Obama admin cuts off Arizona from all immg-law enforcement, leaving state vulnerable

[Little-Acorn]

The Obama administration was quick to react after the Supreme Court announced its ruling that Arizona police could legally ask persons stopped for other matters, about their immigration status.

Within hours of the ruling, the Dept of Homeland Security announced it was revoking its previous agreements to cooperate with Arizona law enforcement personnel in immigration-related arrests and other matters. And they made it clear that, if Arizona police found a person who was an illegal alien and called Federal authorities as they now must, the Federal authorities would not respond to the call.
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2012/06/25/homeland-security-revokes-287g-immigration-check-agreements-in-arizona/

At the same time as the announcement that Feds would not respond to calls about illegal aliens in Arizona, the Obama administration also announced a new "hot line" to take calls about Arizona law enforcement personnel dealing with illegal aliens. The purpose of the new "hot line" was not to respond to the presence of the illegal alien, but to investigate the behavior of the Arizona police officer, they said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/justice-dept-sets-up-hotline-for-civil-rights-concerns-on-immigration-verification-in-arizona/2012/06/25/gJQAU1zf2V_story.html

It quickly became clear that the Obama administration, in addition to its general policy of not enforcing immigration laws that had been passed by Congress and signed into law, was singling out Arizona in response to the state's pleas for aid in coping with the flood of illegal aliens that had deluged the state for years, and its attempts to enforce the laws that the Federal government had not enforced.

Yesterday's action by the Obama administration made it very clear what states could expect if they dared to challenge the government's policy of not enforcing Federal laws.

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia wrote in his Dissenting Opinion yesterday:
"...to say, as the Court does, that Arizona contradicts federal law by enforcing applications of the Immigration Act that the President declines to enforce, boggles the mind.

"...So the issue is a stark one. Are the sovereign States at the mercy of the Federal Executive’s refusal to enforce the Nation’s immigration laws?

"A good way of answering that question is to ask: Would the States conceivably have entered into the Union if the Constitution itself contained the Court’s holding? Today’s judgment surely fails that test." - Antonin Scalia, U.S. Supreme Court, June 25, 2012

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/11-182#writing-11-182_CONCUR_4

[CSM]

This is jsut the tip of the iceberg. You can bet a nickel to a donut that this tactic will be used in other situations as well.

[Little-Acorn]

All I can figure is, Obama is trying for the votes of a relatively small minority who support open borders and free admission of illegal aliens.

He is unaware of, or perhaps indifferent to, the reaction of a much larger majority: The people who feel Federal laws are not merely the plaything of whatever regime happens to be in power, but are laws the government is REQUIRED to enforce, even if they disagree with the previous administration who passed them.

I suppose it will take another election (beyond the 2010 one) to remind Obama that the majority is not to be brushed off with the indifference he is showing.

[Kathianne]

This thread is already covered on your thread from yesterday:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?35703-Supreme-Court-upholds-AZ-immigration-law-status-checks-strikes-down-other-parts&p=560405#post560405

[Kathianne]

This thread is already covered on your thread from yesterday:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?35703-Supreme-Court-upholds-AZ-immigration-law-status-checks-strikes-down-other-parts&p=560405#post560405

[Little-Acorn]

This thread is already covered on your thread from yesterday:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?35703-Supreme-Court-upholds-AZ-immigration-law-status-checks-strikes-down-other-parts&p=560405#post560405

Since it concerns a different subject (Obama admin political retaliation) from the one in that thread (Supreme Court ruling), it deserves its own thread.

[Thunderknuckles]

It's the Federal government's job to to secure our borders against illegal immigration and not only have they explicitly stated they will not perform their job, they will actively handicap every sovereign state that even so much as attempts to assist the Federal Gov't in this matter which they have every legal right to do.
I've never been fanatically anti-Obama but every day I become more so with actions like this. This is just insanity.

[ConHog]

It's the Federal government's job to to secure our borders against illegal immigration and not only have they explicitly stated they will not perform their job, they will actively handicap every sovereign state that even so much as attempts to assist the Federal Gov't in this matter which they have every legal right to do.
I've never been fanatically anti-Obama but every day I become more so with actions like this. This is just insanity.

If I were Jan Brewer I'd order AZ LEO to hold all suspected illegals until such time as the federal government verifies that they are not illegals.

[Thunderknuckles]

If I were Jan Brewer I'd order AZ LEO to hold all suspected illegals until such time as the federal government verifies that they are not illegals.
Don't think they can right? Can't they legally hold them for only 48 hours and have to let them go if ICE doesn't deal with them?
I seem to remember a couple of illegals being shipped back home with $100K in their pockets after suing a state for holding them longer than 48 hours

[ConHog]

Don't think they can right? Can't they legally hold them for only 48 hours and have to let them go if ICE doesn't deal with them?
I seem to remember a couple of illegals being shipped back home with $100K in their pockets after suing a state for holding them longer than 48 hours

I'd have to ask my wife when she gets home. How could a state be sued for the federal government failing to do their job would be my argument though.

by the way, per the 11th Amendment


The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.


The illegal aliens shouldn't have the ability to sue states anyway. But that's a topic for the COTUS forum, one I intend to start to tonight unless someone beats me to it.

[Mr. P]

If I were Jan Brewer I'd order AZ LEO to hold all suspected illegals until such time as the federal government verifies that they are not illegals.

Sure, but at what cost to the tax payers?

I've ask a Judge about this Once. Why do you release these folks? She said, they can keep em until ICE comes but it's AT the expense of the local Gov. ICE never or seldom comes so they cut their losses and release em. But only after bail/bond etc is posted for whatever they were arrested for to start with. The 48 hr deal is a limit for first appearance hearings, nothing more.

[ConHog]

Sure, but at what cost to the tax payers?

I've ask a Judge about this Once. Why do you release these folks? She said, they can keep em until ICE comes but it's AT the expense of the local Gov. ICE never or seldom comes so they cut their losses and release em. But only after bail/bond etc is posted for whatever they were arrested for to start with. The 48 hr deal is a limit for first appearance hearings, nothing more.

I could be wrong, but don't they have a tent prison in AZ?

[Mr. P]

I could be wrong, but don't they have a tent prison in AZ?

I have no idea, but they still have to feed em, guard em an such, right?
It cost $$

[ConHog]

I have no idea, but they still have to feed em, guard em an such, right?
It cost $$

Sure it costs money, but so does the alternative; and the fact is that the Administration would surrender after about a month of seeing a tent farm full of illegals that the feds refuse to process on FoxNews every night for a month.

[Mr. P]

Sure it costs money, but so does the alternative; and the fact is that the Administration would surrender after about a month of seeing a tent farm full of illegals that the feds refuse to process on FoxNews every night for a month.

Not arguing..just stating why the illegals are not held now until the Fed decides to pick em up IF they ever do. Most of the time they don't in a reasonable time, so they get released due to incarceration costs, space available etc. It's common throughout the U.S.A.

[ConHog]

Not arguing..just stating why the illegals are not held now until the Fed decides to pick em up IF they ever do. Most of the time they don't in a reasonable time, so they get released due to incarceration costs, space available etc. It's common throughout the U.S.A.

Sure, I'm just saying that in retaliation for Obama's latest, that is how AZ should react.

[DragonStryk72]

Not arguing..just stating why the illegals are not held now until the Fed decides to pick em up IF they ever do. Most of the time they don't in a reasonable time, so they get released due to incarceration costs, space available etc. It's common throughout the U.S.A.

Here's a thought: Charge the ICE officers who do nothing with gross criminal negligence, and their bosses who give them the order with conspiracy to commit. Won't even need to do it more than a few times before it does its job.

[ConHog]

Here's a thought: Charge the ICE officers who do nothing with gross criminal negligence, and their bosses who give them the order with conspiracy to commit. Won't even need to do it more than a few times before it does its job.

What gross negligence? I understand what you're saying and agree with the sentiment, but any decent lawyer would get that thrown out in a heart beat, your talking about what is the equivalent of a state trooper refusing to write speeding tickets.

[logroller]

Here's a thought: Charge the ICE officers who do nothing with gross criminal negligence, and their bosses who give them the order with conspiracy to commit. Won't even need to do it more than a few times before it does its job.
I forget the legal term, but you can't sue an officer regarding their duties. Immunity something or another...it's an administrative law thing.

[ConHog]

I forget the legal term, but you can't sue an officer regarding their duties. Immunity something or another...it's an administrative law thing.

you could possibly sue them in civil court, good luck proving damages; but you would never EVER win a criminal conviction.

[Mr. P]

Here's a thought: Charge the ICE officers who do nothing with gross criminal negligence, and their bosses who give them the order with conspiracy to commit. Won't even need to do it more than a few times before it does its job.

If negligence were the issue, yes. My understanding is that ICE is understaffed.

So IMO, they prioritize I guess. Pick an illegal up from jail or bust another who is not plus all the rest of what they are tasked to do? I donno.

Hey, there's a bunch of jobs for Bambam can create!

Interesting, create a problem through lack of border enforcement then create jobs to solve it. :laugh:

It would be funny, but this lack of man power and enforcement preceded Obama. Just sayin

[DragonStryk72]

What gross negligence? I understand what you're saying and agree with the sentiment, but any decent lawyer would get that thrown out in a heart beat, your talking about what is the equivalent of a state trooper refusing to write speeding tickets.

They know that crimes are being committed which are specifically within their purview, and are choosing to do nothing. That's negligence, CH. Doing it on the epic scale that it is being done counts for gross. Conspiracy for the fact that it's planned.

No, we're talking about the equivalent of a local police officer refusing to remove a squatter from your house who you have reported they are there illegally, but also getting you in jail if you make any attempt to evict him from the premises.

[ConHog]

They know that crimes are being committed which are specifically within their purview, and are choosing to do nothing. That's negligence, CH. Doing it on the epic scale that it is being done counts for gross. Conspiracy for the fact that it's planned.

No, we're talking about the equivalent of a local police officer refusing to remove a squatter from your house who you have reported they are there illegally, but also getting you in jail if you make any attempt to evict him from the premises.

come on now, that comparison is so weak. Being in this country illegally isn't even remotely equivelant to someone being on your private property illegally. Hence the difference in punishment for the two offenses.

[SassyLady]

come on now, that comparison is so weak. Being in this country illegally isn't even remotely equivelant to someone being on your private property illegally. Hence the difference in punishment for the two offenses.

What if the person is squatting in my vacation house and I'm not there so the squatter is not an immediate danger to me? Will they not suffer the same consequences as if they come into the home I'm currently living in?

What difference does it make if the "illegal" is in my house or not .... aren't they still "illegal"?

[DragonStryk72]

I forget the legal term, but you can't sue an officer regarding their duties. Immunity something or another...it's an administrative law thing.

Except they aren't performing their duties. So fine, they get charged with dereliction of duty.

[ConHog]

What if the person is squatting in my vacation house and I'm not there so the squatter is not an immediate danger to me? Will they not suffer the same consequences as if they come into the home I'm currently living in?

What difference does it make if the "illegal" is in my house or not .... aren't they still "illegal"?

It doesnt matter if youre in danger or not. It only matters that its private property. The us as a whole is not private property.

[DragonStryk72]

come on now, that comparison is so weak. Being in this country illegally isn't even remotely equivelant to someone being on your private property illegally. Hence the difference in punishment for the two offenses.

And speeding tickets was dead on balls? Wasn't about the specific crime, CH, it's about the cops refusing to get the criminal once it's reported. That's negligent.

[ConHog]

Except they aren't performing their duties. So fine, they get charged with dereliction of duty.

The only person you might charge with that is obama himself. Not the bootw on the ground

[SassyLady]

The only person you might charge with that is obama himself. Not the bootw on the ground

You know what ... soldiers are supposed to follow orders .... legal orders. Why would a cop go against what he knows is the legal thing to do regardless of what Obama says?

[ConHog]

You know what ... soldiers are supposed to follow orders .... legal orders. Why would a cop go against what he knows is the legal thing to do regardless of what Obama says?

Because cops arent soldiers and it isn't illegal for a cop to not make an arrest. They use discretion all the time.

[DragonStryk72]

The only person you might charge with that is obama himself. Not the bootw on the ground

Okay.

[logroller]

Found this, from a Arizona court no less.


The nature of an administrative officer’s duty determines if s/he is entitled to immunity from personal liability. Where public officials are acting within the scope of their duties and exercising a discretionary power, courts are not warranted in interfering unless fraud or corruption is shown, or the power or discretion is being manifestly abused to the oppression of a citizen. When acting in relation to matters committed to their control or supervision, administrative agencies and their officers are immune from civil liability for the consequences of their acts. The rule of immunity applies despite the fact that the officer may have acted maliciously or corruptly. [i] [I]Industrial Commission v. Superior Court In and For Pima County, 5 Ariz. App. 100, 423 P.2d 375 (1967).

[SassyLady]

Because cops arent soldiers and it isn't illegal for a cop to not make an arrest. They use discretion all the time.

So, are you saying that the cops can use their discretion to go against what Obama is putting in place?

[logroller]

So, are you saying that the cops can use their discretion to go against what Obama is putting in place?

Even if they did make an arrest, the administrative law judges have the discretionary authority to enforce the law, or not. Obama has, all along, focused on criminal and not civil violations regarding illegal residents. If that's an issue, well then its squarely on his shoulders. But if the issue is "he's soft on illegals", that's false, he's deported a lot. Obama's on pace to deport as many illegals in four years as Bush did in eight.

Immigration is a big issue, but not for the President. Congress needs to enact reforms--we need them, have for a while now--but that's not Obama's fault.

[SassyLady]

Even if they did make an arrest, the administrative law judges have the discretionary authority to enforce the law, or not. Obama has, all along, focused on criminal and not civil violations regarding illegal residents. If that's an issue, well then its squarely on his shoulders. But if the issue is "he's soft on illegals", that's false, he's deported a lot. Obama's on pace to deport as many illegals in four years as Bush did in eight.

Immigration is a big issue, but not for the President. Congress needs to enact reforms--we need them, have for a while now--but that's not Obama's fault.

So, you are saying that he only wants to deport people who break criminal laws and not civil laws? Why?

If we put our own citizens in jail for tax fraud, then why shouldn't the illegals be deported for not paying taxes? A real quick check by ICE should verify if they've paid their taxes ..... or, if they are illegal, they probably haven't paid taxes, therefore, they are breaking more than just the law of entering the country illegally.

[fj1200]

... if Arizona police found a person who was an illegal alien and called Federal authorities as they now must, the Federal authorities would not respond to the call.

Does this now mean that if the Feds are NOT going to fulfill their constitutional, and lawful, duties that AZ can now do that? It seems to me that they should be able to flout the SCOTUS ruling.

[jimnyc]

Does this now mean that if the Feds are NOT going to fulfill their constitutional, and lawful, duties that AZ can now do that? It seems to me that they should be able to flout the SCOTUS ruling.

Problem is it's a power struggle. Arizona now has the power to check immigration status on stops. They can of course detain illegals and report them. Ice will supposedly, and only, check their status. If illegal and it's a felony, they will act. Anything short of that and they will be directed to let the person go. This is per the direction of the Obama administration.

The overwhelming majority of illegals are NOT committing felonies out there, simply sitting back and slowly bleeding our economy. They might as well just toss most immigration laws to the side at this point if they won't enforce.

That's like pulling someone over for speeding and refusing to enforce the speeding laws unless the person is already convicted of or wanted for a worse crime.

[fj1200]

Problem is it's a power struggle. Arizona now has the power to check immigration status on stops. They can of course detain illegals and report them. Ice will supposedly, and only, check their status. If illegal and it's a felony, they will act. Anything short of that and they will be directed to let the person go. This is per the direction of the Obama administration.

The overwhelming majority of illegals are NOT committing felonies out there, simply sitting back and slowly bleeding our economy. They might as well just toss most immigration laws to the side at this point if they won't enforce.

That's like pulling someone over for speeding and refusing to enforce the speeding laws unless the person is already convicted of or wanted for a worse crime.

Of course, the problem is that states have no recourse against a Federal government that won't act especially when required. It seems to destroy the Fed's whole case because it is their purview but they refuse to act on it.

[jimnyc]

Of course, the problem is that states have no recourse against a Federal government that won't act especially when required. It seems to destroy the Fed's whole case because it is their purview but they refuse to act on it.

Could they not sue them to enforce the laws on the books? Maybe have the SC chime in on whether or not the Feds must uphold certain laws?

[fj1200]

Could they not sue them to enforce the laws on the books? Maybe have the SC chime in on whether or not the Feds must uphold certain laws?

I was thinking the same thing.

[ConHog]

Could they not sue them to enforce the laws on the books? Maybe have the SC chime in on whether or not the Feds must uphold certain laws?

That's exactly what should and no doubt will happen.

I'd like to remention what someone else brought up to, why aren't these so called sanctuary cities being sued for violating the COTUS?

[ConHog]

So, you are saying that he only wants to deport people who break criminal laws and not civil laws? Why?

If we put our own citizens in jail for tax fraud, then why shouldn't the illegals be deported for not paying taxes? A real quick check by ICE should verify if they've paid their taxes ..... or, if they are illegal, they probably haven't paid taxes, therefore, they are breaking more than just the law of entering the country illegally.

The ones who are committing tax fraud, when caught anyway, are being charged with a criminal offense. Oh, and in fact probably 90% of illegals pay taxes of some sort or another so to say most illegals aren't paying taxes is quite untrue.

I'm not for open borders or anything like that, but let's keep the facts straight.

[DragonStryk72]

Problem is it's a power struggle. Arizona now has the power to check immigration status on stops. They can of course detain illegals and report them. Ice will supposedly, and only, check their status. If illegal and it's a felony, they will act. Anything short of that and they will be directed to let the person go. This is per the direction of the Obama administration.

The overwhelming majority of illegals are NOT committing felonies out there, simply sitting back and slowly bleeding our economy. They might as well just toss most immigration laws to the side at this point if they won't enforce.

That's like pulling someone over for speeding and refusing to enforce the speeding laws unless the person is already convicted of or wanted for a worse crime.

You know, though, this just occurred to me: Couldn't the cops, or a state trooper just give them a ride "home" after letting them go? Think about it, there's nothing to really stop them from doing that. You just go, "Alright, well we gotta cutcha loose, so we'll just give ye a ride home", put the illegal into the back of a squad car, drive on down, just to the other side of the border, let them out and drive back.

Actually, think on it a little, dropping the immigration laws might not be such a horribly bad idea. Think about it for a second: We of course still check IDs and such at the borders-let's not throw the baby out with the bath water-, so that we're giving it due diligence and not letting terrorists and such in, but drop the $9000 filing fees, and let people in. Not like we don't have the room or anything, and seriously, right now, couldn't we use the tax money? Most of the people who are currently trying to move to the US (~1,000,000/year last I heard) are going to have money saved up for the move, and will immediately turn around and hit local stores to wherever they move in order to get new furniture and such for their house. As well, they would be buying new homes, renting new apartments, and getting new cars. Strictly speaking, that idea could be very lucrative for us, and help boost the economy.

[ConHog]

You know, though, this just occurred to me: Couldn't the cops, or a state trooper just give them a ride "home" after letting them go? Think about it, there's nothing to really stop them from doing that. You just go, "Alright, well we gotta cutcha loose, so we'll just give ye a ride home", put the illegal into the back of a squad car, drive on down, just to the other side of the border, let them out and drive back.

Actually, think on it a little, dropping the immigration laws might not be such a horribly bad idea. Think about it for a second: We of course still check IDs and such at the borders-let's not throw the baby out with the bath water-, so that we're giving it due diligence and not letting terrorists and such in, but drop the $9000 filing fees, and let people in. Not like we don't have the room or anything, and seriously, right now, couldn't we use the tax money? Most of the people who are currently trying to move to the US (~1,000,000/year last I heard) are going to have money saved up for the move, and will immediately turn around and hit local stores to wherever they move in order to get new furniture and such for their house. As well, they would be buying new homes, renting new apartments, and getting new cars. Strictly speaking, that idea could be very lucrative for us, and help boost the economy.

I think they SHOULD have register, and they should have some form of national ID where they can pay income tax under their own names and such, but essentially you're right, they are good for many local economies.

[logroller]

So, you are saying that he only wants to deport people who break criminal laws and not civil laws? Why?

If we put our own citizens in jail for tax fraud, then why shouldn't the illegals be deported for not paying taxes? A real quick check by ICE should verify if they've paid their taxes ..... or, if they are illegal, they probably haven't paid taxes, therefore, they are breaking more than just the law of entering the country illegally.

Its a question of where to commit resources. If you cheat on your taxes, getting away with $250, they probably won't bother.
Regardless, it's not as though they aren't deporting for civil reasons, just not focusing upon it. I feel like I saw the percentage was 54/46% noncriminal/criminal now, compared with 59/41% in 2008. My point is that Obama isn't to blame over immigration, Congress is. We need reforms.

Edit: Those percentages link here (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/20/us-obama-immigration-idUSTRE78J05720110920)

[DragonStryk72]

I think they SHOULD have register, and they should have some form of national ID where they can pay income tax under their own names and such, but essentially you're right, they are good for many local economies.

Well, yeah, they'd be IDed, and that's sort of the point. As you pointed out, most illegals pay taxes anyway, so why not be able to do so under your real name? I also forgot how many would be opening businesses of their own when they get here, increasing the local job markets.

[ConHog]

Its a question of where to commit resources. If you cheat on your taxes, getting away with $250, they probably won't bother.
Regardless, it's not as though they aren't deporting for civil reasons, just not focusing upon it. I feel like I saw the percentage was 54/46% noncriminal/criminal now, compared with 59/41% in 2008. My point is that Obama isn't to blame over immigration, Congress is. We need reforms.

Exactly. Congress could clear this up in an hour. Pass a law making it a FELONY to be in the US illegally. But then of course you aren't going to just deport felons are you? No , you're going to put them in jail. Then who supports them? Definately we the tax payer then. So illogical anger aside, it probably makes better sense to just admit that they are here and lets stop wasting resources on those who are trying to be good , productive members of their society so that we can focus on putting trash in jail.

[ConHog]

Well, yeah, they'd be IDed, and that's sort of the point. As you pointed out, most illegals pay taxes anyway, so why not be able to do so under your real name? I also forgot how many would be opening businesses of their own when they get here, increasing the local job markets.

As per usual on topics such as this, some people just aren't rational. I know some good old boys who not only believe that illegal Mexicans are exempt from income tax, ,they also believe that property tax is not figured into rent for those who are renting, AND they even believe that illegals don't pay sales tax at Wal Mart or whatever. I told them if that was the case, I was going to go to Mexico become a Mexican and then sneak back to Arkansas so I could avoid all taxes. LOL

[DragonStryk72]

As per usual on topics such as this, some people just aren't rational. I know some good old boys who not only believe that illegal Mexicans are exempt from income tax, ,they also believe that property tax is not figured into rent for those who are renting, AND they even believe that illegals don't pay sales tax at Wal Mart or whatever. I told them if that was the case, I was going to go to Mexico become a Mexican and then sneak back to Arkansas so I could avoid all taxes. LOL

Well, strictly speaking, they don't have to pay income taxes, but it's very difficult to get around them without drawing suspicion. Same with property taxes and such. This is why so many illegals set up false IDs here, so that they can cover their tracks, and have better access to jobs, apartments, and homes.

[logroller]

Well, strictly speaking, they don't have to pay income taxes, but it's very difficult to get around them without drawing suspicion. Same with property taxes and such. This is why so many illegals set up false IDs here, so that they can cover their tracks, and have better access to jobs, apartments, and homes.
That's a good point; probably why going after criminals (who've therefor been fingerprinted) is more effective from an admin perspective.

[jimnyc]

The ones who are committing tax fraud, when caught anyway, are being charged with a criminal offense. Oh, and in fact probably 90% of illegals pay taxes of some sort or another so to say most illegals aren't paying taxes is quite untrue.

I'm not for open borders or anything like that, but let's keep the facts straight.

Paying a tiny amount in sales tax, and NOTHING in payroll, doesn't make them legit taxpayers. Yes, if someone paid $250 yearly on sales tax, they HAVE paid some sort of sales tax like you said. But how much are they avoiding paying into the system with no federal taxes? So yes, the overwhelming majority, if not more, of illegals pay a pittance in taxes compared to the rest of taxpayers. And then you add in the welfare monies that they receive, while ripping off the government...

[jimnyc]

As per usual on topics such as this, some people just aren't rational. I know some good old boys who not only believe that illegal Mexicans are exempt from income tax, ,they also believe that property tax is not figured into rent for those who are renting, AND they even believe that illegals don't pay sales tax at Wal Mart or whatever. I told them if that was the case, I was going to go to Mexico become a Mexican and then sneak back to Arkansas so I could avoid all taxes. LOL

What agency do they submit their income taxes to, and under what SS# or Taxpayer ID#?

[ConHog]

Paying a tiny amount in sales tax, and NOTHING in payroll, doesn't make them legit taxpayers. Yes, if someone paid $250 yearly on sales tax, they HAVE paid some sort of sales tax like you said. But how much are they avoiding paying into the system with no federal taxes? So yes, the overwhelming majority, if not more, of illegals pay a pittance in taxes compared to the rest of taxpayers. And then you add in the welfare monies that they receive, while ripping off the government...


What agency do they submit their income taxes to, and under what SS# or Taxpayer ID#?

Jim, I've already shown in this thread where the GAO states that the number of illegals who are fraudulently collecting any welfare is relatively small. So unless you have facts that suggest otherwise we should trust the book keepers shouldn't we?

As for income tax, sure there are some who are paid cash and never pay income tax, just like their are some Americans who are paid cash and never pay any income tax. The VAST majority though are paying in using social security numbers that they will NEVER be able to file under. Thus they pay in and don't get any refunds or suh. Now true, if they underpay they don't file anyway so they don't have to pay anything over, BUT how many of them are so stupid that they are going to do anything likely to draw IRS attention? Answer : None, so they file under fake numbers and pay the minimum amount they have to .

Now of course it is illegal to use a social security number that doesn't belong to you, but that is why they should be given some sort of number that they can file as themselves. It makes the ones who just want better for their families MORE honest.

Have you ever been to Mexico? Honest question? Who the hell can blame them for wanting a better life, and guess what, that is what this country was founded on, a better life for anyone willing to work their asses off and grab it.

I'd rather have one thousand illegal immigrants who want to work their ass off to be everything this country gives them the possibility of being than have a single low life "natural born" American who thinks the world's owed to him simply b/c he was born here.

[jimnyc]

Jim, I've already shown in this thread where the GAO states that the number of illegals who are fraudulently collecting any welfare is relatively small. So unless you have facts that suggest otherwise we should trust the book keepers shouldn't we?

As for income tax, sure there are some who are paid cash and never pay income tax, just like their are some Americans who are paid cash and never pay any income tax. The VAST majority though are paying in using social security numbers that they will NEVER be able to file under. Thus they pay in and don't get any refunds or suh. Now true, if they underpay they don't file anyway so they don't have to pay anything over, BUT how many of them are so stupid that they are going to do anything likely to draw IRS attention? Answer : None, so they file under fake numbers and pay the minimum amount they have to .

Now of course it is illegal to use a social security number that doesn't belong to you, but that is why they should be given some sort of number that they can file as themselves. It makes the ones who just want better for their families MORE honest.

Have you ever been to Mexico? Honest question? Who the hell can blame them for wanting a better life, and guess what, that is what this country was founded on, a better life for anyone willing to work their asses off and grab it.

I'd rather have one thousand illegal immigrants who want to work their ass off to be everything this country gives them the possibility of being than have a single low life "natural born" American who thinks the world's owed to him simply b/c he was born here.

Illegals shouldn't be getting any welfare. But here are stats from 2011 alone - http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

It's a disgrace. They pay shit for taxes and then we load them with freebies in return. And no offense, pointing out that some of them commit further crimes, to take away American's jobs, and accidentally pay into a system with fraudulent info, doesn't do much for me. The majority of these people are seeking out cash paying jobs, and then receiving welfare assistance on the other end. I say it's the majority of them paying jack shit, or in cases like you point out, a fraudulent minimum.

But do you have something to backup these millions and millions of reports that the IRS is reporting to have received from bogus taxpayers with fraudulent #'s?

[ConHog]

Illegals shouldn't be getting any welfare. But here are stats from 2011 alone - http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

It's a disgrace. They pay shit for taxes and then we load them with freebies in return. And no offense, pointing out that some of them commit further crimes, to take away American's jobs, and accidentally pay into a system with fraudulent info, doesn't do much for me. The majority of these people are seeking out cash paying jobs, and then receiving welfare assistance on the other end. I say it's the majority of them paying jack shit, or in cases like you point out, a fraudulent minimum.

But do you have something to backup these millions and millions of reports that the IRS is reporting to have received from bogus taxpayers with fraudulent #'s?

Unfortunately for you your link is talking about welfare that Americans receive. That is a shame, but unrelated to illegal aliens receiving welfare.

[jimnyc]

Unfortunately for you your link is talking about welfare that Americans receive. That is a shame, but unrelated to illegal aliens receiving welfare.

Fortunately for me, that link is ALL about illegal and legal immigration. I suggest rather than dismiss it without reading, you read it. Here, very first sentence - "Thirteen years after welfare reform, the share of immigrant-headed households (legal and illegal) with a child (under age 18) using at least one welfare program continues to be very high."

Here's a blurb fro JUST ONE COUNTY that spent nearly $600 million on illegal kids...


Welfare benefits for the children of illegal immigrants cost America's largest county more than $600 million last year, according to a local official keeping tabs on the cost.


Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael Antonovich released new statistics this week showing social spending for those families in his county rose to $53 million in November, putting the county government on track to spend more than $600 million on related costs for the year -- up from $570 million in 2009.


Antonovich arrived at the estimate by factoring in the cost of food stamps and welfare-style benefits through a state program known as CalWORKS. Combined with public safety costs and health care costs, the official claimed the "total cost for illegal immigrants to county taxpayers" was more than $1.6 billion in 2010.


"Not including the hundreds of millions of dollars for education," he said in a statement.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/19/welfare-tab-children-illegal-immigrants-estimated-m-la-county/

[jimnyc]

70% of all illegal immigrants in Texas are on welfare. I wonder what that cost is to the state yearly?

http://blog.chron.com/txpotomac/2011/04/study-70-of-texas-illegal-immigrant-families-receive-welfare/

[jimnyc]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/H8lLU7XjcWc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jimnyc]

And why does Arizona want to curb this problem?


A new report from the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that wants to restrict immigration, says that immigrant households with children in Arizona use welfare programs at a higher rate than in any other state.

Sixty-two percent of immigrant households with children in Arizona use at least one welfare program, edging out Texas, California and New York, all with about 61 percent, said the report, based on census data (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/04/06/20110406arizona-illegal-immigrants-welfare.html#) for 2009.


Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/04/06/20110406arizona-illegal-immigrants-welfare.html#ixzz1z1ozTZ5V

[red states rule]

I noticed not once in the coverage of the USSC ruling, did the liberal media ever call these people "illegals" or "illegal immigrants"

Of course the folks in AZ and those who support the law were tagged racists

and now Rev Al at DNCTV now want to extend all the goodies to the illegals


http://www.mrctv.org/videos/sharpton-angered-republicans-oppose-entitlement-funding-illegals

[red states rule]

So, you are saying that he only wants to deport people who break criminal laws and not civil laws? Why?

If we put our own citizens in jail for tax fraud, then why shouldn't the illegals be deported for not paying taxes? A real quick check by ICE should verify if they've paid their taxes ..... or, if they are illegal, they probably haven't paid taxes, therefore, they are breaking more than just the law of entering the country illegally.


What did I miss here? I thought they had already broke the law by being here ILLEGALLY,

[Drummond]

As I'm not American, I'm on unsure ground when it comes to considering who has what duty to act or cooperate with other authorities in cases like this ... though it seems obvious that Obama is using some form of devious methodology to further pro-immigrant biases.

I've one observation, and maybe a theory to advance. Being unjustly favourable to as much of an open-door to immigration as it's possible to arrange is precisely what our Socialists got up to, until they were booted out of power in 2010. This looks like Obama copying what our lot were doing, albeit in a particular way that meets your own social circumstances.

Here's the thought I want to suggest. Here in the UK, Labour could implement propagandist pressures to suggest that people could be tarred with the 'racist' label if they spoke out on immigration issues AT ALL. But judging from what I'm seeing here, Obama doesn't have the luxury of that ability to influence public opinion. So, it seems to me, he's taking more of an authoritarian route so as to straitjacket his opposition into the path he wants.

I think that Obama is enacting the same imperative as our lot did, and will seek to force opinion to his side, not through propaganda, but through force of authority. And I think the goal is to force the majority into acquiescence.

Different method, exactly the same goal .. and bog-standard Socialist disempowerment of the ordinary citizen is the sought-after effect.

[gabosaurus]

Can I be removed from this stupid thread?
Thanks in advance... :lame2:

[red states rule]

Can I be removed from this stupid thread?
Thanks in advance... :lame2:

So now you support illegals Gabby? Do you want them to vote, get Social Security and welfare benefits as well?

Are you willing to take several into your home to show how much you "care"?

[jimnyc]

Can I be removed from this stupid thread?
Thanks in advance... :lame2:

If you insist on being a troll, sure.

[red states rule]

If you insist on being a troll, sure.


Ah, the power of the ban button :salute:

[Drummond]

Can I be removed from this stupid thread?
Thanks in advance... :lame2:

??????????????????????????????????????????

Hello, Gabby.

Care to say why it's 'stupid', by your reckoning ?

Could it just be - I suggest - that you have great difficulty in making an objective case which serves you, so instead, you try for an emotive approach which lacks all substance ?

By all means, Gabby, prove me wrong if you can ...

[red states rule]

??????????????????????????????????????????

Hello, Gabby.

Care to say why it's 'stupid', by your reckoning ?

Could it just be - I suggest - that you have great difficulty in making an objective case which serves you, so instead, you try for an emotive approach which lacks all substance ?

By all means, Gabby, prove me wrong if you can ...

If you think Gabby will answer a direct and specific question, you must also send your wish list to Santa every December

[Drummond]

If yout think Gabby will answer a direct and specific question, you must also send your wish list to Santa every December

Curses .. I thought my secret was safe ... :laugh:

[red states rule]

[/B]

Curses .. I thought my secret was safe ... :laugh:


and if you expect the same from Con Man Hog, you also think the Easter Bunny will bring you lost of chocolate treats

[ConHog]

and if you expect the same from Con Man Hog, you also think the Easter Bunny will bring you lost of chocolate treats

WTF? How many threads you going to troll me in?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

and if you expect the same from Con Man Hog, you also think the Easter Bunny will bring you lost of chocolate treats

Very keen observation on your part amigo.
How much wailing and gnashing of teeth will that remark get ya from the victim??:laugh2:

[ConHog]

Very keen observation on your part amigo.
How much wailing and gnashing of teeth will that remark get ya from the victim??:laugh2:

LOL @ still "having me on ignore" but flaming me at every chance, what a pussy.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Illegals shouldn't be getting any welfare. But here are stats from 2011 alone - http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

It's a disgrace. They pay shit for taxes and then we load them with freebies in return. And no offense, pointing out that some of them commit further crimes, to take away American's jobs, and accidentally pay into a system with fraudulent info, doesn't do much for me. The majority of these people are seeking out cash paying jobs, and then receiving welfare assistance on the other end. I say it's the majority of them paying jack shit, or in cases like you point out, a fraudulent minimum.

But do you have something to backup these millions and millions of reports that the IRS is reporting to have received from bogus taxpayers with fraudulent #'s?

Your facts will not make a dent my friend.. A bigger liberal apologist we never had even at our old forum! Never bothers to factor in the hundreds of billions they cost us yearly ! -Tyr

[logroller]

Just curious what percentage of illegals make more than the almost 50% of citizens that pay no taxes. I see a lot of blaming illegal aliens for taking advantage of systema which a fundamentally flawed. This maybe a crazy idea, but what about using this undocumented worker/dream act stuff as a political trade for incometax or welfare reform? Seems that would be more beneficial than incessantly arguing.

[ConHog]

Just curious what percentage of illegals make more than the almost 50% of citizens that pay no taxes. I see a lot of blaming illegal aliens for taking advantage of systema which a fundamentally flawed. This maybe a crazy idea, but what about using this undocumented worker/dream act stuff as a political trade for incometax or welfare reform? Seems that would be more beneficial than incessantly arguing.



but but but SMELLY BROWN PEOPLE

[SassyLady]

The ones who are committing tax fraud, when caught anyway, are being charged with a criminal offense. Oh, and in fact probably 90% of illegals pay taxes of some sort or another so to say most illegals aren't paying taxes is quite untrue.

I'm not for open borders or anything like that, but let's keep the facts straight.

I'm talking about paying income taxes ... filing a tax return. Most of them claim enough dependents that no FIT or SIT is taken out. Then, when it's time to file their year end tax returns they are no where to be found. I think everyone who is picked up should have their social security number (where real or fake) run through a database ..... if they haven't filed returns, charge them with crime. The other side of this is discovering if SS# being used is stolen and if so, then charge them with stolen identity.

[ConHog]

I'm talking about paying income taxes ... filing a tax return. Most of them claim enough dependents that no FIT or SIT is taken out. Then, when it's time to file their year end tax returns they are no where to be found. I think everyone who is picked up should have their social security number (where real or fake) run through a database ..... if they haven't filed returns, charge them with crime. The other side of this is discovering if SS# being used is stolen and if so, then charge them with stolen identity.

The only problem with that is, not paying income tax is not a crime. Some people just don't work, and that's just not illegal.

[SassyLady]

The only problem with that is, not paying income tax is not a crime. Some people just don't work, and that's just not illegal.

Really? Then why do we have people going to jail for income tax evasion?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm talking about paying income taxes ... filing a tax return. Most of them claim enough dependents that no FIT or SIT is taken out. Then, when it's time to file their year end tax returns they are no where to be found. I think everyone who is picked up should have their social security number (where real or fake) run through a database ..... if they haven't filed returns, charge them with crime. The other side of this is discovering if SS# being used is stolen and if so, then charge them with stolen identity.

Arguing with a liberal apologist is like riding a merry-go-round. One often gets off dizzy with nothing accomplished except a wasting of time. Just sayin.' -Tyr

[ConHog]

Really? Then why do we have people going to jail for income tax evasion?

You obviously misread SL. I didn't say that not paying income tax owed wasn't illegal. I said not paying anything in income tax is not illegal. For instance, if you make below a certain threshold , it is not illegal to not pay anything.

[SassyLady]

You obviously misread SL. I didn't say that not paying income tax owed wasn't illegal. I said not paying anything in income tax is not illegal. For instance, if you make below a certain threshold , it is not illegal to not pay anything.

I thought one had to file a return, even if they owed nothing? If they are not filing a return, and have received some type of wages, then aren't they guilty of income tax evasion?

[ConHog]

I thought one had to file a return, even if they owed nothing? If they are not filing a return, and have received some type of wages, then aren't they guilty of income tax evasion?

Nope, If you earned less than $9500 you are not required to file. That's if you're single.

http://www.priortax.com/filing-late-taxes/who-has-to-file-irs-form-1040/

[SassyLady]

Nope, If you earned less than $9500 you are not required to file. That's if you're single.

http://www.priortax.com/filing-late-taxes/who-has-to-file-irs-form-1040/

I did not know this. I've filed a tax return for the last 43 years so just thought everyone had to.

[ConHog]

I did not know this. I've filed a tax return for the last 43 years so just thought everyone had to.

Well, one would hope and wish that most people earned above those thresholds, but that just isn't the case. So there are cases where people can not file and not be breaking any law in doing so.

Now obviously that doesn't cover all situations and no doubt there are illegal aliens who are also tax cheats. Just as there are American citizens who are tax cheats.

National sales tax solves all that.

[Kathianne]

Well, one would hope and wish that most people earned above those thresholds, but that just isn't the case. So there are cases where people can not file and not be breaking any law in doing so.

Now obviously that doesn't cover all situations and no doubt there are illegal aliens who are also tax cheats. Just as there are American citizens who are tax cheats.

National sales tax solves all that.

Sales tax is the most regressive of all taxes. In IL alone, Cook and the 5 collar counties have at minimum 6.75 sales tax on most items. Higher on alcohol and tobacco. So a person making $10k per year, is likely to be paying at least $675, since literally all of their money is spent, there's no room for saving. Oh, if they own a car, the gasoline taxes, (which the fed is already involved with), IL throws up .19 per gal., counties, cities, and fed add more. In my city it's over .70 per gallon, and the city only adds .02.

On the other hand, someone making even as little as $30k per year, has enough to shelter some income that isn't spent; thus being freed for the time being from a sales tax.

That's why a mix of a flat or fair tax makes more sense. Everyone has to pay something, but there are thresholds for where it begins. It seems to me that the best system of all is no 'added' taxes; whomever you need to pay: fed, state, city, county, township; there should be a form filled out 1, 2, or 4 times a year: mail the check. That way everyone KNOWS how much they are paying and are more likely to react correctly to suggested tax increases.

The reason people pay so much attention to the income tax and property tax is because they do send in a check or see the deduction in their paycheck, even if they get a refund. They KNOW the cost of SSI. FICA, etc.

[Drummond]

Nope, If you earned less than $9500 you are not required to file. That's if you're single.

http://www.priortax.com/filing-late-taxes/who-has-to-file-irs-form-1040/

... hang on a minute ! Given that your statement is accurate, what is it that DETERMINES that it is ?

Surely, there has to be wording in some law that defines what that limit is, so that the law is followed to allow for that exemption ?

Which means that, unless your not paying tax is covered by that exemption stipulated in a specific law, the act of not paying tax must therefore be illegal ?

... yes ?

[jimnyc]

The only problem with that is, not paying income tax is not a crime. Some people just don't work, and that's just not illegal.


You obviously misread SL. I didn't say that not paying income tax owed wasn't illegal. I said not paying anything in income tax is not illegal. For instance, if you make below a certain threshold , it is not illegal to not pay anything.

The thing is, the majority come here for work, and the majority make above that threshold, and the majority don't pay taxes on it.

First off, they should be having taxes taken out from day one, not depending on what they make at the end of the year. If under the threshold, they get what they paid back to them in full. Obviously that won't be happening with illegals. But even at minimum wage they'll go over the threshold quite easily. Only a PT worker with shit hours won't meet the threshold. And even then, how do they get the money back without filing? That's why they don't file, because they don't have SS#'s. So even a PT worker making $4 grand a year is working illegally if not submitting taxes as they work, at least via employer, or quarterly as a contractor and a submitted SS# or Taxpayer ID#.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

... hang on a minute ! Given that your statement is accurate, what is it that DETERMINES that it is ?

Surely, there has to be wording in some law that defines what that limit is, so that the law is followed to allow for that exemption ?

Which means that, unless your not paying tax is covered by that exemption stipulated in a specific law, the act of not paying tax must therefore be illegal ?

... yes ?

We have income tax laws on the books. Employers are forced by law to withhold income tax. If one makes under a certain amount and qualifies to not pay they are not held liable. However since our lowest wage allowed here puts a 40 hour a week worker well above the non-paying group status they must pay. To get any overpayment back they must file an income tax return. Failure to file becomes a big deal when one owes the government (didnt pay enough in), not so big when the government owes the person.
Yes, not paying the tax owed is illegal. We have tax evasion laws and the IRS is feared greatly by most wise people here. Hated by honest and decent people here my friend. Self-employed people have to pay as well. Our tax code is about 20,000 pages and growing.
Ch's comment was misleading but what's new about that? -Tyr

[jimnyc]

We have income tax laws on the books. Employers are forced by law to withhold income tax. If one makes under a certain amount and qualifies to not pay they are not held liable. However since our lowest wage allowed here puts a 40 hour a week worker well above the non-paying group status they must pay. To get any overpayment back they must file an income tax return. Failure to file becomes a big deal when one owes the government (didnt pay enough in), not so big when the government owes the person.
Yes, not paying the tax owed is illegal. We have tax evasion laws and the IRS is feared greatly by most wise people here. Hated by honest and decent people here my friend. Self-employed people have to pay as well. Our tax code is about 20,000 pages and growing.
Ch's comment was misleading but what's new about that? -Tyr

Keep in mind though, that even if an employee is making minimum wage, and even it's just a summer job, taxes must be withheld. Then at the end of the year, when filing a return, if the employee makes less than the threshold, they get it all back. That's why I'm saying all along that the overwhelming majority of illegals are avoiding payroll taxes, as they would need a SS# or similar from the get go, unless of course getting paid cash. This benefits both the employee and employer, both of which are screwing the honest taxpayers and workers.

[ConHog]

The thing is, the majority come here for work, and the majority make above that threshold, and the majority don't pay taxes on it.

First off, they should be having taxes taken out from day one, not depending on what they make at the end of the year. If under the threshold, they get what they paid back to them in full. Obviously that won't be happening with illegals. But even at minimum wage they'll go over the threshold quite easily. Only a PT worker with shit hours won't meet the threshold. And even then, how do they get the money back without filing? That's why they don't file, because they don't have SS#'s. So even a PT worker making $4 grand a year is working illegally if not submitting taxes as they work, at least via employer, or quarterly as a contractor and a submitted SS# or Taxpayer ID#.



Jim, that wasn't what I was saying. The question was simply asked "thought everyone had to file?" answer is no.

Now, MOST illegals are in fact filing and paying taxes. It may be a piddly amount. They may use every deduction they can think of, they may be using a stolen SS number, but they ARE paying in. Of course there are those who are paid cash who aren't , but as I said there are also Americans doing the same, should we deport them to?

The thing is at the end of the year, they don't file because then they might get caught, and they don't want that. So any monies collected stays with the US treasury (for better or worse)

Read this Jim, it estimates that illegal aliens pay in $9 BILLION in Social Security alone in one year.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

Where the hell are we gonna make up that shortfall if we kick these folks out or just arrest them?

[jimnyc]

Jim, that wasn't what I was saying. The question was simply asked "thought everyone had to file?" answer is no.

Now, MOST illegals are in fact filing and paying taxes. It may be a piddly amount. They may use every deduction they can think of, they may be using a stolen SS number, but they ARE paying in. Of course there are those who are paid cash who aren't , but as I said there are also Americans doing the same, should we deport them to?

The thing is at the end of the year, they don't file because then they might get caught, and they don't want that. So any monies collected stays with the US treasury (for better or worse)

Read this Jim, it estimates that illegal aliens pay in $9 BILLION in Social Security alone in one year.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

Where the hell are we gonna make up that shortfall if we kick these folks out or just arrest them?

So your argument FOR illegal immigrants is that it would create a shortfall in SS taxes? LOL You do realize the cost to keep illegals, probably jail alone, exceeds that amount. Each individual welfare system probably exceeds that. Free healthcare easily exceeds that.

Yes, illegals pay 'some' taxes, but all in all they cost America much more than they put in. And it shouldn't really even be a question. They are illegal, and until such time that they become legal, they shouldn't be entitled to any freebies at all. That's one way of reducing their cost, simply don't give them welfare. But far too many people think somehow that we owe it to them, for, for I guess illegally being in our country?

[jimnyc]

Jim, that wasn't what I was saying. The question was simply asked "thought everyone had to file?" answer is no.

And to this, more accurately the answer is that yes, they are supposed to file, and those that don't are breaking the law again. Even if you work PT for 100hrs over the course of a year, you were still supposed to pay taxes, and therefore a return is needed at the end of the year. Or it's simply a continuation of a crime when they supplied a false SS# when they started working.

[ConHog]

So your argument FOR illegal immigrants is that it would create a shortfall in SS taxes? LOL You do realize the cost to keep illegals, probably jail alone, exceeds that amount. Each individual welfare system probably exceeds that. Free healthcare easily exceeds that.

Yes, illegals pay 'some' taxes, but all in all they cost America much more than they put in. And it shouldn't really even be a question. They are illegal, and until such time that they become legal, they shouldn't be entitled to any freebies at all. That's one way of reducing their cost, simply don't give them welfare. But far too many people think somehow that we owe it to them, for, for I guess illegally being in our country?


well, my argument is actually that we make them legal. Not that we turn a blind eye to them being here illegally. And are you now arguing that the link I provided is not accurate? OR are you simply suggesting that illegals cost far more than $8B a year? If so, link , and how?



And to this, more accurately the answer is that yes, they are supposed to file, and those that don't are breaking the law again. Even if you work PT for 100hrs over the course of a year, you were still supposed to pay taxes, and therefore a return is needed at the end of the year. Or it's simply a continuation of a crime when they supplied a false SS# when they started working.


again, already proven that if you earn below a certain amount you are not breaking the law if you don't file. The question of whether some are lying about how much they make is another matter entirely.

[jimnyc]

well, my argument is actually that we make them legal. Not that we turn a blind eye to them being here illegally. And are you now arguing that the link I provided is not accurate? OR are you simply suggesting that illegals cost far more than $8B a year? If so, link , and how?

Where did I say your link wasn't accurate? I'm simply stating that they may pay that much in SS tax, but the other costs to our nation much exceed that number. Hell, here's an article from Cali, in 2004, that it cost one state alone over 10 billion per year! http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Simply do searches on 'what do illegal aliens cost american taxpayers per year' and have fun reading. But if you think the costs to the taxpayers is LESS than the 8 billion they pay, you're delusional.


again, already proven that if you earn below a certain amount you are not breaking the law if you don't file. The question of whether some are lying about how much they make is another matter entirely.

And if under a certain amount, they would STILL have had to have been paying taxes from payroll. So they're already breaking the law again by using fraudulent info, or by avoiding taxes.

[ConHog]

Where did I say your link wasn't accurate? I'm simply stating that they may pay that much in SS tax, but the other costs to our nation much exceed that number. Hell, here's an article from Cali, in 2004, that it cost one state alone over 10 billion per year! http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

Simply do searches on 'what do illegal aliens cost american taxpayers per year' and have fun reading. But if you think the costs to the taxpayers is LESS than the 8 billion they pay, you're delusional.



Reread what I wrote and realize that I was in fact asking if you were disputing my link, I didn't flat say you were.


as for your link. That's nice, now I would like to see a link on revenue generated for CA by illegals.

And if the info could come from a source that doesn't have an agenda , that would be great.


And if under a certain amount, they would STILL have had to have been paying taxes from payroll. So they're already breaking the law again by using fraudulent info, or by avoiding taxes.

Correct, and if caught they are prosecuted. Not all illegal aliens are tax evaders though. That's the point.