My Gripes: BUSH - OBAMA - ROMNEY

[revelarts]

O k I've mentioned before that i think Obama is practically Bush 2.0
so here are at list of some of the issues i've had with Bush and/or now Obama and I'm just wondering if I'm going to get a better deal with Romney?

I'm just going to list them right now
But will Romney be more constitutional or conservative?


Obama's Almost just like Bush on the economy, More Bailouts More Easing.
Obama's Almost just like Bush on the the War in Afghanistan, more troops.
Obama's worst than Bush on the TSA, it is expanding from the airports to bus stations and the highways.
Obama's worse than Bush on attacking others countries without congressional consent- Lybia,
Obama's worse than Bush on Drone striking other countries -Pakistan, Yeman Somolia more?
Obama's worse than Bush in that he says the Prez can Kill ANYONE including citizens.
Obama's worse than Bush in that he says he can put ANYONE including citizen in jail indefinitely.
Obama's worse than Bush in that he claims he believes in privacy but supports Spying on Citizens anytime anywhere without warrants and Drones in the U.S..

Obama's Almost just like Bush in that his Justice Dept is committing Crimes and covering up -Fast in Furious... etc
Obama's worse than Bush in that he has punished and jailed Gov't whistle blowers .
Obama's Almost just like Bush in that he covers the oil companies in secrecy when they piss in the Gulf.
Obama's worse than Bush in that he got high, smoked weed and did coke, but enforces the drugs laws and has troops in Afghan protecting poppies.
Obama's Almost just like Bush in that he doesn't REALLY want Gitmo closed.
Obama s better than Bush on Iraq, i can give him some props is on the reduction in IRAQ.
Obama's worse than Bush in that he is violently pro abortion
Obama's worse than Bush in that Covers for the Bush Crimes
Obama's worse than Bush in that he openly supports Same sex marriage.
Obama's worse than Bush in that he is violently pro abortion
Concerning health care: Government run/controlled health care is Socialist. period.
In this case however the Health care law is more of a Boon for Big Pharma. Not the people. Less choice less docs, more Big Pharma lead medicine.
Obama's Almost just like Bush on NAFTA
Obama's Almost just like if not worse than Bush on Lobbyist
Obama's Almost just like if not worse than Bush on Transparency
Obama's is worse than Bush concerning the U.N.
Obama's is worse than Bush concerning Global -not man made- warming

I'm sure plenty of you don't like my assement but
How do you think Romney lines up here in general, IMO he in the As bad as category overall.
Illl have to check on some of these.

[ConHog]

RE:Gitmo

I think it's a damned shame that we ever knew the place existed to begin with.

Do you think our government should have ANY secrets Rev?

[revelarts]

RE:Gitmo

I think it's a damned shame that we ever knew the place existed to begin with.

Do you think our government should have ANY secrets Rev?

Do you think there should be any area of gov't that's completely unaccountable?

[ConHog]

Do you think there should be any area of gov't that's completely unaccountable?

That is not the same question Rev.

Do I think that any part of the gov't should just have a blank check? No of course not.

Now, do you think that no part of the gov't should have secrets?

[DragonStryk72]

That is not the same question Rev.

Do I think that any part of the gov't should just have a blank check? No of course not.

Now, do you think that no part of the gov't should have secrets?

There should be some, but detaining people without bail, arraignment, or even evidence, using pain to get them to talk, and denying them not only an attorney, but even the right to say "I didn't do it. I don't know anything". Even if only 1/10 were innocent, that's still just too many CH. Even moreso against a far inferior foe that has a success rate of one random hail mary attack once every ten years that can have its entire country stripped from them in a matter of 90 days. And even then, it required us to drop the ball in multiple areas of governance for them to pull it off (Taking federal marshals off the planes, no communication between intel agencies, etc.)


"He is endowed by his Creator with certain inalienable right, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" Which part of that supports the above? It is our central tenet that all people, American or not, are born with inherent rights. There was never a mention of "Well, except for those guys over there. Fuck them!"

It would be different if we were collecting evidence, or holding them for limited periods for questioning, but that wasn't the case. In general, things that exist in the shadows only are not good.

[ConHog]

There should be some, but detaining people without bail, arraignment, or even evidence, using pain to get them to talk, and denying them not only an attorney, but even the right to say "I didn't do it. I don't know anything". Even if only 1/10 were innocent, that's still just too many CH. Even moreso against a far inferior foe that has a success rate of one random hail mary attack once every ten years that can have its entire country stripped from them in a matter of 90 days. And even then, it required us to drop the ball in multiple areas of governance for them to pull it off (Taking federal marshals off the planes, no communication between intel agencies, etc.)


"He is endowed by his Creator with certain inalienable right, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" Which part of that supports the above? It is our central tenet that all people, American or not, are born with inherent rights. There was never a mention of "Well, except for those guys over there. Fuck them!"

It would be different if we were collecting evidence, or holding them for limited periods for questioning, but that wasn't the case. In general, things that exist in the shadows only are not good.

I wasn't referring solely to Guantanamo; more the our methods of gathering intel. I could be convinced that even terrorists deserve their day in court. I'm not there, yet but I could be convinced.

[revelarts]

That is not the same question Rev.

Do I think that any part of the gov't should just have a blank check? No of course not.

Now, do you think that no part of the gov't should have secrets?

Short answer, very very few.
and even those should have fixed expiration. And be legally bound to be revealed.

The only things IMO that should possibly never come to full light are the details of some weapons.
And the IDs of spies or undercover cops. Their activities however should come to light in time, in some form.

But here's the thing, the people have granted the gov't the privilege and responsibility of using secrecy for the people's benefit, but it's been abused by overuse and by what it attempts to hide from public view for political reasons. It's gone much to far.

Secrecy to CYGov'tA is not what it's for. The ends do not justify the means, even if you make it secret. the constitution is the LAW (suppose to be anyway). the privileged of Secrecy is not granted as a cover for constitutionally illegal activity or minor BS.

"...The purpose of government is to protect the secrecy and the privacy of all individuals, not the secrecy of government...." Ron Paul


"...Until we have a better relationship between private performance and the public truth, as was demonstrated with Watergate, we as the public are absolutely right to remain suspicious, contemptuous even, of the secrecy and the misinformation which is the digest of our news..." LeCarre



"...Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government..." Jefferson

"...The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant.... " Robespierre

[revelarts]

There should be some, but detaining people without bail, arraignment, or even evidence, using pain to get them to talk, and denying them not only an attorney, but even the right to say "I didn't do it. I don't know anything". Even if only 1/10 were innocent, that's still just too many CH. Even moreso against a far inferior foe that has a success rate of one random hail mary attack once every ten years that can have its entire country stripped from them in a matter of 90 days. And even then, it required us to drop the ball in multiple areas of governance for them to pull it off (Taking federal marshals off the planes, no communication between intel agencies, etc.)


"He is endowed by his Creator with certain inalienable right, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" Which part of that supports the above? It is our central tenet that all people, American or not, are born with inherent rights. There was never a mention of "Well, except for those guys over there. Fuck them!"

It would be different if we were collecting evidence, or holding them for limited periods for questioning, but that wasn't the case. In general, things that exist in the shadows only are not good.

well said.

[ConHog]

Short answer, very very few.
and even those should have fixed expiration. And be legally bound to be revealed.

The only things IMO that should possibly never come to full light are the details of some weapons.
And the IDs of spies or undercover cops. Their activities however should come to light in time, in some form.

But here's the thing, the people have granted the gov't the privilege and responsibility of using secrecy for the people's benefit, but it's been abused by overuse and by what it attempts to hide from public view for political reasons. It's gone much to far.

Secrecy to CYGov'tA is not what it's for. The ends do not justify the means, even if you make it secret. the constitution is the LAW (suppose to be anyway). the privileged of Secrecy is not granted as a cover for constitutionally illegal activity or minor BS.

"...The purpose of government is to protect the secrecy and the privacy of all individuals, not the secrecy of government...." Ron Paul


"...Until we have a better relationship between private performance and the public truth, as was demonstrated with Watergate, we as the public are absolutely right to remain suspicious, contemptuous even, of the secrecy and the misinformation which is the digest of our news..." LeCarre



"...Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government..." Jefferson

"...The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant.... " Robespierre


I don't disagree with anything you just said. I to believe the gov't too often hides behind "national security" when that is just BS cover up.

The problem obviously is who watches the watchers?

[gabosaurus]

A lemon disguised as a lime is still a lemon.
Most of the right's complaints about Obama are the same as the left's complaints about Bush. Politics is like that.

[revelarts]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?32143-OBama-s-policies-vs-Bush&highlight=Bush+obama

[revelarts]

"What did George Bush give us? He gave us No Child Left Behind, he gave us Medicare Part D, further extension of a liability that we didn't currently need. He gave us, or for many people, a war that was unnecessary. So he was a disappointment."
Dick Armey, Former House Republican Leader

[revelarts]

The following are 40 ways that Barack Obama and Mitt Romney were essentially the same candidate….

1. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both supported TARP.

2. Mitt Romney supported Barack Obama’s “economic stimulus” packages.

3. Mitt Romney says that Barack Obama’s bailout of the auto industry was actually his idea.

4. Neither candidate supports immediately balancing the federal budget.

5. They both believe in big government and they both have a track record of being big spenders while in office.

6. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both fully support the Federal Reserve.

7. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are both on record as saying that the president should not question the “independence” of the Federal Reserve.

8. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney have both said that Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke did a good job during the last financial crisis.

9. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both felt that Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke deserved to be renominated to a second term.

10. Both candidates oppose a full audit of the Federal Reserve.

11. Both candidates are on record as saying that U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner has done a good job.

12. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney have both been big promoters of universal health care.

13. Mitt Romney was the one who developed the plan that Obamacare was later based upon.

14. Wall Street absolutely showers both candidates with campaign contributions.

15. Neither candidate wants to eliminate the income tax or the IRS.

16. Both candidates want to keep personal income tax rates at the exact same levels for the vast majority of Americans.

17. Both candidates are “open” to the idea of imposing a Value Added Tax on the American people.

18. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both believe that the TSA is doing a great job.

19. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both supported the NDAA.

20. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both supported the renewal of the Patriot Act.

21. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both believe that the federal government should be able to indefinitely detain American citizens that are considered to be terrorists.

22. Both candidates believe that American citizens suspected of being terrorists can be killed by the president without a trial.

23. Barack Obama has not closed Guantanamo Bay like he promised to do, and Mitt Romney actually wants to double the number of prisoners held there.

24. Both candidates support the practice of “extraordinary rendition”.

25. They both support the job-killing “free trade” agenda of the global elite.

26. They both accuse each other of shipping jobs out of the country and both of them are right.

27. Both candidates are extremely soft on illegal immigration.

28. Neither candidate has any military experience. This is the first time that this has happened in a U.S. election since 1944.

29. Both candidates earned a degree from Harvard University.

30. They both believe in the theory of man-made global warming.

31. Mitt Romney has said that he will support a “cap and trade” carbon tax scheme (like the one Barack Obama wants) as longas the entire globe goes along with it.

32. Both candidates have a very long record of supporting strict gun control measures.

33. Both candidates have been pro-abortion most of their careers. Mitt Romney’s “conversion” to the pro-life cause has been questioned by many. In fact, Mitt Romney has made millions on Bain Capital’s investment in a company called “Stericycle” that incinerates aborted babies collected from family planning clinics.

34. Barack Obama and Mitt Romney both believe that the Boy Scout ban on openly gay troop leaders is wrong.

35. They both believe that a “two state solution” will bring lasting peace between the Palestinians and Israel.

36. Both candidates have a history of nominating extremely liberal judges.

37. Like Barack Obama, Mitt Romney also plans to add “signing statements” to bills when he signs them into law.

38. They both have a horrible record when it comes to job creation.

39. Both candidates believe that the president has the power to take the country to war without getting the approval of the U.S. Congress.

40. Both candidates plan to continue running up more government debt even though the U.S. government is already 16 trillion dollars in debt.



with links
40 Points That Prove That Barack Obama And Mitt Romney Are Essentially The Same Candidate - BlackListedNews.com (http://www.blacklistednews.com/40_Points_That_Prove_That_Barack_Obama_And_Mitt_Ro mney_Are_Essentially_The_Same_Candidate/21051/0/38/38/Y/M.html)

__________________

[revelarts]

Hard left African American source

Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On

Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On | Black Agenda Report (http://blackagendareport.com/content/closer-you-think-top-15-things-romney-and-obama-agree)


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While Left And Right Fight, Power Wins
Paul Craig Roberts - Official Homepage (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/)


i've tried explain this for a long time to people i know but somehow they keep asking ,
"so are you a conservative.. or a republican... a libertarian... a leftist... what.."
Quote:

<tbody>
My experience with the American left and right leads to the conclusion that the left sees private power as the source of oppression and government as the countervailing and rectifying power, while the right sees government as the source of oppression and a free and unregulated private sector as the countervailing and rectifying power. Both are concerned with restraining the power to oppress, but they take opposite positions on the source of the oppressive power and remedy.

The right is correct that government power is the problem, and the left is correct that private power is the problem. Therefore, whether power is located within the government or private sectors cannot reduce, constrain, or minimize power.

How does the progressive Obama Regime differ from the tax-cut, deregulation Bush/Cheney Regime? Both are complicit in the maximization of executive branch power and in the minimization of citizens’ civil liberties and, thus, of the people’s power. Did the progressive Obama reverse the right-wing Bush’s destruction of habeas corpus and due process? No. Obama further minimized the people’s power. Bush could throw us in prison for life without proof of cause. Obama can execute us without proof of cause. They do this in the name of protecting us from terrorism, but not from their terrorism.

Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.

The view of human nature held by the right and the left depends on whether the human nature is located in the private sector or the government sector (“public sector”). For the right (and for libertarians) human nature in the private sector is good and serves the public; in the government sector human nature is evil and oppressive. For the left, it is the opposite. As the same people go back and forth from one sector to the other, one marvels at the transformations of their character and morality. A good man becomes evil, and an evil man becomes good, depending on the location of his activities.

One of my professors, James M. Buchanan who won a Nobel Prize, pointed out that people are just as self-serving whether they are in the private sector or in government. The problem is how to constrain government and private power to the best extent possible.

Our Founding Fathers’ solution was to minimize the power of government and to rely on contending factions among private interests to prevent the rise of an oligarchy. In the event that contending private interests failed, the oligarchy that seized the government would not have much public power to exercise.

The Founding Fathers’ design more or less worked except for interludes of civil war and economic crisis until the cold war built up the power of government and the deregulation of the Clinton and Bush presidencies built up the power of private interests. It all came together with the accumulation of new, dictatorial powers in the executive branch in the name of protecting us from terrorists and with deregulation’s creation of powerful corporations “too big to fail.”....

</tbody>

Quote:
Paul Craig Roberts, Boiling Frogs Post contributing author, is a former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury and former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He has been reporting on executive branch and cases of prosecutorial abuse for two decades. He has written or co-written eight books, contributed chapters to numerous books, and has published many articles in journals of scholarship. Mr. Roberts has testified before congressional committees on 30 occasions on issues of economic policy, and has been a critic of both Democratic and Republican administrations. You can visit his website here.

[revelarts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu5OhONi15c

[revelarts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_U1x46do58

[revelarts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgil5gKBwWE

[revelarts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc713i0wbRQ

[revelarts]

Secret sites still open, with "interrogation",
and Bombing countries without declarations of war


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-41yMDpjqw

[Olivia]

That's quite a list you have there! Truth? Shrug. Personally I would give anything to have had Romney in the WH for eight years than what's in there now.


Obama is a disaster. And all this list making means zero.

[aboutime]

This entire thread sounds very much like REV is spending all of his time, trying to convince himself that everything he states here is...absolutely true.

And those who believe him, without exception. Probably are convinced Rev is always right about everything too!

[Elessar]

Ouch! Old thread dug up to hammer GWB...condemn Romney?

Face it...Obama is a failure without balls.

George had Balls...and strode in the face of terrorism, but given faulty Intel (That 90% of the civilized world agreed with)... Something Clinton 'never' exhibited except for tossing
some cruise missles at aspirin factories! The Saudi's offered Bi Laden's head on a plate as did
Yemen and Dubai. Clinton was too damn busy fending off blow-jobs and sexual harassment threats, and his wife was too busy ignoring anything that would keep her from her 'power'. One of my friends hubby was a LtCol on the White house detail. she's a member here too.


And you dig up this trash to hammer Romney and GWB? Is your nose that far up Obama's
poop chute? That clown is the worst thing this country has seen since Andrew Johnson!

Romney is a decent man; GWB might be flawed, but he did this nation far better than this socialist coward you defend.

After 9/11, GWB consolidated the Intel and LE agencies under one hood. Before that, we could not work with each other except by permission. I did LE searches and busts. Before GWB fixed it, each single agency kept their own little secrets. Combined, as was found out after, there was enough intel to stop 9/11, but each agency had their own kingdom...nobody shared without permissions. GWB stopped that shit, but never blamed any predecessor, unlike the idiot we have now.

Obamas did not get Bin Laden....GWB's change in policy did, you fool


Want more? I'll tell you about post 9/11 and Katrina that ignorant fools blame on GWB....

Try me...

[Elessar]

This entire thread sounds very much like REV is spending all of his time, trying to convince himself that everything he states here is...absolutely true.

And those who believe him, without exception. Probably are convinced Rev is always right about everything too!....

Not me...not a fan of over-bloviating..

[gabosaurus]

Dubya had the balls to lie to America ... again and again and again. Dude was an idiot and a war criminal.

[Elessar]

Dubya had the balls to lie to America ... again and again and again. Dude was an idiot and a war criminal.

War criminal....Feh...only to far left-wing zealots who hide behind locked doors and ignore reality.

List the recognized, Globally recognized War Crimes!

Next you will be trotting out that "No Blood For Oil" Code Pink / Democratic Underground Chant.

Give it a rest...

[revelarts]

Elessar I don't like ANY of the 3 . they are too much the same for me.

Bush 'had balls' yeah whatever, All three had ball to piss on the constitution and send troops into place that never attacked us plus... well see the list.

If you want to make the presidency about popularly contest over which one has a better PR presence in your opinion, The Marlboro Man or or the Virginia Slims Lady , I'm not going to debate that.
My point is they BOTH are selling cancer sticks. and the Rs and Ds are acting like they are sooo much different.

---look at what a manly man the Marlboro man is, that's the kinda smokes i want. yes Sireee. It's sooo much better than those wimpy feminine Virginia Slims. those things cause cancer, She's trying to kill us!--:rolleyes:

[gabosaurus]

Never was a member of Code Pink. Been banned from DU twice.
Try again. :cool:

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52193619.jpg

[LongTermGuy]

Never was a member of Code Pink. Been banned from DU twice.
Try again. :cool:

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/52193619.jpg
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i25/Conormacnessa/873744.jpg

http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/104385/images/future-must-not-belong-to-those-who-slander-prophet-islam-mohammad-barack-hussein-obama-muslim.jpg

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/1b/e8/21/1be8212deacc94ffbe2819a16fc6b6d3.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nR36BdwaElE/Sy_9unZzaFI/AAAAAAAAAOE/JeL82bSjcYc/s1600/george-w-bush-miss-me-yet.jpg

[aboutime]

Dubya had the balls to lie to America ... again and again and again. Dude was an idiot and a war criminal.


Once again, and more than twelve years later. PROVE IT gabby. Provided documented, verifiable, accurate, factual proof to back up your accusations that Bush lied to America.

So far. After 14 years. Not one Honest person has ever shown me, or anyone else Honest Proof that Bush ever lied.
Of course. Like many others. I expect you will use rumor, opinions, fabrications, and twisted context to back-up your accusations. But...as expected. You too, will fail to provide HONEST FACTS.

[revelarts]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUcycIc7o_4

Newt Gingrich: President Obama, Mitt Romney the Same Person