So much for the electric car

[red states rule]

Given the fact millions will not have power in the middle of a heat wave, will libs and the enviro wackos back off on pushing the electric car as the replacement for gas powered cars?




WASHINGTON — Millions of people in a swath of states along the East Coast and farther west went into a third sweltering day without power Monday after a round of summer storms that killed more than a dozen people.
The outages left many to contend with stifling homes and spoiled food over the weekend as temperatures approached or exceeded 100 degrees.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/power-outages-for-millions-in-mid-atlantic-could-last-days-as-sweltering-heat-persists/2012/07/01/gJQA6sa2GW_story.html




I wonder if someone will ask Sec Chu




Energy Secretary Steven Chu wants the U.S. to become a global leader of affordable electric vehicles, starting with a five-passenger plug-in hybrid where the extra cost is paid back within five years.

The goal is to produce and sell unsubsidized plug-in electric vehicles within 10 years that are comparable in cost with conventional vehicles.

The "EV Everywhere Grand Challenge" was announced by President Obama in March and the Department of Energy is holding a series of workshops across the country to brainstorm and inspire the dramatic advances needed in batteries, power electronics, motors, lightweight materials and fast-charging infrastructure technology to make it a reality.

Chu was in Dearborn, Mich., for one of the workshops designed to recruit scientists, engineers and businesses so U.S. companies become the first in the world to produce affordable and convenient plug-ins for the average American family.

Today electric vehicles with a range of 200 miles, such as the Tesla Roadster, are too expensive. Even the mass-market Nissan Leaf at $36,050 (not counting the $7,500 tax credit) has a payback period of seven years at $4 a gallon, according to Edmunds.com.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/06/energy-secy-us--must-lead-in-affordable-electric-cars/1#.T-8HCnCSWbI

[aboutime]

Kinda looks like the Global Warming, Liberal, Do or Die crowd is now finding out. Their wonderful Electric, Green Cars aren't worth the Energy in a Nine Volt Battery by EVERREADY when their GLOBAL WARMING causes power outages for Days, or Weeks.

You'd think an AL GORE kind of thinker would come up with an instant answer to such GRID problems, where it becomes Impossible to RE-CHARGE a VOLT, or a Nice Blue Prius.

Time for some Resourceful Liberal Al Gorian to step forward with a STATE-TO-STATE extension cord that can stretch from SEA to SHINING SEA????

Ya think???

[red state]

We will NEVER get off of using oil. Look at the technology we've created in the last 120 years +. In all that time, we quickly retired STEAM but we have yet to find an alternative to oil. Like guns, we will be riding on OIL for another 100 years. You simply can't better a "good" thing and guns and gasoline is what makes the world go round. The sooner these NUTS learn that, the better we'll all be.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Give obama another term so he can issue an Executive order that one must purchase a car stamp if one buys a non-hybrid car! No problem because the stamp is only 50 dollars but the tax is on the stamp is 5,000 dollars! He doesnt need Congress for this as he proved with his dream act amnesty birthed by way of an Executive order- a reality already! An Executive order that will cost taxpayers billions and make the job search for millions of natural born citizens much much harder! See how many buy electric cars then to avoid the not a penalty but a Roberts's sanctioned TAX. Just another TAX for not buying something! High TAX on tea be damned I say. TAXING on products or services not bought shot that all to hell IMO! Roberts gave unlimited power to TAX and did not limit the Commerce Clause in anyway, for his words about the Commerce clause were dicta , not having any legal force from SCOTUS.
GOD BLESS US ALL FOR WE ARE NOW SHAFTED BOTH COMING AND GOING!-Tyr

[sundaydriver]

The people that own these cars have disposable income to afford a 2nd or 3rd car to run errands with and are not upset about the mileage limitations for local driving. Meaning that these enviro whacko's as referred to by the OP have enough income, common sense, and experience of outages to have a gasoline powered generator as myself and just about every homeowner I know have for emergencies!

[red state]

Spot on Tyr!!!

I keep hearing BIG BIRTHA (the fist lady) and all the Obama's little minions talk about SUV's, 4x4's and work trucks in general YET they will never say anything about luxury cars that get the same or worse gas mileage. What is funny to me is how they can't even plan a trip without taking two HUGE jets....even if they are only going to be 30 min apart in departure time! Yep, this guy is a cross between King George & Louise XVI cuz and Mrs. BAD ODOR is definitely a Mary Antoinette'. The "occupier" is signing our rights/freedoms away at every stroke of his pens. History...funny thing about history is that it usually repeats itself.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Spot on Tyr!!!

I keep hearing BIG BIRTHA (the fist lady) and all the Obama's little minions talk about SUV's, 4x4's and work trucks in general YET they will never say anything about luxury cars that get the same or worse gas mileage. What is funny to me is how they can't even plan a trip without taking two HUGE jets....even if they are only going to be 30 min apart in departure time! Yep, this guy is a cross between King George & Louise XVI cuz and Mrs. BAD ODOR is definitely a Mary Antoinette'. The "occupier" is signing our rights/freedoms away at every stroke of his pens. History...funny thing about history is that it usually repeats itself.

Obama ,the sold out dem party and Roberts prove that " the pen is mightier than the words" (not sword), the words written in the CONSTITUTION! Roberts chose politics over virtue, politics over integrity and politics over honor. He did so by choosing political considerations over the Constitution.. Why does a man betray everything he had formally believed in and even voted for? In this case I believe it was to not become an outcast. For such was threatened by obama, dems, media and Washington elite. I'd myself would chose death before selling out so cheaply. Maybe I could and would excuse a man doing so to save the life of his child but anything less than that is total self interest bullshat to me! Roberts be damned to hell say I...-Tyr

[DragonStryk72]

The people that own these cars have disposable income to afford a 2nd or 3rd car to run errands with and are not upset about the mileage limitations for local driving. Meaning that these enviro whacko's as referred to by the OP have enough income, common sense, and experience of outages to have a gasoline powered generator as myself and just about every homeowner I know have for emergencies!

There is that, but as well, a lot of our problems with power come from an overabundance of government regulations on the power companies. For instance, there really isn't any competition in the market, an act that by itself is just short sighted as hell, but then we doubled down by making it so that our power supplies are rather limited.

We want off oil, but we could switch to far cleaner nuclear energy, and get rid of the various gas and coal plants, but no, we have to hear from the hysterical folks who lose their shit completely when you mention nuclear energy, especially after the disaster in Japan. Here's how you prevent that from happening: Don't build it on a fault line.

As well, we could finish the conversion over to hybrid vehicles within a few years, but clearly, forcing people to buy health insurance was far more important than quartering our gas usage, and lowering the overall price of hybrids to make them a viable alternative. Now, if they could come up with a solar/electric hybrid, we might be able to make headway with that, assuming we could get enough of a battery life to be able to store excess solar energy for use when it isn't plugged in.

Actually, if you really wanna see gas prices lower, we could actually decide to stop taxing the living shit out of it.

[logroller]

There is that, but as well, a lot of our problems with power come from an overabundance of government regulations on the power companies. For instance, there really isn't any competition in the market, an act that by itself is just short sighted as hell, but then we doubled down by making it so that our power supplies are rather limited.

We want off oil, but we could switch to far cleaner nuclear energy, and get rid of the various gas and coal plants, but no, we have to hear from the hysterical folks who lose their shit completely when you mention nuclear energy, especially after the disaster in Japan. Here's how you prevent that from happening: Don't build it on a fault line.

As well, we could finish the conversion over to hybrid vehicles within a few years, but clearly, forcing people to buy health insurance was far more important than quartering our gas usage, and lowering the overall price of hybrids to make them a viable alternative. Now, if they could come up with a solar/electric hybrid, we might be able to make headway with that, assuming we could get enough of a battery life to be able to store excess solar energy for use when it isn't plugged in.

Actually, if you really wanna see gas prices lower, we could actually decide to stop taxing the living shit out of it.

I won't try to make a case for regulations not bing burdensome; they are! However, there are cost which the free markets fail to cover. Pollution and it's effects at classic examples. Despite that, there are better mechanisms being explored; we have for nearly forty years been experimenting with lesser regulatory control models, eg tradable permits; with promising results, but far from perfect still.
As for nuke power, there are a number of issues at work, both technological and political. One is the need a lot of water for cooling; can't hardly get away from large bodies of water, and large bodies of water offer other economic uses which could be threatened by nuclear accidents(which do happen). That need combined with the fault zone issue(which is difficult to ascertain with absolute certainty) and there is an extremely limited number of ideal locations. Then there's the waste issue. Of course this is as political as it is technological in nature. Breeder reactors can eliminate much of the waste fuel, but seein as how this also creates weapons grade plutonium, it raises many concerns regarding both the intrinsic safety of such operations and national security. Then there's the disposal of wearable mechanics, as we see at San Onofre currently, where failures by design and accident create additional waste and unforeseen challenges. Absent regulations, well, call me cynic, but I think a safety breach or small scale accident would be swept under the rug far more easily.
Now petroleum fuels are ssimply amazing; no doubt about it. Unfortunately, they are limited in their time of renewal. This only makes sense though; I remember reading somewhere that a single gallon of gas contains the same amount of energy as the amount of solar energy absorbed by a full grown tree fern in 7 years; and that doesn't factor in the efficiency of conversion. Biofuels offer some solace, but that use comes at a loss of some other opportunity, like food. Politically, I see this as a waiting game. Slow domestic production, import more and let the other guy use all his up. Then we have an advantage in the long run. Oil companties understand this perfectly; of course they want to drill more too, so as to have more in inventory as staked claims which they can leverage into capital advantage. But that doesn't mean they will flood the market to undermine their price point, profits and capital ability to explore more difficult to extract resources. as for gas tax; people still buy gas regardless of the cost, it's inelastic. Until people adapt to lesser use, taxes will remain high.

[DragonStryk72]

I won't try to make a case for regulations not bing burdensome; they are! However, there are cost which the free markets fail to cover. Pollution and it's effects at classic examples. Despite that, there are better mechanisms being explored; we have for nearly forty years been experimenting with lesser regulatory control models, eg tradable permits; with promising results, but far from perfect still.

However, there is still no direct competition between power companies. For instance, up here Niagara Mohawk is the only power source unless you want to spring for solar cells, but you still end up needing some power from them during the winter months. So the power industry has no stock in creating more efficient models, since really, why bother?



As for nuke power, there are a number of issues at work, both technological and political. One is the need a lot of water for cooling; can't hardly get away from large bodies of water, and large bodies of water offer other economic uses which could be threatened by nuclear accidents(which do happen). That need combined with the fault zone issue(which is difficult to ascertain with absolute certainty) and there is an extremely limited number of ideal locations. Then there's the waste issue. Of course this is as political as it is technological in nature. Breeder reactors can eliminate much of the waste fuel, but seein as how this also creates weapons grade plutonium, it raises many concerns regarding both the intrinsic safety of such operations and national security. Then there's the disposal of wearable mechanics, as we see at San Onofre currently, where failures by design and accident create additional waste and unforeseen challenges. Absent regulations, well, call me cynic, but I think a safety breach or small scale accident would be swept under the rug far more easily.

Nuclear accidents are an extreme rarity, though. If we're going to start killing any idea that has even the possibility of loss, then we're fucked on a fundamental level. Of the few accidents that have occurred, they've all been due to systemic problems, not any inherent instability. For christ's sake, half our navy is nuclear powered, and despite that, not one of them has suffered a meltdown, or accident related to nuclear energy, and they're combat ships. Even in the cases of the few accidents that have occurred, only a handful were more than a hiccup, really, and of the few that were more, only one was here in the US. And it's not like we didn't come up with the regs necessary to ensure it doesn't happen again. As well, there are other reactor coolants that can, and are used in nuclear reactors. Certainly, on our ships, we use water, cause, well, yeah, they're in the water all the time, but that doesn't mean that water is the only coolant.



Now petroleum fuels are ssimply amazing; no doubt about it. Unfortunately, they are limited in their time of renewal. This only makes sense though; I remember reading somewhere that a single gallon of gas contains the same amount of energy as the amount of solar energy absorbed by a full grown tree fern in 7 years; and that doesn't factor in the efficiency of conversion. Biofuels offer some solace, but that use comes at a loss of some other opportunity, like food. Politically, I see this as a waiting game. Slow domestic production, import more and let the other guy use all his up. Then we have an advantage in the long run. Oil companties understand this perfectly; of course they want to drill more too, so as to have more in inventory as staked claims which they can leverage into capital advantage. But that doesn't mean they will flood the market to undermine their price point, profits and capital ability to explore more difficult to extract resources. as for gas tax; people still buy gas regardless of the cost, it's inelastic. Until people adapt to lesser use, taxes will remain high.

Except that what you are not considering here is the availability of the fuel source. With solar, we're not running out of sunlight anywhere in the forseeable future, regardless of how many cars are on the road. Yes, we need to drive less, or more pointedly, walk or bike more (this may also deal with that little obesity issue we seem to be having.). My main complaint, though, as it has been, is that we continue to be half in the door, and half out the door with regards to attacking the problem. Any one solution could potentially work, but we never actually implement any real changes, even just getting one of our "leaders" up there telling us to drive less, to consume less.

[ConHog]

However, there is still no direct competition between power companies. For instance, up here Niagara Mohawk is the only power source unless you want to spring for solar cells, but you still end up needing some power from them during the winter months. So the power industry has no stock in creating more efficient models, since really, why bother?




Nuclear accidents are an extreme rarity, though. If we're going to start killing any idea that has even the possibility of loss, then we're fucked on a fundamental level. Of the few accidents that have occurred, they've all been due to systemic problems, not any inherent instability. For christ's sake, half our navy is nuclear powered, and despite that, not one of them has suffered a meltdown, or accident related to nuclear energy, and they're combat ships. Even in the cases of the few accidents that have occurred, only a handful were more than a hiccup, really, and of the few that were more, only one was here in the US. And it's not like we didn't come up with the regs necessary to ensure it doesn't happen again. As well, there are other reactor coolants that can, and are used in nuclear reactors. Certainly, on our ships, we use water, cause, well, yeah, they're in the water all the time, but that doesn't mean that water is the only coolant.




Except that what you are not considering here is the availability of the fuel source. With solar, we're not running out of sunlight anywhere in the forseeable future, regardless of how many cars are on the road. Yes, we need to drive less, or more pointedly, walk or bike more (this may also deal with that little obesity issue we seem to be having.). My main complaint, though, as it has been, is that we continue to be half in the door, and half out the door with regards to attacking the problem. Any one solution could potentially work, but we never actually implement any real changes, even just getting one of our "leaders" up there telling us to drive less, to consume less.

There's probably a reason for that, I mean can you imagine the expense and the mess if every company that wanted to provide power to an area wanted to and had to be either given access to the infrastructure that another company paid for, or if they built their OWN infrastructure. I mean change power companies and a new company comes out and puts a transformer at your house?

No, a big savings could be realized if at least for the most part local power was used locally, though. I have a friend who's on our CO OPs board and he was telling e once that we produce power locally but ship our power to Tennessee and then buy power from the nuclear plant in Russelville. Just seems like an odd way of doing things.

[red states rule]

The people that own these cars have disposable income to afford a 2nd or 3rd car to run errands with and are not upset about the mileage limitations for local driving. Meaning that these enviro whacko's as referred to by the OP have enough income, common sense, and experience of outages to have a gasoline powered generator as myself and just about every homeowner I know have for emergencies!

People are lined up around the coner to spend $40,000 plus for an electric car that gets 40 miles per charge, catchs fire, and is lousy going up hills

And now after Obamacare, Pres Obama and the Dems can order US ciziens to buy a Volt or pay a tax

[logroller]

People are lined up around the coner to spend $40,000 plus for an electric car that gets 40 miles per charge, catchs fire, and is lousy going up hills

And now after Obamacare, Pres Obama and the Dems can order US ciziens to buy a Volt or pay a tax
Tesla's highend electric sedan is already sold out at over $100k. Still taking deposits on the $57k base version though. The top version touts 300 miles per charge (vs 160 miles on the base), 320hp, 302ft-lbs. They made a roadster that had no reports of battery issues and acceleration that would pin your ears back. So maybe not all electric cars are shitty.

[ConHog]

Tesla's highend electric sedan is already sold out at over $100k. Still taking deposits on the $57k base version though. The top version touts 300 miles per charge (vs 160 miles on the base), 320hp, 302ft-lbs. They made a roadster that had no reports of battery issues and acceleration that would pin your ears back. So maybe not all electric cars are shitty.

Doubtful that even the Volt is a shitty car. Ooooh big deal it has some issues. What new technology doesn't?

[DragonStryk72]

Doubtful that even the Volt is a shitty car. Ooooh big deal it has some issues. What new technology doesn't?

that reminds me, oddly enough, of the original Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). It had tons of problems, really, especially because you had to blow into the machine, then blow on the cartridge to try and get it to work. Did that stop anyone? Nope, not a bit, and it's actually now a point of nostalgia amongst gamers.

Remember when modems did their impression of the most annoying sound in the world every time you logged onto the internet? Remember when you had to log on to the internet?

Remember when you've could've clubbed someone with a cell phone, or when they were just phones? We also got over the issues of rotary dial, so I think we can deal with a few small tech issues here and there.

[ConHog]

that reminds me, oddly enough, of the original Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). It had tons of problems, really, especially because you had to blow into the machine, then blow on the cartridge to try and get it to work. Did that stop anyone? Nope, not a bit, and it's actually now a point of nostalgia amongst gamers.

Remember when modems did their impression of the most annoying sound in the world every time you logged onto the internet? Remember when you had to log on to the internet?

Remember when you've could've clubbed someone with a cell phone, or when they were just phones? We also got over the issues of rotary dial, so I think we can deal with a few small tech issues here and there.

And what REALLY gets me is the " I wouldn't own a GM" hey stupid, if you're buying a new car and the US government is part of the decision, you SHOULD buy a GM so that they have that much more money to pay back we the tax payer LOL

I would totally own a Volt if it were practical for where we live.

[fj1200]

... you SHOULD buy a GM so that they have that much more money to pay back we the tax payer LOL

No.

[ConHog]

No.

Umm YES

It just makes sense that the more sells GM has the faster they will be able to repay the USG. So if you're going to buy a vehicle anyway..........

[fj1200]

Umm YES

It just makes sense that the more sells GM has the faster they will be able to repay the USG. So if you're going to buy a vehicle anyway..........

No. To spend thousands more, arguably, to buy a car so that I get back pennies, via a government program, is not a wise economic argument.

[ConHog]

No. To spend thousands more, arguably, to buy a car so that I get back pennies, via a government program, is not a wise economic argument.

Who said spend thousands more? I'm not talking about go buy a Corvette rather than a Honda Accord to help GM out.......... LOL

If you're going to spend $30K on a vehicle though and one of your beefs is GM then declaring noway I'm spending that $30K with GM b/c they took bailout money is stupid. The wise move would be to spend that $30K with GM so they can pack back the government faster.

Of course with normal rational people this is a non issue when picking out a new vehicle anyway.

[fj1200]

Who said spend thousands more? I'm not talking about go buy a Corvette rather than a Honda Accord to help GM out.......... LOL

If you're going to spend $30K on a vehicle though and one of your beefs is GM then declaring noway I'm spending that $30K with GM b/c they took bailout money is stupid. The wise move would be to spend that $30K with GM so they can pack back the government faster.

Of course with normal rational people this is a non issue when picking out a new vehicle anyway.

I did, no justification for buying an inferior vehicle. It's not wise to spend more to get pennies, it's also not wise to enable bad government policy, and penalize Ford for example, by buying GM simply because...

[ConHog]

I did, no justification for buying an inferior vehicle. It's not wise to spend more to get pennies, it's also not wise to enable bad government policy, and penalize Ford for example, by buying GM simply because...


Link to GM building inferior vehicles on a dollar to dollar basis?

[fj1200]

Link to GM building inferior vehicles on a dollar to dollar basis?

The market has determined that they are inferior to other products. Or do I need to link you to their falling market share?

[ConHog]

The market has determined that they are inferior to other products. Or do I need to link you to their falling market share?

You know good and well that there are other factors involved in market share,and in fact one could even argue that market share wasn't even GMs biggest problem to begin with.

through the 80s,90s and even early 00s . Yes GM (as well as Ford and Chrysler) were clearly behind in terms of quality but any more that just isn't true.

Look at a Corvette, Camaro, any Cadillac product, GM trucks, several of the new Buicks, etc etc and the quality is on par with Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc etc. In the case of Caddy they compare favorably to Lexus etc etc.

The truth is that in today's marketplace there is very little difference in quality among the major auto manufacturers. hell Hyundai is beating Lexus in some JD Powers rankings.

[Thunderknuckles]

I would totally own a Volt if it were practical for where we live.
Well, this is where fj has a valid point. The market has determined, at least currently, that these vehicles are inferior.
Let's take your example of the Volt. The 2012 model gets 35mpg and can go 375 miles between battery and gas at the price of a little over $30k. In contrast, a 2012 Ford Focus gets 38-40mpg and travels more than 400 miles on gas for about $18K. Why would any budget conscious consumer buy a Volt?

Even my used 2010 focus was a better bargain at 35mpg, 400+ miles per tank for $12k.

[ConHog]

Well, this is where fj has a valid point. The market has determined, at least currently, that these vehicles are inferior.
Let's take your example of the Volt. The 2012 model gets 35mpg and can go 375 miles between battery and gas at the price of a little over $30k. In contrast, a 2012 Ford Focus gets 38-40mpg and travels more than 400 miles on gas for about $18K. Why would any budget conscious consumer buy a Volt?

Even my used 2010 focus was a better bargain at 35mpg, 400+ miles per tank for $12k.

If the Chevy Volt were the only GM product being sold, I'd concur, but it is not. Saying an entire lineup is inferior due to one vehicle is a bit silly. Would be like saying that because I don't like Ranch flavored Doritios, Frito Lay is an inferior company.

[Thunderknuckles]

Saying an entire lineup is inferior due to one vehicle is a bit silly. Would be like saying that because I don't like Ranch flavored Doritios, Frito Lay is an inferior company.
I wasn't saying that. Just talking about the Volt and electric cars in general. Was fj talking about GM ?
If so, I misunderstood.

[ConHog]

I wasn't saying that. Just talking about the Volt and electric cars in general. Was fj talking about GM ?
If so, I misunderstood.

I may be wrong , but I assumed he was because he said "their productS have been deemed inferior" I assume he wasn't talking about multiple Volts, but who knows.

[fj1200]

I may be wrong , but I assumed he was because he said "their productS have been deemed inferior" I assume he wasn't talking about multiple Volts, but who knows.

I wasn't talking about Volts. And they have been deemed so, whether it is completely valid is debatable but they have a legacy with which to contend, from quality issues and now a stigma of having to be bailed out.


Well, this is where fj has a valid point. The market has determined, at least currently, that these vehicles are inferior.

Not what I was saying but I like where you're going with that. :laugh: But you're right, the market has deemed that they are inferior but for a host of reasons and not just some early quality issues; range, cost, etc.


You know good and well that there are other factors involved in market share,and in fact one could even argue that market share wasn't even GMs biggest problem to begin with.

through the 80s,90s and even early 00s . Yes GM (as well as Ford and Chrysler) were clearly behind in terms of quality but any more that just isn't true.

Look at a Corvette, Camaro, any Cadillac product, GM trucks, several of the new Buicks, etc etc and the quality is on par with Nissan, Toyota, Honda, etc etc. In the case of Caddy they compare favorably to Lexus etc etc.

The truth is that in today's marketplace there is very little difference in quality among the major auto manufacturers. hell Hyundai is beating Lexus in some JD Powers rankings.

You're right, market share was not their problem, their problem was losing money.

Sure but they have a legacy that is not favorable to their position but the current market is valuing smaller cars over larger cars and they have especially lagged there. The point is that people want to buy a car that they want and are not going to value GM any higher so the government will recoup its investment.

[logroller]

that reminds me, oddly enough, of the original Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). It had tons of problems, really, especially because you had to blow into the machine, then blow on the cartridge to try and get it to work. Did that stop anyone? Nope, not a bit, and it's actually now a point of nostalgia amongst gamers.

Remember when modems did their impression of the most annoying sound in the world every time you logged onto the internet? Remember when you had to log on to the internet?

Remember when you've could've clubbed someone with a cell phone, or when they were just phones? We also got over the issues of rotary dial, so I think we can deal with a few small tech issues here and there.
...or when cell phones caused brain cancer...:laugh2:

[red states rule]

Tesla's highend electric sedan is already sold out at over $100k. Still taking deposits on the $57k base version though. The top version touts 300 miles per charge (vs 160 miles on the base), 320hp, 302ft-lbs. They made a roadster that had no reports of battery issues and acceleration that would pin your ears back. So maybe not all electric cars are shitty.

So 100K and 57K for an electric car while many gas powered cars can be purchased for 20K

Yea, people will crawl over each other and take out a second mortgage for the electric car

[red states rule]

And what REALLY gets me is the " I wouldn't own a GM" hey stupid, if you're buying a new car and the US government is part of the decision, you SHOULD buy a GM so that they have that much more money to pay back we the tax payer LOL

I would totally own a Volt if it were practical for where we live.

Go buy a GM car and do oyur part to payback the US taxpayer. BTW buy several since the amount owed to US taxpayer keeps going up





Government Motors: As GM shares near record low, taxpayer loss on bailout rises to $35 billion
To quote Lando Calrissian, this deal's getting worse all the time.

General Motors (GM (javascript:;)) shares fell to a fresh 2012 closing low of 19.57 on Monday. The stock hit 19 in mid-December, the lowest since the auto giant came public at $33 in November 2010 following its June 2009 bankruptcy.

Normally you might say, tough luck investors. But this is Government Motors. The Treasury still owns 26.5% of GM, or 500 million shares. Taxpayers are still out $26.4 billion in direct aid. Shares would have to hit $53 for the government to break even.

Those shares were worth about $9.8 billion as of Monday. That would leave taxpayers with a loss of $16.6 billion.

But that's not the full tally. Obama let GM keep $45 billion in past losses to offset future profits. Those are usually wiped out or slashed, along with debts, in bankruptcy. But the administration essentially gifted $45 billion in write-offs (book value $18 billion) to GM. So when GM earned a $7.6 billion profit in 2011 (more on that below), it paid no taxes.

Include that $18 billion gift, and taxpayers' true loss climbs to nearly $35 billion.

Of course, there's no chance that the Obama administration will sell off its GM stake before Election Day. That would force Obama to recognize actual losses, which would remind voters that the bailout was a massive transfer from taxpayers to unions.

Union workers did make sacrifices in bankruptcy, but not nearly enough. GM only narrowed the labor cost gap vs. what Japanese automakers pay their workers. Given that Toyota (TM (javascript:;)) still enjoys a price premium over similar GM vehicles, the U.S. auto giant needs a labor cost advantage, not near-parity. And Toyota has relatively high costs. Volkswagen(VLKAY (javascript:;)) pays workers at its new Tennessee plant only about half what GM does (http://news.investors.com/article/603104/201203021902/nonunion-tennessee-auto-industry-thrives.htm?p=full).

The Volt hybrid was supposed to provide a green veneer to GM's entire lineup, like the Prius has done for Toyota. Instead, the Volt has been a p.r. disaster following fires and anemic sales that led to a temporary production halt earlier this year.

GM's market share and profits got an artificial boost in 2011 as Japan's earthquake and Thailand's massive floods wrecked havoc with supply chains for Toyota and other Japanese automakers. But with Toyota back on track and VW and Hyundai aggressively expanding in America, GM is rapidly losing share in 2012.

http://news.investors.com/article/616849/201207030826/gm-bailout-taxpayer-loss-rises-as-shares-fall.htm