Public-employee pensions face a rollback in California

[Shadow]

SAN DIEGO – For years, companies have been chipping away at workers' pensions. Now, two California cities may help pave the way for governments to follow suit.
Voters in San Diego and San Jose, the nation's eighth- and 10th-largest cities, overwhelmingly approved ballot measures last week to roll back municipal retirement benefits -- and not just for future hires but for current employees.
From coast to coast, the pensions of current public employees have long been generally considered untouchable. But now, some politicians are saying those obligations are trumped by the need to provide for the public's health and safety.
The two California cases could put that argument to the test in a legal battle that could resonate in cash-strapped state capitols and city halls across the country. Lawsuits have already been filed in both cities.
"Other states are going to have to pay attention," said Amy Monahan, a law professor at University of Minnesota.
The court battles are playing out as lawmakers across the U.S. grapple with ballooning pension obligations that increasingly threaten schools, police, health clinics and other basic services.
State and local governments may have $3 trillion in unfunded pension liabilities, and seven states and six large cities will be unable to cover their obligations beyond 2020, Northwestern University finance professor Joshua Rauh estimated last year.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/09/public-employee-pensions-face-rollback-in-california/#ixzz1xOenw56I

[Kathianne]

Indeed. This was the message sent across the country with the Walker recall. In Illinois, we're probably in worse shape than CA, yet so far, no politicians are shining any lights anywhere. Here's one on the TRS:

http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x1440921815/TRS-director-Retirees-might-have-to-take-COLA-cut


The Illinois Teachers Retirement System (http://trs.illinois.gov/)could be insolvent as soon as 2029, leading executive director Dick Ingram to raise the politically explosive possibility of reducing pension benefits for already retired teachers.
In a confidential memo, obtained by The State Journal-Register, Ingram said the state’s largest pension system, which has been underfunded for decades, can no longer be confident that state government will continue to pay it enough money to allow the system to keep treading water. The memo was sent to the TRS board Feb. 9.


The triple threat of the state’s unpaid bills, skyrocketing Medicaid costs and $85 billion in overall unfunded pension liability could crowd out pension funding, the amount of which is scheduled to continue to rise, Ingram wrote.


The state owes TRS $43 billion, an amount that will not change even if benefits for working and future teachers are reduced.


‘No reasonable plan’



“This painful collision between what is fair and what is real is the outcome of the fact that the unfunded liability has grown to such a level that no one has been able to determine a reasonable plan or expectation to pay down this amount,” Ingram wrote. “If that is the case, the only other option available that would significantly change the amount owed is to reduce past service costs for active members and retirees.”...



Moves like WI or what CA might face will never be popular, but the sooner done, the sooner people can start rebuilding.

[Shadow]

Indeed. This was the message sent across the country with the Walker recall. In Illinois, we're probably in worse shape than CA, yet so far, no politicians are shining any lights anywhere. Here's one on the TRS:

http://www.sj-r.com/top-stories/x1440921815/TRS-director-Retirees-might-have-to-take-COLA-cut



Moves like WI or what CA might face will never be popular, but the sooner done, the sooner people can start rebuilding.

Yeah...we will probably see a lot more of this soon...I agree. I was reading an article that said that NM's state pension plans would run out of money in aprox 13 years (and that was two years ago). Here in NM they have been cracking down on the double dipping... first of the state workers, and then more recently the teachers (it did NOT go over too well with these groups...as you can imagine). But the state was and is being bled dry. People retiring...taking huge pay outs...then getting rehired at a higher salary.

[Dilloduck]

how about politicians?

[ConHog]

how about politicians?

Nope, off limits


Seriousky how much money would be saved if oh i dont know say a senator couldnt serve 1 term and collect a full peneion? Or what about the congressmen who becomes a senator and then collects two pensions?

Of course as long as they vote dor their own salaries .....

[Dilloduck]

Nope, off limits


Seriousky how much money would be saved if oh i dont know say a senator couldnt serve 1 term and collect a full peneion? Or what about the congressmen who becomes a senator and then collects two pensions?

Of course as long as they vote dor their own salaries .....

To say nothing of all the other bennies

[ConHog]

To say nothing of all the other bennies

No shit. Id love to see a brewkdown of what the average senator gets in return for (poor) services

[Dilloduck]

Win one election and be set for life . What kind of shit is that ?

[ConHog]

Win one election and be set for life . What kind of shit is that ?

For years ive said that there is something wrong with a system when people are spending tens of millions of dollars to win a job that oays a cohple hundree thousand a year.

There is no telling how much they are really making if we included benefits alongside salary and under the table gifts from lobbyists

[Dilloduck]

I have secret proof of this but I can't tell anyone.

[ConHog]

I have secret proof of this but I can't tell anyone.

Is that proof wrapped inside obamas kenyan birth certificate next to the secret memo where FDR ORDERED 3000 Americans to sacrifice their lives to start a war?

:rofl:

[Shadow]

I have secret proof of this but I can't tell anyone.


What else is new? :rolleyes:

[ConHog]

What else is new? :rolleyes:

Why do people say "what else is new" when they clearly mean "thats nothing new?"

Its right up there with "i could care less" when they clearly mean "i could NOT care less"

Pardon my mini modding. Carry on

[Shadow]

Why do people say "what else is new" when they clearly mean "thats nothing new?"

Its right up there with "i could care less" when they clearly mean "i could NOT care less"

Pardon my mini modding. Carry on

Because they can...duh...:rolleyes:

[ConHog]

Because they can...duh...:rolleyes:

I acknowledge that the unwashed masses have the right to be wrong

[Shadow]

I acknowledge that the unwashed masses have the right to be wrong

Good...now go wash up. :thumb:

[ConHog]

Good...now go wash up. :thumb:

Are u offering to scrub my back?

[Shadow]

Are u offering to scrub my back?

Depends? Do you like it rough? :slap:

[ConHog]

Depends? Do you like it rough? :slap:

Dillo told me all about how rough you like it :lol:

[Dilloduck]

I was gonna give her a clue but her box is full...hmmmm :laugh2:

[Shadow]

Dillo told me all about how rough you like it :lol:

Are you sure it wasn't LogRoller? He has a pumice stone I can borrow.

[Kathianne]

Yeah...we will probably see a lot more of this soon...I agree. I was reading an article that said that NM's state pension plans would run out of money in aprox 13 years (and that was two years ago). Here in NM they have been cracking down on the double dipping... first of the state workers, and then more recently the teachers (it did NOT go over too well with these groups...as you can imagine). But the state was and is being bled dry. People retiring...taking huge pay outs...then getting rehired at a higher salary.

Double dipping in IL is practically an art form:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-pensions-teacher-perk-20111023,0,6972290,full.story


2 teachers union lobbyists teach for a day to qualify for hefty pensions State legislature opened a small window that they climbed through in 2007
SPRINGFIELD ——
Two lobbyists with no prior teaching experience were allowed to count their years as union employees toward a state teacher pension once they served a single day of subbing in 2007, a Tribune/WGN-TV investigation has found.

Steven Preckwinkle, the political director for the Illinois Federation of Teachers, and fellow union lobbyist David Piccioli were the only people who took advantage of a small window opened by lawmakers a few months earlier.

The legislation enabled union officials to get into the state teachers pension fund and count their previous years as union employees after quickly obtaining teaching certificates and working in a classroom. They just had to do it before the bill was signed into law.

Preckwinkle's one day of subbing qualified him to become a participant in the state teachers pension fund, allowing him to pick up 16 years of previous union work and nearly five more years since he joined. He's 59, and at age 60 he'll be eligible for a state pension based on the four-highest consecutive years of his last 10 years of work.

His paycheck fluctuates as a union lobbyist, but pension records show his earnings in the last school year were at least $245,000. Based on his salary history so far, he could earn a pension of about $108,000 a year, more than double what the average teacher receives.

His pay for one day as a substitute was $93, according to records of the Illinois Teachers Retirement System.

Over the course of their lifetimes, both men stand to receive more than a million dollars each from a state pension fund that has less than half of the assets it needs to cover promises made to tens of thousands of public school teachers. With billions of dollars in unfunded liabilities, the Illinois Teachers' Retirement System, which serves public school teachers outside of Chicago (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/us/illinois/cook-county/chicago-PLGEO0100100501250000.topic), is one of several pension plans that are in debt as state government reels in a fiscal crisis...



http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/02/08/some-university-employees-double-dipping-for-state-paychecks/


Some University Employees Double Dipping For State Paychecks February 8, 2012 10:00 PM
CHICAGO (CBS) – Some public university employees have figured out a way to keep their jobs and double their salaries.


CBS 2′s Dave Savini has been investigating this lucrative, yet legal, sweetheart deal involving government pensions.


One beneficiary of this pension law is Mark Wilcockson, a Northeastern Illinois University finance director. Last summer, he retired from the university, started collecting his pension then, two months later, was hired back to do the same job.


“It’s a benefit I earned after 38 years working in the system,” said Wilcockson about his pension.


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He returned to the job at a lower salary: $123,000.


However, add in his $101,312 annual pension and his income grew to $224,312.16, a 33% increase in cash.


“I’m sure you’re here because of my salary, my range, because it happens to lots of other people,” said Wilcockson. “There’s faculty. There’s people in the mail room that do this kind of thing.”


He’s right and, again, it is all perfectly legal...

[ConHog]

Double dipping in IL is practically an art form:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-pensions-teacher-perk-20111023,0,6972290,full.story



http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/02/08/some-university-employees-double-dipping-for-state-paychecks/

That's disgusting, but it happens. When I retired from the Guard , I was offered a position with the drug task force I had been working with, actually would have paid more than my Guard pay was, and of course I could have still collected my retirement, I confess that I chose not to b/c I actually wanted to retire, not because I felt it wrong to take the money.

[gabosaurus]

Why only public employee pensions? Why not other pensions, like those of the military?
If you pay into a pension account for a number of years, shouldn't you be able to get it back?

[ConHog]

Why only public employee pensions? Why not other pensions, like those of the military?
If you pay into a pension account for a number of years, shouldn't you be able to get it back?


The military qualifies as a public employee.

And quite right, the military should not allow people to retire, start collecting their pension than reenlist.
Oh wait, they don't.

[gabosaurus]

I am not talking about double dipping. Which should not be allowed. I am talking about people who work for 30-40 years or so and then expect to be able to retire.
There are some silver spoon a-holes who want the retirement age pushed back to 80.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-03/aig-chief-sees-retirement-age-as-high-as-80-after-crisis.html

[Kathianne]

I am not talking about double dipping. Which should not be allowed. I am talking about people who work for 30-40 years or so and then expect to be able to retire.
There are some silver spoon a-holes who want the retirement age pushed back to 80.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-03/aig-chief-sees-retirement-age-as-high-as-80-after-crisis.html

There's reasons for those calls, citing stats. You're not going to like my link, with a reference to Glenn Beck, but it is what it is:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/mar/08/glenn-beck/Glenn-Beck-Social-Security-life-expectancy/


Glenn Beck gets numbers on Social Security and life expectancy correct http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/rulings%2Ftom-true.gif Share this story: <iframe src="http://www.facebook.com/plugins/like.php?href=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/mar/08/glenn-beck/Glenn-Beck-Social-Security-life-expectancy/&layout=button_count&show_faces=false&width=200&action=recommend&font=lucida+grande&colorscheme=light&height=21" style="border: medium none; overflow: hidden; width: 200px; height: 21px;" allowtransparency="true" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>
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To show that Social Security today is not what President Franklin Roosevelt intended when he signed it into law in 1935, talk show host Glenn Beck claimed that its creators may have designed it so many people would not live long enough to receive the benefits.

"When Social Security started, age expectancy for the average man was 58. It was 62 for women," said Beck. "Wait a minute, when did benefits come in? At 65."

His point was that Social Security was not meant to benefit as many people as it does today. Indeed, Beck went on to say that if Roosevelt had passed the law now, the starting age would be around 80 years old, due to longer life expectancy.

We wondered if Beck was right about life expectancy in the 1930s.

Indeed, he was correct. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, a federal agency that tracks birth and death data, says that a man born in 1935, on average, lived until he was 60; a woman typically lived until she was 64. So Beck's claims of 58 and 62 were just off slightly. And Beck was correct that an average person would die before Social Security took effect.
What about Beck's implication that the age was chosen purposefully so that the majority of Americans would never recieve their Social Security benefits? Was FDR making this calculation?

Probably not, said Edward Berkowitz, a professor on Public Policy at the George Washington University and author of several books on Social Security. "I think that the age was chosen somewhat at random, certainly not to hedge actuarial bets."

Berkowitz thought that an alternative explanation for the age choice was that the Germans had a similar program that the Americans used as a model. Berkowitz also pointed out that the median age might not reflect real life expectancy because the number was skewed by a large share of infant deaths. "After you survive infancy, life expectancy goes up."

Of course, we can't be sure what FDR was thinking, but for our purposes, Beck's statement is off by just a couple of years and his overall point is right that life expectancy was below the retirement age of 65. That's close enough to earn a True.

[fj1200]

I am not talking about double dipping. Which should not be allowed. I am talking about people who work for 30-40 years or so and then expect to be able to retire.
There are some silver spoon a-holes who want the retirement age pushed back to 80.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-03/aig-chief-sees-retirement-age-as-high-as-80-after-crisis.html


“Retirement ages will have to move to 70, 80 years old,” Benmosche, who turned 68 last week, said during a weekend interview at his seaside villa in Dubrovnik, Croatia. “That would make pensions, medical services more affordable. They will keep people working longer and will take that burden off of the youth.”

:rolleyes: Hmm, maybe he thinks the programs should just be sustainable. Why should the young pay the old for 20+ years?

[Kathianne]

Why only public employee pensions? Why not other pensions, like those of the military?
If you pay into a pension account for a number of years, shouldn't you be able to get it back?

I'm not going to disagree with you here. An 18 year old out of high school, or a 21 year old out of university enters the military. They serve 20+ years. They then enter government service in another role, putting in another 20 years. Let's see, one is 58, the other 61, assuming no changes in education or rank per se. The older one made way more and has more 2 pensions. The younger, still very comfortable.

Neither served a day or 2 for a very generous pension.

[gabosaurus]

It doesn't matter how old you live. The effects of aging still occur at the same time. More 70-plus adults working is more 70-plus adults you are going to get stuck behind on the road. :eek:

I would rather limit the size of "golden parachutes" in the private sector. That is where the abuse comes in.

EVERYONE should get a change to get back what they put in. If you work 20 years in one job and 20 years in another job, and pay into both pension accounts the entire time, why shouldn't you get a return from both?

[ConHog]

It doesn't matter how old you live. The effects of aging still occur at the same time. More 70-plus adults working is more 70-plus adults you are going to get stuck behind on the road. :eek:

I would rather limit the size of "golden parachutes" in the private sector. That is where the abuse comes in.

EVERYONE should get a change to get back what they put in. If you work 20 years in one job and 20 years in another job, and pay into both pension accounts the entire time, why shouldn't you get a return from both?

No offense, but if someone is letting their company be "abused" by golden parachutes. I don't care unless I'm a stock holder in said company. I am a stock holder in the government. So I care.

[Kathianne]

It doesn't matter how old you live. The effects of aging still occur at the same time. More 70-plus adults working is more 70-plus adults you are going to get stuck behind on the road. :eek:

I would rather limit the size of "golden parachutes" in the private sector. That is where the abuse comes in.

EVERYONE should get a change to get back what they put in. If you work 20 years in one job and 20 years in another job, and pay into both pension accounts the entire time, why shouldn't you get a return from both?

Sorry Gabby, it's not just the age of death that has been rising, it's also the less stress factor on body and mind. Take a real hard look at folks in a rural based economy in 2nd, much less 3rd world. Our 60 year olds look like their 35 year olds. They are for the most part. Many predisposed towards heart/stroke problem, well under control by 50. It's not a joke. Our work force is going to have to make way for folks working to 70 or older. This will help social security adjustments and will keep folks more productive.