Military officer killed. [Archive] - Debate Policy

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Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

06-30-2012, 07:10 PM

Sad that this officer was shot down by a fellow soldier. So far no reason for the shooting has been identified. Let's hope its not another Islam driven act as was the Fort Hood murders by Major muhamad insane bastard . ..-Tyr

http://www.stripes.com/news/army/officer-killed-in-thursday-fort-bragg-shooting-identified-1.181750?localLinksEnabled=false

cadet

07-01-2012, 09:07 AM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-01-2012, 12:18 PM

That's awful...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/30/army-releases-name-officer-killed-at-fort-bragg/

Still no reason for the shooting given.-Tyr

aboutime

07-01-2012, 01:24 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/30/army-releases-name-officer-killed-at-fort-bragg/

Still no reason for the shooting given.-Tyr

No actual reason provided. However. I did hear the shooter was about to get a 'BCD' for stealing. Something about a tool box removed from govt. property.
The BAD CONDUCT DISCHARGE is a lifelong Noose around the neck of the party involved. If there was any intention of being a career soldier. He ruined it by stealing, and the officer he killed, was Supposedly...his C.O.

jafar00

07-01-2012, 11:31 PM

Let's hope its not another Islam driven act as was the Fort Hood murders by Major muhamad insane bastard . ..-Tyr

Talk about jumping the gun and looking foolish...

The soldier who fatally shot his superior officer during a safety briefing on Fort Bragg and then turned the gun on himself has died.

Col. Kevin Arata, a Fort Bragg spokesman, identified the soldier as Spc. Ricky G. Elder, 27, of Hutchinson, Kan. Elder died Saturday at Cape Fear Valley Medical Center, a nursing supervisor said.
http://www.stripes.com/scratch/4/fort-bragg-soldier-who-shot-commander-dies-1.181808

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-01-2012, 11:51 PM

Talk about jumping the gun and looking foolish...

http://www.stripes.com/scratch/4/fort-bragg-soldier-who-shot-commander-dies-1.181808

Go ahead and act as if the Religion of Peace isnt a murder inspiring bunch of bull.
I mean deliberately blowing up buses with innocent women children has never happened. Right?
A murdering scum full of muhammed bullshat didnt shoot all those soldiers at Ft. Hood. Right?
They havent made and distributed a video of their worthless asses sawing Damiel Pearls head while he was screaming. Right?
You try to defend murderers and declare they are not of your religion. While you people cheered and danced in the streets around the world after 9/11 attacks. --Tyr

jafar00

07-02-2012, 12:04 AM

Go ahead and act as if the Religion of Peace isnt a murder inspiring bunch of bull.
I mean deliberately blowing up buses with innocent women children has never happened. Right?
A murdering scum full of muhammed bullshat didnt shoot all those soldiers at Ft. Hood. Right?
They havent made and distributed a video of their worthless asses sawing Damiel Pearls head while he was screaming. Right?
You try to defend murderers and declare they are not of your religion. While you people cheered and danced in the streets around the world after 9/11 attacks. --Tyr

Go ahead and try to prove that Islam condones any of the crimes you listed above.

You can scream and shout and call me a terrorist if you want. I won't be the one looking like a fool.

You're the one immediately assuming that the latest friendly fire incident was in any way related to or anything like the incident involving Major Nidal Hasan without waiting for the facts to emerge. Such conduct is irrational. You even got his name wrong.

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 07:06 AM

Go ahead and try to prove that Islam condones any of the crimes you listed above

Does Islam need to condone the actions before they are taken seriously? Are they just ignored by Islam because it's not condoned? There are killings and terror attacks around the world, almost daily, by Muslims. The "terrorists" are predominantly muslims. Does the Muslim community not care, because it's not in the Quran and not condoned? A little odd that the Quran is being used all over the world as a stepping stone for crimes, murders and terrorism, and the rest of the Muslim community doesn't seem to care.

Islam apparently doesn't condone helping capturing terrorists either. I think the guy recently got a 30+ year sentence that helped catch OBL?

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-02-2012, 10:32 AM

aboutime

07-02-2012, 12:32 PM

Go ahead and try to prove that Islam condones any of the crimes you listed above.

You can scream and shout and call me a terrorist if you want. I won't be the one looking like a fool.

You're the one immediately assuming that the latest friendly fire incident was in any way related to or anything like the incident involving Major Nidal Hasan without waiting for the facts to emerge. Such conduct is irrational. You even got his name wrong.

Nobody needs to prove anything to those who deny such acts.
Until the scared Muslims here in the U.S. begin to stand up and speak like you are. The rest of us have nothing left, but to associate all the evil we see, with those who claim to stand behind the Koran, and call themselves Peace Loving People.
When I speak of FEAR.
We know there are countless thousands, and possibly millions of Muslim's who FEAR speaking out because those PEACE LOVING people you deny exist. Threaten them if they dare to speak. Even to the point of Promising to kill relatives back in their old nation.

So. WHEN WILL THE MUSLIM AMERICANS....not C.A.I.R. finally be able to stand up and show the rest of America...they want to overcome, and NOT be like their brethren outside the U.S. who threaten, and even promise to Kill?
When that happens. You can be certain. Americans will trust YOU.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 04:12 PM

Islam apparently doesn't condone helping capturing terrorists either. I think the guy recently got a 30+ year sentence that helped catch OBL?

As far as I know that guy was arrested for espionage that led to Pakistan's sovereignty being violated when a foreign entity launched an unprovoked attack on Pakistani soil. Can you remind me exactly how that relates to anything Islamic except for the fact that apparently, a lot of Pakistanis are Muslims?

[/B]
Islam condones jihad and the destruction of its enemies!-Tyr

What, in your understanding is Jihad?

Nobody needs to prove anything to those who deny such acts.
Until the scared Muslims here in the U.S. begin to stand up and speak like you are. The rest of us have nothing left, but to associate all the evil we see, with those who claim to stand behind the Koran, and call themselves Peace Loving People.
When I speak of FEAR.
We know there are countless thousands, and possibly millions of Muslim's who FEAR speaking out because those PEACE LOVING people you deny exist. Threaten them if they dare to speak. Even to the point of Promising to kill relatives back in their old nation.

So. WHEN WILL THE MUSLIM AMERICANS....not C.A.I.R. finally be able to stand up and show the rest of America...they want to overcome, and NOT be like their brethren outside the U.S. who threaten, and even promise to Kill?
When that happens. You can be certain. Americans will trust YOU.

Who fears speaking out? The Mainstream media simply ignores the thousands of us who do indeed speak out against terrorism. I have sat in Mosques on Fridays in many countries from the UK, to France to Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Australia and everywhere in between where the Imams and Sheikhs have given lectures against terrorism, suicide bombers, Al Qaeda and other groups.

Do a google search and you will find plenty of Muslims speaking out against terrorism that have unfortunately been so well ignored that their voices have apparently not reached you.

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/why-are-muslims-ignored-when-they-speak-out-against-terrorism/question-880847/
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Islam/2008/09/American-Muslims-Denouncing-Terrorism.aspx
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm
http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1544955.stm
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_terrorism_part_ii_ statements_by_organizatio/0012210
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1554177.stm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2005/mar/10/20050310-105612-1198r/
http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1690624.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1549573.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7038992.stm
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part _i_fatwas/0012209
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_a_fe w_quotes/0012273
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010922&slug=satrdr22
http://www.religioscope.com/info/doc/jihad/2002_scholars_definition.htm
http://www.examiner.com/article/islam-101-why-don-t-muslims-speak-out-against-violence
http://www.carlmedearis.com/blog/2010/01/do-muslims-speak-out/

WE ARE NOT SILENT!

Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS – Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur’an: ‘No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another’ (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">MSANews, September 14, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010920150230/http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/200109/20010917.15.html)).
Arabic original in al-Quds al-Arabi (http://81.144.208.20:9090/pdf/2001/09Sep/14%20Sep%20Fri/Quds02.pdf) (London), September 14, 2001, p. 2.Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.:
“All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. … necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. … [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Statement of September 27, 2001 (http://kurzman.unc.edu/islamic-statements-against-terrorism/Qaradawi).[I]Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:
“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. … It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001Abdel-Mo’tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt:
“There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle].”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 20 – 26 September 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010924102356/http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/552/p4fall3.htm)).Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was “horrified” by the attack and expressed “condolences and sadness”:
“[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. … [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 – 19 September 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010915023839/http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2001/551/fo2.htm)).Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of the Hizbullah movement in Lebanon, said he was “horrified” by these “barbaric … crimes”:
“Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. … Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
“Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur’an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Statement of September 15, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011009024647/http://www.saudiembassy.net/press_release/01-spa/09-15-Islam.htm)).<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; font-size: 13px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 19px; text-align: left; ">‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
“You must know Islam’s firm position against all these terrible crimes. The world must know that Islam is a religion of peace and mercy and goodness; it is a religion of justice and guidance…Islam has forbidden violence in all its forms. It forbids the hijacking airplanes, ships and other means of transport, and it forbids all acts that undermine the security of the innocent.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Hajj sermon of February 2, 2004, in “Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation,” May 2004, page 10 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20040726235629/http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf)).
Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
“As a human community we must be vigilant and careful to oppose these pernicious and shameless evils, which are not justified by any sane logic, nor by the religion of Islam.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Statement of September 14, 2001, in “Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation,” May 2004, page 6 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20040726235629/http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf)).
Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
“And I repeat once again: that this act that the United states was afflicted with, with this vulgarity and barbarism, and which is even more barbaric than terrorist acts, I say that these acts are from the depths of depravity and the worst of evils.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Televised statement of September 2001, in Muhammad ibn Hussin Al-Qahtani, editor, The Position of Saudi Muslim Scholars Regarding Terrorism in the Name of Islam (Saudi Arabia, 2004), pages 27-28.
Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia:
“Any attack on innocent people is unlawful and contrary to shari’a (Islamic law). … Muslims must safeguard the lives, honor and property of Christians and Jews. Attacking them contradicts shari’a.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Agence France Presse, December 4, 2001
Council of Saudi ‘Ulama, fatwa of February 2003:
“What is happening in some countries from the shedding of the innocent blood and the bombing of buildings and ships and the destruction of public and private installations is a criminal act against Islam. … Those who carry out such acts have the deviant beliefs and misleading ideologies and are responsible for the crime. Islam and Muslims should not be held responsible for such actions.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, February 8, 2003 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20030226073546/http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/08/top17.htm)); also in “Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation,” May 2004, page 10 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20040726235629/http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf)).
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, chairman of the Sunna and Sira Council, Qatar:
“Our hearts bleed for the attacks that has targeted the World Trade Center [WTC], as well as other institutions in the United States despite our strong oppositions to the American biased policy towards Israel on the military, political and economic fronts. Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur’anic verse which reads: ‘Who so ever kills a human being [as punishment] for [crimes] other than manslaughter or [sowing] corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and who so ever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind’ (Al-Ma’idah:32).”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Statement of September 13, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011126104902/http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article25.shtml)).
Tahirul Qadri, head of the Awami Tehrik Party, Pakistan:
“Bombing embassies or destroying non-military installations like the World Trade Center is no jihad. … “[T]hose who launched the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks not only killed thousands of innocent people in the United States but also put the lives of millions of Muslims across the world at risk. … Bin Laden is not a prophet that we should put thousands of lives at risk for.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">United Press International, October 18, 2001 (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml).
Ayatollah Ali Khamene’i, supreme jurist-ruler of Iran:
“Killing of people, in any place and with any kind of weapons, including atomic bombs, long-range missiles, biological or chemical weopons, passenger or war planes, carried out by any organization, country or individuals is condemned. … It makes no difference whether such massacres happen in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Deir Yassin, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq or in New York and Washington.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Islamic Republic News Agency, September 16, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010920073203/http://www.irna.com/en/hphoto/010916000000.ehp.shtml)).
President Muhammad Khatami of Iran:
“[T]he September 11 terrorist blasts in America can only be the job of a group that have voluntarily severed their own ears and tongues, so that the only language with which they could communicate would be destroying and spreading death.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Address to the United Nations General Assembly, November 9, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011203012207/http://www.president.ir/cronicnews/1380/8008/800818/800818.htm)).
League of Arab States:
“The General-Secretariat of the League of Arab States shares with the people and government of the United States of America the feelings of revulsion, horror and shock over the terrorist attacks that ripped through the World Trade Centre and Pentagon, inflicting heavy damage and killing and wounding thousands of many nationalities. These terrorist crimes have been viewed by the League as inadmissible and deserving all condemnation. Divergence of views between the Arabs and the United States over the latter’s foreign policy on the Middle East crisis does in no way adversely affect the common Arab attitude of compassion with the people and government of the United States at such moments of facing the menace and ruthlessness of international terrorism. In more than one statement released since the horrendous attacks, the League has also expressed deep sympathy with the families of the victims. In remarks to newsmen immediately following the tragic events, Arab League Secretary-General Amre Moussa described the feelings of the Arab world as demonstrably sympathetic with the American people, particularly with families and individuals who lost their loved ones. “It is indeed tormenting that any country or people or city anywhere in the world be the scene of such disastrous attacks,” he added. While convinced that it is both inconceivable and lamentable that such a large-scale, organised terrorist campaign take place anywhere, anytime, the League believes that the dreadful attacks against WTC and the Pentagon unveil, time and again, that the cancer of terrorism can be extensively damaging if left unchecked. It follows that there is a pressing and urgent need to combat world terrorism. In this context, an earlier call by [Egyptian] President Hosni Mubarak for convening an international conference to draw up universal accord on ways and means to eradicate this phenomenon and demonstrate international solidarity is worthy of active consideration. The Arabs have walked a large distance in the fight against cross-border terrorism by concluding in April 1998 the Arab Agreement on Combating Terrorism.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">September 17, 2001.
Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, Secretary-General of the Organization of the Islamic Conference:
“Following the bloody attacks against major buildings and installations in the United States yesterday, Tuesday, September 11, 2001, Dr. Abdelouahed Belkeziz, secretary-general of the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), stated that he was shocked and deeply saddened when he heard of those attacks which led to the death and injury of a very large number of innocent American citizens. Dr. Belkeziz said he was denouncing and condemning those criminal and brutal acts that ran counter to all covenants, humanitarian values and divine religions foremost among which was Islam.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Press Release, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, September 12, 2001.
Organization of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers:
“The Conference strongly condemned the brutal terror acts that befell the United States, caused huge losses in human lives from various nationalities and wreaked tremendous destruction and damage in New York and Washington. It further reaffirmed that these terror acts ran counter to the teachings of the divine religions as well as ethical and human values, stressed the necessity of tracking down the perpetrators of these acts in the light of the results of investigations and bringing them to justice to inflict on them the penalty they deserve, and underscored its support of this effort. In this respect, the Conference expressed its condolences to and sympathy with the people and government of the United States and the families of the victims in these mournful and tragic circumstances.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Final Communique of the Ninth Extraordinary Session of the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers, October 10, 2001.
Organization of the Islamic Conference, Summit Conference:
“We are determined to fight terrorism in all its forms. … Islam is the religion of moderation. It rejects extremism and isolation. There is a need to confront deviant ideology where it appears, including in school curricula. Islam is the religion of diversity and tolerance.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Daily Star (Beirut, Lebanon), December 9, 2005.
Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, Head of the Directorate of Religious Affairs of Turkey:
“Any human being, regardless of his ethnic and religious origin, will never think of carrying out such a violent, evil attack. Whatever its purpose is, this action cannot be justified and tolerated.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Mehmet Nuri Yilmaz, “A Message on Ragaib Night and Terrorism,” September 21, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011215192150/http://www.diyanet.gov.tr/duyurular/regaibing.htm)).
Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), Turkish author:
“The religion of Islam can by no means countenance terrorism. On the contrary, terror (i.e. murder of innocent people) in Islam is a great sin, and Muslims are responsible for preventing these acts and bringing peace and justice to the world.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Harun Yahya, Islam Denounces Terrorism (http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/).
Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi, Pakistani-American Muslim leader:
“The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people. Islam, which is a religion of peace and tolerance, condemns this act and sees this is as a wounding scar on the face of humanity. I appeal to Muslims to strongly condemn this act, express unity with the victims’ relatives, donate blood, money and do whatever it takes to help the affected people.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi” (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010918200837/http://www.icna.org/wtc_islahi.htm)).
Abdal-Hakim Murad, British Muslim author:
“Targeting civilians is a negation of every possible school of Sunni Islam. Suicide bombing is so foreign to the Quranic ethos that the Prophet Samson is entirely absent from our scriptures.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“The Hijackers Were Not Muslims After All: Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists” (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010924085940/http://www.dspace.dial.pipex.com/masud/ISLAM/ahm/recapturing.htm)).
Syed Mumtaz Ali, President of the Canadian Society of Muslims:
“We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Canadians in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Canadian Society of Muslims, Media Release, September 12, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010915155615/http://www.muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html)).
15 American Muslim organizations:
“We reiterate our unequivocal condemnation of the crime committed on September 11, 2001 and join our fellow Americans in mourning the loss of up to 6000 innocent civilians.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Muslim American Society (MAS), Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA), Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), Muslim Alliance of North America (MANA), Muslim Student Association (MSA), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), United Association for Studies and Research (UASR), Solidarity International, American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice (AMGPJ), American Muslim Alliance (AMA), United Muslim Americans Association (UMAA), Islamic Media Foundation (IMF), American Muslim Foundation (AMF), Coordinating Council of Muslim Organizations (CCMO), American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), October 22, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011121152646/http://www.icna.org/wtc_pr.htm)).
57 leaders of North American Islamic organizations, 77 intellectuals, and dozens of concerned citizens:
“As American Muslims and scholars of Islam, we wish to restate our conviction that peace and justice constitute the basic principles of the Muslim faith. We wish again to state unequivocally that neither the al-Qaeda organization nor Usama bin Laden represents Islam or reflects Muslim beliefs and practice. Rather, groups like al-Qaeda have misused and abused Islam in order to fit their own radical and indeed anti-Islamic agenda. Usama bin Laden and al-Qaeda’s actions are criminal, misguided and counter to the true teachings of Islam.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Statement Rejecting Terrorism, September 9, 2002 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20020916085653/http://www.islam-democracy.org/terrorism_statement.asp)).
American Muslim Political Coordination Council:
“American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Full-page ad (http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism/CAIRFullPageAdvertisement.aspx) in The Washington Post, September 16, 2001.
Dr. Agha Saeed, National Chair of the American Muslim Alliance:
“These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">September 11, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010920045238/http://www.amaweb.org/AMA+Condemns.html)).
Hamza Yusuf, American Muslim leader:
“Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people [who committed murder on September 11] indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they’re obviously very sick people and I can’t even look at it in religious terms. It’s politics, tragic politics. There’s no Islamic justification for any of it. … You can’t kill innocent people. There’s no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country. In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, “Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,” and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, “Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.” The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It’s prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">San Jose Mercury News, September 15, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20010920073355/http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm)).
Nuh Ha Mim Keller, American Muslim author:
“Muslims have nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to hide, and should simply tell people what their scholars and religious leaders have always said: first, that the Wahhabi sect has nothing to do with orthodox Islam, for its lack of tolerance is a perversion of traditional values; and second, that killing civilians is wrong and immoral.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“Making the World Safe for Terrorism,” September 30, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011116182521/http://66.34.131.5/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm)).
Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens), prominent British Muslim:
“I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist attacks committed against innocent people of the United States yesterday. While it is still not clear who carried out the attack, it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: the Qur’an equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose sympathies go out to the victims at this sorrowful moment.”
[On singing an a cappella version of "Peace Train" for the Concert for New York City:] “After the tragedy, my heart was heavy with sadness and shock, and I was determined to help in some way. Organizers asked me to take part in a message for tolerance and sing ‘Peace Train.’ Of course, I agreed. … As a Muslim from the West, it is important to me to let people know that these acts of mass murder have nothing to do with Islam and the beliefs of Muslims.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Press release of September 13, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20040515132957/mountainoflight.co.uk/pages/news/2001/sept132001_press.html)), and interview of October 22, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20040224202406/mountainoflight.co.uk/pages/news/2001/oct2220001_starstribute.html)).
Muslims Against Terrorism, a U.S.-based organization:
“As Muslims, we condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations. Ours is a religion of peace. We are sick and tired of extremists dictating the public face of Islam.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“About us” (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011027093842/www.matusa.org/aboutus.html)). This statement was replaced by a new statement in favor of peace by the group’s successor organization, Muslim Voices for Peace (http://www.mvp-us.org/).
Abdulaziz Sachedina, professor of religious studies, University of Virginia:
“New York was grieving. Sorrow covered the horizons. The pain of separation and of missing family members, neighbors, citizens, humans could be felt in every corner of the country. That day was my personal day of “jihad” (“struggle”) — jihad with my pride and my identity as a Muslim. This is the true meaning of jihad — “struggle with one’s own ego and false pride.” I don’t ever recall that I had prayed so earnestly to God to spare attribution of such madness that was unleashed upon New York and Washington to the Muslims. I felt the pain and, perhaps for the first time in my entire life, I felt embarrassed at the thought that it could very well be my fellow Muslims who had committed this horrendous act of terrorism. How could these terrorists invoke God’s mercifulness and compassion when they had, through their evil act, put to shame the entire history of this great religion and its culture of toleration?”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“Where Was God on September 11?” (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20021202025604/http://www.virginia.edu/soasia/newsletter/Fall01/God.html)).
Ali Khan, professor of law, Washburn University School of Law, Topeka, Kansas:
“To the most learned in the text of the Quran, these verses must be read in the context of many other verses that stipulate the Islamic law of war—a war that the Islamic leader must declare after due consultation with advisers. For the less learned, however, these verses may provide the motivation and even the plot for a merciless strike against a self-chosen enemy.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“Attack on America: An Islamic Perspective (http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew29.htm),” September 17, 2001.
Muqtedar Khan, then an assistant professor of political science, Adrian College, Michigan:
“What happened on September 11th in New York and Washington DC will forever remain a horrible scar on the history of Islam and humanity. No matter how much we condemn it, and point to the Quran and the Sunnah to argue that Islam forbids the killing of innocent people, the fact remains that the perpetrators of this crime against humanity have indicated that their actions are sanctioned by Islamic values. The fact that even now several Muslim scholars and thousands of Muslims defend the accused is indicative that not all Muslims believe that the attacks are unIslamic. This is truly sad. … If anywhere in your hearts there is any sympathy or understanding with those who committed this act, I invite you to ask yourself this question, would Muhammad (pbuh) sanction such an act? While encouraging Muslims to struggle against injustice (Al Quran 4:135), Allah also imposes strict rules of engagement. He says in unequivocal terms that to kill an innocent being is like killing entire humanity (Al Quran 5:32). He also encourages Muslims to forgive Jews and Christians if they have committed injustices against us (Al Quran 2:109, 3:159, 5:85).”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“A Memo to American Muslims (http://www.ijtihad.org/memo.htm),” October 5, 2001.
Dr. Alaa Al-Yousuf, Bahraini economist and political activist:
“On Friday, 14 September [the first Friday prayers after 11 September], almost the whole world expressed its condemnation of the crime and its grief for the bereaved families of the victims. Those who abstained or, even worse, rejoiced, will have joined the terrorists, not in the murder, but in adding to the incalculable damage on the other victims of the atrocity, namely, Islam as a faith, Muslims and Arabs as peoples, and possibly the Palestinian cause. The terrorists and their apologists managed to sully Islam as a faith both in the eyes of many Muslims and non-Muslims alike.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20020829142426/http://www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-6.htm)).
Dr. S. Parvez Manzoor, Swedish-based Muslim author:
“If these acts of terror indeed have been perpetrated by Muslim radicals or fundamentalists, they have reaped nothing but eternal damnation, shame and ignominy. For nothing, absolutely nothing, could remotely be advanced as an excuse for these barbaric acts. They represent a total negation of Islamic values, an utter disregard of our fiqhi tradition, and a slap in the face of the Ummah. They are in total contrast to what Islamic reason, compassion and faith stand for. Even from the more mundane criteria of common good, the maslaha of the jurists, these acts are treasonous and suicidal. Islamic faith has been so callously and casually sacrificed at the altar of politics, a home-grown politics of parochial causes, primeval passions, self-endorsing piety and messianic terror.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Interview with the International Forum for Islamic Dialogue, London (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20021201043720/www.islam21.net/pages/keyissues/key7-3.htm)).
Anwar Ibrahim, Malaysian Islamic activist and former deputy prime minister:
“Never in Islam’s entire history has the action of so few of its followers caused the religion and its community of believers to be such an abomination in the eyes of others. Millions of Muslims who fled to North America and Europe to escape poverty and persecution at home have become the object of hatred and are now profiled as potential terrorists. And the nascent democratic movements in Muslim countries will regress for a few decades as ruling autocrats use their participation in the global war against terrorism to terrorize their critics and dissenters. This is what Mohammed Atta and his fellow terrorists and sponsors have done to Islam and its community worldwide by their murder of innocents at the World Trade Center in New York and the Defense Depart-ment in Washington. The attack must be condemned, and the condemnation must be without reservation.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Anwar Ibrahim, “Growth of Democracy Is the Answer to Terrorism,” International Herald Tribune, October 11, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011122022534/http://www.iht.com/articles/35281.htm)).
Ziauddin Sardar, British Muslim author:
“The failure of Islamic movements is their inability to come to terms with modernity, to give modernity a sustainable home-grown expression. Instead of engaging with the abundant problems that bedevil Muslim lives, the Islamic prescription consists of blind following of narrow pieties and slavish submission to inept obscurantists. Instead of engagement with the wider world, they have made Islam into an ethic of separation, separate under-development, and negation of the rest of the world.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Ziauddin Sardar, “Islam has become its own enemy (http://www.observer.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,577942,00.html),” The Observer, October 21, 2001.
Khaled Abou El Fadl, Kuwaiti-Egyptian-American legal scholar:
“It would be disingenuous to deny that the Qur’an and other Islamic sources offer possibilities of intolerant interpretation. Clearly these possibilities are exploited by the contemporary puritans and supremacists. But the text does not command such intolerant readings. Historically, Islamic civilization has displayed a remarkable ability to recognize possibilities of tolerance, and to act upon these possibilities.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Khaled Abou El Fadl, “The Place of Tolerance in Islam: On Reading the Qur’an — and Misreading It,” Boston Review, December 2001/January 2002 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011210065811/http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR26.6/elfadl.html)).
Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti, Palestinian-American mufti and member of the North American Fiqh Council:
“The people who attacked the WTC and Pentagon and hijacked the forth plane that crashed in Pennsylvania are criminal who deserve the severest punishment as the Quran elaborates. They are murderers and terrorists. If there were any person who felt happy for that incident we would not be able to equate them with those criminals, but we can say no one with faith and ethics would accept anything of that murder and targeting of innocent people.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Sheikh Muhammad Ali Al-Hanooti, “Fatwa Session on Latest Tragic Events,” IslamOnline, September 20, 2001 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20011118161246/http://www.islamonline.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=pdwD2E)).
Syed Shahabuddin, Indian Muslim author:
“Islam prohibits terrorism as well as suicide. Jihad is neither and has no place for taking innocent lives or one’s own life. No cause, howsoever noble or just, can justify terrorism. So while one may sympathize with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people and support their claim to a state of their own, while one may appreciate the democratic awakening among the people of many Muslim states and uphold their demand for withdrawal of foreign presence from their soil and support their struggle for revision of the terms of trade for their natural resources, no thinking Muslim can go along with the use of terrorism for securing political goals.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Syed Shahabuddin, “Global war against terrorism – the Islamic dimension (http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01112001/34.htm),” Milli Gazette newspaper (New Delhi, India), November 1, 2001.
Dr. M. A. Zaki Badawi, principal of the Muslim College, London, England:
“Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Dr. M. A. Zaki Badawi, “Terrorism has no place in Islam (http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=5&section=0&article=9314&d=28&m=9&y=2001),” Arab News (Jiddah-Riyadh-Dhahran, Saudi Arabia), September 28, 2001.
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, head mufti at Jamiat-ul-Uloom-ul-Islamia seminary, Binori Town, Pakistan and a leader of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI) party, Pakistan:
“It’s wrong to kill innocent people. … It’s also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/28/world/nation-challenged-hunted-new-push-get-bin-laden-agree-quit-afghanistan.html?pagewanted=2), September 28, 2001, p. B3.
Shaykh Omar Bakri, leader of al-Muhajirun, a radical Islamist movement then based in London, England:
“If Islamists did it — and most likely it is Islamists, because of the nature of what happened — then they have fully misunderstood the teachings of Islam. … Even the most radical of us have condemned this. I am always considered to be a radical in the Islamic world and even I condemn it.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">The Gazette (Montreal, Quebec, Canada), September 13, 2001, p. B6.
Zuhair Qudah, a preacher at al-Lawzieen mosque, Amman, Jordan:
“We stand by our Palestinian brothers in their struggle to end the occupation, but we don’t condone violence, ugly crimes and the killing of innocent people.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Associated Press, September 14, 2001.
Salih bin Muhammad Lahidan, chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
“Killing the weak, infants, women, and the elderly, and destroying property, are considered serious crimes in Islam. . . . Viewing on the TV networks what happened to the twin towers . . . was like watching doomsday. Those who commit such crimes are the worst of people. Anyone who thinks that any Islamic scholar will condone such acts is totally wrong. . . . This barbaric act is not justified by any sane mind-set. . . . This act is pernicious and shameless and evil in the extreme.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">The Washington Post, October 13, 2001, p. B9.
Shaykh Rached Ghannouchi, chairman of Tunisia’s an-Nahda Movement, in exile in London, England:
“Such destruction can only be condemned by any Muslim, however resentful one may be of America’s biased policies supporting occupation in Palestine, as an unacceptable attack on thousands of innocent people having no relation to American policies. Anyone familiar with Islam has no doubt about its rejection of collective punishment, based on the well-known Quranic principle that ‘no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another.’”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">The Washington Post, October 13, 2001, p. B9
Shaykh Salih al-Suhaymi, religious scholar, Saudi Arabia:
“Based upon what has preceded, then we say that that which we believe and hold as our religion concerning what happened to the World Trade Centre in America – and in Allaah lies success – that the terrorist attacks that took place and what occurred of general (mass) killing, then it is not permissible and Islaam does not allow it in any form whatsoever.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs… (http://www.fatwaonline.com/news/0011018.htm),” October 18, 2001, translated by Abu ‘Iyaad.
Dr. Sayed G. Safavi, Iranian religious scholar and director of the Institute of Islamic Studies, London, England:
“The targeting of innocent persons cannot be allowed. Islam is against any form of terrorism, whether it be carried out by an individual, a group or a state. … For Muslims to kill civilians unconnected with any attack on them is a crime. The principal law of Islam is: don’t attack civilians. This includes civilians of any faith, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christian. According to Islam, all people are the family of God. The target of religion is peace.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“United against terrorism (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/3593198/United-against-terrorism.html),” The Daily Telegraph, London, England, June 30, 2003.
Iqbal Siddiqui, editor of Crescent International, London, England:
“History also teaches us that the only effective way of challenging oppression and the only effective way of fighting injustice is through force; that is simply the way of the world. Pacifism is all too often a weapon of the status quo…. When Islamic movements in the world do need to resort to the use of force, that force must be used morally. When extreme fringes of those movements are pushed to use force indiscriminately, immorally, wrongly against illegitimate targets, and using illegitimate weapons (such [as] hijacked jumbo jets), those are crimes for which the people who share their cause, who share their view of the world, their understanding of the need to use force, must also criticise them, turn against them, isolate them. Our standards must be higher than those of the people whom we are fighting, because if we descend to their standards then there is no difference between us.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Iqbal Siddiqui, “Terrorism and political violence in contemporary history,” Conference on Terrorism, Institute of Islamic Studies, London, England, November 13, 2001, published in Muslimedia International, February 16-28, 2002 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20020831145557/http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/movement02/terror-hist.htm)). Earlier version also on-line via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20020407111312/http://www.islamic-studies.org/terrorconfer.pro.htm).
Islamway website:
“The message of the Quran is clear as we have seen, that the sanctity of any human life is to be respected and any violation in that regard is paramount to the worst crime. Mercy is at the heart of the Islamic call, “We sent thee (O Muhammad) not save as a mercy for the peoples” (21:107); a totally different message to what the terrorists are sadly imparting to humanity.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“What Does Islam Say About Terrorism? (http://discover.islamway.com/articles.php?article_id=47)“
Islamic Commission of Spain:
“Muslims, therefore, are not only forbidden from committing crimes against innocent people, but are responsible before God to stop those people who have the intention to do so, since these people ‘are planting the seeds of corruption on Earth’…. The perpetration of terrorist acts supposes a rupture of such magnitude with Islamic teaching that it allows to affirm that the individuals or groups who have perpetrated them have stopped being Muslim and have put themselves outside the sphere of Islam.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“Text of the Fatwa Declared Against Osama Bin Laden by the Islamic Commission of Spain (http://www.webislam.com/?idn=537),” March 17, 2005; original Spanish version: “La Comisión Islámica de España emite una fatua condenando el terrorismo y al grupo Al Qaida (http://www.webislam.com/?idn=399),” March 10, 2005.
The Amman Message, proclaimed by 200 Islamic scholars from 50 countries at a conference in Amman, Jordan, and later endorsed by hundreds of other Islamic scholars and the Organization of the Islamic Conference:
“Islam recognizes the noble station of [human] life, so there is to be no fighting against non-combatants, and no assault upon civilians and their properties, children at their mothers’ bosom, students in their schools, nor upon elderly men and women. Assault upon the life of a human being, be it murder, injury or threat, is an assault upon the right to life among all human beings. It is among the gravest of sins; for human life is the basis for the prosperity of humanity: Whoever kills a soul for other than slaying a soul or corruption upon the earth it is as if he has killed the whole of humanity, and whoever saves a life, it is as if has revived the whole of humanity. (5:32)”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">The Official Website of the Amman Message (http://www.ammanmessage.com/), July 2005
Fatwa signed by more than 500 British Muslim scholars, clerics, and imams:
“Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives. There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are HARAAM – vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London [on July 7, 2005] are criminals not martyrs. Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam. … The Holy Quran declares: ‘Whoever kills a human being… then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.’ (Quran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32) Islam’s position is clear and unequivocal: Murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">British Muslim Forum, press release of July 18, 2005 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20060114013624/http://www.britishmuslimforum.org/view_press_release.php?id=26)).
Fiqh Council of North America, an association of 18 Muslim legal scholars, fatwa endorsed by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), the Muslim American Society (MAS), the Association of Muslim Social Scientists (AMSS), the Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers (AMSE), the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), and more than 130 Muslim organizations, mosques and leaders in the United States:
“We have consistently condemned terrorism and extremism in all forms and under all circumstances, and we reiterate this unequivocal position. Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – prohibited in Islam – and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not ‘martyrs.’”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“Fatwa by U.S. Muslims Against Religious Extremism,” July 25, 2005 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20050910181656/http://www.mpac.org/bucket_downloads/fatwa-on-terrorism.pdf)).
Islamic Society of North America, Anti-Terrrorism Anti-Extremism Committee:
“Humanity lives today in an interdependent and interconnected world where peaceful and fair interaction, including interfaith and intra-faith dialogue, is imperative. A grave threat to all of us nowadays is the scourge of religious and political extremism that manifests itself in various forms of violence, including terrorism. In the absence of a universally agreed upon definition of terrorism, it may be defined as any act of indiscriminate violence that targets innocent people, whether committed by individuals, groups or states. As Muslims, we must face up to our responsibility to clarify and advocate a faith-based, righteous and moral position with regard to this problem, especially when terrorist acts are perpetrated in the name of Islam. The purpose of this brochure is to clarify a few key issues relating to this topic, not because of external pressures or for the sake of “political correctness”, but out of our sincere conviction of what Islam stands for.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Islamic Society of North America, “Against Terrorism and Religious Extremism: Muslim Position and Responsibilities,” 2005 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20051104040739/http://www.balancedislam.org/ATAECbrochure.pdf)).
Shaykh Abdulaziz Al-Asheikh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
The London attacks, “targeting peaceful people, are not condoned by Islam, and are indeed prohibited by our religion. … Attributing to Islam acts of individual or collective killings, bombings, destruction of properties and the terrorizing of peaceful people is unfair, because they are alien to the divine religion.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Fatwa-Online (http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0050709.htm), July 9, 2005.
Shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhaab al-’Aqeel, professor of creed (‘aqeedah) at the College of Proselytising (da’wah), Islamic University of Madinah, Saudi Arabia:
“Terrorism is the terror that is caused by those groups or individuals who resort to killing and wreaking havoc and destruction. Terrorism is therefore, according to the contemporary compilers of modern Arabic dictionaries, killing akin to the riotous killing that is mentioned within the texts of Shar’eeah. As the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wassallam) mentioned with regards to the signs of the end of time, the spread of ‘al-Harj’ (riotous killing). The meaning of ‘al-Harj’ is killing and the increase of the spilling blood, which is all from the signs of the end of time. To the extent that the one killing will not know why he is killing and the one that was killed will not know why he/she was killed. Islam is free from this riotous killing, free from this terrorism and free from this kind of corruption. Terrorism is established upon destruction of properties such as factories, farms, places of worship, train stations, airports and the likes; Islam is clearly free from such actions that are based upon corruption and not upon rectification. Terrorists usually say that they are going against the state in which they are based within. This is like the mafia or other criminal organisations that are based on killing people, causing fear and taking their monies. Such criminal organisations have leaders, deputies and individuals that are responsible for establishing regulations for the organisation and individuals responsible for carrying out attacks, and all of them are terrorists causing corruption on the earth. However the ugliest face of terrorism is that which is established in the name of religion, all of the religions from the Prophets (peace be upon them) are free from such terrorism, even if some of the followers of the Prophets participated in such terrorist activities, but the Prophets are free from such corruptions.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Lecture on “The Evils of Terrorism,” August 20, 2005, translated in Islam Against Terrorism – v1.20 (http://www.fatwa-online.com/downloads/dow004/islamagainstterrorism.chm), September 17, 2005.
Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Malaysian Muslim scholar and research fellow in Islamic philosophy and theology, Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, U.K.:
“If you still insist that your [religious or civil] authority should declare war with the non-Muslim state upon which you wish war to be declared, then the most you could do in this capacity is to lobby your authority for it. However, if your anger is so unrestrained that its fire brings out the worst in you to the point that your disagreement with your Muslim authority leads you to declare war on those you want your authority to declare war on, and you end up resorting to violence, then know with certainty that you have violated our own religious Laws. For then you will have taken the Shari’a into your own hands.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Shaykh Muhammad Afifi al-Akiti, Defending the Transgressed by Censuring the Reckless against the Killing of Civilians (http://www.warda.info/fatwa.pdf), Germany: Warda Publications, and United Kingdom: Aqsa Press, 2005, p.49.
Abd al-Hakim Murad, British Muslim scholar:
“This is a decadence that is profound. And that it happens in the holy land is particularly worrying. Near the muqadsāt, where we are particularly required to conform entirely to the adāb of the Shari’ah. This is a deep subversion. And as for those who think that for reasons of masfahah that the door can be opened there, but somehow that door will remain closed elsewhere in the world, that this door can be opened because the Palestinians are so oppressed and somehow it’s going to help them, but of course we keep it closed in Chechnya and Kahsmir and certainly in London, that logic doesn’t seem to have worked too well. That rage, that desire to self annihilation, to lash out and the men, women and children, whoever in the vicinity, is now becoming a global epidemic. And the ‘ulama who opened the little door now see these legions rushing through it in every place don’t know what to do about it. That door has to be closed. Islam is too good for such practices, for such baseness, for such wild expression of futility and despair and vindictiveness.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Interview, December 16-18, 2005, London-Leeds-Manchester (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20080204012830/http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=45)).
Islamic Society of North America:
“The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) condemns in the strongest terms the recent acts of terrorism in Glasgow, London and Yemen. We reaffirm our long-standing, unqualified condemnation of all acts of terrorism and all acts of violence committed against the innocent, and our denunciation of religious extremism and particularly the use of Islam to justify terrorism in any of its forms. We sympathize with the victims of these senseless attacks and offer our heart-felt condolences to the families who have lost their dear ones.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">“Islamic Society of North America Statement in Response to Recent Bombings,” July 10, 2007 (via archive.org (http://web.archive.org/web/20070822033342/http://www.isna.net/index.php?id=35&backPID=1&tt_news=884)).
Maulana Marghubur Rahman, organizer of “Anti-Terrorism Convention” and rector of the Dar ul-Ulum Deoband madrasa, India:
“We condemn all forms of terrorism … and in this we make no distinction. Terrorism is completely wrong, no matter who engages in it, and no matter what religion he follows or community he belongs to.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">February 2008, translated by Yoginder Sikand (http://www.twocircles.net/2008mar11/deobands_anti_terrorism_convention_some_reflection s.html).
Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, founding leader of Minhaj-ul-Quran International, Pakistan:
“[T]he killing of Muslims and the perpetration of terrorism are not only unlawful and forbidden in Islam but also represent the rejection of faith.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Fatwa on Suicide Bombings and Terrorism (http://www.fatwaonterrorism.com/), March 2, 2010.
New Mardin Declaration, Turkey:
“Ibn Taymiyya’s fatwa concerning Mardin can under no circumstances be appropriated and used as evidence for leveling the charge of kufr (unbelief) against fellow Muslims, rebelling against rulers, deeming game their lives and property, terrorizing those who enjoy safety and security, acting treacherously towards those who live (in harmony) with fellow Muslims or with whom fellow Muslims live (in harmony) via the bond of citizenship and peace.”
<small style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">The New Mardin Declaration (http://www.mardin-fatwa.com/attach/Mardin_Declaration_English.pdf), March 28, 2010 (Arabic version (http://www.mardin-fatwa.com/attach/mardin_2010_arabic.pdf)).
More statements are released by Muslim organizations and religious scholars on a regular basis, but multiplying the examples may not persuade those who dismiss these dozens of examples.

aboutime

07-02-2012, 04:33 PM

It has always been my experience. Whenever you ask 'WHAT TIME IS IT?", and someone tells you a really long, time consuming story about how THE CLOCK WORKS instead. As you did above.
I suspect your frustration is borne out of needing to defend something you CANNOT defend.

That is all I see in your LONG, LONG TIRADE above.

No. I did not take, or waste the time to read everything you posted above. Nothing you said will change my mind, and none of the information you provided says anything to me, except your need to hide behind Long, Long Excuses.
Blaming the Press for NOT repeating things is just as bad as Blaming them for Reporting things that don't matter.

As an American. I am thoroughly tired, and disgusted with the Endless Blame Games created by people to shove all responsibility on others instead of Stepping Up, to accept, and try to change whatever a problem may be.
We as Americans have been hearing BLAME GAMES since Obama took office. And it applies to more than just Bush, and Politics.
We have seen our Wannabe, Pretend President Disgrace, Denounce, and try to Destroy our nation based on his Hate, and Ignorance all aimed at pleasing American enemies, whom just happen to ADMIRE him...because he can always be depended upon to BLAME someone else for his Racism, Bigotry, Hatred and Absolute. STUPIDITY. Even as far as bowing down to Enemies of America who have sworn to Kill AMERICANS...Just like those you claim ARE SPEAKING UP, but doing nothing unless you can convince me, and others to accept your BLAME GAME.

In conclusion. Everything you tried to say above. Appears to be nothing more than an OBAMA LIKE tirade of ignorance. And I refuse to accept it as anything more than that MISTER OBAMA, WANNABE.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 04:45 PM

In conclusion. Everything you tried to say above. Appears to be nothing more than an OBAMA LIKE tirade of ignorance. And I refuse to accept it as anything more than that MISTER OBAMA, WANNABE.

Speaking of ignorance...

You complain that Muslims are not speaking out against terrorism and violence and I provided copious evidence to the contrary, yet you choose to ignore it. :neener:

aboutime

07-02-2012, 04:49 PM

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 04:50 PM

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 04:52 PM

Speaking of ignorance...

You complain that Muslims are not speaking out against terrorism and violence and I provided copious evidence to the contrary, yet you choose to ignore it. :neener:

I'll agree that there are in fact a decent amount of Muslims speaking out, but not nearly enough of the major Islamic leaders, and not nearly enough considering the amount of attacks and abuse. They need more than the little guys speaking up or a few clerics or Imams.

ConHog

07-02-2012, 04:56 PM

And yet the terror attacks by Muslims continue. And yet the abuse of women in the Muslim world continues. I'm not vilifying ALL Muslims, but there are HUGE and widespread abuse of the Quran using it as a vehicle and an excuse to kill. As for the abuse of women, Muslims will swear they aren't taught to do so, and it's not in the Quran, but yet the abuse of women in Muslim countries seems to be another HUGE issue. If it's not an Islamic thing, then why are women so much more prone to be abused in many Muslim countries than anywhere else and under any other religion?

Yes, Jafar, we get it, not all Muslims are bad people, but there is an inordinate amount killing in the name of Allah and far too many women being abused, physically and mentally. Not acknowledging it, or proclaiming that it's not condoned by Islam, does nothing to make these facts go away.

That's the one that gets me. I can happily admit that there are quite a few Muslims in the world speaking out against terrorism, now no doubt a lot of that is borne out of the desire to NEVER see a Predator up close and personal rather than disliking terrorism, but whatever the result is the same. But what about women's rights? Where is the list of noted Muslims calling for equal treatment of women.

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 04:58 PM

That's the one that gets me. I can happily admit that there are quite a few Muslims in the world speaking out against terrorism, now no doubt a lot of that is borne out of the desire to NEVER see a Predator up close and personal rather than disliking terrorism, but whatever the result is the same. But what about women's rights? Where is the list of noted Muslims calling for equal treatment of women.

Your average Muslim will state there is no problem with abuse, and what abuse does take place has nothing to do with Islam. Of course they ignore the overwhelming statistics from so many Muslim countries and just chalk it up to bad people who just happen to live a life of Islam and beat women.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 05:09 PM

Whatever you say. So, WHAT TIME IS IT NOW?

Almost 8am. Do you still think that Muslims do not speak out against terrorism?

And yet the terror attacks by Muslims continue.

Terror attacks by Jews, Buddhists and Christians continue too. That doesn't mean anything in their religions support what they do. It just goes to show that bad people do bad things and will use whatever excuse they can to try and justify it. Anders Breivik killed a bunch of Norwegians and used the excuse that he was defending the country against an invasion of Muslims. Does that make him right?

And yet the abuse of women in the Muslim world continues.

Abuse of women happens in non Muslim countries too. Have you lived in an Islamic country? Have you had many experiences with Muslim women?
I don't abuse my wife. None of the women in our family are abused in any way. Nor are any of their friends. If they were we would hear about it. Arabs tend to ostracise bad people in their communities.

why are women so much more prone to be abused in many Muslim countries than anywhere else and under any other religion?

Why are Muslim women abused in non Muslim countries?
Here is a French woman being forcefully arrested because she wants to dress modestly wearing a niqab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luGW4oIhB3g

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 05:17 PM

Terror attacks by Jews, Buddhists and Christians continue too. That doesn't mean anything in their religions support what they do. It just goes to show that bad people do bad things and will use whatever excuse they can to try and justify it. Anders Breivik killed a bunch of Norwegians and used the excuse that he was defending the country against an invasion of Muslims. Does that make him right?

Abuse of women happens in non Muslim countries too. Have you lived in an Islamic country? Have you had many experiences with Muslim women?
I don't abuse my wife. None of the women in our family are abused in any way. Nor are any of their friends. If they were we would hear about it. Arabs tend to ostracise bad people in their communities.

Why are Muslim women abused in non Muslim countries?
Here is a French woman being forcefully arrested because she wants to dress modestly wearing a niqab.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luGW4oIhB3g

Of course these things happen to an extent in other religions/countries, I haven't stated otherwise. But the percentages are HUGELY different. And I see a LOT more support for abuse of women and terrorism in the Islamic world than anywhere else. And while the abuses of women do happen in every religion and in every country, again, the percentages in the Islamic world are MUCH, MUCH higher. Plainly put, there is MUCH more terrorism in Islamic countries. There is MUCH more abuse of women in Islamic countries. Just a coincidence of course, I'm sure.

Oh, and yes, I know quite a few Muslims, and quite a few of them are women. No, I haven't been to an Islamic country, but I don't need to in order to read statistics from international agencies and Muslim news agencies. Hell, my Muslim friends are the ones who explain most of these things to me! They all think women are lesser than the men and admit it. Their wives and daughters ALWAYS walk about 10 steps behind them, NEVER in front of them, and they're due a slap in the face if they dare otherwise. My friends and there experiences are from Morocco, Algeria, Jordan & Iran.

logroller

07-02-2012, 05:19 PM

logroller

07-02-2012, 05:40 PM

Of course these things happen to an extent in other religions/countries, I haven't stated otherwise. But the percentages are HUGELY different. And I see a LOT more support for abuse of women and terrorism in the Islamic world than anywhere else. And while the abuses of women do happen in every religion and in every country, again, the percentages in the Islamic world are MUCH, MUCH higher. Plainly put, there is MUCH more terrorism in Islamic countries. There is MUCH more abuse of women in Islamic countries. Just a coincidence of course, I'm sure.

Oh, and yes, I know quite a few Muslims, and quite a few of them are women. No, I haven't been to an Islamic country, but I don't need to in order to read statistics from international agencies and Muslim news agencies. Hell, my Muslim friends are the ones who explain most of these things to me! They all think women are lesser than the men and admit it. Their wives and daughters ALWAYS walk about 10 steps behind them, NEVER in front of them, and they're due a slap in the face if they dare otherwise. My friends and there experiences are from Morocco, Algeria, Jordan & Iran.
Stephen covey wrote a book called 7 habits of highly effective people; in it he lists one as "begin with the end in sight." we tend to find what what seek; if you seek to find Islam to blame, you will find all the evidence necessary to reach that conclusion.

What I find most interesting about the America vs Islam is how staunchly conservative they both are; thy just disagree on the scope. I mean, here in America we are free to abort babies, under the auspices of personal freedom and many conservatives disagree with this--considering a liberal plight. While in Islam they may punish a woman for sowing corruption by being promiscuous; I wonder how many muslims consider this too conservative?

My point is We are more alike than different; we should focus in those similarities; and from jafar's post it appears we are very similar on the terrorism front.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 05:52 PM

I'll agree that there are in fact a decent amount of Muslims speaking out, but not nearly enough of the major Islamic leaders, and not nearly enough considering the amount of attacks and abuse. They need more than the little guys speaking up or a few clerics or Imams.

The Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar, the greatest and most respected centre of Islamic learning in the modern world is not high enough for you? :o

Hell, my Muslim friends are the ones who explain most of these things to me! They all think women are lesser than the men and admit it. Their wives and daughters ALWAYS walk about 10 steps behind them, NEVER in front of them, and they're due a slap in the face if they dare otherwise. My friends and there experiences are from Morocco, Algeria, Jordan & Iran.

They either don't exist or are ignorant pigs of men. Not to mention slapping the face is forbidden in Islam :p

I've personally spent much of the last 10 years in Morocco, Libya, Egypt and UAE and I have yet to meet or even see a man that forces his wife to walk 10 paces behind let alone slaps her for walking in front.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 05:56 PM

My point is We are more alike than different; we should focus in those similarities; and from jafar's post it appears we are very similar on the terrorism front.

Thank you. Yes we are similar in that regard. If people would just sit back and observe for themselves rather than relying on 3rd party heresay, we would find much in common.

For example, my Jewish lawyer and I both have beards, both object to women parading in bikinis in the street in Manly, and both complain about the lack of Halal/Kosher options in Sydney. ;)

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 06:02 PM

Stephen covey wrote a book called 7 habits of highly effective people; in it he lists one as "begin with the end in sight." we tend to find what what seek; if you seek to find Islam to blame, you will find all the evidence necessary to reach that conclusion.

What I find most interesting about the America vs Islam is how staunchly conservative they both are; thy just disagree on the scope. I mean, here in America we are free to abort babies, under the auspices of personal freedom and many conservatives disagree with this--considering a liberal plight. While in Islam they may punish a woman for sowing corruption by being promiscuous; I wonder how many muslims consider this too conservative?

My point is We are more alike than different; we should focus in those similarities; and from jafar's post it appears we are very similar on the terrorism front.

As to the bold, I'm not "seeking", the facts are the facts though. If the rate of women abused is at say 15% across the world, but 50% and above in quite a few Islamic countries - that's just simply proof that abuse exists at a higher rate in those countries. If you don't want Islam blamed, and we should just blame individuals, that it's not based out of religion - then how else would we explain that the abuse of women in Islamic countries is so much higher than in other countries?

Same as terrorism. The overwhelming majority of terror attacks in this day and age are committed by Muslims. A huge majority of them and their groups take credit and quote the Quran and such. If not for the Quran, or that they are Muslims, or in an Islamic country - how else do we explain the overwhelming majority of terrorists being Muslim?

And if none of it has anything to do with Islam/Muslims - then I find it odd that these Islamic countries just happen to have so much terrorism and so much abuse of women. If just a human being thing, why is it not affecting other non-Muslim countries with the same frequency?

But I don't blame or condemn Jafar, no more than Abso & no more than my Muslim buddies here in town. I understand that there are many more Muslims not acting in violent manners, as these others are. But just because the majority are innocent of these atrocities, doesn't change the fact that minority that are guilty - are still a huge majority when looking at things on the grand scale.

Maybe it's not an Islamic thing or being a Muslim, not the Quran, not those perverting the Holy Book, not sick Imams and Clerics - maybe its the heat in some of those countries? :dunno: :lol:

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 06:04 PM

The Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar, the greatest and most respected centre of Islamic learning in the modern world is not high enough for you? :o

They either don't exist or are ignorant pigs of men. Not to mention slapping the face is forbidden in Islam :p

I've personally spent much of the last 10 years in Morocco, Libya, Egypt and UAE and I have yet to meet or even see a man that forces his wife to walk 10 paces behind let alone slaps her for walking in front.

I'm happy for Al Azhar, but what about the leaders of the countries where these problems are most prevalent? And while you may not have seen slapping of women, it exists, and much more than that, and at a higher rate, depending on which country you look at.

You mention Egypt... How do you explain such rampant abuse of women over there? And how do you explain more than 40-50% of men there admitting to abusing the women?

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-02-2012, 06:09 PM

OCA

07-02-2012, 06:12 PM

Go ahead and act as if the Religion of Peace isnt a murder inspiring bunch of bull.
I mean deliberately blowing up buses with innocent women children has never happened. Right?
A murdering scum full of muhammed bullshat didnt shoot all those soldiers at Ft. Hood. Right?
They havent made and distributed a video of their worthless asses sawing Damiel Pearls head while he was screaming. Right?
You try to defend murderers and declare they are not of your religion. While you people cheered and danced in the streets around the world after 9/11 attacks. --Tyr

Tyr, you jumped to a conclusion and were subsequently made to look like a fool, suck it up and take it like a man instead of this off topic diatribe exposing your biases.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 06:16 PM

I'm happy for Al Azhar, but what about the leaders of the countries where these problems are most prevalent?

You mean the "western friendly" secularist dictators that have plagued the Arab world for decades? Don't fret. They seem to be falling one by one.

You mention Egypt... How do you explain such rampant abuse of women over there? And how do you explain more than 40-50% of men there admitting to abusing the women?

How do you explain the rampant abuse of women in the USA?

I have over 30 employees in Egypt. If I found out any of them were abusive to women, they would be out on the street so fast, a vigorously slammed door wouldn't be able to slap them on the ass on the way out.

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 06:21 PM

You mean the "western friendly" secularist dictators that have plagued the Arab world for decades? Don't fret. They seem to be falling one by one.

How do you explain the rampant abuse of women in the USA?

I have over 30 employees in Egypt. If I found out any of them were abusive to women, they would be out on the street so fast, a vigorously slammed door wouldn't be able to slap them on the ass on the way out.

And I'm not blaming YOU, sounds like you would do the right thing. But the US is abuse free of women compared to Egypt! How do you explain like 80% of women claiming to have been being abused, and 50% of the men admitting to it? The US stats aren't even remotely close to that, not even in the same ballpark.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 06:24 PM

Ask and ye shall recieve.-Tyr

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

And the Bible says,

"kill all the male children and kill every woman who has had sexual relations with a man" (Numbers 31:17)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+31%3A17&version=HCSB

Given just the right amount of ignorance and malice, mixed with a little lack of context, I can condemn both Jews and Christians with that one. It's an easy game to play :)

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 06:27 PM

OCA

07-02-2012, 06:32 PM

Now all you have to do is mix in the many countries where Christians are actively killing as much as Muslims and where they are abusing their women on a grand scale.

Been to Appalachia lately?

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 06:33 PM

Been to Appalachia lately?

I didn't say it never happens, but some people and some religions grew out of the stone ages and actually became civilized. A few specks here and there are perverted from all religions, but Islam is MUCH more perverted and MUCH more widespread.

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-02-2012, 07:23 PM

And the Bible says,

"kill all the male children and kill every woman who has had sexual relations with a man" (Numbers 31:17)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+31%3A17&version=HCSB

Given just the right amount of ignorance and malice, mixed with a little lack of context, I can condemn both Jews and Christians with that one. It's an easy game to play :)

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/30143
All was justified according to the Koran. The Prophet words are deemed to be Allah's words and you know it..
That linked source wipes your lies and spins way.. Enjoy... -Tyr

Submitted by N. Khan (United States), Dec 18, 2005 at 12:30

Mr Mueen Later Madina Surahs, hadiths and earliest siras written by Ishaq, TabariI, Sad and Waqqidi as well as all the islamic scholars from 7th century to now confirm that every thing came in stages. Mecca surahs are all peaceful , fighting was not allowed because muslims were few and weak. In early madina suras only defensine fighting was allowed (only one aya of Surah 2). Then offensive fighting was ordered when muslims were numerous and strong .

Read the following hadiths which show the agressive jihad and violence practised by the prophet of islam.

HE HAD HIS CRITICS ASASSINATED

Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.'

Ishaq:551 "Another victim was Huwayrith. He used to insult Muhammad in Mecca. Huwayrith was put to death by Ali.

Ishaq:597 "When the Apostle returned to Medina after his raid on Ta'if, word spread that he had killed some of the men who had satirized and insulted him. The scared poets who were left, ran away in all directions.

HIS PUNISHMENTS WERE CRUEL

Ishaq 595 "The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.""

Ishaq:316 "Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to

capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive."

HE KILLED THOSE WHO REFUSED ISLAM OR LEFT ISLAM

Sunan Abu -Dawud,4390
"Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:

I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair."

Ishaq:551 The Messenger ordered Miqyas' assassination because he became a renegade by rejecting Islam."

Bukhari:V4B52N260 "The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'"

Tabari VIII:143 " He set out with fifteen men. He encountered a large force whom he summoned to Islam. They refused to respond so he killed all of them."

SURPRISE ATTACK ON VIILAGES TO GAIN BOOTY AND CAPTURED WOMEN

Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer [Prayer of Fear] near Khaybar when it was still dark. He said, ‘Allahu-Akbar!' [Allah is Greatest] ' Then the inhabitants came out running on their roads. The Prophet had their men killed; their children and woman were taken as captives."
Prophet Got 17 year old Safia as his share of booty.

Bukhari vol 3,Book46, No. 717

"Narrated Ibn Aun:
The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. (Ref: Waqqidi, Tabari)

Mr Mueenuddin , does that sound like defensive jihad to you.

aboutime

07-02-2012, 07:23 PM

jafar00

07-02-2012, 07:37 PM

Now all you have to do is mix in the many countries where Christians are actively killing as much as Muslims and where they are abusing their women on a grand scale.

I didn't say it never happens, but some people and some religions grew out of the stone ages and actually became civilized. A few specks here and there are perverted from all religions, but Islam is MUCH more perverted and MUCH more widespread.

Why do you contradict yourself? Can't you just accept that there are bad people all over the place?

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 07:41 PM

Why do you contradict yourself? Can't you just accept that there are bad people all over the place?

How did I contradict myself? I admitted that other religions do similar, but not nearly on the scale that Islam does. And I admit without hesitation that there are bad people all over the world, in all faiths - but that for whatever reason, the percentages are extraordinarily higher in Islamic countries. I'll post a follow up in a moment about abuse in mostly Egypt, but also Morocco, and please articulate after that how the US or any other modern country is similar...

aboutime

07-02-2012, 07:41 PM

Why do you contradict yourself? Can't you just accept that there are bad people all over the place?

See there. Doing exactly as some of us could have predicted. Not bothering to actually continue the discussion, but finding it much easier to just make accusations that manage (or so you think) to get you off the hook.
It's an old, familiar, liberal tactic you are trying to use. But, unfortunately. It just didn't work.

aboutime

07-02-2012, 07:42 PM

Been to Appalachia lately?

Changed the subject lately?

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 07:52 PM

I would love to see someone explain all of the following to me, and show me how this is just a coincidence and has nothing to do with Islam...

Morocco: Policies concerning violence against women; police response to cases of spousal abuse; recourse available to battered women

Although a woman can file for a judicial divorce if her husband physically abuses her, these cases are lengthy and complicated (Country Reports 2001 4 Mar. 2002, sec. 5). The woman must provide two witnesses to the abuse and, "if the court finds against the woman, she is returned to the husband's home" (ibid.). Furthermore, the law is reportedly lenient toward men who commit crimes against their wives (ibid.).

For women wishing to divorce abusive spouses, Human Rights Watch states the following:

Unless divorce is preceded by reconciliation attempts and there is a history of abuse proven by medical as well as police or court documentation, a woman's ability to escape an abusive husband by way of judicial divorce is severely restricted. Therefore, by failing to recognize physical acts of discipline as abusive, and by denying women adequate legal recourse to remedy such violence, the Moroccan legal system allows husbands to abuse their wives with impunity (HRW 20 Mar. 2001).

Consequently, most cases of domestic violence go unreported (Global Women's Rights 2 Apr. 2002; Freedom House 15 June 2001; Country Reports 2001 4 Mar. 2002, sect. 5).

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,QUERYRESPONSE,,MAR,3df4be674,0.html

Morocco

Morocco, being one of the poorest countries in the Maghreb due to misadministration, has made astonishingly little effort in promoting women's right. Thus, women's situation in Morocco remains among the worst on the continent. Women's rights organisations are however active, trying to address the huge barriers for women in traditional society, further enhanced by backward legislation.

Spousal violence against women is common. While physical abuse is a legal ground for divorce, a court only grants it if the woman is able to provide two witnesses to the abuse. Even medical certificates are not sufficient. Sexual assaults often go unreported because of the stigma attached to the loss of virginity. While not provided for by law, victim's families may offer rapists the opportunity to marry their victims in order to preserve the honor of the family.

Young girls are much less likely to be sent to school than are boys. They are often exploited as domestic servants.

Under Islamic law and tradition, rather than asking for a divorce, a man simply may repudiate his wife outside of court. A woman seeking a divorce has few practical alternatives. She may offer her husband money to agree to a divorce (known as a khol'a divorce). The husband must agree to the divorce and is allowed to specify the amount to be paid, without limit.

Under the Moudouwana (Code of Personal Status), women inherit only half as much as male heirs. When a woman inherits property, male relatives may pressure her to relinquish her interest. A woman also may file for a judicial divorce if her husband takes a second wife, if he abandons her, or if he physically abuses her. However, divorce procedures in these cases are lengthy and complicated.

Under the Criminal Code, women generally are accorded the same treatment as men, but this is not the case for family and estate law, which is based on the Moudouwana. Under the Moudouwana, women inherit only half as much as male heirs. Moreover, even where the law provides for equal status, cultural norms often prevent a woman from exercising those rights. For example, when a woman inherits property, male relatives may pressure her to relinquish her interest.

Women suffer various forms of legal and cultural discrimination. The civil law status of women is governed by the Moudouwana, or Code of Personal Status, which is based on the Malikite school of Islamic law. Although the Moudouwana was reformed in 1993, women's groups still complain of unequal treatment, particularly under the laws governing marriage, divorce, and inheritance.

Spousal violence is common. Although a battered wife has the right to complain to the police, as a practical matter, she would do so only if prepared to bring criminal charges. While physical abuse is a legal ground for divorce, a court only grants it if the woman is able to provide two witnesses to the abuse. Even medical certificates are not sufficient. If the court finds against the woman, she is returned to her husband's home. Consequently, few women report abuses to the authorities.

The Criminal Code provides for severe punishment for men convicted of rape or sexually assaulting a woman or a girl. The defendants in such cases bear the burden of proving their innocence. However, sexual assaults often go unreported because of the stigma attached to the loss of virginity. While not provided for by law, victim's families may offer rapists the opportunity to marry their victims in order to preserve the honor of the family. The law is more lenient toward men with respect to crimes committed against their wives; for example, a light sentence may be accorded a man who murders his wife after catching her in the act of adultery.

http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/profiles/morocco_women.htm

Algeria

Spousal abuse is common. There are no specific laws against spousal rape. Rape is illegal, and in principle a spouse could be charged under the law. However, there are strong societal pressures against a woman seeking legal redress against her spouse for rape, and there are no reports of the law being applied in such cases.

The 1984 Family Code, based in large part on Shari 'a, treats women as minors under the legal guardianship of a husband or male relative.

A woman must obtain a father's approval to marry.

Muslim women are prohibited from marrying non-Muslims; Muslim men may marry non-Muslim women.

Although the 1990 Labor Law bans sexual discrimination in the workplace, the leaders of women's organizations report that violations are commonplace.

Islamic extremists often specifically target women. There are numerous instances of women being killed and mutilated in massacres.

The law does not prohibit specifically trafficking in persons. Armed terrorist groups frequently kidnaps young women, rape them for weeks at a time, and keep them as sex slaves for group leaders and other members.

Some aspects of the law, and many traditional social practices, discriminate against women. The 1984 Family Code, based in large part on Shari' a, treats women as minors under the legal guardianship of a husband or male relative. For example, a woman must obtain a father's approval to marry. Divorce is difficult for a wife to obtain except in cases of abandonment or the husband's conviction for a serious crime. Husbands generally obtain the right to the family's home in the case of divorce. Custody of the children normally goes to the mother, but she cannot enroll them in a particular school or take them out of the country without the father's authorization.

Women's rights advocates assert that spousal abuse is common, but there are no reliable studies regarding its extent. Spousal abuse is more frequent in rural than urban areas, especially among less-educated persons. There are no specific laws against spousal rape. Rape is illegal, and in principle a spouse could be charged under the law. However, there are strong societal pressures against a woman seeking legal redress against her spouse for rape, and there are no reports of the law being applied in such cases. Battered women must obtain medical certification of the physical effects of an assault before they lodge a complaint with the police. However, because of societal pressures, women frequently are reluctant to endure this process. There are no adequate facilities offering safe haven for abused women. Women's rights groups have experienced difficulty in drawing attention to spousal abuse as an important social problem, largely due to societal attitudes. There are several rape crisis centers run by women's groups, but they have few resources. In August 1998, the Government released figures that indicated that the whereabouts of 319 women remain unknown and that there were 24 reports by women of rape. Most human rights groups believe that the actual number is much higher. There is a rape crisis center that specializes in caring for women who are victims of rape by terrorists.

During the year, Islamic extremists often specifically targeted women. There were numerous instances of women being killed and mutilated in massacres. As many as 80 percent of the victims of massacres were women and children.

The law does not prohibit specifically trafficking in persons. Armed terrorist groups frequently kidnaps young women, rape them for weeks at a time, and keep them as sex slaves for group leaders and other members.

Child abuse is a problem. Laws against child abuse have not led to notable numbers of prosecutions against offenders. NGO's that specialize in care of children cite an increase in domestic violence aimed at children, which they attribute to the "culture of violence" developed during the years since 1992 and the social dislocations caused by the movement of rural families to the cities to escape terrorist violence. Those NGO's have educational programs aimed at reducing the level of violence, but lack funding.

http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/profiles/algeria_women.htm

EGYPT: Abused women reluctant to come forward

CAIRO, 16 February 2006 (IRIN) - Despite the opening of the first safe-house for women in Cairo, few are choosing to leave their abusive marriages due to the social stigma and financial insecurity they would face.

Oum Mohammed was married when she was 16. “From the day I married him, he hit me over matters big and small,” she says of her husband.

“He told me that all women should be beaten. I didn’t protest because I was afraid he’d throw me and my children into the street,” she adds. “I’d seen my father hit my mother, and in every house in the alley a man hits a woman.”

Oum Mohammed’s story is just one of 700 case studies that the Association for the Development and Enhancement of Women (ADEW), a local NGO, has collected over the past several years.

Hearing stories like these convinced ADEW that there was an urgent need for a shelter for women who are victims of violence.

According to the NGO, domestic abuse is common in Egypt. A 2001 survey conducted in low-income neighbourhoods found that 96 percent of women had been beaten at least once by their husbands.

Such violence is often condoned by society, or even by the victims, experts say.

A majority of the women surveyed in a government study, for example, said a husband had the right to beat his wife if she talked to him disrespectfully, talked to another man, spent too much money or refused her husband sex.

If a woman goes to the police station to report domestic abuse, the police adopt “the cultural perspective that the man has the right to do it”, says ADEW officer Bahira El-Gohary.

http://www.irinnews.org/Report/26139/EGYPT-Abused-women-reluctant-to-come-forward

Domestic Violence High in Egypt, Affecting Women's Reproductive Health

(May 2010) Violence against women is a costly and pervasive public health problem and a violation of human rights. In Egypt, a third of women are physically abused by their husbands, according to the 2005 Egypt Demographic and Health Survey (DHS). Most victims suffer silently and don’t seek help to prevent or stop the violence because they think it is part of life or they are embarrassed by the abuse.

In 1996, the World Health Assembly declared violence against women to be a major public health problem that urgently needed to be addressed by governments and health organizations. Gender-based violence causes a host of health problems that drain health systems' resources, limit women's growth and productivity, and hinder governments from achieving their national goals related to health and women’s empowerment. The impact on women's health, in particular, is well documented. Domestic violence is a major cause of disability and death among women worldwide, and puts women at a higher risk for unintended pregnancies and sexually transmitted infections, including HIV/AIDS. Gender-based violence has also been linked to increased risk of gynecological disorders and pregnancy complications, and violence during pregnancy can cause serious harm to both the mother and fetus.

Violence against women in Egypt, particularly spousal violence, is rooted in the subordinate position of women in the family and society. The stigma against divorced women, for example, puts Egyptian women who had a previous marriage at highest risk of abuse; they are twice as likely as women who are in their first marriage to be physically abused by their husband recently (during the 12 months prior to the DHS).

Poor and less-educated women—who generally tend to marry at a younger age—are more likely to experience spousal violence than those who marry later and have more education. Gender-based violence is more common among less privileged women: Women belonging to the lowest wealth quintile are more than twice as likely as those in the highest wealth quintile to experience spousal violence (Figure 1). But no group of women is immune to the violence: 14 percent of women who have completed at least secondary education reported having experienced spousal abuse.

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2010/domesticviolence-egypt.aspx

Large numbers of women in Egypt face violence and harassment, according to a new report

Violence and harassment against women seems to be on the increase in Egypt.

According to a report by the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights, 72% of married women and 94% of girls say they are regularly subject to such abuse.

The annual report also notes that Egyptian women still find it hard to reach decision-making positions at work.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/2010/12/101227_egyptwomenabuse.shtml

Legally brutalised

Women in Egypt have no way out of violent marriages in a society where beatings are acceptable and their rights systematically violated, reports Brian Whitaker

Brutal husbands can be a problem anywhere in the world, but in some countries domestic violence is so common that it's almost an institution.

A survey conducted for the Egyptian government a few years ago found that one woman in three had been beaten at some time by her husband. Of those women, 45% had been beaten at least once in the past year and 17% had been beaten three or more times during the same period.

Shocking as this may seem, most Egyptian women regard beating as a normal and more or less acceptable part of life. Almost 86% of the women surveyed thought husbands were justified in hitting their wives sometimes, and a large majority said a refusal to have sex was sufficient grounds for beating.

The survey also showed the percentage of women aged 20-29 who thought beating was justified for a range of other domestic "offences":
"Talking back" to a husband: 70%
Talking to another man: 65%
Spending too much money: 42%
Burning the dinner: 26%

Violent husbands can generally avoid prosecution on religious grounds, because the Egyptian penal code excludes acts committed "in good faith, pursuant to a right determined by virtue of the Shari'a" (Islamic law).

Egyptian law also allows men - literally - to get away with murder. If a husband kills his wife in the act of committing adultery, it's only a misdemeanour but if a wife kills her husband for the same reason, then of course that's murder.

Adultery, incidentally, is defined in Egyptian law to the husband's advantage. For a man, it doesn't count as adultery unless he does it in the marital home. For a woman, it's adultery no matter where she does it.

Escaping from a violent marriage is no easy matter for women in Egypt, as a report issued today by Human Rights Watch shows.

"An Egyptian woman seeking a divorce finds herself between a rock and a hard place," said LaShawn Jefferson, executive director of the organisation's women's rights division. "Egypt's discriminatory divorce system condemns an untold number of women to violent marriages. The fact that women have no easy way out allows some husbands to abuse their wives with virtual impunity."

Women, since they are considered inherently less wise than men, must also submit to compulsory mediation if they want a divorce.

One retaliatory device often used by men when they are sued for divorce is an "obedience" order. This obliges a wife who has left home to return to her husband or forfeit her right to alimony.

In one case cited by Human Rights Watch, Mona Hanan, a 31-year-old woman, contested an obedience notice in court. She had left home together with her eight-year-old son because her husband - who had married a second wife - provided only one Egyptian pound a day (less than 10p) to support them. Although this was obviously an unreasonably small amount of money the court dismissed Ms Hanan's objection to the obedience notice, making her ineligible for alimony.

Courts also sometimes reject women's divorce claims for absurdly bureaucratic reasons. In one particularly surreal case involving a battered wife earlier this year, the judge gave this ruling:
"Whereas all the facts for the case were established by the petitioner demanding that the court grant her a divorce from the respondent based on physical abuse ... the documents used by the petitioner to prove her case were still lacking some supportive papers such as the original copy of the marriage contract."

The Egyptian legal system - like others in the Arab world - is designed by men, for the benefit of men, and almost entirely operated by men.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/30/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker

Violence Against Women in Egypt

Through over 10 years of providing needy women with legal aid and consultation through our Legal Empowerment and Aid project, ECWR has learned that women in Egypt are often subject to violence not only from family members and community members, but also by agents of the state, including the police supposedly tasked with the protection of all citizens. In addition, women are constantly subjected to violence in the form of sexual harassment and abuse on the street, and approximately ninety-seven percent of Egyptian women are the victims of female genital mutilation. Women’s right to lead a life free of violence is not widely internalized within Egyptian society, resulting in lack of reporting by victims of violence, lack of perpetrators’ awareness of the criminality of violence, lack of response from police and the legal system supposedly tasked with enforcing laws prohibiting violence, and perpetration of violence by authorities themselves against women in order to pressure their male relatives. Violence against women in Egypt can be described along the broad categories: violence committed by institutions of the state, domestic violence, female genital mutilation (FGM), and the structural violence that deprives women of equal participation and a chance to change the conditions that perpetuate the other forms of violence.

Violence Committed by Institutions of the State

Although laws prohibiting violence exist, not only is there a problem of enforcement, but there has also been a disturbing trend of deliberate violations by agents of the state. Some Egyptian police deliberately use women as
pawns in their actions against male relatives suspected of crimes. One such case occurred after the October 2004 terrorist attack on the Red Sea Coast when police and state security agents arrested hundreds of people living in nearby towns. For those they could not find, they systematically subjected their female relatives to arrests, sexual and physical abuse, torture, harassment and public humiliation. Another, more high-profile occurrence was the physical and sexual abuse of women perpetrated by or without interference from security officials during the May 25, 2005 referendum vote.

This shows that not only do authorities routinely fail to enforce legal protections against violence for women, including FGM, but they also perpetrate it themselves in a systematic fashion. ECWR sees these violations as a
consequence of lack of awareness of laws, concepts of human rights and authorities’ role in protecting women, as well as a serious lack of oversight.

Domestic Violence

ECWR has learned from our work with women that despite the existence of laws protecting women from violence, these laws are often not well known either by citizens or authorities, contributing to a lack of reporting of violations, a lack of enforcement or lenient sentencing for those convicted. Some cultural values that imply that violence against women is the prerogative of husbands or fathers contribute to this problem, as does the accepting portrayal of violence against women in the media. Another factor preventing women from reporting violence is a general fear of engaging with the police, the legal system and the government. Also, current Egyptian media treats violence against women as acceptable and legitimate. This has a strong effect on millions of Egyptians, men and women alike, and contributes to cultural barriers that seriously impede actions aimed at reducing the incidence of violence against women, legislation and enforcement. Raising journalists’ awareness about the issue of violence, women’s and human rights and their role and responsibilities in stopping it, is critical to changing the societal perspective on violence that will either facilitate or inhibit programs to eliminate it.

Female Genital Mutilation

FGM in Egypt is reported to affect 90-97% of women. The practice ranges in severity from small cuts to the more rare complete removal of external genitalia followed by stitching of the vaginal opening. The origins of FGM in Egypt predate the arrival of both Christianity and Islam and are not part of the requirements of either religion. However, due to deeply ingrained cultural practices and its linkages to tradition, FGM has taken on religious dimensions in addition to its complex social function and association with purity, chastity and marriageability.

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/ngocontribute/Egyptian%20Center%20for%20Women_s%20Rights.pdf

jafar00

07-02-2012, 07:57 PM

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-02-2012, 07:59 PM

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/30143
All was justified according to the Koran. The Prophet words are deemed to be Allah's words and you know it..
That linked source wipes your lies and spins way.. Enjoy... -Tyr

Submitted by N. Khan (United States), Dec 18, 2005 at 12:30

Mr Mueen Later Madina Surahs, hadiths and earliest siras written by Ishaq, TabariI, Sad and Waqqidi as well as all the islamic scholars from 7th century to now confirm that every thing came in stages. Mecca surahs are all peaceful , fighting was not allowed because muslims were few and weak. In early madina suras only defensine fighting was allowed (only one aya of Surah 2). Then offensive fighting was ordered when muslims were numerous and strong .

Read the following hadiths which show the agressive jihad and violence practised by the prophet of islam.

HE HAD HIS CRITICS ASASSINATED

Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.'

Ishaq:551 "Another victim was Huwayrith. He used to insult Muhammad in Mecca. Huwayrith was put to death by Ali.

Ishaq:597 "When the Apostle returned to Medina after his raid on Ta'if, word spread that he had killed some of the men who had satirized and insulted him. The scared poets who were left, ran away in all directions.

HIS PUNISHMENTS WERE CRUEL

Ishaq 595 "The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.""

Ishaq:316 "Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to

capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive."

HE KILLED THOSE WHO REFUSED ISLAM OR LEFT ISLAM

Sunan Abu -Dawud,4390
"Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:

I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair."

Ishaq:551 The Messenger ordered Miqyas' assassination because he became a renegade by rejecting Islam."

Bukhari:V4B52N260 "The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'"

Tabari VIII:143 " He set out with fifteen men. He encountered a large force whom he summoned to Islam. They refused to respond so he killed all of them."

SURPRISE ATTACK ON VIILAGES TO GAIN BOOTY AND CAPTURED WOMEN

Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer [Prayer of Fear] near Khaybar when it was still dark. He said, ‘Allahu-Akbar!' [Allah is Greatest] ' Then the inhabitants came out running on their roads. The Prophet had their men killed; their children and woman were taken as captives."
Prophet Got 17 year old Safia as his share of booty.

Bukhari vol 3,Book46, No. 717

"Narrated Ibn Aun:
The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. (Ref: Waqqidi, Tabari)

Mr Mueenuddin , does that sound like defensive jihad to you.

Just in case our friend "accidently" missed this refutation! ^^^^^^^ -Tyr

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 08:00 PM

I'm not spreading the hate. I'm defending against it.

I can't speak for others, but I'm speaking out against terrorists and those who abuse women. I hope you aren't trying to defend that too.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 08:18 PM

See there. Doing exactly as some of us could have predicted. Not bothering to actually continue the discussion, but finding it much easier to just make accusations that manage (or so you think) to get you off the hook.
It's an old, familiar, liberal tactic you are trying to use. But, unfortunately. It just didn't work.

Who says I am a liberal? Why does it have to be either liberal or conservative for you?

I would love to see someone explain all of the following to me, and show me how this is just a coincidence and has nothing to do with Islam...

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,QUERYRESPONSE,,MAR,3df4be674,0.html

http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/profiles/morocco_women.htm

http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/profiles/algeria_women.htm

http://www.irinnews.org/Report/26139/EGYPT-Abused-women-reluctant-to-come-forward

http://www.prb.org/Articles/2010/domesticviolence-egypt.aspx

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/2010/12/101227_egyptwomenabuse.shtml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/30/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/ngocontribute/Egyptian%20Center%20for%20Women_s%20Rights.pdf

Actually, many of your links explain that Islam has nothing to do with the subjects at hand, but that man made laws do.

I can't speak much for Morocco but as for Egypt, you are forgetting that the country was ruled with an iron fist by a brutal secular dictator for decades. It's no wonder their laws were screwed. I hope they end up with some sharia back in their courts once the constitution is re-written etc..

On the subject of FGM in Egypt, you may have missed the Egyptian Grand Mufti's fatwa?

1. Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)
In the name of God the all merciful

The international conference of scholars concerning a ban on abuse of the female body was held on 1st and 2nd Du al-Qi’dah 1427 of the Hijri, corresponding to the 22nd and 23rd November 2006, in the conference facilities at Al-Azhar University. An array of research work was presented. Once scientists, Islamic scholars, experts and activists from civil rights organisations in Egypt, Europe and Africa had been heard, the following recommendations were issued:

God gave people dignity. In the Qur’an God says: “We have dignified the sons of Adam”. Therefore, God forbids any harm coming to man, irrespective of social status and gender.
Genital circumcision is a deplorable, inherited custom, which is practiced in some societies and is copied by some Muslims in several countries. There are no written grounds for this custom in the Qur’an with regard to an authentic tradition of the Prophet.
The female genital circumcision practiced today harms women psychologically and physically. Therefore, the practice must be stopped in support of one of the highest values of Islam, namely to do no harm to another – in accordance with the commandment of the Prophet Mohammed “Accept no harm and do no harm to another”. Moreover, this is seen as punishable aggression against humankind.
The conference calls on Muslims to end this deplorable custom in accordance with the teachings of Islam, which forbid injuring another in any form.
The participants of the conference also called on international and religious institutions and establishments to concentrate their efforts on educating and instructing the population. This concerns particularly the basic rules of hygienic and medicine, which must be maintained for women so that this deplorable custom is no longer practiced.
The conference reminds the educational establishments and the media that they have an implicit duty to educate about the harm this custom brings and its devastating consequences for society. This will contribute to stopping the custom of mutilating the female body.
The conference calls on the legislative organs to pass a law, which bans the practice of this gruesome custom and declares it a crime, irrespective of whether this concerns the perpetrator or the initiator.
Furthermore, the conference calls on international institutions and organisations to provide help in all regions where this gruesome custom is practiced, which will contribute to its elimination.

Signature:
Professor Ali Gom’a Grand Mufti of Egypt 24/11/2006

A lot of bad things are happening in the world, and often in Africa and in Arab countries. Don't make the mistake of equating the actions of bad people with Islam just because they happen to be Arabs. Especially where their actions contradict Islam.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 08:20 PM

Just in case our friend "accidently" missed this refutation! ^^^^^^^ -Tyr

See above.

I can't speak for others, but I'm speaking out against terrorists and those who abuse women. I hope you aren't trying to defend that too.

We have something in common then don't we? :)

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

07-02-2012, 08:22 PM

I can't speak for others, but I'm speaking out against terrorists and those who abuse women. I hope you aren't trying to defend that too.

Jim, he may have a true believer's heart. If so , then he is surely a good and honorable man of peace! He needs to open his eyes about what has happened to his religion. I have made NO acusation against him , I have spoke directly against Islam and its well known mission to force all the world to bow to Allah! Forced by the murder, terror and other means to enslave all into that religion = convert or die or be enslaved, he knows well that is Islam's stated goal and commandment.. -Tyr

jimnyc

07-02-2012, 08:35 PM

We have something in common then don't we? :)

I suppose we do then, which is a good thing. Outside of the lawlessness, I have no issues with Islam as I hope they won't take issue with me being Catholic. My Muslim friends are a varied bunch. I will say though that it appears all have accepted me as a friend regardless of my faith. They've invited me into their homes and lives. Honestly though, I feel a little hesitance from them at times, and then they start talking in Arabic. But honestly again, I guess it's no different than me having a little hesitation about them at times. It's a learning experience for both of us. All very kind and friendly. But the owner of our Mobil gas station, who owns 4 other stations, and 3 MetroPCS stores, is a cheap fuck! He's from Jordan and is loaded. But he had me fix his home computer once and gave me dried peas as payment! And I fix his computer at least once a month at the station, and I generally get a cup of coffee or a vitamin water for my troubles! But he is a good guy. He is the one I speak of that has his wife, mother and daughters ALWAYS walk behind him. It's not unheard of if you search it, but I won't argue it's everywhere, probably only from certain areas of certain countries.

One of them is not a very good practicing Muslim, although he'll perfectly fast for Ramadan, and say his prayers and follow most Islamic tradtions and law... He's a ladies man looking with lust for sure, and he can drink a LOT of Tequila and still drive! LOL He makes me promise not to tell his boss about all the things he eats, drinks, smokes... He's Moroccan...

OCA

07-02-2012, 08:38 PM

Changed the subject lately?

Been to Appalachia lately? Or am I hitting too close to home?

jafar00

07-02-2012, 09:07 PM

Jim, he may have a true believer's heart. If so , then he is surely a good and honorable man of peace! He needs to open his eyes about what has happened to his religion. I have made NO acusation against him , I have spoke directly against Islam and its well known mission to force all the world to bow to Allah! Forced by the murder, terror and other means to enslave all into that religion = convert or die or be enslaved, he knows well that is Islam's stated goal and commandment.. -Tyr

Thanks. But... :)

لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ

That is a very important phrase from the Qur'aan. "There is no compulsion in religion".

You cannot force a man to have faith. Forced conversions are false and just result in hypocrites.

jafar00

07-02-2012, 09:31 PM

One of them is not a very good practicing Muslim, although he'll perfectly fast for Ramadan, and say his prayers and follow most Islamic tradtions and law... He's a ladies man looking with lust for sure, and he can drink a LOT of Tequila and still drive! LOL He makes me promise not to tell his boss about all the things he eats, drinks, smokes... He's Moroccan...

Sounds like Christians that call themselves Christian because they take Christmas and Easter off but never read the Bible, pray or go to Church ;)