What Needs to Go?

[DragonStryk72]

I was writing in another thread about the dire need for fiscal stability in our country, and that we should basically toss every other issue for now. The problem is, what do we cut, and by how much? It's clear that pretty every section of the government has some incredible waste in it, but some are of course bigger sinks than others. This isn't so much about what we want to see cut, in so much as what we believe needs to be cut in order to start moving forward.

Starting with my own mode of thinking, we have to go after the IRS first. It's where we receive the money that gets spent, and so we need to start there, no so much with a cut as an enormous restructuring. Our current system is so prone to abuse, nobody's even tries to argue anymore that it isn't broken. I'm not gonna get the Fair Tax, and I'm okay with that, but we have to get rid of the current Progressive Tax System. While we keep trying to emulate Europe, we should be emulating Russia in this, who are on a Flat Tax, and are becoming more steady now, as so many other countries become less. Even if we don't use a straight Flat Tax, we've gotta do better than what we have right now.

The TSA needs to be brought back down to it's pre-9/11 role, with funding to match. There will always be threats to the US, just as there always have been for the entire history of country, and most being far more credible than the external threats we face today. Keep the federal Marshals on the planes, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here, now.

The DOE needs to be almost entirely scrapped. Not kidding, there's nothing it's doing that wasn't already being taken care of previously at the state level, really, and it's actually made things worse with the increased standardized testing. We need to invest principals with more power over their individual schools, as well, so that they can fire crap teachers, and not have to face a union strike every time they have to let someone go, as well as to make the changes in curriculum needed to give our kids the best education possible. I firmly believe CH is in a far better position to know what is best for his students than the politicians in DC are.

DHS is also on my list of hard cuts. What we needed were protocols for information-share between branches that were clear and concise, not an entirely new branch of government with questionably broad powers. A simple line of text saying something along the lines of, "When you receive intel of an imminent attack of US soil, consult with all branches on it, and share your intel." What it gave us was the ramp-up in the TSA, the cluster fuck that bent FEMA over a rail right before Katrina hit, and what else?

I would love to see us ratchet down the number of Reps in the House, even if only by 100-150. I'd love for it to be 250, but I just don't see it happening at this point. Givens the staffs and such that are involved, this should actually cut a bit out, as well as getting rid of some of the noise and earmarks rolling in. Most serious cuts in the number should be CA and TX, as they currently have the most reps on the books.

Sigh... the military is going to see cuts, it's gotta happen. I mean, we've been on a war footing for more than 10 years now, so gearing down is simply inevitable. We're simply trying to do too much around the world, and we need to scale it back, along with just generally needing to go over it with some efficiency experts to pare down the sheer logistics waste that exists currently. There's always going to be bloat in the military, but we need to minimize it. If this means closing some foreign bases, it means closing some foreign bases. We're almost definitely going to have to do without raises for a time, as well.

Skip the southern border wall. We don't need it, and frankly, it can be gotten around with a boat. Aside from that, a 700 mile long wall along a 2100 mile long border just isn't gonna work. Better to make use of the lower cost drones to help direct INS in the acquisition of border jumpers, as well as target the businesses and such that hire illegals to reduce the opportunities, and thus the demand for illegals.

Scrap Obamacare. Universal Health Care is simply not financially workable at this point. What we should do to make health care more affordable are smaller measures, such as working with the insurance companies to find ways to make it cheaper for citizens to buy individual plans, limiting payout amounts in malpractice suits, as well as enforce laws against frivolous suits. We can keep the closing of the "pre-existing conditions" loophole, but pretty much, that's it.

Unsure of where to go with the cuts from here. At this point, it gets more into things like stopping pork-barrel spending, earmarks, and such that are currently crippling a ton of really good legislation that just gets buried in the stuff. Contracted spending also has to go. I'm sorry, but nothing save the bare essentials should be on the "must have" budget considerations.

Oh I remember: We should stop paying people to be Congressmen. We haven't always done so, and they're off for enough of the year to be able to earn a living outside of their duties to Congress, more now than ever before. This should also have a positive effect of getting rid of the career politicians who are infecting the system.

[Gaffer]

The EPA, a useless liberal gore run agency that does nothing but destroy our economy. They need to be on the top of the list with the IRS.

[ConHog]

The EPA, a useless liberal gore run agency that does nothing but destroy our economy. They need to be on the top of the list with the IRS.

That's insane Gaffer. The EPA needs to be pared down, just like a bunch of other federal agencies, but to say do away with them? There are many companies that would not give a shit about doing things as clean as possible if not for mandated regulations.

[revelarts]

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dept. of Education gone
Interior
Energy
HUD
Commerce
GONE

most Foriegn Aid GONE

[Gaffer]

That's insane Gaffer. The EPA needs to be pared down, just like a bunch of other federal agencies, but to say do away with them? There are many companies that would not give a shit about doing things as clean as possible if not for mandated regulations.

It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. The EPA is what is hurting our economy so much. They can literally come in and take over your farm based on cow farts and keep you tied up in court for ten years. Want to avoid all that? Make donations to the DNC. It's an extortion agency.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The EPA, a useless liberal gore run agency that does nothing but destroy our economy. They need to be on the top of the list with the IRS.

I agree with you completely . The EPA has been used as a weapon by the obama administration and should be abolished. It is a liberal ran piece of clusterfuck that has been given far too much authority!-Tyr

[ConHog]

It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. The EPA is what is hurting our economy so much. They can literally come in and take over your farm based on cow farts and keep you tied up in court for ten years. Want to avoid all that? Make donations to the DNC. It's an extortion agency.

Now THAT I agree with 100% it is no different than any other government agency, too big for their britches. But the core agency is needed IMHO.

[ConHog]

DEA, ATF, FBI, DHS,Secret Service, blah blah blah. How many fraeking federal police forces do we need? Oh , that's right ONE. The rest are just a bureaucratic mess.

[DragonStryk72]

The EPA, a useless liberal gore run agency that does nothing but destroy our economy. They need to be on the top of the list with the IRS.

I would say that it needs to be seriously restructured, much like with the IRS, and it's role reduced a bit so as not to be able to just run roughshod over the citizens, or declare places wetlands that are no where near a wetlands area.....

Thinking on it, I would rather see it get absorbed into the FBI as a division of investigators into environmental matters, as opposed to policy writers. It changes the whole dimension of the dynamic there, to truly being about protection, and not simply chest beating for the environmental lobby.

[DragonStryk72]

DEA, ATF, FBI, DHS,Secret Service, blah blah blah. How many fraeking federal police forces do we need? Oh , that's right ONE. The rest are just a bureaucratic mess.

I'd break it down to the Secret Service, which is pursuant to precisely and exactly one goal, and the FBI. Everything else of what you mention can either be done away with, or just reduced and folded into the FBI.

I believe the NSA's job should be changed, be the receptical for all the intel that they, the FBI, and CIA gather, so that we have one area where it's all going to that we can compare notes between federal departments, which is what really created the cluster fuck of 9/11, as well as the intel troubles leading up to the Iraq war. If our own agencies had only talked to each other, we'd have been fine. CIA would still focus on our exterior threats, while the FBI works the interior ones.

The huge upswing is the manner in which we deal with crime, and threats: With very clear jurisdiction lines, there's no dick-measuring contests that need to occur between the three. The NSA just gathers intel, while the CIA and FBI do the grunt work in their purviews. Simple, clean, efficient.

I would also fold the INS in there, just to round out the clean-up.

[Thunderknuckles]

What about re-structuring Social Security?

[ConHog]

I'd break it down to the Secret Service, which is pursuant to precisely and exactly one goal, and the FBI. Everything else of what you mention can either be done away with, or just reduced and folded into the FBI.

I believe the NSA's job should be changed, be the receptical for all the intel that they, the FBI, and CIA gather, so that we have one area where it's all going to that we can compare notes between federal departments, which is what really created the cluster fuck of 9/11, as well as the intel troubles leading up to the Iraq war. If our own agencies had only talked to each other, we'd have been fine. CIA would still focus on our exterior threats, while the FBI works the interior ones.

The huge upswing is the manner in which we deal with crime, and threats: With very clear jurisdiction lines, there's no dick-measuring contests that need to occur between the three. The NSA just gathers intel, while the CIA and FBI do the grunt work in their purviews. Simple, clean, efficient.

I would also fold the INS in there, just to round out the clean-up.

ICE, Customs, Coast Guard, Border Patrol to - Are you freaking kidding me? How many millions are spent every year just on office supplies for some fat ass paper pushers to justify their desk?

Like you said, we should have FBI, and CIA. Internal and External. Everything else is a department within those two organizations.

I liken it to the discussion we are having in Arkansas about schools right now. Consolidation. I live in a county of about 9K people spread over 3 cities and multiple towns. Each of those cities has a school district, each district requires a superintendent, a principal ( or 3) and half a dozen vice principles along with all of their assistants and such.

How much money could be saved if we had one school for the entire county? It's in the millions per year, just for our small county.

[ConHog]

What about re-structuring Social Security?

That program is beyond saving.

[revelarts]

From what i've read of the FBI and CIA they don't need merger they need house cleaning.
Top Down.

With Fast and furious seems the ATF needs the same.
DEA , well making MJ legal would mean you cut the DEA by 1/2 to 3/4

[ConHog]

From what i've read of the FBI and CIA they don't need merger they need house cleaning.
Top Down.

With Fast and furious seems the ATF needs the same.
DEA , well making MJ legal would mean you cut the DEA by 1/2 to 3/4

You're wrong about the DEA bro.

Unless you are talking about legalizing weight.

[Kathianne]

What about re-structuring Social Security?

I'm for phasing out SSI. Everyone over 50 should receive what promised, retirement age lifted to 68 or 70. If 35 or under, you will only get what you've put in + reasonable interest. Those in between would pay in a decreasing percentage, knowing they will only get back what they put in + reasonable interest figured over the time worked.

In general I'd like to get rid of 'departments' that do little other than write mandates for business and states. Where they're duplicate specialties that employ the same sorts of experts and require the same types of specialized tools, combine.

Get rid of Department of Ed.
Get rid of Department of Energy
Get rid of Homeland Security
Separate CIA & FBI
One department for Disability
Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid should be one department-shrinking
Department of Ag should be consolidated with the medicine approval labs of Dept. of Health & Human Services.

[ConHog]

I'm for phasing out SSI. Everyone over 50 should receive what promised, retirement age lifted to 68 or 70. If 35 or under, you will only get what you've put in + reasonable interest. Those in between would pay in a decreasing percentage, knowing they will only get back what they put in + reasonable interest figured over the time worked.

In general I'd like to get rid of 'departments' that do little other than write mandates for business and states. Where they're duplicate specialties that employ the same sorts of experts and require the same types of specialized tools, combine.

Get rid of Department of Ed.
Get rid of Department of Energy
Get rid of Homeland Security
Separate CIA & FBI
One department for Disability
Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid should be one department-shrinking
Department of Ag should be consolidated with the medicine approval labs of Dept. of Health & Human Services.


Once again we agree; especially re: social security. Really that's what it's going to come down to. At some point the gov't is going to have to say "sorry you don't get SS" to someone.

[Kathianne]

Once again we agree; especially re: social security. Really that's what it's going to come down to. At some point the gov't is going to have to say "sorry you don't get SS" to someone.

No one should not receive back what they paid in, plus reasonable interest. Otherwise the government is outright stealing from the young. I would suggest an average interest rate based upon the years that the younger people worked. For instance, when a 35 year old started paying in, say at 16, count every years avg interest rate and go with that.

There is no doubt that younger people will have to pay in for X number of years, but they must see a decrease year-to-year. They must be guaranteed they will get all of their money back, plus interest. There should also be incentives tax-wise for setting up their own pension plans. The key to the mess is giving them 30+ working years of knowing they won't be getting SSI as it now is.

[ConHog]

No one should not receive back what they paid in, plus reasonable interest. Otherwise the government is outright stealing from the young. I would suggest an average interest rate based upon the years that the younger people worked. For instance, when a 35 year old started paying in, say at 16, count every years avg interest rate and go with that.

There is no doubt that younger people will have to pay in for X number of years, but they must see a decrease year-to-year. They must be guaranteed they will get all of their money back, plus interest. There should also be incentives tax-wise for setting up their own pension plans. The key to the mess is giving them 30+ working years of knowing they won't be getting SSI as it now is.

Oh, let me back up, I meant they must tell someone they can't get SS, but that also means they shouldn't be paying in.

[revelarts]

I'm for phasing out SSI. Everyone over 50 should receive what promised, retirement age lifted to 68 or 70. If 35 or under, you will only get what you've put in + reasonable interest. Those in between would pay in a decreasing percentage, knowing they will only get back what they put in + reasonable interest figured over the time worked.

In general I'd like to get rid of 'departments' that do little other than write mandates for business and states. Where they're duplicate specialties that employ the same sorts of experts and require the same types of specialized tools, combine.

Get rid of Department of Ed.
Get rid of Department of Energy
Get rid of Homeland Security (heck Yeah!)
Separate CIA & FBI
One department for Disability
Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid should be one department-shrinking

I'm with u here, very nice.




Department of Ag should be consolidated with the medicine approval labs of Dept. of Health & Human Services.

I'm not with you here.

I think the Dept of Ag, HHS and the FDA need re-purposing. From less regulatory to more oversite, informational, research, testing, and regulate labeling but not ban content. BUt Be HARSH on honest labeling.
Grass feed better be grass feed. GMO's labelled, medicines patent protected but ingredients publicly known.
the gov't should NOT be our mammas but our friend. if some wants to use a experimental drug or beet roots it's on them but the label and history better be clear.

[Kathianne]

I'm with u here, very nice.




I'm not with you here.

I think the Dept of Ag, HHS and the FDA need re-purposing. From less regulatory to more oversite, informational, research, testing, and regulate labeling but not ban content. BUt Be HARSH on honest labeling.
Grass feed better be grass feed. GMO's labelled, medicines patent protected but ingredients publicly known.
the gov't should NOT be our mammas but our friend. if some wants to use a experimental drug or beet roots it's on them but the label and history better be clear.

When government labs, science computers, etc., have purpose and prevent major problems, to my way of thinking they should be housed and staffed by as streamlined a staff as is possible, given the nature of government.

I think the FDA is fat and sloppy, however very necessary for testing food and drugs. The CDC is the 'go to place' for identifying and addressing breakouts of both diseases and possible terror attacks. The two departments employ many of the same specialists, equipment, etc. Combining would result in some cuts in numbers, but would leave more money for modernization on fronts they both use.

[DragonStryk72]

What about re-structuring Social Security?

Oh sweet JESUS, yes. Now, there are points where we are doing both not enough, and too much. SS is so fucked up, there's no real way to even talk about cutting it, because we do, in fact, need it to an extent.

SS really breaks down into some key areas, we'll start with Welfare, since that's a huge mess right there. First off, no form of SS should be permanent, we just can't have it, nor can we have it be made de facto permanent with infinite extensions. One, the mere act of choosing to stay home as a single mom should not qualify you for welfare. Being a mom is not a disability, you had a baby, not cancer. There should be some work in trade for the money. I'm not beyond helping people out, I get it. Times are tough, but couldn't the state and local government use some extra hands for project like beautification, or putting in a new playground? Hell, licking envelopes, just something that shows they respect the investment it's being given.

It's also just something where Welfare promotes exactly the temperament that its supposed to discourage. A lot of people get on welfare with a false sense of security from it, figuring they'll get off it quickly enough, and move on. They're told they've got to report to a seminar for job training, but it isn't actual training, it's a bank of computers you can apply to stuff online from. Meanwhile, you have to be careful about what jobs you take, because if you pick up a quick McJob, you could screw yourself over horribly, because if one week it makes a decent wage, depending where you're at, you can get your welfare reduced beyond the capacity of the job to replace it, or even lose it entirely, all while still living below the poverty line, or getting literally no hours the very next week. Just saying, a clear consistent message would be a good start.

Unemployment.... There's bad on both sides here, too. A number of companies in NY have taken to giving employees one day of work every other week in order to not have to pay out unemployment, since you have to be out of work for at least two consecutive weeks in order to qualify for unemployment. So your company can directly screw you over, and cripple you financially to their heart's content just to avoid having to give you any money at all. Then they keep it going long enough, that your income on the books isn't enough to qualify for Unemployment when they do stop giving you hours. With that said, the other end of the abuse has to go away as well, with people purposely tanking interviews, and poorly filling out their applications in order to skirt the requirements, and then just filing for extension after extension.

Food Stamps/WIC- Quit fucking around with it! Make it a simple, straightforward process, and step away! And this new kick they're on where they're trying to make people eat health food can go die in a fire. Seriously, they're not going to increase the food stamps, but at the same time, they're forcing people to pay more for less food. Oh sure, that's not gonna fuck anyone over. Now, on the other side of the fence, there are people up here who are using their EBT cards to fund parties by getting their full allotment of food, and then throwing a huge party at $10 bucks a head, using the Food stamps as an end around way to create a small income for themselves.

[revelarts]

Wasn't Social security suppose to be in a LOCK BOX?

[Kathianne]

Oh sweet JESUS, yes. Now, there are points where we are doing both not enough, and too much. SS is so fucked up, there's no real way to even talk about cutting it, because we do, in fact, need it to an extent.

SS really breaks down into some key areas, we'll start with Welfare, since that's a huge mess right there. First off, no form of SS should be permanent, we just can't have it, nor can we have it be made de facto permanent with infinite extensions. One, the mere act of choosing to stay home as a single mom should not qualify you for welfare. Being a mom is not a disability, you had a baby, not cancer. There should be some work in trade for the money. I'm not beyond helping people out, I get it. Times are tough, but couldn't the state and local government use some extra hands for project like beautification, or putting in a new playground? Hell, licking envelopes, just something that shows they respect the investment it's being given.

It's also just something where Welfare promotes exactly the temperament that its supposed to discourage. A lot of people get on welfare with a false sense of security from it, figuring they'll get off it quickly enough, and move on. They're told they've got to report to a seminar for job training, but it isn't actual training, it's a bank of computers you can apply to stuff online from. Meanwhile, you have to be careful about what jobs you take, because if you pick up a quick McJob, you could screw yourself over horribly, because if one week it makes a decent wage, depending where you're at, you can get your welfare reduced beyond the capacity of the job to replace it, or even lose it entirely, all while still living below the poverty line, or getting literally no hours the very next week. Just saying, a clear consistent message would be a good start.

Unemployment.... There's bad on both sides here, too. A number of companies in NY have taken to giving employees one day of work every other week in order to not have to pay out unemployment, since you have to be out of work for at least two consecutive weeks in order to qualify for unemployment. So your company can directly screw you over, and cripple you financially to their heart's content just to avoid having to give you any money at all. Then they keep it going long enough, that your income on the books isn't enough to qualify for Unemployment when they do stop giving you hours. With that said, the other end of the abuse has to go away as well, with people purposely tanking interviews, and poorly filling out their applications in order to skirt the requirements, and then just filing for extension after extension.

Food Stamps/WIC- Quit fucking around with it! Make it a simple, straightforward process, and step away! And this new kick they're on where they're trying to make people eat health food can go die in a fire. Seriously, they're not going to increase the food stamps, but at the same time, they're forcing people to pay more for less food. Oh sure, that's not gonna fuck anyone over. Now, on the other side of the fence, there are people up here who are using their EBT cards to fund parties by getting their full allotment of food, and then throwing a huge party at $10 bucks a head, using the Food stamps as an end around way to create a small income for themselves.

I don't believe you are addressing SSI, rather entitlements as a whole.

[Kathianne]

Wasn't Social security suppose to be in a LOCK BOX?

You can bet your sweet bippy that if some form of my idea were actually enacted, they'd have to find a lock box with a lock like the launch missile codes.

[DragonStryk72]

I don't believe you are addressing SSI, rather entitlements as a whole.

Unfortunately, they've been entangled so much so now that they're hard to separate out. Social Security covers all of the entitlements I mentioned above, although Unemployment can also be found under the heading of the Dept. of Labor. Fuck, I'm probably missing a few that have come under the umbrella of social security.

SS itself was never meant to be a permanent institution, being a temporary assistance measure back in the 30s. I think we're ever so slightly past the Great Depression by this point, don't you?

[Kathianne]

Oh, let me back up, I meant they must tell someone they can't get SS, but that also means they shouldn't be paying in.

Ah, but since that 'lock box' was just a myth, they will have to pay in and they also need to get back what they lent.

[Kathianne]

Unfortunately, they've been entangled so much so now that they're hard to separate out. Social Security covers all of the entitlements I mentioned above, although Unemployment can also be found under the heading of the Dept. of Labor. Fuck, I'm probably missing a few that have come under the umbrella of social security.

SS itself was never meant to be a permanent institution, being a temporary assistance measure back in the 30s. I think we're ever so slightly past the Great Depression by this point, don't you?

Seriously, I didn't know this. I did some quick searches and to a credible degree, you're correct. Unconscionable.

SSI was to help those few folks that lived beyond the average back when. Now if someone 65 dies, folks are beyond shocked! Something wrong with that aspect.

I guess we know why there isn't any money to fund SSI, too many recipients, many of whom are 0-64. I thought it wrong when the mentally retarded and such were covered under SSI; mind you, I've no problem with taxes helping the helpless, just thought that SSI was not the way to do it.

[fj1200]

What about re-structuring Social Security?

Medicare is worse when looking at unfunded mandates.

[ConHog]

Seriously, I didn't know this. I did some quick searches and to a credible degree, you're correct. Unconscionable.

SSI was to help those few folks that lived beyond the average back when. Now if someone 65 dies, folks are beyond shocked! Something wrong with that aspect.

I guess we know why there isn't any money to fund SSI, too many recipients, many of whom are 0-64. I thought it wrong when the mentally retarded and such were covered under SSI; mind you, I've no problem with taxes helping the helpless, just thought that SSI was not the way to do it.

SSI is a frickin joke. My daughter has SLIGHT "autism" , I use that term lightly, she basically has trouble associating with society, but her specialists expects that by age 12 she'll be functioning as a normal preteen in that area. BUT she qualifies for SSI. I would never take it because , well how embarrassing, but most have no shame.

If someone truly can't function in life, and their family doesn't have the resources, I have no problem with a portion of my tax money going to assist them; but god damn the abuse makes me sick.

Which is I think what we were are all essentially saying (except perhaps Rev) let's do away with the waste, cut the fat, and help those who REALLY need help.

[Kathianne]

SSI is a frickin joke. My daughter has SLIGHT "autism" , I use that term lightly, she basically has trouble associating with society, but her specialists expects that by age 12 she'll be functioning as a normal preteen in that area. BUT she qualifies for SSI. I would never take it because , well how embarrassing, but most have no shame.

If someone truly can't function in life, and their family doesn't have the resources, I have no problem with a portion of my tax money going to assist them; but god damn the abuse makes me sick.

Which is I think what we were are all essentially saying (except perhaps Rev) let's do away with the waste, cut the fat, and help those who REALLY need help.

I'm for helping medically or mentally challenged adults or children, but think the funding should be clear. For instance, I don't like that the states and local education districts are mandated to provide day care, under the guise of education for ineducable persons and then hit with 'less than acceptable performance on standardized testing.

[gabosaurus]

How far can you carve an apple before there is no more apple?
Like it or not, you eventually have to either repair it or buy a new one.
Anyone who wants to dismantle EPA needs to visit Mexico City. Or Shanghai.
I say we need to dismantle "Homeland Security" and fold it in to the Defense Department. Which by itself needs to be cut by 30 percent.

[fj1200]

Anyone who wants to dismantle EPA needs to visit Mexico City. Or Shanghai.

Yes, because that's always the likely result. :rolleyes:

[gabosaurus]

It IS a likely result. Go to South America. They have been removing "small parts" of trees from rain forests for many years. Now look at it.

But don't mind me. I enjoy laughing at pompous tools of business interests. (You see, I can still be liberal at times!)

[ConHog]

I'm for helping medically or mentally challenged adults or children, but think the funding should be clear. For instance, I don't like that the states and local education districts are mandated to provide day care, under the guise of education for ineducable persons and then hit with 'less than acceptable performance on standardized testing.

well, you know how I feel about schools being forced to accept every handicapped child, no matter how bad off they are.

It's stupid to force a school district to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or more a year on a child who obviously is beyond learning. Just provide those parents with the equivelant funds of a regular education to put towards caring for their child.

IOW our school (high school) spends $10,457 per child (that's total expenditures including salaries) per year. Give those parents a check for that amount and that is the end of the school's responsibility towards that child.

[fj1200]

It IS a likely result. Go to South America. They have been removing "small parts" of trees from rain forests for many years. Now look at it.

But don't mind me. I enjoy laughing at pompous tools of business interests. (You see, I can still be liberal at times!)

I thought I only needed to look at Mexico City and Shanghai, now South America? Let me know though when "dismantling the EPA" is on the horizon.

[ConHog]

I thought I only needed to look at Mexico City and Shanghai, now South America? Let me know though when "dismantling the EPA" is on the horizon.


Too true, not much chance of Rev getting his way here.

[Kathianne]

well, you know how I feel about schools being forced to accept every handicapped child, no matter how bad off they are.

It's stupid to force a school district to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or more a year on a child who obviously is beyond learning. Just provide those parents with the equivelant funds of a regular education to put towards caring for their child.

IOW our school (high school) spends $10,457 per child (that's total expenditures including salaries) per year. Give those parents a check for that amount and that is the end of the school's responsibility towards that child.

These kids do not belong on the country/diocese/whatever school gov't funding there is. They belong on disability of one sort or another.

It's criminal that every school day they are bussed, no matter their condition. Oh they may well have an RN on the bus. That such is necessary medically says volumes about the inappropriateness of school setting.

[ConHog]

These kids do not belong on the country/diocese/whatever school gov't funding there is. They belong on disability of one sort or another.

It's criminal that every school day they are bussed, no matter their condition. Oh they may well have an RN on the bus. That such is necessary medically says volumes about the inappropriateness of school setting.

Agreed 100% , but in every case the parents are at fault. I mean on the one hand I can't fault any parent for wanting their child to have as normal a childhood as possible given whatever condition they have; but on the other hand, come on............... AND I've personally seen and heard stories where a parent doesn't give a shit if they break a school as long as they get what they want.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. The EPA is what is hurting our economy so much. They can literally come in and take over your farm based on cow farts and keep you tied up in court for ten years. Want to avoid all that? Make donations to the DNC. It's an extortion agency.

Obama has pretty much used every agency in the Federal government to attack and hit those he deems to be his enemies. Many of those agencies have had far too much power far too long. Those are the ones that should be totally abolished! With most of them not being replaced!-Tyr

[DragonStryk72]

Seriously, I didn't know this. I did some quick searches and to a credible degree, you're correct. Unconscionable.

SSI was to help those few folks that lived beyond the average back when. Now if someone 65 dies, folks are beyond shocked! Something wrong with that aspect.

I guess we know why there isn't any money to fund SSI, too many recipients, many of whom are 0-64. I thought it wrong when the mentally retarded and such were covered under SSI; mind you, I've no problem with taxes helping the helpless, just thought that SSI was not the way to do it.

All of SSI was born out of an intention to do good. I'm sort of reminded of The Lord of the Rings, where Frodo tries to give the Ring to Gandalf, "Don't... tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand, Frodo. I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."

We are killing ourselves with our own good natures. I get that we want to help people, and that it comes from a genuinely good place within ourselves, but the difference between intent and result is vast. Just today I found this article on my brother's facebook:


Riverside County, California To Charge Prisoners $142 Per Day Of Their Stay
In one southern California county, prisoners will soon have to pay for the privilege of staying in jail.


Riverside County, California will start charging prisoners $142.42 per day of their prison stay (http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/09/news/economy/california_jail/index.htm?iid=HP_River), CNNMoney reports. The county's board of supervisors approved the measure on Tuesday as a way to save an estimated $3 to $5 million per year. Not every prisoner will be forced to pay up, however. The county will review each prisoner's case individually to determine if they can afford the fee.


The fee comes as the California correctional system continues to struggle with budget woes. Last month, in an effort to save money, the state transferred responsibility for lower-level drug offenders, thieves and other convicts to counties. The "prison realignment" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/california-prison-populat_n_989015.html) is one of many measures the state has taken in recent years to close its budget gap. The California Supreme Court is considering this week whether the state broke the law when it used re-development funds (http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/11/08/california-budget-fight-goes-to-state-supreme-court/) to close a shortfall a few years ago, according to the Wall Street Journal.


But at some prisons, there still may be room for cost cuts. A California prison nurse was paid a salary of $269,810 in 2010 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/27/jean-keller-prison-nurse-nets-270000-overtime-pay_n_1035372.html) after working thousands of hours in overtime. Indeed, the five highest-paid California state employees all work in the prison system (http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/07/highest-paid_california_state_employees_prison_system.php) , according to LA Weekly.
California isn't the only state coping with cuts to its budget and prison system. Jefferson County, Alabama filed for the biggest municipal bankruptcy in U.S. history (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/alabama-bankruptcy-county-municipal_n_1084940.html?ref=business) Wednesday after amassing massive debt and contending with a huge budget shortfall.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/10/riverside-county-california-prisons_n_1085983.html

Now, I don't usually quote anything from huffpost, but this one wasn't an op-ed, and was actually fact-based, without judgment. When we are literally running out of money to keep the prisons going, something's just fucking wrong, and this isn't limited to just CA, it's just further along than the other states.

The best thing we can do for the world, in truth, is to stabilize our own economy, and become the anchor for China, beginning the cascade effect for other countries around the globe. We have the strongest economy in the world when we're stable, and we can use that to the advantage of all if we can just focus

[DragonStryk72]

How far can you carve an tumor before there is no more tumor?
Like it or not, you eventually have to either repair it or buy a new one.
Anyone who wants to dismantle EPA needs to visit Mexico City. Or Shanghai.
I say we need to dismantle "Homeland Security" and fold it in to the Defense Department. Which by itself needs to be cut by 30 percent.

No one is saying to dismantle it entirely, and if you'd read, I even included the Military and DHS in the cuts. Everyone needs to give things up, and in my instance, I put in for folding the EPA into the FBI, removing them from the loop of politicians who are abusing the EPA as it stands, on both sides.

[ConHog]

No one is saying to dismantle it entirely, and if you'd read, I even included the Military and DHS in the cuts. Everyone needs to give things up, and in my instance, I put in for folding the EPA into the FBI, removing them from the loop of politicians who are abusing the EPA as it stands, on both sides.

That is why nothing will ever change DS. Every politician , and voter it seems, has their own pet agencies they don't want any cuts . So NO ONE gets cuts.

[avatar4321]

I dont have specific programs. I instead have guidelines:

1) Is it Constitutional? - If yes go to the next question. If no, cut it.
2) Is it necessary? - If yes, go to the next question. If no, cut it.
3) Does it need to be administered to at the Federal level or can the State/local governments provide the programs better? If it's vital for the Feds to do it, then do it. If the States can do it better, then let the States pass their own legislation.


Do those three things, and the Federal Government will be alot smaller. Heck, just doing the first filter would help significantly.

[Kathianne]

No one is saying to dismantle it entirely, and if you'd read, I even included the Military and DHS in the cuts. Everyone needs to give things up, and in my instance, I put in for folding the EPA into the FBI, removing them from the loop of politician who are abusing the EPA as it stands, on both sides.
What a nonsensical answer. EPA into FBI. Two agencies working with no common thread. Good God!

EPA should be shrunk, teeth taken away. leave the scientists to point the way to enforcement, be it FBI, local cops, etc.

[ConHog]

What a nonsensical answer. EPA into FBI. Two agencies working with no common thread. Good God!

EPA should be shrunk, teeth taken away. leave the scientists to point the way to enforcement, be it FBI, local cops, etc.

I THINK he was referring to the investigative arm of the EPA Kath. And I agree. Why can't the FBI have an Environment desk manned with FBI agents who investigate law breakers? Why does the FBI have their own agents?

Same same with DEA, why can't the FBI have agents assigned to drugs?

Same with INS,ATF, etc etc.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I dont have specific programs. I instead have guidelines:

1) Is it Constitutional? - If yes go to the next question. If no, cut it.
2) Is it necessary? - If yes, go to the next question. If no, cut it.
3) Does it need to be administered to at the Federal level or can the State/local governments provide the programs better? If it's vital for the Feds to do it, then do it. If the States can do it better, then let the States pass their own legislation.


Do those three things, and the Federal Government will be alot smaller. Heck, just doing the first filter would help significantly.

Actually number one would take care of a lot of the problem we currently have with big government!
I'd be happy if just that one was applied !--Tyr

[ConHog]

I dont have specific programs. I instead have guidelines:

1) Is it Constitutional? - If yes go to the next question. If no, cut it.
2) Is it necessary? - If yes, go to the next question. If no, cut it.
3) Does it need to be administered to at the Federal level or can the State/local governments provide the programs better? If it's vital for the Feds to do it, then do it. If the States can do it better, then let the States pass their own legislation.


Do those three things, and the Federal Government will be alot smaller. Heck, just doing the first filter would help significantly.

The first filter alone wouldn't change much. I mean as you know lawyers can find ways to make almost anything constitutional, and heck a lot f the agencies even do a lot of good to; but damn when there is NO accountability, that is what causes so many problems.

[Kathianne]

All of SSI was born out of an intention to do good. I'm sort of reminded of The Lord of the Rings, where Frodo tries to give the Ring to Gandalf, "Don't... tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand, Frodo. I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."

We are killing ourselves with our own good natures. I get that we want to help people, and that it comes from a genuinely good place within ourselves, but the difference between intent and result is vast. Just today I found this article on my brother's facebook:



Now, I don't usually quote anything from huffpost, but this one wasn't an op-ed, and was actually fact-based, without judgment. When we are literally running out of money to keep the prisons going, something's just fucking wrong, and this isn't limited to just CA, it's just further along than the other states.

The best thing we can do for the world, in truth, is to stabilize our own economy, and become the anchor for China, beginning the cascade effect for other countries around the globe. We have the strongest economy in the world when we're stable, and we can use that to the advantage of all if we can just focus

The best way to stabilize our economy is to stop spending money we don't have. The largest contingent of money we don't have, is found in entitlements. They need to be eliminated where possible and drastically cut where elimination is impossible.

[ConHog]

The best way to stabilize our economy is to stop spending money we don't have. The largest contingent of money we don't have, is found in entitlements. They need to be eliminated where possible and drastically cut where elimination is impossible.

I don't think that's true .

3503

Even assuming things have changed since 2009 (year of my graph) they haven't changed THAT drastically.

[DragonStryk72]

What a nonsensical answer. EPA into FBI. Two agencies working with no common thread. Good God!

EPA should be shrunk, teeth taken away. leave the scientists to point the way to enforcement, be it FBI, local cops, etc.

Yes, and that's actually part of it, taking away their abilities to determine policy, and leave them as a special investigative unit for the FBI. This way, they just aid in the enforcement, and do not to determine policy. By folding it into the FBI, it deal only with Federal level issues, otherwise leaving things to the local ordinances.

[Kathianne]

I don't think that's true .

3503

Even assuming things have changed since 2009 (year of my graph) they haven't changed THAT drastically.

From a government website:

Add SSI and other programs, what do you find? Defense? Seems your site leaves something to be desired.

http://www.irs.gov/app/understandingTaxes/whys/thm01/les01/ac3_thm01_les01.jsp


http://www.irs.gov/app/understandingTaxes/whys/thm01/les01/media/ac3_thm01_les01.jpg

[DragonStryk72]

I don't think that's true .

3503

Even assuming things have changed since 2009 (year of my graph) they haven't changed THAT drastically.

Yeah, a good portion of that, though, will drop off when we finish getting the troops out of the ME, assuming we stay on track with that. Those wars are really costing us, and then of course, you have the fact that "National Defense" is such a broad heading. We really need a blow by blow of where that money is going. I know we have to pay our troops, but methinks there is where we will locate a ton of waste. I don't think know why I would think that, given I have no military experience or anything, but it seems like the military might be overdoing it just a bit.

[ConHog]

From a government website:

Add SSI and other programs, what do you find? Defense? Seems your site leaves something to be desired.

http://www.irs.gov/app/understandingTaxes/whys/thm01/les01/ac3_thm01_les01.jsp


http://www.irs.gov/app/understandingTaxes/whys/thm01/les01/media/ac3_thm01_les01.jpg

That's two WIDELY disparate graphs. I'll have to do more reading.

[Kathianne]

That's two WIDELY disparate graphs. I'll have to do more reading.

Do you mean your graph source of National Priorities Projects vs mine of IRS? Yeah, some difference.

[ConHog]

Do you mean your graph source of National Priorities Projects vs mine of IRS? Yeah, some difference.

Not to go all Rev on you, but forgive me for not taking the government's word.

[fj1200]

Not to go all Rev on you, but forgive me for not taking the government's word.

You only posted the discretionary budget. That doesn't include the entitlements that have been predetermined by previous legislation.

[ConHog]

You only posted the discretionary budget. That doesn't include the entitlements that have been predetermined by previous legislation.

Ah, I missed that.

Kath , I profusely apologize for making an error. I know an apology will confuse you, but it can't be helped.

[avatar4321]

The first filter alone wouldn't change much. I mean as you know lawyers can find ways to make almost anything constitutional, and heck a lot f the agencies even do a lot of good to; but damn when there is NO accountability, that is what causes so many problems.

It would make significant chnges if we were an honest people. So lets work at making ourselves honest.

[ConHog]

It would make significant chnges if we were an honest people. So lets work at making ourselves honest.

Sadly, I believe the days of having honest politicians are in our rear view mirror Avatar.

[Kathianne]

Sadly, I believe the days of having honest politicians are in our rear view mirror Avatar.

Same with mb posters, as evidenced on this thread.

[ConHog]

Same with mb posters, as evidenced on this thread.


Are you admitting to being dishonest?

[Kathianne]

Are you admitting to being dishonest?

Are you crazed?

[Kathianne]

That's two WIDELY disparate graphs. I'll have to do more reading.
Waiting. I wouldn't normally post this quick, but since CH seems to have lots of time to reply to other posts, just saying.

[SassyLady]

I have previously stated that The National Institute of Health needs major overhaul. I wonder how much money would be saved if there were no grants for sexual dysfunctional studies?