's not any different really than L. Ron Hubbard, in that he created a religion.

Except Muhammad basically copied the Judeo-Christian model, storyline and characters and said, 'Here's the REAL Jesus - Allah!" and went on from there. (Creating "God" in his own image, like all religions have done.) Not alot unlike the Mormon faith, which holds jesus came to North America after he was finished in the middle east, and sung a different tune.

Would be like me re-writing Superman and making him from mars instead of Krypton, and making him evil instead of good. Really creative work, not.

But, just as believable as any other of the 100s of religions mankind has devised.

[jafar00]

The family that lives across the street from me are very peaceful Muslims. They came to the U.S. to escape radical extremism. Yet they have found that many Americans are as hateful toward Muslims as radical Muslims are toward Americans. And yet America is supposed to be a Christian nation. I told him that some Americans have the same hateful, terrorist tendencies as radical Muslims.

There are extremists everywhere but the extremists here on this forum wouldn't consider themselves extremists despite the volumes of hate and bile they post on a daily basis.

The Prophet Mohamed (saw) preached moderation. Not to go to extremes in faith whether it be extreme religious zeal or the other side rejection of faith. This is what I and millions of other Muslims practise.


My friend is far from a militant, and what he says is what ALL muslims learn. I defy even Jafar to say he didn't learn of Mahdi, and how Islam is considered the "Last Religion". What has Muhammed said about it? Allah? You say you read the Quran, you should know this off the top of your head. Most may think it's something that will happen peacefully, and some believe as a result of war, but the last religion was Islam and it's to be spread throughout the world. It's said that Islam is the final religion from God to the world and that Muhammed is the last prophet to the people on Earth.

Yes I know what is supposed to come, but I don't know when it will happen, nor is there anyone on this Earth who can do something to hasten it. The end times will come when God says so, period.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There are extremists everywhere but the extremists here on this forum wouldn't consider themselves extremists despite the volumes of hate and bile they post on a daily basis.

The Prophet Mohamed (saw) preached moderation. Not to go to extremes in faith whether it be extreme religious zeal or the other side rejection of faith. This is what I and millions of other Muslims practise.



Yes I know what is supposed to come, but I don't know when it will happen, nor is there anyone on this Earth who can do something to hasten it. The end times will come when God says so, period.

Bolded above is a damn lie! It isnt moderation to put thousands to the sword and give commandments that led to the death of millions after muhammed's death . Thats the same kind of -"moderation"- that Hitler, Stalin and Mao used ! -Tyr

[jimnyc]

Muhammed is a prophet of God. At least that is how I understand it.

http://www.al-islami.com/islam/religion_of_peace.php

Of course he was, I thought everyone understood that.

[jimnyc]

There are extremists everywhere but the extremists here on this forum wouldn't consider themselves extremists despite the volumes of hate and bile they post on a daily basis.

The Prophet Mohamed (saw) preached moderation. Not to go to extremes in faith whether it be extreme religious zeal or the other side rejection of faith. This is what I and millions of other Muslims practise.



Yes I know what is supposed to come, but I don't know when it will happen, nor is there anyone on this Earth who can do something to hasten it. The end times will come when God says so, period.

You can call members of this forum extremists but I don't see any of them killing others, or planning for their religion to be the one and only religion worldwide. Calling out the shit that happens within Islam is not being an extremist. Maybe I should rephrase and state I am speaking for myself. I know my views are solely against the evil within Islam.

But you browse over portions of peoples posts and cut out what you don't seem to want to answer. What have you been taught about Islam being the Last Religion? And is Mahdi supposed to come back? Do Muslims believe, and have been taught, that Allah professed Islam to be the Last Religion and therefore the religion is a gift to the people? Do you believe that Islam professes itself to be the last religion, and should ultimately be the religion for the entire world? Maybe you don't, but no one can deny that this is professed to millions and millions and millions - and how many follow it and believe it?


In Islamic eschatology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_eschatology), the Mahdi (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): مهدي‎ / ISO 233 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_233): mahdī / English: Guided One) is the prophesied redeemer of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) who will rule for seven, nine or nineteen years- (according to various interpretations)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi#cite_note-Muslim_World_2004_p.421-0) before the Day of Judgment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Last_Judgment) (yawm al-qiyamah / literally, the Day of Resurrection)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi#cite_note-Glasse-1) and will rid the world of wrongdoing, injustice and tyranny.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi#cite_note-momen-2)

In Shia Islam, the belief in the Mahdi is a "central religious idea" and closely related as the Twelfth Imam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Imams), Muhammad al-Mahdi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi), whose return from occultation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occultation) is deemed analogous with the coming of the Mahdi.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi#cite_note-Brit-3)
In Sunni traditions, there are several hadith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith) referring to the Mahdi.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi#cite_note-4)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

[jimnyc]

It appears Iran thinks similarly, as for the end of times and the 12th Imam.... This from the Supreme Leader, who wields more power in Iran than anyone else, including their President.


Iran’s supreme leader, for the first time, is telling his nation that it must prepare for war and “the end of times” as it continues to develop nuclear weapons.

State-owned media outlets, in a coordinated effort, all ran a similar story Friday highlighting Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s message on the coming of the last Islamic messiah.

Until now, the Iranian media would mostly quote clerics from seminaries on the issue of the last Islamic messiah to avoid the regime being labeled messianic. However, the wide publication of Khamenei’s statements on a need to prepare for the end of times as it confronts the West over its illicit nuclear program is alarming to Western leaders.

“The issue of Imam Mahdi is of utmost importance, and his reappearance has been clearly stated in our holy religion of Islam,” Khamenei said. We must study and remind ourselves of the end of times and Imam Mahdi’s era. … We must prepare the environment for the coming so that the great leader will come.”

Shiite theology holds that great wars must engulf the Earth, during which one-third of the world’s population will die in the fighting and another third from hunger, lawlessness and havoc. Israel is to be destroyed, and only then will the 12th imam, Mahdi, reappear and kill all the infidels, raising the flag of Islam in all corners of the world.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/iran-leader-we-must-prep-for-end-of-times/?cat_orig=world

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It appears Iran thinks similarly, as for the end of times and the 12th Imam.... This from the Supreme Leader, who wields more power in Iran than anyone else, including their President.



http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/iran-leader-we-must-prep-for-end-of-times/?cat_orig=world

The most likely cause for a future World War Three is Islam.. How about we just sit on our asses until they get nukes and are prepared to start that great war? I mean their defenders and they will thank you for being so damn blindly and foolishly obliging by killing you and your entire family too! We should judge Islam by the nations that it controls and their actions there not by how muslims here in USA act and do! They want us to judge the majority by the actions of the few here. One billion muslims worldwide , how many are here being semi-peaceful? The vast majority of muslims reside outside our borders!-Tyr

[Roo]

It appears Iran thinks similarly, as for the end of times and the 12th Imam.... This from the Supreme Leader, who wields more power in Iran than anyone else, including their President.



http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/iran-leader-we-must-prep-for-end-of-times/?cat_orig=world

These apologists will simply scream "NUH-UH" and continue right along defending this "peaceful" religion.

[Roo]

There are extremists everywhere but the extremists here on this forum wouldn't consider themselves extremists despite the volumes of hate and bile they post on a daily basis.

The Prophet Mohamed (saw) preached moderation. Not to go to extremes in faith whether it be extreme religious zeal or the other side rejection of faith. This is what I and millions of other Muslims practise.



Yes I know what is supposed to come, but I don't know when it will happen, nor is there anyone on this Earth who can do something to hasten it. The end times will come when God says so, period.

Not acording to the 12'vers...they think that the ONLY thing that will bring the Imam back is chaos Jafar.

Those who deny this are nuts....and yes they are seeking the Bomb...and yes they will use it.

[jafar00]

The most likely cause for a future World War Three is Islam.. How about we just sit on our asses until they get nukes and are prepared to start that great war? I mean their defenders and they will thank you for being so damn blindly and foolishly obliging by killing you and your entire family too! We should judge Islam by the nations that it controls and their actions there not by how muslims here in USA act and do! They want us to judge the majority by the actions of the few here. One billion muslims worldwide , how many are here being semi-peaceful? The vast majority of muslims reside outside our borders!-Tyr

Tyr. Only 15% of those who call themselves Muslim are Shia, and even less of those listen to Khameini. Please don't lump us all together.

[jimnyc]

Tyr. Only 15% of those who call themselves Muslim are Shia, and even less of those listen to Khameini. Please don't lump us all together.

WHat about Madhism? Isn't that something taught to both Sunni and Shia?

[Kathianne]

Tyr. Only 15% of those who call themselves Muslim are Shia, and even less of those listen to Khameini. Please don't lump us all together.

I do not lump all Muslims together. I do however differentiate between those who want to co-exist and those that want to implement sharia law and look for world-wide Islam.

[Roo]

Tyr. Only 15% of those who call themselves Muslim are Shia, and even less of those listen to Khameini. Please don't lump us all together.

It doesn't matter how many there are, it only matters what weapons the crazy ones have.

[Kathianne]

It doesn't matter how many there are, it only matters what weapons the crazy ones have.

That's true.

[jimnyc]

I do not lump all Muslims together. I do however differentiate between those who want to co-exist and those that want to implement sharia law and look for world-wide Islam.

And I'll even be the first to admit that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, and just want to live their lives and coexist. But the percentage of those who want Shariah and see world wide Islam is higher than the naysayers admit to.

[Roo]

That's true.

People of the west have to stop thinking that EVERYONE thinks like them.....they don't.

It drives me nuts.

[red states rule]

And I'll even be the first to admit that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, and just want to live their lives and coexist. But the percentage of those who want Shariah and see world wide Islam is higher than the naysayers admit to.

and it seems to me that many of those peaceful Muslims are too scared to sepak out against those who want Shariah in fear their breathing privileges wil be taken away in the name of Allah

[Kathianne]

And I'll even be the first to admit that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, and just want to live their lives and coexist. But the percentage of those who want Shariah and see world wide Islam is higher than the naysayers admit to.I agree that most are 'peaceful' meaning non-terrorists. I'm open to being convinced of the later, but all I've read has that one of the tenets of Islam is world wide implementation of Sharia. Remember Jefferson and the Barbary Pirates? Dhimmi and tribute? Nothing has changed.

[Roo]

and it seems to me that many of those peaceful Muslims are too scared to sepak out against those who want Shariah in fear their breathing privileges wil be taken away in the name of Allah

Nope, they fear for their lives.

[red states rule]

Nope, they fear for their lives.

Eh if you lose your breathing privileges you usually lose your life as well

But perhaps they are worried about losing their head over what they say

The results are the same

[jimnyc]

I agree that most are 'peaceful' meaning non-terrorists. I'm open to being convinced of the later, but all I've read has that one of the tenets of Islam is world wide implementation of Sharia. Remember Jefferson and the Barbary Pirates? Dhimmi and tribute? Nothing has changed.

My friends are some of the nicest people you can meet, but are very matter of fact about Islam, and what is in the Quran is not only "gospel", but is to be listened to and followed by all. Like my buddy said last night, that Islam is a gift from God and is the last religion, and should be the religion for all. This is easily verified with a few simple searches. They are very non-committal when I ask what if people don't want to? What if an entire country is content being atheist, or Christian? "The Quran says...." "Muhammed said...." "Abraham said..." They'll refer to teachings and just more or less say that this is the way it was intended to be.

And I swear on anything, I asked him if he was going to cut my head off if I didn't convert, and he just laughed and said that things likely won't happen in our lifetime, laughed some more... but the fucker never said no! LOL <---- Him and I both fuck with one another like this, so fuck off! :lol:

[Kathianne]

My friends are some of the nicest people you can meet, but are very matter of fact about Islam, and what is in the Quran is not only "gospel", but is to be listened to and followed by all. Like my buddy said last night, that Islam is a gift from God and is the last religion, and should be the religion for all. This is easily verified with a few simple searches. They are very non-committal when I ask what if people don't want to? What if an entire country is content being atheist, or Christian? "The Quran says...." "Muhammed said...." "Abraham said..." They'll refer to teachings and just more or less say that this is the way it was intended to be.

And I swear on anything, I asked him if he was going to cut my head off if I didn't convert, and he just laughed and said that things likely won't happen in our lifetime, laughed some more... but the fucker never said no! LOL <---- Him and I both fuck with one another like this, so fuck off! :lol:

and it's thus that reminds some of us so much of Hitler.

Christianity, Judaism have existed with atheists and agnostics for a long time. Islam?

[jimnyc]

and it's thus that reminds some of us so much of Hitler.

Christianity, Judaism have existed with atheists and agnostics for a long time. Islam?

It's funny of you talk to any of these guys about Israel, they get HEATED about it! There is no Israel, only the occupied land of Palestine, and there is no negotiating, only every bit of the land going back to Palestine. They ain't big fans of the Jewish folk. They believe in Jesus as another prophet, but the bible is "man made" while the Quran is the word directly from God himself. They obviously defend Iraq and Afghanistan, but in respectful ways. They NEVER side against Islam, even if you give them photographic proof of a Muslim doing wrong. Then it's just a "fake" Muslim. They love America and they love our community and are decent people, but are very anti-American government. I know I'm babbling, but the point I'm trying to make is that they are very good people, and I think have peace within them, but peace or not, they simply believe Islam should be spread world wide and ultimately be one religion for all.

[Mr. P]

My friends are some of the nicest people you can meet, but are very matter of fact about Islam, and what is in the Quran is not only "gospel", but is to be listened to and followed by all. Like my buddy said last night, that Islam is a gift from God and is the last religion, and should be the religion for all. This is easily verified with a few simple searches. They are very non-committal when I ask what if people don't want to? What if an entire country is content being atheist, or Christian? "The Quran says...." "Muhammed said...." "Abraham said..." They'll refer to teachings and just more or less say that this is the way it was intended to be.

And I swear on anything, I asked him if he was going to cut my head off if I didn't convert, and he just laughed and said that things likely won't happen in our lifetime, laughed some more... but the fucker never said no! LOL <---- Him and I both fuck with one another like this, so fuck off! :lol:

Well, I donno about you folks, but I ain't goin to church 5 times a day!

[Nukeman]

Tyr. Only 15% of those who call themselves Muslim are Shia, and even less of those listen to Khameini. Please don't lump us all together.
Seems like a small number on the surface!! Islam claims to have over 1 billion followers so a little quick math means that 150,000,000 people follow Shia, you do realize that is more than MOST European countries and almost half the population of the US. So that really is not a small number of lunatics...... YOU and others on here like to point out the Christians that are crazy (West borough babtist church who have about 60 members) the numbers are not there to support your correlation...

Thats a lot of hateful teaching going on there, and you are assuming that none of the ignorant Sunni's that live in 3rd world countries aren't being fed a line of hate in the Mosque by the educated mullah...

Islam NEEDS a system put in place to STANDARDIZE the teachings in your religion otherwise its left up to the interpretation of what ever individual claims to be a leader and what ever is in their heart will soon be in the heart of the uneducated followers.....

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr. Only 15% of those who call themselves Muslim are Shia, and even less of those listen to Khameini. Please don't lump us all together.

I DO NOT CALL ALL MUSLIMS BAD. I DO CALL THOSE THAT PREACH HATE AND BELIEVE THAT ISLAM SHOULD RULE THE WORLD BAD.
For those that do also believe Sharia law and Islam should dominate all other religions to the point of destroying all other religions. Islam teaches no tolerance of other religions.-Tyr

[jafar00]

WHat about Madhism? Isn't that something taught to both Sunni and Shia?

I had to look that up but found very little. I assume you are talking about the coming of the Mahdi who will precede Jesus. He is supposed to unite the Muslims, right wrongs and bring peace. I don't see anyone in the world coming close to doing that, in fact I see just the opposite. It's not going to happen in our lifetime as far as I can tell.


I do not lump all Muslims together. I do however differentiate between those who want to co-exist and those that want to implement sharia law and look for world-wide Islam.


and it seems to me that many of those peaceful Muslims are too scared to sepak out against those who want Shariah in fear their breathing privileges wil be taken away in the name of Allah

You both talk about Sharia as being a bad thing? So why have recent elections in Islamic countries resulted in "Islamist" governments? If it's such a bad thing, why would Muslims want to live under that system of law?


I agree that most are 'peaceful' meaning non-terrorists. I'm open to being convinced of the later, but all I've read has that one of the tenets of Islam is world wide implementation of Sharia. Remember Jefferson and the Barbary Pirates? Dhimmi and tribute? Nothing has changed.

I've lived under Sharia in Egypt and Malaysia (and for a short time in Libya but the police state doesn't count as Sharia really and in Egypt, Sharia is(was?) only used for things like family law). In Malaysia, only Muslims are living under Sharia. The Christians, Hindus and Buddhists are subjected to their own laws. This is the way of Islamic society.

eg. Non muslims can go to a bar in Malaysia and sit there and drink alcohol, fornicate, and do whatever else it is that they do within a common law framework. If I were to go to a bar, even if I wasn't drinking alcohol, I could be taken to prison for a year and receive lashes from the cane as punishment. The bar would be closed down too. That's no problem for me since I don't go to bars or drink alcohol since I am a Muslim and have other ways to enjoy myself.

All that is moot though since the big conspiracy that Muslims want to "impose" sharia on everyone is false.


And I swear on anything, I asked him if he was going to cut my head off if I didn't convert, and he just laughed and said that things likely won't happen in our lifetime, laughed some more... but the fucker never said no! LOL <---- Him and I both fuck with one another like this, so fuck off! :lol:

I think he knows that you would never accept Islam. Faith cannot be forced on someone or they just become Mushrik (ask your friend about that one :)) and not a true Muslim.


Well, I donno about you folks, but I ain't goin to church 5 times a day!

2-3 of my daily prayers are done in my office. :p


Thats a lot of hateful teaching going on there, and you are assuming that none of the ignorant Sunni's that live in 3rd world countries aren't being fed a line of hate in the Mosque by the educated mullah...

I've prayed in a few 3rd world countries. I've not come across any of these Mosques where hate is preached that I keep hearing about. Quite the opposite actually.


Islam NEEDS a system put in place to STANDARDIZE the teachings in your religion otherwise its left up to the interpretation of what ever individual claims to be a leader and what ever is in their heart will soon be in the heart of the uneducated followers.....

You mean the Qur'aan, the Sunna and the 1000+ years of scholarly debate contained within the 4 schools of thought, Hanafi, Hanbali, Shafi'i and Maliki?

[aboutime]

I DO NOT CALL ALL MUSLIMS BAD. I DO CALL THOSE THAT PREACH HATE AND BELIEVE THAT ISLAM SHOULD RULE THE WORLD BAD.
For those that do also believe Sharia law and Islam should dominate all other religions to the point of destroying all other religions. Islam teaches no tolerance of other religions.-Tyr

Can't figure it out. But. For some reason. I simply cannot, and will not attempt to explain, or reason with someone like jafar who would...if given the opportunity. Happily look the other way while someone from that So-called, Religion of Peace attempted, or succeeded in Killing Americans.

Would someone like to explain why any of us are trying to reason, or even converse with such a person here?

[aboutime]

Well, I donno about you folks, but I ain't goin to church 5 times a day!

One of the worst, consistent memories I have about being in Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia prior to, and during Operation Desert Shield, and Desert Storm in 1990-91 was hearing the broadcasted Prayers several times a day, interspersed with Scud Attack Sirens.

Those Sirens seemed to be timed to always follow the Prayers being screamed across the desert, and into the cities.

[jafar00]

Can't figure it out. But. For some reason. I simply cannot, and will not attempt to explain, or reason with someone like jafar who would...if given the opportunity. Happily look the other way while someone from that So-called, Religion of Peace attempted, or succeeded in Killing Americans.

Would someone like to explain why any of us are trying to reason, or even converse with such a person here?


How dare you assume what I would or wouldn't do.

If I saw someone trying to kill Americans or anyone else who was innocent, I would be ignoring the decree in the Qur'aan to enjoin the right and forbid the wrong. I would be a bad Muslim for NOT stopping it!

[Mr. P]

How dare you assume what I would or wouldn't do.

If I saw someone trying to kill Americans or anyone else who was innocent, I would be ignoring the decree in the Qur'aan to enjoin the right and forbid the wrong. I would be a bad Muslim for NOT stopping it!

Do you realize what you just said? I don't think so.

You're saying, "IF one is innocent according to the Qur'aan, it's right. Even though it may go against the Law of society. I will NOT step in, but if it's against the Qur'aan, I will. I would be a bad Muslim for NOT enforcing the Qur'aan".

A true Freudian moment indeed. Just sayin

[gabosaurus]

Americans used to burn people alive for being "witches." Or we'd hang them for being black.
We're more civilized now. We hit them with our cars and shoot them with our legal guns. :rolleyes:

I feel sometimes our Muslim brethren get a bad rap for the things they do in the name of Allah. Especially when our countrymen are taking orders from God to drown their kids in bathtubs, cook them in microwaves, throw them out of moving car windows, slice off various appendages and bury them alive.

[ConHog]

Jafar has never said ANYTHING that leads me to believe he wishes to see Americans killed.

[jafar00]

Do you realize what you just said? I don't think so.

You're saying, "IF one is innocent according to the Qur'aan, it's right. Even though it may go against the Law of society. I will NOT step in, but if it's against the Qur'aan, I will. I would be a bad Muslim for NOT enforcing the Qur'aan".

A true Freudian moment indeed. Just sayin

You are putting words into my mouth.

[jafar00]

I feel sometimes our Muslim brethren get a bad rap for the things they do in the name of Allah. Especially when our countrymen are taking orders from God to drown their kids in bathtubs, cook them in microwaves, throw them out of moving car windows, slice off various appendages and bury them alive.

Now you are just being silly.

[DragonStryk72]

Do you realize what you just said? I don't think so.

You're saying, "IF one is innocent according to the Qur'aan, it's right. Even though it may go against the Law of society. I will NOT step in, but if it's against the Qur'aan, I will. I would be a bad Muslim for NOT enforcing the Qur'aan".

A true Freudian moment indeed. Just sayin

Do you realize how much you stretched to try make that what he said? What he said was, "Of course I will step in to defend the innocent. I am a man of God. It would defy all my core beliefs not to aid the innocent!"

You're the one imprinting things on what he said that don't actually exist, dude. Now, this likely has something to do with your mother, or your repressed sexuality (Kidding, I'm making Freud jokes here, just to be clear), but what he said and you created in your head are mutually exclusive things.

[jimnyc]

Americans used to burn people alive for being "witches." Or we'd hang them for being black.
We're more civilized now. We hit them with our cars and shoot them with our legal guns. :rolleyes:

I feel sometimes our Muslim brethren get a bad rap for the things they do in the name of Allah. Especially when our countrymen are taking orders from God to drown their kids in bathtubs, cook them in microwaves, throw them out of moving car windows, slice off various appendages and bury them alive.

The key is USED TO. And then the further examples you make are extremely few and far between, but yes, do happen. No one is saying that these atrocities don't happen elsewhere, in other countries, in other religions - just not even remotely as much, not even close, different ballparks.

[jimnyc]

I had to look that up but found very little. I assume you are talking about the coming of the Mahdi who will precede Jesus. He is supposed to unite the Muslims, right wrongs and bring peace. I don't see anyone in the world coming close to doing that, in fact I see just the opposite. It's not going to happen in our lifetime as far as I can tell.

Odd that you needed to lookup Mahdi, I thought this was something all Muslims knew about, no? I'm being serious, not a dick! I honestly thought that was something important to Muslims, like Christians believing the return of Jesus.

Anyway, I might have missed your answer previously, but what about Allah, Muhammed and Islam being the "Last Religion"? Another one that can be looked up if necessary, as it's not something I found on a nutcase site, but something relayed to me from my Muslim friends. All of them are believers in this, that everyone should eventually follow Islam, but it might not happen in our lifetime.

[jimnyc]

I think he knows that you would never accept Islam. Faith cannot be forced on someone or they just become Mushrik (ask your friend about that one :)) and not a true Muslim.

Ok, I wrote this down and asked a few of my buddies with coffee this morning! They referred to it as something else (shrik or shirk?) and said this applies to those who are non-believers of Islam. While they are friendly about it, they made it clear that this is not good, and that I should in fact be a believer, and that this is a "crime" in Islam.

Why would not believing be a crime? And since we're on the subject, what about apostasy in Islam? There are many places where Muslims will be put to death if they try to leave the faith. What is the official stance in Islam for those that want to leave Islam?

[DragonStryk72]

Ok, I wrote this down and asked a few of my buddies with coffee this morning! They referred to it as something else (shrik or shirk?) and said this applies to those who are non-believers of Islam. While they are friendly about it, they made it clear that this is not good, and that I should in fact be a believer, and that this is a "crime" in Islam.

Why would not believing be a crime? And since we're on the subject, what about apostasy in Islam? There are many places where Muslims will be put to death if they try to leave the faith. What is the official stance in Islam for those that want to leave Islam?

lol, and you wonder why they have such differing interpretations of the Quran? Even common terms have different ways that they're said. According to the Bible, if you don't believe in Christ as Savior and Son of God, you're doomed to hell. Were we in a Christian Theocracy, it would be a crime as well. Heck, if you weren't Hebrew in Leviticus, you were fucked.

This is what you're not getting, Jim. There is no "official" stance in Islam, because there is no central Islam. So basically, every dictator out in the ME can jump up and enforce his interpretation of the Quran as the law of the land, and there's no religious authority to gainsay him. This, again, is an up swing to the Vatican, is that they can take an official stance, and enforce rulings.

[jimnyc]

lol, and you wonder why they have such differing interpretations of the Quran? Even common terms have different ways that they're said. According to the Bible, if you don't believe in Christ as Savior and Son of God, you're doomed to hell. Were we in a Christian Theocracy, it would be a crime as well. Heck, if you weren't Hebrew in Leviticus, you were fucked.

This is what you're not getting, Jim. There is no "official" stance in Islam, because there is no central Islam. So basically, every dictator out in the ME can jump up and enforce his interpretation of the Quran as the law of the land, and there's no religious authority to gainsay him. This, again, is an up swing to the Vatican, is that they can take an official stance, and enforce rulings.

I get that and have said almost the same many times. I've also acknowledged that the majority of Islam is peaceful. What you're not getting is, that regardless of that, and regardless of comparisons, an inordinate amount of abuse to women still happens in Islam as does total violence as does terrorism. Comparing Islam to bad things in Christianity is no different than Obama obfuscating the issue by comparing things to George Bush. How about Obama sticks to the topic and admits what he does own and control instead of deflecting? Same here, I fully acknowledge the many problems in the past, and currently, within Christianity. I know that no country and no religion is perfect, far from it. BUT, NONE of that changes the fact that Islam is the world leader in terrorism TODAY. Islam is the world leader in abuse of women TODAY. If someone wants to point out the violence towards women in America, or Americans that have become terrorists, have at it, but it still won't change the things that I'm bringing up in this thread.

The things I have posted are facts, even if in the minority. I feel like this is the same as when I post statistics about crime in the black community. You're not allowed to point out those facts, at least not without being a racist.

[revelarts]

lol, and you wonder why they have such differing interpretations of the Quran? Even common terms have different ways that they're said. According to the Bible, if you don't believe in Christ as Savior and Son of God, you're doomed to hell. Were we in a Christian Theocracy, it would be a crime as well. Heck, if you weren't Hebrew in Leviticus, you were fucked.

In old Christendom even if you weren't the right kind of christian you were in a heap o trouble. But it's an unbiblical practice to kill unbelievers.
but in OT Judea, if you were a traveler in Israel you could believe what you wanted, just don't spread that stuff to the locals. And Judism never advocated killing unbelievers out side of the boarders of Israel for "unbelief"



This is what you're not getting, Jim. There is no "official" stance in Islam, because there is no central Islam. So basically, every dictator out in the ME can jump up and enforce his interpretation of the Quran as the law of the land, and there's no religious authority to gainsay him. This, again, is an up swing to the Vatican, is that they can take an official stance, and enforce rulings.

there some truth to that but from what I understand there are some broad general gruops of Muslims beleifs simlar to chriatiany.

like in Christianity you have people from several denominations who think the Bible is the word of God like FOR REAL.
While you have another brand of Christian that think the Yes sure the Bible is the word of God written by men of course, so take parts with a grain of salt, a modern science and modern thought and you've got a good thing.

there are differeces with those groups too.

From my understanding isam has a similar division but the larger group tend to lean toward believing the Koran and other teachings are from Allah FOR REAL. though some seems to saysmuch of the literalism that the Alquida and other terrorist would promote is off base.

however many would tell you that Allah means for Sharia to cover the earth. that even if you are christian or a jew you should be living under Sharia law. "Gods" law for the earth. it's a very political piece of the teaching of Islam.

Many Muslims don't like Shrai much either but they probably wouldn't be part of the group of muslims that take the Koran quite as seriously.

[jimnyc]

Oh man, I just talked to 2 of my friends for awhile about "Mushrik" aka "Shirk" - and they told me I was going to burn in hell! They still love me they said, but the facts are the facts, and that so long as I believe Jesus was anything other than man, a Prophet, I will burn in hell. He said those that believe Jesus is God, or the Son of God, will burn in hell. This also applies to all Jewish people and all Atheists. I'm bummed now.

[gabosaurus]

Now you are just being silly.

I think this thread has gotten REALLY silly. Certainly people are going above and beyond in their desire to prove their point. Even if they don't have one.
I should never participate in religious disagreements. It's like inviting the Spanish Inquisition.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7WJXHY2OXGE" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[aboutime]

Oh man, I just talked to 2 of my friends for awhile about "Mushrik" aka "Shirk" - and they told me I was going to burn in hell! They still love me they said, but the facts are the facts, and that so long as I believe Jesus was anything other than man, a Prophet, I will burn in hell. He said those that believe Jesus is God, or the Son of God, will burn in hell. This also applies to all Jewish people and all Atheists. I'm bummed now.


Looks like there's gonna be a lot of us Burning in Hell. But, before I do. I'll keep one comical thought in mind as I begin to SWEAT, ROAST, and COOK.

I'll remember how those who told me I would burn in Hell, will be there ahead of me. Trying to figure out where they went wrong as that 72 Year Old Virgin...and Not 72 Virgins were waiting for them with a huge case of SWINE FLU!

[jimnyc]

I think this thread has gotten REALLY silly.

Yet not silly enough to stop you from trolling in it? You're free to post in threads you don't find silly, and bypass those you do.

[gabosaurus]

You're free to post in threads you don't find silly, and bypass those you do.

So you don't want me to post in any thread you post in? :p

[jafar00]

Odd that you needed to lookup Mahdi, I thought this was something all Muslims knew about, no? I'm being serious, not a dick! I honestly thought that was something important to Muslims, like Christians believing the return of Jesus.

I've just never heard the term "Mahdism". Of course I know about the Mahdi.


Oh man, I just talked to 2 of my friends for awhile about "Mushrik" aka "Shirk" - and they told me I was going to burn in hell! They still love me they said, but the facts are the facts, and that so long as I believe Jesus was anything other than man, a Prophet, I will burn in hell. He said those that believe Jesus is God, or the Son of God, will burn in hell. This also applies to all Jewish people and all Atheists. I'm bummed now.

Yes, but there is hope.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

All you have to do is forget about this crazy concept that one of the most beloved of God's Prophets was a human incarnation of God, or his son, or is a ghost. You believe in God, and if you do good deeds, and since one of God's names in Islam is Al Ghaffar (The Forgiver), you may have no need to fear eternal damnation :)

[jimnyc]

So you don't want me to post in any thread you post in? :p

I may not be a nice person, and I might be irritating because of my passion on certain subjects, but I don't troll threads and I try and stay on topic, or where the topic has steered to. Coming into a thread simply to tell everyone you think the thread is silly, is silly.

[Kathianne]

I've just never heard the term "Mahdism". Of course I know about the Mahdi.



Yes, but there is hope.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

All you have to do is forget about this crazy concept that one of the most beloved of God's Prophets was a human incarnation of God, or his son, or is a ghost. You believe in God, and if you do good deeds, and since one of God's names in Islam is Al Ghaffar (The Forgiver), you may have no need to fear eternal damnation :)

Basically saying 'monotheists' will be saved by 'their God.' That seems to me that still in Islam, Christians and Jews aren't covered by the followers of Allah. We get 'points' for mono God, but since we're not linked into Muhammad, we're screwed with Muslims? Afterlife though, might be ok. We're still 'dhimmi.'

[jimnyc]

I've just never heard the term "Mahdism". Of course I know about the Mahdi.

Fair enough. It is Mahdi of course, but the term "Mahdism" came about due to conflicting beliefs amongst Sunni and Shia for example.


Yes, but there is hope.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

All you have to do is forget about this crazy concept that one of the most beloved of God's Prophets was a human incarnation of God, or his son, or is a ghost. You believe in God, and if you do good deeds, and since one of God's names in Islam is Al Ghaffar (The Forgiver), you may have no need to fear eternal damnation :)

Hmmmm..... So if I deny my own learning about Jesus, and choose to believe he is 'only' a prophet, and believe in God, I'll be OK and no fear of burning in hell? Do I have any chance at all if I continue my beliefs about Jesus?

[gabosaurus]

I may not be a nice person, and I might be irritating because of my passion on certain subjects, but I don't troll threads and I try and stay on topic, or where the topic has steered to. Coming into a thread simply to tell everyone you think the thread is silly, is silly.

You are a nice person. One of the nicest I know.
Your passion gets you into trouble sometimes because you never back down, even if you are wrong.
What you call "trolling" is also known as "offering a contrary viewpoint."
When the topic has veered way off target, it often becomes silly.
You need to remember that this is a message board. Which occasionally becomes inflammatory. Sometimes you have to chill out.

[jimnyc]

You are a nice person. One of the nicest I know.
Your passion gets you into trouble sometimes because you never back down, even if you are wrong.
What you call "trolling" is also known as "offering a contrary viewpoint."
When the topic has veered way off target, it often becomes silly.
You need to remember that this is a message board. Which occasionally becomes inflammatory. Sometimes you have to chill out.

I am not a nice person, and you know it, so stop trying to suck up.

I'm willing to back down IF I truly believe I'm wrong. I'll bet I've admitted I was wrong, and apologized to people on this board, more than any other here. Of course that means I had more to apologize for, but I'm not above it.

You weren't offering a different viewpoint. You didn't like my stance and persistent comments and questions, so you labeled the thread silly. And even if it does go to that level, it's still silly to enter a thread to declare it as so. I know things can get heated, but I don't see that happening here. I see, myself anyway, as being involved in a thread where some are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum on the subject. But I don't see anger in this thread.

[gabosaurus]

You are a nice person. I bet you would be ever nicer if you got some boobies every once in a while.

[Roo]

So you don't want me to post in any thread you post in? :p

Well considering you haven't a single clue as what you are talking about I'd think you'd try and not make yourself look to silly....but alas...you look just plain ignorant....but them moral equivalency makes everyone using it look that way.

[revelarts]

I've just never heard the term "Mahdism". Of course I know about the Mahdi.
Yes, but there is hope.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

All you have to do is forget about this crazy concept that one of the most beloved of God's Prophets was a human incarnation of God, or his son, or is a ghost. You believe in God, and if you do good deeds, and since one of God's names in Islam is Al Ghaffar (The Forgiver), you may have no need to fear eternal damnation :)

Jafar,
I believe in God as well.
the passage you Quote is very interesting, it's similar to a few passages in the Bible.

i've got a question for you, the passage says believe and do good works.
Is there anyway to know what kind or HOW MUCH good work you have to do to get a reward and escape eternal damnation?

[Roo]

I've just never heard the term "Mahdism". Of course I know about the Mahdi.



Yes, but there is hope.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (2:62)

All you have to do is forget about this crazy concept that one of the most beloved of God's Prophets was a human incarnation of God, or his son, or is a ghost. You believe in God, and if you do good deeds, and since one of God's names in Islam is Al Ghaffar (The Forgiver), you may have no need to fear eternal damnation :)

There is nothing to indicate you knew anything of the Mahdi until you were asked at least 10 times.....just stop pretending.

[jafar00]

Jafar,
I believe in God as well.
the passage you Quote is very interesting, it's similar to a few passages in the Bible.

i've got a question for you, the passage says believe and do good works.
Is there anyway to know what kind or HOW MUCH good work you have to do to get a reward and escape eternal damnation?

Well, good deeds are worth more than bad ones.

There is a quote from a hadith that makes one think before one acts and it goes along the lines of...

If you intend to do a good deed and actually do it, you are rewarded with having performed between 10 and 7000 or more good deeds
If you intend to do a good deed but don't actually do it, you are rewarded with having performed 1 good deed
If you intend to do a bad deed but don't actually do it, 1 bad deed is recorded against you
If you intend to do a good deed and actually do it, 1 bad deed is recorded against you.

Good deeds are worth more than bad deeds and one good deed can wipe out many bad deeds.

There is another story where a prostitute (who has performed many bad deeds) was sitting by a well when a thirsty dog came along. All other people ignored the thirsty dog,l except the prostitute who took off her shoe, filled it with water from the well and gave it to the thirsty dog. For this one good deed, God forgave her and she earned a place in paradise.

So, while it is totally possible for you to be forgiven and enter paradise but not be a Muslim, it is not assured.

Intention is everything and only God knows what is concealed in your heart.

[revelarts]

Well, good deeds are worth more than bad ones.

There is a quote from a hadith that makes one think before one acts and it goes along the lines of...

If you intend to do a good deed and actually do it, you are rewarded with having performed between 10 and 7000 or more good deeds
If you intend to do a good deed but don't actually do it, you are rewarded with having performed 1 good deed
If you intend to do a bad deed but don't actually do it, 1 bad deed is recorded against you
If you intend to do a good deed and actually do it, 1 bad deed is recorded against you.

Good deeds are worth more than bad deeds and one good deed can wipe out many bad deeds.

There is another story where a prostitute (who has performed many bad deeds) was sitting by a well when a thirsty dog came along. All other people ignored the thirsty dog,l except the prostitute who took off her shoe, filled it with water from the well and gave it to the thirsty dog. For this one good deed, God forgave her and she earned a place in paradise.

So, while it is totally possible for you to be forgiven and enter paradise but not be a Muslim, it is not assured.

Intention is everything and only God knows what is concealed in your heart.
Ahh,
Both of those stories are from the Hadith?
is the Hadith considered reliable? Or part of what you consider God's word or is it more like respected tradition?

[Gaffer]

Have you ever been to a Muslim hospital, heard a Muslim orchestra, seen a Muslim band march in a parade, witnessed a Muslim charity, shaken hands with a Muslim Boy Scout or Girl Scout, seen a Muslim Candy Striper. ???? I haven't either.

[jafar00]

Have you ever been to a Muslim hospital,

You wouldn't even have modern hospitals if Muslims in Baghdad and Cairo hadn't invented the idea of a place where the sick could be treated with medicine. All you had before that were sanatoriums attached to temples where they just prayed for you to get better or places where you were sent to die like leper colonies.


heard a Muslim orchestra,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGHpBOt5sE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx10yERKNtY

Now you have....


seen a Muslim band march in a parade,

That's an American cultural thing. Do the street musicians in the link above count?


witnessed a Muslim charity,

http://www.ifrc.org/
http://www.muslimaid.org (http://www.muslimaid.org/)
http://www.hidaya.org/?gclid=CP_cppbWlbECFeuTpgodwizkhw
http://www.muslimhands.org (http://www.muslimhands.org/)
http://www.islamic-relief.org.uk/

Charity is one of the pillars of Islam.


shaken hands with a Muslim Boy Scout or Girl Scout,

Again, an American cultural thing. I did however find something which may assist you in your quest to find a Muslim boy or girl scout to shake hands with.
http://www.islamicscouting.org/


seen a Muslim Candy Striper. ????

Oh, but Muslims make much much more than just striped candy.
Check out this short video I made in an Egyptian sweet shop in Ramadan. Oh, and they do have striped candies at the back....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a4qnAgvEoE


I haven't either.

You obviously need to get out more.

[jafar00]

Ahh,
Both of those stories are from the Hadith?
is the Hadith considered reliable? Or part of what you consider God's word or is it more like respected tradition?

Yes they are from hadith and stuck in my mind because I first heard them when sitting in on lectures by a Sheikh in London and I have heard them several times in different mosques in different countries.

[Kathianne]

You wouldn't even have modern hospitals if Muslims in Baghdad and Cairo hadn't invented the idea of a place where the sick could be treated with medicine. All you had before that were sanatoriums attached to temples where they just prayed for you to get better or places where you were sent to die like leper colonies.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGHpBOt5sE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx10yERKNtY

Now you have....



That's an American cultural thing. Do the street musicians in the link above count?



http://www.ifrc.org/
http://www.muslimaid.org (http://www.muslimaid.org/)
http://www.hidaya.org/?gclid=CP_cppbWlbECFeuTpgodwizkhw
http://www.muslimhands.org (http://www.muslimhands.org/)
http://www.islamic-relief.org.uk/

Charity is one of the pillars of Islam.



Again, an American cultural thing. I did however find something which may assist you in your quest to find a Muslim boy or girl scout to shake hands with.
http://www.islamicscouting.org/



Oh, but Muslims make much much more than just striped candy.
Check out this short video I made in an Egyptian sweet shop in Ramadan. Oh, and they do have striped candies at the back....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a4qnAgvEoE



You obviously need to get out more.

So I listem,

[Kathianne]

You wouldn't even have modern hospitals if Muslims in Baghdad and Cairo hadn't invented the idea of a place where the sick could be treated with medicine. All you had before that were sanatoriums attached to temples where they just prayed for you to get better or places where you were sent to die like leper colonies.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPGHpBOt5sE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx10yERKNtY

Now you have....



That's an American cultural thing. Do the street musicians in the link above count?



http://www.ifrc.org/
http://www.muslimaid.org (http://www.muslimaid.org/)
http://www.hidaya.org/?gclid=CP_cppbWlbECFeuTpgodwizkhw
http://www.muslimhands.org (http://www.muslimhands.org/)
http://www.islamic-relief.org.uk/

Charity is one of the pillars of Islam.



Again, an American cultural thing. I did however find something which may assist you in your quest to find a Muslim boy or girl scout to shake hands with.
http://www.islamicscouting.org/



Oh, but Muslims make much much more than just striped candy.
Check out this short video I made in an Egyptian sweet shop in Ramadan. Oh, and they do have striped candies at the back....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a4qnAgvEoE



You obviously need to get out more.

So I listem, what is it you wish I learn? i
That an Islamic orchestra is a willing partipant in whining and threats against others.

[jafar00]

So I listem, what is it you wish I learn? i
That an Islamic orchestra is a willing partipant in whining and threats against others.

Exactly how do you find Umm Kulthum threatening?

[revelarts]

Well, good deeds are worth more than bad ones.

There is a quote from a hadith that makes one think before one acts and it goes along the lines of...

If you intend to do a good deed and actually do it, you are rewarded with having performed between 10 and 7000 or more good deeds
If you intend to do a good deed but don't actually do it, you are rewarded with having performed 1 good deed
If you intend to do a bad deed but don't actually do it, 1 bad deed is recorded against you
If you intend to do a good deed and actually do it, 1 bad deed is recorded against you.

Good deeds are worth more than bad deeds and one good deed can wipe out many bad deeds.

There is another story where a prostitute (who has performed many bad deeds) was sitting by a well when a thirsty dog came along. All other people ignored the thirsty dog,l except the prostitute who took off her shoe, filled it with water from the well and gave it to the thirsty dog. For this one good deed, God forgave her and she earned a place in paradise.

So, while it is totally possible for you to be forgiven and enter paradise but not be a Muslim, it is not assured.

Intention is everything and only God knows what is concealed in your heart.


Yes they are from hadith and stuck in my mind because I first heard them when sitting in on lectures by a Sheikh in London and I have heard them several times in different mosques in different countries.


NOw here's another difference in Islam and Christianity -at least an old and strong core of it's teaching-

here's a passage from the new testament the apostle Paul
"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9
not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephisians

the prophet John the baptist
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming to him and said, Look! There is the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29

Jesus speaking
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 6


Basically the new testament and old testament say that we need a savoir. that our good works are not enough to be considered clean in the sight of God. God commanded Moses that the people need sacrifices for their sins and the priest to stand between the holy God and the people. John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus was the "lamb" that takes AWAY the sins if the world. The final sacrifice. The new testament is clear that our good works DO NOT out weight our bad works and can never do so. Jesus said if our righteousness does not surpass those of the Scribes and religious leaders of the day in their meticulous adherence to the laws of Moses you could not have eternal life.
But that Salvation is a Gift, not earned, But accepted by faith. Any Good works after accepting the gift are done as the right and natural thing to do in thanksgiving and obedience to God who we understand loves us dearly.

[revelarts]

Also from the new testament
Galatians


5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=KJV;NIV#fen-NIV-29115g)] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Jesus in Luke 18


9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” ...

and Jesus in Luke 23



... 35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”
36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”
38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” ....



not much time for any good works when your hanging on a cross, but there is time to trust in the mercy of God and believe in his Savior.

Acts 16: 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved —you and your household.”