Stolen Valor! Dastardly Lies from despicable people..

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Home/News/Veterans/Stolen ValorStolen Valor

Military disputes TV contestant's claim of combat injuries
A contestant on "America's Got Talent" gained sympathy from the judges and applause from the audience when he described suffering a TBI in Afghanistan, but the military says it has no record of him being injured.

14:10 June 6, 2012

Stories
Law that makes it a crime to lie about military honors could be overturned
However personally galled and angered B.G. Burkett is by people who lie about military honors, he is equally frank about the possibility of losing the Stolen Valor Act, the law that punishes them. He puts the odds of it surviving at less than 50-50. "It's not a worthless law, but it's a weak law," Burkett said. "People expect me to be angry about the possibility that it will go down, but it doesn't bother me. The law isn't doing what it's supposed to do."

Supreme Court hears 'stolen valor' case of false military heroism
Supreme Court justices on Wednesday sounded cautiously sympathetic to a federal law that punishes fake military heroes. While not marching in lockstep, the justices seemed to agree that lying about medals does damage to the military’s honor.
Houston veterans mentor says he lied about his military record
The director of counseling at a nonprofit for veterans in Houston confessed Wednesday to lying about his military record and falsely claiming a Silver Star and other medals.
Ex-Virginia Beach man accused of posing as Navy officer
Veteran’s claims of awards, service do not withstand scrutiny
Supreme Court to decide if Constitution allows lying about military heroism
'Stolen Valor': a legal fight for the right to tell lies
Ga. man posing as soldier sentenced to prison
Feds: W.Va man posed as Army general in job hunt
Appeals court weighs military impostor law
SEAL imposter attends school's military tribute
NC academy head suspected of posing as Vietnam vet
Did a chaplain's fake Purple Heart erase good deeds?
Nevada legislators push Stolen Valor bills
A fake Medal of Honor or Purple Heart: Is it free speech?
Commentary: False claims to valor are not victimless crimes
Commentary: Judicial follies -- Spontaneous vitality of a lie
Appeals court upholds ruling that "Stolen Valor" is unconstiutional
Man who faked being a Navy SEAL: ‘I was trying to help out vets’
Twitterverse angry over Giunta ‘stolen valor’
Lying about military service could cost $10K
Appeals court rules that Stolen Valor Act is unconstitutional
Command sergeant major charged with claiming false honors
Conn. candidate not alone military service fraud
A rash of phony vets, fake medal recipients exposed
Stolen Valor
Stars and Stripes' Stolen Valor page
What is 'Stolen Valor?'
Why do they do it?
I think this guy is a phony. How do I check it out?
Does anyone keep track of this?
ABC News: Operation Stolen Valor
stol

I have often wondered just how low does a person have to go to do this? ^^^^^^
To degrade the heroism of others by falsely claiming such deeds!
Thoughts, anybody!?? -Tyr

[darin]

awhile ago I suggested the forum create 'verified military veteran' policy - for those willing to do so, we'd ask for verifiable proof of service.


To date myself and CSM have gone through the process.

The most-vocal of those who didn't like the process are those whom bring the most suspicion in my mind.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think proof of one's claims of service would go a long way to curb such sorry deeds of lying . Easy enough to do for those speaking the truth about themselves! The liars I dont give a damn about their discomfort or exsposure!
Our guys deserve to have us protect their service and their heroism and asking proof is the best way. Anybody claiming to have done an act of heroism should be ready to prove it with convincing proof here or anywhere else IMHO.
What say ye??/-Tyr

[fj1200]

Law that makes it a crime to lie about military honors could be overturned

I think we had a thread on that law.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

awhile ago I suggested the forum create 'verified military veteran' policy - for those willing to do so, we'd ask for verifiable proof of service.


To date myself and CSM have gone through the process.

The most-vocal of those who didn't like the process are those whom bring the most suspicion in my mind.

Suspicion often leads to finding the TRUTH! CERTAINLY NOBODY CAN OBJECT TO THE TRUTH BEING SOUGHT, RIGHT?
I mean it is to protect the service of our boys and girls that serve honorably and many that go beyond the call of dury!
Examples- Saving a buddy's life in combat, facing superior numbered enemy forces in a courageous and exceedingly heroic manner or even saving an innocent child's life in a deadly combat zone! Such Heroism and admiration for it is not to be so easily obtained as simply lying and then standing back getting the admiration without giving REAL proof!-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think we had a thread on that law.

Well, this thread is about more than just that law.-Tyr

[CSM]

I dunno. Some people just have to make up or exagerate thier heroic deeds I guess because they haven't the courage or honor to truly accomplish any themselves. It's not just military either, police, firemen, et al get the same kind of stuff.

[logroller]

I was awarded the world supersize hero medal for saving 100 children from certain death aboard a sinking life raft; all while riding aboard the back of trained porpoises.....true story. I can prove it too; except executive privilege prevents me from doing so.

[Abbey Marie]

Tyr, were you in the service? If so, and you'd like we can place a branch designation under your name. See CSM for an example.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr, were you in the service? If so, and you'd like we can place a branch designation under your name. See CSM for an example.

No ma'am, I was not in the service. I wish that I had been during my younger years as it would have straightened my wild young ass out sooner rather than later in my life! I am however a big supporter of our military ! I respect their service and never trash their sacrifices. -Tyr

[gabosaurus]

Wasn't there a thread about this on DP quite a while back?
Crazy Brits are always behind on the news. :rolleyes:

[fj1200]

Wasn't there a thread about this on DP quite a while back?
Crazy Brits are always behind on the news. :rolleyes:

And smug Californians.


I think we had a thread on that law.

You might also notice that residents of the Southern portions of the USA are no longer British subjects. I know it's recent news but it's true.

[logroller]

And smug Californians.



You might also notice that residents of the Southern portions of the USA are no longer British subjects. I know it's recent news but it's true.
French?

[SassyLady]

French?

Cuban?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I dunno. Some people just have to make up or exagerate thier heroic deeds I guess because they haven't the courage or honor to truly accomplish any themselves. It's not just military either, police, firemen, et al get the same kind of stuff.

Has that happened much here ?--Tyr

[SassyLady]

Has that happened much here ?--Tyr

Probably same percentage as IRL.

[aboutime]

awhile ago I suggested the forum create 'verified military veteran' policy - for those willing to do so, we'd ask for verifiable proof of service.


To date myself and CSM have gone through the process.

The most-vocal of those who didn't like the process are those whom bring the most suspicion in my mind.

It disgusts me to hear about anyone who claims to be something they are not. Especially, those who claim to have military service, and awards who turn out to be liars.
Let me know what you need.
Then let's hear from those who won't.

[Mr. P]

awhile ago I suggested the forum create 'verified military veteran' policy - for those willing to do so, we'd ask for verifiable proof of service.


To date myself and CSM have gone through the process.

The most-vocal of those who didn't like the process are those whom bring the most suspicion in my mind.

I missed that I guess, where is it?

[aboutime]

I missed that I guess, where is it?


I haven't been able to find any reference to it.
But I'm ready to help, just the same.
Nothing to hide. The Truth Always Wins.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Probably same percentage as IRL.

I believe that it would be nice to know if we have any frauds here boasting of military deeds never really done.
And I'm not talking about obvious jokes but rather serious declarations past or present .
Usually such a person as would do that is not fit company even on message board IMHO.
Myself, I still want to find out who stepped in front of a bullet to save a child's life.
If true, we have a true hero in our midst, if not well........... -Tyr

[Gaffer]

This stolen valor stuff has been going on for more than 40 years. The first time I experienced it was in Monterey Ca. in a restaurant. I was a couple of months back from Vietnam and was there with a buddy and his girlfriend and another guy who was a medic. The medic was trying to impress the girl, He had never been in Vietnam but was telling a story about a battle he was in and how they had advanced on the enemy. I let him talk for a while until he describe how the company mortars were being walked in front of them about 15 meters. That's when I called him a lair. He stood up all insulted and I stood up and glared at him. He then left the restaurant in a hurry.

Most guys tell such stories to impress or gain sympathy. The real phonies claim to be special forces and are always hero's in their stories. These phonies were a real problem following the Vietnam area and will be a problem following iraq and afghan as well. They use their lies for personal gain and glory. They need to be exposed at every opportunity.

[Abbey Marie]

No ma'am, I was not in the service. I wish that I had been during my younger years as it would have straightened my wild young ass out sooner rather than later in my life! I am however a big supporter of our military ! I respect their service and never trash their sacrifices. -Tyr

That's cool. The tank in your avi made me think it. :cool:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

This stolen valor stuff has been going on for more than 40 years. The first time I experienced it was in Monterey Ca. in a restaurant. I was a couple of months back from Vietnam and was there with a buddy and his girlfriend and another guy who was a medic. The medic was trying to impress the girl, He had never been in Vietnam but was telling a story about a battle he was in and how they had advanced on the enemy. I let him talk for a while until he describe how the company mortars were being walked in front of them about 15 meters. That's when I called him a lair. He stood up all insulted and I stood up and glared at him. He then left the restaurant in a hurry.

Most guys tell such stories to impress or gain sympathy. The real phonies claim to be special forces and are always hero's in their stories. These phonies were a real problem following the Vietnam area and will be a problem following iraq and afghan as well. They use their lies for personal gain and glory. They need to be exposed at every opportunity.

I agree, shine a light upon them at every place they attempt to hide.. Light being a wonderful disinfectant!-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

That's cool. The tank in your avi made me think it. :cool:

My son picked that out for me. Nice one, is it not my friend? -:beer:--Tyr

[Roo]

Suspicion often leads to finding the TRUTH! CERTAINLY NOBODY CAN OBJECT TO THE TRUTH BEING SOUGHT, RIGHT?
I mean it is to protect the service of our boys and girls that serve honorably and many that go beyond the call of dury!
Examples- Saving a buddy's life in combat, facing superior numbered enemy forces in a courageous and exceedingly heroic manner or even saving an innocent child's life in a deadly combat zone! Such Heroism and admiration for it is not to be so easily obtained as simply lying and then standing back getting the admiration without giving REAL proof!-Tyr

The fact is that anybody who has actually done something like wouldn't a shit what you or anyone else thought....sorry.

[Abbey Marie]

The fact is that anybody who has actually done something like wouldn't a shit what you or anyone else thought....sorry.

Really? Seems to me that someone who would bother to make up such lies about him/herself probably cares very much what people think.

[logroller]

Really? Seems to me that someone who would bother to make up such lies about him/herself probably cares very much what people think.
I think roo was talking about those who've performed valiantly; not those who pretend to have.

[Roo]

Really? Seems to me that someone who would bother to make up such lies about him/herself probably cares very much what people think.

Nobody who has actually done something heroic would feel the need tp prove anything to anybody...and more than likely they wouldn't even talk about it....it's much like sex, those that do it do it, and those that don't talk about doing it.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The fact is that anybody who has actually done something like wouldn't a shit what you or anyone else thought....sorry.

No need to feel, "sorry", as your statement merely affirms your opinion that the act of seeking the TRUTH is not to be held in high regard. One could easily understand that comment to say, "who cares about the truth"? To which I will say, decent people and that is who must defend truth no matter the costs, no matter the cause.
A valiant man that had truly performed such a deed would not be angered if a person asked for proof, for he could and most likely would be able to easily verify his declaration. Rather, it is the lesser mind that would defend the liar and make his lies easier to be believed and less likely to be questioned. Or do you contend that the mere act of questioning is a folly?
Your comment above clearly hints of personal feelings on this matter.
Care to share? -Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Nobody who has actually done something heroic would feel the need tp prove anything to anybody...and more than likely they wouldn't even talk about it....it's much like sex, those that do it do it, and those that don't talk about doing it.

Why not, if they felt the need to announce it in an open forum why would they not think it appropriate to explain about it?
Any reason why you are defending their right to announce the deed but not verify?
Why announce it then!??
Logic is hard to defeat..
I ask yet again, why openly announce the deed if they are so reluctant to tell the story or to verify it's truth?-Tyr

[Roo]

No need to feel, "sorry", as your statement merely affirms your opinion that the act of seeking the TRUTH is not to be held in high regard. One could easily understand that comment to say, "who cares about the truth"? To which I will say, decent people and that is who must defend truth no matter the costs, no matter the cause.
A valiant man that had truly performed such a deed would not be angered if a person asked for proof, for he could and most likely would be able to easily verify his declaration. Rather, it is the lesser mind that would defend the liar and make his lies easier to be believed and less likely to be questioned. Or do you contend that the mere act of questioning is a folly?
Your comment above clearly hints of personal feelings on this matter.
Care to share? -Tyr

A valiant man who had performed the deed wouldn't talk about it, I understand that you don't get that.

Do you normally make assumptions of others? ;)

But then...your "gut" tells you I am a sock :)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

[QUOTE=Roo;559721]A valiant man who had performed the deed wouldn't talk about it, I understand that you don't get that.

Ok, let us say that is true , then the bolded above your own words! Are you now about to deny them when I ask this?
So answer, why that valiant man talked about THE DEED in the first place genius!!!!? If he would suddenly when asked about it now be so humble?
Nobody else did -- HE himself brought the DEED UP BUT THE SUPPOSED VALIANT MAN SUDDENLY WANTS NO PART OF EXPLAINING!
LOGIC HARD TO DEFEAT, and remember accuracy counts ...:laugh2:
Certainly seems to me that you are taking this personal, if so, why?--Tyr

[jimnyc]

I was awarded the world supersize hero medal for saving 100 children from certain death aboard a sinking life raft; all while riding aboard the back of trained porpoises.....true story. I can prove it too; except executive privilege prevents me from doing so.

I smell a dual account! :lol:

[aboutime]

I smell a dual account! :lol:


Why do I want to ask "Who let the dogs out?"

And, why do I need to ask. "When did Obama become a member here?"

Obama Lies, and Democrats Rise!

[jimnyc]

I missed that I guess, where is it?

I believe it never got off the ground, no further than a suggestion. I suppose there would need to be a point person or 2, that would do the validating. I remember back then I said I didn't want to be responsible for receiving such private info, even if just a document with most blacked out. I still feel that way today. I think if anyone should do the validating, it should be a military person, or 2 of you. Darin is more than proven, as is Gaffer, as is CSM, and Mr. P, I think you've also reached that level. And just because I mention a small handful, does not mean I am questioning others, just that I've "known" these gents for quite awhile and have read stories, seen pictures and have no doubt of their integrity. Crap, now I'm gonna feel bad if there is someone I'm forgetting! I'm not saying this to vouch for others anyway, so please forgive me if a name is forgotten, I'm speaking more towards any validation process.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I smell a dual account! :lol:

Me too, I did that in the intro thread with Roo and said so there too. . Smells like that give off quite a foul odor, eh?
Shine a light on one roach it runs undercover but likely already has at least one egg planted to stay and pester.
Or could be just a friend helping a friend.. People do crazy things and nothing as simple as that is shocking but surely is dishonorable IMHO. --Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I believe it never got off the ground, no further than a suggestion. I suppose there would need to be a point person or 2, that would do the validating. I remember back then I said I didn't want to be responsible for receiving such private info, even if just a document with most blacked out. I still feel that way today. I think if anyone should do the validating, it should be a military person, or 2 of you. Darin is more than proven, as is Gaffer, as is CSM, and Mr. P, I think you've also reached that level. And just because I mention a small handful, does not mean I am questioning others, just that I've "known" these gents for quite awhile and have read stories, seen pictures and have no doubt of their integrity. Crap, now I'm gonna feel bad if there is someone I'm forgetting! I'm not saying this to vouch for others anyway, so please forgive me if a name is forgotten, I'm speaking more towards any validation process.

Great ideal in my opinion. Stopping liars should be important especially when its those lying about military service and heroic deeds. Way to go Jimmy!--:beer:--Tyr

[Shadow]

I smell a dual account! :lol:

Bored people branch out...( but then...so do butthurt people.) Ugh...I hate that word butthurt. I need to go wash my keyboard out with soap now. ;)

[Drummond]

Wasn't there a thread about this on DP quite a while back?
Crazy Brits are always behind on the news. :rolleyes:

Hello, 'Gabby'

'Crazy Brits', eh ?

Now I get why you were suggesting an anti-Thatcher line on another thread. But, of course .. in doing that, it seems you were prompted by an anti-British sentiment ?

It figures.

You and I are going to have some fun on these and future threads !

[Drummond]

Great thread, Tyr.

Well, can I add anything that isn't obvious, or hasn't been expressed ? It's surely obvious that bogus claims of valour are disreputable in the extreme, and sap away at the worth of the true and honourable stories.

Quite apart from cheapening the true heroism, if enough bogus stories filtered through into the media, I can imagine you'd end up with a cynical public wondering what could or could not be believed. Or even questioning what any of it was worth. Which of course would cruelly reduce the perceived worth of those who bravely take risks, who suffer for their comrades in so doing.

It is an attack of the best of heroism, and its selflessness, we hear about. It is an attack on the greatness of the human spirit - nothing less than that.

[grannyhawkins]

I've met some folks along my journey, who have been Olympic swimmers pro baseball players, college football players, some I believed, some you could clearly tell they was full of it. Them that is full of it, ain't around too awful long, as they know somebuddy is gonna call them out.

[Shadow]

I've met some folks along my journey, who have been Olympic swimmers pro baseball players, college football players, some I believed, some you could clearly tell they was full of it. Them that is full of it, ain't around too awful long, as they know somebuddy is gonna call them out.

Heck yeah...all of them built like super models/body builders. Are world travelers...seen it all...done it all. Got more money than God. :laugh:

[Mr. P]

I believe it never got off the ground, no further than a suggestion. I suppose there would need to be a point person or 2, that would do the validating. I remember back then I said I didn't want to be responsible for receiving such private info, even if just a document with most blacked out. I still feel that way today. I think if anyone should do the validating, it should be a military person, or 2 of you. Darin is more than proven, as is Gaffer, as is CSM, and Mr. P, I think you've also reached that level. And just because I mention a small handful, does not mean I am questioning others, just that I've "known" these gents for quite awhile and have read stories, seen pictures and have no doubt of their integrity. Crap, now I'm gonna feel bad if there is someone I'm forgetting! I'm not saying this to vouch for others anyway, so please forgive me if a name is forgotten, I'm speaking more towards any validation process.

Oh, so mean THE OLD FARTS! You BITCH! :laugh:

[Shadow]

Great thread, Tyr.

Well, can I add anything that isn't obvious, or hasn't been expressed ? It's surely obvious that bogus claims of valour are disreputable in the extreme, and sap away at the worth of the true and honourable stories.

Quite apart from cheapening the true heroism, if enough bogus stories filtered through into the media, I can imagine you'd end up with a cynical public wondering what could or could not be believed. Or even questioning what any of it was worth. Which of course would cruelly reduce the perceived worth of those who bravely take risks, who suffer for their comrades in so doing.

It is an attack of the best of heroism, and its selflessness, we hear about. It is an attack on the greatness of the human spirit - nothing less than that.

Makes you wonder why they do it. I was reading an article from the New York Times where many professionals gave their opinions on this. Two things stood out to me. Some do it to achieve a feeling of belonging or comradeship out of loneliness.

Another was not so much to show your bravery or to spread tales of heroics...but to associate yourself with the humiliation,harm or abuse soldiers returning from war felt (especially from Vietnam).

Interesting article.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/19/politicians-and-their-fake-war-stories/

[Dilloduck]

Heck yeah...all of them built like super models/body builders. Are world travelers...seen it all...done it all. Got more money than God. :laugh:


You rang ?

[Mr. P]

Makes you wonder why they do it. I was reading an article from the New York Times where many professionals gave their opinions on this. Two things stood out to me. Some do it to achieve a feeling of belonging or comradeship out of loneliness.

Another was not so much to show your bravery or to spread tales of heroics...but to associate yourself with the humiliation,harm or abuse soldiers returning from war felt (especially from Vietnam).

Interesting article.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/19/politicians-and-their-fake-war-stories/

Very much so. Thanks for posting this!

[Drummond]

Makes you wonder why they do it. I was reading an article from the New York Times where many professionals gave their opinions on this. Two things stood out to me. Some do it to achieve a feeling of belonging or comradeship out of loneliness.

Another was not so much to show your bravery or to spread tales of heroics...but to associate yourself with the humiliation,harm or abuse soldiers returning from war felt (especially from Vietnam).

Interesting article.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/19/politicians-and-their-fake-war-stories/

I've just read the article. It almost seems unbelievable that Blumenthal would make reference to a nonexistent service in Vietnam.

I've only two comments where he is concerned. One, public figures like him obviously milk the public likelihood of sympathy for him / identification with him, based on that falsehood. Apart from the fact that it cheapens what REAL servicemen committed themselves to, he was obviously trying to gain a voter base on false premises.

The other is that people like this are stupid. SURELY they must know they're likely to be found out ??? How on earth can they believe that such a lie ultimately won't damage them ?

[aboutime]

I've met some folks along my journey, who have been Olympic swimmers pro baseball players, college football players, some I believed, some you could clearly tell they was full of it. Them that is full of it, ain't around too awful long, as they know somebuddy is gonna call them out.

Hey granny. Good to see you here. Enjoy the newfound freedom to be YOU.

[Shadow]

I've just read the article. It almost seems unbelievable that Blumenthal would make reference to a nonexistent service in Vietnam.

I've only two comments where he is concerned. One, public figures like him obviously milk the public likelihood of sympathy for him / identification with him, based on that falsehood. Apart from the fact that it cheapens what REAL servicemen committed themselves to, he was obviously trying to gain a voter base on false premises.

The other is that people like this are stupid. SURELY they must know they're likely to be found out ??? How on earth can they believe that such a lie ultimately won't damage them ?

Not sure why he thought he would get away with it...other than he wasn't expecting any media scrutiny (he was a democrat after all). Arrogance too maybe? :)

[WiccanLiberal]

As the child of a Navy veteran, I always understood the value of military service. On the subject of heroism, I can only speak from one very personal example. My father served our country for twenty years active and twenty reserve. In all the time he lived, I recall hearing very little of his service experiences. I saw the truth when he had passed and began to look at the campaign ribbons and medals. IMO, heroes don't talk... heroes DO. By the way, I never go out of the house without his old beat up dog tag on my key chain. It is my one true good luck piece. It was with him through some truly hairy stuff and that's a good enough recommendation for me.

[Drummond]

Not sure why he thought he would get away with it...other than he wasn't expecting any media scrutiny (he was a democrat after all). Arrogance too maybe? :)

Well, if stupidity isn't the answer, then arrogance must be it. A Leftie who thinks that people must believe his propaganda because it comes from HIM.

[Kathianne]

As the child of a Navy veteran, I always understood the value of military service. On the subject of heroism, I can only speak from one very personal example. My father served our country for twenty years active and twenty reserve. In all the time he lived, I recall hearing very little of his service experiences. I saw the truth when he had passed and began to look at the campaign ribbons and medals. IMO, heroes don't talk... heroes DO. By the way, I never go out of the house without his old beat up dog tag on my key chain. It is my one true good luck piece. It was with him through some truly hairy stuff and that's a good enough recommendation for me.

Agreed. My dad was drafted in WWII. True to form he turned down a position of being a spotter of aircraft, though he qualified. Instead he thought he'd have less burdens in infantry! :laugh2: Yeah, he didn't get the army needless to say.

He was in the second or third wave on Omaha, landing around 7 am. He made it off the beach, but the gun he and another were pulling up a dune, went off the markers left by marines. Hit a mine. All but my dad were killed and he was blown back onto the beach. He came to with a medic explaining he was going to amputate his hand. "No, you're not," said my dad. He buried it under him, into the sand. Finally the medic said, "Ok, but let me care for it, they'll remove it in UK." So he stuck my dad's hand in a bucket of sulfa (Seriously, wonder drugs. In the UK they had the precursor to penicillin.)

We never heard this or many other stories until my dad was over 70. Even then it only came about because of my inviting him and other vets to speak to my classes. The kids asked questions and got answers. Same with an Air Force pilot in first Gulf War. I could tell his son was hearing story for the first time.

[aboutime]

As the child of a Navy veteran, I always understood the value of military service. On the subject of heroism, I can only speak from one very personal example. My father served our country for twenty years active and twenty reserve. In all the time he lived, I recall hearing very little of his service experiences. I saw the truth when he had passed and began to look at the campaign ribbons and medals. IMO, heroes don't talk... heroes DO. By the way, I never go out of the house without his old beat up dog tag on my key chain. It is my one true good luck piece. It was with him through some truly hairy stuff and that's a good enough recommendation for me.


Thanks for sharing that about your dad. I do hope my two son's remember me that way as well when I'm gone for good.
Serving, and having some reason to explain, or prove it to some. Is just a fact of life. Much like many of us who call ourselves Christians. There is no need to make excuses, or find ways to prove our Faith to others. That's what generally makes those WHO DON'T, OR WON'T so angry with us.
Since this is a forum. A public place in fact.
Why would anyone find a need so important to come here by exposing their own, deepest, personal life facts to others. Just to be accepted, or welcomed into the Clique?
Because of my years in the Navy, and because I am retired. I did not also give up my privacy, or my right to speak freely when I took off my uniform for the last time.
If anyone feels a need to doubt whether YOUR FATHER, or I actually served proudly, and demands that YOU or I, show proof of our service. They can all GO FLY A KITE.
That seems to be a very big problem in our society today. If you can't create some kind of Impressive story to brag about...such as calling yourself a War hero...when you really aren't. You aren't worth the time, or the effort to call yourself an American at all.
Our nation is suffering from a huge DIVIDE in nearly every aspect of our life, and there's no real answers we can find unless...WE LIE to one-another to impress, or to be accepted.
Sorry Folks. I'm too old to start pretending to be something I am not, and never have been. A KISS ASS!

SORRY. I couldn't resist getting all of that off my mind.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Agreed. My dad was drafted in WWII. True to form he turned down a position of being a spotter of aircraft, though he qualified. Instead he thought he'd have less burdens in infantry! :laugh2: Yeah, he didn't get the army needless to say.

He was in the second or third wave on Omaha, landing around 7 am. He made it off the beach, but the gun he and another were pulling up a dune, went off the markers left by marines. Hit a mine. All but my dad were killed and he was blown back onto the beach. He came to with a medic explaining he was going to amputate his hand. "No, you're not," said my dad. He buried it under him, into the sand. Finally the medic said, "Ok, but let me care for it, they'll remove it in UK." So he stuck my dad's hand in a bucket of sulfa (Seriously, wonder drugs. In the UK they had the precursor to penicillin.)

We never heard this or many other stories until my dad was over 70. Even then it only came about because of my inviting him and other vets to speak to my classes. The kids asked questions and got answers. Same with an Air Force pilot in first Gulf War. I could tell his son was hearing story for the first time.

Simply amazing and true hero stories are so interesting. Your dad was a hero IMHO..-:salute:--Tyr

[Kathianne]

Simply amazing and true hero stories are so interesting. Your dad was a hero IMHO..-:salute:--Tyr

He certainly didn't think so. He hated the army, though he supported the troops. He'd be the first to say that he'd never enlist, they had to draft him. He'd also admit that he made poor choices from start to finish. If he'd have taken the 'spotter' post, he'd never have left the states. After he was injured, spending 6 months in England, then 3 months in CA military hospital, he took a position calculating points to figure out which soldiers got out first. He had to serve 18 months beyond what he should have, because he was in 'an essential, but non-dangerous position.' LOL!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He certainly didn't think so. He hated the army, though he supported the troops. He'd be the first to say that he'd never enlist, they had to draft him. He'd also admit that he made poor choices from start to finish. If he'd have taken the 'spotter' post, he'd never have left the states. After he was injured, spending 6 months in England, then 3 months in CA military hospital, he took a position calculating points to figure out which soldiers got out first. He had to serve 18 months beyond what he should have, because he was in 'an essential, but non-dangerous position.' LOL!

Believe me, if he fought on the beach at Omaha and he did his duty then he is a hero to me!--Tyr

[Abbey Marie]

I think roo was talking about those who've performed valiantly; not those who pretend to have.

Ok, I misread him. Thanks. :thumb:

[Roo]

Why not, if they felt the need to announce it in an open forum why would they not think it appropriate to explain about it?
Any reason why you are defending their right to announce the deed but not verify?
Why announce it then!??
Logic is hard to defeat..
I ask yet again, why openly announce the deed if they are so reluctant to tell the story or to verify it's truth?-Tyr

As stated I get that you don't get it it.

If they talk about it they didn't do it......are you always this obtuse?

Now, I know you didn't serve, so I know you have zero idea how those who did think....you don't like liars, nobody does...but you need to understand NOBODY....ilars or otherwise care what you think.

REally...you have an over inflated self worth..

[Roo]

Me too, I did that in the intro thread with Roo and said so there too. . Smells like that give off quite a foul odor, eh?
Shine a light on one roach it runs undercover but likely already has at least one egg planted to stay and pester.
Or could be just a friend helping a friend.. People do crazy things and nothing as simple as that is shocking but surely is dishonorable IMHO. --Tyr

I am laughing at you...I give EVERY moderator here permission to tell you whther or not I have "dual" account.

You aren't up for this "tyr". ;)

[ConHog]

I am laughing at you...I give EVERY moderator here permission to tell you whther or not I have "dual" account.

You aren't up for this "tyr". ;)

The loon thinks you're my sock LOL

[Roo]

[QUOTE=Roo;559721]A valiant man who had performed the deed wouldn't talk about it, I understand that you don't get that.

Ok, let us say that is true , then the bolded above your own words! Are you now about to deny them when I ask this?
So answer, why that valiant man talked about THE DEED in the first place genius!!!!? If he would suddenly when asked about it now be so humble?
Nobody else did -- HE himself brought the DEED UP BUT THE SUPPOSED VALIANT MAN SUDDENLY WANTS NO PART OF EXPLAINING!
LOGIC HARD TO DEFEAT, and remember accuracy counts ...:laugh2:
Certainly seems to me that you are taking this personal, if so, why?--Tyr

I'm not sure what you don't get.....if he brought it up in an open forum, he didn'tdo it.

I enlisted in 1975.
They started coming home late that year...they were damaged.
I sat there in the barracks listening to them, holding them while they cried.
They showed me their pictures...they told me of their friends, those that came home..and those that didn't...some of them were heroes, some weren't...why did they talk to me?
Because I was in the uniform and I cared.....they DIDN'T talk about in the enlisted men's clubs....they didn't talk about it in the Bars in Monterrey Cali...they talked about it in our room late at night...they talked about it when we were in the field on guard duty....or leading or following a convoy on maneuvers.

I am not a hero, I am just a guy who was there when they came home Tyr, no more, no less.

They wouldn't talk about it here.

[Mr. P]

The loon thinks you're my sock LOL

Impossible! Roo doesn't smell THAT bad! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Shadow]

Well, if stupidity isn't the answer, then arrogance must be it. A Leftie who thinks that people must believe his propaganda because it comes from HIM.

What this says is...if he had to make up credibility in being 'tough'...'disciplined'...and 'patriotic'. Must mean he is really none of those things and knows it (along with being a liar). I guess some get away with it? Or else why would they do it?

Same article



the case of public officials, there is something else — something that stems from a need peculiar to their circumstances. Whether a policeman or presidential candidate — or a state attorney general, seeking a Senate seat — they all want to be seen (whether they are or not) as tough, disciplined and patriotic. Those characteristics inhere in no calling more than the military, which is why public official fake warriors don’t claim to have invented a cure for gout or once caught the largest shark. Instead, they almost always fictionalize their military service.

[Roo]

The loon thinks you're my sock LOL

Wow.

[ConHog]

[QUOTE=Tyr-Ziu Saxnot;559724]

I'm not sure what you don't get.....if he brought it up in an open forum, he didn'tdo it.

I enlisted in 1975.
They started coming home late that year...they were damaged.
I sat there in the barracks listening to them, holding them while they cried.
They showed me their pictures...they told me of their friends, those that came home..and those that didn't...some of them were heroes, some weren't...why did they talk to me?
Because I was in the uniform and I cared.....they DIDN'T talk about in the enlisted men's clubs....they didn't talk about it in the Bars in Monterrey Cali...they talked about it in our room late at night...they talked about it when we were in the field on guard duty....or leading or following a convoy on maneuvers.

I am not a hero, I am just a guy who was there when they came home Tyr, no more, no less.

They wouldn't talk about it here.


Wouldn't talk about being there? Because you yourself did that. Or, are you just talking about those who brag about their "heroics" a point on which we would agree.

BTW which branch so Jim can get you the correct badge?

[Roo]

[QUOTE=Roo;560104]


Wouldn't talk about being there? Because you yourself did that. Or, are you just talking about those who brag about their "heroics" a point on which we would agree.

BTW which branch so Jim can get you the correct badge?

They wouldn't talk about the "heroic" things they had done...the thing is...heroes don't think they are heroes....they will almost to a man/woman tell you they were just doing their jobs.....and that just happened to be something that involved their buddies.

US Army.

[ConHog]

[QUOTE=ConHog;560108]

They wouldn't talk about the "heroic" things they had done...the thing is...heroes don't think they are heroes....they will almost to a man/woman tell you they were just doing their jobs.....and that just happened to be something that involved their buddies.

US Army.

I've oft said the same thing here when people try to thank me. Nothing to thank me for. Did my duty, nothing more, nothing less.

I imagine the next time Jim looks at this thread he will take care of your avatar.

[Gaffer]

[QUOTE=Tyr-Ziu Saxnot;559724]

I'm not sure what you don't get.....if he brought it up in an open forum, he didn'tdo it.

I enlisted in 1975.
They started coming home late that year...they were damaged.
I sat there in the barracks listening to them, holding them while they cried.
They showed me their pictures...they told me of their friends, those that came home..and those that didn't...some of them were heroes, some weren't...why did they talk to me?
Because I was in the uniform and I cared.....they DIDN'T talk about in the enlisted men's clubs....they didn't talk about it in the Bars in Monterrey Cali...they talked about it in our room late at night...they talked about it when we were in the field on guard duty....or leading or following a convoy on maneuvers.

I am not a hero, I am just a guy who was there when they came home Tyr, no more, no less.

They wouldn't talk about it here.

Did you screw up the quote function here? Tyr stated he was not in the military. So are you, Roo, talking about your self? Are you quoting from something? Who were they?

A bit of history. The war in Vietnam ended in 1973. The last US combat unit was pulled out at that time. It was the 3/21 inf reg. 196th LIB. In 1975 the north invaded the south with armor and heavy equipment. It was basically the 2nd Vietnam war. There were no US forces there. The few US personnel there were embassy people.

Monterey had the Presideo, which was a naval language school. Then near by, was Ft Ord, there were maybe 3 bars in the whole town at that time. I was quite familiar with the area.

[Roo]

[QUOTE=Roo;560104]

Did you screw up the quote function here? Tyr stated he was not in the military. So are you, Roo, talking about your self? Are you quoting from something? Who were they?

A bit of history. The war in Vietnam ended in 1973. The last US combat unit was pulled out at that time. It was the 3/21 inf reg. 196th LIB. In 1975 the north invaded the south with armor and heavy equipment. It was basically the 2nd Vietnam war. There were no US forces there. The few US personnel there were embassy people.

Monterey had the Presideo, which was a naval language school. Then near by, was Ft Ord, there were maybe 3 bars in the whole town at that time. I was quite familiar with the area.

Then you would know the 571st...(smile)....and if you were there you would know the men who were coming home...when did Saigon fall fella?

Enlighten me as to the men I could have, or have not been there for...or the men I was on manuvers with at Hunter Ligget....sorry, you lose.

Tell me about how they couldn't have been with the Hmong Tribe......LRP Patrols....;)

[Abbey Marie]

[QUOTE=Gaffer;560130]

Then you would know the 571st...(smile)....and if you were there you would know the men who were coming home...when did Saigon fall fella?

;)

Oh lord, are you really questioning Gaffer on his service? :facepalm99:

[ConHog]

[QUOTE=Roo;560137]

Oh lord, are you really questioning Gaffer on his service? :facepalm99:

Seems like several are questioning several despite the fact that Jim just a week or so ago posted that he didn't like it and didn't want to see it. Maybe things have changed in that week?

[Roo]

[QUOTE=Roo;560137]

Oh lord, are you really questioning Gaffer on his service? :facepalm99:

Nope, just that he really is in no position to judge anyone elses :)

I was there.

[Gaffer]

[QUOTE=Gaffer;560130]

Then you would know the 571st...(smile)....and if you were there you would know the men who were coming home...when did Saigon fall fella?

Enlighten me as to the men I could have, or have not been there for...or the men I was on manuvers with at Hunter Ligget....sorry, you lose.

Tell me about how they couldn't have been with the Hmong Tribe......LRP Patrols....;)

Saigon fell in 1975. We had withdrawn all of our forces in 1973. The LRRP's and special forces had also been withdrawn in 1973. Any operating after 73 would have been doing so as part of the CIA.

571st, was that CDEC? Were they still active then? I remember Hunter Leggit very well. Cold as hell every night and hot in the day time. They put us out one day to help fight a forest fire there. One that we had started on the firing range? I learned to respect forest fire fighters back then. It's miserable job.

I don't question you. I question some of the stories you were told. But there's no way to prove or disprove anything at this point.

The LRRP's were division level troops. Volunteers pulled from the regular ranks. Their job was to observe and report so that air strikes and operations could be launched. It's highly unlikely they would be put into a regular army unit unless they were just waiting to get out and were in a holding company.

No special forces would have been in a regular unit either. They were too highly trained to waste. A few might have still been in country up to 1975 working with the Mongetards. Again CIA sponsored.

[Gaffer]

[QUOTE=Abbey;560138]

Nope, just that he really is in no position to judge anyone elses :)

I was there.

No judgment here. Just trying to get some clarification.

And I never talked to anyone else that was at Ft Ord and Hunter Leggit. I was there in 68. So you sparked my interest.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

[QUOTE=Roo;560104]

Did you screw up the quote function here? Tyr stated he was not in the military. So are you, Roo, talking about your self? Are you quoting from something? Who were they?

A bit of history. The war in Vietnam ended in 1973. The last US combat unit was pulled out at that time. It was the 3/21 inf reg. 196th LIB. In 1975 the north invaded the south with armor and heavy equipment. It was basically the 2nd Vietnam war. There were no US forces there. The few US personnel there were embassy people.

Monterey had the Presideo, which was a naval language school. Then near by, was Ft Ord, there were maybe 3 bars in the whole town at that time. I was quite familiar with the area.

Yes, looks like somebody screwed up the quote function , whether by accident or by design I do not know but words are being attributed to me that I never posted here or anywhere else for that matter!
Thanks for catching it my friend! -Tyr

[logroller]

.

Monterey had the Presideo, which was a naval language school. Then near by, was Ft Ord, there were maybe 3 bars in the whole town at that time. I was quite familiar with the area.

I wasn't born yet...but I was in those bars in spirit.

[SassyLady]

[QUOTE=Roo;560143]

No judgment here. Just trying to get some clarification.

And I never talked to anyone else that was at Ft Ord and Hunter Leggit. I was there in 68. So you sparked my interest.

Hey, you guys, guess what.....my husband was at Ft. Hunter Liggett in 2004. I was there visiting during the big earthquake that damaged Paso Robles.

Gaffer ... it was very hot there. Husband was with the 579th Engineer Battalion and part of what they were doing down there was getting the airstrip cleaned up .... lots of trees had grown up around it during the intervening years.

[logroller]

Hey, you guys, guess what.....my husband was at Ft. Hunter Liggett in 2004. I was there visiting during the big earthquake that damaged Paso Robles.

Gaffer ... it was very hot there. Husband was with the 579th Engineer Battalion and part of what they were doing down there was getting the airstrip cleaned up .... lots of trees had grown up around it during the intervening years.
Totally off topic, but it's interesting how many military bases/forts are near to where the California missions are/were. Do you think it's because the locations are strategically defensible, or because the bases were placed to defend the inhabitants?

[SassyLady]

Totally off topic, but it's interesting how many military bases/forts are near to where the California missions are/were. Do you think it's because the locations are strategically defensible, or because the bases were placed to defend the inhabitants?

Both? I really didn't know there were so many located close to Missions.

[logroller]

Both? I really didn't know there were so many located close to Missions.

Some of them are clearly placed in spots which offer advantages to both missions and bases,e.g. ports like San Diego, Monterey, San Fran. But what made me think of it was you mentioning Paso Robles, and there's a training base (Camp Roberts) north of there which also has a mission (San Miguel) nearby. Mission San Antonio de Padua is actually on Fort Hunter-Ligget. I know the missions were originally spaced 1 days foot-travel apart; do you think the military does the same for strategic reasons?

Here's a map of the missions. http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNCaRipdW6BdLRuWwziEdiY-e-7-WzGIHh3SpZH9CguGzm9o9ztSMiPF3lhg

Pick one and then look at the surrounding area, there appears to be a military base within 5-10 miles of each(usually less). Maybe I'm wrong; but it is curious.

[SassyLady]

Perhaps the missions were originally placed in strategic positions. I don't know about the bases being based on travel distance. I think they were mostly placed on land owned by government.

I've been on most of the military installations in CA ... and I knew about the missions, just never connected them with the installations.

[CSM]

Interesting thread. All I know is that most of the real heroes I know are pretty humble guys. They don't talk about their exploits to impress anyone. That's not the same as telling war stories, just so ya know. I've heard and told some real whoppers!As for who served and who didn't that frequent this board, I think I have a pretty good idea and truthfully, it just doesnt matter all that much to me other than giving the respect to the person that I think vets (and policemen, firefighters, etc) deserve. That being said, the ones I respect most on this board are those who are respectful to others, debate in a reasonable and civil manner, and post with some thought given to what they are stating. The problem I have with those who would act as they have in the posted links is that they are seeking personal gain (economically, politically, etc) through fraud. Hero or not, anyone who commits fraud lacks integrity , honor and all those other fancy words that many citizens no longer believe have value. Heck, ask kids in school today what those words mean and they look at you like you have three heads.

[Missileman]

I've met some folks along my journey, who have been Olympic swimmers pro baseball players, college football players, some I believed, some you could clearly tell they was full of it. Them that is full of it, ain't around too awful long, as they know somebuddy is gonna call them out.

Did some of them give you a bunch of doodelysquat? :laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

As stated I get that you don't get it it.

If they talk about it they didn't do it......are you always this obtuse?

Now, I know you didn't serve, so I know you have zero idea how those who did think....you don't like liars, nobody does...but you need to understand NOBODY....ilars or otherwise care what you think.

REally...you have an over inflated self worth..

Really, NOBODY....liars or otherwise care what I think? So you say! That is rather a conceited statement on your part . For with it you clearly attempt to speak for not only yourself but everybody else here as well! The over inflated self worth comes into play with that statement by you IMHO!
I am content with being able to speak more plainly here than at any other site I've ever been a part of, regardless of who does or does not care what I think! If you do not care then why bother posting replies to my words? I'm fine with you ignoring my posts. Give it a shot if it trips your trigger.-Tyr

[Gaffer]

[QUOTE=Gaffer;560166]

Hey, you guys, guess what.....my husband was at Ft. Hunter Liggett in 2004. I was there visiting during the big earthquake that damaged Paso Robles.

Gaffer ... it was very hot there. Husband was with the 579th Engineer Battalion and part of what they were doing down there was getting the airstrip cleaned up .... lots of trees had grown up around it during the intervening years.

I remember that it was extremely cold at night there. We slept in arctic style sleeping bags on cots in shacks they called barracks. Heated by a wood burning stove. Then during the day it got sweltering hot. I didn't know the place was still used. There wasn't much there when I was there. Never saw an airstrip, but then we didn't go anywhere accept the range and the test area where they were experimenting with fire power and squad sizes.

I want to hear from Roo about his battalion. see if it was the same one I was in when I got back. I know it was called CDEC but don't remember the number designation. It was a holding battalion where they stuck us to wait for our enlistment to run out. A bunch of combat veterans all waiting to get out, so you can imagine the attitudes.

[logroller]

I remember that it was extremely cold at night there. We slept in arctic style sleeping bags on cots in shacks they called barracks. Heated by a wood burning stove. Then during the day it got sweltering hot. I didn't know the place was still used. There wasn't much there when I was there. Never saw an airstrip, but then we didn't go anywhere accept the range and the test area where they were experimenting with fire power and squad sizes.

I want to hear from Roo about his battalion. see if it was the same one I was in when I got back. I know it was called CDEC but don't remember the number designation. It was a holding battalion where they stuck us to wait for our enlistment to run out. A bunch of combat veterans all waiting to get out, so you can imagine the attitudes.
Anxious...to brag on their heroic exploits.j/k:cheers2:

[aboutime]

Bored people branch out...( but then...so do butthurt people.) Ugh...I hate that word butthurt. I need to go wash my keyboard out with soap now. ;)

Washing your keyboard won't help. Try a large bottle of WhiteOut on your monitor. That blocks everything pretty well.
As for those who feel they need to branch out.
Experience with such things over the years just means...being patient, and waiting for them to slip up with a lie they forgot they told, and try to cover it with a second lie.

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature, or Tell Lies.

[aboutime]

[QUOTE=Roo;560104]


Wouldn't talk about being there? Because you yourself did that. Or, are you just talking about those who brag about their "heroics" a point on which we would agree.

BTW which branch so Jim can get you the correct badge?


"Trust, but Verify".

I didn't want to find another forum where all of us pitted each other against ourselves. Not again.

How bout, we all agree to simply JUST BE HONEST with one-another. I mean HONEST, as in TELLING THE TRUTH?

Why try to do to this forum, what we are complaining Obama is trying to do to America?

As in. Destroying something we all want, and need to be a comfortable place to hang our hat, without fearing someone is LURKING in the shadows...waiting to pounce on us, expose us, or destroy us?

Anyone?

[Abbey Marie]

Interesting thread. All I know is that most of the real heroes I know are pretty humble guys. They don't talk about their exploits to impress anyone. That's not the same as telling war stories, just so ya know. I've heard and told some real whoppers!As for who served and who didn't that frequent this board, I think I have a pretty good idea and truthfully, it just doesnt matter all that much to me other than giving the respect to the person that I think vets (and policemen, firefighters, etc) deserve. That being said, the ones I respect most on this board are those who are respectful to others, debate in a reasonable and civil manner, and post with some thought given to what they are stating. The problem I have with those who would act as they have in the posted links is that they are seeking personal gain (economically, politically, etc) through fraud. Hero or not, anyone who commits fraud lacks integrity , honor and all those other fancy words that many citizens no longer believe have value. Heck, ask kids in school today what those words mean and they look at you like you have three heads.

Couldn't agree more. I've been saying for years to anyone who will listen, that folks today have little-to-no integrity, and it's hurting us in just about every way imaginable.

[Abbey Marie]

[QUOTE=ConHog;560108]


"Trust, but Verify".

I didn't want to find another forum where all of us pitted each other against ourselves. Not again.

How bout, we all agree to simply JUST BE HONEST with one-another. I mean HONEST, as in TELLING THE TRUTH?

Why try to do to this forum, what we are complaining Obama is trying to do to America?

As in. Destroying something we all want, and need to be a comfortable place to hang our hat, without fearing someone is LURKING in the shadows...waiting to pounce on us, expose us, or destroy us?

Anyone?

Let's be out in the open about one thing right now: Are these repeated calling-out posts and insults I'm seeing lately among new members based on bad interactions at another board? I don't need names; I can see those for myself.

[Roo]

The 571st is an MP Unit....and Ft. Ord was a helluva a place to be an MP...we held manuvers at Liggett....I was in the lead jeep one night as we were moving the camp..on the passenger side....the "enemy" dropped an artillery simulator on the road and we ran over it, I was dozing..it scared the hell out of me.

[Gaffer]

The 571st is an MP Unit....and Ft. Ord was a helluva a place to be an MP...we held manuvers at Liggett....I was in the lead jeep one night as we were moving the camp..on the passenger side....the "enemy" dropped an artillery simulator on the road and we ran over it, I was dozing..it scared the hell out of me.

:laugh: One of those going off anywhere near you would scare the hell out of you even if you were awake. A real what the hell moment.

That's the kind of "war stories" most often exchanged by vets. The funny or weird experiences. As an MP you probably have a number of them as well. Feel free to share.

[Roo]

:laugh: One of those going off anywhere near you would scare the hell out of you even if you were awake. A real what the hell moment.

That's the kind of "war stories" most often exchanged by vets. The funny or weird experiences. As an MP you probably have a number of them as well. Feel free to share.

What I left out was the part where I pissed myself when it went off.

[Gaffer]

What I left out was the part where I pissed myself when it went off.

That's what I was wondering, but didn't want to bring it up. :laugh: And I wouldn't blame you. Those things will make you jump even when you know they are being set off. I got to experience one myself in training.

[CSM]

I fell asleep on the gun line one night; I was off shift but decided to stay close in case they needed me. Fire missions were going off all night and I slept through most of them. Then a thunder storm came through and the thunder woke me up! Slept through cannon fire and thunder wakes me up ... what's up wid dat???

[CSM]

I showed up, I stood up, I stepped forward. <O:p></O:p>
I raised my right hand, I stood in the gap, I walked in the fire. <O:p></O:p>
I did not run, I did not hide, I did not dodge, I did not evade.' <O:p></O:p>
Consequently… <O:p></O:p>
I have nothing to prove, no one to convince,<O:p></O:p>
those who matter, already know. <O:p></O:p>
Those who don't, never will. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
-Author Unknown<O:p></O:p>